I know, I know, the last thing we need is another DG thread. I just read the most recent one about "his wings being clipped" and I really don't get it. I've been a fan since the late 70's so I've seen enough to have been around the block.
The dislike (hatred?) for this guy is really over the top. I think we can all agree that he inherited a pretty shitty roster two years ago and I'd like to think we can all agree (granted it's early to tell definitively) that he had two good drafts including finding what looks like our future franchise QB. No doubt he has had his misses in FA and at least one peculiar trade in LW (but personally I think he's a player and will be resigned).
Can someone explain this to me? Is it his persona and the way he speaks to the media? Do you really just hate his player moves (if so what has he done that's so heinous-and don't bring up the LW trade, we've all seen enough about that). Do you dislike his drafts that much?
I'm not saying I'm a huge fan at all but the hatred seems nuts to me.
Are you really surprised?
Are you really surprised?
Fair enough. I find both things very perplexing
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Actually hate our 2X SB MVP QB who beat the best team the NFL ever had and then did it again 4 years later.
Are you really surprised?
Fair enough. I find both things very perplexing
Absolutely, Kenny, I'm right there with you
Plus, the media vitriol gets transposed....I feel the media hates the guy, as he lies to them, so they constantly write crap about him....and the "fans" follow.....
And then
The handful, of hindsight is 20/20 gms at bbi feel they can do better.....and drafting a RB @2 also had the analyticals going crazy.
I think he has done a ton of good and has transformed the Giants into a very young team with potential and a ton of cap room...if Daniel turns out to be a franchise QB, that would be amazing...now, he hasn't been perfect, but much of it was coach driven.....like Bathea wasn't him.
His 1st draft looked better in the 1st year.....was it all bad coaching? Maybe, we can confirm it this year.....as this coaching staff, will have these guys prepared. LW was a desperate move,if signed and player evolves accordingly....it will turn out fine, but very risky.
I felt he needed 3 years.....so I am giving him 3 years. So,
Very important off season for him.
He is old school; he eschews analytics; he was a typical Giants choice of another organizational retread; the search did not seem particularly exhaustive and then he goes out and produces two really bad teams.
Now if you like him, you point to Daniel Jones, pretty good drafts, and getting rid of most of Reece’s guys.
If you don’t you point to lousy free agent signings, a bizarre trade for LW and more losing.
To me? It absolutely started, BIG TIME with Darnold(or QB of choice)..
In any event, the jury is still out on DG and it's too soon to make any clear judgments. Team rebuilding isn't done overnight.
In any event, the jury is still out on DG and it's too soon to make any clear judgments. Team rebuilding isn't done overnight.
A simple, spot on and excellent post, imv.
as BB said
(The Accorsi role really pissed me off, too. It was clear Mara was giving Accorsi a chance to redeem himself after he recommended the hiring of Reese. So a lot of the Gettleman man hire is on Mara.)
And based on where we are record wise under Gettleman, his coaching hires, and the holes that continue to exist in the roster (both starters and depth) per Gettleman’s personnel decisions, we are arguably just as bad since the day he arrived.
His personality and press conferences just reaffirm to me that he’s completely unfit for the role as face of the franchise. The lack of preparation has been embarrassing when he’s facing the media.
Remember the shirt of Goodell with the clown nose? They should make one for Gettleman. It would be a monster seller...
(The Accorsi role really pissed me off, too. It was clear Mara was giving Accorsi a chance to redeem himself after he recommended the hiring of Reese. So a lot of the Gettleman man hire is on Mara.)
And based on where we are record wise under Gettleman, his coaching hires, and the holes that continue to exist in the roster (both starters and depth) per Gettleman’s personnel decisions, we are arguably just as bad since the day he arrived.
His personality and press conferences just reaffirm to me that he’s completely unfit for the role as face of the franchise. The lack of preparation has been embarrassing when he’s facing the media.
Remember the shirt of Goodell with the clown nose? They should make one for Gettleman. It would be a monster seller...
Why would anyone give a fuck about his personality and press conferences? George Young or no George Young, Parcells was the face of the franchise and his personality and press conferences were even more obnoxious and I loved the Tuna.
To me? It absolutely started, BIG TIME with Darnold(or QB of choice)..
There are probably some for whom that was the turning point. For me it started at the very beginning with his terrible evaluation of the roster in the 2018 offseason which, by DG's own admission, wasted a year of the rebuild timeline and probably caused some pieces to be added in a suboptimal sequence. On top of that, it's been his absolutely abysmal work in rebuilding the offensive line, with multiple bad free agent signings and a bizarre attachment to Jon Halapio, who everyone but DG can see is a liability.
I think he's just better suited to either take an established foundation to a higher level, or to be a top lieutenant for a front office during a rebuild. His moves carry too much inconsistency to reflect a well-conceived plan and the discipline to stick to that script as much as possible. He seems reactionary, which can be an asset when a team is already good and the GM needs to patch holes and build the underlying talent pipeline based on opportunity, but in a full-scale rebuild, it's not nearly as helpful.
And I'm reminded that even though Accorsi endorsed Gettleman in 2017, he did originally pluck Reese as his successor ahead of DG. Maybe it's simply wishful thinking to expect that Accorsi's first instinct was wrong.
But Reese was not especially good - this is not intended as a defense of his work. Just that it seemed stale to go back to the same lineage when the entire operation really needed a 360 review. That was always less likely to happen with a familiar face than with someone new.
It is Giants38, a poster who refers to Gettleman as DSG.
Dave Shitbag Gettleman.
When you have some moron referring to a grown man as a shitbag repeatedly, you can basically ignore anything from that source.
If you prefer the buffoonery approach than you should be pleased.
If you prefer the buffoonery approach than you should be pleased.
LOL. The hell you do!
The Redskins have been trotting out trainwrecks for GM's for years.
If you prefer the buffoonery approach than you should be pleased.
I was quite pleased with the Tuna and he was a buffoon. A lovable one, but a buffoon nevertheless..
John seems like a good man with good intentions but I wonder about his ability level.
He built that terrible stadium
He hired McAdoo and Shurmur.
He bungled the Eli benching thing
But he was born with a license to print money so it doesn’t really matter.
(The Accorsi role really pissed me off, too. It was clear Mara was giving Accorsi a chance to redeem himself after he recommended the hiring of Reese. So a lot of the Gettleman man hire is on Mara.)
And based on where we are record wise under Gettleman, his coaching hires, and the holes that continue to exist in the roster (both starters and depth) per Gettleman’s personnel decisions, we are arguably just as bad since the day he arrived.
His personality and press conferences just reaffirm to me that he’s completely unfit for the role as face of the franchise. The lack of preparation has been embarrassing when he’s facing the media.
Remember the shirt of Goodell with the clown nose? They should make one for Gettleman. It would be a monster seller...
Well, you and I are pretty much lockstep in this, except I believe that DG's role has been reduced, if not stripped.
But I agree. Every PC, every statement DG makes is bordering on nonsensical. Unlike what he said, scheme matters. You think he knows that, but instead he chooses to say that
I was quite pleased with the Tuna and he was a buffoon. A lovable one, but a buffoon nevertheless..
As a huge fan of Parcells, so this comes with much bias, I recall Parcells being a maestro at controlling the press. He exuded confidence.
Gettleman is largely the opposite...to me.
But then he did not do himself any favors by poorly assessing Eli, the roster and the team's ability as a whole to be competitive from the outset.
Add in a few significant moves that would probably be handled differently if DG had properly assessed the (poor) state of the team, and the arrogant nature that seems to accompany it, and you have a nice recipe for why he is not liked.
The passing on Darnold in the draft was a moment, not the fulcrum.
Are you really surprised?
Great Point!
That's a lot of what these endless circles of bashing Gettleman are about - you have fans who hate the man!
I don't like Gettleman because the hiring process that resulted in him was a joke, he sounds like a clown every time he opens his mouth, and he's done a mostly miserable job thus far. Simple as that.
So if you’re a fan of DG and looking for something to re-assure you of DG’s GM chops, there you have it...
That's a lot of what these endless circles of bashing Gettleman are about - you have fans who hate the man!
Is hating someone not allowed? I am fairly certain there’s a big enough pocket of NYG fans who feel similar.
That's a lot of what these endless circles of bashing Gettleman are about - you have fans who hate the man!
Even though it's stated clear as day, not even veiled slightly, you'll continually have posters defend that that's not the case, that it's strictly objective criticism.
When you come right out and say that, how can anything you say about the subject be taken objectively from that point on?
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I really can't believe that's a sentiment for a football professional, but there you have it.
That's a lot of what these endless circles of bashing Gettleman are about - you have fans who hate the man!
Is hating someone not allowed? I am fairly certain there’s a big enough pocket of NYG fans who feel similar.
I agree with the bolded, 100%. Whether they'll come right out and say it, or not.
In the interim a number of posters I really respect have gone in some strange directions to trivialize criticism and/or the utility of general management.
Maybe the role of GM is overstated, but team vision and building has been a problem, the general manager admitted it. The Giants have been profoundly bad for about 6 years, they've been historically awful the last 2 years.
There are mitigating, but not exonerating factors. It's not been one or two bad moves. There have been several. When those get debated the discussion devolves into excuse making.
When Dave Gettleman's tenure coincides with a winning football team, it will be miraculous how popular he becomes.
Just like others are entitled to question why a grown man would bear hate for another individual for no legitimate reason.
Can't stop hate - but hopefully shining light on morons taking ridiculous stances helps....
Just like others are entitled to question why a grown man would bear hate for another individual for no legitimate reason.
Can't stop hate - but hopefully shining light on morons taking ridiculous stances helps....
I think the manner in how he was hired and 9-23 can’t just be dismissed as “no legitimate reason”.
How he was hired is reason to hate HIM??
why don't you hate Mara instead.
You are blaming a guy for the way he was hired, and attributing hate to him for it?
Hopefully you aren't trying to shed the moron designation.
BUT - that doesn't automatically mean that he can't build a winner.
I all of sudden find myself defending the guy despite the fact that I would have chosen someone else.
A guy who takes no money from me, denied me nothing and doesn't stop me from whatever life I wish
I LEGITIMATELY loathe him.
And I think that's normal and defensible?
A guy who takes no money from me, denied me nothing and doesn't stop me from whatever life I wish
I LEGITIMATELY loathe him.
And I think that's normal, OK and defensible
How he was hired is reason to hate HIM??
why don't you hate Mara instead.
You are blaming a guy for the way he was hired, and attributing hate to him for it?
Hopefully you aren't trying to shed the moron designation.
Who’s the moron here? The guy who hates the GM because he’s perceived by the media AND a good number of his fans as an incompetent buffoon (9-23) or the president of the DG fan club who thinks the guy has been good at his job? I don’t think the choice can be any clearer.
As an aside, USA TODAY is the latest publication to absolutely cut Dave to ribbons.
Link - ( New Window )
But the emotional excess and hyperfocus is easy to see and a hard position to defend
There is no enemy here. Your emotion needs to go into letters to the NYG or some channel that does not spill every day into a dead end
Captain Ahab did at least have a harpoon when obsessively chasing the White Whale. None of us do
I can actually find a post right above saying you legitimately loathe him.
Are you actually fucking defending that nonsense and wearing it as a badge of honor??
I hope some day I'm able to be the President of a Fan Club for a guy who has a hand in leading to winning again. And if that day comes, your moronic ass will not get a membership!!
I can actually find a post right above saying you legitimately loathe him.
Are you actually fucking defending that nonsense and wearing it as a badge of honor??
I hope some day I'm able to be the President of a Fan Club for a guy who has a hand in leading to winning again. And if that day comes, your moronic ass will not get a membership!!
Damn, you just ruined my day.
☹️
John seems like a good man with good intentions but I wonder about his ability level.
He built that terrible stadium
He hired McAdoo and Shurmur.
He bungled the Eli benching thing
But he was born with a license to print money so it doesn’t really matter.
This, x 10.
I said it when DG was hired - I didn't dislike the guy, and I didn't think he was a bad exec. What I did think was that he was the wrong guy for this organization, one that had become mired in some really faulty thinking and needed some drastic change, and were instead bringing in an old friend to see if they could continue along the same path with different results.
Not surprisingly, they couldn't.
I think the Giants most admirable quality is also their downfall. They're loyal. They just relieved two guys of their duties after almost 20 years. I'm sure that was an extremely difficult thing to do. I don't think those types of decisions can easily been made when everyone in the building has been together for that long (for Gettleman, slightly less with his stint in Carolina). They needed outside perspective and didn't get it.
You revealed too much of the mess inside. Now you are embarrassed and don't know how to handle it.
You lost all credibility as a poster with balanced insights and now you don't know how to handle it
Don't you realize that your mind is not our problem?
Only you can fix it and you cant fix it here
Now all we are observing is a side hooked baby flounder flopping on the dock and gasping with the shock of his predicament and the harshness of the actual light.
Maybe a new start, new self examination and a new handle is the way to go
If you prefer the buffoonery approach than you should be pleased.
We all can agree that stylistically DG leaves a lot to be desired. He’s pretty cringeworthy in front of the press. With due respect, I honestly don’t care if our GM is good in public, I care about him making sound football decisions.
This is a discussion board, so of course we’re all entitled to our opinions, and you and anyone who’s questioned/criticized at least some of DGs decisions has reasonable grounds.
IMO if it turns out he’s hit on the Jones pick and we have a new franchise QB for the next 12 year, that outweighs a lot of his bad decisions like trading for Ogletree or signing Stewart at RB. Bad decisions, but far less significant that nailing a top QB draft pick.
I think most can admit that some fans hatred of DG has gone to an irrational level, that’s what this thread is about.
Instead of evaluating his decisions one by one, many fans thing any decision he makes sucks just bc he made it. That’s where these reasonable discussions/debates get silly. IMO
You revealed too much of the mess inside. Now you are embarrassed and don't know how to handle it.
You lost all credibility as a poster with balanced insights and now you don't know how to handle it
Don't you realize that your mind is not our problem?
Only you can fix it and you cant fix it here
Now all we are observing is a side hooked baby flounder flopping on the dock and gasping with the shock of his predicament and the harshness of the actual light.
Maybe a new start, new self examination and a new handle is the way to go
I’m not in any predicament at all. The bottom line here is we are all NYG fans who want to see the team do well. When Dave does something worthy of praise, I have given it on those rare occasions and should he end up turning this around this year, I will give him kudos and all that stuff. I’ll be around here on bbi longer than Dave will be GM of the NYG.
and prior to that post I always thought you were a pretty balanced contributor
John seems like a good man with good intentions but I wonder about his ability level.
He built that terrible stadium
He hired McAdoo and Shurmur.
He bungled the Eli benching thing
But he was born with a license to print money so it doesn’t really matter.
Bam.
But it isn't as unbalanced as it often seems on here
I think if we are not more observant and closer to fact based we will miss signs of improvement and also legitimate signs of where it isn't
Usually things are not as bad as they appear when things look bad and not as good as they appear when things look good.
2011 is a perfect example of this. It actually hid a precipitous decline in the fundamental strengths of the team and when the execs missed it for a few years...the delay set in motion a long decline. imo
and prior to that post I always thought you were a pretty balanced contributor
I’m not asking you to actually go back and search, but, especially lately, I have given Dave props like when Snacks got released and there was another thread in the last week which I forget at the moment. Yes I am obviously not his biggest fan, but I do give him credit when credit is due, like drafting Jones. That’s an enormous PRO on his body of work here.
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I expect a GM, essentially an officer of the company, to sound prepared, organized, and professional.
If you prefer the buffoonery approach than you should be pleased.
We all can agree that stylistically DG leaves a lot to be desired. He’s pretty cringeworthy in front of the press. With due respect, I honestly don’t care if our GM is good in public, I care about him making sound football decisions.
This is a discussion board, so of course we’re all entitled to our opinions, and you and anyone who’s questioned/criticized at least some of DGs decisions has reasonable grounds.
IMO if it turns out he’s hit on the Jones pick and we have a new franchise QB for the next 12 year, that outweighs a lot of his bad decisions like trading for Ogletree or signing Stewart at RB. Bad decisions, but far less significant that nailing a top QB draft pick.
I think most can admit that some fans hatred of DG has gone to an irrational level, that’s what this thread is about.
Instead of evaluating his decisions one by one, many fans thing any decision he makes sucks just bc he made it. That’s where these reasonable discussions/debates get silly. IMO
Well said
I don't think he is uncaring, too silver spooned, lazy or too loyal.
Think he has a different problem common to Owner's/CEO's
FWIW, I do not expect the Giants to have a good record this year. I think they go full in on young. I think they will start out slow with a new staff, new schemes and new players. This is the true start to the rebuild, this year.
What I hope is that we start to see improvement - tangible improvement, reductions in turnovers, fewer defensive mistakes, fewer penalties and the like.
I therefore think, unless FA and the draft is totally botched, DG will be back at least one more year.
With that said, when DG was hired I am sure ownership instructed him that Eli was playing out his contract. Period end of story.
So now you have to try and walk the line of building a competitive team and yet with an eye toward a total turnover for the eventual new QB. That's not an easy job.
He got rid of some really terrible contracts and headcases. The OBJ trade in my mind was a single stroke of genius. To get what he did was an outright steal for one of the most overrated players in the league. He has set the franchise up with some young players with potential and has the cap space to make an impact at some positions of need.
He has whiffed on some of his FA choices. And he's not a polished corporate type. He's a 30 year career football guy. This is an important year for him because if the team does take a significant step forward that would vindicate him. Obviously Shurmur and his staff did him no favors.
Overall I am satisfied that the team will trend up. This was never going to get fixed in a year or two.
It was a legit compliment when I said I always had read your contributions as balanced.
FWIW, I do not expect the Giants to have a good record this year. I think they go full in on young. I think they will start out slow with a new staff, new schemes and new players. This is the true start to the rebuild, this year.
What I hope is that we start to see improvement - tangible improvement, reductions in turnovers, fewer defensive mistakes, fewer penalties and the like.
I therefore think, unless FA and the draft is totally botched, DG will be back at least one more year.
Personally, as I’ve mentioned, 7 wins should be the line in the sand. I don’t see how Dave deserves a 4th go at it if go 6-10 or worse.
It was a legit compliment when I said I always had read your contributions as balanced.
Thank you. So I will try to see it down the middle with Dave. If you (or anyone) read my critiques as perhaps over the top, call me out on it.
Loyal to TC for too long
Loyal to Reece for too long
Loyal to too many JAGS on the roster for too long
Loyal to Eli for too long
Loyal to DG for too long
I get giving guys the time they need to succeed, or turn it around, or expecting them to be perfect, BUT it would seem the Giants subscribe to theory of keeping a guy too long rather than letting someone go a little too soon.
As time goes on and if the new coaches are as good as well as hard working he matters less over time.
See you around. Thanks for getting the exchange to a good place. That's a measure of a man of substance. After all, we all have bad takes
Reese and Ross did a miserable job their last 5+ years here which left Gettleman with arguably the least talented roster in football not to mention an aging franchise QB with absolutely no option to replace him. Gettleman was tasked with the unenviable job of replacing a legend combined with little cap space.
Gettleman has made his share of mistakes especially in free agency but he has this team headed in the right direction. His first two drafts look like big successes after years of misses by his predecessors.
This is a huge offseason for the Giants as they finally have plenty of cap space and another top 5 pick. I think it's fair to judge Gettleman over what transpires next season.
The truth is this franchise is in far better shape than it was two years ago. If you don't think so you're either biased or an idiot.
His first draft absolutely does not look like a big success.
Talk about wishcasting
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His first two drafts look like big successes
His first draft absolutely does not look like a big success.
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The truth is this franchise is in far better shape than it was two years ago.
Talk about wishcasting
A lot of the perception the team is in no better shape than the day Dave walked in, a perspective I agree with, needs to factor in coaching. If Dave’s player acquisitions are as good as some feel, this new staff (which I am a big fan of) will justify them. Shurmer and Co. were beyond awful.
1) Not liking the hiring process
2) Wanting to pick Darnold
3) Dislike his personality in front of the media
4) Disliked him before he even got here
I was none of the above. I don't hate the guy. I couldn't care less about his media persona. When he was hired I thought his take no prisoners attitude might be a good thing... I didn't like the Barkley pick, but didn't want Darnold. I didn't really like the bulk of that first draft. I've never liked his FA moves. And despite all that I was arguing that he needed more time for his vision to play out well into this season. It wasn't until after a few games this year, and the lack of improvement was glaring that I changed my tune.
Not everybody who is now criticizing DG arrived at that place via the same route. Mine is based on what I view as a long series of bad decisions. That said, its not all bad with DG, its a mixed bag. As Bill2 has put it (I'm paraphrasing), there is some water level that defines average GM decision making. Most GMs live within a small delta of that average. DG lives there as well, I just think the delta for him is under, and that doesn't cut it for a rebuilding franchise.
1.) Daniel Jones
2.) Joe Judge
3.) Barkley
In that order.
On the other hand, you have people dropping gems like this, attacking anybody that has a different opinion, it goes by without a blink of an eye by those who wich to attack the people who criticize this GM.
There seems to be a theme lately, even among posters who I respect, that anybody who criticizes the GM is "hyberbolic", "emotional", and "unbalanced". Yet there are at least as many bad takes attacking the DG naysayers that as bad or worse than anything the naysayers post.
If you are going to claim "balance" they you should be attacking quotes like that one quote with even more vigor than The Boss' "hatred", since The Boss never shut down debate or discussion or dissenting opinion. The quote above attempts to do all the above.
Moved on from Eli
Cleared out the bad contracts
Re-organized scouting department
Bad coach hire (The choices WERE limited)
Moved on to new coach who most of us like
Bad Free Agent signings, but only one lingers
Cleaned out lockerroom (Loved OBJ but it was a good call)
Good trades except the LW where the jury is out
Fixed organizational leaks
Current status
Solid with cap
Good young players including QB
Good young coach (?)
Solid coaching staff
Still have some big roster holes to fill (OT, C, LB, ER)
Still have smaller roster holes to fill (FS, CB, WR)
Team has been drafting better
How can they maximize 2020 picks (trade?)
Need to make the right choices in FA
It's not all good, but I don't understand the hate. The needle is pointing up IMO.
We all can agree that stylistically DG leaves a lot to be desired. He’s pretty cringeworthy in front of the press. With due respect, I honestly don’t care if our GM is good in public, I care about him making sound football decisions.
This is a discussion board, so of course we’re all entitled to our opinions, and you and anyone who’s questioned/criticized at least some of DGs decisions has reasonable grounds.
IMO if it turns out he’s hit on the Jones pick and we have a new franchise QB for the next 12 year, that outweighs a lot of his bad decisions like trading for Ogletree or signing Stewart at RB. Bad decisions, but far less significant that nailing a top QB draft pick.
I think most can admit that some fans hatred of DG has gone to an irrational level, that’s what this thread is about.
Instead of evaluating his decisions one by one, many fans thing any decision he makes sucks just bc he made it. That’s where these reasonable discussions/debates get silly. IMO
A few things.
You are right. DG's legacy is tethered to Jones. If Jones is the guy who wins playoff games and looks to be a legit force multiplier at QB, then many of the blunders get set aside and likely forgotten.
I found the decision to hire DG loathsome, which is clearly on Mara, but I don't hate the guy. At the same time, I don't get mired down in these sidebars like "hating DG" and making it a big deal to focus on. Sort of a red-herring in my eyes.
Like I suggested earlier, I have a hard time finding many differences between the Reese era and Gettleman era to date. Both have a lot in common - poor records and poor roster decisions.
But here's my bottom line - until we start seeing DG's decision paying dividends, like wins, it's more than reasonable to question EVERY move. I just don't see much evidence to date to inspire any trust in his decision making...
Moved on from Eli
Cleared out the bad contracts
Re-organized scouting department
Bad coach hire (The choices WERE limited)
Moved on to new coach who most of us like
Bad Free Agent signings, but only one lingers
Cleaned out lockerroom (Loved OBJ but it was a good call)
Good trades except the LW where the jury is out
Fixed organizational leaks
Current status
Solid with cap
Good young players including QB
Good young coach (?)
Solid coaching staff
Still have some big roster holes to fill (OT, C, LB, ER)
Still have smaller roster holes to fill (FS, CB, WR)
Team has been drafting better
How can they maximize 2020 picks (trade?)
Need to make the right choices in FA
It's not all good, but I don't understand the hate. The needle is pointing up IMO.
Seems like a fair assessment to me.
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We all can agree that stylistically DG leaves a lot to be desired. He’s pretty cringeworthy in front of the press. With due respect, I honestly don’t care if our GM is good in public, I care about him making sound football decisions.
This is a discussion board, so of course we’re all entitled to our opinions, and you and anyone who’s questioned/criticized at least some of DGs decisions has reasonable grounds.
IMO if it turns out he’s hit on the Jones pick and we have a new franchise QB for the next 12 year, that outweighs a lot of his bad decisions like trading for Ogletree or signing Stewart at RB. Bad decisions, but far less significant that nailing a top QB draft pick.
I think most can admit that some fans hatred of DG has gone to an irrational level, that’s what this thread is about.
Instead of evaluating his decisions one by one, many fans thing any decision he makes sucks just bc he made it. That’s where these reasonable discussions/debates get silly. IMO
A few things.
You are right. DG's legacy is tethered to Jones. If Jones is the guy who wins playoff games and looks to be a legit force multiplier at QB, then many of the blunders get set aside and likely forgotten.
I found the decision to hire DG loathsome, which is clearly on Mara, but I don't hate the guy. At the same time, I don't get mired down in these sidebars like "hating DG" and making it a big deal to focus on. Sort of a red-herring in my eyes.
Like I suggested earlier, I have a hard time finding many differences between the Reese era and Gettleman era to date. Both have a lot in common - poor records and poor roster decisions.
But here's my bottom line - until we start seeing DG's decision paying dividends, like wins, it's more than reasonable to question EVERY move. I just don't see much evidence to date to inspire any trust in his decision making...
Talk about hypocrisy. You won't get mired down in sidebars like "hating Gettleman", yet you love creating them? "Giants Way", "EFC", etc... How are those any different?
I dont see a pro DG side. It's hard to have data to support it
I see push back on over the top negative that makes it hard to parse any one current decision given the carryover.
I see push back on unsupported and speculative narratives.
For me, it's just too much energy beating a dead horse. It's a dumping ground topic for ambient dissappointment and the hard to be patient nature of these times.
Imo
He's not.
The Reese thing is a strawman that people seem to use to belittle anyone who criticizes DG, typically suggesting that if you don't like the job DG has done, you must be a Reese loyalist.
The reality is, they're cut from the same Accorsi lineage here - their styles aren't quite as contrasting as many seem to think, IMO. Reese's tenure fell off the cliff mostly when Ross took on more responsibility - Reese deserves full blame for that as the one who allowed that to happen. And DG's biggest upgrade was probably Chris Pettit.
But they're really not quite as different as many think, apart from their public persona.
Reese's bread and butter seemed to center around athletic freaks, guys that had insane measurables but were not very polished, or very green, football players.
I don't know whether it was he, or Marc Ross, who coined the term "basketball on grass", but their drafts seemed to fit that analogy.
Gettleman and Accorsi are much more similar, and comparable. Traditional, if you will.
I think Reese's fault, perhaps, was believing that the NFL was evolving faster than it was, and that speed could overcome deficiencies on both lines.
- Disappointment over Donald
- His goofy press conferences
- Nostalgia for Reese
The Giants lost more games over the last 2 years under DG than any other 2 year period under a GM in the 16-game era.
DG oversaw hiring the only coach in the 16 game era to not have a .500 or above season.
The Giants paid Manning 40M+ for 6 wins.
There's arguably not one veteran acquisition from the 2018 offseason who will make the team this year.
This isn't make believe disappointment.
I believe there is a good argument Nate Solder at a 19.5M cap hit, entering his 10th year in the NFL, after 2 very poor seasons, will be a cap casualty. Yes.
He gets this whole year. If we do not look like a franchise with the arrow obviously pointing up get your pitchforks, I am with you. It has not been good enough. Until then, no need to call someone names battling cancer. Just stop. He is in the big job, it is fair to criticize but he deserves this year if you want a fair evaluation.
I saw an attempt to make a run at the playoffs from day one with a roster that I thought was so far away. Misanalyzing the team scared the shit out of me and made me lose a ton of confidence in him. Swinging and missing on Solder led to another loss of confidence. Extending and then trading Beckham, holding on to Jack Rabbit and then getting nothing for him, trading for Ogletree, and then trading for Williams all culminated in my thinking DG should have been fired.
Plus, we are 9-23 and we burned a year pretending we could compete. The people who cheered on the DG moves thinking we can compete should be the loudest critics (except that would force them to admit they were entirely wrong too).
I was fine with the DG hire - I thought his tenure in CAR was encouraging but he's sucked so far.
And I'm happy to give him credit where I think it's due. Jones looks excellent, I'd take him over any other QB the past two drafts. Trading Beckham (despite the initial error) looks good, trading Vernon was good.
I want DG to do well and the Giants to do well. I find his personality sort of funny and appreciate that he's been with the franchise for a long time.
DG oversaw hiring the only coach in the 16 game era to not have a .500 or above season.
The only GM to have a winning season in either of his first two years on the job was Reese.
And of course, Robustelli had a worse first two seasons, going 2-12 and 5-9, but he only had 14 games.
The bottom line should be that Gettleman inherited a poor football team. Most GM's do. Very few times is there an immediate turnaround to a playoff appearance from a 3-13 team, especially when the roster is turned over.
Ray Handley took over a SB team, never was ABOVE .500 and is considered a terrible hire. So it isn't like Gettleman is even the first GM IN THE 16 GAME SEASON ERA to hire a bad coach.
The Giants lost 23 games in Gettleman's first two years, which is also really bad and the most for a 2nd year GM in this era.
Again, I've always maintained Gettleman can only be fully judged after 3 full off seasons. But through 2 and change, he's made some unequivocal big mistakes. He admits, the owners admits it, the coach got fired, and the new coach has alluded to it.
It's not unfounded or bad fandom to believe Gettleman has done many unsuccessful things so far as the Giants GM.
Give Shurmur that SB team, and I doubt he does worse than what Handley did.
Give Shurmur that SB team, and I doubt he does worse than what Handley did.
This is a real race to the bottom. Both coaches were very bad.
I'd assume you'd agree Shurmur is in the column of Gettleman's mistakes.
I just reserve a special mantle for Captain Time Management - Handley
I just reserve a special mantle for Captain Time Management - Handley
I'm with ya. Handley single-handed ruined middle school for me.
I dont see a pro DG side. It's hard to have data to support it
I see push back on over the top negative that makes it hard to parse any one current decision given the carryover.
I see push back on unsupported and speculative narratives.
For me, it's just too much energy beating a dead horse. It's a dumping ground topic for ambient dissappointment and the hard to be patient nature of these times.
Imo
Sorry Bill...
My view is quite different...
Admittedly, I see a few "over the top" negative posts about DG. At least those posts are generally aimed at a debatable figure within the team... On the other hand, I see far more "over the top" posts from "defenders" giving unfair and unbalanced push back aimed directly at other posters. This dynamic has forced a wider polarization than would otherwise exist.
For example you completely ignored the quote that I posted above. There are an order of magnitude more posts like that, than there are "over the top" critical remarks of DG. The problem is, that this has become tribal. So, when you fall in one tribe, you ignore those kinds of posts from your tribe. They don't register. At this point Bill, I think you have clearly fallen into the tribe that is denouncing the critics. Whether or not your view of DG is positive or not, you are now in the criticize the critics tribe. Your posts in recent months reflect that "imbalance".
Something to consider.
And I haven't even started quoting my least favorite poster on BBI of all time yet.
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course. Shurmur is not a good HC.
I just reserve a special mantle for Captain Time Management - Handley
I'm with ya. Handley single-handed ruined middle school for me.
You know what sucks - my kids says the same thing about Eli Manning.
Of course, being the good parent I am - we watched the all the old games (to him anyway) so he can understand just how good the old Eli was...but it doesn't change the fact that he wasn't old enough to see/remember the Super Bowl wins and miraculous games he orchestrated through the playoffs.
Based on what I see, I disagree on the reason blinding emotion on the pro dg side.
I dont see a pro DG side. It's hard to have data to support it
I agree with 1000% that it is hard to be Pro DG and try to use anything like data to support your argument. There really just isn't much in the way of positive data.
There was a time that there was a pro-DG tribe that tried to do this. As the season went on, it became clear there was no defense. Instead it, that tribe morphed into the "Attack the Critics" tribe.
I'm sure you have noticed that I have not been participating in these debates much anymore. And even in this one, I am not debating DG's merits or demerits. Nor did I argue them yesterday on the the Peter King/DG thread. All I did there was dispute some statements with known facts and defend a poster against more "Attack the Critics" type posters.
Mara wanted a sharp break from the past and he wanted a hire from an outstanding winning program who was analytical, best practice and winning process focused. He wanted a big change
He personally went to Foxboro and talked to the FO and BB and RK. He asked RK for permission. He waited to get interviews with the guys he wanted who fit those criteria
About 5-6 were interviewed.
Two to three prior candidates who were made offers rejected Mara. One after he said yes then waited several days to say no. Highly unlikely that guy gets another shot anytime soon after screwing two NFL owners in one short period
It was late and Shurmur has a rep with developing QB's ( which was going to be a priority to transition from Eli).
He had a decent reputation around the league. He had developed QB's.
The combination of being late and PS own recruiting talents produced the mediocre coaching staff
Notice how much faster and prepared they were with the last search. But notice that once again Mara wanted bold and this time he got it.
But those facts don't fit the Jints Central BS so we ignore them
Mara's impatience with the status quo fired or caused the firing of 3 HC/ One GM/One head of scouting/ 6 coordinators and about 30 coaches in five years trying to get a much better foundation for the team. Facts.
Fault the execution/fault some moves...but the mossy old does nothing Jints Central motif lives on without full alignment with the actual facts only in some heads on BBI.
And they consider themselves realists.
I don't react to every post
Neither do you
Its a defense of the facts about who hired PS and how that came to passs
Where Mara fucked up and was not properly engaged was 2010 to 2016. That I do blame on him
The mess of 2016-2021 was a result of him trusting and being hands off too long
When he did begin to act he had no one around him to build upon and we lost 2016-2021 with an owners willing ness to act but no ability to do it well
Mara's impatience with the status quo fired or caused the firing of 3 HC/ One GM/One head of scouting/ 6 coordinators and about 30 coaches in five years trying to get a much better foundation for the team. Facts.
Fault the execution/fault some moves...but the mossy old does nothing Jints Central motif lives on without full alignment with the actual facts only in some heads on BBI.
And they consider themselves realists.
Except that there is good reason to debate the what the faults were in the execution... Was there a lazy adherence to old comforts and old practices. I'm not saying ther ewas or wasn't, but there is a debate there.
Your tone above is very dismissive.... Not balanced at all...
Funny, I feel the same.
So does being combative.
Look, we had good discussions not because I agreed with you but because I admired a poster who tried to be fact based in support of his points. I like that a lot in posters and respect it. There is not enough of it
But you might want to consider that over time, your weakest positions were attacked. Not by me. And you were not attacked. Your positions were attached but you over valued the supporting data as more telling than it often was and then conflated opposition to ideas as a greater insult than it was.
Now its all personal combat and sensitivity to the unfairness of it all. Which only accelerates replies in kind
Look at your posts from a year or two ago. Very good stuff. Maybe re find footing there ? I don't know
I know its not a good idea for us to engage this way so im going to back off until I find more solid ground
Dave Gettleman has provided over two offseasons thus far. It's just not enough to undo the previous 10 years of poor drafting. It's just not.
If you look at it at a very basic level, he needed to rebuild and entire 53 man roster. In two offseasons there's really nothing left. That doesn't mean that he messed up. It just means that we are finally starting at a clean slate from a roster and financial standpoing. We are now building from the ground up.
And I get the "he mis-evaluated the roster he inherited" argument. I get it. But there are prior instances of teams being able to make some moves and tweaks and still remain competitive WHILE rebuilding. It does happen. He also happened to have the Eli Manning situation in his lap, which was he had a vet QB who could still play at 36 years old and two years remaining on his contract. That is not an easy situation/decision to navigate, especially when the player isn't the root of the problem.
Did Shurmur really do a bad job hiring or is it just easy to say that two years later? I liked the Bettcher hire, for example. I think most of BBI did as well. I was not thrilled with Shula, but didn't think he was the worst choice available. Then again, Bettcher and many of the position coaches are left jobless last I checked, so I could be wrong.
I think the NYG HC job was very much impossible the past two seasons. I don't think there's been a large disconnect between the talent and record the past two seasons.
So does being combative.
Look, we had good discussions not because I agreed with you but because I admired a poster who tried to be fact based in support of his points. I like that a lot in posters and respect it. There is not enough of it
But you might want to consider that over time, your weakest positions were attacked. Not by me. And you were not attacked. Your positions were attached but you over valued the supporting data as more telling than it often was and then conflated opposition to ideas as a greater insult than it was.
Now its all personal combat and sensitivity to the unfairness of it all. Which only accelerates replies in kind
Look at your posts from a year or two ago. Very good stuff. Maybe re find footing there ? I don't know
I know its not a good idea for us to engage this way so im going to back off until I find more solid ground
No, in general you were not agreeing with me, you were going into details and picking at a flaw in my argument. I never had, and still don't have an issue with any of that.
I haven't been posting a whole lot lately. Multiple reasons... I have been extremely busy, and don't have a whole lotta time, especially to research something the way I normally would when I want to post about something. There also hasn't been much new lately that has captured my imagination to post about (perhaps a function of lack of time). So in that sense, you are right... I haven't made those kinds of posts lately. Perhaps come draft time, assuming I free up a bit.
On the other hand, you always took a neutral analytical approach. The kinds of sweeping generalizations and labeling of a whole class of thought that you've made on this thread alone, would have been unthinkable for you a year ago. You would have stuck to the facts. Perhaps something for you to try and regrab a foothold of there as well.
If anybody is lumping the previous 6 years into the last two, it was Mara, DG and any of the fans on BBI that thought Eli Manning was going to keep pulling this flawed team up by his bootstraps. Even though his O-line wasn't getting any better and his game (and age) were deteriorating.
The 2016 team developed some mojo in season on Defense and won a whole lot of close games, but it was short lived. The team fundamentally wasn't sound on either side of the ball sans the occasionally slant throw that went for a 60-yard TD.
There was a time to look critically at breaking this thing down, but the decisions went the other way and Eli stayed in the saddle and expensive yet flawed free agents were signed. And now they are digging out of that mess.
from afar it looked like Bettcher could not teach at all and did not have talent to teach. Both things
I thought that from afar and no much else to go on the OL/RB/Lb/Db/Assistant DB coaches ranged from "where you there?" to "we couldn't do better"?
As a group the coaches simply did not show:
Time Management
Adaption during the game or at the half
Adaption from game to game
Play calling skills
Inexplicable plays called too often
Unit improvement from the Ol/LB/DB/CB
Putting players in position to do well ( often seemed we actually went away from the "book" on what they do well)
I get your good point...with the talent especially on defense its hard to see how even great coaching could have gotten more than 2 more wins. But I think I saw two more games that were winnable by good coaching ( I get that would not have helped us come draft time, but I couldn't find a defense of many on the prior coaching staff)
Take care Brett
Are you really surprised?
I really don't think any Giants fans "actually hate" Eli Manning. I do think though 8+ years since the Giants last won a playoff game with Eli at QB you do have fans who think there should be a change at the position.
Seems like hyperbole.
Fact, there is no argument.
Had to deal with a high paid, declining 2 time SB winning QB beloved my ownership and fans.
That is extremely difficult to navigate.
I will not go through all of the decisions.
There is both good and bad.
I lean towards, he has not been good enough.
I just can't say for sure yet.
1 more year.
After this entire year if we do not look better it will be fair to say DG has not been good enough and the Giants should move on.
It would help with your criticisms if you were to shelve the ad hominem attacks. I watch them bait people into doing it. Then, once you go there, you are attacked personally for your name calling and justifiably so.
Almost every thread is reduced to the same people trying to find the most clever and insulting ways to call their enemies with a different opinion stupid.
Tribal enemies.
And I did not see that as picking...I saw that as places where a good poster could have been engaging towards us both getting to a more solid ground. I thank you for those discussions.
I fully agree that for me my preferential way to engage feels much harder in the current environment so perhaps we are finding the same things from different directions
For example, FMIC has gotten under your skin. I get the reasons why and the worst exchanges where unnecessary. But you should know there is no way to "win" those kinds of exchanges. Its one of the reasons I tried to take you elsewhere on some of those threads. Let others see over the top as over the top and keep on doing your level best posting
If it were me, Id shrug all that off more McL. But that's easier for me to say because I have known and like FMIC for a long time. I certainly wouldn't let that wreck your experience. I certainly would not keep a scorecard and try to win the last word with posters ( I do that to my own detriment all the time0
Most fights are about the other guy. And most things that set people off are traits they half see in themselves and don't like about themselves. How else could they see and find "reasons' to respond?
Take care and see you down the road.
Maybe once past the draft the emotional content on some subjects will die down enough that they are debateable
from afar it looked like Bettcher could not teach at all and did not have talent to teach. Both things
I thought that from afar and no much else to go on the OL/RB/Lb/Db/Assistant DB coaches ranged from "where you there?" to "we couldn't do better"?
As a group the coaches simply did not show:
Time Management
Adaption during the game or at the half
Adaption from game to game
Play calling skills
Inexplicable plays called too often
Unit improvement from the Ol/LB/DB/CB
Putting players in position to do well ( often seemed we actually went away from the "book" on what they do well)
I get your good point...with the talent especially on defense its hard to see how even great coaching could have gotten more than 2 more wins. But I think I saw two more games that were winnable by good coaching ( I get that would not have helped us come draft time, but I couldn't find a defense of many on the prior coaching staff)
Take care Brett
Thanks. I see your point and agree with all of it.
I would have been fine with the coaching staff staying despite the record if I saw things to hang my hat on. Outside of Jones and Slayton, there wasn't much. There were too many errors. Teams like the 04 Giants and even this years Dolphins showed traits of quality coaching despite bad records.
But I am looking for examples of the following:
I) A team we are not expected to beat where we do by dint of a better game plan or plays that the opponent is not prepared for
II) A game we win by adjustments during the game and especially at the half
III) Well played last two minute plans
IV) Better line calls by Jones
V) Better line play by the OL
VI) Better defense in the middle of the field
VII) Several guys who are better by the end of the year
I've complained about Gettleman enough. :)
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Actually hate our 2X SB MVP QB who beat the best team the NFL ever had and then did it again 4 years later.
Are you really surprised?
I really don't think any Giants fans "actually hate" Eli Manning. I do think though 8+ years since the Giants last won a playoff game with Eli at QB you do have fans who think there should be a change at the position.
Seems like hyperbole.
Come on PJ, you've been on this board long enough to have read some of the nonsense posted about him over the years. That is quite a soft-sell claiming that they just wanted a change.
He has been vilified by many people on this board for years. He even caught crap over the 2016 GB playoff game where he had something 3 TD passes dropped and our top 3 receivers combined for a whopping 121 yards and were outperformed by Will Tye and Tavarres King
Dave Gettleman has provided over two offseasons thus far. It's just not enough to undo the previous 10 years of poor drafting. It's just not.
If you look at it at a very basic level, he needed to rebuild and entire 53 man roster. In two offseasons there's really nothing left. That doesn't mean that he messed up. It just means that we are finally starting at a clean slate from a roster and financial standpoing. We are now building from the ground up.
And I get the "he mis-evaluated the roster he inherited" argument. I get it. But there are prior instances of teams being able to make some moves and tweaks and still remain competitive WHILE rebuilding. It does happen. He also happened to have the Eli Manning situation in his lap, which was he had a vet QB who could still play at 36 years old and two years remaining on his contract. That is not an easy situation/decision to navigate, especially when the player isn't the root of the problem.
One of the issues I have is this sympathy you and others pedal for Gettleman. Implying that DG deserves a Mulligan for stepping into a bad situation.
I really struggle with that. He knew what he was getting into and instantly synced up with Mara that Eli was still the path to success. And proceeded to invest heavily to make that happen. Now the ripple effects of many of those decisions - many poor ones - have created an additional set back and cost us time in this rebuild.
So he dug another hole for the team. Yet he gets all of this credit for fixing the hole that Reese dug. How do you reconcile that?
The team he inherited was bad, but GMs aren't typically fired for putting together good teams. I don't quite buy he stepped into a uniquely challenging situation. Hard, but not tragic.
In the pinned thread on cutting Ogletree/Martin, I listed out the 22 UFAs acquired in 2018 for instance.
That's a pretty decent sample size, and honestly I don't believe any of those players improved the position.
The bad reads on UFA and the very bad Shurmur hire are independently alarming.
Whether he inherited a bad team or horrific team, some of these independent factors can and should be better.
Not so much forced as hired the guy who aligned with him.
I have a hard time believing that too - and DG's first moves were like a bad repeat of 2012, trying to retool on the fly and get competitive ASAP when it was clear the team had much bigger problems than what could be repaired in one offseason.
I think it's a lot more likely that Gettleman's main advantage as Reese's successor was his familiarity with the Giants organization and his like mindedness when it came to the moves that needed to be made. Otherwise, not only was he forced to retain Eli, but he was forced to try to patch things together for a quick run as well?
Quote:
is that posters (generally as I see it) have a hard time separating the old from the new.
Dave Gettleman has provided over two offseasons thus far. It's just not enough to undo the previous 10 years of poor drafting. It's just not.
If you look at it at a very basic level, he needed to rebuild and entire 53 man roster. In two offseasons there's really nothing left. That doesn't mean that he messed up. It just means that we are finally starting at a clean slate from a roster and financial standpoing. We are now building from the ground up.
And I get the "he mis-evaluated the roster he inherited" argument. I get it. But there are prior instances of teams being able to make some moves and tweaks and still remain competitive WHILE rebuilding. It does happen. He also happened to have the Eli Manning situation in his lap, which was he had a vet QB who could still play at 36 years old and two years remaining on his contract. That is not an easy situation/decision to navigate, especially when the player isn't the root of the problem.
One of the issues I have is this sympathy you and others pedal for Gettleman. Implying that DG deserves a Mulligan for stepping into a bad situation.
I really struggle with that. He knew what he was getting into and instantly synced up with Mara that Eli was still the path to success. And proceeded to invest heavily to make that happen. Now the ripple effects of many of those decisions - many poor ones - have created an additional set back and cost us time in this rebuild.
So he dug another hole for the team. Yet he gets all of this credit for fixing the hole that Reese dug. How do you reconcile that?
And I did not see that as picking...I saw that as places where a good poster could have been engaging towards us both getting to a more solid ground. I thank you for those discussions.
I fully agree that for me my preferential way to engage feels much harder in the current environment so perhaps we are finding the same things from different directions
For example, FMIC has gotten under your skin. I get the reasons why and the worst exchanges where unnecessary. But you should know there is no way to "win" those kinds of exchanges. Its one of the reasons I tried to take you elsewhere on some of those threads. Let others see over the top as over the top and keep on doing your level best posting
If it were me, Id shrug all that off more McL. But that's easier for me to say because I have known and like FMIC for a long time. I certainly wouldn't let that wreck your experience. I certainly would not keep a scorecard and try to win the last word with posters ( I do that to my own detriment all the time0
Most fights are about the other guy. And most things that set people off are traits they half see in themselves and don't like about themselves. How else could they see and find "reasons' to respond?
Take care and see you down the road.
Maybe once past the draft the emotional content on some subjects will die down enough that they are debateable
I didn't mean "picking" in a negative sense as in "picking on"... More like the flap of a band aid that is sticking up (the flaw) and you pulled at it. Sorry if that was unclear. As I said, I've been posting much less lately. And honestly besides being busy. it has also been a conscious step back from the tribalness and combativeness that discussions have degenerated into. Which has been the general theme of my posts in this thread. And in fact the general theme of most of my posts lately when I have posted.
Take a look at these threads. Almost always one of the first things trotted out is that critics are still just butt hurt over Darnold. After that, its the hiring process, after that is the buffoonery. Its all about bundling all the critics up, putting them into a neat package that can be more easily attacked. The critics, or "realists", are a varied array posters who arrived at their opinions in various ways. What's more, not all of them even agree with each other.
I stepped back almost 3 months ago... During that time I've seen Terps driven off by Joey, which seems to have been taken as some sort of victory by one tribe and opened a floodgate of venom directed at the realists. Now Googs has been banned as well, and there were some posters reveling in that "victory" as well. If you take a step back, but still pay attention, the tone shift has been quite noticeable.
Quote:
.
Not so much forced as hired the guy who aligned with him.
I don't buy that Mara forced it on him either. Nor this crap about that Eagle game video after the fact.
DG was all-in on Eli for a few more years and missed it. Just like he did when his wrongly assessed the roster in the beginning too.
Quote:
In comment 14819329 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Actually hate our 2X SB MVP QB who beat the best team the NFL ever had and then did it again 4 years later.
Are you really surprised?
I really don't think any Giants fans "actually hate" Eli Manning. I do think though 8+ years since the Giants last won a playoff game with Eli at QB you do have fans who think there should be a change at the position.
Seems like hyperbole.
Come on PJ, you've been on this board long enough to have read some of the nonsense posted about him over the years. That is quite a soft-sell claiming that they just wanted a change.
He has been vilified by many people on this board for years. He even caught crap over the 2016 GB playoff game where he had something 3 TD passes dropped and our top 3 receivers combined for a whopping 121 yards and were outperformed by Will Tye and Tavarres King
Fair, and I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak as an Eli laggard. I was not a big fan of Eli all the way up to the 2007 season, and maybe even into 2007.
But I never hated him. He obviously won me over.
I just think hate is a strong word to use about Eli.
Maybe I'm wrong.
Quote:
.
I have a hard time believing that too - and DG's first moves were like a bad repeat of 2012, trying to retool on the fly and get competitive ASAP when it was clear the team had much bigger problems than what could be repaired in one offseason.
I think it's a lot more likely that Gettleman's main advantage as Reese's successor was his familiarity with the Giants organization and his like mindedness when it came to the moves that needed to be made. Otherwise, not only was he forced to retain Eli, but he was forced to try to patch things together for a quick run as well?
Agreed. I wanted someone from outside the organization, but was fine with DG because I thought he had a track record of doing the things I liked: making tough, analytical football decisions. His track record at CAR was encouraging as well. The moves he made that first off-season worried me immediately.
Quote:
Very fair all around
And I did not see that as picking...I saw that as places where a good poster could have been engaging towards us both getting to a more solid ground. I thank you for those discussions.
I fully agree that for me my preferential way to engage feels much harder in the current environment so perhaps we are finding the same things from different directions
For example, FMIC has gotten under your skin. I get the reasons why and the worst exchanges where unnecessary. But you should know there is no way to "win" those kinds of exchanges. Its one of the reasons I tried to take you elsewhere on some of those threads. Let others see over the top as over the top and keep on doing your level best posting
If it were me, Id shrug all that off more McL. But that's easier for me to say because I have known and like FMIC for a long time. I certainly wouldn't let that wreck your experience. I certainly would not keep a scorecard and try to win the last word with posters ( I do that to my own detriment all the time0
Most fights are about the other guy. And most things that set people off are traits they half see in themselves and don't like about themselves. How else could they see and find "reasons' to respond?
Take care and see you down the road.
Maybe once past the draft the emotional content on some subjects will die down enough that they are debateable
I didn't mean "picking" in a negative sense as in "picking on"... More like the flap of a band aid that is sticking up (the flaw) and you pulled at it. Sorry if that was unclear. As I said, I've been posting much less lately. And honestly besides being busy. it has also been a conscious step back from the tribalness and combativeness that discussions have degenerated into. Which has been the general theme of my posts in this thread. And in fact the general theme of most of my posts lately when I have posted.
Take a look at these threads. Almost always one of the first things trotted out is that critics are still just butt hurt over Darnold. After that, its the hiring process, after that is the buffoonery. Its all about bundling all the critics up, putting them into a neat package that can be more easily attacked. The critics, or "realists", are a varied array posters who arrived at their opinions in various ways. What's more, not all of them even agree with each other.
I stepped back almost 3 months ago... During that time I've seen Terps driven off by Joey, which seems to have been taken as some sort of victory by one tribe and opened a floodgate of venom directed at the realists. Now Googs has been banned as well, and there were some posters reveling in that "victory" as well. If you take a step back, but still pay attention, the tone shift has been quite noticeable.
Ive never been one for personal attacks. We all have our moments though. That said, I believe the shift that you noticed was from people that got tired of getting beat over the head with pessimism and negativity on every thread. It was possibly the most overwhelmingly negative period in my near twenty year tenure here. Any positive was shouted down from thread to thread, and if you didn’t agree you were a _______ fan club member or sympathizer. People who normally don’t even post much were drawn out of hibernation.
Passed at getting a replacement for Eli, although still a little early to tell.
Saquon was a good pick.
Draft is an incomplete, because it's too early.
Lots of wasted money, although it Odell early, picked up a lot of bad fa players.
Jury is not out yet, but it's not looking good. Really hoping JJ can turn it around and show us he is a decent GM that made a bad coaching hire, that lead to bad FA picks.
Is it more likely:
1) fans harbored a secret hatred for Manning
2) fans could see the obvious outcome of high cost, more losing, and little benefit to the team
Britt, we may not agree on much, but I actually like you as a poster... A lot...
I think of you as one of the good guys, and I have a lot of admiration for you with how you held up under a pretty withering assault. Some of it unnecessarily personal. And you never descended into the petty attacks.
I think for you in particular it probably felt more overwhelming because as the team's play descended into the far depths, you were the sole defender of your faith. You bore that weight almost entirely alone. I can understand your feelings in this manner.
The core/vocal group of realists is a pretty small group. They are for the most part respectful posters. Admittedly, there were a handful of times I felt compelled to call one or another of them of them out for behaving badly. But in general, the core group is respectful. There are other posters, who at least I do not consider part of that core group. The posters outside the core group are far more likely to engage in the ad-hominem attacks that I think are now being turned on all the core group of realists unjustly.
It might be a coincidence. It seems as though, just about everyone that thought Eli was done and thought we should move on from Eli disliked DG from the moment he said the Eagle game was not a mirage. FWIW, I hated that he said that and also thought Eli was toast. However, it did not make me hate the guy. From the cheap seats, some people sure seem to hate him. If he got the QB right and the new coach right we might have something. I can't know that until the end of the 2020 season. I think it is possible both of those decision are not just good, but home runs. Some of the criticisms of the guy could look pretty foolish by the end of next year. I lean towards DG has not been good enough but I am unwilling to be definitive and insulting about it and risk looking foolish.
I said it here or on another thread that if Jones turns into a legit franchise QB who wins playoff games and challenges for trophies then DG has indeed delivered his best work. And many of the gaffes will be a distant memory. Legacy sealed.
I don't take the hate stuff seriously. It's probably more deep frustration with the team performance and how DG conducts himself.
For me, and I seem to be in the minority on this, I think Gettleman has a responsibility to act a certain way in front of any mic and instill confidence that the team is on course. He is a member of the C-suite. Act like one and be prepared.
:-)
Look, its relatively easy to be a Giant fan when things are going well or even average. But when you have sucked like this team has for the better part of the past decade, losing probably does create a bit of separation between those fans that can see the flaws/issues and those that would rather see "around" those flaws.
Not everybody has to root/post the same. Not everybody has to be optimistic just like that don't have to be pessimistic, but they can still be fans nevertheless. Fans that may even post their views with sensationalism from time to time, or all the time. And if they do, is it because they are morons...or just that's how they choose to act as Giant fans?
:-)
Look, its relatively easy to be a Giant fan when things are going well or even average. But when you have sucked like this team has for the better part of the past decade, losing probably does create a bit of separation between those fans that can see the flaws/issues and those that would rather see "around" those flaws.
Not everybody has to root/post the same. Not everybody has to be optimistic just like that don't have to be pessimistic, but they can still be fans nevertheless. Fans that may even post their views with sensationalism from time to time, or all the time. And if they do, is it because they are morons...or just that's how they choose to act as Giant fans?
LBH, I pretty much agree with your post.
You were not really here to see the evolution of the realists. Terps and bw were there from the start. I hated the Barkley pick, but wanted to wait and see. I was critical of his moves individually, but I finally had enough around game 5 or 6 this year. That was about the time the "core" group came together it was only about 7 or 8 of us that had decided by that time both PS and DG should go. THe larger group of realists were swayed by the teams continued dismal performance, and by the weight of many of the arguments of the core group.
Offseason seems to be the best months to be a Giant fan, at least lately. So with some bit of optimism maybe DG has a better free agent period in his 3rd year on the job, or at least neutral.
The key to me is still the draft, and I really believe we need the fates to come together and get us a nice trade-down whereas we can add a few red-chip guys instead of one maybe "blue-chip". Still way too many units on this team that need upgrading.
Offseason seems to be the best months to be a Giant fan, at least lately. So with some bit of optimism maybe DG has a better free agent period in his 3rd year on the job, or at least neutral.
The key to me is still the draft, and I really believe we need the fates to come together and get us a nice trade-down whereas we can add a few red-chip guys instead of one maybe "blue-chip". Still way too many units on this team that need upgrading.
Yep... I'm reconciled to DG's presence for another year. And I hope for the best. I hope that the hand of God touches him, and all his future decisions turn to Gold... I harbor no hate for the guy.
Do you get that anyone who labels themselves as such is really not approachable or worth talking to for their world is closed to only those who recognize their self nominated superiority?
Then you feel picked on when folks think its an unearned posture?
That self nominated self certain and arrogant tone is at odds with any cloudy situation that is moving rapidly and cannot be penetrated with the very limited knowledge any of us have.
In life are you attracted to smug people?
Do you want to interact with them or stay away from their arrogance?
Why would anyone adopt a self limiting way of being?
None of those people are realists. None. Neither am I or anyone else posting about the state of the Giants.
We are projecting. Nothing more. Projecting.
Humility would serve us all well.
Humans, being human, have a very high chance of fooling themselves.
And doesn't an intelligent person change as new information and perspectives get taken in?
What's more by self nominating as a group you are nominating all others as "others"
How's that square with being analytically sound and only fact based?
Not a debate I'm asking to have nor wish to keep going. I pose them as questions that might be worthwhile for you to self examine over time.
To me. Self nominating into a label or group is a mental occlusion that hardens into blind spots
As a point of logic, No one can be realistic until the results are in. Not possible
And No one can be realistic until you know for sure what the degree of marching orders and constraints DG had to work with. We dont know so we all speculate this aspect. Which makes no one realistic. We cant be. We have to adjust to the reality of not knowing.
A realist in this situation is the ones who confess they dont know and get comfortable with that "realism"
Way too much speculation of all different kinds from all angles for anyone to be a realist. And no one knows how the story plays out just yet.
That's not me talking. That's just reality
I was actually a proud "Pollyanna" then.
Don't really care if you call me a pessimist, at least with the current team and its state... Whatever...
What I don't like is the broad brush painting of everybody in the group as Smug. That's a word I usually hear from another poster. Not you.
Look at some of the predictions in the early season threads at some of the outsized expectations many, many posters had.
As it turned out, those expectations were unrealistic. Thus the pessimistic voices were the "Realists" once the results were in. I didn't see the term being widely revived until near the end of the season... So not quite what you are thinking. But you are doing your analysis these days from one side of the tribal views. Something the Bill from a year ago would have shunned.
Its about getting you to think harder and more in depth. Just you. The way you are thinking. No one else
Not the term and not about tribes or sides or labels.
Btw, you resist being self reflective and noticing that you are the one who could be seeing things incorrectly. Psychologically well defended. And attack the messenger in order to resist the point.
Going to be hard to be a good analyst
Ah well
And they hardened because you are angry at a particular poster and conflated from there
You are better than that
Balanced against his gamble on DJ and Barks, for me, the irrational trades and signings and letting guys go for nothing and the Shurmur signing and the bizarre press conferences are enough to convince me that he’s way out of his capability set.
Thank you, Ty.
Its about getting you to think harder and more in depth. Just you. The way you are thinking. No one else
Not the term and not about tribes or sides or labels.
Btw, you resist being self reflective and noticing that you are the one who could be seeing things incorrectly. Psychologically well defended. And attack the messenger in order to resist the point.
Going to be hard to be a good analyst
Ah well
No, I'm not eager to perpetuate the tribalism. Part of the reason I stepped back, as I said before. But I will call it as I see it.
I have actually never used the term "realist" until this thread. I saw it starting to be used often late in the season, but I never self proclaimed it. I only started using it after you used it as a smear earlier. You are better than that.
Mara's impatience with the status quo fired or caused the firing of 3 HC/ One GM/One head of scouting/ 6 coordinators and about 30 coaches in five years trying to get a much better foundation for the team. Facts.
Fault the execution/fault some moves...but the mossy old does nothing Jints Central motif lives on without full alignment with the actual facts only in some heads on BBI.
And they consider themselves realists.
I purposely took on the moniker after that.
Which came first Bill, the chicken or the egg?
A team loses 10 or more games in 5/6 seasons, fires 3 coaches in 5 years, jettisons virtually all of the players, spends deep into their future budget not once but twice with virtually nothing to show. Something deep and broad is wrong. The last two years haven't shown the growth to warrant new trust. When a common refrain is "what was the alternative," I don't get convinced.
On to coach number 4 in 6 years. Now we're entering blind squirrel territory.
The problems most certainly start with Mara. He's THE reason for this spiral.
But Mara has anointed DG head of all football operations. Completely responsible for building this team. So he shoulders a ton of blame until proven otherwise...
A team loses 10 or more games in 5/6 seasons, fires 3 coaches in 5 years, jettisons virtually all of the players, spends deep into their future budget not once but twice with virtually nothing to show. Something deep and broad is wrong. The last two years haven't shown the growth to warrant new trust. When a common refrain is "what was the alternative," I don't get convinced.
On to coach number 4 in 6 years. Now we're entering blind squirrel territory.
I tend to agree that DG is the symptom, not the disease.
That Super Bowl win hid a lot and the problems of today were set in spiral 2010 to 2016.
Even the win one more time with Eli mistake was set in motion 2010-2016.
Lets say you did want to win with Eli one more time. Why was the backup Geno Smith? How is that for preparation? Why stay with Flowers and Hart as opposed to cut one year earlier? They were habit, learning and technique messes from the get go. On and On.
Im not saying DG had a mess as an excuse for DG's pros and cons. I have no idea who ( and it might have been DG for all we know) finally woke up the mindset and said "we got a big mess".
Im saying the mess was not Reese and Ross (symptoms) and far before 2016. Sleeping when the core success factors were gone was the problem.
The proof is that when they needed to go bold they got it done ( results to be seen but the decision set was in the necessary bolder category).
What person though the strengths of Eli matched a WCO? The weaknesses of ELI matched a WCO. that's just one example
What I quickly learned and learned each time is that any mental energy past the basic understanding of how they got bad was completely pointless and foolish.
The only thing you can do is focus on the few things that are best to do going forward
We are spending ( me too) endless games of Clue with no chance to ever figure out who shot the butler and when.
We are beyond impotent when we discuss who's to blame and why. It doesnt matter now, we cant change the owner and we wont ever know how and when some decisions were made and what the colonel thought when the old maid suddenky fell down the stairs in the dark.
No organization I ever knew was really as bad as thought when bad. Or as good when things looked good.
Nor does any decision in a turnaround look good until later. Nothing feels good. What you do most often looks foolish and the outside world has endless and often pointless ammunition to tie you up so they feel better about themselves.
Forward or leave are the choices.
Nothing about messy situations is provable or can be pinned down. And if it could you still can only go forward in some compromised way or walk away.
First step for me is to stop caring about Clue
So I see one of the jobs done badly and I suspect there is a lot of sloppiness elsewhere. I don’t expect excellence in public speaking. that’s not a job requirement. But the train wreck of DG’s interviews is on another level of bad.
We can harp on about the poor OL protecting him but this team wasn’t winning anything with a QB like Eli after 2015. He was just as responsible for this awful team the last few seasons as anyone.
And like you, when I see one role of the job so badly done its unusual when all the others ones are being done well.
It could be that the entire nyg fo is more than bitter about the media and just sees the job as keeping them at bay.
The New York Yankees took that approach from Mattingly onwards. Just saw the media as an enemy and made it hard for them to tell stories and drive distractions into the organization.
Now that was in the tailspin years of Steinbrenner and the most toxic years of Levine...but the under siege mentality happens to teams in sports.
Winning kinda solves that for the media cant stray too far from good results
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And it was from a fairly small, but extremely vocal, group.
Britt, we may not agree on much, but I actually like you as a poster... A lot...
I think of you as one of the good guys, and I have a lot of admiration for you with how you held up under a pretty withering assault. Some of it unnecessarily personal. And you never descended into the petty attacks.
I think for you in particular it probably felt more overwhelming because as the team's play descended into the far depths, you were the sole defender of your faith. You bore that weight almost entirely alone. I can understand your feelings in this manner.
The core/vocal group of realists is a pretty small group. They are for the most part respectful posters. Admittedly, there were a handful of times I felt compelled to call one or another of them of them out for behaving badly. But in general, the core group is respectful. There are other posters, who at least I do not consider part of that core group. The posters outside the core group are far more likely to engage in the ad-hominem attacks that I think are now being turned on all the core group of realists unjustly.
Appreciate that.
Going back to my original point, I don't believe I was the sole "defender of my faith". I just believe, as I stated originally, there was a silent majority that had just gone tired of the negativity over the years and stopped posting because they were frustrated. Frustrated with the Giants, and quite honestly, frustrated with the level of discourse over the Giants struggles. I know this because I keep in touch with many of them in spaces that are not BBI. I think when the negativity reached fever pitch around the Saquon pick and continued into the frenzy it did, people came out of "retirement" so to say and just posted mad because they were fed up with it all. Many still have not, but they are out there.
One thing Bill said that really resonated with me (and I don't think it was on this thread but one of the previous many on this topic), more than ever this place just became an echo chamber. And the echo became overwhelming for many, myself included. And so I became one of the sole "defenders of the faith" because I just felt like I had to put on the breaks and say "wait a minute, things are bad, but it's not ALL bad.". Because barely anybody was doing that, but it's true. There are positive things to build on and we have to focus on those to move this thing forward. There is no sense in rehashing right vs. wrong, how we got here, etc... Exercise in futility. This is where we are.
"Do you want to be here?"
"This is where I am"
-Odell Beckham/Lil Wayne, October 2018.
So I see one of the jobs done badly and I suspect there is a lot of sloppiness elsewhere. I don’t expect excellence in public speaking. that’s not a job requirement. But the train wreck of DG’s interviews is on another level of bad.
That’s been a point I have harped on. And I do the same exercise - if Gettleman is this unprepared and disorganized when he faces out to the public/media than why should I not think those traits exist inside the walls of Jints Central? These face outs should be layups, but with Gettleman they become landslides. And I really don’t know how anyone can feel confident that the organization is in good hands when he can’t do the easy stuff.
I watched Judge’s presser the other day. I have no idea what to expect from as the HC but he controls the presser, stays on message, and gives the great impression of having a plan. Whether it’s the right plan, or if he has the skills to execute the plan, remains to be seen, but he conducts himself like a professional and is buttoned up.
Then Gettleman gets up there and it’s hard to tell if that’s the GM of the Giants or the team plumber.
If the goal is to in-point-of-fact figure something out, I can see something less than satisfying on the other side.
Exchanging opinions with good intentioned people, and if by some miracle learning something about football, is plenty enough for me to come back.
Britt, I think you hit something on the head in a way: "There are positive things to build on and we have to focus on those to move this thing forward."
Who's the "we" and what are we moving "forward?"
We (loosely), being the Giants, should also look at what they have, the young core they've built, and continue to add talent to that.
We (loosely), being the Giants, should also look at what they have, the young core they've built, and continue to add talent to that.
That's fair. Can you respect that some feel it's not an echo chamber and the Giants haven't built a young core yet?
The echo chamber exists on both sides. It is just as strong, if not stronger with the perma-optimists.
At this point, it's very well documented where those posters think it all went wrong. Very well documented.
If you want to move on from blaming Reese and Ross, and to a lesser extent Shurmur and the other coaches, I’m all for that.
At this point, it's very well documented where those posters think it all went wrong. Very well documented.
Can you accept that some fans don't get angry when they look back, and that they feel the doers of what is done are still doing?
Bill's right that none of us can truly know what's going on internally in the organization......but we all know the results, and they've been awful.
I don't see any reason to give them the benefit of the doubt until we see real, tangible improvement in results. Right now, all optimism is based solely on projection and wishcasting.
Do you think there are some that are still unaware of the record?
Do you think there are some that are still unaware of the record?
It’s just as informative as predicting a 10-6 record every single year.
Refuting that he isn't the most incompetent guy in the NFL isn't lavishing praise. It is just counter-pointing the overly negative takes on him.
I guess you have, because they certainly exist. Not as many as a year ago, since his team failed miserably for the second straight year, but they're still out there.
Quote:
is informative or inflammatory?
Do you think there are some that are still unaware of the record?
It’s just as informative as predicting a 10-6 record every single year.
On a pre-season predict the record thread? Isn't that the place for such a post?
And Id say I am learning the least amount about football from folks on the site at this time.
Now its true that last year was the most frustrating time to be a fan of the NYG since I was on BBI, so maybe that's a piece of it; and certainly the product they send out the last few years makes it hard to concentrate on the football content but for me, too many threads feel like we are all stuck in a badly written soap opera but think we are still talking about How The Giants Turn.
As always, take care and stay well my friend
And Id say I am learning the least amount about football from folks on the site at this time.
Now its true that last year was the most frustrating time to be a fan of the NYG since I was on BBI, so maybe that's a piece of it; and certainly the product they send out the last few years makes it hard to concentrate on the football content but for me, too many threads feel like we are all stuck in a badly written soap opera but think we are still talking about How The Giants Turn.
As always, take care and stay well my friend
Thanks for an honest and thoughtful response. My take is the negativity is a proportionate reaction to the quality of the product. I've never put more value on positive views inherently, maybe that's a character flaw for the analysts couch.
I am fascinated in the sense that this feels exactly how not to run a business after a prolonged period of success.
What irks me the most, though, is that the problems he identified when he was brought on board two years ago still exist. The offensive line is still a mess, and the defense is weak on all three levels. I hope some of that can be fixed with a better scheme and better coaching, but good coaching - even great coaching - can only take you so far if you don't have the talent to benefit from it. It seems to me that the Giants are pretty talent-deficient.
Anyway, I'm hesitant to say that this is a pivotal year for Gettleman, because, honestly I have no idea how short or long his "leash" is, so to speak, but I figure ownership expects him to put a much better product on the field than he has for the past two years. So, again, it's wait-and-see for me. I don't have much faith, but I do have hope, and I'll lean on that for as long as I can.
It's indeed mostly defensive remarks, but they are in attacking fashion at the posters themselves in order to provide deflection from the GM/front office. Posters who aren't willing to give the benefit of the doubt or are skeptical enough of Gettleman with his recent set of missteps to get this ship moving in the right direction.
But to be fair, I will be on the look out for those offering up lavish praise to DG.
So Mara thinks we have talent, but that talent wasn't being properly developed or deployed by the previous coaching regime. So he cut Shurmur; and in Dave He Trusts lives on.
Okay. But then he hires a complete unknown again for that coaching side. So that's three HC hires in a row who really haven't had real or successful HC experience (hard to quantify Shurmur's tenure in Cleveland).
While I think Judge sounds pretty good thus far, who the hell knows what to expect. And we could just as easily be back in this predicament in two years.
So do you measure Gettleman now with a HC who was never a HC in high school? If Judge starts to grow discontent with DG how do you really take that seriously from a guy who has never been in that role? If anything, the hiring of Judge, IMV, has bought DG even more time. And I'm not sure any of us can say that's a comforting this...
This is why I was in favor of a complete overhaul. Bring in all new people to run the organization. Or let the HC be HC/Head of Football Ops.
Now we're back in this loop that we've seen the last 6 years...where the ending has always been a bad one.
Same applies to the linebackers. He acquires Ogletree who is essentially a box LB with subpar movement skills. He's big and strong but can't make plays in space. If you can't run with it you can't tackle it or defend it. That's today's game.
I'm hoping DG self scouts and takes these type of failures into account and adapts his thinking. If he doesn't we better hope Judge can make him understand the types of players he actually needs to install his schemes.
Ogletree's strength was his ability to move ande his range. He's not particularly stout at the point of attack, but he was very good in coverage in the early part of his career.
He actually started out as a safety at Georgia and was a track star in High School
He was a better college player and never lived up to his draft status because he didn't have the range and movement skills to succeed in the NFL.
I actually liked him as a player, but thought the trade was idiotic at the time.
Refuting that he isn't the most incompetent guy in the NFL isn't lavishing praise. It is just counter-pointing the overly negative takes on him.
Just search "Gettledogman" or "Jay on the Island" or a handful of others.
They absolutely exist. And they're often more obnoxious and extreme than even the most Terpsian negative posters.