For defense, Giants had the 6th highest QB hits last season, 14th highest pressure rate but was only 22nd in sacks.
Our top 3 in pressures was Markus Golden (44 in 16 games), Lorenzo Carter (22 in 15 games) and Leonard Williams (17 in 8 games).
One thing I found interesting comparing Leonard Williams and Cameron Heyward (who was a First Team All-Pro this year):
Since joining the Giants, Leonard Williams had more hurries, QB hits and pressures per game than Cameron Heyward. Of course the biggest difference is the 0.5 sacks vs 9 sacks.
If Leonard Williams could ever translate those pressures into sacks, we got ourselves a first-team all-pro capable here.
Heyward has a lot more help around him (not a coincidence Watt and Dupree also had good seasons) so pairing Williams with someone on the other side who is elite is vital. Not surprisingly his best season was his second year and him having both Wilkerson and Richardson. It isn't some great mystery why he's never been able to get his, there's never been much reason to worry about anyone else, sack leaders while he was on the Jets:
• 2015 - Wilkerson had 12
• 2016 - Him at 7, next had 4.5
• 2017 - Demario Davis, 5 (Richardson gone)
• 2018 - Jenkins and Anderson had 7
That makes Markus Golden the most productive OLB Williams has ever played next to. I don't think there's anyone in NY who wants Yannick more than Williams.
Jets have never had edge pass rushers that would take pressure off him. At the time of the trade he was the 8th most doubled interior lineman in the league. Tomlinson was 7th and even just that bit of help saw his pressure rate sky rocket as a Giant. Non coincidentally when Richardson and Wilkerson were on the DL with him is when he hit 7 sacks at age 22, then both were traded the last few years and things only got harder
Pressure, hurries and run defense still excellent. Still very young and in good health.
Resign him.
Put him with people that maintain their gaps and he should get more sacks. He clearly was shoving his many backwards on many plays.
Add a true edge rusher.
all would be good.
Awaiting how much this final deal is going to hurt. Hopefully LW "saved" his sacks for the future.
Add a true edge rusher.
all would be good.
Agreed. His impact on the DL was obvious. Sacks are not everything and he is not an edge rusher. I did not love the trade, but he is a young, high quality player and should be re-signed.
Add a true edge rusher.
all would be good.
Was he really that much of an improvement over B.J. Hill? Was he really worth the picks plus the money? Couldn't we have made the same upgrades re DB's and LB's, and added a true ER, without sacrificing any picks or reducing our options in free agency?
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If the DBs and lbers can cover a half second longer...
Add a true edge rusher.
all would be good.
Agreed. His impact on the DL was obvious. Sacks are not everything and he is not an edge rusher. I did not love the trade, but he is a young, high quality player and should be re-signed.
He most certainly had a positive impact. The middle looked stout. Perhaps the only strong unit on D second half last year.
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If the DBs and lbers can cover a half second longer...
Add a true edge rusher.
all would be good.
Was he really that much of an improvement over B.J. Hill? Was he really worth the picks plus the money? Couldn't we have made the same upgrades re DB's and LB's, and added a true ER, without sacrificing any picks or reducing our options in free agency?
I'll admit to being surprised by this trade.
He is an upgrade to Hill, but Hill is now a good rotational player.
I didn't mind the picks being traded, but thought he would have been signed quickly. But no matter what money would be spent. What do you really expect from a 3rd or 4th pick that you couldn't trade them for a starting DE/DT. Hill is one of the few decent 3rd round picks they have made recently.
Yes in my mind it is a bit of a strange trade unless he signs and plays extremely well. But trades and drafts are a crap shot.
Whether you think the trade was a solid move or an unwise decision, any reasonable take should be he made the defense better
a) forcing the QB out of the pocket (potentially into the arms of a teammate).
b) forcing him to throw the ball away.
c) forcing him to make an ill-advised throw (potential INT).
d) forcing him off-script.
...granted there still remains the chance for the QB to make a positive play, but pressuring the QB is still a very good thing.
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If the DBs and lbers can cover a half second longer...
Add a true edge rusher.
all would be good.
Was he really that much of an improvement over B.J. Hill?
Yes he was and significantly so and he might prove to be even more valuable this year with the talk about the Giants being multiple on defense. Williams can play the 3, the 5 and the shade...
Defense is about how the pieces fit together.. not just the individual pieces themselves..
How many times have you heard LT say.. I was able to do what I could because I had Carl Banks on the other side.. Williams elevated the defensive line play.. period..
Jets were 1-6 with him,giving up 27 points per game and 6-3 without him, giving up 19 points per game.
And the Jets, not the Giants, have the 68th pick in the 2020 draft.
Once Leonard Williams agent sees what others are getting his asking price will go up. I hope that the Giants franchise him unless they can get him to sign a 3-4 year deal for around $11-12 million annually.
Dalvin Tomlinson’s play improved significantly once Williams arrived.
Hate to be "one of those" but is this at all something worthy of noting in connection with this defense?
We've heard similar labels tossed around on this site before. Jon Beason was immediately the best LB the Giants had when he was traded here in 2013. That's some guy in exchange for a 7th round pick, lol.
I remember hearing Justin Pugh was our best offensive lineman for years. Yeah...
Jets were 1-6 with him,giving up 27 points per game and 6-3 without him, giving up 19 points per game.
And the Jets, not the Giants, have the 68th pick in the 2020 draft.
You conveniently left out that the Jets were starting their 2nd and 3rd string QB’s when Williams was on the team.
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He arguably became the best player on the defense the minute he signed.
Hate to be "one of those" but is this at all something worthy of noting in connection with this defense?
We've heard similar labels tossed around on this site before. Jon Beason was immediately the best LB the Giants had when he was traded here in 2013. That's some guy in exchange for a 7th round pick, lol.
I remember hearing Justin Pugh was our best offensive lineman for years. Yeah...
Pugh was pretty good except for the injuries and the fact they kept moving him around.
You conveniently left out that the Jets were starting their 2nd and 3rd string QB’s when Williams was on the team.
I gave the points per yielded; QBs don't play D.
Not all pressures are equal. It's one thing if the pressure effects the throw, but there have been plenty of pressures that have come after the QB has had time to scan the field.
If you visit NFL Next Gen Stats, they have a "Time to Throw" stat in which it measures and averages each QBs time from snap to throw for each game.
If you look at the Giants' opponents, the splits for each QB from when they played the Giants with and without Leonard Williams was not demonstrably different. QBs that usually throw quickly still threw quickly and QBs that usually hold on to the ball were still able to hold on to the ball.
In fact, Carson Wentz and Aaron Rodgers both held on to the ball longer vs the Giants (and all games were when the Giants had Leonard Williams) than they usually did in most of their other games.
I do think Williams is a good player. I just wouldn't put so much stock in the pressures angle.
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You conveniently left out that the Jets were starting their 2nd and 3rd string QB’s when Williams was on the team.
I gave the points per yielded; QBs don't play D.
But you also said they were 6-3 after he left vs 1-6 before..
This defense is super young! Mostly on thier rookie contract....
Getting a young leader. Who wants to be great and plays the right way and seems to be a great locker room guy!
Arguably, the best player on the D.
What is there not to like about this player?
We need to sign him.
Losing draft picks hurt, but entire team can not be "rookies".
Williams is a good, not great player. He should not be the jewel or focus of UFA.
I'd like the Giants to transition tag him, and spend the first crucial 7-10 days in UFA on landing a better player.
Judge and Graham have been in the AFC East, they know him plenty well. It'll be obvious what they think soon enough.
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and 2-6 with him,giving up 29 points per game.
Jets were 1-6 with him,giving up 27 points per game and 6-3 without him, giving up 19 points per game.
And the Jets, not the Giants, have the 68th pick in the 2020 draft.
You conveniently left out that the Jets were starting their 2nd and 3rd string QB’s when Williams was on the team.
Ok , but the Jets defense improved greatly when he left. 27 points to 19 points after he was traded. I believe their run defense even improved. This guy is not an impact player period. Pressures are good against a non mobile Qb , but there arent too many left in todays Nfl. I would rather cut my losses let him walk and maybe get a 3rd or 4th rd comp pick in '21.
Completely agree, but the question is whether you would pay premium funds for someone like that.
The Giants have Dalvin Tomlinson, who had only 14 pressures (but converted 4 of them into sacks) and Dexter Lawrence who as a rookie had 30 pressures in 16 games (or only slightly lower rate than Williams).
$15 million per year can go towards more pressing needs. I'd rather sign an elite LB like Corey Littleton for $12 mill/yr or an elite FS like Justin Simmons for that $15 million year. Better yet, how about giving that money to Arik Armstead who had a boatload of pressures and 10 sacks and who can play both 3-4 DE and as a 3 technique in an even front?
There's plenty of better decisions that I think the Giants could make than paying a good player that will be part of a rotation $15 million per year.
This defense is super young! Mostly on thier rookie contract....
Getting a young leader. Who wants to be great and plays the right way and seems to be a great locker room guy!
Arguably, the best player on the D.
What is there not to like about this player?
We need to sign him.
Losing draft picks hurt, but entire team can not be "rookies".
Yes, Hill, because that's what this move was all about, replacing B.J. Hill with Leonard Williams.
Was Hill a disappointment last year? Yes, but so was every second-year player, which leads me to believe that much of that had to do with scheme and coaching. It certainly wasn't a reason to panic and make a trade for a player who could have been acquired in free agency in 2020.
I don't care what kind of a "guy" Williams is - I care about what kind of player he is, and to me he's Chris Canty with two good eyes. Good player, but not a difference-maker. Not a player that opposing offenses absolutely must account for. And not a player worth what it cost to get him, or worth what it's going to cost to keep him.
I view LW as a better player whose best football is in front of him.
Not you, but no one realize how young he is.....basically the same age of Hill and Tomilson
No one really argues about the type of player LW is - he almost gets there a lot and always has and probably will only ever be what he always has been. A guy that almost gets there. Do a lot NFL teams build around guys that are almost really good?
What cracks me up are he guys who write that all LW needs is a great defense around him and then he’ll be great. I think the LW trade is some sort of football IQ test.
Jets were 1-6 with him,giving up 27 points per game and 6-3 without him, giving up 19 points per game.
And the Jets, not the Giants, have the 68th pick in the 2020 draft.
I did this exercise a few weeks ago and the excuse makers, as expected, made excuses saying the reasons for these blatant differences were more "nuanced".
Look, LW is Mr. Almost. He almost sacks the QB, he almost makes a tackles for a loss, he also makes a tackle, he almost knocks down a pass, etc, etc.
And now we're very likely to dole out a material portion of the cap for a guy who almost makes plays...
Jets fans. So logical, well learned and open minded.
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In comment 14816622 shyster said:
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and 2-6 with him,giving up 29 points per game.
Jets were 1-6 with him,giving up 27 points per game and 6-3 without him, giving up 19 points per game.
And the Jets, not the Giants, have the 68th pick in the 2020 draft.
You conveniently left out that the Jets were starting their 2nd and 3rd string QB’s when Williams was on the team.
Ok , but the Jets defense improved greatly when he left. 27 points to 19 points after he was traded. I believe their run defense even improved. This guy is not an impact player period. Pressures are good against a non mobile Qb , but there arent too many left in todays Nfl. I would rather cut my losses let him walk and maybe get a 3rd or 4th rd comp pick in '21.
Guy by the name of Adams had more to do with that..LW was not holding their defense back. They could have benched him earlier if he was the reason. Plus maybe the fact that their offense improved after Darnold came back and they were not 3 and out all game with the defense on the field 35 min per game may have helped???
Pressure, hurries and run defense still excellent. Still very young and in good health.
Resign him.
I agree. I get the trade being “iffy” but having this guy on the roster is a plus.
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and 2-6 with him,giving up 29 points per game.
Jets were 1-6 with him,giving up 27 points per game and 6-3 without him, giving up 19 points per game.
And the Jets, not the Giants, have the 68th pick in the 2020 draft.
I did this exercise a few weeks ago and the excuse makers, as expected, made excuses saying the reasons for these blatant differences were more "nuanced".
Look, LW is Mr. Almost. He almost sacks the QB, he almost makes a tackles for a loss, he also makes a tackle, he almost knocks down a pass, etc, etc.
And now we're very likely to dole out a material portion of the cap for a guy who almost makes plays...
Your analysis is as unreliable as they come. Have you ever noticed that your point of view on any given topic is that the Giants did the wrong thing, or the Giant player sucks?
It's called confirmation bias. Your established view is that everything g is a look ways wrong so you will find evidence in everything and disregard anything positive to confirm your own biased view to yourself.
The worst part is that you lack all self awareness and position yourself as an expert.
You're terps 2.0
If he covets that long term security kick back some cash and have it put in the contract as sack escalators. Shouldn't be a problem for him if he's confident in his ability to improve.
$12M AAV base deal
Bonus structure-
5 sacks- $500K
10 sacks- $1M
each additional sack- $100K
Done deal.
It's called confirmation bias. Your established view is that everything g is a look ways wrong so you will find evidence in everything and disregard anything positive to confirm your own biased view to yourself.
The worst part is that you lack all self awareness and position yourself as an expert.
You're terps 2.0
I freely admit I don't trust much with Gettleman. I didn't like his hiring, based less on merit and more on once being a member of the Jints Central establishment, and struggle to see much difference between his work and the work of his predecessor. So I absolutely scrutinize every single move. Guilty.
But are you suggesting that the acquisition of LW is a no-brainer and any criticism is unwarranted?
Love this take.
Are you sure it wasn't Daniel Jones that cost us Chase Young instead? After all, did he really have to go out and win his first two starts. What a selfish player.
HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA