be a bright player who has worked with our new HC, OC, and OL coach:
* Back to Dumpster Diving OL
* This is an awful signing. He might be a downgrade from Remmers.
* The Giants seem like they're continuing to collect the worst players in the league.
*
And the winner:
* The Giants aren't going to be good until they decide to start bringing in good football players.
YES GREAT POINT!! Previously they decided to purposely bring in BAD PLAYERS!!! What an idiotic statement.
Seriously. Some posters act as if Anthony Munoz in his prime was available for 1 year/$4 million, but we chose to sign Fleming instead.
He's a depth guy. Look around the league, most teams are lucky if they have one decent tackle,
Have to draft well, as we all know, to really build the OL
SteelGiant, I appreciate your effort, but I would point out that...
In 2011, the Giants drafted a CB in the 1st round (Prince Amukamara), and passed on Anthony Castonzo.
In 2012, they drafted a RB in the 1st (David Wilson), and passed on Cordy Glenn.
I submit that those two moves led in no small part to reaching for Justin Pugh in 2013, and Ereck Flowers in 2015 out of desperation, two players who were generally believed to be 2nd round talents at best (except, apparently, by Jerry Reese and Marc Ross). Both have ended up as Guards.
In 2016, the Giants drafted Eli Apple in in the 1st round, passing on Laramy Tunsil and Taylor Decker.
In 2017, they drafted Evan Engram, passing on Ryan Ramczyk and Cam Robinson.
In 2018, again out of desperation, they gave a huge contract to Nate Solder.
In 2019, after drafting Daniel Jones at #6, their next two picks were a DT (Lawrence), and a CB (Deandre Baker) after trading up. In the process, they passed on Andre Dillard and Jawaan Taylor. They finally drafted an OT in the 7th round, who's since been waived/injured.
I'd rather not see history repeat itself once again. The Giants will have a chance to draft a legitimate 1st round talent at OT with their 1st round pick this year. In my opinion, they'd be foolish to spend it on any other position.
RE: I dont agree with drafting a lineman with the top10 pick
See below, I grabbed a list of the last bunch of Super Bowl bound teams
how about this past superbowl?
listen, there is no ONE way. But unless you have the greatest coach of all time, and the greatest QB of all time, having studs on your offensive line works.
In 2011, the Giants drafted a CB in the 1st round (Prince Amukamara), and passed on Anthony Castonzo.
In 2012, they drafted a RB in the 1st (David Wilson), and passed on Cordy Glenn.
I submit that those two moves led in no small part to reaching for Justin Pugh in 2013, and Ereck Flowers in 2015 out of desperation, two players who were generally believed to be 2nd round talents at best (except, apparently, by Jerry Reese and Marc Ross). Both have ended up as Guards.
In 2016, the Giants drafted Eli Apple in in the 1st round, passing on Laramy Tunsil and Taylor Decker.
In 2017, they drafted Evan Engram, passing on Ryan Ramczyk and Cam Robinson.
In 2018, again out of desperation, they gave a huge contract to Nate Solder.
In 2019, after drafting Daniel Jones at #6, their next two picks were a DT (Lawrence), and a CB (Deandre Baker) after trading up. In the process, they passed on Andre Dillard and Jawaan Taylor. They finally drafted an OT in the 7th round, who's since been waived/injured.
I'd rather not see history repeat itself once again. The Giants will have a chance to draft a legitimate 1st round talent at OT with their 1st round pick this year. In my opinion, they'd be foolish to spend it on any other position.
2011 - Amukamara was ranked significantly above Costanzo and nobody expected him to be there. I can't fault the Giants for that move
2012 - I was chomping at the bit for Cordy Glenn so I am not sure I am the most unbiased person
2013 - Considering Kyle Long, who was also thought of as more of a 2nd Rounder, was picked one pick later I think the prognosticators were undervaluing which teams in the latter part of the round would look for OL
2016 - See 2012 but change Glenn to Tunsil who, despite not quite living up to the hype, would have been better than Apple
2017 - I did like Ramczyk at that spot, but I can't say that he was by far the BPA and I could understand why you would want Engram if you were going to a quick strike, WCO style offense. Unfortunately he has constantly battled injuries
2019 - With the flashes we saw from Lawrence, I am not disappointed we took him over Dillard. As far as trading up for Baker, it isn't like Taylor has gone out and dominated. Not to mention he would not have fallen to 37. The real OL that we missed was Jenkins who we could have remained at 37 and solidified C position
Mike, what it shows is a total lack of foresight...
On the part of the previous regime, when it was obvious that the O-Line was breaking down. Look at the rest of those drafts. The O-Line was given short shrift for years, relegated mostly to day three picks (with the exceptions of Pugh and Flowers, and Richburg in the 2nd in 2014).
It also shows a complete disregard for positional value, which is something I thought Gettleman would correct, but he seems to show the same disregard. It's no wonder the Giants are in the position they're in today with regard to their O-Line.
RE: Mike, what it shows is a total lack of foresight...
On the part of the previous regime, when it was obvious that the O-Line was breaking down. Look at the rest of those drafts. The O-Line was given short shrift for years, relegated mostly to day three picks (with the exceptions of Pugh and Flowers, and Richburg in the 2nd in 2014).
It also shows a complete disregard for positional value, which is something I thought Gettleman would correct, but he seems to show the same disregard. It's no wonder the Giants are in the position they're in today with regard to their O-Line.
You are complaining that the Giants reached for OL (Pugh, Flowers) and complaining that the Giants picked much higher ranked players over OL (Amukamara). It can't be both ways. I agree, the Giants gave short shrift to the OL but where that is more noticeable is the lack of Day 2 OL picks while overloading on WR and DL (especially DT)
didn't neglect the OL in the draft or FA. He just drafted and signed the wrong players. The one move I won't fault him for is not drafting Tunsil. The Giants had already been burned by too many character risks.
On the part of the previous regime, when it was obvious that the O-Line was breaking down. Look at the rest of those drafts. The O-Line was given short shrift for years, relegated mostly to day three picks (with the exceptions of Pugh and Flowers, and Richburg in the 2nd in 2014).
It also shows a complete disregard for positional value, which is something I thought Gettleman would correct, but he seems to show the same disregard. It's no wonder the Giants are in the position they're in today with regard to their O-Line.
You are complaining that the Giants reached for OL (Pugh, Flowers) and complaining that the Giants picked much higher ranked players over OL (Amukamara). It can't be both ways. I agree, the Giants gave short shrift to the OL but where that is more noticeable is the lack of Day 2 OL picks while overloading on WR and DL (especially DT)
Prince Amukamara and Anthony Castonzo had the same exact grade on NFL.com - 7.5. As I recall, the Giants had shown a lot of interest in Nate Solder, who went two picks earlier. Castonzo should have been their "consolation prize," just as Tunsil or Decker should have been after they missed out on Conklin five years later. When you have the chance to draft top-tier OL talent, you should take it.
Reaches don't happen in a vacuum. They're a product of a lack of foresight leading to desperation. 2011 and 2012 led to 2013 and 2015. Poor drafting also leads to overpaying for free agents. 2016 and 2017 led to Solder (and Omameh, too). One mistake compounded by another.
These mistakes were repeated again in 2019, which, again, is why we're in the position we're in today.
Klaatu & Reb - my pt isn't to neglect OL, it's "don't pass on a bosa"
Klaatu - you asked the question "is there anything more important than protecting Jones?", my answer to that would be that while it's important 1 player doesn't totally eliminate all risk, especially since Jones runs on his own. So yes it's important - and you are 100% right that passing on OL for skill players and underinvesting in that area was the downfall of the organization from 2011 and on. But I'm not advocating passing on OL for Jerry Jeudy or CeeDee Lamb. Only an elite defender because they are perhaps the only thing harder to find than an elite OT.
So my counter hypothetical would be - was there anything more important for the 49ers going from the 2nd pick in the draft to the 2nd to last pick in the draft than adding Nick Bosa with the former?
if you look at it objectively, Reese followed the same pattern as
Accorsi did re the OL. Mid-round picks, an occasional high (1st or 2nd) round pick, and an FA or 2 where needed. But Ernie picked better players. To wit::
Accorsi Reese
High draft: Snee Flowers, Beatty
Mid draft: Diehl Petrus
FA: O'Hara/McKenzie Baas
UDFA: Seubert n/a
The 49ers already had a pretty good offensive line, having drafted Mike Mcglinchey in the 1st round in 2018 to play opposite Joe Staley. Their Guards weren't all that great, and adding Richburg to play Center didn't help much, but it was still in the top half of the league. You can't say that about the Giants.
Ernie found religion on the OL at the end when Coughlin got here
prior to Coughlin I think the only OL pick I can remember that semi-worked out was Petigout? Ron Stone was a good FA signing but under the radar, Glenn Parker/Lomas Brown were 2 hail mary's that happened to work out - along with Mike Rosenthal, Whittle, Seubert, etc.
The moment Coughlin arrived they drafted Snee with the highest OL pick since Petigout, and shortly thereafter added McKenzie + O'Hara. Seubert and Diehl were already here, but the 2 big investments on the right side of the line were key obviously to 2 SB runs.
Reese didn't maintain that level of importance adding talented OL until it was too late.
The 49ers already had a pretty good offensive line, having drafted Mike Mcglinchey in the 1st round in 2018 to play opposite Joe Staley. Their Guards weren't all that great, and adding Richburg to play Center didn't help much, but it was still in the top half of the league. You can't say that about the Giants.
I sort of agree because their OT's are vastly superior, however I don't think overall there's a gap so large we can't have a comparable unit post-draft. Also I'd say LT/OL in general is just as big of a need for them as it is us because Staley is several years older than Solder and has missed games each of the last few years. I believe he'd even been considering retirement recently? So while there may not have been an OT worth the #2 pick last year, they did also pass on Greg Little, Cody Ford, Dalton Risner at #33 for Deebo Samuel.
Looking at the depth of the draft I think it's possible to add an OL at a similar level to McGlinchey (like the guys I mentioned from last year's draft) with our 2nd round pick, and if we do I think our OL will be similar to their's in terms of overall talent. I think our OL last year was a lot closer to middle of the pack than people realize with how poor OL play around the league has become - and adding a solid young player plus improved coaching it could be a strength for the first time in almost a decade even if they go D round 1.
And obviously if value matches need and we do get 1 of the top 4 OT's I think most would take our OL over there's as a unit.
This year, I want two OT's drafted. One plug-and-play (Jedrick Wills is my preference), and one good developmental prospect (take your pick). I also want the Giants to draft a very good C/OG prospect, and if it was up to me, I'd get all three by the end of the 4th round. To me, it's that important (and it's also one reason the trade for Williams pisses me off so much).
This year, I want two OT's drafted. One plug-and-play (Jedrick Wills is my preference), and one good developmental prospect (take your pick). I also want the Giants to draft a very good C/OG prospect, and if it was up to me, I'd get all three by the end of the 4th round. To me, it's that important (and it's also one reason the trade for Williams pisses me off so much).
I want 2 OL from our 4 picks in the top 106 (plus 1 or 2 developmental picks later).
If you go by average # of players selected, I believe that would net us 2 of the top 20 OL in the class.
Mcginn has 9 OL in his top 50 (8 tackles plus Ruiz) so we'd get 1 of those players in round 1 or 2, and if you wrote out the next crop on most of the rankings you would add another player like Cushenberry, Biadasz, Hennessy, Muti, Hanson, Harris, Lucas Niang, Prince, etc. with the comp pick or early 4th.
I'm also 100% in on a trade down if there's a good offer to pick up extra picks as well, and if we get a 3rd top 50 pick I'd have no issue clustering 2 OL from their top 10.
I just don't want to reach for a non-elite OT in round 1 if there's an elite defender still on the board. I like all 4 of the top OTs, but I'm not sure any is a day 1 impact starter at LT. I'm not sure they aren't either though and if their scouts think 1 of these guys is I'd be fine with that pick.
The way I see it, we're going to stick with Solder at LT this year. We need a plug-and-play RT, and in my view that's Wills. I'd like the 2nd OT to be able to replace Solder at LT in 2021, or replace Wills at RT if they feel he can slide over, so that prospect has to be pretty good.
C/OG is a real bone of contention with me. I was hoping the Giants would sign at least a halfway decent placeholder to play OC, but so far that's a no-go. We'll see what happens going forward but the remaining free agent pickings are pretty slim. Honestly, I don't know if there's a rookie who can come in and start right away, but I'd still move OC up a notch on my draft wish list.
The way I see it, we're going to stick with Solder at LT this year. We need a plug-and-play RT, and in my view that's Wills. I'd like the 2nd OT to be able to replace Solder at LT in 2021, or replace Wills at RT if they feel he can slide over, so that prospect has to be pretty good.
C/OG is a real bone of contention with me. I was hoping the Giants would sign at least a halfway decent placeholder to play OC, but so far that's a no-go. We'll see what happens going forward but the remaining free agent pickings are pretty slim. Honestly, I don't know if there's a rookie who can come in and start right away, but I'd still move OC up a notch on my draft wish list.
I think Gates is an option for 1 of the 2 open positions. To be clear I'd still draft a player at both to compete, develop, add depth - but Gates did show something last year.
I'm also still hoping they make another addition. Trading for Brandon Linder at center for example would be a great move right now if Jax is selling anything not nailed down.
The way I see it, we're going to stick with Solder at LT this year. We need a plug-and-play RT, and in my view that's Wills. I'd like the 2nd OT to be able to replace Solder at LT in 2021, or replace Wills at RT if they feel he can slide over, so that prospect has to be pretty good.
C/OG is a real bone of contention with me. I was hoping the Giants would sign at least a halfway decent placeholder to play OC, but so far that's a no-go. We'll see what happens going forward but the remaining free agent pickings are pretty slim. Honestly, I don't know if there's a rookie who can come in and start right away, but I'd still move OC up a notch on my draft wish list.
I think Gates is an option for 1 of the 2 open positions. To be clear I'd still draft a player at both to compete, develop, add depth - but Gates did show something last year.
I'm also still hoping they make another addition. Trading for Brandon Linder at center for example would be a great move right now if Jax is selling anything not nailed down.
I'd trade for Linder in a heartbeat if we could get him for a day three pick (or two or three of them, lol).
I've seen a lot of posts advocating moving Gates to Center, but I think that's unwise. He's never played it before, and I think we'd be better off grooming him to replace Zeitler at RG. I like the way he's developed. If the Giants feel he can compete at RT, so be it.
agreed - a player like Linder is a perfect add with day 3 picks
I’m much more optimistic after watching that 9 minute video of him. It appeared his kryptonite was the fake outside, rush inside move. He got caught on that twice. Mostly everything else he looked strong and able to keep out the DE/Edge rusher.
he looks serviceable, but Dak is also getting rid of the ball quicker. Jones would’ve gotten killed in there. He seems to get pushed back quite a bit, as well. I’m hoping he’s here as a swing tackle only.
Where ar e the Giants getting this money? I apologize if
He has lots of flaws to his game. I don't care how good of an athlete he is, how good is, or how much can his technique improve. Let him run a 4.6 next time. Who gives a shit hes an offensive lineman..Now is that juicy? of course, imagine him pulling but if he can't effectively stop a bull rush, a stunt, a speed rush, how does he handle guys who have sick bend or great hands. Hes 4th in my book out of the 4. Not saying I wouldn't take him with our 2nd rounder or if I had say 18th pick in the draft but not anywhere near 4th. BTW his 23 reps of 225 not impressive for a tackle. Not awful but not super impressive, guy had all year to prepare for it, I was expecting 28 or 29 so as great as his combine was the bench was a tad light for an elite lineman.
I want simmons in the worst way. I think if we get simmons and let him play like he did in college....we can be really good on d. We are deep on the d line, we would be dangerous now at LB, love our young safeties and with bradbury I love our corners.
He has lots of flaws to his game. I don't care how good of an athlete he is, how good on an actual offensive lineamn is he?
Can his technique improve drastically? Let him run a 4.6 next time since when is the 40 yard dash a test of how well the guy can block demarcus lawrence? ..Now is that combine juicy? of course, imagine him pulling but if he can't effectively stop a bull rush, a stunt, a speed rush, how does he handle guys who have sick bend? or great hands. Hes 4th in my book out of the 4. Not saying I wouldn't take him with our 2nd rounder or if I had say 18th pick in the draft but not anywhere near 4th. BTW his 23 reps of 225 not impressive for a tackle. Not awful but not super impressive, guy had all year to prepare for it, I was expecting 28 or 29 so as great as his combine was the bench was a tad light for an elite lineman.
I want simmons in the worst way. I think if we get simmons and let him play like he did in college....we can be really good on d. What a change that would be We are deep on the d line and should be able to be middle of the pack rushing the passer and tops in run d, we would be dangerous now at LB, love our young safeties and with bradbury I love our corners. I think baker, love, beal, ballentine and peppers all show marked improvement. After all your supposed to improve at a young age and now with better coaching I expect a lot from that crew.
Rd 2 and Rd 3 we need best o lineman available and one of them has to be a center.
See below, I grabbed a list of the last bunch of Super Bowl bound teams - a line is built with good coaching and good chemistry there are no top 10 picks but they very rarely drafted one in the first round, and they picked at the bottom of the draft.
What you would see is on the defensive side of the ball - a lot of high picks. Just saying
2018
T Trent Brown San Francisco 49ers / 7th / 244th pick / 2015
T Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
2017
T Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
2016
T Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
RT Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011
2014
LT Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Dan Connolly
C Bryan Stork New England Patriots / 4th / 105th pick / 2014
RG Ryan Wendell
RT Sebastian Vollmer New England Patriots / 2nd / 58th pick / 2009
2011
LT Matt Light New England Patriots / 2nd / 48th pick / 2001
LG Logan Mankins* New England Patriots / 1st / 32nd pick / 2005
C Dan Connolly
RG Brian Waters*
RT Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
2004
T Brandon Gorin San Diego Chargers / 7th / 201st pick / 2001
T Matt Light New England Patriots / 2nd / 48th pick / 2001
LG Joe Andruzzi
C Dan Koppen New England Patriots / 5th / 164th pick / 2003
RG Steve Neal
. Great post few top LT are picked successfully in the top ten of the draft. This where you get Defense or QBS. Thing DG sees it the same way.
RE: RE: I dont agree with drafting a lineman with the top10 pick
See below, I grabbed a list of the last bunch of Super Bowl bound teams - a line is built with good coaching and good chemistry there are no top 10 picks but they very rarely drafted one in the first round, and they picked at the bottom of the draft.
What you would see is on the defensive side of the ball - a lot of high picks. Just saying
2018
T Trent Brown San Francisco 49ers / 7th / 244th pick / 2015
T Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
2017
T Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
2016
T Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
RT Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011
2014
LT Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Dan Connolly
C Bryan Stork New England Patriots / 4th / 105th pick / 2014
RG Ryan Wendell
RT Sebastian Vollmer New England Patriots / 2nd / 58th pick / 2009
2011
LT Matt Light New England Patriots / 2nd / 48th pick / 2001
LG Logan Mankins* New England Patriots / 1st / 32nd pick / 2005
C Dan Connolly
RG Brian Waters*
RT Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
2004
T Brandon Gorin San Diego Chargers / 7th / 201st pick / 2001
T Matt Light New England Patriots / 2nd / 48th pick / 2001
LG Joe Andruzzi
C Dan Koppen New England Patriots / 5th / 164th pick / 2003
RG Steve Neal
. Great post few top LT are picked successfully in the top ten of the draft. This where you get Defense or QBS. Thing DG sees it the same way.
Most teams picking in the Top 10 are far away from actually competing. The same can be said for just about any position, especially early in the career of a player except possibly QB. The issue with LT is that if you tried to put them into a 5 tier bell curve (elite, above average, average, below average, OMGWTF) you are not going to see a lot of difference between above average and high end of average group. Where it is noticeable is if you get into the below average and OMGWTF groups. Even the best OT in this draft I don't see anyone who I would feel comfortable reaching a ceiling higher than above average. If we trade down from #4 to the latter part of the top 12 then above average at a position I can live with. At #4 it is a different issue.
O-Line is the priority when we've just invested the #6 and #2 overall picks on a young QB and RB.
That's what makes sense for our team right now.
I'm ok with trading down as far as #9 with Jax if you want to add some picks and still get an OT and OC.
So you solve the OL then go defense with as many picks as you want. Maybe slip in a 4th round WR to cash in on the ridiculous class this year. Look for a Kevin Boss type TE on day 3. Package a couple of those 7th rounders to move around the back end of the board on Day 3 to find one.
Garrett benefitted from JJ's investment in the OL a few years ago and controlled the clock with Zeke running behind a talented OL
DG is not beyond cluster drafting as he demonstrated last year with DBs
Trade down with #4 and pick up as many picks as possible
And let our drafts from 1988 & 1989 be our guide. In fact lets compress them since we will have additional picks in the top rounds
1988 Eric Moore T with our first pick then Jumbo Elliot T with our second
1989 Brian Williams C with our first pick and then Bob Kratch G with our second which was actually in the third round
This year's draft could look a little like this:
Tradedown #4 to later in the first round and pick up additional picks
Our first pick would be one of Wills/Wirfs/Becton/Thomas - all OTs
Our second pick would be one of Ruiz/Biadasz/Cushenberry/Hennessy C
Our third pick would be one of Ezra Cleveland/Prince Tega Wanogho/ Lucas Niang/Saahdiq Charles - all developmental OTs
Our fourth pick Logan Stenberg G
Hopefully all of the above picks could be made in the first three rounds leaving us with an additional six picks to garner a wr, rb, te, lb and s
Our OL would be refashioned for years thereby protecting our qb and supporting our HOF rb
I personally think this is the way to go particularly if we go with Wanogho!
The more I like the idea of trading down and making my first two draft picks OL studs. I too want to have a Dallas Cowboys OL for both Jones and Barkley’s sake. Let’s face it, those two guys are our franchise, so shouldn’t we put protecting themselves as our number one priority?
I think Simmons would fit a need too, but I now am thinking the Hog Mollies are more important. I won’t cry if we do draft Simmons and don’t move down....just think we could do better this way. Just my two cents....
Need to come out of this draft with a starting RT...
They might as well trade Barkley and look ahead to the 2023 QB class.
Why would they look to the 2023 QB class? You planning on trading Jones or feel he will be incapacitated by then?
Incapacitated, shell-shocked like David Carr, take your pick. I don't know what the breakdown was between Eli and Jones, but Giants QB's were hit more times in 2019 than any other team's QB's except two. I'd rather not see that happen again this year...or get even worse.
Dallas wasn't giving him a lot of help playing on the left side
I thought he played pretty well. Had good vision in terms of the stunts. Sometimes got too upright and pushed back as a result. I was surprised how poorly the rest of the line played at times.
Not a long term solution but a worthy addition. This year's Ron Stone?
* Back to Dumpster Diving OL
* This is an awful signing. He might be a downgrade from Remmers.
* The Giants seem like they're continuing to collect the worst players in the league.
*
And the winner:
* The Giants aren't going to be good until they decide to start bringing in good football players.
YES GREAT POINT!! Previously they decided to purposely bring in BAD PLAYERS!!! What an idiotic statement.
Seriously. Some posters act as if Anthony Munoz in his prime was available for 1 year/$4 million, but we chose to sign Fleming instead.
He's a depth guy. Look around the league, most teams are lucky if they have one decent tackle,
Have to draft well, as we all know, to really build the OL
In 2012, they drafted a RB in the 1st (David Wilson), and passed on Cordy Glenn.
I submit that those two moves led in no small part to reaching for Justin Pugh in 2013, and Ereck Flowers in 2015 out of desperation, two players who were generally believed to be 2nd round talents at best (except, apparently, by Jerry Reese and Marc Ross). Both have ended up as Guards.
In 2016, the Giants drafted Eli Apple in in the 1st round, passing on Laramy Tunsil and Taylor Decker.
In 2017, they drafted Evan Engram, passing on Ryan Ramczyk and Cam Robinson.
In 2018, again out of desperation, they gave a huge contract to Nate Solder.
In 2019, after drafting Daniel Jones at #6, their next two picks were a DT (Lawrence), and a CB (Deandre Baker) after trading up. In the process, they passed on Andre Dillard and Jawaan Taylor. They finally drafted an OT in the 7th round, who's since been waived/injured.
I'd rather not see history repeat itself once again. The Giants will have a chance to draft a legitimate 1st round talent at OT with their 1st round pick this year. In my opinion, they'd be foolish to spend it on any other position.
listen, there is no ONE way. But unless you have the greatest coach of all time, and the greatest QB of all time, having studs on your offensive line works.
Quote:
we collecting bad OL and LBs still?
Have you ever watched a game before?
Nasty, nasty.
In 2012, they drafted a RB in the 1st (David Wilson), and passed on Cordy Glenn.
I submit that those two moves led in no small part to reaching for Justin Pugh in 2013, and Ereck Flowers in 2015 out of desperation, two players who were generally believed to be 2nd round talents at best (except, apparently, by Jerry Reese and Marc Ross). Both have ended up as Guards.
In 2016, the Giants drafted Eli Apple in in the 1st round, passing on Laramy Tunsil and Taylor Decker.
In 2017, they drafted Evan Engram, passing on Ryan Ramczyk and Cam Robinson.
In 2018, again out of desperation, they gave a huge contract to Nate Solder.
In 2019, after drafting Daniel Jones at #6, their next two picks were a DT (Lawrence), and a CB (Deandre Baker) after trading up. In the process, they passed on Andre Dillard and Jawaan Taylor. They finally drafted an OT in the 7th round, who's since been waived/injured.
I'd rather not see history repeat itself once again. The Giants will have a chance to draft a legitimate 1st round talent at OT with their 1st round pick this year. In my opinion, they'd be foolish to spend it on any other position.
2011 - Amukamara was ranked significantly above Costanzo and nobody expected him to be there. I can't fault the Giants for that move
2012 - I was chomping at the bit for Cordy Glenn so I am not sure I am the most unbiased person
2013 - Considering Kyle Long, who was also thought of as more of a 2nd Rounder, was picked one pick later I think the prognosticators were undervaluing which teams in the latter part of the round would look for OL
2016 - See 2012 but change Glenn to Tunsil who, despite not quite living up to the hype, would have been better than Apple
2017 - I did like Ramczyk at that spot, but I can't say that he was by far the BPA and I could understand why you would want Engram if you were going to a quick strike, WCO style offense. Unfortunately he has constantly battled injuries
2019 - With the flashes we saw from Lawrence, I am not disappointed we took him over Dillard. As far as trading up for Baker, it isn't like Taylor has gone out and dominated. Not to mention he would not have fallen to 37. The real OL that we missed was Jenkins who we could have remained at 37 and solidified C position
It also shows a complete disregard for positional value, which is something I thought Gettleman would correct, but he seems to show the same disregard. It's no wonder the Giants are in the position they're in today with regard to their O-Line.
It also shows a complete disregard for positional value, which is something I thought Gettleman would correct, but he seems to show the same disregard. It's no wonder the Giants are in the position they're in today with regard to their O-Line.
You are complaining that the Giants reached for OL (Pugh, Flowers) and complaining that the Giants picked much higher ranked players over OL (Amukamara). It can't be both ways. I agree, the Giants gave short shrift to the OL but where that is more noticeable is the lack of Day 2 OL picks while overloading on WR and DL (especially DT)
Quote:
On the part of the previous regime, when it was obvious that the O-Line was breaking down. Look at the rest of those drafts. The O-Line was given short shrift for years, relegated mostly to day three picks (with the exceptions of Pugh and Flowers, and Richburg in the 2nd in 2014).
It also shows a complete disregard for positional value, which is something I thought Gettleman would correct, but he seems to show the same disregard. It's no wonder the Giants are in the position they're in today with regard to their O-Line.
You are complaining that the Giants reached for OL (Pugh, Flowers) and complaining that the Giants picked much higher ranked players over OL (Amukamara). It can't be both ways. I agree, the Giants gave short shrift to the OL but where that is more noticeable is the lack of Day 2 OL picks while overloading on WR and DL (especially DT)
Prince Amukamara and Anthony Castonzo had the same exact grade on NFL.com - 7.5. As I recall, the Giants had shown a lot of interest in Nate Solder, who went two picks earlier. Castonzo should have been their "consolation prize," just as Tunsil or Decker should have been after they missed out on Conklin five years later. When you have the chance to draft top-tier OL talent, you should take it.
Reaches don't happen in a vacuum. They're a product of a lack of foresight leading to desperation. 2011 and 2012 led to 2013 and 2015. Poor drafting also leads to overpaying for free agents. 2016 and 2017 led to Solder (and Omameh, too). One mistake compounded by another.
These mistakes were repeated again in 2019, which, again, is why we're in the position we're in today.
So my counter hypothetical would be - was there anything more important for the 49ers going from the 2nd pick in the draft to the 2nd to last pick in the draft than adding Nick Bosa with the former?
Accorsi Reese
High draft: Snee Flowers, Beatty
Mid draft: Diehl Petrus
FA: O'Hara/McKenzie Baas
UDFA: Seubert n/a
The moment Coughlin arrived they drafted Snee with the highest OL pick since Petigout, and shortly thereafter added McKenzie + O'Hara. Seubert and Diehl were already here, but the 2 big investments on the right side of the line were key obviously to 2 SB runs.
Reese didn't maintain that level of importance adding talented OL until it was too late.
Sure are acquiring a lot of Stanford guys - likely JJ's Belichekian team building. Has to be better than Syracuse and BC.
Throw in Garrett.
I sort of agree because their OT's are vastly superior, however I don't think overall there's a gap so large we can't have a comparable unit post-draft. Also I'd say LT/OL in general is just as big of a need for them as it is us because Staley is several years older than Solder and has missed games each of the last few years. I believe he'd even been considering retirement recently? So while there may not have been an OT worth the #2 pick last year, they did also pass on Greg Little, Cody Ford, Dalton Risner at #33 for Deebo Samuel.
Looking at the depth of the draft I think it's possible to add an OL at a similar level to McGlinchey (like the guys I mentioned from last year's draft) with our 2nd round pick, and if we do I think our OL will be similar to their's in terms of overall talent. I think our OL last year was a lot closer to middle of the pack than people realize with how poor OL play around the league has become - and adding a solid young player plus improved coaching it could be a strength for the first time in almost a decade even if they go D round 1.
And obviously if value matches need and we do get 1 of the top 4 OT's I think most would take our OL over there's as a unit.
I want 2 OL from our 4 picks in the top 106 (plus 1 or 2 developmental picks later).
If you go by average # of players selected, I believe that would net us 2 of the top 20 OL in the class.
Mcginn has 9 OL in his top 50 (8 tackles plus Ruiz) so we'd get 1 of those players in round 1 or 2, and if you wrote out the next crop on most of the rankings you would add another player like Cushenberry, Biadasz, Hennessy, Muti, Hanson, Harris, Lucas Niang, Prince, etc. with the comp pick or early 4th.
I'm also 100% in on a trade down if there's a good offer to pick up extra picks as well, and if we get a 3rd top 50 pick I'd have no issue clustering 2 OL from their top 10.
I just don't want to reach for a non-elite OT in round 1 if there's an elite defender still on the board. I like all 4 of the top OTs, but I'm not sure any is a day 1 impact starter at LT. I'm not sure they aren't either though and if their scouts think 1 of these guys is I'd be fine with that pick.
C/OG is a real bone of contention with me. I was hoping the Giants would sign at least a halfway decent placeholder to play OC, but so far that's a no-go. We'll see what happens going forward but the remaining free agent pickings are pretty slim. Honestly, I don't know if there's a rookie who can come in and start right away, but I'd still move OC up a notch on my draft wish list.
C/OG is a real bone of contention with me. I was hoping the Giants would sign at least a halfway decent placeholder to play OC, but so far that's a no-go. We'll see what happens going forward but the remaining free agent pickings are pretty slim. Honestly, I don't know if there's a rookie who can come in and start right away, but I'd still move OC up a notch on my draft wish list.
I think Gates is an option for 1 of the 2 open positions. To be clear I'd still draft a player at both to compete, develop, add depth - but Gates did show something last year.
I'm also still hoping they make another addition. Trading for Brandon Linder at center for example would be a great move right now if Jax is selling anything not nailed down.
Quote:
The way I see it, we're going to stick with Solder at LT this year. We need a plug-and-play RT, and in my view that's Wills. I'd like the 2nd OT to be able to replace Solder at LT in 2021, or replace Wills at RT if they feel he can slide over, so that prospect has to be pretty good.
C/OG is a real bone of contention with me. I was hoping the Giants would sign at least a halfway decent placeholder to play OC, but so far that's a no-go. We'll see what happens going forward but the remaining free agent pickings are pretty slim. Honestly, I don't know if there's a rookie who can come in and start right away, but I'd still move OC up a notch on my draft wish list.
I think Gates is an option for 1 of the 2 open positions. To be clear I'd still draft a player at both to compete, develop, add depth - but Gates did show something last year.
I'm also still hoping they make another addition. Trading for Brandon Linder at center for example would be a great move right now if Jax is selling anything not nailed down.
I'd trade for Linder in a heartbeat if we could get him for a day three pick (or two or three of them, lol).
I've seen a lot of posts advocating moving Gates to Center, but I think that's unwise. He's never played it before, and I think we'd be better off grooming him to replace Zeitler at RG. I like the way he's developed. If the Giants feel he can compete at RT, so be it.
I'd also rather Gates stay at RT, so that'd be another benefit of adding someone like Linder.
I’m much more optimistic after watching that 9 minute video of him. It appeared his kryptonite was the fake outside, rush inside move. He got caught on that twice. Mostly everything else he looked strong and able to keep out the DE/Edge rusher.
Need to come out of this draft with two OT's. One to start at RT, and one to develop as a future starter at LT.
I want simmons in the worst way. I think if we get simmons and let him play like he did in college....we can be really good on d. We are deep on the d line, we would be dangerous now at LB, love our young safeties and with bradbury I love our corners.
Rd 2 and Rd 3 we need best o lineman available.
Can his technique improve drastically? Let him run a 4.6 next time since when is the 40 yard dash a test of how well the guy can block demarcus lawrence? ..Now is that combine juicy? of course, imagine him pulling but if he can't effectively stop a bull rush, a stunt, a speed rush, how does he handle guys who have sick bend? or great hands. Hes 4th in my book out of the 4. Not saying I wouldn't take him with our 2nd rounder or if I had say 18th pick in the draft but not anywhere near 4th. BTW his 23 reps of 225 not impressive for a tackle. Not awful but not super impressive, guy had all year to prepare for it, I was expecting 28 or 29 so as great as his combine was the bench was a tad light for an elite lineman.
I want simmons in the worst way. I think if we get simmons and let him play like he did in college....we can be really good on d. What a change that would be We are deep on the d line and should be able to be middle of the pack rushing the passer and tops in run d, we would be dangerous now at LB, love our young safeties and with bradbury I love our corners. I think baker, love, beal, ballentine and peppers all show marked improvement. After all your supposed to improve at a young age and now with better coaching I expect a lot from that crew.
Rd 2 and Rd 3 we need best o lineman available and one of them has to be a center.
Fleming is a backup/swing tackle. Start Wills at LT let the best of Solder/Gates/Fleming play RT.
Then draft another OT in 2021.
Haven't we seen enough of this crap? Fix the O-line once and for all.
Fleming is a backup/swing tackle. Start Wills at LT let the best of Solder/Gates/Fleming play RT.
Then draft another OT in 2021.
You know we have to play defense...?
What you would see is on the defensive side of the ball - a lot of high picks. Just saying
2018
T Trent Brown San Francisco 49ers / 7th / 244th pick / 2015
T Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
2017
T Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
2016
T Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
RT Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011
2014
LT Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Dan Connolly
C Bryan Stork New England Patriots / 4th / 105th pick / 2014
RG Ryan Wendell
RT Sebastian Vollmer New England Patriots / 2nd / 58th pick / 2009
2011
LT Matt Light New England Patriots / 2nd / 48th pick / 2001
LG Logan Mankins* New England Patriots / 1st / 32nd pick / 2005
C Dan Connolly
RG Brian Waters*
RT Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
2004
T Brandon Gorin San Diego Chargers / 7th / 201st pick / 2001
T Matt Light New England Patriots / 2nd / 48th pick / 2001
LG Joe Andruzzi
C Dan Koppen New England Patriots / 5th / 164th pick / 2003
RG Steve Neal
. Great post few top LT are picked successfully in the top ten of the draft. This where you get Defense or QBS. Thing DG sees it the same way.
Which is why the Giants are in the position they're in today vis a vis their offensive line as well as their defense.
Oh, and do you 'thing' he sees it the same way with RB's?
Quote:
See below, I grabbed a list of the last bunch of Super Bowl bound teams - a line is built with good coaching and good chemistry there are no top 10 picks but they very rarely drafted one in the first round, and they picked at the bottom of the draft.
What you would see is on the defensive side of the ball - a lot of high picks. Just saying
2018
T Trent Brown San Francisco 49ers / 7th / 244th pick / 2015
T Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
2017
T Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
2016
T Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
C David Andrews
RG Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
RT Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011
2014
LT Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
LG Dan Connolly
C Bryan Stork New England Patriots / 4th / 105th pick / 2014
RG Ryan Wendell
RT Sebastian Vollmer New England Patriots / 2nd / 58th pick / 2009
2011
LT Matt Light New England Patriots / 2nd / 48th pick / 2001
LG Logan Mankins* New England Patriots / 1st / 32nd pick / 2005
C Dan Connolly
RG Brian Waters*
RT Nate Solder New England Patriots / 1st / 17th pick / 2011
2004
T Brandon Gorin San Diego Chargers / 7th / 201st pick / 2001
T Matt Light New England Patriots / 2nd / 48th pick / 2001
LG Joe Andruzzi
C Dan Koppen New England Patriots / 5th / 164th pick / 2003
RG Steve Neal
. Great post few top LT are picked successfully in the top ten of the draft. This where you get Defense or QBS. Thing DG sees it the same way.
Most teams picking in the Top 10 are far away from actually competing. The same can be said for just about any position, especially early in the career of a player except possibly QB. The issue with LT is that if you tried to put them into a 5 tier bell curve (elite, above average, average, below average, OMGWTF) you are not going to see a lot of difference between above average and high end of average group. Where it is noticeable is if you get into the below average and OMGWTF groups. Even the best OT in this draft I don't see anyone who I would feel comfortable reaching a ceiling higher than above average. If we trade down from #4 to the latter part of the top 12 then above average at a position I can live with. At #4 it is a different issue.
The issue is that we don't have any Tackles that are even worthy of starting NFL games.
You think going for one in Rd 3 is going to solve for that...good luck.
How long do you want this to go on?
That's what makes sense for our team right now.
I'm ok with trading down as far as #9 with Jax if you want to add some picks and still get an OT and OC.
So you solve the OL then go defense with as many picks as you want. Maybe slip in a 4th round WR to cash in on the ridiculous class this year. Look for a Kevin Boss type TE on day 3. Package a couple of those 7th rounders to move around the back end of the board on Day 3 to find one.
That's the smart plan.
Garrett benefitted from JJ's investment in the OL a few years ago and controlled the clock with Zeke running behind a talented OL
DG is not beyond cluster drafting as he demonstrated last year with DBs
Trade down with #4 and pick up as many picks as possible
And let our drafts from 1988 & 1989 be our guide. In fact lets compress them since we will have additional picks in the top rounds
1988 Eric Moore T with our first pick then Jumbo Elliot T with our second
1989 Brian Williams C with our first pick and then Bob Kratch G with our second which was actually in the third round
This year's draft could look a little like this:
Tradedown #4 to later in the first round and pick up additional picks
Our first pick would be one of Wills/Wirfs/Becton/Thomas - all OTs
Our second pick would be one of Ruiz/Biadasz/Cushenberry/Hennessy C
Our third pick would be one of Ezra Cleveland/Prince Tega Wanogho/ Lucas Niang/Saahdiq Charles - all developmental OTs
Our fourth pick Logan Stenberg G
Hopefully all of the above picks could be made in the first three rounds leaving us with an additional six picks to garner a wr, rb, te, lb and s
Our OL would be refashioned for years thereby protecting our qb and supporting our HOF rb
I personally think this is the way to go particularly if we go with Wanogho!
Can never have too many Prince's on the team...
Something to think about
Yep and find another GM
I think Simmons would fit a need too, but I now am thinking the Hog Mollies are more important. I won’t cry if we do draft Simmons and don’t move down....just think we could do better this way. Just my two cents....
Why would they look to the 2023 QB class? You planning on trading Jones or feel he will be incapacitated by then?
Quote:
They might as well trade Barkley and look ahead to the 2023 QB class.
Why would they look to the 2023 QB class? You planning on trading Jones or feel he will be incapacitated by then?
Incapacitated, shell-shocked like David Carr, take your pick. I don't know what the breakdown was between Eli and Jones, but Giants QB's were hit more times in 2019 than any other team's QB's except two. I'd rather not see that happen again this year...or get even worse.
Not a long term solution but a worthy addition. This year's Ron Stone?