Biggest Surprise Thus Far? Edge Rush

yeah man, let’s do it!

How many teams have 3 stud ER?

That's why I'm hoping we trade out of the #4 and pick Chaisson and add an extra pick or two that upgrades the OL.

Strahan, Osi, Kiwi and Tuck when we did. But yeah, why can't we just get a Michael Strahan, Osi Umenyiora and a Justin Tuck this off-season? I'm with ya..

holes this year. Do not have the money. Fackrell took Golden's spot. Looks like they are banking on Carter and Ximenes to put pressure on the QB, or DLaw and LW...

Im all for any play we can make for a good Edge. Big $$$ for Clowney or a big $$$/asset sign and trade for Yannick at this point..

We're 4 days into FA...

There is the rest of FA and the draft and trades etc...

The last 2 years we cleared JPP & Vernon contracts, so I see the hesitation to dump $20m into a question with Clowney.

That being said, I agree we need Edge help, last year made that obvious...but I don't believe this is a finished product - It's March 20th.

...yea man. Then we run the Triangle Defense!

Championship!

In comment 14843522 JFIB said:

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That's why I'm hoping we trade out of the #4 and pick Chaisson and add an extra pick or two that upgrades the OL.

I’m a huge K’Lavon Chaisson fan. Nobody talks about him. Bucky Brooks doesn’t even have him in his top 5 ER yet has him going to Atlanta in his mock. That is how under the radar he is.

If we can trade back with LV or Jax I would love to get Chaisson and an OT in round 1.

DG’s dragging this out for as long as he has is puzzling. I’m not talking about this offseason alone - I’m talking about since he got here. EDGE is the most important position in a 3-4. Period. Waiting this long to address it (and we’ll see what he does in the draft) is, frankly, a poor prioritization of resources.

Not gonna make this another Barkley at #2 thread but...

all you want but look at Philly and Dallas pass rush to ours. It’s comical. But please let’s mock the OP for wanting our team to be better.

why do we need to rush the passer if we can stop the run? since they won't be able to run all their passes will be predictable!


/s

The biggest surprise is the lack of OL signings. On the edge at least they signed Fackrell and have Ximines and Carter. If we had equivalent talent on the OL it would be a massive upgrade. Instead, not only don't even have 5 legitimate starters, we may have only 2 with Cam Flemming our only addition. Be thankful for for what we have on the egde.

It might be wise to swoop in and pick up an underrated guy. Not sure who though. It seems Golden is that underrated guy. The OL was very weak this offseason. I fully believe we are addressing it in the draft and I am happy with that. Ideally, what I hope happens is that we trade down from 4 to 6 and get a 2nd and 3rd round pick. At 6 I like Wills. In the 2nd I would like Ruiz and Baun as of now.

And agree that it is a priority, but pass rushers that get to the QB in less than 3 seconds are hard to come by. All of the good players were tagged like Ngakoue, Barrett and Judon.

The Fackrell signing is actually a very good one mainly because he is affordable and still young. He has proven to be productive and is a known commodity of Patrick Graham our new DC.

When you look at pass rushers like Clowney for example, while very disruptive, only had 3 sacks in 13 games last year. The price tag he wants is north of $20 Million per season. Clowney has a problem staying on the field and that is a major concern with that price tag.

Lorenzo Carter, Oshane Ximines and Fackrell is a decent group that needs to improve. Adding Golden might be a lateral move that would add depth but I think giving X Man and Carter those reps would be smarter.

A player like Zach Baun in round 2 would be a great addition. He is a do it all ER that played in a base 3-4 defense at Wisconsin. I would prefer Chaisson but would be happy with Baun.

Putting pressure on opposing QBs is the priority, Derek Brown
should be our first round pick.

And I think they'll bring in another vet before camp

Connor Barwin signing??

He was added as a role player, not some integral piece to man the strongest pass rush in the NFL.

Keep in mind, we also signed Golden who was one of the more improved pass rushers

Do you want to overpay him about $5 million over franchise tag for ER.
No you don’t.
It’s interesting to me how silent the market is around Golden. I have no idea what he and his agent are asking for but it obviously is too much.
Why overreact to ER market when it seems way overpriced.
Patience as we are in the 5th day of FA.

I'm sure there's interest in guys like Clowney --problem is they would likely have to break the bank and overpay and doubtful they are likely to go to such lengths.

Last year they address QB. Two years ago they addressed.. well er, RB. Odds are they'll address one of their remaining major needs --OLT-- in the draft. Edge will remain a priority for next year, in all likelihood.

I was vehemently opposed to the Giants signing a big-ticket pass-rusher in free agency, preferring to see them shore up ILB and their Secondary. The biggest surprise to me, so far, is that they haven't signed a Safety, but in fairness to them, the best ones were tagged early on.

A pass-rush can be manufactured, especially with better coaching and a better scheme, and hopefully we'll have both this year. Still, with the way the game is played now, a case can be made that your coverage is more important than your pass-rush, but that's a debate for another time.

While they may still sign a veteran to serve as a situational pass-rusher, or they may look for an Edge Rusher in the draft, I'd put less importance on drafting an ER and more on upgrading the O-Line and finding another weapon (or two) for Daniel Jones. If ER has to wait another year, so be it.

Golden, Griffen, or Jenkins so why should the Giants?

Wait until their price drops.

Now, if the Giants fail to reel in anymore pass rushers, I'll be disappointed. But they have time.

In comment 14843572 Brown Recluse said:

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Golden, Griffen, or Jenkins so why should the Giants? Wait until their price drops. Now, if the Giants fail to reel in anymore pass rushers, I'll be disappointed. But they have time.

I agree 100%. I also believe there's a dearth of pass rushers in this draft so many teams believe they can wait it out in the long run.

but it's been far too long since we drafted a an edge rusher in the 1st or 2nd round of the draft.

Whiffing on Flowers and/or passing on Tunsil really fucked this team up, because we wouldn't be so desperate for OL at this time. Even if we traded away Tunsil like Miami, the asset Houston received was eventually flipped for Tunsil anyway. So maybe we'd still need OL, but the resource could have been shifted to ER.

We NEeeed dose 3 sax he had last yeeR!

if he was available. I really believe that, great hard working kid, wanted to come here.

Once he and the others were tagged, it left really CLowney, trades and the draft.

We can't trade away picks unless they are late rounders.

So here we are. I don't think I can blame DG for not getting the guy this year but we'll see what happens in the draft.

Yup, they grow on trees and they are cheap.

Personally I think they should have 5 true stud pass rushers.

Good point! No one in the NFL wants or cares about pass rushers.

<Sarcastic mode off>

In comment 14843543 BillT said:

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The biggest surprise is the lack of OL signings. On the edge at least they signed Fackrell and have Ximines and Carter. If we had equivalent talent on the OL it would be a massive upgrade. Instead, not only don't even have 5 legitimate starters, we may have only 2 with Cam Flemming our only addition. Be thankful for for what we have on the egde.

I’m with you. We have holes in a lot of units. So the odds of fixing as many as we have in one offseason are very small. But we have a young QB who was a major investment from last year’s draft. So he and the offense need more efficiency and competency from the OL. That should be THE consensus priority for everyone.

We have a massive hole at C, a massive hole at RT and the LT, who seems to be the new Eli with all of the sympathy and excuses for his play, is arguably the worst ROI player in the NFL.

The solutions so far? Cam Fleming.

Meanwhile, for the same contract as Martinez, we could have signed Brian Bulaga. One of the game’s best tackles.

We need to draft at least four OLs in this draft. And maybe get lucky and hit on two...

because the Edge that are worth the coin aren't reaching UFA, or there's so much competition they're naming their price.

They signed Fackrell, they've got Carter and X to develop and deploy. They need to draft or sign one impact Edge to build around. We know it's not Golden. Clowney is not worth the price tag he's looking for. Jenkins is reportedly asking $13-14M per. No thanks. Who is left that is really promising?

Stay grounded in reality.

There isn’t much out there in FA and the draft.

and will likely $10M+ per. Another significant gamble on a 30+ player. Pass.

In comment 14843593 bw in dc said:

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Meanwhile, for the same contract as Martinez, we could have signed Brian Bulaga. One of the game’s best tackles. We need to draft at least four OLs in this draft. And maybe get lucky and hit on two...

If you feel Bulaga is one of the best tackles in the NFL, you have low standards. When he's not hurt he is ok. Better than what the Giants have, yes.

Conklin or Glenn, roll the dice. Bulaga, meh.

You still have to sign human beings. Not sure who we should have signed at this point who guarantees you an adequate return. Everybody needs pass rushers and offensive tackles. There just aren’t enough people that can make a difference in these positions. The ones that exist are locked up by their teams. And they get paid like QBs.

In comment 14843598 section125 said:

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In comment 14843593 bw in dc said: Quote: Meanwhile, for the same contract as Martinez, we could have signed Brian Bulaga. One of the game’s best tackles. We need to draft at least four OLs in this draft. And maybe get lucky and hit on two... If you feel Bulaga is one of the best tackles in the NFL, you have low standards. When he's not hurt he is ok. Better than what the Giants have, yes. Conklin or Glenn, roll the dice. Bulaga, meh.

I literally can’t stop laughing at that comment. One of the games best 😂

In comment 14843597 JonC said:

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and will likely $10M+ per. Another significant gamble on a 30+ player. Pass.

He played 30 games the last two years. 16 this year. He had a knee injury in 2017.

His contract with the Chargers is for three years, AAV $10M. If you get two years, it’s a bargain.

In comment 14843598 section125 said:

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If you feel Bulaga is one of the best tackles in the NFL, you have low standards. When he's not hurt he is ok. Better than what the Giants have, yes. Conklin or Glenn, roll the dice. Bulaga, meh.

I believe he was top tenish this year in pass blocking efficiency. That would be a massive upgrade over anyone on this roster.

In comment 14843615 bw in dc said:

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In comment 14843597 JonC said: Quote: and will likely $10M+ per. Another significant gamble on a 30+ player. Pass. He played 30 games the last two years. 16 this year. He had a knee injury in 2017. His contract with the Chargers is for three years, AAV $10M. If you get two years, it’s a bargain.

He also came out of games constantly with nagging injuries. There's always a knee, an arm, even fingers with Bulaga, missing numbers of plays.

. He's good coming off the edge. Not to mention Carter and Ximines being used properly in a better scheme could be much better. We've basically seen nothing from them but flashes because Bettcher was so clueless. They could be Pro-bowl caliber players for all we know.

just can't seem to figure out how to fix the OL and the pass rush. Of course they know how horrible the Giants are in both areas compared to other NFL teams. But they seem incapable of improving either area. This has been a problem for almost a decade. Nothing done so far addresses either problem in a meaningful way.

In comment 14843529 Rjanyg said:

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I’m a huge K’Lavon Chaisson fan..

I don't get the love. Admittedly, I've only watched a couple games including the one against Andrew Thomas who pretty much owned him - not being confrontational but please tell me what you see. thank you.

shopping hungry. I get that he represents instant upgrade, but the nagging injuries and age lower his value for me. Much prefer to spend a premium draft even out of need to procure a starter.

There's still an entire draft...with prospects available that are far superior to the overpaid, walking wounded and just plain average veterans sitting on the wire.

Calm down. FFS.

shouts at cloud

Bulaga just turned 31.

One struggles to do his job and is vastly overpaid.

One struggles with nagging injuries, but still plays at a fairly high level. And is cheaper than the player most insist we need to keep.

Finding it very hard to reconcile that logic...

In comment 14843529 Rjanyg said:

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In comment 14843522 JFIB said: Quote: That's why I'm hoping we trade out of the #4 and pick Chaisson and add an extra pick or two that upgrades the OL. I’m a huge K’Lavon Chaisson fan. Nobody talks about him. Bucky Brooks doesn’t even have him in his top 5 ER yet has him going to Atlanta in his mock. That is how under the radar he is. If we can trade back with LV or Jax I would love to get Chaisson and an OT in round 1.

Dave-Te' Thomas compares him to Vic Beasley, has him as his #5 ER

In comment 14843648 SirYesSir said:

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shouts at cloud

👆😂

Interested to understand how the claim the Giants have "the worst edge rush" on paper is measured.

they were shopping starving, hopefully they learned their lesson.

better about any signing we've made.

If Bulaga is one of the best at his position, Martinez is a HOF LB! And Fackrell is a top flight edge rusher. One of the best in the biz!!

is pretty bare. I don't blame DG for not wading in those waters. We still have the draft, let's see what happens there before calling the off-season a disappointment.

In comment 14843685 christian said:

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Interested to understand how the claim the Giants have "the worst edge rush" on paper is measured.

I think it was worded poorly. The point I think he was making is talent wise, it would appear we are bottom tiered in edge pass rush/pressure. But, then again, where aren’t we bottom tiered at any position grouping?

and the OL in free agency but there just weren't many options that would've been prudent for a team that isn't on the verge of competing for the super bowl.

As far as the OL, it's a really strong draft class and I expect them to use one of their first two picks on at least one guy. I would've liked for them to find a veteran Center although it was a weak and shallow FA class so average to below average guys were in demand.

remains that the OL is still incomplete, a mess, getting worse again (if you can possibly comprehend that) because Solder is in deterioration mode, pick any or all of the above.

Not investing in OL in this free agency could be a credible strategy based on what was avialble, but then the team really has to go all-in during this draft.

BPA Advocates - you may not like this view but the Giants board is probably going to be set up a bit different this year to align with an OL strategy in a deep draft.

And no, it won't hurt a 4-12 team.

Van Noy had some sacks, but their coverage was so good that the front could put pressure on. I think PG will employ a scheme that will put pressure on the QB without that star Edge. We still have guys that can create havoc and cause pressure.....ie. Williams, Ximines, Carter, Fackrell and evening Peppers, when blitzed. Can’t fill all the holes in this Swiss cheese roster in one year. I think they seriously need to get the Oline straightened out this year and then worry about a star Edge perhaps next year. Maybe we could grab one in the second round this year, but I’m of the firm belief that the talent on the Oline needs to be improved first and foremost.

It's about all guys up front doing their job creating the mismatch...why I think Golden had a strong year statistic wise and why l think holding on to Williams is smart.

A lot of it has to do with scheme though. Fans need to stop looking for "edge rushers"...a term that didn't even exist back in the day of Strahan and Osi. We can't bring in a Shaq Barret of Graham doesn't know how to use him.

Bay felt so highly of Bulaga they opted to let him hit FA and signed former Lion Rick Wagner (to a 2 year deal).

I'm not big on Fleming but I don't think he was signed to start.

It's pretty simple. The best edge rushers were tagged.

In comment 14843670 bw in dc said:

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Bulaga just turned 31. One struggles to do his job and is vastly overpaid. One struggles with nagging injuries, but still plays at a fairly high level. And is cheaper than the player most insist we need to keep. Finding it very hard to reconcile that logic...

Solder has stated that he is will to take a paycut and not a restructure I am sure the numbers are worked out ... the new deal just is not announced. So "cheaper" portion of or stance more than likely is not valid as this point ... but I feel you overall.

DG has been trying to build this defense strong up the middle and on the backend. The investment in Edge players has not been as expected, nor has talent availability ... and perhaps it is somewhat by design. Rams did the same thing, Ravens are doing it now and also have the Judon luxury, Patriots have been doing it and pouring the resources into the backend while manufacturing rush by pushing the pocket back rather than bending the edges.

It all leads to the philosophy of creating pressure in the face of the QB straight up the middle to combat a quick release of the football, to force option plays outside, and to have the backend athletes to chase down the ball. Food for thought. We'd still keep looking for the impact Edge player. But, you want a Mack not a Clowney.

and extra DB packages with speed at LB to provide sideline to sideline range, and the ability to run downfield with receivers.

In comment 14843885 MotownGIANTS said:

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In comment 14843670 bw in dc said: Quote: Bulaga just turned 31. One struggles to do his job and is vastly overpaid. One struggles with nagging injuries, but still plays at a fairly high level. And is cheaper than the player most insist we need to keep. Finding it very hard to reconcile that logic... Solder has stated that he is will to take a paycut and not a restructure I am sure the numbers are worked out ... the new deal just is not announced. So "cheaper" portion of or stance more than likely is not valid as this point ... but I feel you overall.

That's possibly true. So we'll see on that part.

Still, from a production standpoint, Bulaga was one of the most dependable RTs in the NFL last year. Depending on the sources you use, he was one of the top run blocking RTs in the game. His pass protection, again depending on the source, is interesting.

PFF said he was one of the top ranked RT pass blocker during the second half of 2019. They gave him a 97.1 pass blocking efficiency rating. Which placed him 6th in the league.

For me, BB was a very good short term solution. A 3 year deal at only $10AAV. Seems a much wiser investment than the 4 yrs/$62M for our older LT who continues to leak more and more oil...

Fackrell, Carter & Ximines? Is this the XFL? I’m not the GM. Find a way. For a team that claims to be old school OLine and DLine dominance, to trot out a bad OLine and pass rush for years on end is ridiculous. Those 3 are not going to get it done.

The guys who get paid to figure it out need to figure it out. Don’t want to watch another year of zero pass rush, and rolling my eyes a bit as we prioritize the secondary and RB instead of OL and pass rush.

...seems to me that if 2 things are true:
1) The Giants have interest in Ngakoue and the price it would take to sign him.
2)The Jags are not happy with their QB situation...

...that the Giants are the best possible place to ship him.

Straight up: #4 for #9 and Ngakoue.

They rid themselves of a player that they would only be paying huge $ to for one year, a year where they are not contending.


Depending on when Brown is drafted, possible 3 of the OTs are still there at 9.

In comment 14844336 Brown_Hornet said:

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...seems to me that if 2 things are true: 1) The Giants have interest in Ngakoue and the price it would take to sign him. 2)The Jags are not happy with their QB situation... ...that the Giants are the best possible place to ship him. Straight up: #4 for #9 and Ngakoue.

I don't think that would be enough from our end. So throw in LW and I pull that trigger faster than a Dave Gettleman first round draft card.

...they get the QB that they covet (outside of the 1st 2) and it costs them what any other offer they currently have for Ngakoue is...and are any of those offers enough to move from 9 to 4?

So, the alternative is to trade with someone and hope that they gain enough to send the 9 and the newly acquired draft cap to the Giants for #4.

Why wait...just cut the deal.

In comment 14844222 mittenedman said:

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Fackrell, Carter & Ximines? Is this the XFL? I’m not the GM. Find a way. For a team that claims to be old school OLine and DLine dominance, to trot out a bad OLine and pass rush for years on end is ridiculous. Those 3 are not going to get it done. The guys who get paid to figure it out need to figure it out. Don’t want to watch another year of zero pass rush, and rolling my eyes a bit as we prioritize the secondary and RB instead of OL and pass rush.

Why do feel the Giants pass rush was so bad?

are like toilet paper right now. Not a lot out there and way overpriced.

In comment 14844354 christian said:

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In comment 14844222 mittenedman said: Quote: Fackrell, Carter & Ximines? Is this the XFL? I’m not the GM. Find a way. For a team that claims to be old school OLine and DLine dominance, to trot out a bad OLine and pass rush for years on end is ridiculous. Those 3 are not going to get it done. The guys who get paid to figure it out need to figure it out. Don’t want to watch another year of zero pass rush, and rolling my eyes a bit as we prioritize the secondary and RB instead of OL and pass rush. Why do feel the Giants pass rush was so bad?

Actually let me phrase this another way -- by what measurement are you grading the pass rush as "zero" and "bad."

In comment 14844357 Pete in MD said:

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are like toilet paper right now. Not a lot out there and way overpriced.

Had to chuckle, Im in CT and we are starting to see limited toilet paper again

it's that surprising considering the cost and that most of that talent was already locked down or costs a lot of draft capital to acquire.

I think Golden is a little bit underrated here, him paired with another good ER is an ideal situation to have. If they don't get one in the draft this year I can see that being a big target for next year. My wild guess is that they want to bolster the o-line in the draft more-so this year and pick up some more defensive pieces later in the draft if there's a highly rated player there.

Though I wouldn't be upset if they took Simmons if he's sitting there at 4 and they feel he'd be a good fit for what they're planning on defense.

It's the same as in the Draft you don't pay guys more than their worth out of need just as you don't Draft positions out of need. You fuck yourself in the long run.

Van Noy is about the only one whose deal seemed reasonable and we'll never know if we made a play for him and lost out.

Ximines has a chance to have some impact as does Fackrell.

Now we look to the draft.

think we'll use multiple day three picks on edge rushers.