Schneier: For the first time since ‘08, they have a plan

Dawg thread

move that refutes "the plan" is Leonard Williams.

Maybe since that was before Judge it was different, but trading a 3rd and 5th for a player heading to FA at a position with many players expected to be available doesn't support the rest of it.

plain and simple. Giants have been suffering the consequences of several years of bad drafts that occurred under Jerry Reese's watch.

his podcast, Big Blue Banter. Very in depth football talk without a lot of the fluff.

I largely agree with his take, the short front loaded contracts are smart from the Giants.

Dont mortgage the future, and field a competitive team while you continue to build through the draft.

I'm struggling to see the difference between last off season and this off season.

but we better have a really good draft to compliment how FA was handled.

The OL needs some serious love or we waste another yr of Barkley also we can help Jones a great deal with the fumbling if he is not harassed right after receiving the ball.

People tried to sell this fan base that Gettleman had a plan in year 1: Retooling and one more run with Eli. And then he allegedly had a plan in year 2: Winning while rebuilding.

Why should we believe this supposed plan will work out any better than the previous two?

In comment 14843713 bLiTz 2k said:

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his podcast, Big Blue Banter. Very in depth football talk without a lot of the fluff. I largely agree with his take, the short front loaded contracts are smart from the Giants. Dont mortgage the future, and field a competitive team while you continue to build through the draft.

I like the front loading as well.

In comment 14843714 christian said:

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I'm struggling to see the difference between last off season and this off season.

For starters, new staff, former players of this new staff, front loaded contracts. Draft, TBD

I think great players can expedite the process and I do think the corner is a win now and later move, but I won't complain with the moves thus far. Build through the draft. Fortify through FA and when the time is right, swing for the fences like we did in the mid to late 2000s.

I still say 2016 wasn't a bad plan as far as player personnel moves were concerned. Vernon was a risk, but they have recovered from that. It was the coaching moves that fucked things short and long term. If judge is the goods, we will be just fine.

In comment 14843711 pjcas18 said:

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move that refutes "the plan" is Leonard Williams. Maybe since that was before Judge it was different, but trading a 3rd and 5th for a player heading to FA at a position with many players expected to be available doesn't support the rest of it.

If Williams has a 5 year run here of good play trading the mid round picks will have been worth it. They converted 2 picks into a known commodity. Nothing wrong with that, especially when you factor in how young and raw the rest of the defense was prior to that move.

In comment 14843714 christian said:

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I'm struggling to see the difference between last off season and this off season.

all short term (3 year) contracts, and contracts are front loaded, with no signing bonuses making separation easier if they don't pan out, or just by the end of the contract.

People should look into his stuff a little more.

They're targeting players in their respective primes at key positions, and many are known to them up close. There just hasn't been the big fish available to reel in at Edge or OT.

If they find their OT at #4, a promising Edge at #36, a WR or FS after that, then a plan could come into focus more easily.

but 2019? That was a full fledged rebuilding effort if there ever was one. 2018 looks like they wanted to take one last stab at things, albeit they didn't really mortgage any future assets to do so, they signed a lot of vets and went with Eli for one more go. Didn't work. They realized that and pivoted to a more long term approach last spring. I think that much is evident based on the moves to deal away all the vets for future picks and cap space.

If the plan is bad? I don't see how this should ease anybody's worries.

Clearly Gettleman's plans in previous years haven't worked out.

Clearly the plan from a team building perspective is still stopping the run first (Martinez, Williams, Mayo signings), something that hasn't been working for the Giants defense as a whole for Gettleman's entire tenure so far.

Clearly the plan is still not going all out on putting together a great run blocking O-line. If the plan is for rookies to come in and fix this, how are they not "drafting for need"?

Clearly there is still no room for coverage linebackers or safeties in this plan. An area in which the Giants have been abysmal for forever.

My god Twitter will be the end of us.

In comment 14843712 nyjuggernaut2 said:

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plain and simple. Giants have been suffering the consequences of several years of bad drafts that occurred under Jerry Reese's watch.

Absolutely, all you have to do is look at the rosters of the Patriots, Ravens, Packers, Steelers, Cowboys, Eagles, and Seahawks for proof. All those teams have built through the draft with some wise FA additions sprinkled in.

This brings us to Jerry Reese’s biggest mistake, hiring Marc Ross as the director of college scouting. The 2007 team received important contributions all season from that draft class. Without them they wouldn’t have even made the playoffs.

Gettleman's Giants have just drafted in the top 8 for the 10th year in a row.

"This is all Reese's fault" BBI-users whisper, rocking back and forth, crying themselves to sleep each night.

The past couple of offseasons have shown a total lack of a plan. Hopefully they have actually turned a corner with Judge n co. now guiding things.

What still kills me is paying Eli to stay on last year. We really could have used that rollover cap space this year or next. Some posters just didn’t get that.

In comment 14843719 Big Blue '56 said:

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In comment 14843714 christian said: Quote: I'm struggling to see the difference between last off season and this off season. For starters, new staff, former players of this new staff, front loaded contracts. Draft, TBD

Last offseason the Giants signed 1 UFA contract with any money guaranteed after year 1.

They also signed 4 ex AZ Cardinals and an ex-Panther.

I'm not knocking the approach. But Gettleman was very conservative last year, didn't make many long-term commitments and acquired players the staff with largely familiar with.

Sounds pretty much like this year.

You make good points but the team was cap constrained last year. This year’s approach is being executed from a place with some room to maneuver.

In comment 14843772 cosmicj said:

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You make good points but the team was cap constrained last year. This year’s approach is being executed from a place with some room to maneuver.

So maybe it's fair to state Gettleman is employing much the same strategy, but is just spending more money?

Again, I'm not knocking the plan.

I thought what he did in 2018 was deplorable. I hated every move he made and wasn't surprised nearly all of them failed.

What's he's done the last 2 years has been much better. The only move I disagree with is Tate. That had some 2018 stink to it. I hope he avoids that this year.

like a good plan to me. Bradberry was the prize of FA but he costs more than what we were paying Jenkins for a similar level player. I would have rather gone for Littleton and paid a little more than Martinez. Maybe he didnt want to come here but I read his price was too high, he only got $2 mil more a year than Martinez. Fackerell was a good signing but he replaces Golden.

We had $80 mil and didnt improve the roster from last year.

Fackerell = Golden
LW = LW
Martinez = Golden
Toil?? TE = Ellison
Bradberry = Jenkins

A little younger but not better. None of these players seem to be the type to make others around them better. We also have major holes at C & RT on O and FS on D. Replacing average with average doesnt improve the team, it just pushes the rebuild further. Other teams find a way to get top talent where we are wading in the water.

He’s done too much damage for too long. Now all of the sudden he understands building through the draft? This isn’t some kind of radical new NFL philosophy, building through the draft has been the known way to success for a very long time.

And as Schneier says, Getty’s problem is that he lacks patience. I’d argue that he is impulsive and arrogant as well, which I write not to disparage Getty but that these are the character flaws that lead to his mistakes. I don’t think Getty has changed and I don’t think the course of the Giants has either. It still all comes down to DJ and now, the Judge.

We don’t know how Judge or Jones will work out. If they are great - then that’s great and the future is bright. Getty will look good! But I don’t think the FA signings from the past days will mean much one way or another.

Martinez = Ogletree not Golden

In comment 14843806 Rudy5757 said:

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like a good plan to me. Bradberry was the prize of FA but he costs more than what we were paying Jenkins for a similar level player. I would have rather gone for Littleton and paid a little more than Martinez. Maybe he didnt want to come here but I read his price was too high, he only got $2 mil more a year than Martinez. Fackerell was a good signing but he replaces Golden. We had $80 mil and didnt improve the roster from last year. Fackerell = Golden LW = LW Martinez = Golden Toil?? TE = Ellison Bradberry = Jenkins A little younger but not better. None of these players seem to be the type to make others around them better. We also have major holes at C & RT on O and FS on D. Replacing average with average doesnt improve the team, it just pushes the rebuild further. Other teams find a way to get top talent where we are wading in the water.

Bradberry is approximately 5 years younger than Jenkins

In comment 14843779 christian said:

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I thought what he did in 2018 was deplorable. I hated every move he made and wasn't surprised nearly all of them failed. What's he's done the last 2 years has been much better. The only move I disagree with is Tate. That had some 2018 stink to it. I hope he avoids that this year.

Only bad move was Tate last year?

Christian - I have a few others:
- Bethea
- Forgot to get a NFL player at Center
- Zero foresight into future/development needs at Tackle
- Trading picks for LW in midseason

In comment 14843807 trueblueinpw said:

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He’s done too much damage for too long. Now all of the sudden he understands building through the draft? This isn’t some kind of radical new NFL philosophy, building through the draft has been the known way to success for a very long time. And as Schneier says, Getty’s problem is that he lacks patience. I’d argue that he is impulsive and arrogant as well, which I write not to disparage Getty but that these are the character flaws that lead to his mistakes. I don’t think Getty has changed and I don’t think the course of the Giants has either. It still all comes down to DJ and now, the Judge. We don’t know how Judge or Jones will work out. If they are great - then that’s great and the future is bright. Getty will look good! But I don’t think the FA signings from the past days will mean much one way or another.

I am aligned with this as well.

In comment 14843820 LBH15 said:

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In comment 14843779 christian said: Quote: I thought what he did in 2018 was deplorable. I hated every move he made and wasn't surprised nearly all of them failed. What's he's done the last 2 years has been much better. The only move I disagree with is Tate. That had some 2018 stink to it. I hope he avoids that this year. Only bad move was Tate last year? Christian - I have a few others: - Bethea - Forgot to get a NFL player at Center - Zero foresight into future/development needs at Tackle - Trading picks for LW in midseason

Trading 3 picks to trade up for Baker. Having already spent a 3rd rounder on Beal also investing more draft capital in Ballentine and Love at CB... (only to have to pay 16 million for Bradberry this year, cause none of those guys seem to realistically be able to develop into a CB1)

we've talked about this and I agree there's a lot that's similar to last year, but IMO these are the 2 strategic differences that are positive. Age is sort of obvious and we'd all agree that going for the youngest players in FA possible is a winning strategy. Kirwan suggested it at the combine and he was right.

the contract structure is something some of us kind of speculated on not wanting to go too crazy overspending all the cap room, and the way the market has turned out I think was a very shrewd move. Had more good players gotten to FA it may have made sense to do the traditional structure to accommodate someone like Justin Simmons or Ngakoue but they didn't get there. Signing bonuses for just Martinez and Bradberry could have probably saved enough cap room for 1 more big signing. And even more if they rushed to extend LW. But given the dearth of talent who got to FA, I think it was smart to not overextend.

Clowney is obviously still sitting out there and could still be in the cards, but if they wanted to they could have added all the same guys and just adjusted structure to the future to add him as well. I'm glad they didn't.

Mind you both of these comments are somewhat independent of which players they ultimately chose to sign. I can't say I 100% endorse who they chose - Littleton, Schobert, Conklin, and even Bulaga/Chris Harris were all potentially appealing at the contracts they received. But I'll give them the benefit of doubt since they have familiarity with most of the guys we've signed. I do think I'd prefer LW over DJ Reader, Hargrave, and the other more run oriented interior DL that made it to FA. Not sure he was worth the 3rd, but I do still like having him on a 1 year deal with the ability to recoup a pick by either trading him or letting him walk next year.

about nothing in the depth chart at OT. There were guys on the board last year that could have been gotten for OL instead of using up all those picks. Now we are desperate for this draft.

I don't think these are big upgrades but from a team perspective they are. Jenkins doesn't = Bradberry because Bradberry is a solid citizen and a physical player whereas Jenkins was always doing and saying odd things and he made "business decisions". Bradberry will be an upgrade especially in this system.

As for Fackrell=Golden, sure about the same type of player but Fackrell has a clean injury history and can set the edge, something Golden was putrid at.

Martinez...not a huge fan but he's an absolute upgrade over Ogletree for his effort and hustle alone. I don't know what happened to Tree, but the one we got was a neutered version of the guy he was with the Rams. He doesn't seem interested in playing the run or doing anything and if Martinez is one thing, it's a hard worker and an effort player.

I know the character thing gets poo pood around here, but look at the Pats as the example. With very few exceptions they value character and hard work and it's established a clear culture of keeping your head down and doing your job. I firmly believe that is what Judge wants, he's laying a foundation first and these 3 guys are absolutely typical of it. We need more talent everywhere, Marc Ross and Jerry Reese killed us with horrible drafts for about 3 years running so our cupboard is still pretty bare. These are the types of guys who will set good examples and be productive on the field. All 3 are productive players and not one is a trouble maker.

I see what Judge is doing and I like it, it's team building not star grabbing. It's his first year in charge, let's see how it plays out. As for DG, he's screwed the pooch plenty here but it looks like Judge has some weight in player acquisition now.

his thinking cap on today. Agree with your take. It's the little things.

history professor who drafted Simms #1 to boos and a lynch mob, everyone “trust in Reese”. So you add it up and conclude what exactly.

...he'd be glue.

Let that shit play out?

you make some decent points, but comparing to the Patriots should be outlawed on this board. The Patriots are one of the biggest statistical anomalies in sports history. A combination of the perfect coach/GM with the perfect QB. Trying to recreate something like that is trying to catch lightning in a bottle.

Many, many teams have failed to do what the Patriots do. Like... they don't even draft particularly well and they are still the best team ever. Hoe does that even happen?

In comment 14843897 Joey in VA said:

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I don't think these are big upgrades but from a team perspective they are. Jenkins doesn't = Bradberry because Bradberry is a solid citizen and a physical player whereas Jenkins was always doing and saying odd things and he made "business decisions". Bradberry will be an upgrade especially in this system. As for Fackrell=Golden, sure about the same type of player but Fackrell has a clean injury history and can set the edge, something Golden was putrid at. Martinez...not a huge fan but he's an absolute upgrade over Ogletree for his effort and hustle alone. I don't know what happened to Tree, but the one we got was a neutered version of the guy he was with the Rams. He doesn't seem interested in playing the run or doing anything and if Martinez is one thing, it's a hard worker and an effort player. I know the character thing gets poo pood around here, but look at the Pats as the example. With very few exceptions they value character and hard work and it's established a clear culture of keeping your head down and doing your job. I firmly believe that is what Judge wants, he's laying a foundation first and these 3 guys are absolutely typical of it. We need more talent everywhere, Marc Ross and Jerry Reese killed us with horrible drafts for about 3 years running so our cupboard is still pretty bare. These are the types of guys who will set good examples and be productive on the field. All 3 are productive players and not one is a trouble maker. I see what Judge is doing and I like it, it's team building not star grabbing. It's his first year in charge, let's see how it plays out. As for DG, he's screwed the pooch plenty here but it looks like Judge has some weight in player acquisition now.

+1

In comment 14843734 madeinstars said:

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If the plan is bad? I don't see how this should ease anybody's worries. Clearly Gettleman's plans in previous years haven't worked out. Clearly the plan from a team building perspective is still stopping the run first (Martinez, Williams, Mayo signings), something that hasn't been working for the Giants defense as a whole for Gettleman's entire tenure so far. Clearly the plan is still not going all out on putting together a great run blocking O-line. If the plan is for rookies to come in and fix this, how are they not "drafting for need"? Clearly there is still no room for coverage linebackers or safeties in this plan. An area in which the Giants have been abysmal for forever.

It’s the same plan and I thought it was obvious that they were rebuilding. They literally had to turnover nearly the entire roster. If you expected that done in two years, with an aging QB on the roster with no replacement in place, then your expectations were unrealistic.

Are there holes left? Absolutely, but this roster is dramatically better than the one Gettleman inherited from the disaster Reese/Ross left him.

really deserve the "character matters" mantra they get. That is a angle that gets thrown around a lot, but I don't buy it.

As a franchise in the Belichick era they have signed, drafted or trade for while knowing the history of baggage (at some level):

Aaron Hernandez
Albert Haynesworth
Chad Johnson (or Ochocinco)
Randy Moss
Aqib Talib
Donte Stallworth
LaGarette Blount
Jabar Gaffney
Brandon Meriweather
Josh Gordon
Brandon Spikes

off the top of my head.

even guys like the below I wouldn't call high character
Rodney Harrison
Gronk

Plus players like Brady and Edelman have been suspended, not mentioning the teams myriad of controversial cheating scandals.

I do believe character matters, but the Patriots aren't a great example.

In comment 14843925 Jay on the Island said:

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In comment 14843734 madeinstars said: Quote: If the plan is bad? I don't see how this should ease anybody's worries. Clearly Gettleman's plans in previous years haven't worked out. Clearly the plan from a team building perspective is still stopping the run first (Martinez, Williams, Mayo signings), something that hasn't been working for the Giants defense as a whole for Gettleman's entire tenure so far. Clearly the plan is still not going all out on putting together a great run blocking O-line. If the plan is for rookies to come in and fix this, how are they not "drafting for need"? Clearly there is still no room for coverage linebackers or safeties in this plan. An area in which the Giants have been abysmal for forever. It’s the same plan and I thought it was obvious that they were rebuilding. They literally had to turnover nearly the entire roster. If you expected that done in two years, with an aging QB on the roster with no replacement in place, then your expectations were unrealistic. Are there holes left? Absolutely, but this roster is dramatically better than the one Gettleman inherited from the disaster Reese/Ross left him.

Ask yourself this: Gettleman's self proclaimed philosophy when he started was: run the ball, stop the run, rush the passer, protect the QB.

Whether or not you agree with that philosophy in today's NFL aside, in two years time he managed to really only sort of accomplish one of those things: stopping the run. And the team he inherited (with Harrison, JPP and Vernon) was already pretty good at that.

After two years of rebuilding, there should be some semblance of improvement, no matter how bad the team you started with.

In comment 14843940 pjcas18 said:

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really deserve the "character matters" mantra they get. That is a angle that gets thrown around a lot, but I don't buy it. As a franchise in the Belichick era they have signed, drafted or trade for while knowing the history of baggage (at some level): Aaron Hernandez Albert Haynesworth Chad Johnson (or Ochocinco) Randy Moss Aqib Talib Donte Stallworth LaGarette Blount Jabar Gaffney Brandon Meriweather Josh Gordon Brandon Spikes off the top of my head. even guys like the below I wouldn't call high character Rodney Harrison Gronk Plus players like Brady and Edelman have been suspended, not mentioning the teams myriad of controversial cheating scandals. I do believe character matters, but the Patriots aren't a great example.

Good post. This is one of the great myths about the Pats. What they actually try to do is bring in the problem player and hope they can reset him into the culture per BB and Brady.

What they are actually great at is cutting bait.

players on the offense. That should be at the top of whatever this best new plan since 2008 is...

Until that is solved, hard to embrace this best new plan since 2008.

In comment 14843810 Rudy5757 said:

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Martinez = Ogletree not Golden

Martinez seems to have a better IQ from the limited film I have went over thus far.

to Wirfs, the more he seems like a guy this new regime would like. I think he's absolutely in play at #4 or especially a trade back

The plan didn't work, for a number of reasons - some of which were flaws in the plan, and some of which were just bad luck:

1) The entire offensive line - among the best in the League - fell apart prematurely over the course of two years, from mid-2009 to early 2011. None of the replacements, particularly Baas and Beatty, was productive for more than a year or two.

2) The rebuilt, post-Plax receiving corps was decimated by career-ending injuries, plus a few flat-out bad third-round picks.

3) The centerpiece of the plan for the secondary, Kenny Phillips, suffered a debilitating knee injury in his second year, and was never close to the same player.

4) The projection of David Wilson as Tiki Barber II was probably delusional, but he could have at least been a useful change-of-pace weapon if his spine had held up.

I can't really defend what happened to the front seven after Pierce, Tuck, Osi and Canty started to wear down. Jason Pierre-Paul came into the League with Hall of Fame talent and the mind of a child. Mike Boley was a very good player when he felt like it, but also an unreliable, world-class @$$hole. The routine of drafting a good DT in the second round every other year and then letting him walk worked fine until the quality of the draftees dropped.

on point as usual.

Not superstars, but players on the rise who figured in Reese's roadmap when they tore up their knees.

In comment 14843917 madeinstars said:

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you make some decent points, but comparing to the Patriots should be outlawed on this board. The Patriots are one of the biggest statistical anomalies in sports history. A combination of the perfect coach/GM with the perfect QB. Trying to recreate something like that is trying to catch lightning in a bottle. Many, many teams have failed to do what the Patriots do. Like... they don't even draft particularly well and they are still the best team ever. Hoe does that even happen?

He's comparing 1 facet of the Patriots, he isn't saying we are going to copy everything they do.

In comment 14843717 madeinstars said:

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People tried to sell this fan base that Gettleman had a plan in year 1: Retooling and one more run with Eli. And then he allegedly had a plan in year 2: Winning while rebuilding. Why should we believe this supposed plan will work out any better than the previous two?

Why should we believe it won't?