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Another DG thread

kennyd : 2/26/2020 12:56 am
I know, I know, the last thing we need is another DG thread. I just read the most recent one about "his wings being clipped" and I really don't get it. I've been a fan since the late 70's so I've seen enough to have been around the block.

The dislike (hatred?) for this guy is really over the top. I think we can all agree that he inherited a pretty shitty roster two years ago and I'd like to think we can all agree (granted it's early to tell definitively) that he had two good drafts including finding what looks like our future franchise QB. No doubt he has had his misses in FA and at least one peculiar trade in LW (but personally I think he's a player and will be resigned).

Can someone explain this to me? Is it his persona and the way he speaks to the media? Do you really just hate his player moves (if so what has he done that's so heinous-and don't bring up the LW trade, we've all seen enough about that). Do you dislike his drafts that much?

I'm not saying I'm a huge fan at all but the hatred seems nuts to me.
You're talking about a fan base that a portion  
montanagiant : 2/26/2020 12:59 am : link
Actually hate our 2X SB MVP QB who beat the best team the NFL ever had and then did it again 4 years later.

Are you really surprised?
RE: You're talking about a fan base that a portion  
kennyd : 2/26/2020 1:02 am : link
In comment 14819329 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Actually hate our 2X SB MVP QB who beat the best team the NFL ever had and then did it again 4 years later.

Are you really surprised?


Fair enough. I find both things very perplexing
RE: RE: You're talking about a fan base that a portion  
montanagiant : 2/26/2020 1:08 am : link
In comment 14819330 kennyd said:
Quote:
In comment 14819329 montanagiant said:


Quote:


Actually hate our 2X SB MVP QB who beat the best team the NFL ever had and then did it again 4 years later.

Are you really surprised?



Fair enough. I find both things very perplexing

Absolutely, Kenny, I'm right there with you
I suspect, its frustration of losing for 9 years....  
George from PA : 2/26/2020 1:43 am : link
That spills over, as the losing continues....

Plus, the media vitriol gets transposed....I feel the media hates the guy, as he lies to them, so they constantly write crap about him....and the "fans" follow.....

And then

The handful, of hindsight is 20/20 gms at bbi feel they can do better.....and drafting a RB @2 also had the analyticals going crazy.

I think he has done a ton of good and has transformed the Giants into a very young team with potential and a ton of cap room...if Daniel turns out to be a franchise QB, that would be amazing...now, he hasn't been perfect, but much of it was coach driven.....like Bathea wasn't him.

His 1st draft looked better in the 1st year.....was it all bad coaching? Maybe, we can confirm it this year.....as this coaching staff, will have these guys prepared. LW was a desperate move,if signed and player evolves accordingly....it will turn out fine, but very risky.

I felt he needed 3 years.....so I am giving him 3 years. So,

Very important off season for him.
A short while ago  
UberAlias : 2/26/2020 5:18 am : link
This board was largely pro DG. I found myself coming off as anti Gettlemen. Now it’s turned on him with some opinions over the top I tend to find myself more in his defense. That said, I do agree that DG has lost some power. Joe Judge was brought in as a program builder and I tend to agree that will come with a price of loss of power to DG. The alignment of power NYG has embraced for years is evolving.
I think the reasons why people don’t like DG  
PhilSimms15 : 2/26/2020 5:26 am : link
Have a lot more to do with his hiring than just his last two years as GM.
He is old school; he eschews analytics; he was a typical Giants choice of another organizational retread; the search did not seem particularly exhaustive and then he goes out and produces two really bad teams.

Now if you like him, you point to Daniel Jones, pretty good drafts, and getting rid of most of Reece’s guys.

If you don’t you point to lousy free agent signings, a bizarre trade for LW and more losing.
I dont think his 2 drafts have been good.  
WalterSobchak : 2/26/2020 5:58 am : link
He was picking 2nd overall and 6th overall in every damn round. I dont feel like we have any probowlers on this roster except maybe Barkley (who I would not of selected due to having no oline) . Sure he has selcted a few who look like they can play in this league . Lawrence , Slayton , Jones , maybe Connolly . But jury is still out bigtime . I would be willing to suffer another bad year over going 7-9 and missing playoffs, if it meant DG is gone and we insert a competant GM to run things. Thats how little faith I have in this clueless dinosaur.
They didn’t get their Darnold,  
Big Blue '56 : 2/26/2020 6:28 am : link
Boo-hoo and it has escalated from there, unless you considered a minor signing of Stewart significant. I didn’t want him here and I was disappointed in his hire, but he essentially had to clean up the Reese messes. His drafts have been good, perhaps turn out great and his hits and misses in FA have been pretty much on par with EVERYONE ELSE in the league.

To me? It absolutely started, BIG TIME with Darnold(or QB of choice)..
some people never liked the DG hire  
RobCarpenter : 2/26/2020 7:10 am : link
And they have been upset about it ever since. To them it seemed like the Giants were playing it safe instead of making an innovative hire.

In any event, the jury is still out on DG and it's too soon to make any clear judgments. Team rebuilding isn't done overnight.
RE: some people never liked the DG hire  
Big Blue '56 : 2/26/2020 7:37 am : link
In comment 14819373 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
And they have been upset about it ever since. To them it seemed like the Giants were playing it safe instead of making an innovative hire.

In any event, the jury is still out on DG and it's too soon to make any clear judgments. Team rebuilding isn't done overnight.


A simple, spot on and excellent post, imv.
Rob  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 7:49 am : link
well said

as BB said
I never liked the hire...  
bw in dc : 2/26/2020 8:06 am : link
from day one. I didn’t/don’t think Gettleman was that impressive in his GM role as Carolina and 100% believe he was solely hired because he was a card carrying member of the “Giants Way”, something Mara strongly prefers in that role. But I think that was the very last we needed in that role - old and safe.

(The Accorsi role really pissed me off, too. It was clear Mara was giving Accorsi a chance to redeem himself after he recommended the hiring of Reese. So a lot of the Gettleman man hire is on Mara.)

And based on where we are record wise under Gettleman, his coaching hires, and the holes that continue to exist in the roster (both starters and depth) per Gettleman’s personnel decisions, we are arguably just as bad since the day he arrived.

His personality and press conferences just reaffirm to me that he’s completely unfit for the role as face of the franchise. The lack of preparation has been embarrassing when he’s facing the media.

Remember the shirt of Goodell with the clown nose? They should make one for Gettleman. It would be a monster seller...

RE: I never liked the hire...  
Big Blue '56 : 2/26/2020 8:20 am : link
In comment 14819393 bw in dc said:
Quote:
from day one. I didn’t/don’t think Gettleman was that impressive in his GM role as Carolina and 100% believe he was solely hired because he was a card carrying member of the “Giants Way”, something Mara strongly prefers in that role. But I think that was the very last we needed in that role - old and safe.

(The Accorsi role really pissed me off, too. It was clear Mara was giving Accorsi a chance to redeem himself after he recommended the hiring of Reese. So a lot of the Gettleman man hire is on Mara.)

And based on where we are record wise under Gettleman, his coaching hires, and the holes that continue to exist in the roster (both starters and depth) per Gettleman’s personnel decisions, we are arguably just as bad since the day he arrived.

His personality and press conferences just reaffirm to me that he’s completely unfit for the role as face of the franchise. The lack of preparation has been embarrassing when he’s facing the media.

Remember the shirt of Goodell with the clown nose? They should make one for Gettleman. It would be a monster seller...


Why would anyone give a fuck about his personality and press conferences? George Young or no George Young, Parcells was the face of the franchise and his personality and press conferences were even more obnoxious and I loved the Tuna.
RE: They didn’t get their Darnold,  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/26/2020 8:29 am : link
In comment 14819364 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Boo-hoo and it has escalated from there, unless you considered a minor signing of Stewart significant. I didn’t want him here and I was disappointed in his hire, but he essentially had to clean up the Reese messes. His drafts have been good, perhaps turn out great and his hits and misses in FA have been pretty much on par with EVERYONE ELSE in the league.

To me? It absolutely started, BIG TIME with Darnold(or QB of choice)..

There are probably some for whom that was the turning point. For me it started at the very beginning with his terrible evaluation of the roster in the 2018 offseason which, by DG's own admission, wasted a year of the rebuild timeline and probably caused some pieces to be added in a suboptimal sequence. On top of that, it's been his absolutely abysmal work in rebuilding the offensive line, with multiple bad free agent signings and a bizarre attachment to Jon Halapio, who everyone but DG can see is a liability.

I think he's just better suited to either take an established foundation to a higher level, or to be a top lieutenant for a front office during a rebuild. His moves carry too much inconsistency to reflect a well-conceived plan and the discipline to stick to that script as much as possible. He seems reactionary, which can be an asset when a team is already good and the GM needs to patch holes and build the underlying talent pipeline based on opportunity, but in a full-scale rebuild, it's not nearly as helpful.

And I'm reminded that even though Accorsi endorsed Gettleman in 2017, he did originally pluck Reese as his successor ahead of DG. Maybe it's simply wishful thinking to expect that Accorsi's first instinct was wrong.

But Reese was not especially good - this is not intended as a defense of his work. Just that it seemed stale to go back to the same lineage when the entire operation really needed a 360 review. That was always less likely to happen with a familiar face than with someone new.
Just look..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/26/2020 8:35 am : link
at the fucking idiot who started that thread.

It is Giants38, a poster who refers to Gettleman as DSG.

Dave Shitbag Gettleman.

When you have some moron referring to a grown man as a shitbag repeatedly, you can basically ignore anything from that source.
BB56...  
bw in dc : 2/26/2020 8:40 am : link
I expect a GM, essentially an officer of the company, to sound prepared, organized, and professional.

If you prefer the buffoonery approach than you should be pleased.
RE: BB56...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/26/2020 8:41 am : link
In comment 14819411 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I expect a GM, essentially an officer of the company, to sound prepared, organized, and professional.

If you prefer the buffoonery approach than you should be pleased.


LOL. The hell you do!

The Redskins have been trotting out trainwrecks for GM's for years.
RE: BB56...  
Big Blue '56 : 2/26/2020 8:42 am : link
In comment 14819411 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I expect a GM, essentially an officer of the company, to sound prepared, organized, and professional.

If you prefer the buffoonery approach than you should be pleased.


I was quite pleased with the Tuna and he was a buffoon. A lovable one, but a buffoon nevertheless..
I thing DG is a symptom of a bigger problem  
ron mexico : 2/26/2020 8:46 am : link
Namely the Mara bros.

John seems like a good man with good intentions but I wonder about his ability level.

He built that terrible stadium
He hired McAdoo and Shurmur.
He bungled the Eli benching thing

But he was born with a license to print money so it doesn’t really matter.
RE: I never liked the hire...  
Giants38 : 2/26/2020 8:50 am : link
In comment 14819393 bw in dc said:
Quote:
from day one. I didn’t/don’t think Gettleman was that impressive in his GM role as Carolina and 100% believe he was solely hired because he was a card carrying member of the “Giants Way”, something Mara strongly prefers in that role. But I think that was the very last we needed in that role - old and safe.

(The Accorsi role really pissed me off, too. It was clear Mara was giving Accorsi a chance to redeem himself after he recommended the hiring of Reese. So a lot of the Gettleman man hire is on Mara.)

And based on where we are record wise under Gettleman, his coaching hires, and the holes that continue to exist in the roster (both starters and depth) per Gettleman’s personnel decisions, we are arguably just as bad since the day he arrived.

His personality and press conferences just reaffirm to me that he’s completely unfit for the role as face of the franchise. The lack of preparation has been embarrassing when he’s facing the media.

Remember the shirt of Goodell with the clown nose? They should make one for Gettleman. It would be a monster seller...


Well, you and I are pretty much lockstep in this, except I believe that DG's role has been reduced, if not stripped.

But I agree. Every PC, every statement DG makes is bordering on nonsensical. Unlike what he said, scheme matters. You think he knows that, but instead he chooses to say that
RE: RE: BB56...  
bw in dc : 2/26/2020 8:52 am : link
In comment 14819414 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:


I was quite pleased with the Tuna and he was a buffoon. A lovable one, but a buffoon nevertheless..


As a huge fan of Parcells, so this comes with much bias, I recall Parcells being a maestro at controlling the press. He exuded confidence.

Gettleman is largely the opposite...to me.
I’m pretty much in line with what Gatorade mentioned above.  
The_Boss : 2/26/2020 9:00 am : link
But it’s a little more venomous with me. Friends and family know (because I’ve told them) I legitimately loathe the man. His body of work here, has been mostly below average. And if we go 6-10 or worse this year, after 3 offseasons, he cannot get a fourth bite at the apple.
Fan frustration with this broken franchise  
LBH15 : 2/26/2020 9:03 am : link
put Gettleman in a hole before he even showed up.

But then he did not do himself any favors by poorly assessing Eli, the roster and the team's ability as a whole to be competitive from the outset.

Add in a few significant moves that would probably be handled differently if DG had properly assessed the (poor) state of the team, and the arrogant nature that seems to accompany it, and you have a nice recipe for why he is not liked.

The passing on Darnold in the draft was a moment, not the fulcrum.
.  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 9:04 am : link
I legitimately loathe the man

RE: You're talking about a fan base that a portion  
Gettledogman : 2/26/2020 9:07 am : link
In comment 14819329 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Actually hate our 2X SB MVP QB who beat the best team the NFL ever had and then did it again 4 years later.

Are you really surprised?


Great Point!
Bill..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/26/2020 9:12 am : link
I really can't believe that's a sentiment for a football professional, but there you have it.

That's a lot of what these endless circles of bashing Gettleman are about - you have fans who hate the man!
the hell with Darnold  
Greg from LI : 2/26/2020 9:18 am : link
I wanted Quentin Nelson.

I don't like Gettleman because the hiring process that resulted in him was a joke, he sounds like a clown every time he opens his mouth, and he's done a mostly miserable job thus far. Simple as that.
You do have to give Gettleman,,.  
bw in dc : 2/26/2020 9:18 am : link
credit for these pearls of wisdom yesterday - “Look, offense is offense...”

So if you’re a fan of DG and looking for something to re-assure you of DG’s GM chops, there you have it...
RE: Bill..  
The_Boss : 2/26/2020 9:20 am : link
In comment 14819461 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I really can't believe that's a sentiment for a football professional, but there you have it.

That's a lot of what these endless circles of bashing Gettleman are about - you have fans who hate the man!


Is hating someone not allowed? I am fairly certain there’s a big enough pocket of NYG fans who feel similar.
RE: Bill..  
Britt in VA : 2/26/2020 9:22 am : link
In comment 14819461 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I really can't believe that's a sentiment for a football professional, but there you have it.

That's a lot of what these endless circles of bashing Gettleman are about - you have fans who hate the man!


Even though it's stated clear as day, not even veiled slightly, you'll continually have posters defend that that's not the case, that it's strictly objective criticism.

When you come right out and say that, how can anything you say about the subject be taken objectively from that point on?
RE: RE: Bill..  
Britt in VA : 2/26/2020 9:23 am : link
In comment 14819472 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 14819461 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


I really can't believe that's a sentiment for a football professional, but there you have it.

That's a lot of what these endless circles of bashing Gettleman are about - you have fans who hate the man!



Is hating someone not allowed? I am fairly certain there’s a big enough pocket of NYG fans who feel similar.


I agree with the bolded, 100%. Whether they'll come right out and say it, or not.
...  
christian : 2/26/2020 9:23 am : link
I've always maintained it's a 3 year evaluation and re-build. At the time, that notion got plenty of flack and patronizing comments. I stand by that timeframe.

In the interim a number of posters I really respect have gone in some strange directions to trivialize criticism and/or the utility of general management.

Maybe the role of GM is overstated, but team vision and building has been a problem, the general manager admitted it. The Giants have been profoundly bad for about 6 years, they've been historically awful the last 2 years.

There are mitigating, but not exonerating factors. It's not been one or two bad moves. There have been several. When those get debated the discussion devolves into excuse making.

When Dave Gettleman's tenure coincides with a winning football team, it will be miraculous how popular he becomes.
You are entitled..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/26/2020 9:24 am : link
to hate whomever you want.

Just like others are entitled to question why a grown man would bear hate for another individual for no legitimate reason.

Can't stop hate - but hopefully shining light on morons taking ridiculous stances helps....
RE: You are entitled..  
The_Boss : 2/26/2020 9:26 am : link
In comment 14819478 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
to hate whomever you want.

Just like others are entitled to question why a grown man would bear hate for another individual for no legitimate reason.

Can't stop hate - but hopefully shining light on morons taking ridiculous stances helps....


I think the manner in how he was hired and 9-23 can’t just be dismissed as “no legitimate reason”.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/26/2020 9:33 am : link
Of course it can!

How he was hired is reason to hate HIM??

why don't you hate Mara instead.

You are blaming a guy for the way he was hired, and attributing hate to him for it?

Hopefully you aren't trying to shed the moron designation.
I hated the DG  
Dnew15 : 2/26/2020 9:33 am : link
hire initially. I also don't like the way he conducts himself in the media. I also don't like some of the players that he brought in.

BUT - that doesn't automatically mean that he can't build a winner.

I all of sudden find myself defending the guy despite the fact that I would have chosen someone else.
And now that I think about it...  
Dnew15 : 2/26/2020 9:36 am : link
I think I defend him b/c I'm a fan of the Giants...but for no other reason.

The Boss  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 9:37 am : link
I LEGITIMATELY loathe a person I never met and who is not in my life and never will be?

A guy who takes no money from me, denied me nothing and doesn't stop me from whatever life I wish

I LEGITIMATELY loathe him.

And I think that's normal and defensible?



The Boss  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 9:38 am : link
I LEGITIMATELY loathe a person I never met and who is not in my life and never will be

A guy who takes no money from me, denied me nothing and doesn't stop me from whatever life I wish

I LEGITIMATELY loathe him.

And I think that's normal, OK and defensible



RE: LOL..  
The_Boss : 2/26/2020 9:41 am : link
In comment 14819485 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Of course it can!

How he was hired is reason to hate HIM??

why don't you hate Mara instead.

You are blaming a guy for the way he was hired, and attributing hate to him for it?

Hopefully you aren't trying to shed the moron designation.


Who’s the moron here? The guy who hates the GM because he’s perceived by the media AND a good number of his fans as an incompetent buffoon (9-23) or the president of the DG fan club who thinks the guy has been good at his job? I don’t think the choice can be any clearer.

As an aside, USA TODAY is the latest publication to absolutely cut Dave to ribbons.
Link - ( New Window )
bw  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 9:42 am : link
No one is defending DG at this point

But the emotional excess and hyperfocus is easy to see and a hard position to defend

There is no enemy here. Your emotion needs to go into letters to the NYG or some channel that does not spill every day into a dead end

Captain Ahab did at least have a harpoon when obsessively chasing the White Whale. None of us do
You should..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/26/2020 9:44 am : link
probably find some posts where I say DG is good at his job, rather than refuting takes that he's a trainwreck and a hated man.

I can actually find a post right above saying you legitimately loathe him.

Are you actually fucking defending that nonsense and wearing it as a badge of honor??

I hope some day I'm able to be the President of a Fan Club for a guy who has a hand in leading to winning again. And if that day comes, your moronic ass will not get a membership!!
AND YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO RENT HERE ANYMORE!  
Britt in VA : 2/26/2020 9:46 am : link
!
RE: You should..  
The_Boss : 2/26/2020 9:47 am : link
In comment 14819502 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
probably find some posts where I say DG is good at his job, rather than refuting takes that he's a trainwreck and a hated man.

I can actually find a post right above saying you legitimately loathe him.

Are you actually fucking defending that nonsense and wearing it as a badge of honor??

I hope some day I'm able to be the President of a Fan Club for a guy who has a hand in leading to winning again. And if that day comes, your moronic ass will not get a membership!!


Damn, you just ruined my day.

☹️
DG  
uther99 : 2/26/2020 9:50 am : link
Is probably an average GM. Most teams have hits and misses in FA and the draft, which is what DG has done. The losing record (not all DGs fault) has skewed people's opinions.
RE: I thing DG is a symptom of a bigger problem  
jcn56 : 2/26/2020 9:52 am : link
In comment 14819421 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Namely the Mara bros.

John seems like a good man with good intentions but I wonder about his ability level.

He built that terrible stadium
He hired McAdoo and Shurmur.
He bungled the Eli benching thing

But he was born with a license to print money so it doesn’t really matter.


This, x 10.

I said it when DG was hired - I didn't dislike the guy, and I didn't think he was a bad exec. What I did think was that he was the wrong guy for this organization, one that had become mired in some really faulty thinking and needed some drastic change, and were instead bringing in an old friend to see if they could continue along the same path with different results.

Not surprisingly, they couldn't.

I think the Giants most admirable quality is also their downfall. They're loyal. They just relieved two guys of their duties after almost 20 years. I'm sure that was an extremely difficult thing to do. I don't think those types of decisions can easily been made when everyone in the building has been together for that long (for Gettleman, slightly less with his stint in Carolina). They needed outside perspective and didn't get it.
Look,  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 9:53 am : link
the problem is not out here on the board.

You revealed too much of the mess inside. Now you are embarrassed and don't know how to handle it.

You lost all credibility as a poster with balanced insights and now you don't know how to handle it

Don't you realize that your mind is not our problem?

Only you can fix it and you cant fix it here

Now all we are observing is a side hooked baby flounder flopping on the dock and gasping with the shock of his predicament and the harshness of the actual light.

Maybe a new start, new self examination and a new handle is the way to go
RE: BB56...  
mfsd : 2/26/2020 9:53 am : link
In comment 14819411 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I expect a GM, essentially an officer of the company, to sound prepared, organized, and professional.

If you prefer the buffoonery approach than you should be pleased.


We all can agree that stylistically DG leaves a lot to be desired. He’s pretty cringeworthy in front of the press. With due respect, I honestly don’t care if our GM is good in public, I care about him making sound football decisions.

This is a discussion board, so of course we’re all entitled to our opinions, and you and anyone who’s questioned/criticized at least some of DGs decisions has reasonable grounds.

IMO if it turns out he’s hit on the Jones pick and we have a new franchise QB for the next 12 year, that outweighs a lot of his bad decisions like trading for Ogletree or signing Stewart at RB. Bad decisions, but far less significant that nailing a top QB draft pick.

I think most can admit that some fans hatred of DG has gone to an irrational level, that’s what this thread is about.

Instead of evaluating his decisions one by one, many fans thing any decision he makes sucks just bc he made it. That’s where these reasonable discussions/debates get silly. IMO
RE: Look,  
The_Boss : 2/26/2020 9:58 am : link
In comment 14819518 Bill2 said:
Quote:
the problem is not out here on the board.

You revealed too much of the mess inside. Now you are embarrassed and don't know how to handle it.

You lost all credibility as a poster with balanced insights and now you don't know how to handle it

Don't you realize that your mind is not our problem?

Only you can fix it and you cant fix it here

Now all we are observing is a side hooked baby flounder flopping on the dock and gasping with the shock of his predicament and the harshness of the actual light.

Maybe a new start, new self examination and a new handle is the way to go


I’m not in any predicament at all. The bottom line here is we are all NYG fans who want to see the team do well. When Dave does something worthy of praise, I have given it on those rare occasions and should he end up turning this around this year, I will give him kudos and all that stuff. I’ll be around here on bbi longer than Dave will be GM of the NYG.
The Boss  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 9:59 am : link
Now that is a reasonable take

and prior to that post I always thought you were a pretty balanced contributor
RE: I thing DG is a symptom of a bigger problem  
Harvest Blend : 2/26/2020 10:03 am : link
In comment 14819421 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Namely the Mara bros.

John seems like a good man with good intentions but I wonder about his ability level.

He built that terrible stadium
He hired McAdoo and Shurmur.
He bungled the Eli benching thing

But he was born with a license to print money so it doesn’t really matter.


Bam.
The Boss  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 10:05 am : link
There is not a lot to defend Mara or Gettleman right now.

But it isn't as unbalanced as it often seems on here

I think if we are not more observant and closer to fact based we will miss signs of improvement and also legitimate signs of where it isn't

Usually things are not as bad as they appear when things look bad and not as good as they appear when things look good.

2011 is a perfect example of this. It actually hid a precipitous decline in the fundamental strengths of the team and when the execs missed it for a few years...the delay set in motion a long decline. imo
the point being  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 10:06 am : link
that emotion prevents clear sight
RE: The Boss  
The_Boss : 2/26/2020 10:07 am : link
In comment 14819526 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Now that is a reasonable take

and prior to that post I always thought you were a pretty balanced contributor


I’m not asking you to actually go back and search, but, especially lately, I have given Dave props like when Snacks got released and there was another thread in the last week which I forget at the moment. Yes I am obviously not his biggest fan, but I do give him credit when credit is due, like drafting Jones. That’s an enormous PRO on his body of work here.
RE: RE: BB56...  
Big Blue '56 : 2/26/2020 10:08 am : link
In comment 14819519 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 14819411 bw in dc said:


Quote:


I expect a GM, essentially an officer of the company, to sound prepared, organized, and professional.

If you prefer the buffoonery approach than you should be pleased.



We all can agree that stylistically DG leaves a lot to be desired. He’s pretty cringeworthy in front of the press. With due respect, I honestly don’t care if our GM is good in public, I care about him making sound football decisions.

This is a discussion board, so of course we’re all entitled to our opinions, and you and anyone who’s questioned/criticized at least some of DGs decisions has reasonable grounds.

IMO if it turns out he’s hit on the Jones pick and we have a new franchise QB for the next 12 year, that outweighs a lot of his bad decisions like trading for Ogletree or signing Stewart at RB. Bad decisions, but far less significant that nailing a top QB draft pick.

I think most can admit that some fans hatred of DG has gone to an irrational level, that’s what this thread is about.

Instead of evaluating his decisions one by one, many fans thing any decision he makes sucks just bc he made it. That’s where these reasonable discussions/debates get silly. IMO


Well said
ron mexico  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 10:10 am : link
I don't think that's Mara's fatal flaw.

I don't think he is uncaring, too silver spooned, lazy or too loyal.

Think he has a different problem common to Owner's/CEO's
Now that  
section125 : 2/26/2020 10:17 am : link
took an interesting twist while I was away.

FWIW, I do not expect the Giants to have a good record this year. I think they go full in on young. I think they will start out slow with a new staff, new schemes and new players. This is the true start to the rebuild, this year.

What I hope is that we start to see improvement - tangible improvement, reductions in turnovers, fewer defensive mistakes, fewer penalties and the like.

I therefore think, unless FA and the draft is totally botched, DG will be back at least one more year.
unless your the owner you really have no clue  
dd in Mass : 2/26/2020 10:20 am : link
You've heard DG say that most all of his decisions are collaborative. They include the owners, personnel staff and coaches.

With that said, when DG was hired I am sure ownership instructed him that Eli was playing out his contract. Period end of story.

So now you have to try and walk the line of building a competitive team and yet with an eye toward a total turnover for the eventual new QB. That's not an easy job.

He got rid of some really terrible contracts and headcases. The OBJ trade in my mind was a single stroke of genius. To get what he did was an outright steal for one of the most overrated players in the league. He has set the franchise up with some young players with potential and has the cap space to make an impact at some positions of need.

He has whiffed on some of his FA choices. And he's not a polished corporate type. He's a 30 year career football guy. This is an important year for him because if the team does take a significant step forward that would vindicate him. Obviously Shurmur and his staff did him no favors.

Overall I am satisfied that the team will trend up. This was never going to get fixed in a year or two.
The Boss  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 10:21 am : link
I know.

It was a legit compliment when I said I always had read your contributions as balanced.

RE: Now that  
The_Boss : 2/26/2020 10:22 am : link
In comment 14819547 section125 said:
Quote:
took an interesting twist while I was away.

FWIW, I do not expect the Giants to have a good record this year. I think they go full in on young. I think they will start out slow with a new staff, new schemes and new players. This is the true start to the rebuild, this year.

What I hope is that we start to see improvement - tangible improvement, reductions in turnovers, fewer defensive mistakes, fewer penalties and the like.

I therefore think, unless FA and the draft is totally botched, DG will be back at least one more year.


Personally, as I’ve mentioned, 7 wins should be the line in the sand. I don’t see how Dave deserves a 4th go at it if go 6-10 or worse.
RE: The Boss  
The_Boss : 2/26/2020 10:24 am : link
In comment 14819552 Bill2 said:
Quote:
I know.

It was a legit compliment when I said I always had read your contributions as balanced.


Thank you. So I will try to see it down the middle with Dave. If you (or anyone) read my critiques as perhaps over the top, call me out on it.
jcn - I totally agree with you  
Dnew15 : 2/26/2020 10:33 am : link
The Giants have to be one of the most loyal organizations in professional sports.

Loyal to TC for too long
Loyal to Reece for too long
Loyal to too many JAGS on the roster for too long
Loyal to Eli for too long
Loyal to DG for too long

I get giving guys the time they need to succeed, or turn it around, or expecting them to be perfect, BUT it would seem the Giants subscribe to theory of keeping a guy too long rather than letting someone go a little too soon.
The Boss  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 10:34 am : link
He is just a guy. I think the vacumm in the building had him more on his own than you want a GM to be ( they need to be second guessed and collaborative)

As time goes on and if the new coaches are as good as well as hard working he matters less over time.

See you around. Thanks for getting the exchange to a good place. That's a measure of a man of substance. After all, we all have bad takes
The vitriol towards Gettleman is disappointing but not surprising.  
Jay on the Island : 2/26/2020 10:36 am : link
As mentioned above alot of that has to do with the fact that Gettleman took Barkley over one of their beloved QB's in 2018. Some of it is because the Giants didn't conduct a thorough GM search and clearly had their sights set on Gettleman from the beginning which many concluded was proof that the Giants were stuck in their ways.

Reese and Ross did a miserable job their last 5+ years here which left Gettleman with arguably the least talented roster in football not to mention an aging franchise QB with absolutely no option to replace him. Gettleman was tasked with the unenviable job of replacing a legend combined with little cap space.

Gettleman has made his share of mistakes especially in free agency but he has this team headed in the right direction. His first two drafts look like big successes after years of misses by his predecessors.

This is a huge offseason for the Giants as they finally have plenty of cap space and another top 5 pick. I think it's fair to judge Gettleman over what transpires next season.

The truth is this franchise is in far better shape than it was two years ago. If you don't think so you're either biased or an idiot.
RE: The vitriol towards Gettleman is disappointing but not surprising.  
Greg from LI : 2/26/2020 10:42 am : link
In comment 14819568 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
His first two drafts look like big successes


His first draft absolutely does not look like a big success.



Quote:
The truth is this franchise is in far better shape than it was two years ago.


Talk about wishcasting
RE: RE: The vitriol towards Gettleman is disappointing but not surprising.  
The_Boss : 2/26/2020 10:51 am : link
In comment 14819573 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14819568 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


His first two drafts look like big successes



His first draft absolutely does not look like a big success.





Quote:


The truth is this franchise is in far better shape than it was two years ago.



Talk about wishcasting


A lot of the perception the team is in no better shape than the day Dave walked in, a perspective I agree with, needs to factor in coaching. If Dave’s player acquisitions are as good as some feel, this new staff (which I am a big fan of) will justify them. Shurmer and Co. were beyond awful.
I think you guys also need to be careful  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 10:54 am : link
about categorizing everybody who criticized DG as some combination of:

1) Not liking the hiring process
2) Wanting to pick Darnold
3) Dislike his personality in front of the media
4) Disliked him before he even got here

I was none of the above. I don't hate the guy. I couldn't care less about his media persona. When he was hired I thought his take no prisoners attitude might be a good thing... I didn't like the Barkley pick, but didn't want Darnold. I didn't really like the bulk of that first draft. I've never liked his FA moves. And despite all that I was arguing that he needed more time for his vision to play out well into this season. It wasn't until after a few games this year, and the lack of improvement was glaring that I changed my tune.

Not everybody who is now criticizing DG arrived at that place via the same route. Mine is based on what I view as a long series of bad decisions. That said, its not all bad with DG, its a mixed bag. As Bill2 has put it (I'm paraphrasing), there is some water level that defines average GM decision making. Most GMs live within a small delta of that average. DG lives there as well, I just think the delta for him is under, and that doesn't cut it for a rebuilding franchise.
I still think...  
Dnew15 : 2/26/2020 10:55 am : link
at the end of the day DG will be defined by three decisions:
1.) Daniel Jones
2.) Joe Judge
3.) Barkley

In that order.
And while The Boss may have made a somewhat hyperbolic/emotional  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 11:05 am : link
statement about DG. I don't think anybody really thinks The Boss hates him on a personal level. The Boss hates how he has done his job, how he behaves, and what he has done to the Giants. Yeah, he said it poorly, but I think most "balanced" people realize that.

On the other hand, you have people dropping gems like this, attacking anybody that has a different opinion, it goes by without a blink of an eye by those who wich to attack the people who criticize this GM.

Quote:
The truth is this franchise is in far better shape than it was two years ago. If you don't think so you're either biased or an idiot.


There seems to be a theme lately, even among posters who I respect, that anybody who criticizes the GM is "hyberbolic", "emotional", and "unbalanced". Yet there are at least as many bad takes attacking the DG naysayers that as bad or worse than anything the naysayers post.

If you are going to claim "balance" they you should be attacking quotes like that one quote with even more vigor than The Boss' "hatred", since The Boss never shut down debate or discussion or dissenting opinion. The quote above attempts to do all the above.
High level view  
Reale01 : 2/26/2020 11:25 am : link
Two drafts look good
Moved on from Eli
Cleared out the bad contracts
Re-organized scouting department
Bad coach hire (The choices WERE limited)
Moved on to new coach who most of us like
Bad Free Agent signings, but only one lingers
Cleaned out lockerroom (Loved OBJ but it was a good call)
Good trades except the LW where the jury is out
Fixed organizational leaks

Current status
Solid with cap
Good young players including QB
Good young coach (?)
Solid coaching staff
Still have some big roster holes to fill (OT, C, LB, ER)
Still have smaller roster holes to fill (FS, CB, WR)
Team has been drafting better
How can they maximize 2020 picks (trade?)
Need to make the right choices in FA

It's not all good, but I don't understand the hate. The needle is pointing up IMO.
RE: RE: BB56...  
bw in dc : 2/26/2020 11:28 am : link
In comment 14819519 mfsd said:
Quote:

We all can agree that stylistically DG leaves a lot to be desired. He’s pretty cringeworthy in front of the press. With due respect, I honestly don’t care if our GM is good in public, I care about him making sound football decisions.

This is a discussion board, so of course we’re all entitled to our opinions, and you and anyone who’s questioned/criticized at least some of DGs decisions has reasonable grounds.

IMO if it turns out he’s hit on the Jones pick and we have a new franchise QB for the next 12 year, that outweighs a lot of his bad decisions like trading for Ogletree or signing Stewart at RB. Bad decisions, but far less significant that nailing a top QB draft pick.

I think most can admit that some fans hatred of DG has gone to an irrational level, that’s what this thread is about.

Instead of evaluating his decisions one by one, many fans thing any decision he makes sucks just bc he made it. That’s where these reasonable discussions/debates get silly. IMO


A few things.

You are right. DG's legacy is tethered to Jones. If Jones is the guy who wins playoff games and looks to be a legit force multiplier at QB, then many of the blunders get set aside and likely forgotten.

I found the decision to hire DG loathsome, which is clearly on Mara, but I don't hate the guy. At the same time, I don't get mired down in these sidebars like "hating DG" and making it a big deal to focus on. Sort of a red-herring in my eyes.

Like I suggested earlier, I have a hard time finding many differences between the Reese era and Gettleman era to date. Both have a lot in common - poor records and poor roster decisions.

But here's my bottom line - until we start seeing DG's decision paying dividends, like wins, it's more than reasonable to question EVERY move. I just don't see much evidence to date to inspire any trust in his decision making...
RE: High level view  
Britt in VA : 2/26/2020 11:39 am : link
In comment 14819651 Reale01 said:
Quote:
Two drafts look good
Moved on from Eli
Cleared out the bad contracts
Re-organized scouting department
Bad coach hire (The choices WERE limited)
Moved on to new coach who most of us like
Bad Free Agent signings, but only one lingers
Cleaned out lockerroom (Loved OBJ but it was a good call)
Good trades except the LW where the jury is out
Fixed organizational leaks

Current status
Solid with cap
Good young players including QB
Good young coach (?)
Solid coaching staff
Still have some big roster holes to fill (OT, C, LB, ER)
Still have smaller roster holes to fill (FS, CB, WR)
Team has been drafting better
How can they maximize 2020 picks (trade?)
Need to make the right choices in FA

It's not all good, but I don't understand the hate. The needle is pointing up IMO.


Seems like a fair assessment to me.
RE: RE: RE: BB56...  
Britt in VA : 2/26/2020 11:43 am : link
In comment 14819657 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14819519 mfsd said:


Quote:



We all can agree that stylistically DG leaves a lot to be desired. He’s pretty cringeworthy in front of the press. With due respect, I honestly don’t care if our GM is good in public, I care about him making sound football decisions.

This is a discussion board, so of course we’re all entitled to our opinions, and you and anyone who’s questioned/criticized at least some of DGs decisions has reasonable grounds.

IMO if it turns out he’s hit on the Jones pick and we have a new franchise QB for the next 12 year, that outweighs a lot of his bad decisions like trading for Ogletree or signing Stewart at RB. Bad decisions, but far less significant that nailing a top QB draft pick.

I think most can admit that some fans hatred of DG has gone to an irrational level, that’s what this thread is about.

Instead of evaluating his decisions one by one, many fans thing any decision he makes sucks just bc he made it. That’s where these reasonable discussions/debates get silly. IMO



A few things.

You are right. DG's legacy is tethered to Jones. If Jones is the guy who wins playoff games and looks to be a legit force multiplier at QB, then many of the blunders get set aside and likely forgotten.

I found the decision to hire DG loathsome, which is clearly on Mara, but I don't hate the guy. At the same time, I don't get mired down in these sidebars like "hating DG" and making it a big deal to focus on. Sort of a red-herring in my eyes.

Like I suggested earlier, I have a hard time finding many differences between the Reese era and Gettleman era to date. Both have a lot in common - poor records and poor roster decisions.

But here's my bottom line - until we start seeing DG's decision paying dividends, like wins, it's more than reasonable to question EVERY move. I just don't see much evidence to date to inspire any trust in his decision making...


Talk about hypocrisy. You won't get mired down in sidebars like "hating Gettleman", yet you love creating them? "Giants Way", "EFC", etc... How are those any different?

What I don't get is how Reese coould be worshiped on this board  
Chip : 2/26/2020 11:49 am : link
After all the disastrous drafts year after year after year. I know he had help with Ross the egomaniac screwing them up. We have had our best 2 drafts in a decade and all he gets is grief here.
McL  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 11:54 am : link
Based on what I see, I disagree on the reason blinding emotion on the pro dg side.

I dont see a pro DG side. It's hard to have data to support it

I see push back on over the top negative that makes it hard to parse any one current decision given the carryover.

I see push back on unsupported and speculative narratives.

For me, it's just too much energy beating a dead horse. It's a dumping ground topic for ambient dissappointment and the hard to be patient nature of these times.

Imo
RE: What I don't get is how Reese coould be worshiped on this board  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/26/2020 12:03 pm : link
In comment 14819694 Chip said:
Quote:
After all the disastrous drafts year after year after year. I know he had help with Ross the egomaniac screwing them up. We have had our best 2 drafts in a decade and all he gets is grief here.

He's not.

The Reese thing is a strawman that people seem to use to belittle anyone who criticizes DG, typically suggesting that if you don't like the job DG has done, you must be a Reese loyalist.

The reality is, they're cut from the same Accorsi lineage here - their styles aren't quite as contrasting as many seem to think, IMO. Reese's tenure fell off the cliff mostly when Ross took on more responsibility - Reese deserves full blame for that as the one who allowed that to happen. And DG's biggest upgrade was probably Chris Pettit.

But they're really not quite as different as many think, apart from their public persona.
I actually think they aren't very similar, but....  
Britt in VA : 2/26/2020 12:14 pm : link
agree that there is no Reese worship, nor should there be.

Reese's bread and butter seemed to center around athletic freaks, guys that had insane measurables but were not very polished, or very green, football players.

I don't know whether it was he, or Marc Ross, who coined the term "basketball on grass", but their drafts seemed to fit that analogy.

Gettleman and Accorsi are much more similar, and comparable. Traditional, if you will.

I think Reese's fault, perhaps, was believing that the NFL was evolving faster than it was, and that speed could overcome deficiencies on both lines.
...  
christian : 2/26/2020 12:23 pm : link
Being disappointed in the output from the Giants during Gettleman's tenure is far more broad than:

- Disappointment over Donald
- His goofy press conferences
- Nostalgia for Reese

The Giants lost more games over the last 2 years under DG than any other 2 year period under a GM in the 16-game era.

DG oversaw hiring the only coach in the 16 game era to not have a .500 or above season.

The Giants paid Manning 40M+ for 6 wins.

There's arguably not one veteran acquisition from the 2018 offseason who will make the team this year.

This isn't make believe disappointment.
You don't think Solder is going to make the team?  
Britt in VA : 2/26/2020 12:25 pm : link
?
RE: You don't think Solder is going to make the team?  
christian : 2/26/2020 12:29 pm : link
In comment 14819756 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
?


I believe there is a good argument Nate Solder at a 19.5M cap hit, entering his 10th year in the NFL, after 2 very poor seasons, will be a cap casualty. Yes.
DG gets an incomplete  
Thegratefulhead : 2/26/2020 12:32 pm : link
It has not been enough time. The micro analysis of each move is a waste of time. He needs to be judged on results. He inherited a fucking mess but definitely has made some head scratching moves along with some good ones.

He gets this whole year. If we do not look like a franchise with the arrow obviously pointing up get your pitchforks, I am with you. It has not been good enough. Until then, no need to call someone names battling cancer. Just stop. He is in the big job, it is fair to criticize but he deserves this year if you want a fair evaluation.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 2/26/2020 12:38 pm : link
A lot of the reasons listed for why people dislike DG are complete bullshit.

I saw an attempt to make a run at the playoffs from day one with a roster that I thought was so far away. Misanalyzing the team scared the shit out of me and made me lose a ton of confidence in him. Swinging and missing on Solder led to another loss of confidence. Extending and then trading Beckham, holding on to Jack Rabbit and then getting nothing for him, trading for Ogletree, and then trading for Williams all culminated in my thinking DG should have been fired.

Plus, we are 9-23 and we burned a year pretending we could compete. The people who cheered on the DG moves thinking we can compete should be the loudest critics (except that would force them to admit they were entirely wrong too).

I was fine with the DG hire - I thought his tenure in CAR was encouraging but he's sucked so far.

And I'm happy to give him credit where I think it's due. Jones looks excellent, I'd take him over any other QB the past two drafts. Trading Beckham (despite the initial error) looks good, trading Vernon was good.

I want DG to do well and the Giants to do well. I find his personality sort of funny and appreciate that he's been with the franchise for a long time.
The problem with..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/26/2020 12:46 pm : link
cherry-picking or assigning limitations like a 16 game season or an ABOVE .500 designation is that looking at the GM's, not all had a great first two seasons:

Quote:
The Giants lost more games over the last 2 years under DG than any other 2 year period under a GM in the 16-game era.

DG oversaw hiring the only coach in the 16 game era to not have a .500 or above season.


The only GM to have a winning season in either of his first two years on the job was Reese.

And of course, Robustelli had a worse first two seasons, going 2-12 and 5-9, but he only had 14 games.

The bottom line should be that Gettleman inherited a poor football team. Most GM's do. Very few times is there an immediate turnaround to a playoff appearance from a 3-13 team, especially when the roster is turned over.

Ray Handley took over a SB team, never was ABOVE .500 and is considered a terrible hire. So it isn't like Gettleman is even the first GM IN THE 16 GAME SEASON ERA to hire a bad coach.
...  
christian : 2/26/2020 1:09 pm : link
FMiC -- Gettleman hired a coach worse than Handley, which is a hell of an accomplishment. You'd agree that is really bad, right?

The Giants lost 23 games in Gettleman's first two years, which is also really bad and the most for a 2nd year GM in this era.

Again, I've always maintained Gettleman can only be fully judged after 3 full off seasons. But through 2 and change, he's made some unequivocal big mistakes. He admits, the owners admits it, the coach got fired, and the new coach has alluded to it.

It's not unfounded or bad fandom to believe Gettleman has done many unsuccessful things so far as the Giants GM.
Gettleman..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/26/2020 1:13 pm : link
hired a coach with a worse record than Handley.

Give Shurmur that SB team, and I doubt he does worse than what Handley did.
RE: Gettleman..  
christian : 2/26/2020 1:25 pm : link
In comment 14819831 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
hired a coach with a worse record than Handley.

Give Shurmur that SB team, and I doubt he does worse than what Handley did.


This is a real race to the bottom. Both coaches were very bad.

I'd assume you'd agree Shurmur is in the column of Gettleman's mistakes.
Of..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/26/2020 1:27 pm : link
course. Shurmur is not a good HC.

I just reserve a special mantle for Captain Time Management - Handley
RE: Of..  
christian : 2/26/2020 1:30 pm : link
In comment 14819859 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
course. Shurmur is not a good HC.

I just reserve a special mantle for Captain Time Management - Handley


I'm with ya. Handley single-handed ruined middle school for me.
RE: McL  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 2:12 pm : link
In comment 14819702 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Based on what I see, I disagree on the reason blinding emotion on the pro dg side.

I dont see a pro DG side. It's hard to have data to support it

I see push back on over the top negative that makes it hard to parse any one current decision given the carryover.

I see push back on unsupported and speculative narratives.

For me, it's just too much energy beating a dead horse. It's a dumping ground topic for ambient dissappointment and the hard to be patient nature of these times.

Imo

Sorry Bill...
My view is quite different...
Admittedly, I see a few "over the top" negative posts about DG. At least those posts are generally aimed at a debatable figure within the team... On the other hand, I see far more "over the top" posts from "defenders" giving unfair and unbalanced push back aimed directly at other posters. This dynamic has forced a wider polarization than would otherwise exist.

For example you completely ignored the quote that I posted above. There are an order of magnitude more posts like that, than there are "over the top" critical remarks of DG. The problem is, that this has become tribal. So, when you fall in one tribe, you ignore those kinds of posts from your tribe. They don't register. At this point Bill, I think you have clearly fallen into the tribe that is denouncing the critics. Whether or not your view of DG is positive or not, you are now in the criticize the critics tribe. Your posts in recent months reflect that "imbalance".

Something to consider.
Bill2  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 2:16 pm : link
example 1b:

Quote:
A lot of the reasons listed for why people dislike DG are complete bullshit.


And I haven't even started quoting my least favorite poster on BBI of all time yet.
RE: RE: Of..  
Dnew15 : 2/26/2020 2:18 pm : link
In comment 14819866 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14819859 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


course. Shurmur is not a good HC.

I just reserve a special mantle for Captain Time Management - Handley



I'm with ya. Handley single-handed ruined middle school for me.


You know what sucks - my kids says the same thing about Eli Manning.

Of course, being the good parent I am - we watched the all the old games (to him anyway) so he can understand just how good the old Eli was...but it doesn't change the fact that he wasn't old enough to see/remember the Super Bowl wins and miraculous games he orchestrated through the playoffs.
If you were truly balanced Bill...  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 2:19 pm : link
You would be calling these folks out as well.
By the way  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 2:34 pm : link
Quote:

Based on what I see, I disagree on the reason blinding emotion on the pro dg side.

I dont see a pro DG side. It's hard to have data to support it


I agree with 1000% that it is hard to be Pro DG and try to use anything like data to support your argument. There really just isn't much in the way of positive data.

There was a time that there was a pro-DG tribe that tried to do this. As the season went on, it became clear there was no defense. Instead it, that tribe morphed into the "Attack the Critics" tribe.

I'm sure you have noticed that I have not been participating in these debates much anymore. And even in this one, I am not debating DG's merits or demerits. Nor did I argue them yesterday on the the Peter King/DG thread. All I did there was dispute some statements with known facts and defend a poster against more "Attack the Critics" type posters.
christian  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 2:46 pm : link
I don't.

Mara wanted a sharp break from the past and he wanted a hire from an outstanding winning program who was analytical, best practice and winning process focused. He wanted a big change

He personally went to Foxboro and talked to the FO and BB and RK. He asked RK for permission. He waited to get interviews with the guys he wanted who fit those criteria

About 5-6 were interviewed.

Two to three prior candidates who were made offers rejected Mara. One after he said yes then waited several days to say no. Highly unlikely that guy gets another shot anytime soon after screwing two NFL owners in one short period

It was late and Shurmur has a rep with developing QB's ( which was going to be a priority to transition from Eli).

He had a decent reputation around the league. He had developed QB's.

The combination of being late and PS own recruiting talents produced the mediocre coaching staff

Notice how much faster and prepared they were with the last search. But notice that once again Mara wanted bold and this time he got it.

But those facts don't fit the Jints Central BS so we ignore them

Mara's impatience with the status quo fired or caused the firing of 3 HC/ One GM/One head of scouting/ 6 coordinators and about 30 coaches in five years trying to get a much better foundation for the team. Facts.

Fault the execution/fault some moves...but the mossy old does nothing Jints Central motif lives on without full alignment with the actual facts only in some heads on BBI.

And they consider themselves realists.



McL  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 2:49 pm : link
You used to be worth talking to
You are right  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 2:51 pm : link
I don't read every post

I don't react to every post

Neither do you
.  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 2:55 pm : link
imo, the disconnect noted above is not a defense of Mara.

Its a defense of the facts about who hired PS and how that came to passs

Where Mara fucked up and was not properly engaged was 2010 to 2016. That I do blame on him

The mess of 2016-2021 was a result of him trusting and being hands off too long

When he did begin to act he had no one around him to build upon and we lost 2016-2021 with an owners willing ness to act but no ability to do it well
RE: christian  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 2:58 pm : link
In comment 14819990 Bill2 said:
Quote:
But those facts don't fit the Jints Central BS so we ignore them

Mara's impatience with the status quo fired or caused the firing of 3 HC/ One GM/One head of scouting/ 6 coordinators and about 30 coaches in five years trying to get a much better foundation for the team. Facts.

Fault the execution/fault some moves...but the mossy old does nothing Jints Central motif lives on without full alignment with the actual facts only in some heads on BBI.

And they consider themselves realists.


Except that there is good reason to debate the what the faults were in the execution... Was there a lazy adherence to old comforts and old practices. I'm not saying ther ewas or wasn't, but there is a debate there.

Your tone above is very dismissive.... Not balanced at all...
RE: McL  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 2:59 pm : link
In comment 14819996 Bill2 said:
Quote:
You used to be worth talking to

Funny, I feel the same.
McL  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 3:06 pm : link
Because emotion makes analysis and parsing those things an untenable chore

So does being combative.

Look, we had good discussions not because I agreed with you but because I admired a poster who tried to be fact based in support of his points. I like that a lot in posters and respect it. There is not enough of it

But you might want to consider that over time, your weakest positions were attacked. Not by me. And you were not attacked. Your positions were attached but you over valued the supporting data as more telling than it often was and then conflated opposition to ideas as a greater insult than it was.

Now its all personal combat and sensitivity to the unfairness of it all. Which only accelerates replies in kind

Look at your posts from a year or two ago. Very good stuff. Maybe re find footing there ? I don't know

I know its not a good idea for us to engage this way so im going to back off until I find more solid ground
I think one of the biggest disconnects in this entire debate....  
Britt in VA : 2/26/2020 3:07 pm : link
is that posters (generally as I see it) have a hard time separating the old from the new.

Dave Gettleman has provided over two offseasons thus far. It's just not enough to undo the previous 10 years of poor drafting. It's just not.

If you look at it at a very basic level, he needed to rebuild and entire 53 man roster. In two offseasons there's really nothing left. That doesn't mean that he messed up. It just means that we are finally starting at a clean slate from a roster and financial standpoing. We are now building from the ground up.

And I get the "he mis-evaluated the roster he inherited" argument. I get it. But there are prior instances of teams being able to make some moves and tweaks and still remain competitive WHILE rebuilding. It does happen. He also happened to have the Eli Manning situation in his lap, which was he had a vet QB who could still play at 36 years old and two years remaining on his contract. That is not an easy situation/decision to navigate, especially when the player isn't the root of the problem.
presided not provided  
Britt in VA : 2/26/2020 3:08 pm : link
autocorrect.
Understandably, although not fairly.....  
Britt in VA : 2/26/2020 3:14 pm : link
Posters are lumping in the past two years with the previous six, basically.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 2/26/2020 3:34 pm : link
Bill, the only thing that I'm a little confused at is this:

Quote:
The combination of being late and PS own recruiting talents produced the mediocre coaching staff


Did Shurmur really do a bad job hiring or is it just easy to say that two years later? I liked the Bettcher hire, for example. I think most of BBI did as well. I was not thrilled with Shula, but didn't think he was the worst choice available. Then again, Bettcher and many of the position coaches are left jobless last I checked, so I could be wrong.

I think the NYG HC job was very much impossible the past two seasons. I don't think there's been a large disconnect between the talent and record the past two seasons.
RE: McL  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 3:36 pm : link
In comment 14820017 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Because emotion makes analysis and parsing those things an untenable chore

So does being combative.

Look, we had good discussions not because I agreed with you but because I admired a poster who tried to be fact based in support of his points. I like that a lot in posters and respect it. There is not enough of it

But you might want to consider that over time, your weakest positions were attacked. Not by me. And you were not attacked. Your positions were attached but you over valued the supporting data as more telling than it often was and then conflated opposition to ideas as a greater insult than it was.

Now its all personal combat and sensitivity to the unfairness of it all. Which only accelerates replies in kind

Look at your posts from a year or two ago. Very good stuff. Maybe re find footing there ? I don't know

I know its not a good idea for us to engage this way so im going to back off until I find more solid ground

No, in general you were not agreeing with me, you were going into details and picking at a flaw in my argument. I never had, and still don't have an issue with any of that.

I haven't been posting a whole lot lately. Multiple reasons... I have been extremely busy, and don't have a whole lotta time, especially to research something the way I normally would when I want to post about something. There also hasn't been much new lately that has captured my imagination to post about (perhaps a function of lack of time). So in that sense, you are right... I haven't made those kinds of posts lately. Perhaps come draft time, assuming I free up a bit.

On the other hand, you always took a neutral analytical approach. The kinds of sweeping generalizations and labeling of a whole class of thought that you've made on this thread alone, would have been unthinkable for you a year ago. You would have stuck to the facts. Perhaps something for you to try and regrab a foothold of there as well.
I don't think posters are actually. At least not the ones  
LBH15 : 2/26/2020 3:45 pm : link
that provide some rational thoughts.

If anybody is lumping the previous 6 years into the last two, it was Mara, DG and any of the fans on BBI that thought Eli Manning was going to keep pulling this flawed team up by his bootstraps. Even though his O-line wasn't getting any better and his game (and age) were deteriorating.

The 2016 team developed some mojo in season on Defense and won a whole lot of close games, but it was short lived. The team fundamentally wasn't sound on either side of the ball sans the occasionally slant throw that went for a 60-yard TD.

There was a time to look critically at breaking this thing down, but the decisions went the other way and Eli stayed in the saddle and expensive yet flawed free agents were signed. And now they are digging out of that mess.

Brett  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 3:46 pm : link
I agree that Bettcher seemed a dynamic hire and Shula an ok hire. I actually don't know what Shula did

from afar it looked like Bettcher could not teach at all and did not have talent to teach. Both things

I thought that from afar and no much else to go on the OL/RB/Lb/Db/Assistant DB coaches ranged from "where you there?" to "we couldn't do better"?

As a group the coaches simply did not show:
Time Management
Adaption during the game or at the half
Adaption from game to game
Play calling skills
Inexplicable plays called too often
Unit improvement from the Ol/LB/DB/CB
Putting players in position to do well ( often seemed we actually went away from the "book" on what they do well)

I get your good point...with the talent especially on defense its hard to see how even great coaching could have gotten more than 2 more wins. But I think I saw two more games that were winnable by good coaching ( I get that would not have helped us come draft time, but I couldn't find a defense of many on the prior coaching staff)

Take care Brett
RE: You're talking about a fan base that a portion  
pjcas18 : 2/26/2020 3:47 pm : link
In comment 14819329 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Actually hate our 2X SB MVP QB who beat the best team the NFL ever had and then did it again 4 years later.

Are you really surprised?


I really don't think any Giants fans "actually hate" Eli Manning. I do think though 8+ years since the Giants last won a playoff game with Eli at QB you do have fans who think there should be a change at the position.

Seems like hyperbole.
Premature  
Thegratefulhead : 2/26/2020 3:50 pm : link
DG inherited a mess.

Fact, there is no argument.

Had to deal with a high paid, declining 2 time SB winning QB beloved my ownership and fans.

That is extremely difficult to navigate.

I will not go through all of the decisions.

There is both good and bad.

I lean towards, he has not been good enough.

I just can't say for sure yet.

1 more year.

After this entire year if we do not look better it will be fair to say DG has not been good enough and the Giants should move on.

It would help with your criticisms if you were to shelve the ad hominem attacks. I watch them bait people into doing it. Then, once you go there, you are attacked personally for your name calling and justifiably so.

Almost every thread is reduced to the same people trying to find the most clever and insulting ways to call their enemies with a different opinion stupid.

Tribal enemies.

McL  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 3:58 pm : link
Very fair all around

And I did not see that as picking...I saw that as places where a good poster could have been engaging towards us both getting to a more solid ground. I thank you for those discussions.

I fully agree that for me my preferential way to engage feels much harder in the current environment so perhaps we are finding the same things from different directions

For example, FMIC has gotten under your skin. I get the reasons why and the worst exchanges where unnecessary. But you should know there is no way to "win" those kinds of exchanges. Its one of the reasons I tried to take you elsewhere on some of those threads. Let others see over the top as over the top and keep on doing your level best posting

If it were me, Id shrug all that off more McL. But that's easier for me to say because I have known and like FMIC for a long time. I certainly wouldn't let that wreck your experience. I certainly would not keep a scorecard and try to win the last word with posters ( I do that to my own detriment all the time0

Most fights are about the other guy. And most things that set people off are traits they half see in themselves and don't like about themselves. How else could they see and find "reasons' to respond?

Take care and see you down the road.

Maybe once past the draft the emotional content on some subjects will die down enough that they are debateable
good stuff  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 4:00 pm : link
gratefulhead
RE: Brett  
BrettNYG10 : 2/26/2020 4:07 pm : link
In comment 14820069 Bill2 said:
Quote:
I agree that Bettcher seemed a dynamic hire and Shula an ok hire. I actually don't know what Shula did

from afar it looked like Bettcher could not teach at all and did not have talent to teach. Both things

I thought that from afar and no much else to go on the OL/RB/Lb/Db/Assistant DB coaches ranged from "where you there?" to "we couldn't do better"?

As a group the coaches simply did not show:
Time Management
Adaption during the game or at the half
Adaption from game to game
Play calling skills
Inexplicable plays called too often
Unit improvement from the Ol/LB/DB/CB
Putting players in position to do well ( often seemed we actually went away from the "book" on what they do well)

I get your good point...with the talent especially on defense its hard to see how even great coaching could have gotten more than 2 more wins. But I think I saw two more games that were winnable by good coaching ( I get that would not have helped us come draft time, but I couldn't find a defense of many on the prior coaching staff)

Take care Brett


Thanks. I see your point and agree with all of it.

I would have been fine with the coaching staff staying despite the record if I saw things to hang my hat on. Outside of Jones and Slayton, there wasn't much. There were too many errors. Teams like the 04 Giants and even this years Dolphins showed traits of quality coaching despite bad records.
Brett  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 4:16 pm : link
Im not looking for a big improvement in record this year. Too many moving parts that have to mesh.

But I am looking for examples of the following:

I) A team we are not expected to beat where we do by dint of a better game plan or plays that the opponent is not prepared for

II) A game we win by adjustments during the game and especially at the half

III) Well played last two minute plans

IV) Better line calls by Jones

V) Better line play by the OL

VI) Better defense in the middle of the field

VII) Several guys who are better by the end of the year

I'm 100% with you.  
BrettNYG10 : 2/26/2020 4:20 pm : link
I'm very excited about what I'm reading about Judge. Hope he pans out.

I've complained about Gettleman enough. :)
RE: RE: You're talking about a fan base that a portion  
montanagiant : 2/26/2020 4:21 pm : link
In comment 14820070 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 14819329 montanagiant said:


Quote:


Actually hate our 2X SB MVP QB who beat the best team the NFL ever had and then did it again 4 years later.

Are you really surprised?



I really don't think any Giants fans "actually hate" Eli Manning. I do think though 8+ years since the Giants last won a playoff game with Eli at QB you do have fans who think there should be a change at the position.

Seems like hyperbole.

Come on PJ, you've been on this board long enough to have read some of the nonsense posted about him over the years. That is quite a soft-sell claiming that they just wanted a change.

He has been vilified by many people on this board for years. He even caught crap over the 2016 GB playoff game where he had something 3 TD passes dropped and our top 3 receivers combined for a whopping 121 yards and were outperformed by Will Tye and Tavarres King
RE: I think one of the biggest disconnects in this entire debate....  
bw in dc : 2/26/2020 4:56 pm : link
In comment 14820019 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
is that posters (generally as I see it) have a hard time separating the old from the new.

Dave Gettleman has provided over two offseasons thus far. It's just not enough to undo the previous 10 years of poor drafting. It's just not.

If you look at it at a very basic level, he needed to rebuild and entire 53 man roster. In two offseasons there's really nothing left. That doesn't mean that he messed up. It just means that we are finally starting at a clean slate from a roster and financial standpoing. We are now building from the ground up.

And I get the "he mis-evaluated the roster he inherited" argument. I get it. But there are prior instances of teams being able to make some moves and tweaks and still remain competitive WHILE rebuilding. It does happen. He also happened to have the Eli Manning situation in his lap, which was he had a vet QB who could still play at 36 years old and two years remaining on his contract. That is not an easy situation/decision to navigate, especially when the player isn't the root of the problem.


One of the issues I have is this sympathy you and others pedal for Gettleman. Implying that DG deserves a Mulligan for stepping into a bad situation.

I really struggle with that. He knew what he was getting into and instantly synced up with Mara that Eli was still the path to success. And proceeded to invest heavily to make that happen. Now the ripple effects of many of those decisions - many poor ones - have created an additional set back and cost us time in this rebuild.

So he dug another hole for the team. Yet he gets all of this credit for fixing the hole that Reese dug. How do you reconcile that?
...  
christian : 2/26/2020 5:38 pm : link
I struggle with the independent bad decisions.

The team he inherited was bad, but GMs aren't typically fired for putting together good teams. I don't quite buy he stepped into a uniquely challenging situation. Hard, but not tragic.

In the pinned thread on cutting Ogletree/Martin, I listed out the 22 UFAs acquired in 2018 for instance.

That's a pretty decent sample size, and honestly I don't believe any of those players improved the position.

The bad reads on UFA and the very bad Shurmur hire are independently alarming.

Whether he inherited a bad team or horrific team, some of these independent factors can and should be better.
I don't buy that Mara forced a GM to keep Eli.  
BrettNYG10 : 2/26/2020 5:59 pm : link
.
RE: I don't buy that Mara forced a GM to keep Eli.  
ron mexico : 2/26/2020 6:00 pm : link
In comment 14820232 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
.


Not so much forced as hired the guy who aligned with him.
RE: I don't buy that Mara forced a GM to keep Eli.  
jcn56 : 2/26/2020 6:02 pm : link
In comment 14820232 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
.


I have a hard time believing that too - and DG's first moves were like a bad repeat of 2012, trying to retool on the fly and get competitive ASAP when it was clear the team had much bigger problems than what could be repaired in one offseason.

I think it's a lot more likely that Gettleman's main advantage as Reese's successor was his familiarity with the Giants organization and his like mindedness when it came to the moves that needed to be made. Otherwise, not only was he forced to retain Eli, but he was forced to try to patch things together for a quick run as well?
RE: RE: I think one of the biggest disconnects in this entire debate....  
Thegratefulhead : 2/26/2020 6:17 pm : link
In comment 14820178 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14820019 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


is that posters (generally as I see it) have a hard time separating the old from the new.

Dave Gettleman has provided over two offseasons thus far. It's just not enough to undo the previous 10 years of poor drafting. It's just not.

If you look at it at a very basic level, he needed to rebuild and entire 53 man roster. In two offseasons there's really nothing left. That doesn't mean that he messed up. It just means that we are finally starting at a clean slate from a roster and financial standpoing. We are now building from the ground up.

And I get the "he mis-evaluated the roster he inherited" argument. I get it. But there are prior instances of teams being able to make some moves and tweaks and still remain competitive WHILE rebuilding. It does happen. He also happened to have the Eli Manning situation in his lap, which was he had a vet QB who could still play at 36 years old and two years remaining on his contract. That is not an easy situation/decision to navigate, especially when the player isn't the root of the problem.



One of the issues I have is this sympathy you and others pedal for Gettleman. Implying that DG deserves a Mulligan for stepping into a bad situation.

I really struggle with that. He knew what he was getting into and instantly synced up with Mara that Eli was still the path to success. And proceeded to invest heavily to make that happen. Now the ripple effects of many of those decisions - many poor ones - have created an additional set back and cost us time in this rebuild.

So he dug another hole for the team. Yet he gets all of this credit for fixing the hole that Reese dug. How do you reconcile that?
It might be a coincidence. It seems as though, just about everyone that thought Eli was done and thought we should move on from Eli disliked DG from the moment he said the Eagle game was not a mirage. FWIW, I hated that he said that and also thought Eli was toast. However, it did not make me hate the guy. From the cheap seats, some people sure seem to hate him. If he got the QB right and the new coach right we might have something. I can't know that until the end of the 2020 season. I think it is possible both of those decision are not just good, but home runs. Some of the criticisms of the guy could look pretty foolish by the end of next year. I lean towards DG has not been good enough but I am unwilling to be definitive and insulting about it and risk looking foolish.
RE: McL  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 6:20 pm : link
In comment 14820090 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Very fair all around

And I did not see that as picking...I saw that as places where a good poster could have been engaging towards us both getting to a more solid ground. I thank you for those discussions.

I fully agree that for me my preferential way to engage feels much harder in the current environment so perhaps we are finding the same things from different directions

For example, FMIC has gotten under your skin. I get the reasons why and the worst exchanges where unnecessary. But you should know there is no way to "win" those kinds of exchanges. Its one of the reasons I tried to take you elsewhere on some of those threads. Let others see over the top as over the top and keep on doing your level best posting

If it were me, Id shrug all that off more McL. But that's easier for me to say because I have known and like FMIC for a long time. I certainly wouldn't let that wreck your experience. I certainly would not keep a scorecard and try to win the last word with posters ( I do that to my own detriment all the time0

Most fights are about the other guy. And most things that set people off are traits they half see in themselves and don't like about themselves. How else could they see and find "reasons' to respond?

Take care and see you down the road.

Maybe once past the draft the emotional content on some subjects will die down enough that they are debateable

I didn't mean "picking" in a negative sense as in "picking on"... More like the flap of a band aid that is sticking up (the flaw) and you pulled at it. Sorry if that was unclear. As I said, I've been posting much less lately. And honestly besides being busy. it has also been a conscious step back from the tribalness and combativeness that discussions have degenerated into. Which has been the general theme of my posts in this thread. And in fact the general theme of most of my posts lately when I have posted.

Take a look at these threads. Almost always one of the first things trotted out is that critics are still just butt hurt over Darnold. After that, its the hiring process, after that is the buffoonery. Its all about bundling all the critics up, putting them into a neat package that can be more easily attacked. The critics, or "realists", are a varied array posters who arrived at their opinions in various ways. What's more, not all of them even agree with each other.

I stepped back almost 3 months ago... During that time I've seen Terps driven off by Joey, which seems to have been taken as some sort of victory by one tribe and opened a floodgate of venom directed at the realists. Now Googs has been banned as well, and there were some posters reveling in that "victory" as well. If you take a step back, but still pay attention, the tone shift has been quite noticeable.
RE: RE: I don't buy that Mara forced a GM to keep Eli.  
LBH15 : 2/26/2020 6:24 pm : link
In comment 14820233 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14820232 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


.



Not so much forced as hired the guy who aligned with him.


I don't buy that Mara forced it on him either. Nor this crap about that Eagle game video after the fact.

DG was all-in on Eli for a few more years and missed it. Just like he did when his wrongly assessed the roster in the beginning too.
RE: RE: RE: You're talking about a fan base that a portion  
pjcas18 : 2/26/2020 6:30 pm : link
In comment 14820121 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14820070 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 14819329 montanagiant said:


Quote:


Actually hate our 2X SB MVP QB who beat the best team the NFL ever had and then did it again 4 years later.

Are you really surprised?



I really don't think any Giants fans "actually hate" Eli Manning. I do think though 8+ years since the Giants last won a playoff game with Eli at QB you do have fans who think there should be a change at the position.

Seems like hyperbole.


Come on PJ, you've been on this board long enough to have read some of the nonsense posted about him over the years. That is quite a soft-sell claiming that they just wanted a change.

He has been vilified by many people on this board for years. He even caught crap over the 2016 GB playoff game where he had something 3 TD passes dropped and our top 3 receivers combined for a whopping 121 yards and were outperformed by Will Tye and Tavarres King


Fair, and I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak as an Eli laggard. I was not a big fan of Eli all the way up to the 2007 season, and maybe even into 2007.

But I never hated him. He obviously won me over.

I just think hate is a strong word to use about Eli.

Maybe I'm wrong.
RE: RE: I don't buy that Mara forced a GM to keep Eli.  
BrettNYG10 : 2/26/2020 6:34 pm : link
In comment 14820237 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14820232 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


.



I have a hard time believing that too - and DG's first moves were like a bad repeat of 2012, trying to retool on the fly and get competitive ASAP when it was clear the team had much bigger problems than what could be repaired in one offseason.

I think it's a lot more likely that Gettleman's main advantage as Reese's successor was his familiarity with the Giants organization and his like mindedness when it came to the moves that needed to be made. Otherwise, not only was he forced to retain Eli, but he was forced to try to patch things together for a quick run as well?


Agreed. I wanted someone from outside the organization, but was fine with DG because I thought he had a track record of doing the things I liked: making tough, analytical football decisions. His track record at CAR was encouraging as well. The moves he made that first off-season worried me immediately.
RE: RE: McL  
Britt in VA : 2/26/2020 6:35 pm : link
In comment 14820248 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14820090 Bill2 said:


Quote:


Very fair all around

And I did not see that as picking...I saw that as places where a good poster could have been engaging towards us both getting to a more solid ground. I thank you for those discussions.

I fully agree that for me my preferential way to engage feels much harder in the current environment so perhaps we are finding the same things from different directions

For example, FMIC has gotten under your skin. I get the reasons why and the worst exchanges where unnecessary. But you should know there is no way to "win" those kinds of exchanges. Its one of the reasons I tried to take you elsewhere on some of those threads. Let others see over the top as over the top and keep on doing your level best posting

If it were me, Id shrug all that off more McL. But that's easier for me to say because I have known and like FMIC for a long time. I certainly wouldn't let that wreck your experience. I certainly would not keep a scorecard and try to win the last word with posters ( I do that to my own detriment all the time0

Most fights are about the other guy. And most things that set people off are traits they half see in themselves and don't like about themselves. How else could they see and find "reasons' to respond?

Take care and see you down the road.

Maybe once past the draft the emotional content on some subjects will die down enough that they are debateable


I didn't mean "picking" in a negative sense as in "picking on"... More like the flap of a band aid that is sticking up (the flaw) and you pulled at it. Sorry if that was unclear. As I said, I've been posting much less lately. And honestly besides being busy. it has also been a conscious step back from the tribalness and combativeness that discussions have degenerated into. Which has been the general theme of my posts in this thread. And in fact the general theme of most of my posts lately when I have posted.

Take a look at these threads. Almost always one of the first things trotted out is that critics are still just butt hurt over Darnold. After that, its the hiring process, after that is the buffoonery. Its all about bundling all the critics up, putting them into a neat package that can be more easily attacked. The critics, or "realists", are a varied array posters who arrived at their opinions in various ways. What's more, not all of them even agree with each other.

I stepped back almost 3 months ago... During that time I've seen Terps driven off by Joey, which seems to have been taken as some sort of victory by one tribe and opened a floodgate of venom directed at the realists. Now Googs has been banned as well, and there were some posters reveling in that "victory" as well. If you take a step back, but still pay attention, the tone shift has been quite noticeable.


Ive never been one for personal attacks. We all have our moments though. That said, I believe the shift that you noticed was from people that got tired of getting beat over the head with pessimism and negativity on every thread. It was possibly the most overwhelmingly negative period in my near twenty year tenure here. Any positive was shouted down from thread to thread, and if you didn’t agree you were a _______ fan club member or sympathizer. People who normally don’t even post much were drawn out of hibernation.
There wasn’t enough yin to yang, so to say.  
Britt in VA : 2/26/2020 6:36 pm : link
And it was from a fairly small, but extremely vocal, group.
DG =mixed review  
TheEvilLurker : 2/26/2020 6:45 pm : link
He failed at his biggest job, getting a competent head coach.

Passed at getting a replacement for Eli, although still a little early to tell.
Saquon was a good pick.
Draft is an incomplete, because it's too early.
Lots of wasted money, although it Odell early, picked up a lot of bad fa players.

Jury is not out yet, but it's not looking good. Really hoping JJ can turn it around and show us he is a decent GM that made a bad coaching hire, that lead to bad FA picks.
It  
TheEvilLurker : 2/26/2020 6:46 pm : link
=dropped
...  
christian : 2/26/2020 6:54 pm : link
Britt, I believe the one factor you don't give a balanced consideration to -- why would this single factor evoke such a strong reaction, to the point it draws from the woodwork?

Is it more likely:

1) fans harbored a secret hatred for Manning

2) fans could see the obvious outcome of high cost, more losing, and little benefit to the team
RE: There wasn’t enough yin to yang, so to say.  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 6:57 pm : link
In comment 14820261 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
And it was from a fairly small, but extremely vocal, group.

Britt, we may not agree on much, but I actually like you as a poster... A lot...
I think of you as one of the good guys, and I have a lot of admiration for you with how you held up under a pretty withering assault. Some of it unnecessarily personal. And you never descended into the petty attacks.

I think for you in particular it probably felt more overwhelming because as the team's play descended into the far depths, you were the sole defender of your faith. You bore that weight almost entirely alone. I can understand your feelings in this manner.

The core/vocal group of realists is a pretty small group. They are for the most part respectful posters. Admittedly, there were a handful of times I felt compelled to call one or another of them of them out for behaving badly. But in general, the core group is respectful. There are other posters, who at least I do not consider part of that core group. The posters outside the core group are far more likely to engage in the ad-hominem attacks that I think are now being turned on all the core group of realists unjustly.
RE: RE: RE: I think one of the biggest disconnects in this entire debate....  
bw in dc : 2/26/2020 7:09 pm : link
In comment 14820246 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:

It might be a coincidence. It seems as though, just about everyone that thought Eli was done and thought we should move on from Eli disliked DG from the moment he said the Eagle game was not a mirage. FWIW, I hated that he said that and also thought Eli was toast. However, it did not make me hate the guy. From the cheap seats, some people sure seem to hate him. If he got the QB right and the new coach right we might have something. I can't know that until the end of the 2020 season. I think it is possible both of those decision are not just good, but home runs. Some of the criticisms of the guy could look pretty foolish by the end of next year. I lean towards DG has not been good enough but I am unwilling to be definitive and insulting about it and risk looking foolish.


I said it here or on another thread that if Jones turns into a legit franchise QB who wins playoff games and challenges for trophies then DG has indeed delivered his best work. And many of the gaffes will be a distant memory. Legacy sealed.

I don't take the hate stuff seriously. It's probably more deep frustration with the team performance and how DG conducts himself.

For me, and I seem to be in the minority on this, I think Gettleman has a responsibility to act a certain way in front of any mic and instill confidence that the team is on course. He is a member of the C-suite. Act like one and be prepared.
McL - from what I can tell there are a fair amount of realists  
LBH15 : 2/26/2020 7:17 pm : link
on BBI, and a fair amount (X10) that think they are realists.
:-)

Look, its relatively easy to be a Giant fan when things are going well or even average. But when you have sucked like this team has for the better part of the past decade, losing probably does create a bit of separation between those fans that can see the flaws/issues and those that would rather see "around" those flaws.

Not everybody has to root/post the same. Not everybody has to be optimistic just like that don't have to be pessimistic, but they can still be fans nevertheless. Fans that may even post their views with sensationalism from time to time, or all the time. And if they do, is it because they are morons...or just that's how they choose to act as Giant fans?
RE: McL - from what I can tell there are a fair amount of realists  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 7:40 pm : link
In comment 14820307 LBH15 said:
Quote:
on BBI, and a fair amount (X10) that think they are realists.
:-)

Look, its relatively easy to be a Giant fan when things are going well or even average. But when you have sucked like this team has for the better part of the past decade, losing probably does create a bit of separation between those fans that can see the flaws/issues and those that would rather see "around" those flaws.

Not everybody has to root/post the same. Not everybody has to be optimistic just like that don't have to be pessimistic, but they can still be fans nevertheless. Fans that may even post their views with sensationalism from time to time, or all the time. And if they do, is it because they are morons...or just that's how they choose to act as Giant fans?

LBH, I pretty much agree with your post.
You were not really here to see the evolution of the realists. Terps and bw were there from the start. I hated the Barkley pick, but wanted to wait and see. I was critical of his moves individually, but I finally had enough around game 5 or 6 this year. That was about the time the "core" group came together it was only about 7 or 8 of us that had decided by that time both PS and DG should go. THe larger group of realists were swayed by the teams continued dismal performance, and by the weight of many of the arguments of the core group.
Well, right wrong or indifferent Gettleman is still here.  
LBH15 : 2/26/2020 7:50 pm : link
Fairly certain that is not a victory to even those that weren't a part of this quorum that you referred to. At least I hope not.

Offseason seems to be the best months to be a Giant fan, at least lately. So with some bit of optimism maybe DG has a better free agent period in his 3rd year on the job, or at least neutral.

The key to me is still the draft, and I really believe we need the fates to come together and get us a nice trade-down whereas we can add a few red-chip guys instead of one maybe "blue-chip". Still way too many units on this team that need upgrading.
RE: Well, right wrong or indifferent Gettleman is still here.  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 7:56 pm : link
In comment 14820329 LBH15 said:
Quote:
Fairly certain that is not a victory to even those that weren't a part of this quorum that you referred to. At least I hope not.

Offseason seems to be the best months to be a Giant fan, at least lately. So with some bit of optimism maybe DG has a better free agent period in his 3rd year on the job, or at least neutral.

The key to me is still the draft, and I really believe we need the fates to come together and get us a nice trade-down whereas we can add a few red-chip guys instead of one maybe "blue-chip". Still way too many units on this team that need upgrading.


Yep... I'm reconciled to DG's presence for another year. And I hope for the best. I hope that the hand of God touches him, and all his future decisions turn to Gold... I harbor no hate for the guy.
Do you sense  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 8:30 pm : link
The condecending tone in self nominating as "realists"??

Do you get that anyone who labels themselves as such is really not approachable or worth talking to for their world is closed to only those who recognize their self nominated superiority?

Then you feel picked on when folks think its an unearned posture?

That self nominated self certain and arrogant tone is at odds with any cloudy situation that is moving rapidly and cannot be penetrated with the very limited knowledge any of us have.

In life are you attracted to smug people?

Do you want to interact with them or stay away from their arrogance?

Why would anyone adopt a self limiting way of being?

None of those people are realists. None. Neither am I or anyone else posting about the state of the Giants.

We are projecting. Nothing more. Projecting.

Humility would serve us all well.

.  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 8:51 pm : link
Is it realistic to self nominate for anything?

Humans, being human, have a very high chance of fooling themselves.

And doesn't an intelligent person change as new information and perspectives get taken in?

What's more by self nominating as a group you are nominating all others as "others"

How's that square with being analytically sound and only fact based?

Not a debate I'm asking to have nor wish to keep going. I pose them as questions that might be worthwhile for you to self examine over time.

To me. Self nominating into a label or group is a mental occlusion that hardens into blind spots

Will give it some thought  
LBH15 : 2/26/2020 9:21 pm : link
.
Lastly  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 9:23 pm : link
And sorry for the multiple posts

As a point of logic, No one can be realistic until the results are in. Not possible

And No one can be realistic until you know for sure what the degree of marching orders and constraints DG had to work with. We dont know so we all speculate this aspect. Which makes no one realistic. We cant be. We have to adjust to the reality of not knowing.

A realist in this situation is the ones who confess they dont know and get comfortable with that "realism"

Way too much speculation of all different kinds from all angles for anyone to be a realist. And no one knows how the story plays out just yet.

That's not me talking. That's just reality
For me the term  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 9:50 pm : link
For me, the term "Realist" on this site goes back to the 90s debates that also got tribal...

I was actually a proud "Pollyanna" then.
Methinks you read too much  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 9:54 pm : link
into the term...

Don't really care if you call me a pessimist, at least with the current team and its state... Whatever...

What I don't like is the broad brush painting of everybody in the group as Smug. That's a word I usually hear from another poster. Not you.
Lastly "Realist" was born out of  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 10:03 pm : link
Expectations for the team. The recent "Realists" had low/pessimitic expectations for the team.

Look at some of the predictions in the early season threads at some of the outsized expectations many, many posters had.

As it turned out, those expectations were unrealistic. Thus the pessimistic voices were the "Realists" once the results were in. I didn't see the term being widely revived until near the end of the season... So not quite what you are thinking. But you are doing your analysis these days from one side of the tribal views. Something the Bill from a year ago would have shunned.
nope  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 10:28 pm : link
You are so eager to place people in tribes and label that you missed the point.

Its about getting you to think harder and more in depth. Just you. The way you are thinking. No one else

Not the term and not about tribes or sides or labels.

Btw, you resist being self reflective and noticing that you are the one who could be seeing things incorrectly. Psychologically well defended. And attack the messenger in order to resist the point.

Going to be hard to be a good analyst

Ah well
Honestly  
Bill2 : 2/26/2020 10:30 pm : link
its your views that have hardened and moved and become less reasonable and more prone to argument and not exposition.

And they hardened because you are angry at a particular poster and conflated from there

You are better than that
I’ve seen enough of DG  
trueblueinpw : 2/26/2020 10:43 pm : link
It seems to me that people who support DG are happy to concede he’s missed on FAs and hiring Shurmur but then point to his success in the draft. I just don’t see that - a RB at the 2 didn’t and doesn’t make sense to me. And honestly, has Barkley really been good enough to justify that pick? I don’t think so, but others do. Still way too soon to know about Jones. But that cuts both ways. If he’s anything less than a franchise QB then Getty be remembered as a huge failure.

Balanced against his gamble on DJ and Barks, for me, the irrational trades and signings and letting guys go for nothing and the Shurmur signing and the bizarre press conferences are enough to convince me that he’s way out of his capability set.
The Zen philosopher, Basho, once wrote,  
LBH15 : 2/26/2020 10:54 pm : link
"A flute with no holes, is not a flute. And a donut with no hole, is a Danish."



RE: The Zen philosopher, Basho, once wrote,  
bw in dc : 2/26/2020 11:18 pm : link
In comment 14820458 LBH15 said:
Quote:
"A flute with no holes, is not a flute. And a donut with no hole, is a Danish."




Thank you, Ty.
RE: nope  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 11:21 pm : link
In comment 14820443 Bill2 said:
Quote:
You are so eager to place people in tribes and label that you missed the point.

Its about getting you to think harder and more in depth. Just you. The way you are thinking. No one else

Not the term and not about tribes or sides or labels.

Btw, you resist being self reflective and noticing that you are the one who could be seeing things incorrectly. Psychologically well defended. And attack the messenger in order to resist the point.

Going to be hard to be a good analyst

Ah well

No, I'm not eager to perpetuate the tribalism. Part of the reason I stepped back, as I said before. But I will call it as I see it.

I have actually never used the term "realist" until this thread. I saw it starting to be used often late in the season, but I never self proclaimed it. I only started using it after you used it as a smear earlier. You are better than that.

Quote:
But those facts don't fit the Jints Central BS so we ignore them

Mara's impatience with the status quo fired or caused the firing of 3 HC/ One GM/One head of scouting/ 6 coordinators and about 30 coaches in five years trying to get a much better foundation for the team. Facts.

Fault the execution/fault some moves...but the mossy old does nothing Jints Central motif lives on without full alignment with the actual facts only in some heads on BBI.

And they consider themselves realists.


I purposely took on the moniker after that.

Which came first Bill, the chicken or the egg?
...  
christian : 2/26/2020 11:28 pm : link
Maybe too much is made of Gettleman, and like most prolonged failures in organizations, the problems run deep and broad.

A team loses 10 or more games in 5/6 seasons, fires 3 coaches in 5 years, jettisons virtually all of the players, spends deep into their future budget not once but twice with virtually nothing to show. Something deep and broad is wrong. The last two years haven't shown the growth to warrant new trust. When a common refrain is "what was the alternative," I don't get convinced.

On to coach number 4 in 6 years. Now we're entering blind squirrel territory.
RE: ...  
bw in dc : 2/26/2020 11:33 pm : link
In comment 14820474 christian said:
Quote:
Maybe too much is made of Gettleman, and like most prolonged failures in organizations, the problems run deep and broad.



The problems most certainly start with Mara. He's THE reason for this spiral.

But Mara has anointed DG head of all football operations. Completely responsible for building this team. So he shoulders a ton of blame until proven otherwise...
RE: ...  
.McL. : 2/26/2020 11:45 pm : link
In comment 14820474 christian said:
Quote:
Maybe too much is made of Gettleman, and like most prolonged failures in organizations, the problems run deep and broad.

A team loses 10 or more games in 5/6 seasons, fires 3 coaches in 5 years, jettisons virtually all of the players, spends deep into their future budget not once but twice with virtually nothing to show. Something deep and broad is wrong. The last two years haven't shown the growth to warrant new trust. When a common refrain is "what was the alternative," I don't get convinced.

On to coach number 4 in 6 years. Now we're entering blind squirrel territory.

I tend to agree that DG is the symptom, not the disease.
I am in total agreement  
Bill2 : 2/27/2020 6:11 am : link
That the core problem lies in Mara trusting the leadership of what was obvious a team in long term decline even during the 2011 season.

That Super Bowl win hid a lot and the problems of today were set in spiral 2010 to 2016.

Even the win one more time with Eli mistake was set in motion 2010-2016.

Lets say you did want to win with Eli one more time. Why was the backup Geno Smith? How is that for preparation? Why stay with Flowers and Hart as opposed to cut one year earlier? They were habit, learning and technique messes from the get go. On and On.

Im not saying DG had a mess as an excuse for DG's pros and cons. I have no idea who ( and it might have been DG for all we know) finally woke up the mindset and said "we got a big mess".

Im saying the mess was not Reese and Ross (symptoms) and far before 2016. Sleeping when the core success factors were gone was the problem.

The proof is that when they needed to go bold they got it done ( results to be seen but the decision set was in the necessary bolder category).

What person though the strengths of Eli matched a WCO? The weaknesses of ELI matched a WCO. that's just one example
I'm falling into a bad trap  
Bill2 : 2/27/2020 7:54 am : link
I know better. There was a period I was responsible for turning around bad investments and sub performing portfolio companies.

What I quickly learned and learned each time is that any mental energy past the basic understanding of how they got bad was completely pointless and foolish.

The only thing you can do is focus on the few things that are best to do going forward

We are spending ( me too) endless games of Clue with no chance to ever figure out who shot the butler and when.

We are beyond impotent when we discuss who's to blame and why. It doesnt matter now, we cant change the owner and we wont ever know how and when some decisions were made and what the colonel thought when the old maid suddenky fell down the stairs in the dark.

No organization I ever knew was really as bad as thought when bad. Or as good when things looked good.

Nor does any decision in a turnaround look good until later. Nothing feels good. What you do most often looks foolish and the outside world has endless and often pointless ammunition to tie you up so they feel better about themselves.

Forward or leave are the choices.

Nothing about messy situations is provable or can be pinned down. And if it could you still can only go forward in some compromised way or walk away.

First step for me is to stop caring about Clue
Gettleman’s poor interviewing bothers me because it’s like cockroaches  
cosmicj : 2/27/2020 7:58 am : link
If you see one, there are others lurking.

So I see one of the jobs done badly and I suspect there is a lot of sloppiness elsewhere. I don’t expect excellence in public speaking. that’s not a job requirement. But the train wreck of DG’s interviews is on another level of bad.
The Eli “hate”  
cosmicj : 2/27/2020 8:03 am : link
I used to be one of Eli’s biggest fans but I thought his play was in clear decline even in 2016. I saw sloppiness, a lack of preparation, not just physical but mental mistakes. He wasn’t playing with the same intensity as earlier in his career.

We can harp on about the poor OL protecting him but this team wasn’t winning anything with a QB like Eli after 2015. He was just as responsible for this awful team the last few seasons as anyone.
I always liked Clue  
LBH15 : 2/27/2020 8:04 am : link
and going thru the secret passages in the corner rooms.
Cosmicj  
Bill2 : 2/27/2020 8:08 am : link
That is very true.

And like you, when I see one role of the job so badly done its unusual when all the others ones are being done well.

It could be that the entire nyg fo is more than bitter about the media and just sees the job as keeping them at bay.

The New York Yankees took that approach from Mattingly onwards. Just saw the media as an enemy and made it hard for them to tell stories and drive distractions into the organization.

Now that was in the tailspin years of Steinbrenner and the most toxic years of Levine...but the under siege mentality happens to teams in sports.

Winning kinda solves that for the media cant stray too far from good results
RE: RE: There wasn’t enough yin to yang, so to say.  
Britt in VA : 2/27/2020 8:23 am : link
In comment 14820286 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14820261 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


And it was from a fairly small, but extremely vocal, group.


Britt, we may not agree on much, but I actually like you as a poster... A lot...
I think of you as one of the good guys, and I have a lot of admiration for you with how you held up under a pretty withering assault. Some of it unnecessarily personal. And you never descended into the petty attacks.

I think for you in particular it probably felt more overwhelming because as the team's play descended into the far depths, you were the sole defender of your faith. You bore that weight almost entirely alone. I can understand your feelings in this manner.

The core/vocal group of realists is a pretty small group. They are for the most part respectful posters. Admittedly, there were a handful of times I felt compelled to call one or another of them of them out for behaving badly. But in general, the core group is respectful. There are other posters, who at least I do not consider part of that core group. The posters outside the core group are far more likely to engage in the ad-hominem attacks that I think are now being turned on all the core group of realists unjustly.


Appreciate that.

Going back to my original point, I don't believe I was the sole "defender of my faith". I just believe, as I stated originally, there was a silent majority that had just gone tired of the negativity over the years and stopped posting because they were frustrated. Frustrated with the Giants, and quite honestly, frustrated with the level of discourse over the Giants struggles. I know this because I keep in touch with many of them in spaces that are not BBI. I think when the negativity reached fever pitch around the Saquon pick and continued into the frenzy it did, people came out of "retirement" so to say and just posted mad because they were fed up with it all. Many still have not, but they are out there.

One thing Bill said that really resonated with me (and I don't think it was on this thread but one of the previous many on this topic), more than ever this place just became an echo chamber. And the echo became overwhelming for many, myself included. And so I became one of the sole "defenders of the faith" because I just felt like I had to put on the breaks and say "wait a minute, things are bad, but it's not ALL bad.". Because barely anybody was doing that, but it's true. There are positive things to build on and we have to focus on those to move this thing forward. There is no sense in rehashing right vs. wrong, how we got here, etc... Exercise in futility. This is where we are.

"Do you want to be here?"

"This is where I am"

-Odell Beckham/Lil Wayne, October 2018.
RE: Gettleman’s poor interviewing bothers me because it’s like cockroaches  
bw in dc : 2/27/2020 9:09 am : link
In comment 14820541 cosmicj said:
Quote:
If you see one, there are others lurking.

So I see one of the jobs done badly and I suspect there is a lot of sloppiness elsewhere. I don’t expect excellence in public speaking. that’s not a job requirement. But the train wreck of DG’s interviews is on another level of bad.


That’s been a point I have harped on. And I do the same exercise - if Gettleman is this unprepared and disorganized when he faces out to the public/media than why should I not think those traits exist inside the walls of Jints Central? These face outs should be layups, but with Gettleman they become landslides. And I really don’t know how anyone can feel confident that the organization is in good hands when he can’t do the easy stuff.

I watched Judge’s presser the other day. I have no idea what to expect from as the HC but he controls the presser, stays on message, and gives the great impression of having a plan. Whether it’s the right plan, or if he has the skills to execute the plan, remains to be seen, but he conducts himself like a professional and is buttoned up.

Then Gettleman gets up there and it’s hard to tell if that’s the GM of the Giants or the team plumber.
...  
christian : 2/27/2020 9:15 am : link
Bill, for me exchanges are never frustrating or futile if done respectfully, intellectually, and emotionally honestly.

If the goal is to in-point-of-fact figure something out, I can see something less than satisfying on the other side.

Exchanging opinions with good intentioned people, and if by some miracle learning something about football, is plenty enough for me to come back.

Britt, I think you hit something on the head in a way: "There are positive things to build on and we have to focus on those to move this thing forward."

Who's the "we" and what are we moving "forward?"
We, Giants fans.....  
Britt in VA : 2/27/2020 9:19 am : link
should probably stop dissecting the past and start looking at positive things and solutions in front of us to elevate the level of discourse and break the echo chamber of negativity that Bill has mentioned.

We (loosely), being the Giants, should also look at what they have, the young core they've built, and continue to add talent to that.
or don't.  
Britt in VA : 2/27/2020 9:24 am : link
but it seems to me turning every thread into retracing the steps back to Saquon Barkley at #2 is an exercise in futility.
RE: We, Giants fans.....  
christian : 2/27/2020 9:27 am : link
In comment 14820639 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
should probably stop dissecting the past and start looking at positive things and solutions in front of us to elevate the level of discourse and break the echo chamber of negativity that Bill has mentioned.

We (loosely), being the Giants, should also look at what they have, the young core they've built, and continue to add talent to that.


That's fair. Can you respect that some feel it's not an echo chamber and the Giants haven't built a young core yet?
Britt 2 points  
ron mexico : 2/27/2020 9:27 am : link
nothing we do here has any real world impact. It doesn’t matter if we are positive or negative. “We” can’t move anything forward.

The echo chamber exists on both sides. It is just as strong, if not stronger with the perma-optimists.
Yeah, but like I said.....  
Britt in VA : 2/27/2020 9:29 am : link
How long can we harp on it? What's done is done. Looking backward doesn't really do anything at this point except make those people that think that angry.

At this point, it's very well documented where those posters think it all went wrong. Very well documented.
What’s done is not done  
ron mexico : 2/27/2020 9:35 am : link
If it’s still the same group of people in charge.

If you want to move on from blaming Reese and Ross, and to a lesser extent Shurmur and the other coaches, I’m all for that.
RE: Yeah, but like I said.....  
christian : 2/27/2020 9:46 am : link
In comment 14820656 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
How long can we harp on it? What's done is done. Looking backward doesn't really do anything at this point except make those people that think that angry.

At this point, it's very well documented where those posters think it all went wrong. Very well documented.


Can you accept that some fans don't get angry when they look back, and that they feel the doers of what is done are still doing?
Wait - the "negative" people were the echo chamber?  
Greg from LI : 2/27/2020 9:47 am : link
That's rich. That door swings both ways.

Bill's right that none of us can truly know what's going on internally in the organization......but we all know the results, and they've been awful.

I don't see any reason to give them the benefit of the doubt until we see real, tangible improvement in results. Right now, all optimism is based solely on projection and wishcasting.
So you think going from thread to thread and posting 9-23....  
Britt in VA : 2/27/2020 9:48 am : link
is informative or inflammatory?

Do you think there are some that are still unaware of the record?
RE: So you think going from thread to thread and posting 9-23....  
ron mexico : 2/27/2020 9:56 am : link
In comment 14820678 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
is informative or inflammatory?

Do you think there are some that are still unaware of the record?


It’s just as informative as predicting a 10-6 record every single year.
considering the lavish praise some people like to heap on Gettleman  
Greg from LI : 2/27/2020 9:57 am : link
I think it slips some minds from time to time
I guess..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/27/2020 9:59 am : link
I've missed the posts that lavish praise on Gettleman.

Refuting that he isn't the most incompetent guy in the NFL isn't lavishing praise. It is just counter-pointing the overly negative takes on him.
RE: I guess..  
Greg from LI : 2/27/2020 10:06 am : link
In comment 14820701 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I've missed the posts that lavish praise on Gettleman.


I guess you have, because they certainly exist. Not as many as a year ago, since his team failed miserably for the second straight year, but they're still out there.
RE: RE: So you think going from thread to thread and posting 9-23....  
Britt in VA : 2/27/2020 10:07 am : link
In comment 14820694 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14820678 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


is informative or inflammatory?

Do you think there are some that are still unaware of the record?



It’s just as informative as predicting a 10-6 record every single year.


On a pre-season predict the record thread? Isn't that the place for such a post?
christian  
Bill2 : 2/27/2020 10:10 am : link
With respect and a thank you for the many good discussions on many subjects that you and I have had over the years; no I don't think those positives are available on most BBI threads at this time.

And Id say I am learning the least amount about football from folks on the site at this time.

Now its true that last year was the most frustrating time to be a fan of the NYG since I was on BBI, so maybe that's a piece of it; and certainly the product they send out the last few years makes it hard to concentrate on the football content but for me, too many threads feel like we are all stuck in a badly written soap opera but think we are still talking about How The Giants Turn.

As always, take care and stay well my friend
RE: christian  
christian : 2/27/2020 10:46 am : link
In comment 14820712 Bill2 said:
Quote:
With respect and a thank you for the many good discussions on many subjects that you and I have had over the years; no I don't think those positives are available on most BBI threads at this time.

And Id say I am learning the least amount about football from folks on the site at this time.

Now its true that last year was the most frustrating time to be a fan of the NYG since I was on BBI, so maybe that's a piece of it; and certainly the product they send out the last few years makes it hard to concentrate on the football content but for me, too many threads feel like we are all stuck in a badly written soap opera but think we are still talking about How The Giants Turn.

As always, take care and stay well my friend


Thanks for an honest and thoughtful response. My take is the negativity is a proportionate reaction to the quality of the product. I've never put more value on positive views inherently, maybe that's a character flaw for the analysts couch.

I am fascinated in the sense that this feels exactly how not to run a business after a prolonged period of success.
It's no secret that I'm not a fan of Dave Gettleman.  
Klaatu : 2/27/2020 11:01 am : link
I thought he should have been fired along with Pat Shurmur, but ownership thought differently and that's that. For better or worse, he's still the GM, and I hope things do get better while he remains at the helm, because they could hardly get much worse. So, I'm just going to sit back and watch what he does in free agency - now three weeks away - and in the draft, hoping that he makes some moves that will turn this floundering ship of a team around. I'm not expecting some miraculous turnaround, but I would like to see the proverbial arrow pointing up as the season progresses.

What irks me the most, though, is that the problems he identified when he was brought on board two years ago still exist. The offensive line is still a mess, and the defense is weak on all three levels. I hope some of that can be fixed with a better scheme and better coaching, but good coaching - even great coaching - can only take you so far if you don't have the talent to benefit from it. It seems to me that the Giants are pretty talent-deficient.

Anyway, I'm hesitant to say that this is a pivotal year for Gettleman, because, honestly I have no idea how short or long his "leash" is, so to speak, but I figure ownership expects him to put a much better product on the field than he has for the past two years. So, again, it's wait-and-see for me. I don't have much faith, but I do have hope, and I'll lean on that for as long as I can.
I don't get the sense its posters providing "lavish praise"  
LBH15 : 2/27/2020 11:12 am : link
on Gettleman at all. First of all, that would be quite brave.

It's indeed mostly defensive remarks, but they are in attacking fashion at the posters themselves in order to provide deflection from the GM/front office. Posters who aren't willing to give the benefit of the doubt or are skeptical enough of Gettleman with his recent set of missteps to get this ship moving in the right direction.

But to be fair, I will be on the look out for those offering up lavish praise to DG.
Klaatu...  
bw in dc : 2/27/2020 11:24 am : link
Mara made it clear - we had a coaching problem, not a GM problem. Otherwise, why keep Gettleman, too?

So Mara thinks we have talent, but that talent wasn't being properly developed or deployed by the previous coaching regime. So he cut Shurmur; and in Dave He Trusts lives on.

Okay. But then he hires a complete unknown again for that coaching side. So that's three HC hires in a row who really haven't had real or successful HC experience (hard to quantify Shurmur's tenure in Cleveland).

While I think Judge sounds pretty good thus far, who the hell knows what to expect. And we could just as easily be back in this predicament in two years.

So do you measure Gettleman now with a HC who was never a HC in high school? If Judge starts to grow discontent with DG how do you really take that seriously from a guy who has never been in that role? If anything, the hiring of Judge, IMV, has bought DG even more time. And I'm not sure any of us can say that's a comforting this...

This is why I was in favor of a complete overhaul. Bring in all new people to run the organization. Or let the HC be HC/Head of Football Ops.

Now we're back in this loop that we've seen the last 6 years...where the ending has always been a bad one.
bw in dc  
Klaatu : 2/27/2020 11:39 am : link
I wanted a complete overhaul, too, but we didn't get one, so, as I said, that's that. To borrow from Donald Rumsfeld, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had. Dave Gettleman is what we have. I'm not going to whine about it (much), I'm going to give him his own "clean slate" and see what he does in the next three months. He could crash and burn, or he could surprise. Mara may have a blind spot where Gettleman is concerned, but his vision might clear up pretty quickly if his GM doesn't show more than he has in the recent past. As I also said, for me it's wait-and-see. I figure that goes for ownership, too.
I wonder if some of you ever get tired  
figgy2989 : 2/27/2020 11:45 am : link
of arguing the same points/counter points every day. Seriously, you can take any Gettleman thread over the past two years and essentially cut and paste.
I've been thinking about DG for a while now  
Torrag : 2/27/2020 11:50 am : link
I like his philosophy regarding the trenches in general. That is has to be a focus. That said I think his mindset on what types of players are needed to succeed there in today's speed NFL needs rethinking on his part. Halapio is a perfect example. He's strong but sucks. Why? He can't adjust to the movement around him and put a hat on anyone.

Same applies to the linebackers. He acquires Ogletree who is essentially a box LB with subpar movement skills. He's big and strong but can't make plays in space. If you can't run with it you can't tackle it or defend it. That's today's game.

I'm hoping DG self scouts and takes these type of failures into account and adapts his thinking. If he doesn't we better hope Judge can make him understand the types of players he actually needs to install his schemes.
This..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/27/2020 11:53 am : link
isn't a very apt description of Ogletree:

Quote:
Same applies to the linebackers. He acquires Ogletree who is essentially a box LB with subpar movement skills. He's big and strong but can't make plays in space. If you can't run with it you can't tackle it or defend it. That's today's game.


Ogletree's strength was his ability to move ande his range. He's not particularly stout at the point of attack, but he was very good in coverage in the early part of his career.

He actually started out as a safety at Georgia and was a track star in High School
Ogletree's strength was his ability to move and his range in college  
Torrag : 2/27/2020 12:22 pm : link
the key word there ...'was'

He was a better college player and never lived up to his draft status because he didn't have the range and movement skills to succeed in the NFL.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 2/27/2020 12:32 pm : link
Ogletree made second team All-Pro, I think he was a good player.

I actually liked him as a player, but thought the trade was idiotic at the time.
RE: I guess..  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/27/2020 1:21 pm : link
In comment 14820701 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I've missed the posts that lavish praise on Gettleman.

Refuting that he isn't the most incompetent guy in the NFL isn't lavishing praise. It is just counter-pointing the overly negative takes on him.

Just search "Gettledogman" or "Jay on the Island" or a handful of others.

They absolutely exist. And they're often more obnoxious and extreme than even the most Terpsian negative posters.
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