I know, I know, the last thing we need is another DG thread. I just read the most recent one about "his wings being clipped" and I really don't get it. I've been a fan since the late 70's so I've seen enough to have been around the block.
The dislike (hatred?) for this guy is really over the top. I think we can all agree that he inherited a pretty shitty roster two years ago and I'd like to think we can all agree (granted it's early to tell definitively) that he had two good drafts including finding what looks like our future franchise QB. No doubt he has had his misses in FA and at least one peculiar trade in LW (but personally I think he's a player and will be resigned).
Can someone explain this to me? Is it his persona and the way he speaks to the media? Do you really just hate his player moves (if so what has he done that's so heinous-and don't bring up the LW trade, we've all seen enough about that). Do you dislike his drafts that much?
I'm not saying I'm a huge fan at all but the hatred seems nuts to me.
John seems like a good man with good intentions but I wonder about his ability level.
He built that terrible stadium
He hired McAdoo and Shurmur.
He bungled the Eli benching thing
But he was born with a license to print money so it doesn’t really matter.
Bam.
But it isn't as unbalanced as it often seems on here
I think if we are not more observant and closer to fact based we will miss signs of improvement and also legitimate signs of where it isn't
Usually things are not as bad as they appear when things look bad and not as good as they appear when things look good.
2011 is a perfect example of this. It actually hid a precipitous decline in the fundamental strengths of the team and when the execs missed it for a few years...the delay set in motion a long decline. imo
and prior to that post I always thought you were a pretty balanced contributor
I’m not asking you to actually go back and search, but, especially lately, I have given Dave props like when Snacks got released and there was another thread in the last week which I forget at the moment. Yes I am obviously not his biggest fan, but I do give him credit when credit is due, like drafting Jones. That’s an enormous PRO on his body of work here.
Quote:
I expect a GM, essentially an officer of the company, to sound prepared, organized, and professional.
If you prefer the buffoonery approach than you should be pleased.
We all can agree that stylistically DG leaves a lot to be desired. He’s pretty cringeworthy in front of the press. With due respect, I honestly don’t care if our GM is good in public, I care about him making sound football decisions.
This is a discussion board, so of course we’re all entitled to our opinions, and you and anyone who’s questioned/criticized at least some of DGs decisions has reasonable grounds.
IMO if it turns out he’s hit on the Jones pick and we have a new franchise QB for the next 12 year, that outweighs a lot of his bad decisions like trading for Ogletree or signing Stewart at RB. Bad decisions, but far less significant that nailing a top QB draft pick.
I think most can admit that some fans hatred of DG has gone to an irrational level, that’s what this thread is about.
Instead of evaluating his decisions one by one, many fans thing any decision he makes sucks just bc he made it. That’s where these reasonable discussions/debates get silly. IMO
Well said
I don't think he is uncaring, too silver spooned, lazy or too loyal.
Think he has a different problem common to Owner's/CEO's
FWIW, I do not expect the Giants to have a good record this year. I think they go full in on young. I think they will start out slow with a new staff, new schemes and new players. This is the true start to the rebuild, this year.
What I hope is that we start to see improvement - tangible improvement, reductions in turnovers, fewer defensive mistakes, fewer penalties and the like.
I therefore think, unless FA and the draft is totally botched, DG will be back at least one more year.
With that said, when DG was hired I am sure ownership instructed him that Eli was playing out his contract. Period end of story.
So now you have to try and walk the line of building a competitive team and yet with an eye toward a total turnover for the eventual new QB. That's not an easy job.
He got rid of some really terrible contracts and headcases. The OBJ trade in my mind was a single stroke of genius. To get what he did was an outright steal for one of the most overrated players in the league. He has set the franchise up with some young players with potential and has the cap space to make an impact at some positions of need.
He has whiffed on some of his FA choices. And he's not a polished corporate type. He's a 30 year career football guy. This is an important year for him because if the team does take a significant step forward that would vindicate him. Obviously Shurmur and his staff did him no favors.
Overall I am satisfied that the team will trend up. This was never going to get fixed in a year or two.
It was a legit compliment when I said I always had read your contributions as balanced.
FWIW, I do not expect the Giants to have a good record this year. I think they go full in on young. I think they will start out slow with a new staff, new schemes and new players. This is the true start to the rebuild, this year.
What I hope is that we start to see improvement - tangible improvement, reductions in turnovers, fewer defensive mistakes, fewer penalties and the like.
I therefore think, unless FA and the draft is totally botched, DG will be back at least one more year.
Personally, as I’ve mentioned, 7 wins should be the line in the sand. I don’t see how Dave deserves a 4th go at it if go 6-10 or worse.
It was a legit compliment when I said I always had read your contributions as balanced.
Thank you. So I will try to see it down the middle with Dave. If you (or anyone) read my critiques as perhaps over the top, call me out on it.
Loyal to TC for too long
Loyal to Reece for too long
Loyal to too many JAGS on the roster for too long
Loyal to Eli for too long
Loyal to DG for too long
I get giving guys the time they need to succeed, or turn it around, or expecting them to be perfect, BUT it would seem the Giants subscribe to theory of keeping a guy too long rather than letting someone go a little too soon.
As time goes on and if the new coaches are as good as well as hard working he matters less over time.
See you around. Thanks for getting the exchange to a good place. That's a measure of a man of substance. After all, we all have bad takes
Reese and Ross did a miserable job their last 5+ years here which left Gettleman with arguably the least talented roster in football not to mention an aging franchise QB with absolutely no option to replace him. Gettleman was tasked with the unenviable job of replacing a legend combined with little cap space.
Gettleman has made his share of mistakes especially in free agency but he has this team headed in the right direction. His first two drafts look like big successes after years of misses by his predecessors.
This is a huge offseason for the Giants as they finally have plenty of cap space and another top 5 pick. I think it's fair to judge Gettleman over what transpires next season.
The truth is this franchise is in far better shape than it was two years ago. If you don't think so you're either biased or an idiot.
His first draft absolutely does not look like a big success.
Talk about wishcasting
Quote:
His first two drafts look like big successes
His first draft absolutely does not look like a big success.
Quote:
The truth is this franchise is in far better shape than it was two years ago.
Talk about wishcasting
A lot of the perception the team is in no better shape than the day Dave walked in, a perspective I agree with, needs to factor in coaching. If Dave’s player acquisitions are as good as some feel, this new staff (which I am a big fan of) will justify them. Shurmer and Co. were beyond awful.
1) Not liking the hiring process
2) Wanting to pick Darnold
3) Dislike his personality in front of the media
4) Disliked him before he even got here
I was none of the above. I don't hate the guy. I couldn't care less about his media persona. When he was hired I thought his take no prisoners attitude might be a good thing... I didn't like the Barkley pick, but didn't want Darnold. I didn't really like the bulk of that first draft. I've never liked his FA moves. And despite all that I was arguing that he needed more time for his vision to play out well into this season. It wasn't until after a few games this year, and the lack of improvement was glaring that I changed my tune.
Not everybody who is now criticizing DG arrived at that place via the same route. Mine is based on what I view as a long series of bad decisions. That said, its not all bad with DG, its a mixed bag. As Bill2 has put it (I'm paraphrasing), there is some water level that defines average GM decision making. Most GMs live within a small delta of that average. DG lives there as well, I just think the delta for him is under, and that doesn't cut it for a rebuilding franchise.
1.) Daniel Jones
2.) Joe Judge
3.) Barkley
In that order.
On the other hand, you have people dropping gems like this, attacking anybody that has a different opinion, it goes by without a blink of an eye by those who wich to attack the people who criticize this GM.
There seems to be a theme lately, even among posters who I respect, that anybody who criticizes the GM is "hyberbolic", "emotional", and "unbalanced". Yet there are at least as many bad takes attacking the DG naysayers that as bad or worse than anything the naysayers post.
If you are going to claim "balance" they you should be attacking quotes like that one quote with even more vigor than The Boss' "hatred", since The Boss never shut down debate or discussion or dissenting opinion. The quote above attempts to do all the above.
Moved on from Eli
Cleared out the bad contracts
Re-organized scouting department
Bad coach hire (The choices WERE limited)
Moved on to new coach who most of us like
Bad Free Agent signings, but only one lingers
Cleaned out lockerroom (Loved OBJ but it was a good call)
Good trades except the LW where the jury is out
Fixed organizational leaks
Current status
Solid with cap
Good young players including QB
Good young coach (?)
Solid coaching staff
Still have some big roster holes to fill (OT, C, LB, ER)
Still have smaller roster holes to fill (FS, CB, WR)
Team has been drafting better
How can they maximize 2020 picks (trade?)
Need to make the right choices in FA
It's not all good, but I don't understand the hate. The needle is pointing up IMO.
We all can agree that stylistically DG leaves a lot to be desired. He’s pretty cringeworthy in front of the press. With due respect, I honestly don’t care if our GM is good in public, I care about him making sound football decisions.
This is a discussion board, so of course we’re all entitled to our opinions, and you and anyone who’s questioned/criticized at least some of DGs decisions has reasonable grounds.
IMO if it turns out he’s hit on the Jones pick and we have a new franchise QB for the next 12 year, that outweighs a lot of his bad decisions like trading for Ogletree or signing Stewart at RB. Bad decisions, but far less significant that nailing a top QB draft pick.
I think most can admit that some fans hatred of DG has gone to an irrational level, that’s what this thread is about.
Instead of evaluating his decisions one by one, many fans thing any decision he makes sucks just bc he made it. That’s where these reasonable discussions/debates get silly. IMO
A few things.
You are right. DG's legacy is tethered to Jones. If Jones is the guy who wins playoff games and looks to be a legit force multiplier at QB, then many of the blunders get set aside and likely forgotten.
I found the decision to hire DG loathsome, which is clearly on Mara, but I don't hate the guy. At the same time, I don't get mired down in these sidebars like "hating DG" and making it a big deal to focus on. Sort of a red-herring in my eyes.
Like I suggested earlier, I have a hard time finding many differences between the Reese era and Gettleman era to date. Both have a lot in common - poor records and poor roster decisions.
But here's my bottom line - until we start seeing DG's decision paying dividends, like wins, it's more than reasonable to question EVERY move. I just don't see much evidence to date to inspire any trust in his decision making...
Moved on from Eli
Cleared out the bad contracts
Re-organized scouting department
Bad coach hire (The choices WERE limited)
Moved on to new coach who most of us like
Bad Free Agent signings, but only one lingers
Cleaned out lockerroom (Loved OBJ but it was a good call)
Good trades except the LW where the jury is out
Fixed organizational leaks
Current status
Solid with cap
Good young players including QB
Good young coach (?)
Solid coaching staff
Still have some big roster holes to fill (OT, C, LB, ER)
Still have smaller roster holes to fill (FS, CB, WR)
Team has been drafting better
How can they maximize 2020 picks (trade?)
Need to make the right choices in FA
It's not all good, but I don't understand the hate. The needle is pointing up IMO.
Seems like a fair assessment to me.
Quote:
We all can agree that stylistically DG leaves a lot to be desired. He’s pretty cringeworthy in front of the press. With due respect, I honestly don’t care if our GM is good in public, I care about him making sound football decisions.
This is a discussion board, so of course we’re all entitled to our opinions, and you and anyone who’s questioned/criticized at least some of DGs decisions has reasonable grounds.
IMO if it turns out he’s hit on the Jones pick and we have a new franchise QB for the next 12 year, that outweighs a lot of his bad decisions like trading for Ogletree or signing Stewart at RB. Bad decisions, but far less significant that nailing a top QB draft pick.
I think most can admit that some fans hatred of DG has gone to an irrational level, that’s what this thread is about.
Instead of evaluating his decisions one by one, many fans thing any decision he makes sucks just bc he made it. That’s where these reasonable discussions/debates get silly. IMO
A few things.
You are right. DG's legacy is tethered to Jones. If Jones is the guy who wins playoff games and looks to be a legit force multiplier at QB, then many of the blunders get set aside and likely forgotten.
I found the decision to hire DG loathsome, which is clearly on Mara, but I don't hate the guy. At the same time, I don't get mired down in these sidebars like "hating DG" and making it a big deal to focus on. Sort of a red-herring in my eyes.
Like I suggested earlier, I have a hard time finding many differences between the Reese era and Gettleman era to date. Both have a lot in common - poor records and poor roster decisions.
But here's my bottom line - until we start seeing DG's decision paying dividends, like wins, it's more than reasonable to question EVERY move. I just don't see much evidence to date to inspire any trust in his decision making...
Talk about hypocrisy. You won't get mired down in sidebars like "hating Gettleman", yet you love creating them? "Giants Way", "EFC", etc... How are those any different?
I dont see a pro DG side. It's hard to have data to support it
I see push back on over the top negative that makes it hard to parse any one current decision given the carryover.
I see push back on unsupported and speculative narratives.
For me, it's just too much energy beating a dead horse. It's a dumping ground topic for ambient dissappointment and the hard to be patient nature of these times.
Imo
He's not.
The Reese thing is a strawman that people seem to use to belittle anyone who criticizes DG, typically suggesting that if you don't like the job DG has done, you must be a Reese loyalist.
The reality is, they're cut from the same Accorsi lineage here - their styles aren't quite as contrasting as many seem to think, IMO. Reese's tenure fell off the cliff mostly when Ross took on more responsibility - Reese deserves full blame for that as the one who allowed that to happen. And DG's biggest upgrade was probably Chris Pettit.
But they're really not quite as different as many think, apart from their public persona.
Reese's bread and butter seemed to center around athletic freaks, guys that had insane measurables but were not very polished, or very green, football players.
I don't know whether it was he, or Marc Ross, who coined the term "basketball on grass", but their drafts seemed to fit that analogy.
Gettleman and Accorsi are much more similar, and comparable. Traditional, if you will.
I think Reese's fault, perhaps, was believing that the NFL was evolving faster than it was, and that speed could overcome deficiencies on both lines.
- Disappointment over Donald
- His goofy press conferences
- Nostalgia for Reese
The Giants lost more games over the last 2 years under DG than any other 2 year period under a GM in the 16-game era.
DG oversaw hiring the only coach in the 16 game era to not have a .500 or above season.
The Giants paid Manning 40M+ for 6 wins.
There's arguably not one veteran acquisition from the 2018 offseason who will make the team this year.
This isn't make believe disappointment.
I believe there is a good argument Nate Solder at a 19.5M cap hit, entering his 10th year in the NFL, after 2 very poor seasons, will be a cap casualty. Yes.
He gets this whole year. If we do not look like a franchise with the arrow obviously pointing up get your pitchforks, I am with you. It has not been good enough. Until then, no need to call someone names battling cancer. Just stop. He is in the big job, it is fair to criticize but he deserves this year if you want a fair evaluation.
I saw an attempt to make a run at the playoffs from day one with a roster that I thought was so far away. Misanalyzing the team scared the shit out of me and made me lose a ton of confidence in him. Swinging and missing on Solder led to another loss of confidence. Extending and then trading Beckham, holding on to Jack Rabbit and then getting nothing for him, trading for Ogletree, and then trading for Williams all culminated in my thinking DG should have been fired.
Plus, we are 9-23 and we burned a year pretending we could compete. The people who cheered on the DG moves thinking we can compete should be the loudest critics (except that would force them to admit they were entirely wrong too).
I was fine with the DG hire - I thought his tenure in CAR was encouraging but he's sucked so far.
And I'm happy to give him credit where I think it's due. Jones looks excellent, I'd take him over any other QB the past two drafts. Trading Beckham (despite the initial error) looks good, trading Vernon was good.
I want DG to do well and the Giants to do well. I find his personality sort of funny and appreciate that he's been with the franchise for a long time.
DG oversaw hiring the only coach in the 16 game era to not have a .500 or above season.
The only GM to have a winning season in either of his first two years on the job was Reese.
And of course, Robustelli had a worse first two seasons, going 2-12 and 5-9, but he only had 14 games.
The bottom line should be that Gettleman inherited a poor football team. Most GM's do. Very few times is there an immediate turnaround to a playoff appearance from a 3-13 team, especially when the roster is turned over.
Ray Handley took over a SB team, never was ABOVE .500 and is considered a terrible hire. So it isn't like Gettleman is even the first GM IN THE 16 GAME SEASON ERA to hire a bad coach.
The Giants lost 23 games in Gettleman's first two years, which is also really bad and the most for a 2nd year GM in this era.
Again, I've always maintained Gettleman can only be fully judged after 3 full off seasons. But through 2 and change, he's made some unequivocal big mistakes. He admits, the owners admits it, the coach got fired, and the new coach has alluded to it.
It's not unfounded or bad fandom to believe Gettleman has done many unsuccessful things so far as the Giants GM.
Give Shurmur that SB team, and I doubt he does worse than what Handley did.
Give Shurmur that SB team, and I doubt he does worse than what Handley did.
This is a real race to the bottom. Both coaches were very bad.
I'd assume you'd agree Shurmur is in the column of Gettleman's mistakes.
I just reserve a special mantle for Captain Time Management - Handley
I just reserve a special mantle for Captain Time Management - Handley
I'm with ya. Handley single-handed ruined middle school for me.
I dont see a pro DG side. It's hard to have data to support it
I see push back on over the top negative that makes it hard to parse any one current decision given the carryover.
I see push back on unsupported and speculative narratives.
For me, it's just too much energy beating a dead horse. It's a dumping ground topic for ambient dissappointment and the hard to be patient nature of these times.
Imo
Sorry Bill...
My view is quite different...
Admittedly, I see a few "over the top" negative posts about DG. At least those posts are generally aimed at a debatable figure within the team... On the other hand, I see far more "over the top" posts from "defenders" giving unfair and unbalanced push back aimed directly at other posters. This dynamic has forced a wider polarization than would otherwise exist.
For example you completely ignored the quote that I posted above. There are an order of magnitude more posts like that, than there are "over the top" critical remarks of DG. The problem is, that this has become tribal. So, when you fall in one tribe, you ignore those kinds of posts from your tribe. They don't register. At this point Bill, I think you have clearly fallen into the tribe that is denouncing the critics. Whether or not your view of DG is positive or not, you are now in the criticize the critics tribe. Your posts in recent months reflect that "imbalance".
Something to consider.
And I haven't even started quoting my least favorite poster on BBI of all time yet.
Quote:
course. Shurmur is not a good HC.
I just reserve a special mantle for Captain Time Management - Handley
I'm with ya. Handley single-handed ruined middle school for me.
You know what sucks - my kids says the same thing about Eli Manning.
Of course, being the good parent I am - we watched the all the old games (to him anyway) so he can understand just how good the old Eli was...but it doesn't change the fact that he wasn't old enough to see/remember the Super Bowl wins and miraculous games he orchestrated through the playoffs.
Based on what I see, I disagree on the reason blinding emotion on the pro dg side.
I dont see a pro DG side. It's hard to have data to support it
I agree with 1000% that it is hard to be Pro DG and try to use anything like data to support your argument. There really just isn't much in the way of positive data.
There was a time that there was a pro-DG tribe that tried to do this. As the season went on, it became clear there was no defense. Instead it, that tribe morphed into the "Attack the Critics" tribe.
I'm sure you have noticed that I have not been participating in these debates much anymore. And even in this one, I am not debating DG's merits or demerits. Nor did I argue them yesterday on the the Peter King/DG thread. All I did there was dispute some statements with known facts and defend a poster against more "Attack the Critics" type posters.
Mara wanted a sharp break from the past and he wanted a hire from an outstanding winning program who was analytical, best practice and winning process focused. He wanted a big change
He personally went to Foxboro and talked to the FO and BB and RK. He asked RK for permission. He waited to get interviews with the guys he wanted who fit those criteria
About 5-6 were interviewed.
Two to three prior candidates who were made offers rejected Mara. One after he said yes then waited several days to say no. Highly unlikely that guy gets another shot anytime soon after screwing two NFL owners in one short period
It was late and Shurmur has a rep with developing QB's ( which was going to be a priority to transition from Eli).
He had a decent reputation around the league. He had developed QB's.
The combination of being late and PS own recruiting talents produced the mediocre coaching staff
Notice how much faster and prepared they were with the last search. But notice that once again Mara wanted bold and this time he got it.
But those facts don't fit the Jints Central BS so we ignore them
Mara's impatience with the status quo fired or caused the firing of 3 HC/ One GM/One head of scouting/ 6 coordinators and about 30 coaches in five years trying to get a much better foundation for the team. Facts.
Fault the execution/fault some moves...but the mossy old does nothing Jints Central motif lives on without full alignment with the actual facts only in some heads on BBI.
And they consider themselves realists.
I don't react to every post
Neither do you
Its a defense of the facts about who hired PS and how that came to passs
Where Mara fucked up and was not properly engaged was 2010 to 2016. That I do blame on him
The mess of 2016-2021 was a result of him trusting and being hands off too long
When he did begin to act he had no one around him to build upon and we lost 2016-2021 with an owners willing ness to act but no ability to do it well
Mara's impatience with the status quo fired or caused the firing of 3 HC/ One GM/One head of scouting/ 6 coordinators and about 30 coaches in five years trying to get a much better foundation for the team. Facts.
Fault the execution/fault some moves...but the mossy old does nothing Jints Central motif lives on without full alignment with the actual facts only in some heads on BBI.
And they consider themselves realists.
Except that there is good reason to debate the what the faults were in the execution... Was there a lazy adherence to old comforts and old practices. I'm not saying ther ewas or wasn't, but there is a debate there.
Your tone above is very dismissive.... Not balanced at all...
Funny, I feel the same.
So does being combative.
Look, we had good discussions not because I agreed with you but because I admired a poster who tried to be fact based in support of his points. I like that a lot in posters and respect it. There is not enough of it
But you might want to consider that over time, your weakest positions were attacked. Not by me. And you were not attacked. Your positions were attached but you over valued the supporting data as more telling than it often was and then conflated opposition to ideas as a greater insult than it was.
Now its all personal combat and sensitivity to the unfairness of it all. Which only accelerates replies in kind
Look at your posts from a year or two ago. Very good stuff. Maybe re find footing there ? I don't know
I know its not a good idea for us to engage this way so im going to back off until I find more solid ground