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Giants sign Cam Fleming

Strahan91 : 3/18/2020 9:01 pm
per Garafalo
We’re cornering the Stanford market  
Anakim : 3/18/2020 9:02 pm : link
But he’s a good swing tackle
Woah  
aGiantGuy : 3/18/2020 9:02 pm : link
Simmons back in line??
Great depth  
Ben in Tampa : 3/18/2020 9:02 pm : link
Is he going to be asked to start at RT?
One year deal  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 3/18/2020 9:03 pm : link
Per Mike G.
1 year deal  
Vin_Cuccs : 3/18/2020 9:03 pm : link
.
Yes!!!!  
Reb8thVA : 3/18/2020 9:03 pm : link
All our OL woes are solved.
Well there's the swing tackle  
Nine-Tails : 3/18/2020 9:03 pm : link
Round 1 will be Tackle or Simmons at this point, leaning tackle. I hope they can trade back with the Chargers.
Championship...  
Brown_Hornet : 3/18/2020 9:04 pm : link
...yup.
Cheap too  
Saquads26 : 3/18/2020 9:05 pm : link
Cam Fleming's deal maxes out at $4 million -- the same number he was due from the rival #Cowboys on his option, which they declined.
Sorry link to $ from Tom Pelissero  
Saquads26 : 3/18/2020 9:06 pm : link
...
https://twitter.com/tompelissero/status/1240443938957332481?s=21 - ( New Window )
We can thank Colombo for  
FranknWeezer : 3/18/2020 9:06 pm : link
this one
Still need a Center  
Rjanyg : 3/18/2020 9:07 pm : link
I like this signing and was hoping for him a year ago. He played a solid RT in New England before he was in Dallas
are  
mittenedman : 3/18/2020 9:08 pm : link
we collecting bad OL and LBs still?

Swing tackle to compete  
Jay on the Island : 3/18/2020 9:08 pm : link
With a 1st or 2nd round pick.
Little better  
XBRONX : 3/18/2020 9:08 pm : link
than Remmers. Glad one year. He can backup Wills.
Lol  
djm : 3/18/2020 9:08 pm : link
Wtf does this have to do with the draft and Simmons?? Cmon.
RE: are  
Saquads26 : 3/18/2020 9:09 pm : link
In comment 14841787 mittenedman said:
Quote:
we collecting bad OL and LBs still?


Have you ever watched a game before?
RE: Woah  
Reb8thVA : 3/18/2020 9:10 pm : link
In comment 14841766 aGiantGuy said:
Quote:
Simmons back in line??


Doubtful. Its a one year deal. Plus if Gettleman foregoes a chance at a franchise LT he should run out of town.
Can't hurt...  
bw in dc : 3/18/2020 9:10 pm : link
Hell, I'd rather have him play than Solder.

RE: RE: Woah  
Saquads26 : 3/18/2020 9:12 pm : link
In comment 14841793 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
In comment 14841766 aGiantGuy said:


Quote:


Simmons back in line??



Doubtful. Its a one year deal. Plus if Gettleman foregoes a chance at a franchise LT he should run out of town.


I wouldn’t touch any of the Tackles in this draft at #4
Nice signing.  
Big Blue '56 : 3/18/2020 9:12 pm : link
.
.  
MOOPS : 3/18/2020 9:12 pm : link


"I'll take free agents I never heard of for $500 Alex."
RE: Woah  
Nine-Tails : 3/18/2020 9:13 pm : link
In comment 14841766 aGiantGuy said:
Quote:
Simmons back in line??


Both Simmons and OT are the likely choices at 4. We still lack speed at linebacker. And our tackle situation speaks for it self. Even if we signed Conklin, an OT would still be in play cause Solder is gone after this year most likely.
RE: Championship...  
lecky : 3/18/2020 9:14 pm : link
In comment 14841777 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...yup.


Original
RE: .  
Saquads26 : 3/18/2020 9:14 pm : link
In comment 14841799 MOOPS said:
Quote:


"I'll take free agents I never heard of for $500 Alex."


You clearly didn’t watch many games last year. We played against him twice. He only gave up 2 sacks all year.
RE: RE: .  
MOOPS : 3/18/2020 9:22 pm : link
In comment 14841802 Saquads26 said:
Quote:
In comment 14841799 MOOPS said:


Quote:




"I'll take free agents I never heard of for $500 Alex."



You clearly didn’t watch many games last year. We played against him twice. He only gave up 2 sacks all year.


1. He played exactly 3 snaps against us in exactly one game in 2019.
2. 12/19.
3. Google Humor.
Two sacks  
XBRONX : 3/18/2020 9:24 pm : link
in three games. Not great.
Fleming stinks  
ChicagoMarty : 3/18/2020 9:26 pm : link
He is Bobby Hart bad!
RE: We can thank Colombo for  
FranknWeezer : 3/18/2020 9:27 pm : link
In comment 14841782 FranknWeezer said:
Quote:
this one

In fairness, I should also mention Garrett and Judge, from his time in NE.
RE: RE: Woah  
section125 : 3/18/2020 9:29 pm : link
In comment 14841793 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
In comment 14841766 aGiantGuy said:


Quote:


Simmons back in line??



Doubtful. Its a one year deal. Plus if Gettleman foregoes a chance at a franchise LT he should run out of town.


If you want a tackle....do they need one(or two) yes. They also need a speed linebacker, badly. If they stay at #4 Simmons is definitely in play.

I am leaning toward a trade back for an extra #2 and then one of the tackles at 6, 7 or 9..and a C with the extra #2.
RE: Fleming stinks  
GFAN52 : 3/18/2020 9:30 pm : link
In comment 14841822 ChicagoMarty said:
Quote:
He is Bobby Hart bad!


No one could be that bad.
Back to Dumpster Diving OL  
WillVAB : 3/18/2020 9:36 pm : link
Yay
He's  
AcidTest : 3/18/2020 9:36 pm : link
a one year stop gap like Remmers.
Fleming  
ChicagoMarty : 3/18/2020 9:37 pm : link
is worse
RE: RE: RE: Woah  
Jay on the Island : 3/18/2020 9:39 pm : link
In comment 14841826 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14841793 Reb8thVA said:


Quote:


In comment 14841766 aGiantGuy said:


Quote:


Simmons back in line??



Doubtful. Its a one year deal. Plus if Gettleman foregoes a chance at a franchise LT he should run out of town.



If you want a tackle....do they need one(or two) yes. They also need a speed linebacker, badly. If they stay at #4 Simmons is definitely in play.

I am leaning toward a trade back for an extra #2 and then one of the tackles at 6, 7 or 9..and a C with the extra #2.

That’s my plan as well. Wirfs, Thomas,Wills, or Becton in round 1 then ER Zack Baun and C Cesar Ruiz in round 2. That would be one hell of a start to the draft.
why not just try and bring remmers back  
japanhead : 3/18/2020 9:41 pm : link
at that point? gettleman's plug and chug, musical chairs approach to building an OL has been a failure.
Assuming the plan is for him to be the swing tackle  
Breeze_94 : 3/18/2020 9:41 pm : link
if thats the case, I really like the signing. Has a ton of experience and can step in if needed. Considering the lack of quality tackle play around the league, Fleming is a very good option as a swing guy.

Fleming, Gates, Pulley would be nice depth for the OL.

Wirfs/Wills in R1, Biadasz/Hennessy with pick 98 or 105.
He’s terrible.  
The_Boss : 3/18/2020 9:41 pm : link
This is an awful signing. He might be a downgrade from Remmers.
I am encourage, because Bobby Hart is the best.RT  
George from PA : 3/18/2020 9:42 pm : link
Yes.

I can not say for fact....as i do not know enough....but feel he is better then Remmers.

Another FA....that was driven by the positional coach.

But I sure hope, we got the right coaches....because is the definition of insanity....doing the same thing and expecting different results
Don’t think Giants are done in Free Agency  
Simms11 : 3/18/2020 9:42 pm : link
.
Who said he's going to start?  
Anakim : 3/18/2020 9:44 pm : link
I hope he doesn't start. He should be the swing OT. The first OT off the bench.


We still need a starting OT...
RE: He’s terrible.  
The_Boss : 3/18/2020 9:45 pm : link
In comment 14841843 The_Boss said:
Quote:
This is an awful signing. He might be a downgrade from Remmers.


Fleming PFF 59.4
Remmers PFF: 64.3

The best place he can be this year  
The_Boss : 3/18/2020 9:48 pm : link
Is on the sideline. You don’t want him playing a lot.
According to this forum…  
VinegarPeppers : 3/18/2020 9:51 pm : link
According to this forum… every signing has sucked. These are the scars from “17 years of lousy football” plus another seven during the more recent downturn.
RE: Don’t think Giants are done in Free Agency  
VinegarPeppers : 3/18/2020 9:53 pm : link
In comment 14841845 Simms11 said:
Quote:
.


I think they are. I think they came in wanting to sign a lot of players to build a foundation that could win 8 games with a decent draftRather than have all the money gobbled up by one or two stars.
2019 Sacks Allowed and % of Offensive Snaps Played  
shyster : 3/18/2020 9:57 pm : link
Cameron Fleming 2 SA/22.9%
Bobby Hart 4 SA/98.9$
Mike Remmers 5 SA/81.5%
Nate Solder 12 SA/94.6%

Sacks allowed are from Washington Post (linked)

Snap count %s from Football Outsiders


wapo - ( New Window )
It's only a bad signing if he is penciled in as the starter  
Anakim : 3/18/2020 10:00 pm : link
He provides depth at both tackle spots. That's what you want in a swing tackle.
Why  
AcidTest : 3/18/2020 10:00 pm : link
not just stay with Gates as the swing tackle?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Woah  
Rjanyg : 3/18/2020 10:07 pm : link
In comment 14841839 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14841826 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14841793 Reb8thVA said:


Quote:


In comment 14841766 aGiantGuy said:


Quote:


Simmons back in line??



Doubtful. Its a one year deal. Plus if Gettleman foregoes a chance at a franchise LT he should run out of town.



If you want a tackle....do they need one(or two) yes. They also need a speed linebacker, badly. If they stay at #4 Simmons is definitely in play.

I am leaning toward a trade back for an extra #2 and then one of the tackles at 6, 7 or 9..and a C with the extra #2.


That’s my plan as well. Wirfs, Thomas,Wills, or Becton in round 1 then ER Zack Baun and C Cesar Ruiz in round 2. That would be one hell of a start to the draft.


If we pass on Simmons ( and we might ) I’ll be sad because his is a freak football player. But trading back and getting an early 2nd might allow a draft of Wills, Baun, Ruiz and that would be outstanding.
If he's going to be a backup, ok  
Greg from LI : 3/18/2020 10:08 pm : link
If they signed him with the intention of starting him.....woof.
Judge is not penciling anyone in as starters  
George from PA : 3/18/2020 10:10 pm : link
Everyone must earn their spots
RE: Judge is not penciling anyone in as starters  
Simms11 : 3/18/2020 10:12 pm : link
In comment 14841891 George from PA said:
Quote:
Everyone must earn their spots


If JJ is true to his word, Fleming will compete at RT and if he loses out, will most likely end up at Swing Tackle.
RE: Judge is not penciling anyone in as starters  
Reb8thVA : 3/18/2020 10:20 pm : link
In comment 14841891 George from PA said:
Quote:
Everyone must earn their spots


Yeah but if you are choosing between Alpo and Mighty Dog it doesn’t matter because is all dog food.
Garrett  
Marty866b : 3/18/2020 10:20 pm : link
I'd assume he wanted to bring Fleming aboard so I'll give Gettleman the benefit of the doubt because this is another crappy o-lineman that he has signed. Gettleman has a history of this.
Logic says he's the swing tackle  
JonC : 3/18/2020 10:34 pm : link
and now we hope they get a starter.
I'd have preferred Daryl Williams upside but Fleming is a fine signing  
Eric on Li : 3/18/2020 10:34 pm : link
he's similar to Remmers with experience with Garrett and the Pats. A logical and solid 3rd tackle. Should not be a starter though.

I expect they will give Gates a shot at the job and also draft both a tackle and a center at some point.
If he is the swing tackle  
Jay on the Island : 3/18/2020 10:45 pm : link
Which i am convinced he will be, the Giants will be deep there with Fleming and Gates backing up Solder and a likely 1st or 2nd round pick.
at least Fleming’s back is intact or at least no one is saying it’s a  
plato : 3/18/2020 10:46 pm : link
problem. So Fleming is probably more reliable than Remmers. Talent wise I can’t tell but I think Colombo, Garret, and Judge have a better clue than most screaming on this thread. So it’s a plus in my book. But we have a very very long way to go to respectability.
Simmons and Okudah are worth the #4 or trade back.  
TMS : 3/18/2020 10:52 pm : link
All the OL are not worth a pick that high period.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Woah  
Jay in Toronto : 3/18/2020 10:53 pm : link
In comment 14841839 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14841826 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14841793 Reb8thVA said:


Quote:


In comment 14841766 aGiantGuy said:


Quote:


Simmons back in line??


That’s my plan as well. Wirfs, Thomas,Wills, or Becton in round 1 then ER Zack Baun and C Cesar Ruiz in round 2. That would be one hell of a start to the draft.


Don't think Ruiz will make to us in Round 2
nice 1 year depth signing  
Rory : 3/18/2020 11:00 pm : link
for a young healthy player who has a connection to our current oline coach.

He's not an all pro or even an accomplished starter but those guys are never available so not sure what some of you expect.

Not sure what's not to like, so basically quit whining and shut up
This allows us to go 1 of 2 ways in the draft  
BigBlueNH : 3/18/2020 11:01 pm : link
Still think the Giants preference, and most likely scenario, is trade down and take an OT with 1st pick. But if we don't get a good trade down offer and Simmons is still there (which he should be cause with teams at 5, 7 and 9 all needing QBs, I can't imagine no one moves up into top 4), then we could elect to take Simmons and hope an OT we like is available in Rd. 2.
RE: If he is the swing tackle  
Eric on Li : 3/18/2020 11:05 pm : link
In comment 14841923 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
Which i am convinced he will be, the Giants will be deep there with Fleming and Gates backing up Solder and a likely 1st or 2nd round pick.


Not going out on any limb or anything, but I would predict they take 1 OL in the first 2 picks and give Gates first crack at the other open starting position, with Flemming and Pulley as the 2 main veteran depth guys. And also likely a few extra developmental OL in day 3.
RE: If he is the swing tackle  
LBH15 : 3/18/2020 11:08 pm : link
In comment 14841923 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
Which i am convinced he will be, the Giants will be deep there with Fleming and Gates backing up Solder and a likely 1st or 2nd round pick.


Jay, come on...deep?

NYG badly need two Tackles from this draft. One to start at Right in 2020, and one to start in 2021 when we shed Solder (if not sooner).

Pray to the football gods that Gettleman sees it the same way and that there are OTs worth taking when they call our team to the podium.

This Oline fatal flaw problem needs to end this year.
RE: RE: If he is the swing tackle  
Jay on the Island : 3/18/2020 11:16 pm : link
In comment 14841947 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14841923 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


Which i am convinced he will be, the Giants will be deep there with Fleming and Gates backing up Solder and a likely 1st or 2nd round pick.



Not going out on any limb or anything, but I would predict they take 1 OL in the first 2 picks and give Gates first crack at the other open starting position, with Flemming and Pulley as the 2 main veteran depth guys. And also likely a few extra developmental OL in day 3.

Eric, I would be shocked if the Giants don’t take an OT in the first two rounds. If it was up to me I would trade down to 6,7, or 9, acquiring an extra 2nd at minimum. Then take the top OT on the board. Then with one of the 2nd round picks grab Cesar Ruiz if he is there. Then in round 3 or 4 select a developmental OT such as Matt Peart, Ben Bartch, Hakeem Adeniji, etc.
yeah we're drafting an OT with our 1st rounder  
Torrag : 3/18/2020 11:23 pm : link
Whether at #4 or after a trade down remains to be seen. After the way free agency has played out it's a done deal.
RE: yeah we're drafting an OT with our 1st rounder  
The_Boss : 3/18/2020 11:31 pm : link
In comment 14841970 Torrag said:
Quote:
Whether at #4 or after a trade down remains to be seen. After the way free agency has played out it's a done deal.


I think you’re right.
RE: RE: RE: If he is the swing tackle  
Eric on Li : 3/18/2020 11:39 pm : link
In comment 14841965 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14841947 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 14841923 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


Which i am convinced he will be, the Giants will be deep there with Fleming and Gates backing up Solder and a likely 1st or 2nd round pick.



Not going out on any limb or anything, but I would predict they take 1 OL in the first 2 picks and give Gates first crack at the other open starting position, with Flemming and Pulley as the 2 main veteran depth guys. And also likely a few extra developmental OL in day 3.


Eric, I would be shocked if the Giants don’t take an OT in the first two rounds. If it was up to me I would trade down to 6,7, or 9, acquiring an extra 2nd at minimum. Then take the top OT on the board. Then with one of the 2nd round picks grab Cesar Ruiz if he is there. Then in round 3 or 4 select a developmental OT such as Matt Peart, Ben Bartch, Hakeem Adeniji, etc.


I wouldn't be surprised if they do what you described but I also wouldn't be surprised if they go D in round 1 bc Okudah or Simmons is just too good to pass up, C in round 2, and just take an OT in rd 3 or 4 like Prince/Niang/Peart/Bartch. They'd have to be confident in Gates to do that, but I don't think that's out of the question.

NE/Belichek (Judge) and Gettleman have shown histories of success finding OL in the 3rd/4th rounds. Judge is the unknown though because if he wants to win in the trenches badly I can't imagine it would be too hard to convince Gettleman to draft someone like Wirfs or Becton. Or Wills/Thomas with all the Bama/SEC intel they have on the coaching staff.

It also wouldn't shock me if they move down in round 1 to get an extra pick in the top 75, which would allow them to make 2 OL picks in the top 75 and potentially get a highly ranked defensive player too.
good signing as a back up BUT  
Rick in Dallas : 3/19/2020 12:45 am : link
Giants need to be all in about finally fixing this OL through the draft in rounds 1 and 2. Get the RT ( I prefer Wills) at number 4 and get your starting center in the second round (hopefully Ruiz is available) at number 36.
I am sick and tired of their FA bandaid approach.
It hasn't worked in the past and won't work in the future.
Get it done in April in the draft.Fix the freaking OL.
Fix the OL yes, but also need to fix defense - need to do both  
Eric on Li : 3/19/2020 12:52 am : link
so yes, if they feel really strongly about one of the OT's by all means.

But if they feel strongly about 1 of the defensive guys it would be foolish to pass just to grab an OL.

There will be some really good OL available in round 2. Bob McGinn had 9 OL in his initial top 50 and 8 of them were OT (+Ruiz).
Is there anything more important than protecting Daniel Jones?  
Klaatu : 3/19/2020 5:00 am : link
If your answer is no, then you take your highest-graded OL at your earliest opportunity. You don't hesitate, you don't try to get cute, you don't pass him up hoping to get someone else who might be available later on, you take the guy whom you feel is best equipped to protect your QB when you're guaranteed to get him.

And then you double-down on OL because it's that important, and in this draft it's that deep. You need two OT's, one plug-and-play, one developmental. You need a Center you can develop - maybe not an immediate starter, but a good prospect. Enough with the UDFA's. Get serious about the position.

Don't fuck this up, Dave.
Fleming is  
Allen in CNJ : 3/19/2020 6:21 am : link
versatile. I'm pretty sure he was drafted as a guard or center out of FSU when he went to cleveland. I'm also fairly certain he can play all 5 O-Line positions. His production? Not that great as he has been a liability in protection and the run game. Good depth signing.
You  
ripdumaine : 3/19/2020 6:27 am : link
Are thinking about Cam Erving, who went to FSU. Flemming went to Stanford
Guys, relax.  
Tuckrule : 3/19/2020 6:39 am : link
We are drafting our starting tackle in the 1st round. Flemming, who isn’t great, is the backup tackle who’s there to compete. He knows garrets system and worked with Colombo. He isn’t coming here to start. Remmers is the better player but they probably saw his back as an issue and not sure remmers would have taken the same money flemming took. Well draft wills and have gates and and in a worse case scenario we’ll see flemming play.
He’s depth, a swing guy.  
Big Blue '56 : 3/19/2020 6:59 am : link
Nothing more. Sheesh. I like it.
RE: He’s depth, a swing guy.  
Tuckrule : 3/19/2020 7:02 am : link
In comment 14842044 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Nothing more. Sheesh. I like it.


+1. Can’t go wrong with depth. If judge came out and said he’s our starting right tackle then the negativity on this thread would make sense.
RE: Fix the OL yes, but also need to fix defense - need to do both  
Reb8thVA : 3/19/2020 7:05 am : link
In comment 14842006 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
so yes, if they feel really strongly about one of the OT's by all means.

But if they feel strongly about 1 of the defensive guys it would be foolish to pass just to grab an OL.

There will be some really good OL available in round 2. Bob McGinn had 9 OL in his initial top 50 and 8 of them were OT (+Ruiz).


. There is a noticeable lack of quality OL talent in the NFL. For whatever reason the college ranks are not producing offensive linemen like they used to and once teams find those guys they don’t let them go in free agency. Maybe just maybe we should draft some. Here we have a chance to grab your cornerstone LT for the next 10-12 years. There will be a noticeable drop in quality in the second round and you still need a Center. Maybe you throw cation to the wind if our OL wasn’t consistently bad for the last seven years but yours spent the second pick in the draft on Barkley and the number six pick on Jones. Give them the blockers they need to succeed. Do the right thing Dave. Your job depends on it.
RE: Guys, relax.  
mittenedman : 3/19/2020 7:23 am : link
In comment 14842039 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
We are drafting our starting tackle in the 1st round. Flemming, who isn’t great, is the backup tackle who’s there to compete. He knows garrets system and worked with Colombo. He isn’t coming here to start. Remmers is the better player but they probably saw his back as an issue and not sure remmers would have taken the same money flemming took. Well draft wills and have gates and and in a worse case scenario we’ll see flemming play.


Yea sure, you can beat the relax drum all you want. The Giants seem like they're continuing to collect the worst players in the league. Fleming is a terrible player, not much better than Flowers at T. Solder stinks. Remmers gone. Gates? Giants pretty much have nothing at T and now we are just supposed to assume a Jonathan Ogden-type is saving us in the draft? Look at the top 10 busts at T and it may not be a foregone conclusion.

The Giants aren't going to be good until they decide to start bringing in good football players.
He's not getting paid starter money  
Heisenberg : 3/19/2020 7:29 am : link
so he's probably not the plan as a starter. Folks need to relax until we see what we have when FA is over and we finish the draft.
RE: RE: Guys, relax.  
OdellLovesOBJ : 3/19/2020 7:39 am : link
In comment 14842056 mittenedman said:
Quote:
In comment 14842039 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


We are drafting our starting tackle in the 1st round. Flemming, who isn’t great, is the backup tackle who’s there to compete. He knows garrets system and worked with Colombo. He isn’t coming here to start. Remmers is the better player but they probably saw his back as an issue and not sure remmers would have taken the same money flemming took. Well draft wills and have gates and and in a worse case scenario we’ll see flemming play.



Yea sure, you can beat the relax drum all you want. The Giants seem like they're continuing to collect the worst players in the league. Fleming is a terrible player, not much better than Flowers at T. Solder stinks. Remmers gone. Gates? Giants pretty much have nothing at T and now we are just supposed to assume a Jonathan Ogden-type is saving us in the draft? Look at the top 10 busts at T and it may not be a foregone conclusion.

The Giants aren't going to be good until they decide to start bringing in good football players.
.
Well said. There's not a franchise tackle in the draft. There are two franchise defensive players so we have to hope we grab Simmons or Young and allow for good scouting to help bring value in rounds 2 through 7. The Giants for the last decade have had more "questions than answers" when it comes to talent.
RE: Why  
DavidinBMNY : 3/19/2020 7:49 am : link
In comment 14841873 AcidTest said:
Quote:
not just stay with Gates as the swing tackle?
Gates is probably a starter now. He's also probably ready for it. Where he starts is the question and depends on the rest of FA and the draft. I would love to see Beckton, Hernandez, Gates, Zeitler, Solder. Then plug in that FA TE next to Becton and just go maul som,e people.
What makes Young and Simmons franchise defensive players  
LBH15 : 3/19/2020 8:01 am : link
and the Tackles not franchise-OTs?

Since we haven't had a good Tackle in it seems like forever, doesn't that qualify enough?

It's not drafting out of need if the team really needs basically everything other than QB/RB.
I would prefer a healthy Remmers but I don’t think that was an option.  
Ivan15 : 3/19/2020 8:03 am : link
This is okay to fill a hole and gives a little flexibility for the draft. Worst case scenario is that only 1 QB is picked in the first 3 spots and the Giants can pick from Simmons or Odukah, the best OT on the board, or a trade down with the same player options.
Probably mentioned  
5BowlsSoon : 3/19/2020 8:05 am : link
But as Dallas’ backup swing tackle, he played 258 offensive snaps, had 4 penalties, and allowed two sacks. I think we should be happy to have him in the same role...swing man just in case....
Zero shot he’s starting  
The_Boss : 3/19/2020 8:06 am : link
😆

Jordan Raanan (@JordanRaanan)
3/18/20, 9:06 PM
This is a one-year deal for Fleming. He had another strong suitor but Giants potentially give him an opportunity to start at right tackle and reunites him with Jason Garrett and Marc Colombo from Dallas and Joe Judge from New England
RE: RE: Why  
Klaatu : 3/19/2020 8:08 am : link
In comment 14842074 DavidinBMNY said:
Quote:
In comment 14841873 AcidTest said:


Quote:


not just stay with Gates as the swing tackle?

Gates is probably a starter now. He's also probably ready for it. Where he starts is the question and depends on the rest of FA and the draft. I would love to see Beckton, Hernandez, Gates, Zeitler, Solder. Then plug in that FA TE next to Becton and just go maul som,e people.


You've got Gates as a starter, but you don't actually know at which position? Does that sound logical? Then you put him at Center, a position he's never played before, and you put Solder at RT, a position he hasn't played since his rookie year (2011). No offense, but that's a terrible plan.
We don't know what the plans are at Tackle yet  
LBH15 : 3/19/2020 8:10 am : link
but if this regime has any thoughts of going with Solder and Fleming and bypassing a round one Tackle, then you have your reason for the next change-over of GM and Coaches.
There was nothing at OT in FA  
Rudy5757 : 3/19/2020 8:19 am : link
I wasn't expecting us to get any OT out there. They were either old or just not what we need. Gates was as good or better than what was out there. I dont know much about Fleming other than what others have posted. He is young and healthy and just a body to throw out there.

All signs have pointed to OT in the 1st for a while now. Nothing has changed. Its the way to go, there isnt much difference between the OTs and the position players after Young and Okuda and Brown is similar to what we already have. I personally dont want Simmons, I dont think he will have as big an impact in the NFL as others do.
I dont agree with drafting a lineman with the top10 pick  
SteelGiant : 3/19/2020 8:19 am : link
See below, I grabbed a list of the last bunch of Super Bowl bound teams - a line is built with good coaching and good chemistry there are no top 10 picks but they very rarely drafted one in the first round, and they picked at the bottom of the draft.

What you would see is on the defensive side of the ball - a lot of high picks. Just saying

2018
T Trent Brown San Francisco 49ers / 7th / 244th pick / 2015
T Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015

2017
T Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015

2016
T Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
RT Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011

2014
LT Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Dan Connolly
C Bryan Stork New England Patriots / 4th / 105th pick / 2014
RG Ryan Wendell
RT Sebastian Vollmer New England Patriots / 2nd / 58th pick / 2009

2011
LT Matt Light New England Patriots / 2nd / 48th pick / 2001
LG Logan Mankins* New England Patriots / 1st / 32nd pick / 2005
C Dan Connolly
RG Brian Waters*
RT Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011

2004
T Brandon Gorin San Diego Chargers / 7th / 201st pick / 2001
T Matt Light New England Patriots / 2nd / 48th pick / 2001
LG Joe Andruzzi
C Dan Koppen New England Patriots / 5th / 164th pick / 2003
RG Steve Neal
How dare they  
Gman11 : 3/19/2020 8:22 am : link
sign a guy that is not a multi-year all-pro. The nerve!
RE: I dont agree with drafting a lineman with the top10 pick  
LBH15 : 3/19/2020 8:25 am : link
In comment 14842110 SteelGiant said:
Quote:
See below, I grabbed a list of the last bunch of Super Bowl bound teams - a line is built with good coaching and good chemistry there are no top 10 picks but they very rarely drafted one in the first round, and they picked at the bottom of the draft.

What you would see is on the defensive side of the ball - a lot of high picks. Just saying

2018
T Trent Brown San Francisco 49ers / 7th / 244th pick / 2015
T Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015

2017
T Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015

2016
T Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
RT Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011

2014
LT Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Dan Connolly
C Bryan Stork New England Patriots / 4th / 105th pick / 2014
RG Ryan Wendell
RT Sebastian Vollmer New England Patriots / 2nd / 58th pick / 2009

2011
LT Matt Light New England Patriots / 2nd / 48th pick / 2001
LG Logan Mankins* New England Patriots / 1st / 32nd pick / 2005
C Dan Connolly
RG Brian Waters*
RT Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011

2004
T Brandon Gorin San Diego Chargers / 7th / 201st pick / 2001
T Matt Light New England Patriots / 2nd / 48th pick / 2001
LG Joe Andruzzi
C Dan Koppen New England Patriots / 5th / 164th pick / 2003
RG Steve Neal


I don't think this post is going to go like you planned.
I dont think I have plan - but just puting an idea in front of some  
SteelGiant : 3/19/2020 8:33 am : link
I agree our line sucks, but it has sicked for years - the solution is not always the players.
No different than any other type of work - when there is massive turnover and under performance its not always the employees. Sometimes it is management and terrible planning.

We have new coaches now, you need get more out of the players you have on the team and build cohesiveness. Especially with an offensive line, you need big smart players and great coaching. I bet I could go through a bunch of other successful teams and find the same thing.
Do people honestly believe  
Mike from Ohio : 3/19/2020 8:42 am : link
that signing a guy in free agency to a one year, $4M contract is somehow a tell about the pick at #4? Seriously?
I guess my belief is  
SteelGiant : 3/19/2020 8:44 am : link
the chances of getting a top 10 o-lineman that is successful player in the NFL has a lot closer to a chance of one you grab in later round - compared to a 10 ten linebacker or corner compared to ones you get in later rounds.

There busts in every position, and there Tom Brady stories in others as well - Im just talking it view of averages - it is wiser to take the Defensive player with a 10 ten than a lineman because you have a better of bargain drafting a lineman with good coaching.

Maybe another way I look at it is - you need your high pick to be a contributor is some way for a significant amount of time. You pick a defensive guy that turns out not be the stud you are hoping for does not mean they can not help you in situational downs and schemes. You miss on an o-lineman -what else can they do.
RE: Do people honestly believe  
SteelGiant : 3/19/2020 8:46 am : link
In comment 14842139 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
that signing a guy in free agency to a one year, $4M contract is somehow a tell about the pick at #4? Seriously?


Probably - LOL - not me - I was just commenting because the topic was there.
RE: I guess my belief is  
LBH15 : 3/19/2020 8:48 am : link
In comment 14842142 SteelGiant said:
Quote:
the chances of getting a top 10 o-lineman that is successful player in the NFL has a lot closer to a chance of one you grab in later round - compared to a 10 ten linebacker or corner compared to ones you get in later rounds.

There busts in every position, and there Tom Brady stories in others as well - Im just talking it view of averages - it is wiser to take the Defensive player with a 10 ten than a lineman because you have a better of bargain drafting a lineman with good coaching.

Maybe another way I look at it is - you need your high pick to be a contributor is some way for a significant amount of time. You pick a defensive guy that turns out not be the stud you are hoping for does not mean they can not help you in situational downs and schemes. You miss on an o-lineman -what else can they do.


If the stats support that then best Giant strategy would be to trade down in rd 1. I don't think it does though based on only looking at New England's Oline drafts thru the years.

And I don't think you should pick anybody in Rd 1, offense or defense, with the mindset that they may not work out so what else can they do. Imv.
Fleming  
Carson53 : 3/19/2020 9:03 am : link
is the new Marshall Newhouse for the Giants.
Although watching Fleming backup Tyron Smith the past couple of years, that wasn't a pretty sight (being kind).
I guess a swing tackle, hopefully he doesn't play much.
I think  
Carson53 : 3/19/2020 9:05 am : link
they are going to draft a tackle at # 4 myself.
JFC the stupidity. All over a backup swing tackle who happens to  
Victor in CT : 3/19/2020 9:11 am : link
be a bright player who has worked with our new HC, OC, and OL coach:
* Back to Dumpster Diving OL
* This is an awful signing. He might be a downgrade from Remmers.
* The Giants seem like they're continuing to collect the worst players in the league.
*

And the winner:
* The Giants aren't going to be good until they decide to start bringing in good football players.

YES GREAT POINT!! Previously they decided to purposely bring in BAD PLAYERS!!! What an idiotic statement.
RE: Probably mentioned  
Rjanyg : 3/19/2020 9:15 am : link
In comment 14842086 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
But as Dallas’ backup swing tackle, he played 258 offensive snaps, had 4 penalties, and allowed two sacks. I think we should be happy to have him in the same role...swing man just in case....


Depth is necessary. He could start at some point if not right away.
RE: JFC the stupidity. All over a backup swing tackle who happens to  
mfsd : 3/19/2020 9:24 am : link
In comment 14842180 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
be a bright player who has worked with our new HC, OC, and OL coach:
* Back to Dumpster Diving OL
* This is an awful signing. He might be a downgrade from Remmers.
* The Giants seem like they're continuing to collect the worst players in the league.
*

And the winner:
* The Giants aren't going to be good until they decide to start bringing in good football players.

YES GREAT POINT!! Previously they decided to purposely bring in BAD PLAYERS!!! What an idiotic statement.


Seriously. Some posters act as if Anthony Munoz in his prime was available for 1 year/$4 million, but we chose to sign Fleming instead.

He's a depth guy. Look around the league, most teams are lucky if they have one decent tackle,

Have to draft well, as we all know, to really build the OL
SteelGiant, I appreciate your effort, but I would point out that...  
Klaatu : 3/19/2020 9:51 am : link
In 2011, the Giants drafted a CB in the 1st round (Prince Amukamara), and passed on Anthony Castonzo.

In 2012, they drafted a RB in the 1st (David Wilson), and passed on Cordy Glenn.

I submit that those two moves led in no small part to reaching for Justin Pugh in 2013, and Ereck Flowers in 2015 out of desperation, two players who were generally believed to be 2nd round talents at best (except, apparently, by Jerry Reese and Marc Ross). Both have ended up as Guards.

In 2016, the Giants drafted Eli Apple in in the 1st round, passing on Laramy Tunsil and Taylor Decker.

In 2017, they drafted Evan Engram, passing on Ryan Ramczyk and Cam Robinson.

In 2018, again out of desperation, they gave a huge contract to Nate Solder.

In 2019, after drafting Daniel Jones at #6, their next two picks were a DT (Lawrence), and a CB (Deandre Baker) after trading up. In the process, they passed on Andre Dillard and Jawaan Taylor. They finally drafted an OT in the 7th round, who's since been waived/injured.

I'd rather not see history repeat itself once again. The Giants will have a chance to draft a legitimate 1st round talent at OT with their 1st round pick this year. In my opinion, they'd be foolish to spend it on any other position.
RE: I dont agree with drafting a lineman with the top10 pick  
V.I.G. : 3/19/2020 10:01 am : link
In comment 14842110 SteelGiant said:
Quote:
See below, I grabbed a list of the last bunch of Super Bowl bound teams
how about this past superbowl?

listen, there is no ONE way. But unless you have the greatest coach of all time, and the greatest QB of all time, having studs on your offensive line works.
RE: RE: are  
Alan in Toledo : 3/19/2020 10:12 am : link
In comment 14841791 Saquads26 said:
Quote:
In comment 14841787 mittenedman said:


Quote:


we collecting bad OL and LBs still?




Have you ever watched a game before?


Nasty, nasty.
RE: SteelGiant, I appreciate your effort, but I would point out that...  
Mike in NY : 3/19/2020 10:13 am : link
In comment 14842234 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In 2011, the Giants drafted a CB in the 1st round (Prince Amukamara), and passed on Anthony Castonzo.

In 2012, they drafted a RB in the 1st (David Wilson), and passed on Cordy Glenn.

I submit that those two moves led in no small part to reaching for Justin Pugh in 2013, and Ereck Flowers in 2015 out of desperation, two players who were generally believed to be 2nd round talents at best (except, apparently, by Jerry Reese and Marc Ross). Both have ended up as Guards.

In 2016, the Giants drafted Eli Apple in in the 1st round, passing on Laramy Tunsil and Taylor Decker.

In 2017, they drafted Evan Engram, passing on Ryan Ramczyk and Cam Robinson.

In 2018, again out of desperation, they gave a huge contract to Nate Solder.

In 2019, after drafting Daniel Jones at #6, their next two picks were a DT (Lawrence), and a CB (Deandre Baker) after trading up. In the process, they passed on Andre Dillard and Jawaan Taylor. They finally drafted an OT in the 7th round, who's since been waived/injured.

I'd rather not see history repeat itself once again. The Giants will have a chance to draft a legitimate 1st round talent at OT with their 1st round pick this year. In my opinion, they'd be foolish to spend it on any other position.


2011 - Amukamara was ranked significantly above Costanzo and nobody expected him to be there. I can't fault the Giants for that move

2012 - I was chomping at the bit for Cordy Glenn so I am not sure I am the most unbiased person

2013 - Considering Kyle Long, who was also thought of as more of a 2nd Rounder, was picked one pick later I think the prognosticators were undervaluing which teams in the latter part of the round would look for OL

2016 - See 2012 but change Glenn to Tunsil who, despite not quite living up to the hype, would have been better than Apple

2017 - I did like Ramczyk at that spot, but I can't say that he was by far the BPA and I could understand why you would want Engram if you were going to a quick strike, WCO style offense. Unfortunately he has constantly battled injuries

2019 - With the flashes we saw from Lawrence, I am not disappointed we took him over Dillard. As far as trading up for Baker, it isn't like Taylor has gone out and dominated. Not to mention he would not have fallen to 37. The real OL that we missed was Jenkins who we could have remained at 37 and solidified C position
Mike, what it shows is a total lack of foresight...  
Klaatu : 3/19/2020 10:23 am : link
On the part of the previous regime, when it was obvious that the O-Line was breaking down. Look at the rest of those drafts. The O-Line was given short shrift for years, relegated mostly to day three picks (with the exceptions of Pugh and Flowers, and Richburg in the 2nd in 2014).

It also shows a complete disregard for positional value, which is something I thought Gettleman would correct, but he seems to show the same disregard. It's no wonder the Giants are in the position they're in today with regard to their O-Line.
RE: Mike, what it shows is a total lack of foresight...  
Mike in NY : 3/19/2020 10:27 am : link
In comment 14842299 Klaatu said:
Quote:
On the part of the previous regime, when it was obvious that the O-Line was breaking down. Look at the rest of those drafts. The O-Line was given short shrift for years, relegated mostly to day three picks (with the exceptions of Pugh and Flowers, and Richburg in the 2nd in 2014).

It also shows a complete disregard for positional value, which is something I thought Gettleman would correct, but he seems to show the same disregard. It's no wonder the Giants are in the position they're in today with regard to their O-Line.


You are complaining that the Giants reached for OL (Pugh, Flowers) and complaining that the Giants picked much higher ranked players over OL (Amukamara). It can't be both ways. I agree, the Giants gave short shrift to the OL but where that is more noticeable is the lack of Day 2 OL picks while overloading on WR and DL (especially DT)
Reese  
AcidTest : 3/19/2020 10:36 am : link
didn't neglect the OL in the draft or FA. He just drafted and signed the wrong players. The one move I won't fault him for is not drafting Tunsil. The Giants had already been burned by too many character risks.
Fleming  
AcidTest : 3/19/2020 10:37 am : link
is just a backup swing tackle on a one year deal. This is what's left in FA. We've already spent a ton of money.
RE: RE: Mike, what it shows is a total lack of foresight...  
Klaatu : 3/19/2020 10:44 am : link
In comment 14842311 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 14842299 Klaatu said:


Quote:


On the part of the previous regime, when it was obvious that the O-Line was breaking down. Look at the rest of those drafts. The O-Line was given short shrift for years, relegated mostly to day three picks (with the exceptions of Pugh and Flowers, and Richburg in the 2nd in 2014).

It also shows a complete disregard for positional value, which is something I thought Gettleman would correct, but he seems to show the same disregard. It's no wonder the Giants are in the position they're in today with regard to their O-Line.



You are complaining that the Giants reached for OL (Pugh, Flowers) and complaining that the Giants picked much higher ranked players over OL (Amukamara). It can't be both ways. I agree, the Giants gave short shrift to the OL but where that is more noticeable is the lack of Day 2 OL picks while overloading on WR and DL (especially DT)


Prince Amukamara and Anthony Castonzo had the same exact grade on NFL.com - 7.5. As I recall, the Giants had shown a lot of interest in Nate Solder, who went two picks earlier. Castonzo should have been their "consolation prize," just as Tunsil or Decker should have been after they missed out on Conklin five years later. When you have the chance to draft top-tier OL talent, you should take it.

Reaches don't happen in a vacuum. They're a product of a lack of foresight leading to desperation. 2011 and 2012 led to 2013 and 2015. Poor drafting also leads to overpaying for free agents. 2016 and 2017 led to Solder (and Omameh, too). One mistake compounded by another.

These mistakes were repeated again in 2019, which, again, is why we're in the position we're in today.
Klaatu & Reb - my pt isn't to neglect OL, it's "don't pass on a bosa"  
Eric on Li : 3/19/2020 10:48 am : link
Klaatu - you asked the question "is there anything more important than protecting Jones?", my answer to that would be that while it's important 1 player doesn't totally eliminate all risk, especially since Jones runs on his own. So yes it's important - and you are 100% right that passing on OL for skill players and underinvesting in that area was the downfall of the organization from 2011 and on. But I'm not advocating passing on OL for Jerry Jeudy or CeeDee Lamb. Only an elite defender because they are perhaps the only thing harder to find than an elite OT.

So my counter hypothetical would be - was there anything more important for the 49ers going from the 2nd pick in the draft to the 2nd to last pick in the draft than adding Nick Bosa with the former?
if you look at it objectively, Reese followed the same pattern as  
Victor in CT : 3/19/2020 10:53 am : link
Accorsi did re the OL. Mid-round picks, an occasional high (1st or 2nd) round pick, and an FA or 2 where needed. But Ernie picked better players. To wit::

Accorsi Reese
High draft: Snee Flowers, Beatty
Mid draft: Diehl Petrus
FA: O'Hara/McKenzie Baas
UDFA: Seubert n/a
Eric on Li  
Klaatu : 3/19/2020 10:58 am : link
The 49ers already had a pretty good offensive line, having drafted Mike Mcglinchey in the 1st round in 2018 to play opposite Joe Staley. Their Guards weren't all that great, and adding Richburg to play Center didn't help much, but it was still in the top half of the league. You can't say that about the Giants.
Ernie found religion on the OL at the end when Coughlin got here  
Eric on Li : 3/19/2020 10:59 am : link
prior to Coughlin I think the only OL pick I can remember that semi-worked out was Petigout? Ron Stone was a good FA signing but under the radar, Glenn Parker/Lomas Brown were 2 hail mary's that happened to work out - along with Mike Rosenthal, Whittle, Seubert, etc.

The moment Coughlin arrived they drafted Snee with the highest OL pick since Petigout, and shortly thereafter added McKenzie + O'Hara. Seubert and Diehl were already here, but the 2 big investments on the right side of the line were key obviously to 2 SB runs.

Reese didn't maintain that level of importance adding talented OL until it was too late.
RE: You  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 3/19/2020 11:02 am : link
In comment 14842037 ripdumaine said:
Quote:
Are thinking about Cam Erving, who went to FSU. Flemming went to Stanford

Sure are acquiring a lot of Stanford guys - likely JJ's Belichekian team building. Has to be better than Syracuse and BC.

Throw in Garrett.

RE: Eric on Li  
Eric on Li : 3/19/2020 11:11 am : link
In comment 14842372 Klaatu said:
Quote:
The 49ers already had a pretty good offensive line, having drafted Mike Mcglinchey in the 1st round in 2018 to play opposite Joe Staley. Their Guards weren't all that great, and adding Richburg to play Center didn't help much, but it was still in the top half of the league. You can't say that about the Giants.


I sort of agree because their OT's are vastly superior, however I don't think overall there's a gap so large we can't have a comparable unit post-draft. Also I'd say LT/OL in general is just as big of a need for them as it is us because Staley is several years older than Solder and has missed games each of the last few years. I believe he'd even been considering retirement recently? So while there may not have been an OT worth the #2 pick last year, they did also pass on Greg Little, Cody Ford, Dalton Risner at #33 for Deebo Samuel.

Looking at the depth of the draft I think it's possible to add an OL at a similar level to McGlinchey (like the guys I mentioned from last year's draft) with our 2nd round pick, and if we do I think our OL will be similar to their's in terms of overall talent. I think our OL last year was a lot closer to middle of the pack than people realize with how poor OL play around the league has become - and adding a solid young player plus improved coaching it could be a strength for the first time in almost a decade even if they go D round 1.

And obviously if value matches need and we do get 1 of the top 4 OT's I think most would take our OL over there's as a unit.
Eric on Li  
Klaatu : 3/19/2020 11:19 am : link
This year, I want two OT's drafted. One plug-and-play (Jedrick Wills is my preference), and one good developmental prospect (take your pick). I also want the Giants to draft a very good C/OG prospect, and if it was up to me, I'd get all three by the end of the 4th round. To me, it's that important (and it's also one reason the trade for Williams pisses me off so much).
RE: Eric on Li  
Eric on Li : 3/19/2020 11:28 am : link
In comment 14842414 Klaatu said:
Quote:
This year, I want two OT's drafted. One plug-and-play (Jedrick Wills is my preference), and one good developmental prospect (take your pick). I also want the Giants to draft a very good C/OG prospect, and if it was up to me, I'd get all three by the end of the 4th round. To me, it's that important (and it's also one reason the trade for Williams pisses me off so much).


I want 2 OL from our 4 picks in the top 106 (plus 1 or 2 developmental picks later).

If you go by average # of players selected, I believe that would net us 2 of the top 20 OL in the class.

Mcginn has 9 OL in his top 50 (8 tackles plus Ruiz) so we'd get 1 of those players in round 1 or 2, and if you wrote out the next crop on most of the rankings you would add another player like Cushenberry, Biadasz, Hennessy, Muti, Hanson, Harris, Lucas Niang, Prince, etc. with the comp pick or early 4th.

I'm also 100% in on a trade down if there's a good offer to pick up extra picks as well, and if we get a 3rd top 50 pick I'd have no issue clustering 2 OL from their top 10.

I just don't want to reach for a non-elite OT in round 1 if there's an elite defender still on the board. I like all 4 of the top OTs, but I'm not sure any is a day 1 impact starter at LT. I'm not sure they aren't either though and if their scouts think 1 of these guys is I'd be fine with that pick.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/19/2020 11:55 am : link
Eric on Li  
Klaatu : 3/19/2020 11:56 am : link
The way I see it, we're going to stick with Solder at LT this year. We need a plug-and-play RT, and in my view that's Wills. I'd like the 2nd OT to be able to replace Solder at LT in 2021, or replace Wills at RT if they feel he can slide over, so that prospect has to be pretty good.

C/OG is a real bone of contention with me. I was hoping the Giants would sign at least a halfway decent placeholder to play OC, but so far that's a no-go. We'll see what happens going forward but the remaining free agent pickings are pretty slim. Honestly, I don't know if there's a rookie who can come in and start right away, but I'd still move OC up a notch on my draft wish list.
RE: Eric on Li  
Eric on Li : 3/19/2020 12:12 pm : link
In comment 14842474 Klaatu said:
Quote:
The way I see it, we're going to stick with Solder at LT this year. We need a plug-and-play RT, and in my view that's Wills. I'd like the 2nd OT to be able to replace Solder at LT in 2021, or replace Wills at RT if they feel he can slide over, so that prospect has to be pretty good.

C/OG is a real bone of contention with me. I was hoping the Giants would sign at least a halfway decent placeholder to play OC, but so far that's a no-go. We'll see what happens going forward but the remaining free agent pickings are pretty slim. Honestly, I don't know if there's a rookie who can come in and start right away, but I'd still move OC up a notch on my draft wish list.


I think Gates is an option for 1 of the 2 open positions. To be clear I'd still draft a player at both to compete, develop, add depth - but Gates did show something last year.

I'm also still hoping they make another addition. Trading for Brandon Linder at center for example would be a great move right now if Jax is selling anything not nailed down.
RE: RE: Eric on Li  
Klaatu : 3/19/2020 12:21 pm : link
In comment 14842507 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14842474 Klaatu said:


Quote:


The way I see it, we're going to stick with Solder at LT this year. We need a plug-and-play RT, and in my view that's Wills. I'd like the 2nd OT to be able to replace Solder at LT in 2021, or replace Wills at RT if they feel he can slide over, so that prospect has to be pretty good.

C/OG is a real bone of contention with me. I was hoping the Giants would sign at least a halfway decent placeholder to play OC, but so far that's a no-go. We'll see what happens going forward but the remaining free agent pickings are pretty slim. Honestly, I don't know if there's a rookie who can come in and start right away, but I'd still move OC up a notch on my draft wish list.



I think Gates is an option for 1 of the 2 open positions. To be clear I'd still draft a player at both to compete, develop, add depth - but Gates did show something last year.

I'm also still hoping they make another addition. Trading for Brandon Linder at center for example would be a great move right now if Jax is selling anything not nailed down.


I'd trade for Linder in a heartbeat if we could get him for a day three pick (or two or three of them, lol).

I've seen a lot of posts advocating moving Gates to Center, but I think that's unwise. He's never played it before, and I think we'd be better off grooming him to replace Zeitler at RG. I like the way he's developed. If the Giants feel he can compete at RT, so be it.
agreed - a player like Linder is a perfect add with day 3 picks  
Eric on Li : 3/19/2020 12:27 pm : link
he's had some injuries but he'd be easily cuttable and good place holder as a young guy develops.

I'd also rather Gates stay at RT, so that'd be another benefit of adding someone like Linder.
RE: ...  
5BowlsSoon : 3/19/2020 1:36 pm : link
In comment 14842472 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:


I’m much more optimistic after watching that 9 minute video of him. It appeared his kryptonite was the fake outside, rush inside move. He got caught on that twice. Mostly everything else he looked strong and able to keep out the DE/Edge rusher.
Based on the Highlights Eric posted,  
Simms11 : 3/19/2020 1:47 pm : link
he looks serviceable, but Dak is also getting rid of the ball quicker. Jones would’ve gotten killed in there. He seems to get pushed back quite a bit, as well. I’m hoping he’s here as a swing tackle only.
Where ar e the Giants getting this money? I apologize if  
Blue21 : 3/19/2020 2:15 pm : link
someone already explained it but I thought the Giants were already down to 18 mil and DG wanted to save 20 for draft and the future etc.
Its all about OL this draft  
LBH15 : 3/19/2020 2:27 pm : link
or we wasted Barkley and some of DJ rookie contracts.
And this regime won't make it  
LBH15 : 3/19/2020 2:29 pm : link
make further.
RE: Its all about OL this draft  
GFAN52 : 3/19/2020 2:38 pm : link
In comment 14842654 LBH15 said:
Quote:
or we wasted Barkley and some of DJ rookie contracts.


Need to come out of this draft with two OT's. One to start at RT, and one to develop as a future starter at LT.
i want no part of beckton  
bluetothegrave : 3/19/2020 2:47 pm : link
He has lots of flaws to his game. I don't care how good of an athlete he is, how good is, or how much can his technique improve. Let him run a 4.6 next time. Who gives a shit hes an offensive lineman..Now is that juicy? of course, imagine him pulling but if he can't effectively stop a bull rush, a stunt, a speed rush, how does he handle guys who have sick bend or great hands. Hes 4th in my book out of the 4. Not saying I wouldn't take him with our 2nd rounder or if I had say 18th pick in the draft but not anywhere near 4th. BTW his 23 reps of 225 not impressive for a tackle. Not awful but not super impressive, guy had all year to prepare for it, I was expecting 28 or 29 so as great as his combine was the bench was a tad light for an elite lineman.


I want simmons in the worst way. I think if we get simmons and let him play like he did in college....we can be really good on d. We are deep on the d line, we would be dangerous now at LB, love our young safeties and with bradbury I love our corners.

Rd 2 and Rd 3 we need best o lineman available.
i want no part of beckton  
bluetothegrave : 3/19/2020 2:51 pm : link
He has lots of flaws to his game. I don't care how good of an athlete he is, how good on an actual offensive lineamn is he?

Can his technique improve drastically? Let him run a 4.6 next time since when is the 40 yard dash a test of how well the guy can block demarcus lawrence? ..Now is that combine juicy? of course, imagine him pulling but if he can't effectively stop a bull rush, a stunt, a speed rush, how does he handle guys who have sick bend? or great hands. Hes 4th in my book out of the 4. Not saying I wouldn't take him with our 2nd rounder or if I had say 18th pick in the draft but not anywhere near 4th. BTW his 23 reps of 225 not impressive for a tackle. Not awful but not super impressive, guy had all year to prepare for it, I was expecting 28 or 29 so as great as his combine was the bench was a tad light for an elite lineman.


I want simmons in the worst way. I think if we get simmons and let him play like he did in college....we can be really good on d. What a change that would be We are deep on the d line and should be able to be middle of the pack rushing the passer and tops in run d, we would be dangerous now at LB, love our young safeties and with bradbury I love our corners. I think baker, love, beal, ballentine and peppers all show marked improvement. After all your supposed to improve at a young age and now with better coaching I expect a lot from that crew.

Rd 2 and Rd 3 we need best o lineman available and one of them has to be a center.
Draft Wills #4 or trade down for other OT  
Torrag : 3/19/2020 2:53 pm : link
Draft Ruiz/Cushenberry #36 to start at OC.

Fleming is a backup/swing tackle. Start Wills at LT let the best of Solder/Gates/Fleming play RT.

Then draft another OT in 2021.

Haven't we seen enough of this crap? Fix the O-line once and for all.
GFAN52, Torrag  
LBH15 : 3/19/2020 3:08 pm : link
yep
RE: Draft Wills #4 or trade down for other OT  
ryanmkeane : 3/19/2020 4:03 pm : link
In comment 14842698 Torrag said:
Quote:
Draft Ruiz/Cushenberry #36 to start at OC.

Fleming is a backup/swing tackle. Start Wills at LT let the best of Solder/Gates/Fleming play RT.

Then draft another OT in 2021.

You know we have to play defense...?
RE: I dont agree with drafting a lineman with the top10 pick  
TMS : 3/19/2020 4:08 pm : link
In comment 14842110 SteelGiant said:
Quote:
See below, I grabbed a list of the last bunch of Super Bowl bound teams - a line is built with good coaching and good chemistry there are no top 10 picks but they very rarely drafted one in the first round, and they picked at the bottom of the draft.

What you would see is on the defensive side of the ball - a lot of high picks. Just saying

2018
T Trent Brown San Francisco 49ers / 7th / 244th pick / 2015
T Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015

2017
T Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015

2016
T Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
RT Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011

2014
LT Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Dan Connolly
C Bryan Stork New England Patriots / 4th / 105th pick / 2014
RG Ryan Wendell
RT Sebastian Vollmer New England Patriots / 2nd / 58th pick / 2009

2011
LT Matt Light New England Patriots / 2nd / 48th pick / 2001
LG Logan Mankins* New England Patriots / 1st / 32nd pick / 2005
C Dan Connolly
RG Brian Waters*
RT Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011

2004
T Brandon Gorin San Diego Chargers / 7th / 201st pick / 2001
T Matt Light New England Patriots / 2nd / 48th pick / 2001
LG Joe Andruzzi
C Dan Koppen New England Patriots / 5th / 164th pick / 2003
RG Steve Neal
. Great post few top LT are picked successfully in the top ten of the draft. This where you get Defense or QBS. Thing DG sees it the same way.
RE: RE: I dont agree with drafting a lineman with the top10 pick  
Klaatu : 3/19/2020 4:23 pm : link
In comment 14842853 TMS said:
Quote:

. Great post few top LT are picked successfully in the top ten of the draft. This where you get Defense or QBS. Thing DG sees it the same way.


Which is why the Giants are in the position they're in today vis a vis their offensive line as well as their defense.

Oh, and do you 'thing' he sees it the same way with RB's?
RE: RE: I dont agree with drafting a lineman with the top10 pick  
Mike in NY : 3/19/2020 4:27 pm : link
In comment 14842853 TMS said:
Quote:
In comment 14842110 SteelGiant said:


Quote:


See below, I grabbed a list of the last bunch of Super Bowl bound teams - a line is built with good coaching and good chemistry there are no top 10 picks but they very rarely drafted one in the first round, and they picked at the bottom of the draft.

What you would see is on the defensive side of the ball - a lot of high picks. Just saying

2018
T Trent Brown San Francisco 49ers / 7th / 244th pick / 2015
T Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015

2017
T Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015

2016
T Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
RT Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011

2014
LT Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Dan Connolly
C Bryan Stork New England Patriots / 4th / 105th pick / 2014
RG Ryan Wendell
RT Sebastian Vollmer New England Patriots / 2nd / 58th pick / 2009

2011
LT Matt Light New England Patriots / 2nd / 48th pick / 2001
LG Logan Mankins* New England Patriots / 1st / 32nd pick / 2005
C Dan Connolly
RG Brian Waters*
RT Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011

2004
T Brandon Gorin San Diego Chargers / 7th / 201st pick / 2001
T Matt Light New England Patriots / 2nd / 48th pick / 2001
LG Joe Andruzzi
C Dan Koppen New England Patriots / 5th / 164th pick / 2003
RG Steve Neal

. Great post few top LT are picked successfully in the top ten of the draft. This where you get Defense or QBS. Thing DG sees it the same way.


Most teams picking in the Top 10 are far away from actually competing. The same can be said for just about any position, especially early in the career of a player except possibly QB. The issue with LT is that if you tried to put them into a 5 tier bell curve (elite, above average, average, below average, OMGWTF) you are not going to see a lot of difference between above average and high end of average group. Where it is noticeable is if you get into the below average and OMGWTF groups. Even the best OT in this draft I don't see anyone who I would feel comfortable reaching a ceiling higher than above average. If we trade down from #4 to the latter part of the top 12 then above average at a position I can live with. At #4 it is a different issue.
Seems  
Toth029 : 3/19/2020 5:22 pm : link
He did ok at RT for the Pats.
The issue with LT (and RT for that matter) isn't that the Giants  
LBH15 : 3/19/2020 5:30 pm : link
can only draft someone who is just "above average".

The issue is that we don't have any Tackles that are even worthy of starting NFL games.

You think going for one in Rd 3 is going to solve for that...good luck.

How long do you want this to go on?
Ryan: "You know we have to play defense...?"  
Torrag : 3/19/2020 5:43 pm : link
O-Line is the priority when we've just invested the #6 and #2 overall picks on a young QB and RB.

That's what makes sense for our team right now.

I'm ok with trading down as far as #9 with Jax if you want to add some picks and still get an OT and OC.

So you solve the OL then go defense with as many picks as you want. Maybe slip in a 4th round WR to cash in on the ridiculous class this year. Look for a Kevin Boss type TE on day 3. Package a couple of those 7th rounders to move around the back end of the board on Day 3 to find one.

That's the smart plan.
Agree with Torrag  
ChicagoMarty : 3/19/2020 6:03 pm : link
Lets fix the OL once and for all in the Draft.

Garrett benefitted from JJ's investment in the OL a few years ago and controlled the clock with Zeke running behind a talented OL

DG is not beyond cluster drafting as he demonstrated last year with DBs

Trade down with #4 and pick up as many picks as possible

And let our drafts from 1988 & 1989 be our guide. In fact lets compress them since we will have additional picks in the top rounds

1988 Eric Moore T with our first pick then Jumbo Elliot T with our second
1989 Brian Williams C with our first pick and then Bob Kratch G with our second which was actually in the third round

This year's draft could look a little like this:
Tradedown #4 to later in the first round and pick up additional picks
Our first pick would be one of Wills/Wirfs/Becton/Thomas - all OTs
Our second pick would be one of Ruiz/Biadasz/Cushenberry/Hennessy C
Our third pick would be one of Ezra Cleveland/Prince Tega Wanogho/ Lucas Niang/Saahdiq Charles - all developmental OTs
Our fourth pick Logan Stenberg G

Hopefully all of the above picks could be made in the first three rounds leaving us with an additional six picks to garner a wr, rb, te, lb and s

Our OL would be refashioned for years thereby protecting our qb and supporting our HOF rb

I personally think this is the way to go particularly if we go with Wanogho!

Can never have too many Prince's on the team...

Something to think about
If they screw it up this year...  
Klaatu : 3/19/2020 6:35 pm : link
They might as well trade Barkley and look ahead to the 2023 QB class.
RE: If they screw it up this year...  
LBH15 : 3/19/2020 8:15 pm : link
In comment 14843046 Klaatu said:
Quote:
They might as well trade Barkley and look ahead to the 2023 QB class.


Yep and find another GM
Agree with the sentiments here gents  
cosmicj : 3/20/2020 4:27 am : link
Good thread discussion.
The more I think about it  
5BowlsSoon : 3/20/2020 8:22 am : link
The more I like the idea of trading down and making my first two draft picks OL studs. I too want to have a Dallas Cowboys OL for both Jones and Barkley’s sake. Let’s face it, those two guys are our franchise, so shouldn’t we put protecting themselves as our number one priority?

I think Simmons would fit a need too, but I now am thinking the Hog Mollies are more important. I won’t cry if we do draft Simmons and don’t move down....just think we could do better this way. Just my two cents....
Need to come out of this draft with a starting RT...  
GFAN52 : 3/20/2020 8:35 am : link
and a developmental LT and C.
The game is won on the line of scrimmage...  
Rong5611 : 3/20/2020 8:53 am : link
Agree with what's been said, multiple high OL picks is the way to go. OT and C are the priority (although we could move Zietler to C).
RE: If they screw it up this year...  
section125 : 3/20/2020 8:59 am : link
In comment 14843046 Klaatu said:
Quote:
They might as well trade Barkley and look ahead to the 2023 QB class.


Why would they look to the 2023 QB class? You planning on trading Jones or feel he will be incapacitated by then?
RE: RE: If they screw it up this year...  
Klaatu : 3/20/2020 9:17 am : link
In comment 14843599 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14843046 Klaatu said:


Quote:


They might as well trade Barkley and look ahead to the 2023 QB class.



Why would they look to the 2023 QB class? You planning on trading Jones or feel he will be incapacitated by then?


Incapacitated, shell-shocked like David Carr, take your pick. I don't know what the breakdown was between Eli and Jones, but Giants QB's were hit more times in 2019 than any other team's QB's except two. I'd rather not see that happen again this year...or get even worse.
Dallas wasn't giving him a lot of help playing on the left side  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 3/20/2020 9:18 am : link
I thought he played pretty well. Had good vision in terms of the stunts. Sometimes got too upright and pushed back as a result. I was surprised how poorly the rest of the line played at times.

Not a long term solution but a worthy addition. This year's Ron Stone?
RE: RE: RE: If they screw it up this year...  
cosmicj : 3/20/2020 9:54 am : link
In comment 14843630 Klaatu said:
Quote:



Incapacitated, shell-shocked like David Carr, take your pick. I don't know what the breakdown was between Eli and Jones, but Giants QB's were hit more times in 2019 than any other team's QB's except two. I'd rather not see that happen again this year...or get even worse.
Klaatu - that’s a significant and frightening stats about total QB hits in 2019. What’s the source?
RE: RE: RE: RE: If they screw it up this year...  
Klaatu : 3/20/2020 10:00 am : link
In comment 14843709 cosmicj said:
Quote:
In comment 14843630 Klaatu said:


Quote:





Incapacitated, shell-shocked like David Carr, take your pick. I don't know what the breakdown was between Eli and Jones, but Giants QB's were hit more times in 2019 than any other team's QB's except two. I'd rather not see that happen again this year...or get even worse.

Klaatu - that’s a significant and frightening stats about total QB hits in 2019. What’s the source?


I don't remember, but it was brought up here and verified not too long ago. As I recall, the Giants' magic number was 119.
Pro football reference is showing 75 hits  
cosmicj : 3/20/2020 10:24 am : link
That site doesn’t compile these stats to allow for comparison but I did some cross checking and the Giants did very badly on this metric, which is what our eyes were telling us.

Teams like the Patriots and Cowboys both had 55 hits and bad teams like the Jets and Tampa had hits in the 40s, which I thought was interesting.

One team that matched the Giants in this awfulness were the Panthers, also with 75.

I completely agree that this needs to be fixed ASAP but to provide some historical context here, the 2002 Texans season that frightens everyone has David Carr being sacked (sacked, not hit) 76 times, which is more than the excessive 66 times Jones was hit last season.

Still I agree. No matter how bad our D is, the awfulness of the OL last season threatens to derail the entire team strategically.


2019 NYG QB hits - ( New Window )
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