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Edge Rusher - Free Agent or Draft Pick?

Klaatu : 2/27/2020 3:14 pm
Would you rather see the Giants sign one of the top free agent Edge Rushers (knowing that the price will be high), or would you rather see them wait until the draft to look for one (without any guarantee that they'll be able to get one who'll have an immediate impact)?

I go back and forth on this. On one hand, it would be great to get a real pass-rushing threat on board ASAP, especially if they're not sold on Carter and/or Ximines eventually becoming that threat. On the other hand, they might be better served using their free agent cash elsewhere, at other positions where they have holes.

Of course, "you can never have enough pass-rushers." So, if you feel they should do both, sign one and draft one, you can make that case, too.
Ideally you sign one in fa  
Mattman : 2/27/2020 3:17 pm : link
So if the value drops in the draft you can grab one there or if not you grab the value that is there.

Don’t want to go into the draft needing to pick a position
Free Agent  
Reb8thVA : 2/27/2020 3:21 pm : link
I want to draft an LT we can rely to play consistently well for 10-12 years protecting the blind side of our franchise QB and opening holes for are franchise QB. Whether it be Thomas, Wills, Becton or Wirfs!

After that, I want to draft a Center with the same expectations.

I'd avoid the top guys  
giants#1 : 2/27/2020 3:21 pm : link
They all have some warts and inconsistent production, but will cost premium dollars. Wouldn't mind a guy from the 2nd tier on a Preston Smith type contract (maybe 3/$36M for Golden?), but if you can't find a guy like that, then I'd look for someone coming off an injured/down season (Vernon?) and try and get them on a 1 year "prove it" deal.

RE: Free Agent  
giants#1 : 2/27/2020 3:23 pm : link
In comment 14821103 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
I want to draft an LT we can rely to play consistently well for 10-12 years protecting the blind side of our franchise QB and opening holes for are franchise QB. Whether it be Thomas, Wills, Becton or Wirfs!

After that, I want to draft a Center with the same expectations.


Hopefully we get one of those LTs after trading down a few spots and acquiring an extra 2nd rounder (+more). Then grab a top OC in rd 2 and a LB with speed (edge or ILB)!
Draft one.  
tyrik13 : 2/27/2020 3:29 pm : link
As I said on another thread why gut your cap on one ER when you can get a few good ones in the draft and keep them cost controlled and groom them to how you want. Our biggest problem has been we’ve on FA acquisitions and they haven’t planned out and it destroys our cap. Time to do something different
The more I am thinking of it,  
DonnieD89 : 2/27/2020 3:30 pm : link
the more I feel the Giants are going to draft an OT with the first pick. I am very curious to see how they think of Zack Baun. He could be both an off LB and ER. He could possibly be there for the 2nd round pick. I really don't want to over pay for any of these FA ERs.
If its not C Young  
Payasdaddy : 2/27/2020 3:34 pm : link
Which it most likely wont be, we may have to wait till 2021 to get true #1 ER
We need OLINE which draft is heavy in
WR is so deep it behooves us to pick a WR if value is there
ILB and S is a must
Another CB (probably FA if not Okudah)
Team has so many holes may not fill more than g=half the needs with legit core players
JMHO
Don't want a $20 mill ER  
section125 : 2/27/2020 3:35 pm : link
in FA.
They will have decide between Simmons and one of the OTs.

I'm torn. I think Simmons is the real deal but they have to get serious about the line.
Get the LT (I think Thomas)  
Angus : 2/27/2020 3:37 pm : link
If they think they can safely trade down, that's ok. Getting a center in Free Agency that knows the game should be a goal as well.
Carl Nassib is a good target in Free agency  
Angus : 2/27/2020 3:38 pm : link
As well.
The problem is  
JonC : 2/27/2020 3:38 pm : link
I don't see many options this year.
I’d rather go...  
bw in dc : 2/27/2020 3:48 pm : link
OL solution in the draft and stop-gap edge rush in FA with Golden and/or Quinn.
RE: The problem is  
section125 : 2/27/2020 3:50 pm : link
In comment 14821127 JonC said:
Quote:
I don't see many options this year.


They have so many holes, they should just get best value and if it is a FS, ILB, OT then start plugging holes with young guys with talent if it improves the position.
i would avoid the top of the market..  
2cents : 2/27/2020 4:00 pm : link
unfortunately I think were in for another down or "rebuilding" yr so I am wary about throwing money at to that top group, especially with the amount of space available this yr, these contracts are going to be crazy. the only guy I would really target in that tier is Ngakoue.

otherwise I think we should be looking for short, movable contracts for guys with something to prove. a guy like nassib may fit that bill, the idea would be to run a deeper rotation, let them earn their snaps and then if (when) the season turns south try to cash in on some playoff hopefuls for some extra draft stock to finish this team off for contention come 2021.





RE: Carl Nassib is a good target in Free agency  
Rjanyg : 2/27/2020 4:07 pm : link
In comment 14821125 Angus said:
Quote:
As well.


Was coach Chaos at PSU when Carl was there? If so, I can see this happening.

Gross Matos might be a target if he drops to round 2.
RE: RE: Carl Nassib is a good target in Free agency  
bw in dc : 2/27/2020 4:18 pm : link
In comment 14821167 Rjanyg said:
Quote:

Was coach Chaos at PSU when Carl was there? If so, I can see this happening.

Gross Matos might be a target if he drops to round 2.


I think that will be very unexpected if Gross Matos falls into round two.

But if we could grab first round talent like Matos in round two...I'll definitely take that.
Both  
blueblood : 2/27/2020 4:20 pm : link
they need more than one
I think the Giants...  
2ndroundKO : 2/27/2020 4:39 pm : link
should and will spend during FA this year but I would not spring for a premium-priced edge rusher. None of them are worth it, IMO --unless maybe Shaq Barrett springs free.

I'd aim for a Shaq Lawson, maybe. Mario Williams. Robert Quinn. Carl Nassib.

Guys like that and then look for value in the draft.
RE: RE: Carl Nassib is a good target in Free agency  
Klaatu : 2/27/2020 5:03 pm : link
In comment 14821167 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
In comment 14821125 Angus said:


Quote:


As well.



Was coach Chaos at PSU when Carl was there? If so, I can see this happening.

Gross Matos might be a target if he drops to round 2.


Yes. Spencer was the DL coach when Nassib was there. From Wikipedia, re Nassib:
Quote:
Because of his stellar 2015 season, he was named the Big Ten Nagurski-Woodson Defensive Player of the Year for 2015,[9] was presented with the Hendricks Award for the nation's top defensive end, and also given the Lombardi Award for being the best college football lineman or linebacker.


Could a reunion be in the works?
Nassib  
XBRONX : 2/27/2020 5:09 pm : link
is not a starter.
RE: Nassib  
Klaatu : 2/27/2020 5:24 pm : link
In comment 14821246 XBRONX said:
Quote:
is not a starter.


Not a full-time starter, no. He's started in only 54% of the games he's appeared in. But in a limited role he's been fairly productive - much more for Tampa Bay than he was for Cleveland - and he'd be a heck of lot cheaper than some of the other ER's on the market. He should definitely be in the conversation.
Both. I want 2 of the 2nd Tier guys and a draft pick.  
rasbutant : 2/27/2020 5:24 pm : link
I'll copy this from the thread on Clowney...

Clowney may be the only top Edge Guy to hit the market
rasbutant : 2:39 pm : link : reply
Can certainly see why people would be interested. I would be excited to have him on the team...but...

For me though, I'd like a more conservative approach and grab 2 for the price of 1 in a Shaq Lawson/Robert Quinn and a Golden/Van Noy/Beasley. I'd also check out what Everson Griffen wants.
Fill holes in FA particularly on D  
ChicagoMarty : 2/27/2020 5:25 pm : link
Jints can get a top C in McGovern/Karras

a top corner in Jones/Bradberry/Fuller

a top ILB in Littleton/Schobert/Kwiatkoski

a top S in McCourty/Harris/Simmons

They can then concentrate on drafting into the strenght of the draft and obtain the OT they absolutely have to have as well as a quality wr

Da Bears went this route a couple of years ago in the lead-in to their 12-4 year. They were rebuilding just like we are now. They filled holes at lb and secondary and at the last minute Khalil Mack was freed up by the Raiders and Gruden traded him to Da Bears for picks

Da Bears fixed what they could in FA and the Draft and then got lucky

Of course they passed up Mahomes at qb in the draft but they did a real nice job on their D

We can do the same. Lets address what we can control in fixining holes with known quality and experience in FA instead of spending all of our capital on a pricey ER or rolling the dice in the draft
Problem is there are 32 teams in the league  
rasbutant : 2/27/2020 5:26 pm : link
and there is going to be a lot of competition for the 2nd tier guys also. Going to be hard to grab 2 of them, but Green Bay did it, so i have hopes the Giants can do it this year.
ChicagoMarty  
Klaatu : 2/27/2020 5:48 pm : link
I'd forget about the Denver guys, McGovern and Simmons. I figure they'll either get tagged or re-signed. I don't think the Rams are in a position to tag Littleton, but he'll probably cost just as much to sign as a top-tier ER. I read somewhere that he's high on the Eagles' wish list, among other teams.

I'd love to get Harris and Jones, but I don't know if we could afford both, especially not if we sign Williams. We could damn sure use both, though.

I could live with "settling" for Karras and Kwiatkoski. Nick the K won't give you the coverage ability that Littleton would, but improvements in the secondary should mitigate that somewhat. I think Karras could be had for a pretty reasonable deal. I'd still draft a good OC prospect to groom behind him, but I like the fact that he's played RG as well as OC. A little insurance just in case Zeitler gets banged up again.
Klaatu  
ChicagoMarty : 2/27/2020 6:52 pm : link
Don't give up on the Denver guys.

Remember that Elway is one of the tighter tightwads around
Also  
ChicagoMarty : 2/27/2020 6:55 pm : link
ER is a much different market - read more expensive market - then ILB

Littleton might be gettable.

Put it this way.

Littleton is a much more likely get then any of the high dollar ER's on the market
RE: Klaatu  
WillVAB : 2/27/2020 7:17 pm : link
In comment 14821332 ChicagoMarty said:
Quote:
Don't give up on the Denver guys.

Remember that Elway is one of the tighter tightwads around


Elway has already said he’ll tag Simmons if he has too.
RE: Fill holes in FA particularly on D  
LBH15 : 2/27/2020 7:28 pm : link
In comment 14821268 ChicagoMarty said:
Quote:
Jints can get a top C in McGovern/Karras

a top corner in Jones/Bradberry/Fuller

a top ILB in Littleton/Schobert/Kwiatkoski

a top S in McCourty/Harris/Simmons

They can then concentrate on drafting into the strenght of the draft and obtain the OT they absolutely have to have as well as a quality wr

Da Bears went this route a couple of years ago in the lead-in to their 12-4 year. They were rebuilding just like we are now. They filled holes at lb and secondary and at the last minute Khalil Mack was freed up by the Raiders and Gruden traded him to Da Bears for picks

Da Bears fixed what they could in FA and the Draft and then got lucky

Of course they passed up Mahomes at qb in the draft but they did a real nice job on their D

We can do the same. Lets address what we can control in fixining holes with known quality and experience in FA instead of spending all of our capital on a pricey ER or rolling the dice in the draft


Damn fine post.
ER  
WillVAB : 2/27/2020 7:32 pm : link
I’d target Dupree in FA if the price is right. Otherwise I’d look to the draft. If Young somehow makes it to 4 then Yahtzee. If not, I’d look to trade down in the draft and pick up a guy like Chaisson or Epenesa.

If all of that fails then they’ll simply have to improve where they can and wait until next year. The reality is quality ER rarely hit the market and when they do they’re pricey. The draft is where you have to find them for the most part.
With FA and first 3 rounds of the draft, the Giants need 4 solid  
Ivan15 : 2/27/2020 7:39 pm : link
Starters. Free safety, inside LB, ER, Center and OT. They don’t all need to be Pro Bowl quality, but one or two would be nice.

Too obvious?
'Jints can get a top C in McGovern/Karras'  
Torrag : 2/27/2020 7:41 pm : link
Your definition of 'top starter' and mine differ. Both these guys would be functional starters but nowhere near top tier at their position. They'd represent clear upgrades though to what we've fielded at the pivot the last few seasons. Karras to me is a JAG and I wouldn't bother but McGovern is a player.
We can agree  
ChicagoMarty : 2/27/2020 7:56 pm : link
on McGovern.

I'd put him the top half of Centers in the league.

I strongly believe we will be drafting and starting a rookie at OT

I would prefer to have an experienced C so that we would then have a fairly experienced interior OL.

We might then venture a draft choice on a C to develop as opposed to throwing him into the fire from the start
RE: RE: RE: Carl Nassib is a good target in Free agency  
shocktheworld : 2/27/2020 8:29 pm : link
In comment 14821179 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14821167 Rjanyg said:


Quote:



Was coach Chaos at PSU when Carl was there? If so, I can see this happening.

Gross Matos might be a target if he drops to round 2.



I think that will be very unexpected if Gross Matos falls into round two.

But if we could grab first round talent like Matos in round two...I'll definitely take that.



Gross Matos is more of a 4-3 DE.... so pass...K’Lavon Chaisson is the dude I think comes out of this draft and becomes a monster at the next level. He’s a beast and can do it all
biased towards FA in  
Bill2 : 2/27/2020 8:30 pm : link
positions that are hardest to master with the longest learning curves.

So Center and CB FA come to mind. Coverage LB is also not easy to master in the NFl

To me if Conklin completely checks out he is the FA id spend big dollars on. Then add a development OT in rounds 3-6

So 4 FA if we can get them

So based on not yet knowing enough about the potential draftees, Im going to go for trade down and Chaisson in round one. So far, out side of Chase and Odukah, he strikes me as the biggest potential defensive difference maker.

I think the floor on Simmons is too risky

Pick up 1-2 more draft slots and build depth and a core
So  
AcidTest : 2/27/2020 8:30 pm : link
many scenarios are possible, especially if we trade down, but right now I think the most likely is that we cluster draft some edge rushers on day three and sign a reasonably priced veteran in FA.
hey while typing  
Bill2 : 2/27/2020 8:31 pm : link
I came out agreeing with shocktheworld
WillVAB, we've been over it before re Dupree.  
Klaatu : 2/27/2020 8:34 pm : link
You like him, but for me he's buyer beware.

Torraq, Karras may be a JAG, but he's better than Pulley or Pio (which isn't saying much, I admit), and he'd most likely cost a lot less than McGovern (who will probably try to get $8-$10 million a year). As much as I'd like to draft a really good OC prospect, I'd rather not go into the draft desperate to find one who could start from day one.

My main concern, though is with ILB (especially now that Ogletree is gone), and FS (because I figure Bethea will be gone soon, too). An ER would be great, but the cost for the best ones who might be available seems prohibitive to me. I'd lean towards spreading the cash around and shoring up a couple of other spots.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Carl Nassib is a good target in Free agency  
Rjanyg : 2/27/2020 8:50 pm : link
In comment 14821385 shocktheworld said:
Quote:
In comment 14821179 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 14821167 Rjanyg said:


Quote:



Was coach Chaos at PSU when Carl was there? If so, I can see this happening.

Gross Matos might be a target if he drops to round 2.



I think that will be very unexpected if Gross Matos falls into round two.

But if we could grab first round talent like Matos in round two...I'll definitely take that.




Gross Matos is more of a 4-3 DE.... so pass...K’Lavon Chaisson is the dude I think comes out of this draft and becomes a monster at the next level. He’s a beast and can do it all


I agree
RE: Draft one.  
eric2425ny : 2/27/2020 8:53 pm : link
In comment 14821116 tyrik13 said:
Quote:
As I said on another thread why gut your cap on one ER when you can get a few good ones in the draft and keep them cost controlled and groom them to how you want. Our biggest problem has been we’ve on FA acquisitions and they haven’t planned out and it destroys our cap. Time to do something different


I agree. When you look at our track record during the last good run we drafted all of those DE’s. Strahan, Tuck, Osi, Kiwanuka. I would just hate to see us spend a bunch of cash on another disappointment like Vernon. In Vernon’s defense, I think he’s a solid player when healthy. But he was overpaid and couldn’t stay healthy enough to have a big impact.
RE: WillVAB, we've been over it before re Dupree.  
WillVAB : 2/27/2020 8:57 pm : link
In comment 14821393 Klaatu said:
Quote:
You like him, but for me he's buyer beware.

Torraq, Karras may be a JAG, but he's better than Pulley or Pio (which isn't saying much, I admit), and he'd most likely cost a lot less than McGovern (who will probably try to get $8-$10 million a year). As much as I'd like to draft a really good OC prospect, I'd rather not go into the draft desperate to find one who could start from day one.

My main concern, though is with ILB (especially now that Ogletree is gone), and FS (because I figure Bethea will be gone soon, too). An ER would be great, but the cost for the best ones who might be available seems prohibitive to me. I'd lean towards spreading the cash around and shoring up a couple of other spots.


I’m not in love with Dupree but he checks a lot of boxes. Productive last year rushing the passer. Young. Comes from a 3-4. However the price may be insane now that a lot of guys people thought would hit FA won’t.

The worst thing the Giants could do is force the issue. I’ve been pushing OL and ER as much as anyone but they can’t make a mistake out of desperation. It will be too costly in cap dollars or draft capital.

If the opportunity is there in the draft they need to take it. Otherwise focus on the OL. They’ll have the opportunity to fix one or the other — possibly both if a trade down works out.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Carl Nassib is a good target in Free agency  
bw in dc : 2/27/2020 9:14 pm : link
In comment 14821385 shocktheworld said:
Quote:

Gross Matos is more of a 4-3 DE.... so pass...K’Lavon Chaisson is the dude I think comes out of this draft and becomes a monster at the next level. He’s a beast and can do it all


I have no problem with Chaisson at all.

RE: We can agree  
Rjanyg : 2/27/2020 10:09 pm : link
In comment 14821369 ChicagoMarty said:
Quote:
on McGovern.

I'd put him the top half of Centers in the league.

I strongly believe we will be drafting and starting a rookie at OT

I would prefer to have an experienced C so that we would then have a fairly experienced interior OL.

We might then venture a draft choice on a C to develop as opposed to throwing him into the fire from the start


Really want a Center and McGovern is the best available.
No free agents  
armstead98 : 2/27/2020 11:46 pm : link
The Giants are still a couple years away, no point in signing a free agent now. Save the cap room, get comp picks, build through the draft.

Only sign FAs for depth or bargain hunting.
RE: No free agents  
Klaatu : 2/27/2020 11:57 pm : link
In comment 14821514 armstead98 said:
Quote:
The Giants are still a couple years away, no point in signing a free agent now. Save the cap room, get comp picks, build through the draft.

Only sign FAs for depth or bargain hunting.


We need about a half-dozen starters. We're not going to get them all in the draft. We need to sign a few free agents who can start, at least.
You can scheme a pass rush  
Reale01 : 2/28/2020 6:21 am : link
To some extent. You cannot scheme a LT.
You need to sign at least 1 pass rusher in FA  
Rudy5757 : 2/28/2020 9:47 am : link
We simply dont have enough to play right now so we will need at least 1. I would like to go after a top guy. I like Yannick because he is a complete player. he is not the best pass rusher but he is good all around. He is better than Golden so its an upgrade. If we were to make a big splash and get LW and Ngokue we could still sign some middle of the road FAs at other spots.

We are in a tough spot with ER in the draft. 4 seems to high for the guys after Young and rarely do you ever get major production from an edge in the 2nd or beyond. It happens but not often.

I am of the belief that it is easier to build D with FA and harder on O so I tend to like to draft more O and buy more D. We need 2 OL on O at least and possibly a #1 WR unless you think Slayton can take that next step. On D we need 2 ERs, LBs a safety and slot CB. FA needs to fill some starting holes.
I'm all in on Yannick  
Jim in Forest Hills : 2/28/2020 10:43 am : link
in FA. Pay him, Jones and an OC.

DRaft OT #1.
I’d like to see the giants trade back a few spots  
NikkiMac : 2/28/2020 10:58 am : link
And take FS Xavier Mckinny from Alabama then go OT with their next pick in FA sign Golden
One thing we can't do is lose Golden.  
VinegarPeppers : 2/28/2020 3:49 pm : link
If we lose Golden we have zero pass rush. If we lose him but sign an FA or draft an edge rusher it's a push. We're likely no better.

We have to sign Golden and either draft or sign another significant pass rusher. We need 18-22 sacks from our edge guys. It will help oujr DBs and LBs.
RE: You can scheme a pass rush  
VinegarPeppers : 2/28/2020 3:58 pm : link
Nonsense. You can't scheme a pass rush with guys who engage blockers and hand fight them, not without opening up another vulnerability elsewhere.

We need playmakers on defense and the rush makes the secondary better. X-man and Carter are NOT going to get it done.

In comment 14821540 Reale01 said:
Quote:
To some extent. You cannot scheme a LT.
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