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Giants relieve two scouts of their duties

Anakim : 2/24/2020 1:11 pm
Neil Stratton
@InsideTheLeague

The #Giants have released two veteran area scouts, Ryan Jones and Donnie Etheridge. Jones had spent 20 years with the @Giants, joining the team in '00, while Etheridge was with the team 19 years, arriving one year later. May not be the last changes in personnel staff.
Link - ( New Window )
Shit rolls downhill  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 2/24/2020 1:15 pm : link
Meanwhile Chris Mara is preparing hard for the Kentucky Der... I mean draft.
Judge  
JonC : 2/24/2020 1:15 pm : link
digging deep and rendering verdicts.
RE: Judge  
jcn56 : 2/24/2020 1:17 pm : link
In comment 14817530 JonC said:
Quote:
digging deep and rendering verdicts.


I really hope so - this is the one unit inside the Giants that has remained largely unaffected since the swoon started almost a decade ago.
Feb 24...a bit late for this.  
LBH15 : 2/24/2020 1:18 pm : link
I wonder who's opinion got this done?
I think it’s DG and Petit, but why give DG credit?  
yatqb : 2/24/2020 1:18 pm : link
.
this  
broadbandz : 2/24/2020 1:19 pm : link
is the first sign I've got that Judge is different. He's sniffing out all the rotten apples in the org. Thank god.
RE: RE: Judge  
johnnyb : 2/24/2020 1:19 pm : link
In comment 14817533 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14817530 JonC said:


Quote:


digging deep and rendering verdicts.



I really hope so - this is the one unit inside the Giants that has remained largely unaffected since the swoon started almost a decade ago.


Well, Marc Ross being fired was a great start but the changes stalled after that.
I have no clue who either gentleman is  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 2/24/2020 1:20 pm : link
So I have no opinion on this move.
'JonC: Judge digging deep and rendering verdicts.'  
Torrag : 2/24/2020 1:23 pm : link
Judge...verdicts.

I see what you did there sir. /tips the cap
Is this really Judge?  
bw in dc : 2/24/2020 1:23 pm : link
I honestly can't imagine Judge having the gravitas at this point to make these decisions.

Maybe he's a quick study, but the way Jints Central is organized, I have a difficult time thinking this is Judge's call...
Does the HC have say on scouts?  
81_Great_Dane : 2/24/2020 1:26 pm : link
I would assume this is DG and ownership evaluating the personnel team and churning the least-productive employees. Which they should, given the number of bad drafts over the last 20 years.

I'm sure that the message has come down from ownership that nobody should be comfortable as long as the team is a mess.
If the Head Coach is firing scouts  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/24/2020 1:30 pm : link
Then the head coach runs the football side, not the GM. Scouts are the GMs department.
Smart  
pjcas18 : 2/24/2020 1:31 pm : link
I hate the philosophy you're stuck with scouts, GM, personnel guys, until after the draft.
RE: RE: RE: Judge  
jcn56 : 2/24/2020 1:32 pm : link
In comment 14817541 johnnyb said:
Quote:

Well, Marc Ross being fired was a great start but the changes stalled after that.


The rumors that came out after the firing was that Ross was lazy, and that Reese had become hands off. The drafting after they were dismissed didn't improve by a whole lot (especially when you adjust for draft position being much higher). There were more changes needed.
RE: Is this really Judge?  
jcn56 : 2/24/2020 1:33 pm : link
In comment 14817551 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I honestly can't imagine Judge having the gravitas at this point to make these decisions.

Maybe he's a quick study, but the way Jints Central is organized, I have a difficult time thinking this is Judge's call...


Judge went to work self-scouting - doesn't it stand to reason that the output of that might drive changes to the scouting department?

I wouldn't think a new HC would have that control either, but if Mara was really dedicated towards turning the franchise around, he was going to have to listen to a new voice in that room. Maybe Judge came on with that mandate.
It's heartening to hear they are evaluating everyone and everything...  
Torrag : 2/24/2020 1:35 pm : link
Term of service should have no bearing on your employment in a results based business.
Excellent.  
Dave in Hoboken : 2/24/2020 1:37 pm : link
Hopefully more are on the way.
I believe Judge is a big catalyst for change  
JonC : 2/24/2020 1:40 pm : link
and if he's delivering self-scouting feedback including some scouts aren't delivering talent, it should be listened to as part of a decision factor.
.  
Bill2 : 2/24/2020 1:40 pm : link
How is "Jints Central" organized? How fast is that changing?

Im not talking org chart. Im talking decision rights and decision influencers.

We don't have a clue is the right answer.
Maybe leading up to this combine  
NY-Fan : 2/24/2020 1:42 pm : link
The organization realized that these 2 were not prepared so they let them go. If Judge & DG are digging in along with others and some aren’t pulling their weight then people get let go.
We had an asshat  
Matt in SGS : 2/24/2020 1:43 pm : link
post last year prior to the draft from someone who knew a scout and they mentioned how the Giants were very high on Jones and he checked all the boxes, and there were concerns about Haskins and his body type/weight gain as he got older. There was some other info in there which could indicate who the scout was so the poster deleted the post but it was up there for a little while. But I wondered at the time if anyone on the Giants saw it (we know they read BBI). I hope that wasn't the case here.
Here’s the scouting structure they announced 2 years ago ...  
Spider56 : 2/24/2020 1:48 pm : link
Area scouts for the SW and NE ... not where the real talent is.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Is this really Judge?  
bw in dc : 2/24/2020 1:57 pm : link
In comment 14817569 jcn56 said:
Quote:


I wouldn't think a new HC would have that control either, but if Mara was really dedicated towards turning the franchise around, he was going to have to listen to a new voice in that room. Maybe Judge came on with that mandate.


If true, and I'm all for it, sounds like a real breakthrough in how business is conducted. Hopefully we hear more about this so we know what drove this. I find this very interesting...
Judge  
Bill2 : 2/24/2020 2:17 pm : link
works long and intense hours. And drives enough questions, uses enough metrics and schedules enough weekly reviews to bring many others throughout the organization to the same level. The jump in performance expectations is welcome by many and an adjustment for others

He not only works long hours but also tight, focused, very process and schedule oriented hours and is very pointed per hour and per person. Listens to those who match the pace. Hits the ball over the net and expects it to come back at the same pace.

Is a major detail and data hog. And lastly, is very matter of fact direct in calling things very good, good, bad and indifferent.

The net effect is a new level and tougher to match pace and performance expectation throughout the building.

Imo, churn from those who cant keep up might be something we see for a year or two.

PS: Graham is the same

PPS: imo, process change and pace, not structure change, is what matters most in making organizational performance jumps.
Matt  
fkap : 2/24/2020 2:18 pm : link
IMO, if they saw loose lips last year and were looking to take action, the action would have been last year, before the whole scouting cycle started again.
Doesn't matter  
micky : 2/24/2020 2:22 pm : link
Chris Mara has final say in everything..
I'm guessing there's a few phases to  
fkap : 2/24/2020 2:24 pm : link
the scouting cycle, one of them being scouting during the college season. Perhaps the effort/conclusions from these two didn't measure up, so they're gone before the combine phase.
isn't Mara  
fkap : 2/24/2020 2:29 pm : link
the pro side of the scouting, and a much lesser voice on the college side?
It's one of the reasons it wasn't all that big a deal (aside from PR) that he went to the derby on draft day.
I tend to agree ..regarding Judge  
mpinmaine : 2/24/2020 2:30 pm : link
No surprise as what we do know currently and have seen up to now tells me he has a powerful impact on any and almost all of the football operations staff...MO
Re: isn't Mara  
Aaron Thomas : 2/24/2020 2:50 pm : link
FKap, I believe your statement is true about Mara but that will never stop some on here to use him as a whipping boy, Does anyone on here know for a fact that Chris Mara has been a problem. Probably not. One person says it here, others pick it up now it's fact.
RE: Here’s the scouting structure they announced 2 years ago ...  
bw in dc : 2/24/2020 2:50 pm : link
In comment 14817599 Spider56 said:
Quote:
Area scouts for the SW and NE ... not where the real talent is. Link - ( New Window )


Good link to remind how DG was setting the table.

Perhaps the move was simply a matter of consolidating territories...
RE: Judge  
BrettNYG10 : 2/24/2020 2:52 pm : link
In comment 14817642 Bill2 said:
Quote:
works long and intense hours. And drives enough questions, uses enough metrics and schedules enough weekly reviews to bring many others throughout the organization to the same level. The jump in performance expectations is welcome by many and an adjustment for others

He not only works long hours but also tight, focused, very process and schedule oriented hours and is very pointed per hour and per person. Listens to those who match the pace. Hits the ball over the net and expects it to come back at the same pace.

Is a major detail and data hog. And lastly, is very matter of fact direct in calling things very good, good, bad and indifferent.

The net effect is a new level and tougher to match pace and performance expectation throughout the building.

Imo, churn from those who cant keep up might be something we see for a year or two.

PS: Graham is the same

PPS: imo, process change and pace, not structure change, is what matters most in making organizational performance jumps.


This makes me very excited.
These must be the scouts that recommended  
Simms11 : 2/24/2020 2:54 pm : link
Flowers and Apple!😜
Is any of those  
GiantsBRFan2 : 2/24/2020 2:59 pm : link
The scout that goes to Elon just because of the candy like they showed a few years ago in that documentary?
RE: Judge  
Mattman : 2/24/2020 2:59 pm : link
In comment 14817642 Bill2 said:
Quote:
works long and intense hours. And drives enough questions, uses enough metrics and schedules enough weekly reviews to bring many others throughout the organization to the same level. The jump in performance expectations is welcome by many and an adjustment for others

He not only works long hours but also tight, focused, very process and schedule oriented hours and is very pointed per hour and per person. Listens to those who match the pace. Hits the ball over the net and expects it to come back at the same pace.

Is a major detail and data hog. And lastly, is very matter of fact direct in calling things very good, good, bad and indifferent.

The net effect is a new level and tougher to match pace and performance expectation throughout the building.

Imo, churn from those who cant keep up might be something we see for a year or two.

PS: Graham is the same

PPS: imo, process change and pace, not structure change, is what matters most in making organizational performance jumps.


I always appreciate your take Bill. Judge reminds me of two people, the gm where I work and another manager that came on more recently. The gm brought in a lot of ci in the Toyota model. The manager has become a close friend and I’ve learned a lot as he revamped his group to a higher performance team. Listening to him talk about management theory reminds me of you
Mattman  
Bill2 : 2/24/2020 3:04 pm : link
Only the item labeled "imo" is my take. The rest is an unadulterated composite from first and second hand folks.

PS: Hope you are well my friend and find time to post again
RE: Judge  
darren in pdx : 2/24/2020 3:07 pm : link
In comment 14817642 Bill2 said:
Quote:
works long and intense hours. And drives enough questions, uses enough metrics and schedules enough weekly reviews to bring many others throughout the organization to the same level. The jump in performance expectations is welcome by many and an adjustment for others

He not only works long hours but also tight, focused, very process and schedule oriented hours and is very pointed per hour and per person. Listens to those who match the pace. Hits the ball over the net and expects it to come back at the same pace.

Is a major detail and data hog. And lastly, is very matter of fact direct in calling things very good, good, bad and indifferent.

The net effect is a new level and tougher to match pace and performance expectation throughout the building.

Imo, churn from those who cant keep up might be something we see for a year or two.

PS: Graham is the same

PPS: imo, process change and pace, not structure change, is what matters most in making organizational performance jumps.


Is this based on your opinion of Judge or someone that works with Judge has told you? But I agree, structure change isn't going to do much of anything if the people in charge aren't capable of making improvements.
I would think one could use metrics to rank all of the scouts  
ZogZerg : 2/24/2020 3:07 pm : link
What players did they like?, How how did they rank them? What players didn't they like?, reasons, etc. And compare to how these players turned out as NFL players. I would think you could look at this stuff over to get an idea of who is hitting on guys and who isn't. It really doesn't matter if the Giants drafted them or not.
But, I have no idea how scouting works.
RE: Mattman  
darren in pdx : 2/24/2020 3:09 pm : link
In comment 14817721 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Only the item labeled "imo" is my take. The rest is an unadulterated composite from first and second hand folks.

PS: Hope you are well my friend and find time to post again


Disregard my last post asking. Sounds good, seems like he absorbed a lot of Belichek's qualities during his time there.
eh  
Bill2 : 2/24/2020 3:18 pm : link
that all said, the world is full of situations where the leading process indicators of working hard and smart does not translate into the lag indicators of wins and losses.

even talented coaching working with below average raw talent still might produce only a little more than the raw talent
RE: I believe Judge is a big catalyst for change  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/24/2020 3:26 pm : link
In comment 14817580 JonC said:
Quote:
and if he's delivering self-scouting feedback including some scouts aren't delivering talent, it should be listened to as part of a decision factor.


How do you imagine one rates a scout? I doubt that there is a log book somewhere in the building that indicates what scout had what opinion on what player. It seems odd that Judge would be able to discern which scouts were or were not "delivering talent".
Or maybe there was a meeting this weekend  
LBH15 : 2/24/2020 3:28 pm : link
and two scouts decided to skip it.

So they were canned.
RE: Or maybe there was a meeting this weekend  
Spider56 : 2/24/2020 3:34 pm : link
In comment 14817775 LBH15 said:
Quote:
and two scouts decided to skip it.

So they were canned.


Good thought ... or maybe they showed up unprepared to what was set as expectations. I could definitely see this happening. 20 year guys following outdated guidelines or thinking they can get by on their past laurels.
RE: 'JonC: Judge digging deep and rendering verdicts.'  
flycatcher : 2/24/2020 3:45 pm : link
In comment 14817549 Torrag said:
Quote:
Judge...verdicts.

I see what you did there sir. /tips the cap

Meanwhile  
BobsYourUncle : 2/24/2020 3:49 pm : link
Chris Mara is still pounding the table for Davis Webb.
RE: RE: I believe Judge is a big catalyst for change  
jcn56 : 2/24/2020 3:51 pm : link
In comment 14817768 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14817580 JonC said:


Quote:


and if he's delivering self-scouting feedback including some scouts aren't delivering talent, it should be listened to as part of a decision factor.



How do you imagine one rates a scout? I doubt that there is a log book somewhere in the building that indicates what scout had what opinion on what player. It seems odd that Judge would be able to discern which scouts were or were not "delivering talent".


Don't you think it would be negligence at least, incompetence more likely, if the Giants didn't keep scouting records for some period of time?

They scout a large volume of players at the college level, guys who they might draft or sign years down the road as a FA or waiver wire pickup. Wouldn't this scouting information be useful (and built upon when the players moved from the college to pro level)?

I would hope they kept that info, and that's how they grade their scouts. Pretty simple - how accurately did you predict the career trajectory of players, whether the Giants drafted them or they went elsewhere?
RE: RE: I believe Judge is a big catalyst for change  
JonC : 2/24/2020 3:54 pm : link
In comment 14817768 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14817580 JonC said:


Quote:


and if he's delivering self-scouting feedback including some scouts aren't delivering talent, it should be listened to as part of a decision factor.



How do you imagine one rates a scout? I doubt that there is a log book somewhere in the building that indicates what scout had what opinion on what player. It seems odd that Judge would be able to discern which scouts were or were not "delivering talent".


Providing their breakdown and opinion on players is their exact job. Because they're regional they're often the only scout who watches them in live action, and they bring written valuations back to NJ. I would think there's absolutely some fixed tracking system of data. After 20 years, I would think their superiors would have a feel for their production.

And, if not ... then it sure sounds like another area where NYG has poorly self-scouted and failed to build necessary data systems.
RE: Is any of those  
Chris in Philly : 2/24/2020 3:56 pm : link
In comment 14817711 GiantsBRFan2 said:
Quote:
The scout that goes to Elon just because of the candy like they showed a few years ago in that documentary?


He was already retired...
I was at a private player workout many years ago  
Reale01 : 2/24/2020 4:27 pm : link
A free agent punter. The Patriots (Parcells era) sent three people. The area scout and two assistants. The were all dressed exactly the same. Military haircuts in reasonably good shape. No wasted words or time. 60 minutes done. Thank you for meeting with us. We will be in touch.

You could tell they had their s#@$ together.
Didn't Mara note that they're creating a proprietary computer  
yatqb : 2/24/2020 4:35 pm : link
system regarding scouting?
eh  
Bill2 : 2/24/2020 4:57 pm : link
we don't know.

Could be expense report rules kinda stuff

Could be all scouts needed to fill in the requested metrics and statistics and break down film. And these guys turned in qualitative eye ball based stuff ( and submitted comparisons to some NFl player)that worked in 2000 but not these days.

Could be they consolidated territories so they could have more scouts in the SEC and the Big Ten and PAC 10.

Most companies never tell why...opens them up to lawsuits. Many companies say nice things and regrets and announce consolidations/re0organization to put lipstick on performance issues.

Doubt we will ever know



25%  
RAIN : 2/24/2020 6:04 pm : link
Gone. That’s fairly big news.
Were the 2 computer guys in on this decision?  
The_Boss : 2/24/2020 6:21 pm : link
-
Some recent North East draftee busts that come to mind:  
sb from NYT Forum : 2/24/2020 6:23 pm : link
Jay Bromley - 3rd rd
Andre Williams - 4th rd
Ryan Nassib - 4th rd

Also Bisnowaty and Geremy Davis, but they were 6th rounders so it’s kinda hard to say they’re busts. They were useless though.

Really the only NE players that stand out are Saquon and Pugh. And I am guessing the front office doesn’t rely on area scouts as much for first round picks.
at the presser announcing Shurmur was gone  
BigBlueCane : 2/24/2020 7:23 pm : link
Mara did mention there would be some scouting changes.

CFB has changed dramatically in the past 5-7 years, its past time the Giants and the rest of the NFL to do likewise.
RE: RE: Judge  
djm : 2/24/2020 7:46 pm : link
In comment 14817698 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 14817642 Bill2 said:


Quote:


works long and intense hours. And drives enough questions, uses enough metrics and schedules enough weekly reviews to bring many others throughout the organization to the same level. The jump in performance expectations is welcome by many and an adjustment for others

He not only works long hours but also tight, focused, very process and schedule oriented hours and is very pointed per hour and per person. Listens to those who match the pace. Hits the ball over the net and expects it to come back at the same pace.

Is a major detail and data hog. And lastly, is very matter of fact direct in calling things very good, good, bad and indifferent.

The net effect is a new level and tougher to match pace and performance expectation throughout the building.

Imo, churn from those who cant keep up might be something we see for a year or two.

PS: Graham is the same

PPS: imo, process change and pace, not structure change, is what matters most in making organizational performance jumps.



This makes me very excited.


Me too but I am a bit shell shocked with this franchise. This does feel different and I never liked shurmur, but we need to see it first.
RE: Is this really Judge?  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 2/24/2020 8:48 pm : link
In comment 14817551 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I honestly can't imagine Judge having the gravitas at this point to make these decisions.

Maybe he's a quick study, but the way Jints Central is organized, I have a difficult time thinking this is Judge's call...



lol

When I can peg what you're going to say before you say it you aren't doing much deductive reasoning based on evidence.
I have a hard time believing that Judge can influence the career of 2  
Ivan15 : 2/24/2020 9:44 pm : link
Long term employees who are at a pretty low level in the personnel department. More likely, it took DG 2 years to set up the structure he wants and identify the scouts who fit it. Maybe these guys no longer fit the structure.
I think it is Judge  
Vanzetti : 2/24/2020 11:46 pm : link
But I think it is also Mara being open to reconsidering
How they do business at Jints Central

Five years ago this would not have happened
i think one of them  
Platos : 2/25/2020 12:13 am : link
is getting a job at penn state
It smells  
Joey in VA : 2/25/2020 6:57 am : link
Like old dogs not learning new tricks. If the data they are asked to compile pales in comparison to their peers because it's new to them, maybe they were given time to learn and adjust and failed.
This is from Paul Schwartz  
Joey in VA : 2/25/2020 7:07 am : link
From the article:
Gettlemen let go of Ryan Jones, who was with the Giants for 20 years, and Donnie Etheridge, who was with the team for the past 19 years.

Jones worked the northeast region and Etheridge worked with the southwest region, assignments given to them in 2018 when Gettleman took over.

This is an ongoing revamp by Gettleman, who changed the way the Giants rank players on their draft board, altered the way the scouts send in reports, promoted Chris Pettit to director of college scouting and hired specific personnel to help the organization upgrade its analytics department.


This provides a little more context, but I'm sure no one will notice or believe that DG upgraded the analytics department. Definitely worth a read.
Lonk - ( New Window )
RE: This is from Paul Schwartz  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/25/2020 7:47 am : link
In comment 14818158 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
From the article:
Gettlemen let go of Ryan Jones, who was with the Giants for 20 years, and Donnie Etheridge, who was with the team for the past 19 years.

Jones worked the northeast region and Etheridge worked with the southwest region, assignments given to them in 2018 when Gettleman took over.

This is an ongoing revamp by Gettleman, who changed the way the Giants rank players on their draft board, altered the way the scouts send in reports, promoted Chris Pettit to director of college scouting and hired specific personnel to help the organization upgrade its analytics department.

This provides a little more context, but I'm sure no one will notice or believe that DG upgraded the analytics department. Definitely worth a read. Lonk - ( New Window )

Why wouldn't anyone believe it? DG himself told us they hired four computer guys.

Besides, "hired... to help... upgrade" is not the same as "upgraded." Here's an example that might help you understand: Pat Shurmur was hired to help the organization upgrade its playoff chances. Did he actually do so? No, but that's what he was hired to do. Which is all that sentence says.

You're a stickler for the English language, aren't you? I'm surprised you can't see that nuance for yourself.
RE: RE: This is from Paul Schwartz  
Joey in VA : 2/25/2020 7:59 am : link
In comment 14818169 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14818158 Joey in VA said:


Quote:


From the article:
Gettlemen let go of Ryan Jones, who was with the Giants for 20 years, and Donnie Etheridge, who was with the team for the past 19 years.

Jones worked the northeast region and Etheridge worked with the southwest region, assignments given to them in 2018 when Gettleman took over.

This is an ongoing revamp by Gettleman, who changed the way the Giants rank players on their draft board, altered the way the scouts send in reports, promoted Chris Pettit to director of college scouting and hired specific personnel to help the organization upgrade its analytics department.

This provides a little more context, but I'm sure no one will notice or believe that DG upgraded the analytics department. Definitely worth a read. Lonk - ( New Window )


Why wouldn't anyone believe it? DG himself told us they hired four computer guys.

Besides, "hired... to help... upgrade" is not the same as "upgraded." Here's an example that might help you understand: Pat Shurmur was hired to help the organization upgrade its playoff chances. Did he actually do so? No, but that's what he was hired to do. Which is all that sentence says.

You're a stickler for the English language, aren't you? I'm surprised you can't see that nuance for yourself.
You're absolutely the worst poster here and that's a feat in itself. The common belief is that DG eschews analytics, hence my correct take and statement. I don't need any half wit like you telling me how to understand anything except how to be a blistering cunt wound.
Why do..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/25/2020 8:26 am : link
so many people dig in on the analytics discussion to try and act like Gettleman is clueless about them?

There has been more evidence lately that the Giants have done certain things with analytics in mind. Drafting DB's, for example.

It isn't the end of the world to actually backtrack on the idea he hates analytics and to give credit that he seemingly is implementing some analytic driven decisions.



RE: Why do..  
Big Blue '56 : 2/25/2020 8:33 am : link
In comment 14818193 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
so many people dig in on the analytics discussion to try and act like Gettleman is clueless about them?

There has been more evidence lately that the Giants have done certain things with analytics in mind. Drafting DB's, for example.

It isn't the end of the world to actually backtrack on the idea he hates analytics and to give credit that he seemingly is implementing some analytic driven decisions.

Why would any reasoned person not believe that a multi-billion dollar franchise would not have the latest of the latest? Where does this bullshit come from?


RE: Why do..  
Big Blue '56 : 2/25/2020 8:34 am : link
In comment 14818193 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
so many people dig in on the analytics discussion to try and act like Gettleman is clueless about them?

There has been more evidence lately that the Giants have done certain things with analytics in mind. Drafting DB's, for example.

It isn't the end of the world to actually backtrack on the idea he hates analytics and to give credit that he seemingly is implementing some analytic driven decisions.




Why would any reasoned person not believe that a multi-billion dollar franchise would not have the latest of the latest? Where does this bullshit come from?
RE: RE: Why do..  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/25/2020 8:37 am : link
In comment 14818202 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14818193 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


so many people dig in on the analytics discussion to try and act like Gettleman is clueless about them?

There has been more evidence lately that the Giants have done certain things with analytics in mind. Drafting DB's, for example.

It isn't the end of the world to actually backtrack on the idea he hates analytics and to give credit that he seemingly is implementing some analytic driven decisions.






Why would any reasoned person not believe that a multi-billion dollar franchise would not have the latest of the latest? Where does this bullshit come from?

Hahahahaha, good one, Fiddy!

They don't. And they've said so. Maybe that's where the bullshit comes from?
BB'56..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/25/2020 8:39 am : link
I still believe a lot of it comes from people taking Gettleman's comments and extrapolating them to mean he hates analytics.

It really was the genesis that caused the two loudest guys about analytics jump on the bandwagon to begin with. It wasn't just that Gettleman hated analytics, but it was stretched out to say that he didn't use them in Carolina and was doing nothing here.

when it was shown that he started the analytic department in Carolina, the focus then shifted to the qualifications of Siam and that the Giants are an organization that wasn't leaving an analytic "footprint".

It is like certain posters were so fixated on him poking fun at analytics that they just won't back down from the idea that he uses them.
RE: RE: RE: This is from Paul Schwartz  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/25/2020 8:40 am : link
In comment 14818175 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14818169 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 14818158 Joey in VA said:


Quote:


From the article:
Gettlemen let go of Ryan Jones, who was with the Giants for 20 years, and Donnie Etheridge, who was with the team for the past 19 years.

Jones worked the northeast region and Etheridge worked with the southwest region, assignments given to them in 2018 when Gettleman took over.

This is an ongoing revamp by Gettleman, who changed the way the Giants rank players on their draft board, altered the way the scouts send in reports, promoted Chris Pettit to director of college scouting and hired specific personnel to help the organization upgrade its analytics department.

This provides a little more context, but I'm sure no one will notice or believe that DG upgraded the analytics department. Definitely worth a read. Lonk - ( New Window )


Why wouldn't anyone believe it? DG himself told us they hired four computer guys.

Besides, "hired... to help... upgrade" is not the same as "upgraded." Here's an example that might help you understand: Pat Shurmur was hired to help the organization upgrade its playoff chances. Did he actually do so? No, but that's what he was hired to do. Which is all that sentence says.

You're a stickler for the English language, aren't you? I'm surprised you can't see that nuance for yourself.

You're absolutely the worst poster here and that's a feat in itself. The common belief is that DG eschews analytics, hence my correct take and statement. I don't need any half wit like you telling me how to understand anything except how to be a blistering cunt wound.

Oh, did I touch a nerve?

It wasn't even YOUR take, genius. You copied and posted someone else's take. Now why don't you get back to reshuffling the offensive line like it's a fucking video game, professor.
RE: BB'56..  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/25/2020 8:45 am : link
In comment 14818206 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I still believe a lot of it comes from people taking Gettleman's comments and extrapolating them to mean he hates analytics.

It really was the genesis that caused the two loudest guys about analytics jump on the bandwagon to begin with. It wasn't just that Gettleman hated analytics, but it was stretched out to say that he didn't use them in Carolina and was doing nothing here.

when it was shown that he started the analytic department in Carolina, the focus then shifted to the qualifications of Siam and that the Giants are an organization that wasn't leaving an analytic "footprint".

It is like certain posters were so fixated on him poking fun at analytics that they just won't back down from the idea that he uses them.

There's a very wide range of scenarios that live in between "Gettleman hates analytics" and "The Giants, as a multi-billion dollar organization, have the latest of the latest."

The truth is somewhere in between, and not particularly close to the latter, by their own admission. Further, you're as guilty of the sensationalism as you're accusing others of being. There's a big difference between hating analytics and not really being fully up-to-speed on the full utility of analytics and therefore not committing the necessary resources to even attempt to achieve best-in-class systems and processes.

I won't deny that there has been plenty of hyperbole thrown around in the analytics debates, but anyone who thinks the Giants are using analytics to their full capacity, or have even attempted to (though maybe that tide is shifting, finally), is being willfully naive about it simply because they want to believe the Giants are just as advanced as everyone else, or perhaps because they're not completely familiar with what other teams are doing to create an advantage in an environment where every rule is set up to minimize competitive advantage in the first place.
GD  
Bill2 : 2/25/2020 9:00 am : link
With all due respect (sincerely); if you knew, you would be pleased.

Over and out on the subject.

Plenty of other topics to analyze and debate

Take care
The hire of Amos Jones should be more than enough to convince  
gidiefor : Mod : 2/25/2020 9:01 am : link
anyone that the Giants believe in analytics.

I'm not sure how the press sourced the disbelief they've espoused in the Giants using analytics, and the corresponding sheeple that believe them. There is ample evidence that the Giants have staff that have been at the forefront of analytics in football before it was even recognized as some sort of mystic trend that only the cool teams use. But, no-o, the Giants have been losing at football for a spell, enough that the critics will throw up at the ceiling any idea they can latch onto that will seemingly stick - so that the Giants failure to use analytics has become one of them - whether it's true or not. And. accordingly, any defense that's mounted is seen as a weak effort to address the criticism.

Nevertheless - the new coaching regime embraces analytics. There is ample evidence of that too.

Chris Petit has had some amazing success as a scout, and he is now promoted and at the forefront of advancing the Giants new drafting criteria for the past two+ years, but of course the Giants have been losing so there's no way he uses analytics either.
I have never..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/25/2020 9:05 am : link
disagreed with this, so I'm not sure where the sensaltionalism comes in:

Quote:
The truth is somewhere in between, and not particularly close to the latter, by their own admission. Further, you're as guilty of the sensationalism as you're accusing others of being. There's a big difference between hating analytics and not really being fully up-to-speed on the full utility of analytics and therefore not committing the necessary resources to even attempt to achieve best-in-class systems and processes.


I've never said that the Giants are at the fore-front in using analytics. What I've continually pointed out is that they aren't ignoring analytics or dismissing them. Based on what I know, the Giants are in the middle of the pack - which is a far cry from the claims they are laggards and near the bottom.

It's also really difficult for me to accept certain arguments when they've begun with incorrect premises anyway. When I stepped into the analytics discussion originally, it was to refute the idea that Gettleman didn't use analytics in Carolina. I had first hand knowledge that he started the department. Were the Panthers cutting-edge? No. They still aren't today and they just recently brought in a Director of Analytics. But you had so-called analytics experts here opining that Gettleman didn't use analytics and were adamant about it.

There also were a lot of rants about Siam's qualifications and I pointed out that his background in healthcare reimbursement was an ideal fit for analytics(after mocking them for literally using his LinkedIn profile to determine his skills). Luckily, Bill2 strengthened that point and was listened to. I get that my style isn't going to get people to accept certain arguments, so I'm glad a poster like Bill2 was able to break through.

Show me where I've ever said the Giants or Gettleman are world-class or leading the charge in the NFL - because I can actually produce posts from others that have said Gettleman is doing nothing. The answer has always been in the middle.

You really should direct that to the supposed analytics "experts" here.
gidie  
Bill2 : 2/25/2020 9:09 am : link
I cant agree with that last post:

imo, dedication to Analytics (methods of applied math/CS) and rigorous investigation to make data driven decisions are two different things.

As is the most important thing: A management team thirsty for and dedicated to making well informed decisions sharply focused on finding differential advantage with all available data. The people who ask are the important factor. The techniques are fairly common place

The new team has many in the later camp rapidly changing the rigor that goes into decisions

Im now going to let the "chatter of experts" swamp reality.



RE: I have never..  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/25/2020 9:13 am : link
In comment 14818236 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
disagreed with this, so I'm not sure where the sensaltionalism comes in:



Quote:


The truth is somewhere in between, and not particularly close to the latter, by their own admission. Further, you're as guilty of the sensationalism as you're accusing others of being. There's a big difference between hating analytics and not really being fully up-to-speed on the full utility of analytics and therefore not committing the necessary resources to even attempt to achieve best-in-class systems and processes.



I've never said that the Giants are at the fore-front in using analytics. What I've continually pointed out is that they aren't ignoring analytics or dismissing them. Based on what I know, the Giants are in the middle of the pack - which is a far cry from the claims they are laggards and near the bottom.

It's also really difficult for me to accept certain arguments when they've begun with incorrect premises anyway. When I stepped into the analytics discussion originally, it was to refute the idea that Gettleman didn't use analytics in Carolina. I had first hand knowledge that he started the department. Were the Panthers cutting-edge? No. They still aren't today and they just recently brought in a Director of Analytics. But you had so-called analytics experts here opining that Gettleman didn't use analytics and were adamant about it.

There also were a lot of rants about Siam's qualifications and I pointed out that his background in healthcare reimbursement was an ideal fit for analytics(after mocking them for literally using his LinkedIn profile to determine his skills). Luckily, Bill2 strengthened that point and was listened to. I get that my style isn't going to get people to accept certain arguments, so I'm glad a poster like Bill2 was able to break through.

Show me where I've ever said the Giants or Gettleman are world-class or leading the charge in the NFL - because I can actually produce posts from others that have said Gettleman is doing nothing. The answer has always been in the middle.

You really should direct that to the supposed analytics "experts" here.

The cutting edge/latest of the latest was a reference to Fiddy's take, which presumes that simply because the Giants have access to tremendous resources from a financial perspective, that they must be using those resources, when we know that they're far from topping out what's available and nowhere near innovation (though we can hope that they aspire to do more and do better).

I have always found your take on Gettleman's use of analytics reasonable, even if I think you give him a bit too much credit for the limited use of analytics initially. Nominally using analytics in a very specific capacity is different from embracing a wholesale paradigm shift wherein data is actually valued as information and not just noise in the room while the grown-ups talk about what they see with their own two eyes.
Gist of these exchanges is  
ColHowPepper : 2/25/2020 9:14 am : link
that Giants are moving in the right direction. Proponents of 'both sides' acknowledging that truth lies somewhere in the middle.

With the upheaval of three changes of HC in the last four years (excluding '15), it would not be surprising that changes in approach to process are bumpy, slow and intermittent. It's also not surprising that with JJ there is more focus to accelerating the edges and directionality.

One player/position indicator, in my view, would be that EE no longer fills the role of traditional TE. He is not productive there, in the run game in particular.
Siam  
Bill2 : 2/25/2020 9:17 am : link
Siam was a football player and has Ivy League undergrad in Econometrics at an Ivy at the forefront of that. His grad at another Ivy was centered on econometric sorting and analysis of massive data bases so better health care policy decisions could be made.

He stated on projects for the NYG in 2014...before anyone on BBI used the word analysis or analytics.

Very smart people in the NFL office consider the average NFl team to have uneven strengths ( areas where they are advanced and areas where they are not) and the NYG generally above average...as of last year.

No NFL team is about to share where they are in the pursuit of competitive advantage and if they did you as a fan should be very upset.

Since we don't know and run the risk of really sounding stupid and proud of it ...why don't we all shut up and hope it translates in the future?

imo
RE: GD  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/25/2020 9:19 am : link
In comment 14818233 Bill2 said:
Quote:
With all due respect (sincerely); if you knew, you would be pleased.

Over and out on the subject.

Plenty of other topics to analyze and debate

Take care

Thanks, Bill. If nothing else, you succeeded in knocking some of the cynicism out my sails. For today at least. I can't promise the dogs won't wake me up barking at 5am tomorrow and bring it all right back!
GD  
Bill2 : 2/25/2020 9:23 am : link
I agree with your last post. That's the actual value.

Not what techniques or expenditure level may or may not be on staff.

Incidently, a lot of this lends itself to sharply focused external projects not huge internal staffs. We are not likely to know enough to comment with any intelligence about what teams are doing.

Internal shifts can be very rapid because the key is who asks and what they ask for. So last years take and this years can be miles apart.

You can check into this by looking at the adopted changes on the Yankees. Change and adoption rates in a particular area can be overnight
well,  
Bill2 : 2/25/2020 9:24 am : link
The post second to last.

Im slow because im theoretically on a conference call
Gatorade..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/25/2020 9:29 am : link
for the most part you and I have been close in our opinions on analytics:

Quote:
I have always found your take on Gettleman's use of analytics reasonable, even if I think you give him a bit too much credit for the limited use of analytics initially. Nominally using analytics in a very specific capacity is different from embracing a wholesale paradigm shift wherein data is actually valued as information and not just noise in the room while the grown-ups talk about what they see with their own two eyes.


I don't know what your qualifications are on the subject(and I don't need to), but I think your takes are more reasonable than those who have listed their qualifications. I think the only area I've challenged is in what footprint the Giants are leaving - mainly because it isn't presented in relation to all the NFL teams - just in relation to the on es visibly at the top.

The analytics discussions didn't arise though because some posters were lauding the use of analytics by the team. They arose because certain posters took a comment in a press conference an made it into an agenda. I wasn't trying to give Gettleman a lot of credit - I was just trying to refute the incorrect take that he shunned them. And the more that people dug in on the idea that he did nothing, I provided examples where he did do something.

I also fully realize part of the perception that I gave him a lot of credit is due to my style of aggressive rebutting some of those wildly incorrect takes.
RE: Siam  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/25/2020 9:40 am : link
In comment 14818260 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Siam was a football player and has Ivy League undergrad in Econometrics at an Ivy at the forefront of that. His grad at another Ivy was centered on econometric sorting and analysis of massive data bases so better health care policy decisions could be made.

He stated on projects for the NYG in 2014...before anyone on BBI used the word analysis or analytics.

Very smart people in the NFL office consider the average NFl team to have uneven strengths ( areas where they are advanced and areas where they are not) and the NYG generally above average...as of last year.

No NFL team is about to share where they are in the pursuit of competitive advantage and if they did you as a fan should be very upset.

Since we don't know and run the risk of really sounding stupid and proud of it ...why don't we all shut up and hope it translates in the future?

imo

My favorite takeaway from this offseason is that even with a resume like that Siam is barely as smart as the top tier of our coaching staff!

Of course, that includes a PhD candidate HC and two coordinators with Ivy degrees of their own, but whatever.
Exactly  
Bill2 : 2/25/2020 9:44 am : link
Let's hope 2 plus 2 plus 2 equals 7
The only other observation  
Bill2 : 2/25/2020 9:57 am : link
That might be helpful to keep in mind is that the more I have learned about football over the years the more I realize how much is close unknowable. Respecting that fact helps us be better fans.

And the few people in or close to the NFL I wound up meeting over the years ( more with the 49ers and Packers than Giants) always knew there was a lot they did not and could not know. Fans and pundits are much more willing to take logic leaps, believe in made up stuff, miss context and entertain than real professionals ever are.

Like chess, it's a humiliating sport if you are falsely proud
RE: RE: RE: Judge  
BrettNYG10 : 2/25/2020 10:26 am : link
In comment 14818004 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 14817698 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


In comment 14817642 Bill2 said:


Quote:


works long and intense hours. And drives enough questions, uses enough metrics and schedules enough weekly reviews to bring many others throughout the organization to the same level. The jump in performance expectations is welcome by many and an adjustment for others

He not only works long hours but also tight, focused, very process and schedule oriented hours and is very pointed per hour and per person. Listens to those who match the pace. Hits the ball over the net and expects it to come back at the same pace.

Is a major detail and data hog. And lastly, is very matter of fact direct in calling things very good, good, bad and indifferent.

The net effect is a new level and tougher to match pace and performance expectation throughout the building.

Imo, churn from those who cant keep up might be something we see for a year or two.

PS: Graham is the same

PPS: imo, process change and pace, not structure change, is what matters most in making organizational performance jumps.



This makes me very excited.



Me too but I am a bit shell shocked with this franchise. This does feel different and I never liked shurmur, but we need to see it first.


I am too - I have not been pleased with the franchise since 2012 (like everyone else, I'm sure). I'm digging for some positives, and everything I hear about Judge has me excited. I'm also not as down on Mara as others. If there's a soft shift of power to Judge, I'm happy. I'm no longer a DG fan.

Regardless, I just want to see quality football again. Hopefully Jones and Judge can get us there.
So Schwartz confirms...  
bw in dc : 2/25/2020 11:11 am : link
that this was DG's move. Which would make sense from an org chart standpoint. So the idea this was Judge's influence doesn't have much stick.

And I have little doubt that the "...hired specific personnel to help the organization upgrade its analytics department..." part was very likely DG insisting Schwartz plant that in the story, in exchange for who fired the scouts, to keep up the illusion that the Giants are at or the near the forefront of Analytics.

When I see personnel moves that reflect modern day football thinking, then I'll be more inclined to think Jints Central has turned the corner using Analytics. Right now, at best, they are stuck in neutral with applying the concepts...
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 2/25/2020 11:19 am : link
If the Giants made a number of hires in the analytics department this off-season, wouldn't that validate much of the criticism levied a few months ago about the Giants needing much more investment in that area?

Anyway you slice it, I was right.
You like to set up..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/25/2020 11:38 am : link
Catch-22's:

Quote:
When I see personnel moves that reflect modern day football thinking, then I'll be more inclined to think Jints Central has turned the corner using Analytics. Right now, at best, they are stuck in neutral with applying the concepts...


Even when they make the moves, you find a way to spin it to reflect something negative.

There's something stuck in neutral here....
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