The 4th rounder is not on their team anymbore and the 6th rounder has rushed for 83 yards in two years.
Just wasted a bunch of crap room and future cap room. I wonder how much cap space we have in dead space from Olgeltree. Converting his salary into a bonus probably hurt.
We got Ogletree and a 7th rd pick and gave up a 4th and 6th. I dont think it was a bad trade.
It was because of 2 reasons:
A) He was terrible the year before in a 3/4 defense and we brought him into another 3-4 defense. He played his best in a 4-3 (I know most teams are multiple so please spare me)
B) His salary was pretty big and could have been used for other players that would have made the team better all around. He basically made our team older and gave us less cap space.
for the Giants not to release all their cuts at once? Why do it a few at a time?
Ummmm…. No. Because they can and that's the way they want to do it.
Also, we're still in the roster evaluation portion of the offseason. Judge and the coaching staff are new. Perhaps they want to keep guys like Ellison and Bethea. Unlikely, but possible.
for a declining player with a big cap hit and now we have dead money this coming season. Nice one Dave!
People talk about irrational negativity then walk right past people trying to put lipstick on this pig. They traded a pick for a guy likely to be cut for the right to pay him a lot of money to stink. At the time it didn't look good, with time it only looks worse.
for a declining player with a big cap hit and now we have dead money this coming season. Nice one Dave!
People talk about irrational negativity then walk right past people trying to put lipstick on this pig. They traded a pick for a guy likely to be cut for the right to pay him a lot of money to stink. At the time it didn't look good, with time it only looks worse.
Correct, imv. AO had age on his side but his performance was not ascending, and it was likely he would've been cut.
if I heard this correctly, it would be a dick move to keep players on the roster that are not part of the plan for next year.
Players want to be released at this point so that they and/or their agent can get to the combine to start rubbing elbows with team management for their next shot at employment.
Coach Judge: "You don’t sign older players to change the culture. That’s our job.”
This is pretty clearly in direct contradiction to Gettleman. E.g. the Jonathan Stewart signing, Antoine Bethea, and saying he was keeping Jenkins around to teach the young CB's.
Quote:
But when asked about Jenkins during his post-Draft press conference, GM Dave Gettleman said Jenkins isn't moving because he has some training to do.
Literally.
"Janoris has a bunch of puppies he's got to train," Gettleman told reporters.
Coach Judge: "You don’t sign older players to change the culture. That’s our job.”
This is pretty clearly in direct contradiction to Gettleman. E.g. the Jonathan Stewart signing, Antoine Bethea, and saying he was keeping Jenkins around to teach the young CB's.
Quote:
But when asked about Jenkins during his post-Draft press conference, GM Dave Gettleman said Jenkins isn't moving because he has some training to do.
Literally.
"Janoris has a bunch of puppies he's got to train," Gettleman told reporters.
Big Blue Interactive
@BigBlueInteract
·
1m
New York Giants have officially terminated the contracts of linebackers Alec Ogletree and Kareem Martin. The moves create an additional $13.05 million in cap space ($8.25 million by cutting Ogletree and $4.8 million by cutting Martin).
Been waiting for these cuts since the beginning of the month. Sucks these 2 guys lost their job, but it gives them an opportunity to catch on with another team in Free Agency.
I find it a bit puzzling that Bethea wasn't cut at the same time.
At the time, it was a good trade for Ogletree, not far removed from pro bowl status. Imo.
no it wasn't
Try giving a reason or what’s the point of your post. Giving up a 4th and a 6th (getting a 7th) for a rather young, pro bowl caliber player (at the time) is not a bad investment at all. As it turns out, he wasn’t what we had hoped for. It happens.
We got Ogletree and a 7th rd pick and gave up a 4th and 6th. I dont think it was a bad trade.
The Giants got nothing out of Ogletree. That's a bad trade.
He was OK in 2018 and had some good games plus he had 5 INTs and 2 TDs. i wouldnt call that nothing. heading into the 2019 many sites had him ranked in the 10-15 range of inside LBs. He was worth the trade but just like a lot of players in Betchers D they underperformed. Was it the players or the scheme?
when he was likely bidding against himself. It felt like a desperate move for a new GM, one of many he's made.
And this against the backdrop, very flawed, that they needed players of his age/experience/productivity to make the Giants competitive in 2018. Not a good look at all.
Complain about these guys, then complain about dead money or lost picks when they get cut.
This needed to happen. Short of a fucking time machine this is the only way forward, cut the players and try again.
Every GM misses some.
Now before you accuse me if being a DG apologist, I likely would have moved on from him if it were my decision, but at the same time I'm aware that I'm not a professional talent evaluator. Some of you have no self awareness or ability to reason.
have to laugh a little bit about Joe Judge saying "everyone has a clean slate."
No they don't.
Don't take a specific remark too literally.
He also made clear you don't ask vets to train youngsters or to change culture. If that was why you were brought in, you are on the bubble.
when he was likely bidding against himself. It felt like a desperate move for a new GM, one of many he's made.
And this against the backdrop, very flawed, that they needed players of his age/experience/productivity to make the Giants competitive in 2018. Not a good look at all.
DG truly thought they could contend in 2018, so many of his evaluations and decisions were ... rusty.
have to laugh a little bit about Joe Judge saying "everyone has a clean slate."
No they don't.
They did until they put the game film on. I imagine that the evaluation was done with "would I potentially keep this guy at his current salary?" Clearly the answer for Ogletree and Martin was "No."
If they were young guys and relatively cheap with the same performance? They may have gotten a chance to come in and show improvement with the new staff.
really makes me mistrust DG. Ogletree at least was a starter with the Rams and then with the Giants.
Martin started a grand total of 14 games on a godawful Cards defense in his first 4 seasons. He then proceeds to start for a grand total of 7 games over 2 seasons for the Giants. Gettleman signed him to a contract which results in a $6M cap hit in 2019. Meanwhile, we have a stopgap RT signing at crucial position earning under $2M and Gettleman is busy restructuring Solder's contract because we have no room for in-season moves. Farcical incompetence.
The only excuse I see is that DG was battling cancer during the Martin signing.
some of you guys are so ridiculously critical of DG it seems youd rather him fail then the team succeed. hindsight is a beautiful thing isnt it?
Ogletree turned out to be a bad signing but its impact is manageable, we have been an absolute barren wasteland at LB for yrs, there was an opportunity to bring a talented player with good track record to the team, so Gettleman did simple as that. it didnt work out and now weve moved on. what is the alternative, sit on our thumb and keep running out stiffs like Uani Unga?? They gotta jump on opportunities as they come, why is everyone so confident he was getting cut and even if thats true similar to LW, theres no guarantee theyd sign with us.
The 4th rounder is not on their team anymbore and the 6th rounder has rushed for 83 yards in two years.
Just wasted a bunch of crap room and future cap room. I wonder how much cap space we have in dead space from Olgeltree. Converting his salary into a bonus probably hurt.
along with Bethea, Mauro, Pierre, Buchannon etc. Only Golden produced. DG has to stop relying on the buddy system to find NFL vets. There's lots of guys out there, watch some film or listen to your Pro Personnel Dept.
for a declining player with a big cap hit and now we have dead money this coming season. Nice one Dave!
Of course, hindsight seems to be a useful tool, but that's not important right now. Neither is the lack of coaching or surrounding talent or that Ogletree wasn't half bad in 2018--all that matters is we must hang DG in effigy.
This move was a fucking blip. Every single veteran player in the NFL makes a lot of money. Ogltree was too. He was a stop gap move. Time to move on. If I had a dollar for every one of these "awful" moves that the best GMs ever have made, i'd be rich.
have to laugh a little bit about Joe Judge saying "everyone has a clean slate."
No they don't.
After I read that quote from him yesterday I was worried these moves may not happen. Thankfully the Giants used some common sense and made the correct business move here.
I do recall much sentiment expressed that, finally, the Giants were paying attention to the LB corps. The LB corps had been a joke and a laughingstock.
So, I don't mean to say it was a great trade. I guess I'm saying remember the intangibles of the deal. And remember the state of the LBs at the time and for several years prior.
Good start to the purge of overpaid shitheads. Next up hopefully Ellison and Bethea. That would represent the best bang for our buck on cuts. Guys that return nearly a 3:1 ratio of cap savings to dead money. This is the reason Solder should stay plus we have no one that can play OT besides him and Maybe Gates on the roster right now.
for a declining player with a big cap hit and now we have dead money this coming season. Nice one Dave!
Of course, hindsight seems to be a useful tool, but that's not important right now. Neither is the lack of coaching or surrounding talent or that Ogletree wasn't half bad in 2018--all that matters is we must hang DG in effigy.
This move was a fucking blip. Every single veteran player in the NFL makes a lot of money. Ogltree was too. He was a stop gap move. Time to move on. If I had a dollar for every one of these "awful" moves that the best GMs ever have made, i'd be rich.
for a declining player with a big cap hit and now we have dead money this coming season. Nice one Dave!
Of course, hindsight seems to be a useful tool, but that's not important right now. Neither is the lack of coaching or surrounding talent or that Ogletree wasn't half bad in 2018--all that matters is we must hang DG in effigy.
This move was a fucking blip. Every single veteran player in the NFL makes a lot of money. Ogltree was too. He was a stop gap move. Time to move on. If I had a dollar for every one of these "awful" moves that the best GMs ever have made, i'd be rich.
I agree, I didn’t think this was a bad trade when it was made. Ogletree has been a solid player and was also young. Many on here wanted us to draft him coming out of college.
I understood the logic behind the Ogletree trade. Gettleman bet his talent evaluation and his staff could get value. He turned out to be wrong, but not a tragedy.
That Martin acquisition was real bad. The Giants replaced Kennard with a worse player, and paid more.
Kennard isn't a super star, but he was solid and has played a lot and produced in Detroit. Martin got benched and then hurt. Eek.
for a declining player with a big cap hit and now we have dead money this coming season. Nice one Dave!
Of course, hindsight seems to be a useful tool, but that's not important right now. Neither is the lack of coaching or surrounding talent or that Ogletree wasn't half bad in 2018--all that matters is we must hang DG in effigy.
This move was a fucking blip. Every single veteran player in the NFL makes a lot of money. Ogltree was too. He was a stop gap move. Time to move on. If I had a dollar for every one of these "awful" moves that the best GMs ever have made, i'd be rich.
I agree, I didn’t think this was a bad trade when it was made. Ogletree has been a solid player and was also young. Many on here wanted us to draft him coming out of college.
* had been a solid player.
As mentioned by bullet above, the Ogletree signing
does indeed go in the L column for Gettleman. He had well below average year in 2017 and that's why the Rams wanted to shed him for the guys they really wanted to sign (yes a scheme change too but lets be real as to the bigger reason).
Gettleman also gave up a net draft pick (I think 2 for 1), but took on a big salary hit for a guy that simply didn't play well here at all for two years.
Last season Ogletree got caught looking foolish way too many times in both run and pass.
I understood the logic behind the Ogletree trade. Gettleman bet his talent evaluation and his staff could get value. He turned out to be wrong, but not a tragedy.
That Martin acquisition was real bad. The Giants replaced Kennard with a worse player, and paid more.
Kennard isn't a super star, but he was solid and has played a lot and produced in Detroit. Martin got benched and then hurt. Eek.
All of those Cardinal players were busts with the exception of Golden who had a decent season last year. Martin was a trainwreck.
And can we please stop referring to everyone that doesn't
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
1h
The Giants currently have just $23.2M of their cap space for 2020 allotted to their defense. That’s less than Khalil Mack and Aaron Donald will count against their teams' cap. It's by far the least in the NFL, with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers next on the list at $42.9M.
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
1h
The Giants currently have just $23.2M of their cap space for 2020 allotted to their defense. That’s less than Khalil Mack and Aaron Donald will count against their teams' cap. It's by far the least in the NFL, with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers next on the list at $42.9M.
I saw this - how crazy is that?
That explains a lot about why the defense was so terrible last year.
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
1h
The Giants currently have just $23.2M of their cap space for 2020 allotted to their defense. That’s less than Khalil Mack and Aaron Donald will count against their teams' cap. It's by far the least in the NFL, with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers next on the list at $42.9M.
If only there was a Defensive Tackle we could sign at above market prices to help us catch up.
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
1h
The Giants currently have just $23.2M of their cap space for 2020 allotted to their defense. That’s less than Khalil Mack and Aaron Donald will count against their teams' cap. It's by far the least in the NFL, with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers next on the list at $42.9M.
If only there was a Defensive Tackle we could sign at above market prices to help us catch up.
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
1h
The Giants currently have just $23.2M of their cap space for 2020 allotted to their defense. That’s less than Khalil Mack and Aaron Donald will count against their teams' cap. It's by far the least in the NFL, with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers next on the list at $42.9M.
Nice work cherry picking that stat. He couldn't wait to post that one I bet. It was probably driving him nuts that the Giants waited so long to cut these 2 guys.
The Giants also have 50 million more in cap space then those teams.
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
1h
The Giants currently have just $23.2M of their cap space for 2020 allotted to their defense. That’s less than Khalil Mack and Aaron Donald will count against their teams' cap. It's by far the least in the NFL, with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers next on the list at $42.9M.
That's why I thought Bettcher got a raw deal. I don't think he's any great shakes, but with the roster he was given, what could you expect from him?
Hopefully the Giants find useful defensive players to overspend on.
And grow our LBs like the winning teams do!! No need to spend half the cap on ILBs and use that money to sign a couple of OLs!! I fear that might just make too much sense for Giants fans though...
Of that group, I don't believe a single of these 22 players clearly upgraded over the incumbent at the position.
Quote:
LB/DE Kareem Martin (Signed by Giants; 3-Years, $15 million)
LT Nate Solder (Signed by Giants; 4-Years, $62 million)
OG Patrick Omameh (Signed by Giants; 3-Years, $15 million)
CB Curtis Riley (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $630,000 salary)
WR Cody Latimer (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $2.5 million)
S Michael Thomas (Signed by Giants; 2-Years, $4 million)
TE Scott Simonson (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $705,000 salary)
OG Zac Kerin (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $630,000 salary)
LB Connor Barwin (Signed by Giants; 2-Years, $5 million)
CB Leonard Johnson (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $790,000 salary)
RB Jonathan Stewart (Signed by Giants; 2-Years, $6.9 million)
CB Teddy Williams (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $880,000)
CB B.W. Webb (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $815,000)
DE Josh Mauro (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $880,000)
CB William Gay (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $1.105 million)
QB Alex Tanney (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $555,000 salary)
DT A.J. Francis (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $705,000 salary)
S Orion Stewart (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $480,000 salary)
WR Russell Shepard (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $1.25 million)
OT Jarron Jones (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $480,000 salary)
NT John Jenkins (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $790,000 salary)
LB Nate Stupar (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $850,000 salary)
for a declining player with a big cap hit and now we have dead money this coming season. Nice one Dave!
Of course, hindsight seems to be a useful tool, but that's not important right now. Neither is the lack of coaching or surrounding talent or that Ogletree wasn't half bad in 2018--all that matters is we must hang DG in effigy.
This move was a fucking blip. Every single veteran player in the NFL makes a lot of money. Ogltree was too. He was a stop gap move. Time to move on. If I had a dollar for every one of these "awful" moves that the best GMs ever have made, i'd be rich.
in other words, dumb moves are ok? Tell me more!
OK, it wasn't really a dumb move.
Want more? It was a stop gap move that didn't help the team much. IT also didn't really hurt the team much.
Not every move is dumb. Some are just moves.
Releasing ed mccaffery essntially to sign Mark Jackson and worse yet, Arthur Marshall? Dumb. Very dumb. Signing a 27-28 year old LB who was coming off a good year, at the expense of a 4th round pick and some money, while hoping he can hold the fort for a few years? I wouldnt call that dumb. I'd call it meh, time to move on.
Bettcher lobbied for a bunch of Arizona Cardinals who flopped in this defense.
Raw deal?
He's still unemployed as far as I know.
He did - but did he have any alternative?
This wasn't a case of Dan Reeves turning the Giants into the Jersey Broncos. He brought on a low-mid cost stop gap (Bethea), suggested the hiring of Martin and Golden. Golden more than earned his keep. The "best" player you could argue was displaced as a result was Devon Kennard.
They stripped the defense bare in an attempt to rid themselves of 'bad characters', and didn't bother to rebuild it.
but I don't care about those moves anymore. That team wasn't going anywhere even if they hit 1-2-3 HRs during that span. I also don't think it's really that hard to sign an expensive and talented vet FA. Nor do I think it's an indictable offense if a guy like Ogletree underwhelms. I'd prefer overwhelming results but I don't think DG is incapable of finding vet FA talent. I guess we will see but the guy pulled Golden and Tate and many good looking mid to late round picks. He can have a good 2020 offseason.
Signing a 27-28 year old LB who was coming off a good year, at the expense of a 4th round pick and some money, while hoping he can hold the fort for a few years? I wouldnt call that dumb. I'd call it meh, time to move on.
You love to bash. Bash away.
I don't believe you'll find much supporting information on that claim.
for a declining player with a big cap hit and now we have dead money this coming season. Nice one Dave!
Of course, hindsight seems to be a useful tool, but that's not important right now. Neither is the lack of coaching or surrounding talent or that Ogletree wasn't half bad in 2018--all that matters is we must hang DG in effigy.
This move was a fucking blip. Every single veteran player in the NFL makes a lot of money. Ogltree was too. He was a stop gap move. Time to move on. If I had a dollar for every one of these "awful" moves that the best GMs ever have made, i'd be rich.
in other words, dumb moves are ok? Tell me more!
OK, it wasn't really a dumb move.
Want more? It was a stop gap move that didn't help the team much. IT also didn't really hurt the team much.
Not every move is dumb. Some are just moves.
Releasing ed mccaffery essntially to sign Mark Jackson and worse yet, Arthur Marshall? Dumb. Very dumb. Signing a 27-28 year old LB who was coming off a good year, at the expense of a 4th round pick and some money, while hoping he can hold the fort for a few years? I wouldnt call that dumb. I'd call it meh, time to move on.
You love to bash. Bash away.
so it's smart to use draft picks AND significant cap money to get a guy who's not all that good? I had no idea! I'm just spitballing here, but maybe they could have just used the cap money to sign a mediocre linebacker? Hell, they could have signed two or three of them! And then they'd still have those draft picks!
not that many even complained here until he flashed in Detroit. Even then, he's more or less a 4-3 SAM and a rigid piece who only plays ok downhill. All in all, let go a very average player.
so it's smart to use draft picks AND significant cap money to get a guy who's not all that good? I had no idea! I'm just spitballing here, but maybe they could have just used the cap money to sign a mediocre linebacker? Hell, they could have signed two or three of them! And then they'd still have those draft picks!
Ogletree was a good linebacker and a starting LB for the Rams. A 4th and a 6th for him and a 7th is not a bad trade at all no matter how you cut it. He had a decent 2018 with 5 ints.
They did spend the money at get what turned out to be a mediocre LB so your point on that was not so good.
In the end he did not work out. Happens.
not that many even complained here until he flashed in Detroit. Even then, he's more or less a 4-3 SAM and a rigid piece who only plays ok downhill. All in all, let go a very average player.
The struggle for me is the corresponding investment in Martin, who to be kind wouldn't approach the tepid endorsement of Kennard.
The story for me is talent evaluation at the get-go, and so many swings and misses when trying to rehaul.
True, but he only had to bring them in because Reese left the roster in such a mess. So you see it's really still all Reese's fault.
^ this guy gets it. DG is not responsible for anything. Ever.
Please see above argument that he did not trade anything for Ogeltree because the players that LA drafted with the picks turned out to be garbage...
What about the cap difference in terms of what we paid AO vs those draft picks? Could we have used that $25 millions to get an OL?
No because you can't just "buy" an offensive line because the team needs one. It's not that easy is it? They have to be coached up in the right scheme...Nate Solder experienced this with the Giants.
They took a decent C and let him walk to save a million or two
then turned around and lit money on fire like trading picks for Ogletree, who likely would have been cut loose by the Rams regardless and available for no picks and a lower contract.
Then the cherry on the sundae, going with Halapio and Pulley at C.
I'm hoping that Judge and his staff are better at evaluating talent, because the Giants have been lacking for a very long time.
not that many even complained here until he flashed in Detroit. Even then, he's more or less a 4-3 SAM and a rigid piece who only plays ok downhill. All in all, let go a very average player.
The struggle for me is the corresponding investment in Martin, who to be kind wouldn't approach the tepid endorsement of Kennard.
The story for me is talent evaluation at the get-go, and so many swings and misses when trying to rehaul.
There's no argument Martin was a miss, in my book. The only thing you could say was they gambled on him ascending because the last season in AZ he flashed and looked the part.
In retrospect there were a couple of players in that pay range who've been pretty decent. Trent Murphy and Devon Kennard have been on the field and produced.
The biggest issue with Martin is there were no leading indicators from his time in Arizona he was an ascending player.
Jcn touches on the "touchy" subject of talent evaluation
Whereas I think we can all say that DG's success with free agents has been fairly bad, and that his draft evaluations have been better.
Is that a function of just being better at evaluations in the Draft, or just bad luck in free agency? Or is it really just the same eval process and good luck with Draft.
He has used a fair amount of his picks in the early rounds.
all logic points towards that being a Bettcher signing.
Fair, but there's got to be some sort of balance between getting the coaches the players they want and being the top dog who can identify when a player isn't going to be worth it to sign and telling the coach no.
But I agree that DG gets at least a partial pass for that, especially since it would have been another thing to criticize DG for if he DIDN'T get Bettcher his guys and some would undoubtedly be saying, "sure the coaches suck, but the GM isn't getting them the guys they want."
Like I said - I'm willing to give DG a pass on Bethea and Martin
Whereas I think we can all say that DG's success with free agents has been fairly bad, and that his draft evaluations have been better.
Is that a function of just being better at evaluations in the Draft, or just bad luck in free agency? Or is it really just the same eval process and good luck with Draft.
He has used a fair amount of his picks in the early rounds.
It should be said that when he was head of Pro Scouting under Accorsi, he did an excellent job of evaluating NFL talent available in free agency. At least that's what Accorsi has said and why he was recommended as GM.
at talent evaluation back then, both pro and college.
The question remains - what changed, sometime around 2012, that caused the whole operation to basically go off the rails? They have changed a lot since then, but for the most part the scouting department remains intact. I think it's fair to say that talent evaluation has been the Giants biggest issue the past 8 years, they're just not good at getting good players in the door.
at talent evaluation back then, both pro and college.
The question remains - what changed, sometime around 2012, that caused the whole operation to basically go off the rails? They have changed a lot since then, but for the most part the scouting department remains intact. I think it's fair to say that talent evaluation has been the Giants biggest issue the past 8 years, they're just not good at getting good players in the door.
In fairness, the quality of the fan base has degraded even more. Every swinging dick is now a starting Monday morning QB.
RE: RE: In fairness the Giants did a much better job
at talent evaluation back then, both pro and college.
The question remains - what changed, sometime around 2012, that caused the whole operation to basically go off the rails? They have changed a lot since then, but for the most part the scouting department remains intact. I think it's fair to say that talent evaluation has been the Giants biggest issue the past 8 years, they're just not good at getting good players in the door.
In fairness, the quality of the fan base has degraded even more. Every swinging dick is now a starting Monday morning QB.
Fairly certain that has not caused the degradation of the NYG franchise.
RE: RE: In fairness the Giants did a much better job
In fairness, the quality of the fan base has degraded even more. Every swinging dick is now a starting Monday morning QB.
The fanbase is just fine. The Giants comparatively speaking have been pretty damn bad. Over the past three years they've been making the Browns and Jets look competent in comparison.
You didn't have to be a MMQB or Nostradamus to know that the Giants were making some stupid fucking mistakes, like giving up draft picks to acquire a guy destined for FA in the midst of a losing season.
RE: They took a decent C and let him walk to save a million or two
then turned around and lit money on fire like trading picks for Ogletree, who likely would have been cut loose by the Rams regardless and available for no picks and a lower contract.
Then the cherry on the sundae, going with Halapio and Pulley at C.
I'm hoping that Judge and his staff are better at evaluating talent, because the Giants have been lacking for a very long time.
A "decent Center"?? He would have been getting paid like a mid-tier starter and he hasn't done that in SF. To call him "decent" while shitting on other players who were just as poor is really stretching things.
RE: They took a decent C and let him walk to save a million or two
then turned around and lit money on fire like trading picks for Ogletree, who likely would have been cut loose by the Rams regardless and available for no picks and a lower contract.
Then the cherry on the sundae, going with Halapio and Pulley at C.
I'm hoping that Judge and his staff are better at evaluating talent, because the Giants have been lacking for a very long time.
are we talking about Weston Richburg? He still hasn't played a full season - Richburg is really not the answer and hardly qualifies as being let go to save a million or two. He was widely panned for his inability to stay healthy and his inconsistency during the season when he was on the field.
Jones may not have been any great shakes - but they let Richburg walk (justifiable, given his new contract), traded Jones, and decided to go with the platoon of two journeymen.
Should anyone have been surprised at what happened at the center position?
Further - for a team that believes defense begins in the middle, spending high draft picks and large sums of money to shore it up - why on Earth would you believe that a strategy involving two dollar store players at C is a good idea?
Was the worst center in the NFL pre injury. Now he may be the worst center in all of football (college and xfl included). We must upgrade this position
No - not Richburg, Jones
jcn56 : 2/26/2020 11:28 pm : link : reply
Jones may not have been any great shakes - but they let Richburg walk (justifiable, given his new contract), traded Jones, and decided to go with the platoon of two journeymen.
Should anyone have been surprised at what happened at the center position?
It was basically a swap out of interchangeable parts. Jones has exactly 2 starts in the last two years with Minny and spent almost all of the past season out. If the answer isn't Halapio, the flipside of that isn't that Jones was.
collection of centers for the past 6-7 years might be the worst in the NFL.
Since the Giants won the SB in 2012 when David Baas (the last legit center they had) the following players have played and/or have been rostered by the Giants at Center:
2013 - Baas (3 games and then his career was done), Kevin Boothe, Dallas Reynolds, Jim Cordle
Alec ogletree
@MROGLETREE_47
·
2h
After sleeping on it I want to say thank you to
@Giants
for allowing me and my family to be apart of a 1st class organization. Though things didn’t turn out the way we both expected I will always have respect for this organization✊🏿 As the saying goes once a giant always a giant!
Alec ogletree
@MROGLETREE_47
·
2h
After sleeping on it I want to say thank you to
@Giants
for allowing me and my family to be apart of a 1st class organization. Though things didn’t turn out the way we both expected I will always have respect for this organization✊🏿 As the saying goes once a giant always a giant!
Very classy and respectful on his part. Consumate professional.
Giants.com - ( New Window )
😎
😎
Big hell no to Clowney from me.
Ummmm…. No. Because they can and that's the way they want to do it.
Maybe Judge reviewed Ogletree's film just yesterday.
We got Ogletree and a 7th rd pick and gave up a 4th and 6th. I dont think it was a bad trade.
Doesn't mean we would have picked those players.
Just wasted a bunch of crap room and future cap room. I wonder how much cap space we have in dead space from Olgeltree. Converting his salary into a bonus probably hurt.
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The 4th rounder is not on their team anymbore and the 6th rounder has rushed for 83 yards in two years.
Doesn't mean we would have picked those players.
^This. We also used our other fourth that year for Lauletta.
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the Ogletree trade goes in the L column.
We got Ogletree and a 7th rd pick and gave up a 4th and 6th. I dont think it was a bad trade.
It was because of 2 reasons:
A) He was terrible the year before in a 3/4 defense and we brought him into another 3-4 defense. He played his best in a 4-3 (I know most teams are multiple so please spare me)
B) His salary was pretty big and could have been used for other players that would have made the team better all around. He basically made our team older and gave us less cap space.
so if we gave up the #1 pick in the draft but the guy ended up a bust - we still gave up nothing? WTF?
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for the Giants not to release all their cuts at once? Why do it a few at a time?
Ummmm…. No. Because they can and that's the way they want to do it.
Also, we're still in the roster evaluation portion of the offseason. Judge and the coaching staff are new. Perhaps they want to keep guys like Ellison and Bethea. Unlikely, but possible.
Can you shoutout a move/target that is expected?
People talk about irrational negativity then walk right past people trying to put lipstick on this pig. They traded a pick for a guy likely to be cut for the right to pay him a lot of money to stink. At the time it didn't look good, with time it only looks worse.
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for a declining player with a big cap hit and now we have dead money this coming season. Nice one Dave!
People talk about irrational negativity then walk right past people trying to put lipstick on this pig. They traded a pick for a guy likely to be cut for the right to pay him a lot of money to stink. At the time it didn't look good, with time it only looks worse.
Correct, imv. AO had age on his side but his performance was not ascending, and it was likely he would've been cut.
Players want to be released at this point so that they and/or their agent can get to the combine to start rubbing elbows with team management for their next shot at employment.
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the Ogletree trade goes in the L column.
We got Ogletree and a 7th rd pick and gave up a 4th and 6th. I dont think it was a bad trade.
The Giants got nothing out of Ogletree. That's a bad trade.
This is pretty clearly in direct contradiction to Gettleman. E.g. the Jonathan Stewart signing, Antoine Bethea, and saying he was keeping Jenkins around to teach the young CB's.
Literally.
"Janoris has a bunch of puppies he's got to train," Gettleman told reporters.
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Coach Judge: "You don’t sign older players to change the culture. That’s our job.”
This is pretty clearly in direct contradiction to Gettleman. E.g. the Jonathan Stewart signing, Antoine Bethea, and saying he was keeping Jenkins around to teach the young CB's.
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But when asked about Jenkins during his post-Draft press conference, GM Dave Gettleman said Jenkins isn't moving because he has some training to do.
Literally.
"Janoris has a bunch of puppies he's got to train," Gettleman told reporters.
Agreed.
no it wasn't
@BigBlueInteract
·
1m
New York Giants have officially terminated the contracts of linebackers Alec Ogletree and Kareem Martin. The moves create an additional $13.05 million in cap space ($8.25 million by cutting Ogletree and $4.8 million by cutting Martin).
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At the time, it was a good trade for Ogletree, not far removed from pro bowl status. Imo.
no it wasn't
Try giving a reason or what’s the point of your post. Giving up a 4th and a 6th (getting a 7th) for a rather young, pro bowl caliber player (at the time) is not a bad investment at all. As it turns out, he wasn’t what we had hoped for. It happens.
3? 4? 5, tops?
Um. Gettleman traded for Ogletree, not Reese.
Both were brought aboard by Dave Gettleman.
At the time he was a 26 yr old really good player, at a position of need. That is the type of player you try to get.
Unfortunately, he turned out to be a lesser player when traded here
Martin was brought in for/by the DC and was just not good from the start.
Move on.
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THE GETTLEMASTER GETTING IT DONE
Both were brought aboard by Dave Gettleman.
True, but he only had to bring them in because Reese left the roster in such a mess. So you see it's really still all Reese's fault.
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In comment 14819630 Mr. Bungle said:
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the Ogletree trade goes in the L column.
We got Ogletree and a 7th rd pick and gave up a 4th and 6th. I dont think it was a bad trade.
The Giants got nothing out of Ogletree. That's a bad trade.
He was OK in 2018 and had some good games plus he had 5 INTs and 2 TDs. i wouldnt call that nothing. heading into the 2019 many sites had him ranked in the 10-15 range of inside LBs. He was worth the trade but just like a lot of players in Betchers D they underperformed. Was it the players or the scheme?
thats not how you evaluate a trade
we might have picked those exact players and Ogletree was expensive towards the CAP for his production.
It was an L for DG, plain and simple.
QB Hits < LW
I think there is zero interest among the decision makers for making such a move.
Neither do I. I was joking with that post. And, I do not hope Dave franchises LW.
😎
those would be immediate power moves
CAP Space increases to about 75 million with these 2 moves.
@BigBlueInteract
·
8s
#Giants could also create further cap room by cutting:
Tight End Rhett Ellison ($5,000,000)
Safety Antoine Bethea ($2,750,000)
Center Spencer Pulley ($2,750,000)
No they don't.
No they don't.
I said this yesterday, everyone has a clean slate who they are allowing to come to camp.. ;)
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In comment 14819704 Justlurking said:
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THE GETTLEMASTER GETTING IT DONE
Both were brought aboard by Dave Gettleman.
True, but he only had to bring them in because Reese left the roster in such a mess. So you see it's really still all Reese's fault.
^ this guy gets it. DG is not responsible for anything. Ever.
Please see above argument that he did not trade anything for Ogeltree because the players that LA drafted with the picks turned out to be garbage...
I think there is zero interest among the decision makers for making such a move.
Seems like the last guy Judge would want on this roster.
No they don't.
Everyone (who remains with the team until training camp) has a clean slate
This needed to happen. Short of a fucking time machine this is the only way forward, cut the players and try again.
Every GM misses some.
Now before you accuse me if being a DG apologist, I likely would have moved on from him if it were my decision, but at the same time I'm aware that I'm not a professional talent evaluator. Some of you have no self awareness or ability to reason.
No they don't.
Don't take a specific remark too literally.
He also made clear you don't ask vets to train youngsters or to change culture. If that was why you were brought in, you are on the bubble.
Let me clarify, I definitely think its best we released him but I don't think he anywhere near as bad as some are saying
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when he was likely bidding against himself. It felt like a desperate move for a new GM, one of many he's made.
And this against the backdrop, very flawed, that they needed players of his age/experience/productivity to make the Giants competitive in 2018. Not a good look at all.
DG truly thought they could contend in 2018, so many of his evaluations and decisions were ... rusty.
No they don't.
They did until they put the game film on. I imagine that the evaluation was done with "would I potentially keep this guy at his current salary?" Clearly the answer for Ogletree and Martin was "No."
If they were young guys and relatively cheap with the same performance? They may have gotten a chance to come in and show improvement with the new staff.
@BigBlueInteract
·
8s
#Giants could also create further cap room by cutting:
Tight End Rhett Ellison ($5,000,000)
Safety Antoine Bethea ($2,750,000)
Center Spencer Pulley ($2,750,000)
This, although I think Pulley is back. The other two will be gone, especially with the emergence of Kaden Smith.
Martin started a grand total of 14 games on a godawful Cards defense in his first 4 seasons. He then proceeds to start for a grand total of 7 games over 2 seasons for the Giants. Gettleman signed him to a contract which results in a $6M cap hit in 2019. Meanwhile, we have a stopgap RT signing at crucial position earning under $2M and Gettleman is busy restructuring Solder's contract because we have no room for in-season moves. Farcical incompetence.
The only excuse I see is that DG was battling cancer during the Martin signing.
Ogletree turned out to be a bad signing but its impact is manageable, we have been an absolute barren wasteland at LB for yrs, there was an opportunity to bring a talented player with good track record to the team, so Gettleman did simple as that. it didnt work out and now weve moved on. what is the alternative, sit on our thumb and keep running out stiffs like Uani Unga?? They gotta jump on opportunities as they come, why is everyone so confident he was getting cut and even if thats true similar to LW, theres no guarantee theyd sign with us.
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In comment 14819709 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 14819704 Justlurking said:
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THE GETTLEMASTER GETTING IT DONE
Both were brought aboard by Dave Gettleman.
True, but he only had to bring them in because Reese left the roster in such a mess. So you see it's really still all Reese's fault.
^ this guy gets it. DG is not responsible for anything. Ever.
Please see above argument that he did not trade anything for Ogeltree because the players that LA drafted with the picks turned out to be garbage...
What about the cap difference in terms of what we paid AO vs those draft picks? Could we have used that $25 millions to get an OL?
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The 4th rounder is not on their team anymbore and the 6th rounder has rushed for 83 yards in two years.
Just wasted a bunch of crap room and future cap room. I wonder how much cap space we have in dead space from Olgeltree. Converting his salary into a bonus probably hurt.
there's nothing worse than wasting crap room.
Of course, hindsight seems to be a useful tool, but that's not important right now. Neither is the lack of coaching or surrounding talent or that Ogletree wasn't half bad in 2018--all that matters is we must hang DG in effigy.
This move was a fucking blip. Every single veteran player in the NFL makes a lot of money. Ogltree was too. He was a stop gap move. Time to move on. If I had a dollar for every one of these "awful" moves that the best GMs ever have made, i'd be rich.
No they don't.
After I read that quote from him yesterday I was worried these moves may not happen. Thankfully the Giants used some common sense and made the correct business move here.
I do recall much sentiment expressed that, finally, the Giants were paying attention to the LB corps. The LB corps had been a joke and a laughingstock.
So, I don't mean to say it was a great trade. I guess I'm saying remember the intangibles of the deal. And remember the state of the LBs at the time and for several years prior.
No they don't.
If they did, that would make for a terrible draft.
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for a declining player with a big cap hit and now we have dead money this coming season. Nice one Dave!
Of course, hindsight seems to be a useful tool, but that's not important right now. Neither is the lack of coaching or surrounding talent or that Ogletree wasn't half bad in 2018--all that matters is we must hang DG in effigy.
This move was a fucking blip. Every single veteran player in the NFL makes a lot of money. Ogltree was too. He was a stop gap move. Time to move on. If I had a dollar for every one of these "awful" moves that the best GMs ever have made, i'd be rich.
in other words, dumb moves are ok? Tell me more!
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for a declining player with a big cap hit and now we have dead money this coming season. Nice one Dave!
Of course, hindsight seems to be a useful tool, but that's not important right now. Neither is the lack of coaching or surrounding talent or that Ogletree wasn't half bad in 2018--all that matters is we must hang DG in effigy.
This move was a fucking blip. Every single veteran player in the NFL makes a lot of money. Ogltree was too. He was a stop gap move. Time to move on. If I had a dollar for every one of these "awful" moves that the best GMs ever have made, i'd be rich.
I agree, I didn’t think this was a bad trade when it was made. Ogletree has been a solid player and was also young. Many on here wanted us to draft him coming out of college.
That Martin acquisition was real bad. The Giants replaced Kennard with a worse player, and paid more.
Kennard isn't a super star, but he was solid and has played a lot and produced in Detroit. Martin got benched and then hurt. Eek.
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In comment 14819658 Enzo said:
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for a declining player with a big cap hit and now we have dead money this coming season. Nice one Dave!
Of course, hindsight seems to be a useful tool, but that's not important right now. Neither is the lack of coaching or surrounding talent or that Ogletree wasn't half bad in 2018--all that matters is we must hang DG in effigy.
This move was a fucking blip. Every single veteran player in the NFL makes a lot of money. Ogltree was too. He was a stop gap move. Time to move on. If I had a dollar for every one of these "awful" moves that the best GMs ever have made, i'd be rich.
I agree, I didn’t think this was a bad trade when it was made. Ogletree has been a solid player and was also young. Many on here wanted us to draft him coming out of college.
* had been a solid player.
Gettleman also gave up a net draft pick (I think 2 for 1), but took on a big salary hit for a guy that simply didn't play well here at all for two years.
Last season Ogletree got caught looking foolish way too many times in both run and pass.
Bad linebacker play continues to haunt this team.
That Martin acquisition was real bad. The Giants replaced Kennard with a worse player, and paid more.
Kennard isn't a super star, but he was solid and has played a lot and produced in Detroit. Martin got benched and then hurt. Eek.
All of those Cardinal players were busts with the exception of Golden who had a decent season last year. Martin was a trainwreck.
Ogletree was signed to be the leader of this defense and was paid as the 5th or so highest salary of all Inside LBs in the league.
He was not a stop-gap...he was just another signing that kind of sucked.
@JordanRaanan
·
1h
The Giants currently have just $23.2M of their cap space for 2020 allotted to their defense. That’s less than Khalil Mack and Aaron Donald will count against their teams' cap. It's by far the least in the NFL, with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers next on the list at $42.9M.
@JordanRaanan
·
1h
The Giants currently have just $23.2M of their cap space for 2020 allotted to their defense. That’s less than Khalil Mack and Aaron Donald will count against their teams' cap. It's by far the least in the NFL, with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers next on the list at $42.9M.
I saw this - how crazy is that?
That explains a lot about why the defense was so terrible last year.
@JordanRaanan
·
1h
The Giants currently have just $23.2M of their cap space for 2020 allotted to their defense. That’s less than Khalil Mack and Aaron Donald will count against their teams' cap. It's by far the least in the NFL, with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers next on the list at $42.9M.
If only there was a Defensive Tackle we could sign at above market prices to help us catch up.
:-)
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Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
1h
The Giants currently have just $23.2M of their cap space for 2020 allotted to their defense. That’s less than Khalil Mack and Aaron Donald will count against their teams' cap. It's by far the least in the NFL, with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers next on the list at $42.9M.
If only there was a Defensive Tackle we could sign at above market prices to help us catch up.
:-)
HAHAHHAHA - well played.
Draft Wills
No they don't.
In Joe’s defense..
He did say the players that come here in April in the main press interview . So a clean slate from that point on .
@JordanRaanan
·
1h
The Giants currently have just $23.2M of their cap space for 2020 allotted to their defense. That’s less than Khalil Mack and Aaron Donald will count against their teams' cap. It's by far the least in the NFL, with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers next on the list at $42.9M.
Nice work cherry picking that stat. He couldn't wait to post that one I bet. It was probably driving him nuts that the Giants waited so long to cut these 2 guys.
The Giants also have 50 million more in cap space then those teams.
@JordanRaanan
·
1h
The Giants currently have just $23.2M of their cap space for 2020 allotted to their defense. That’s less than Khalil Mack and Aaron Donald will count against their teams' cap. It's by far the least in the NFL, with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers next on the list at $42.9M.
That's why I thought Bettcher got a raw deal. I don't think he's any great shakes, but with the roster he was given, what could you expect from him?
Hopefully the Giants find useful defensive players to overspend on.
Raw deal?
He's still unemployed as far as I know.
Of that group, I don't believe a single of these 22 players clearly upgraded over the incumbent at the position.
LT Nate Solder (Signed by Giants; 4-Years, $62 million)
OG Patrick Omameh (Signed by Giants; 3-Years, $15 million)
CB Curtis Riley (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $630,000 salary)
WR Cody Latimer (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $2.5 million)
S Michael Thomas (Signed by Giants; 2-Years, $4 million)
TE Scott Simonson (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $705,000 salary)
OG Zac Kerin (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $630,000 salary)
LB Connor Barwin (Signed by Giants; 2-Years, $5 million)
CB Leonard Johnson (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $790,000 salary)
RB Jonathan Stewart (Signed by Giants; 2-Years, $6.9 million)
CB Teddy Williams (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $880,000)
CB B.W. Webb (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $815,000)
DE Josh Mauro (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $880,000)
CB William Gay (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $1.105 million)
QB Alex Tanney (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $555,000 salary)
DT A.J. Francis (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $705,000 salary)
S Orion Stewart (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $480,000 salary)
WR Russell Shepard (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $1.25 million)
OT Jarron Jones (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $480,000 salary)
NT John Jenkins (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $790,000 salary)
LB Nate Stupar (Signed by Giants; 1-Year, $850,000 salary)
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In comment 14819658 Enzo said:
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for a declining player with a big cap hit and now we have dead money this coming season. Nice one Dave!
Of course, hindsight seems to be a useful tool, but that's not important right now. Neither is the lack of coaching or surrounding talent or that Ogletree wasn't half bad in 2018--all that matters is we must hang DG in effigy.
This move was a fucking blip. Every single veteran player in the NFL makes a lot of money. Ogltree was too. He was a stop gap move. Time to move on. If I had a dollar for every one of these "awful" moves that the best GMs ever have made, i'd be rich.
in other words, dumb moves are ok? Tell me more!
OK, it wasn't really a dumb move.
Want more? It was a stop gap move that didn't help the team much. IT also didn't really hurt the team much.
Not every move is dumb. Some are just moves.
Releasing ed mccaffery essntially to sign Mark Jackson and worse yet, Arthur Marshall? Dumb. Very dumb. Signing a 27-28 year old LB who was coming off a good year, at the expense of a 4th round pick and some money, while hoping he can hold the fort for a few years? I wouldnt call that dumb. I'd call it meh, time to move on.
You love to bash. Bash away.
Raw deal?
He's still unemployed as far as I know.
He did - but did he have any alternative?
This wasn't a case of Dan Reeves turning the Giants into the Jersey Broncos. He brought on a low-mid cost stop gap (Bethea), suggested the hiring of Martin and Golden. Golden more than earned his keep. The "best" player you could argue was displaced as a result was Devon Kennard.
They stripped the defense bare in an attempt to rid themselves of 'bad characters', and didn't bother to rebuild it.
In comment 14819745 Eric from BBI said:
@BigBlueInteract
·
8s
#Giants could also create further cap room by cutting:
Tight End Rhett Ellison ($5,000,000)
Safety Antoine Bethea ($2,750,000)
Center Spencer Pulley ($2,750,000)
I am sure there are other players that we should have landed rather than some of the slobs we did land, but it's done now. I am looking forward.
Never rest on your laurels, 2016 wound up being an anomaly.
It also shows how young the Defensive Roster is. Most of the Defensive starters were on rookie contracts last year.
You love to bash. Bash away.
I don't believe you'll find much supporting information on that claim.
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In comment 14819855 djm said:
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In comment 14819658 Enzo said:
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for a declining player with a big cap hit and now we have dead money this coming season. Nice one Dave!
Of course, hindsight seems to be a useful tool, but that's not important right now. Neither is the lack of coaching or surrounding talent or that Ogletree wasn't half bad in 2018--all that matters is we must hang DG in effigy.
This move was a fucking blip. Every single veteran player in the NFL makes a lot of money. Ogltree was too. He was a stop gap move. Time to move on. If I had a dollar for every one of these "awful" moves that the best GMs ever have made, i'd be rich.
in other words, dumb moves are ok? Tell me more!
OK, it wasn't really a dumb move.
Want more? It was a stop gap move that didn't help the team much. IT also didn't really hurt the team much.
Not every move is dumb. Some are just moves.
Releasing ed mccaffery essntially to sign Mark Jackson and worse yet, Arthur Marshall? Dumb. Very dumb. Signing a 27-28 year old LB who was coming off a good year, at the expense of a 4th round pick and some money, while hoping he can hold the fort for a few years? I wouldnt call that dumb. I'd call it meh, time to move on.
You love to bash. Bash away.
so it's smart to use draft picks AND significant cap money to get a guy who's not all that good? I had no idea! I'm just spitballing here, but maybe they could have just used the cap money to sign a mediocre linebacker? Hell, they could have signed two or three of them! And then they'd still have those draft picks!
Il iked him and wished it had worked out, but imo, it was far from malpractice to move on
so it's smart to use draft picks AND significant cap money to get a guy who's not all that good? I had no idea! I'm just spitballing here, but maybe they could have just used the cap money to sign a mediocre linebacker? Hell, they could have signed two or three of them! And then they'd still have those draft picks!
Ogletree was a good linebacker and a starting LB for the Rams. A 4th and a 6th for him and a 7th is not a bad trade at all no matter how you cut it. He had a decent 2018 with 5 ints.
They did spend the money at get what turned out to be a mediocre LB so your point on that was not so good.
In the end he did not work out. Happens.
The struggle for me is the corresponding investment in Martin, who to be kind wouldn't approach the tepid endorsement of Kennard.
The story for me is talent evaluation at the get-go, and so many swings and misses when trying to rehaul.
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In comment 14819716 Tesla said:
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In comment 14819709 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 14819704 Justlurking said:
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THE GETTLEMASTER GETTING IT DONE
Both were brought aboard by Dave Gettleman.
True, but he only had to bring them in because Reese left the roster in such a mess. So you see it's really still all Reese's fault.
^ this guy gets it. DG is not responsible for anything. Ever.
Please see above argument that he did not trade anything for Ogeltree because the players that LA drafted with the picks turned out to be garbage...
What about the cap difference in terms of what we paid AO vs those draft picks? Could we have used that $25 millions to get an OL?
No because you can't just "buy" an offensive line because the team needs one. It's not that easy is it? They have to be coached up in the right scheme...Nate Solder experienced this with the Giants.
Then the cherry on the sundae, going with Halapio and Pulley at C.
I'm hoping that Judge and his staff are better at evaluating talent, because the Giants have been lacking for a very long time.
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not that many even complained here until he flashed in Detroit. Even then, he's more or less a 4-3 SAM and a rigid piece who only plays ok downhill. All in all, let go a very average player.
The struggle for me is the corresponding investment in Martin, who to be kind wouldn't approach the tepid endorsement of Kennard.
The story for me is talent evaluation at the get-go, and so many swings and misses when trying to rehaul.
There's no argument Martin was a miss, in my book. The only thing you could say was they gambled on him ascending because the last season in AZ he flashed and looked the part.
In retrospect there were a couple of players in that pay range who've been pretty decent. Trent Murphy and Devon Kennard have been on the field and produced.
The biggest issue with Martin is there were no leading indicators from his time in Arizona he was an ascending player.
Is that a function of just being better at evaluations in the Draft, or just bad luck in free agency? Or is it really just the same eval process and good luck with Draft.
He has used a fair amount of his picks in the early rounds.
Fair, but there's got to be some sort of balance between getting the coaches the players they want and being the top dog who can identify when a player isn't going to be worth it to sign and telling the coach no.
But I agree that DG gets at least a partial pass for that, especially since it would have been another thing to criticize DG for if he DIDN'T get Bettcher his guys and some would undoubtedly be saying, "sure the coaches suck, but the GM isn't getting them the guys they want."
Of course - the flipside of that is I credit Bettcher for the only FA success of DG's tenure with the Giants, Markus Golden.
Is that a function of just being better at evaluations in the Draft, or just bad luck in free agency? Or is it really just the same eval process and good luck with Draft.
He has used a fair amount of his picks in the early rounds.
It's perplexing why this is such a weakness now.
The question remains - what changed, sometime around 2012, that caused the whole operation to basically go off the rails? They have changed a lot since then, but for the most part the scouting department remains intact. I think it's fair to say that talent evaluation has been the Giants biggest issue the past 8 years, they're just not good at getting good players in the door.
The question remains - what changed, sometime around 2012, that caused the whole operation to basically go off the rails? They have changed a lot since then, but for the most part the scouting department remains intact. I think it's fair to say that talent evaluation has been the Giants biggest issue the past 8 years, they're just not good at getting good players in the door.
In fairness, the quality of the fan base has degraded even more. Every swinging dick is now a starting Monday morning QB.
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at talent evaluation back then, both pro and college.
The question remains - what changed, sometime around 2012, that caused the whole operation to basically go off the rails? They have changed a lot since then, but for the most part the scouting department remains intact. I think it's fair to say that talent evaluation has been the Giants biggest issue the past 8 years, they're just not good at getting good players in the door.
In fairness, the quality of the fan base has degraded even more. Every swinging dick is now a starting Monday morning QB.
Fairly certain that has not caused the degradation of the NYG franchise.
In fairness, the quality of the fan base has degraded even more. Every swinging dick is now a starting Monday morning QB.
The fanbase is just fine. The Giants comparatively speaking have been pretty damn bad. Over the past three years they've been making the Browns and Jets look competent in comparison.
You didn't have to be a MMQB or Nostradamus to know that the Giants were making some stupid fucking mistakes, like giving up draft picks to acquire a guy destined for FA in the midst of a losing season.
Then the cherry on the sundae, going with Halapio and Pulley at C.
I'm hoping that Judge and his staff are better at evaluating talent, because the Giants have been lacking for a very long time.
A "decent Center"?? He would have been getting paid like a mid-tier starter and he hasn't done that in SF. To call him "decent" while shitting on other players who were just as poor is really stretching things.
Then the cherry on the sundae, going with Halapio and Pulley at C.
I'm hoping that Judge and his staff are better at evaluating talent, because the Giants have been lacking for a very long time.
are we talking about Weston Richburg? He still hasn't played a full season - Richburg is really not the answer and hardly qualifies as being let go to save a million or two. He was widely panned for his inability to stay healthy and his inconsistency during the season when he was on the field.
Should anyone have been surprised at what happened at the center position?
Further - for a team that believes defense begins in the middle, spending high draft picks and large sums of money to shore it up - why on Earth would you believe that a strategy involving two dollar store players at C is a good idea?
Obviously not.
jcn56 : 2/26/2020 11:28 pm : link : reply
Jones may not have been any great shakes - but they let Richburg walk (justifiable, given his new contract), traded Jones, and decided to go with the platoon of two journeymen.
Should anyone have been surprised at what happened at the center position?
It was basically a swap out of interchangeable parts. Jones has exactly 2 starts in the last two years with Minny and spent almost all of the past season out. If the answer isn't Halapio, the flipside of that isn't that Jones was.
Since the Giants won the SB in 2012 when David Baas (the last legit center they had) the following players have played and/or have been rostered by the Giants at Center:
2013 - Baas (3 games and then his career was done), Kevin Boothe, Dallas Reynolds, Jim Cordle
2014 - Dallas Reynolds, JD Walton
2015 - Richburg, Reynolds, Jones
2016 - Jones, Richburg
2017 - Jones, Richburg
2018 - Pulley, Halapio
2019 - Halapio, Pulley
What a pile of crap.
@MROGLETREE_47
·
2h
After sleeping on it I want to say thank you to
@Giants
for allowing me and my family to be apart of a 1st class organization. Though things didn’t turn out the way we both expected I will always have respect for this organization✊🏿 As the saying goes once a giant always a giant!
@MROGLETREE_47
·
2h
After sleeping on it I want to say thank you to
@Giants
for allowing me and my family to be apart of a 1st class organization. Though things didn’t turn out the way we both expected I will always have respect for this organization✊🏿 As the saying goes once a giant always a giant!
Very classy and respectful on his part. Consumate professional.