board is to fix the OL. I truly believe that is the direction we go not because of need but because the value is there too. One reason I really like Okudah is because I believe he can play the slot and he'd be an all pro there imo. In base packages I'd have him lined up outside but in sub packages I think he can really kill it there.
see in Baker. If Judge feels Baker will do what he was supposed to do, then yes Okudah is likely off the board. But never say never.
Perhaps a switch to more man to man, press helps Baker.
I still think he will be considered depending on what happens before them. I have a feeling they will trade back if they can get a pick or two for a short move back and then OT is the pick. If they cannot move back, and Simmons is there it becomes Simmons vs OT..
RE: I think the Slay trade took Okudah off the board
Absolutely. No way Detroit lets Slay go unless they have a backup plan. And the only backup plan that makes even a little sense is that they intend to draft Okudah. If I'm correct, that puts the Giants in the catbird seat as teams line up to jump over Miami and hopefully a bidding war commences for our no.4 spot
and the OT available, it makes Okudah less likely. I just prefer they slide down a few slots, pick up an extra #2 and still get their OT target. This second round crop is looking strong on paper.
that this particular offseason aligned itself best to adding pieces to the Defense via Free Agency, and then use deep Draft at a few positions (OT, WR) to add to the Offense.
Seems like Giants indeed have taken to that strategy in the former with additions to CB and LB. And it's only logical to focus on OT early in draft since the talent is there this year, and the team has to invest in its future with solid tackles.
Both of those things - signing Bradberry and Detroit wanting to
But it would be a bad sign if we feel we still need more talent in the secondary after all the draft capitol spent + Bradbury
I agree, but if they got him think about how amazing our corners could be. If Okudah is the goods, pair him with Bradbury and you have two potential shut down corners. You can possibly get away with not having great pass rushers with a duo like that.
it would be ideal for us to trade with Miami or the Chargers and get a 2nd round pick, (or even better a 2 and a 3) added to our war chest, and take one of the OL men
it would be ideal for us to trade with Miami or the Chargers and get a 2nd round pick, (or even better a 2 and a 3) added to our war chest, and take one of the OL men
me too. They now have alot of draft and $$ capital invested at CB. Time to focus on the OL.
I like the Bradberry signing but Okudah is a special talent. Bradberry could be gone in 3 years.
That was my initial thought, especially with a new coaching staff in place. As unlikely as it seems, the corners on the team are not Judge's players. OT and/or a trade back seems like the most logical choice, but if we are talking about the long game and the best player available, I just don't know.
I hope not. He’s probably the 3rd best player in this draft.
But it would be a bad sign if we feel we still need more talent in the secondary after all the draft capitol spent + Bradbury
I agree, but if they got him think about how amazing our corners could be. If Okudah is the goods, pair him with Bradbury and you have two potential shut down corners. You can possibly get away with not having great pass rushers with a duo like that.
Would make me feel very nervous about the guy putting together the team.
If they can’t rely on Baker after trading back into the first for him, how can we feel good about his ability to build out the rest of the roster.
And I am an Okudah guy. They know of 2-3 players that will be off the board before their 4th pick, they most likely came into this offseason with a plan that involved that 4th pick. There's probably a Plan A and Plan B in place right now in round 1. Regardless of history, I think DG will try to trade down this year, however I'm not so sure there will be a market there.
I think OT makes the most sense. But it depends on how they feel about Okudah. If he is clearly in a different class than the OTs I believe they would take him. You get better by working with better talent. While we have serious issues you cant pass up better talent to fill needs, that leads to mediocre. If we were an OT away from winning you could take that chance but we are not.
RE: Since we have not signed an OL and there is nothing in FA
I think OT makes the most sense. But it depends on how they feel about Okudah. If he is clearly in a different class than the OTs I believe they would take him. You get better by working with better talent. While we have serious issues you cant pass up better talent to fill needs, that leads to mediocre. If we were an OT away from winning you could take that chance but we are not.
Are we a CB away from winning? Is a CB going to help protect Daniel Jones and clear some paths for Saquon Barkley?
We are not drafting a CB at four. Try to accept that. Our OL is a GLARING need in a OL rich draft. If we don't get stronger at the LOS we will be picking top five forever. CB or RB should NEVER even be considered in top five picks.
They invested so many assets already into the CB position. $15 million a year for Bradberry, a 1st round pick for Baker, a 3rd round pick for Beal, a 6th for Ballentine. With the state of the OL I just can’t see how they can justify using a top 5 pick out he position as well. Now if they traded down and he was somehow still on the board then I think that’s possible but I think the pick will be an OT.
decreased the probability of drafting Okudah. The real ease of Slay made the staging of Okudah much more improbable. I really thing it’s a trade down with either Miami or LA, taking an OT or Simmons. The LB position still remains an issue, regarding a coverage type LB. I will say this, though. I think it is an OT, because DG may never have an great opportunity to get a franchise OT after this year through the draft. To me, it seems pretty much likely.
NYG is drafting top 10 again next year. OL and pass rush are not improved, so far. It might wind up being how we obtain the best available OT now, and Edge a year from now, for example.
NYG is drafting top 10 again next year. OL and pass rush are not improved, so far. It might wind up being how we obtain the best available OT now, and Edge a year from now, for example.
that's a cheerful thought :-(. God I hope you're wrong for once.
NYG is drafting top 10 again next year. OL and pass rush are not improved, so far. It might wind up being how we obtain the best available OT now, and Edge a year from now, for example.
I don’t think there is a question we’re gonna be top 10 next year. OT and edge figure to be still among our top needs. As I always do, I looked ahead to the top 2021 prospects. There’s a monster OT from Oregon who is labeled “can’t miss”. As for edge? There is a converted WR to edge rusher from Miami and then the pickings are slim there after.
The really fun thing about not aligning our Draft strategy
NYG is drafting top 10 again next year. OL and pass rush are not improved, so far. It might wind up being how we obtain the best available OT now, and Edge a year from now, for example.
that's a cheerful thought :-(. God I hope you're wrong for once.
We play a lot of teams next year with better rosters than us. It’s not shaping up as a walk in the park.
Arizona, Tampa, Philly, Dallas, SF, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Rams, and Seattle all have better rosters today and figure to do so upon season start. I’m not saying we actually lose them all, but that’s potentially 12 losses right there.
NYG is drafting top 10 again next year. OL and pass rush are not improved, so far. It might wind up being how we obtain the best available OT now, and Edge a year from now, for example.
I don't know, I'll be glass half full. If we hit on an offensive lineman, and hit on a few other picks, we will see if Judge is an upgrade over Schurmur.
NYG is drafting top 10 again next year. OL and pass rush are not improved, so far. It might wind up being how we obtain the best available OT now, and Edge a year from now, for example.
that's a cheerful thought :-(. God I hope you're wrong for once.
I’d be surprised if the Giants AREN’T picking in the top 10 next year. We have an undertalented, young roster adapting to a very new system with new coaches. September and October will be a trainwreck, guys. Just stay strong.
I’d be surprised if the Giants AREN’T picking in the top 10 next year. We have an undertalented, young roster adapting to a very new system with new coaches. September and October will be a trainwreck, guys. Just stay strong.
Yep. No need to concern conversation with where will be picking in 2021. The team has to start being more credible on way too many fronts first.
They invested so many assets already into the CB position. $15 million a year for Bradberry, a 1st round pick for Baker, a 3rd round pick for Beal, a 6th for Ballentine. With the state of the OL I just can’t see how they can justify using a top 5 pick out he position as well. Now if they traded down and he was somehow still on the board then I think that’s possible but I think the pick will be an OT.
Signing of Bradberry likely an indicator Giants aren't super high on Okudah.
Giants are going to like have a top 10 pick next year. Can’t see them as a playoff threat for next year. Take the OT this year an go after the ER next year. DG may never have a shot at a talented OT after this year’s draft. This team is being built for the long run. I think this is a good strategy moving forward.
DG has been trying to build this defense strong up the middle and on the backend. The investment in Edge players has not been as expected, and perhaps it is somewhat by design. Rams did the same thing, Ravens are doing it now and also have Judon, Patriots have been doing it and pouring the resources into the backend while manufacturing rush by pushing the pocket back rather than bending the edges.
Build the defense out, plug in the rush talent when it presents itself
For top 10 also next yr
I would have no issues going OT and C first two rds this yr
( with hopefully an xtra #2 to pick a wr or Er) and then go stud OT
Again next yr
You have saquon, his shelf life probably 5 more top yrs
Give him a talented mauling line. Don’t fuck around.
Does the Bradberry signing take Okudah off the board?
That combined with the Lions shedding Slay means a likelihood we aren't drafting Okudah. Which is good for me because I have a slightly lower grade on Okudah than some.
As of now we should be taking Jedrick Wills IF we stay at #4. But as numerous others have suggested our best scenario may be a short trade down to add a couple of picks and THEN taking an OT.
Either way it has to be an OT in Round 1 for three reasons:
1- Jedrick Wills is a Top 5 prospect all day long so if we take him at #4 we aren't leaving 'talent' on the board. Same thing applies if we trade down. There are two other Top 10 OT's available.
2- it's our greatest need at a critical position on the roster and will have a domino effect throughout the offense. Especially for our two recent Top 6 picks Jones and Barkley.
3- we didn't significantly improve the talent at OT during Free Agency.
4 - We don't have a starting Right Tackle on roster
5 - Solder is breaking down at Left Tackle
6 - Even if Solder gets thru one more season, his a prime candidate to cut in 2021 based on his cap savings
7 - Klaatu and I said so
This OL group are all 2nd round talent at the most.
Per spotrac (link below) NE spends 26% of their cap dollars on their secondary and that's the 2nd most in the NFL - more than $54m total. With Bradberry the Giants have half of that amount in our secondary with $26m (13.4%).
Also taking a wider view of the top 5 teams in 2019 other than the Pats you see Patrick Graham's Dolphins coached by former Pats DC Brian Flores and Mike Vrabel's Tennessee Titans. Also 4 of the 6 were playoff teams and among the best defenses in football.
1. Baltimore - 33.2%
3. Miami - 23.9% (a little misleading bc $40m of their secondary was on injured reserve)
4. Minnesota - 21.8%
5. Chicago - 19.8%
6. Tennessee - 17.6%
So net-net, if Judge buys into what seems to be Belichek's current theory of resource allocation, I don't think there's a such thing as "already enough resources invested in the secondary". Also maybe we should be keeping an eye on Logan Ryan and some of the other DB's still out there in FA. NE positional spending - ( New Window )
btw everything I posted may also dictate Okudah to DET (Patricia)
and reduce the chance that they will risk trading back behind us if they really think highly of him knowing Judge/Graham may feel the exact same way.
Then if the draft goes:
1. Burrow
2. Young
3. Okudah
As is the current conventional wisdom, boy would that be great for us with CAR, LAC, and MIA potentially jockeying to move up for a QB.
Extra picks plus Simmons or our top OT would be a coup. NE's second largest position group spend is OL and Simmons obviously is in large part a coverage player - so I could really see that decision going either way.
Per spotrac (link below) NE spends 26% of their cap dollars on their secondary and that's the 2nd most in the NFL - more than $54m total. With Bradberry the Giants have half of that amount in our secondary with $26m (13.4%).
Also taking a wider view of the top 5 teams in 2019 other than the Pats you see Patrick Graham's Dolphins coached by former Pats DC Brian Flores and Mike Vrabel's Tennessee Titans. Also 4 of the 6 were playoff teams and among the best defenses in football.
1. Baltimore - 33.2%
3. Miami - 23.9% (a little misleading bc $40m of their secondary was on injured reserve)
4. Minnesota - 21.8%
5. Chicago - 19.8%
6. Tennessee - 17.6%
So net-net, if Judge buys into what seems to be Belichek's current theory of resource allocation, I don't think there's a such thing as "already enough resources invested in the secondary". Also maybe we should be keeping an eye on Logan Ryan and some of the other DB's still out there in FA. NE positional spending - ( New Window )
Good post.
The spread between Pats and Giants is as large as it is because they have so many veterans and we do not. However, your point is still valid that we are on the very low end.
We should give somebody back there a raise.
It def saves $ that all nyg DB's except Bradberry are on rookie deals
but we could also look at it through the lens of draft capital. Obviously this misses a lot of context in terms of how the players actually performed once in the NFL and since some were drafted on other teams and acquired as FA, but it does show the general level of resource it would have taken to source a secondary like theirs (whether on rookie deals or 2nd contracts) - plus the need to do well scouting/developing late rounders or UDFAs.
Peppers 1st (#25)
Baker 1st (#30)
Bradberry 2nd
Beal a 3rd
Ballentine a 5th
Love a 4th
Pats:
Gilmore 1st (#10)
D. McCourty 1st (#27)
Chung 2nd
Joejuan Williams 2nd
Obi Melifonwu 2nd
T. Brooks 3rd
J. McCourty 6th
JC Jackson UDFA
Jon Jones UDFA
So similar conclusion as the other post, if Judge believes in DB's the way Belichek does, there are likely some open needs he'd like to fill (deep coverage safety, slot) - and ideally at least 1 of those would be filled by a day 1 or day 2 level talent. A signing like Logan Ryan would be a great fit, though he supposedly holding out for a contract at $10m AAV.
Discussed this a bit last week. Belichick clearly loves
Need to fix the OL. I would love to have Okudah, but cannot see them pulling the trigger when they have alot of holes to fill. They need to come out of the draft with 2 OT's and a C.
1. Burrows / 1. Young / 3. Okudah
At which point I hope we either take Simmons or trade back a few and take the best OT on the board while adding another premium pick.
Perhaps a switch to more man to man, press helps Baker.
I still think he will be considered depending on what happens before them. I have a feeling they will trade back if they can get a pick or two for a short move back and then OT is the pick. If they cannot move back, and Simmons is there it becomes Simmons vs OT..
Absolutely. No way Detroit lets Slay go unless they have a backup plan. And the only backup plan that makes even a little sense is that they intend to draft Okudah. If I'm correct, that puts the Giants in the catbird seat as teams line up to jump over Miami and hopefully a bidding war commences for our no.4 spot
Seems like Giants indeed have taken to that strategy in the former with additions to CB and LB. And it's only logical to focus on OT early in draft since the talent is there this year, and the team has to invest in its future with solid tackles.
I agree, but if they got him think about how amazing our corners could be. If Okudah is the goods, pair him with Bradbury and you have two potential shut down corners. You can possibly get away with not having great pass rushers with a duo like that.
I like the Bradberry signing but Okudah is a special talent. Bradberry could be gone in 3 years.
me too. They now have alot of draft and $$ capital invested at CB. Time to focus on the OL.
Don't make me go all Liam Neeson on your monkey ass.
I like the Bradberry signing but Okudah is a special talent. Bradberry could be gone in 3 years.
That was my initial thought, especially with a new coaching staff in place. As unlikely as it seems, the corners on the team are not Judge's players. OT and/or a trade back seems like the most logical choice, but if we are talking about the long game and the best player available, I just don't know.
Put me in the camp of a slight trade back and pick the best available OT (or Simmons, if he's there).
Quote:
But it would be a bad sign if we feel we still need more talent in the secondary after all the draft capitol spent + Bradbury
I agree, but if they got him think about how amazing our corners could be. If Okudah is the goods, pair him with Bradbury and you have two potential shut down corners. You can possibly get away with not having great pass rushers with a duo like that.
Would make me feel very nervous about the guy putting together the team.
If they can’t rely on Baker after trading back into the first for him, how can we feel good about his ability to build out the rest of the roster.
Are we a CB away from winning? Is a CB going to help protect Daniel Jones and clear some paths for Saquon Barkley?
Yeah, maybe a QB as well....
Old Platoon Sergeant used to use that one, as in, "Get your monkey asses in gear!"
It might just be worth accepting this GM really values the secondary.
Quote:
and grab one of the top wide receivers as well.
Yeah, maybe a QB as well....
Or possibly even RB.
Quote:
.
Old Platoon Sergeant used to use that one, as in, "Get your monkey asses in gear!"
Ok, I will try Sarge.
As to my monkey ass comment, I was just recalling it from an earlier thread as to what some guys were suggesting to do at #4 instead of OT.
that's a cheerful thought :-(. God I hope you're wrong for once.
I don’t think there is a question we’re gonna be top 10 next year. OT and edge figure to be still among our top needs. As I always do, I looked ahead to the top 2021 prospects. There’s a monster OT from Oregon who is labeled “can’t miss”. As for edge? There is a converted WR to edge rusher from Miami and then the pickings are slim there after.
That is how you get guys like Flowers and Solder.
Groundhog Day.
Quote:
NYG is drafting top 10 again next year. OL and pass rush are not improved, so far. It might wind up being how we obtain the best available OT now, and Edge a year from now, for example.
that's a cheerful thought :-(. God I hope you're wrong for once.
We play a lot of teams next year with better rosters than us. It’s not shaping up as a walk in the park.
Arizona, Tampa, Philly, Dallas, SF, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Rams, and Seattle all have better rosters today and figure to do so upon season start. I’m not saying we actually lose them all, but that’s potentially 12 losses right there.
I don't know, I'll be glass half full. If we hit on an offensive lineman, and hit on a few other picks, we will see if Judge is an upgrade over Schurmur.
Old Platoon Sergeant used to use that one, as in, "Get your monkey asses in gear!"
Ok, I will try Sarge.
As to my monkey ass comment, I was just recalling it from an earlier thread as to what some guys were suggesting to do at #4 instead of OT.
Yeah, I knew you weren't being serious.
Did you think I was really going to look for you, find you, and kill you?
Quote:
NYG is drafting top 10 again next year. OL and pass rush are not improved, so far. It might wind up being how we obtain the best available OT now, and Edge a year from now, for example.
that's a cheerful thought :-(. God I hope you're wrong for once.
Yeah, I knew you weren't being serious.
Did you think I was really going to look for you, find you, and kill you?
Or Foreskins f*ck sh*t up.
I’d be surprised if the Giants AREN’T picking in the top 10 next year. We have an undertalented, young roster adapting to a very new system with new coaches. September and October will be a trainwreck, guys. Just stay strong.
Yep. No need to concern conversation with where will be picking in 2021. The team has to start being more credible on way too many fronts first.
Signing of Bradberry likely an indicator Giants aren't super high on Okudah.
Yeah, I knew you weren't being serious.
Did you think I was really going to look for you, find you, and kill you?
No, I didn't think so. But some posters do indeed go a little postal from time to time.
did u see what i did there?
Quote:
Yeah, I knew you weren't being serious.
Did you think I was really going to look for you, find you, and kill you?
No, I didn't think so. But some posters do indeed go a little postal from time to time.
did u see what i did there?
Yes, and it gets my stamp of approval.
Agreed. I would also prefer a trade down, but I'm beginning to think fans value Tua and Herbert more than the teams.
I don't think they would have went in with a rookie and a 2nd year guy starting.
I would have no issues going OT and C first two rds this yr
( with hopefully an xtra #2 to pick a wr or Er) and then go stud OT
Again next yr
You have saquon, his shelf life probably 5 more top yrs
Give him a talented mauling line. Don’t fuck around.
As of now we should be taking Jedrick Wills IF we stay at #4. But as numerous others have suggested our best scenario may be a short trade down to add a couple of picks and THEN taking an OT.
Either way it has to be an OT in Round 1 for three reasons:
1- Jedrick Wills is a Top 5 prospect all day long so if we take him at #4 we aren't leaving 'talent' on the board. Same thing applies if we trade down. There are two other Top 10 OT's available.
2- it's our greatest need at a critical position on the roster and will have a domino effect throughout the offense. Especially for our two recent Top 6 picks Jones and Barkley.
3- we didn't significantly improve the talent at OT during Free Agency.
6 - Even if Solder gets thru one more season, his a prime candidate to cut in 2021 based on his cap savings
7 - Klaatu and I said so
He was proud of manning up against Julio, Michael Thomas and Mike Evans...and look forward to A. Cooper and the others
I still hope we trade back a couple of picks & get some more draft picks. DG has never traded back though so who knows?
CB Jones - 6m aav
CB McCourtney - 6m aav
CB Bethel - 2m aav
CB Joejuan Williams - 2019 2nd round pick
CB JC Jackson - UDFA
FS McCourtney - 12m aav
FS Phillips - 3m aav
SS Chung - 6m aav
Per spotrac (link below) NE spends 26% of their cap dollars on their secondary and that's the 2nd most in the NFL - more than $54m total. With Bradberry the Giants have half of that amount in our secondary with $26m (13.4%).
Also taking a wider view of the top 5 teams in 2019 other than the Pats you see Patrick Graham's Dolphins coached by former Pats DC Brian Flores and Mike Vrabel's Tennessee Titans. Also 4 of the 6 were playoff teams and among the best defenses in football.
1. Baltimore - 33.2%
3. Miami - 23.9% (a little misleading bc $40m of their secondary was on injured reserve)
4. Minnesota - 21.8%
5. Chicago - 19.8%
6. Tennessee - 17.6%
So net-net, if Judge buys into what seems to be Belichek's current theory of resource allocation, I don't think there's a such thing as "already enough resources invested in the secondary". Also maybe we should be keeping an eye on Logan Ryan and some of the other DB's still out there in FA.
NE positional spending - ( New Window )
Then if the draft goes:
1. Burrow
2. Young
3. Okudah
As is the current conventional wisdom, boy would that be great for us with CAR, LAC, and MIA potentially jockeying to move up for a QB.
Extra picks plus Simmons or our top OT would be a coup. NE's second largest position group spend is OL and Simmons obviously is in large part a coverage player - so I could really see that decision going either way.
It's really very obvious. You'd be hard pressed to find a single knowledgeable opinion that thinks otherwise. Of course that doesn't include you.
If the opportunity arises.
CB Jones - 6m aav
CB McCourtney - 6m aav
CB Bethel - 2m aav
CB Joejuan Williams - 2019 2nd round pick
CB JC Jackson - UDFA
FS McCourtney - 12m aav
FS Phillips - 3m aav
SS Chung - 6m aav
Per spotrac (link below) NE spends 26% of their cap dollars on their secondary and that's the 2nd most in the NFL - more than $54m total. With Bradberry the Giants have half of that amount in our secondary with $26m (13.4%).
Also taking a wider view of the top 5 teams in 2019 other than the Pats you see Patrick Graham's Dolphins coached by former Pats DC Brian Flores and Mike Vrabel's Tennessee Titans. Also 4 of the 6 were playoff teams and among the best defenses in football.
1. Baltimore - 33.2%
3. Miami - 23.9% (a little misleading bc $40m of their secondary was on injured reserve)
4. Minnesota - 21.8%
5. Chicago - 19.8%
6. Tennessee - 17.6%
So net-net, if Judge buys into what seems to be Belichek's current theory of resource allocation, I don't think there's a such thing as "already enough resources invested in the secondary". Also maybe we should be keeping an eye on Logan Ryan and some of the other DB's still out there in FA. NE positional spending - ( New Window )
Good post.
The spread between Pats and Giants is as large as it is because they have so many veterans and we do not. However, your point is still valid that we are on the very low end.
We should give somebody back there a raise.
Peppers 1st (#25)
Baker 1st (#30)
Bradberry 2nd
Beal a 3rd
Ballentine a 5th
Love a 4th
Pats:
Gilmore 1st (#10)
D. McCourty 1st (#27)
Chung 2nd
Joejuan Williams 2nd
Obi Melifonwu 2nd
T. Brooks 3rd
J. McCourty 6th
JC Jackson UDFA
Jon Jones UDFA
So similar conclusion as the other post, if Judge believes in DB's the way Belichek does, there are likely some open needs he'd like to fill (deep coverage safety, slot) - and ideally at least 1 of those would be filled by a day 1 or day 2 level talent. A signing like Logan Ryan would be a great fit, though he supposedly holding out for a contract at $10m AAV.
Dollars do not heavily flow to interior Dlineman.