Good in-depth discussion with Brett Kollmann and EJ Snyder, who covers the Bears, about the best way to utilize Simmons as a MLB. Starts at 7:08. Simmons - ( New Window )
And I think his best football is perhaps still ahead of him.
I don't think people should continue to try and put him in these boxes. He's kind of a unicorn athlete, and while acknowledging that rare athletes aren't always good football players, his actual production would give me some confidence that the chances are good he will translate well to the NFL game.
I think you can use this guy in a lot of ways, but I think he should be used primarily as a linebacker, but his responsibilities at linebacker will be more complex than the average NFL linebacker because you can do more with him.
RE: RE: I haven't seen the physicality or mean streak in him
to play MIKE. He huffed at Urlacher comparisons, it sounds like he wants to play rover.
I kind of agree. In a 3-4, he would be the inside LB on the weak side. In a 4-3, he would be the weak outside LB. In a 3-3-5, he would be the in the box safety.
Gives you versatility, if a team goes 11 on a run/pass down, we can go nickel with him playing S and not give up too much size.
But as bad as our O-line is, our pass defense and pass rush is actually worse. I personally think Simmons makes a bigger impact for value at 4 but I like Simmons.
I think if you like Simmons then he is pick and at 4 he is worth it. If you do not like Simmons at 4 I think you shouldn't want him drafted at all.
I think we can get value on Oline in the second and possibly even later in the draft. I do not think any of the OT are automatic studs that make me that confident. I think the best olines are the ones best coached more than they are the most athletically talented.
I am no scout but I agree with this video. You play with what you have. You should be trying to put the best talent on the field and putting those players is best place to be successful. I think Simmons is one of those guys, if you draft him you design the defense to his strengths. He fits what we have already and makes us a lot better. We played the run pretty well last year. Our defensive line has the job of stopping the inside run, Simmons can help stopping the run the outside and helps us cover the middle of the field - those are needs for us too.
I think most of agree that we would all prefer to trade down and still get the guy we like. As a fan I always trust the coaching staff and we have a new one - if they draft Simmons I have no problem with it, if they dont, then I trust they did not believe he could be dominant in the NFL.
RE: RE: Being a Clemson fan typically doesn't help your argument
You’re right about that, but I think where I get caught is that my perception of him was never soft. he doesn’t run head first into the action like a Willie Gay Jr but he also doesn’t misread the action like he does.
A lot of people see his body type and see him chasing down plays he has no business making and assume that’s what type of player he is. A run and chase shoe string tackler, which is far from reality imo.
He’s not yesterdays lb and an OT is the safer pick. But I see upside.
AGiant, I am with you. Simmons is a freak defender that makes a ton of wow plays and does things a person his size and length don't normally do. He has so much athleticism that he is looked at as more of an athlete than a football player. He may be the new breed of backend defender the game is moving toward. Some don't see the value in him at 4. Me personally, I can see the reason to pass him up except for the extreme need at OT. In fact, if we had a decent OT already on the roster I bet many here would be thinking Simmons HAS to be the pick based on BPA.
He is not a prototypical MLB in a traditional 4-3 alignment, so the original thought of him being like Urlacher is way off.
I’m a Clemson fan, I’ve been all over Simmons for 2 years now, I was all over Dexter Lawrence as the best of the bunch last year as well.
Nobody is refusing to acknowledge his talent, we are talking about his utility for a specific position, one that is the most physical of any in a defense's back 7. For the right defensive scheme, he would be a great fit. For a team looking for a MIKE, not so much.
I think people need to see the future of where this league is headed - if you dont grab simmons now, you will be begging for someone like him.
We already use pepper in the box constantly, we used landon in the box before that. That location is a position. The idea here is Simmons plays that spot, which allows Peppers to play behind him, and you are sitting one of your crappy LBs. Big deal your defense is immediately better. He will play LB better than Peppers, can get to side line, get to outside and cover better than your LBS.
but ..but... he cant shed a blocker or stuff the middle, well if your defensive line that you already sunk all your money into doesn't absorb multiple lineman with their fat asses or stop interior running - you have already messed up. That is not going to be Simmons' job nor is it supposed to be. We are not playing a 3-4. We will be disguising blitzes and trying to trick the QB into bad decisions, and having delayed blitzes that you design to be unblocked.
Overall Strengths
+ Explosive athlete who covers lots of ground
+ Hits well above his weight as a tackler
+ Rangy in coverage with loose hips and agile feet
+ Added value as a rusher from the edge or from space
Overall Weaknesses
- Very lean frame
- Struggles to read keys and maintain gap discipline
- Inconsistent tackling technique
BLANK has some of the best physical tools of any player in this draft class. He's on the leaner side for a linebacker but plays with sufficient power. It's the athleticism that sets him apart. As evidenced by a 4.36 unofficial 40-yard dash at his pro day (on a fast track), BLANK has speed to burn. He gets to top speed in an instant.
Coverage: Considering the natural athleticism he possesses, BLANK has the natural ability to succeed in coverage. He's capable of running with any tight end or running back, and has the flexibility to keep up with misdirection. BLANK does have a tendency to get over-aggressive in pass coverage and will bite on routes.
Instincts/Recognition: BLANK finds himself in so many plays because of his instincts. He can read a play in a hurry and has the athleticism to turn instincts into production. Has a penchant for making places. It would be nice to see BLANK get a better understanding for taking on blockers.
Pass rush: BLANK is a good blitzer, but he's not a good pass rusher. What does that mean? BLANK isn't the type of outside linebacker who should be relied on to rush the passer on a consistent basis. He's not Von Miller. However, he can really fire off the edge and get to the quarterback, particularly if it's just a running back trying to block him. He's just not strong enough to consistently be relied on as a pass rusher.
Pursuit/Quickness: This is what helps BLANK grade out so highly. BLANK is obviously fast running straight line and will catch ball carriers from behind. BLANK's burst is what is most impressive. In short areas, BLANK closes on the ball carrier in a hurry to stuff a play.
Run defense: Some may look at BLANK's size and question his skill against the run. Those people would be wrong in doing so. BLANK is quick to locate the ball and closes on a developing play in a hurry. Although he's lacking sometimes as a tackler, he has shown he can take down the ball carrier in a variety of ways. Against the run, BLANK relies on shooting through gaps or beating the runner to the edge. He has trouble when he's playing the run inside and has to beat a blocker.
Strength/Tackling: Although BLANK is capable of delving a devastating hit, there are times when his tackling technique leaves something to be desired. He's not a bad tackler necessarily, but needs to continue improving in this area. Would do well with more strength throughout his frame. When BLANK isn't getting underneath linemen, he's not strong enough to shed consistently.
Final word: There is a lot to like about BLANK. He was a captain at BLANK. He led the team in tackles two straight seasons. He was an All-American and semifinalist or finalist for all the big defensive awards. He's a good athlete for the position, capable of dropping into coverage or blitzing the quarterback.
Why, then, is he just a late-first or early second-round prospect?
Part of it is positional value, or lack thereof. There are some power issues with BLANK. Unless he can get stronger, it's hard to see him getting much better then he is right now. BLANK struggles to shed blockers and has some tackle technique lapses. Regardless, whatever team drafts BLANK will get a player who can step in immediately and be productive as a pro.
But that write up is pretty close to what someone would write about Simmons and no was complaining about Shazier being as a MLB in the NFL in a 3-4. Also as soon as he got hurt the Steelers defense sucked and did not recover until they got Devin Bush
My feelings exactly, the 3-4 was designed to have a thumper and a free runner, we just switched to a 3-4 so I feel the majority of our fan base doesn’t grasp that concept.
This is a guy the Steelers would trade up for if they didn’t just do so in the last draft class.
My feelings exactly, the 3-4 was designed to have a thumper and a free runner, we just switched to a 3-4 so I feel the majority of our fan base doesn’t grasp that concept.
This is a guy the Steelers would trade up for if they didn’t just do so in the last draft class.
Yep and that is because guys like this are harder to find than O-lineman
But that write up is pretty close to what someone would write about Simmons and no was complaining about Shazier being as a MLB in the NFL in a 3-4. Also as soon as he got hurt the Steelers defense sucked and did not recover until they got Devin Bush
Steel,
Great job supporting your point of view. I agree with you by the way. Simmons is a total stud.
I can totally understand that view - can you tell me what specifically about Simmons makes you think he cant do it. Cause when I read about him he sounds like that kind of player. I understand his college stats might be less but he also took a lot less snaps from the LB spot than Shazier. But I do see guy who can cover from the LB position and get to edge to stop an RB.
Great job supporting your point of view. I agree with you by the way. Simmons is a total stud.
I can see how a player like him could look bad if not used correctly as well. I just feel when I watch the Steelers and the Patriots, those defenses are good because they know how to use linebackers properly and to their strengths, this is the kind of player they go after and they bloom with those squads. When these players go to teams who use them wrong they get labeled as tweeners. I think some of it is just hindsight and coaching. He seems to have to ability if coached and used properly.
This is real position that needs addressed - Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes, Deshaun Watson, George Kittle, Travis Kelce, Zach Ertz. I dont care if a player is not a run stuffer. I think he is a three down player he just wont be playing the same location on all three downs.
You don't put him in a position where that is primary responsibility, you have the slower LB do that job. On those plays he stands over the TE or spies for play action, or spies to QB for a keep.
Bad analysis. Simmons is a move LB. His best attributes will be in off ball situations.
I think he's worthy of the #4 pick but the way things played out in free agency along the OL we aren't picking him. It's going to be an OT. The talent and need there are too great to do differently.
Because they have one of the best lb prospects of this decade in Dont’a Hightower, which allows for everyone to play a lot more free not worrying about the middle.
I can totally understand that view - can you tell me what specifically about Simmons makes you think he cant do it. Cause when I read about him he sounds like that kind of player. I understand his college stats might be less but he also took a lot less snaps from the LB spot than Shazier. But I do see guy who can cover from the LB position and get to edge to stop an RB.
Simmons doesn't play with the same breed of fire, physicality, or alpha dog that a Shazier, Bush, or an Urlacher played with. It's a crucial missing element that I think limits his head up game in the NFL. He's got unique versatile physical tools and can cover ground. But, I just don't see the power/physicality/mean aspect to his game.
The game is changing more to a speed and cover game. But, oh how we love the mean MFer in the middle who's spirit and physicality make all the difference in the world out there. There's no replacing Harry Carson, as LT would say.
Position for him is middle linebacker, he is an outside linebacker or a safety, but you have to be an idiot to not move him all around to create mismatches.
If we got an extra 2 and drafted OT and C in 2nd
Or even if we got a 3 and 4 instead
I have no issue with 3 olineman in first 4 rds if we somehow acquire and 3 and 4 in a trade down
Other 3 picks could be wr, Er and more d
Also package a couple 7ths and our fifth for maybe another 4
Position for him is middle linebacker, he is an outside linebacker or a safety, but you have to be an idiot to not move him all around to create mismatches.
I agree he gets moved around a lot but if you are playing 4 linebackers, I do not think Simmons is your edge rusher so he would not play outside. Usually the outside backers are blitzing off the snap because one of them is always rushing, then the inside back either slides to outside to cover the pass or stays in the middle to cover the pass. That would make Simmons an Inside linebacker who sometimes get put outside when in obvious passing downs.
My feelings exactly, the 3-4 was designed to have a thumper and a free runner, we just switched to a 3-4 so I feel the majority of our fan base doesn’t grasp that concept.
This is a guy the Steelers would trade up for if they didn’t just do so in the last draft class.
The Giants have played the 3-4 for at least 2 years. I am not disagreeing with your assessment. Just the misstatement.
The Giants need a great player on defense. They haven’t had one for almost 30 years. There are only 2 possible in this draft. They probably only have a shot at one of them - Simmons.
again next year... They will most likely be picking top 5 again next year. Is next year a good class for OL?. Is there another Simmons in this draft?. Giants will need to decide, they passed on Nelson and Chubb becuase Barkley was a generational talent, do they think Simmons is that and if so how do you pass on him?
again next year... They will most likely be picking top 5 again next year. Is next year a good class for OL?. Is there another Simmons in this draft?. Giants will need to decide, they passed on Nelson and Chubb becuase Barkley was a generational talent, do they think Simmons is that and if so how do you pass on him?
I think I sit closer to your belief too, this simply comes down to how much do the Giants like Simmons, if they really like him the this is no brainer for them if he is there. You can find olinemen later in the draft too. You are not finding another Simmons. Our o-line did suck, but our defense was even worse. This is what it is like when you have a lot of holes, you need to make tough decisions. You can pick an OT but he better be stud and i am not too sure if any of them stand out like that.
I am still holding out Giant Fan Hope that it goes Burrow,Young,Okudah, then Miami gives another 1st round pick to move down 1 spot for a QB. We get Simmons, and draft an OT with the pick we get. That is the dream scenario if you ask me.
again next year... They will most likely be picking top 5 again next year. Is next year a good class for OL?. Is there another Simmons in this draft?. Giants will need to decide, they passed on Nelson and Chubb becuase Barkley was a generational talent, do they think Simmons is that and if so how do you pass on him?
I think I sit closer to your belief too, this simply comes down to how much do the Giants like Simmons, if they really like him the this is no brainer for them if he is there. You can find olinemen later in the draft too. You are not finding another Simmons. Our o-line did suck, but our defense was even worse. This is what it is like when you have a lot of holes, you need to make tough decisions. You can pick an OT but he better be stud and i am not too sure if any of them stand out like that.
I am still holding out Giant Fan Hope that it goes Burrow,Young,Okudah, then Miami gives another 1st round pick to move down 1 spot for a QB. We get Simmons, and draft an OT with the pick we get. That is the dream scenario if you ask me.
The OL definitely needs help, but lets say the Giants like "multiple OL" like reported, doesn't that make you think maybe none of them are actually worth the #4 pick? I very much doubt all of them could be worth a top 5 pick and I've seen Willis, Becton and Wirfs mocked to us at 4.
He will be special and probably play and learn MLB for years as an all pro. He will have a learning curve but not for very long and become the best we have had at the position for years. Think DG and Judge know this, lets see if he is still there at #4.
Simmons has shown that he can put on weight. At the combine, he
Just not in his DNA. He just isn't MLB nasty, tough or rugged.
But he is without doubt a playmaker. Put him on the field in different scenarios and he will be impactful.
My #1 guy is Simmons, but I think they need to fix the OLine now. IF, big if, they can drop back and pick up a 2nd rounder, then take the best OT and take a C in round two. Has to be done.
I will not be angry if they sit tight and take Simmons, but feel the prudent thing to do is fix the line now. They can probably win games with offense or at least keep it close. Defense needs a whole lot more fixes than they can do in the draft this year.
IMHO, of course.
SQ: "I very much doubt all of them could be worth a top 5 pick"
Wills is a Top 5 pick and two others are Top 10-12. The 4th is Top 15-20.
So yeah the OT class is very good and deep. We have options which is good. We can take one at #4 if the trade market doesn't develop without leaving talent on the board.
Just not in his DNA. He just isn't MLB nasty, tough or rugged.
But he is without doubt a playmaker. Put him on the field in different scenarios and he will be impactful.
My #1 guy is Simmons, but I think they need to fix the OLine now. IF, big if, they can drop back and pick up a 2nd rounder, then take the best OT and take a C in round two. Has to be done.
I will not be angry if they sit tight and take Simmons, but feel the prudent thing to do is fix the line now. They can probably win games with offense or at least keep it close. Defense needs a whole lot more fixes than they can do in the draft this year.
IMHO, of course.
. lLets get him he is BPA, in a position of need wherever he fits into our defense . These OL candidates are very pedestrian and not worth a pick this high. This is a no brainer and think, like the last two drafts OL, ia rarely picked this high and rarely work out where they were drafted. They are are a crapshoot. This guy is a ten year contributor on defense where ever he plays.
his tackling doesn't wow me. Not a mlb, as far as I can see. Great athlete? Sure. Man without a position? Perhaps. The Evan Engram of the defense? Quite possibly.
I’m a Clemson fan, I’ve been all over Simmons for 2 years now, I was all over Dexter Lawrence as the best of the bunch last year as well.
I can point to a bunch of weaknesses in all 4 of those OT’s, that doesn’t make them the wrong pick, the point is that there are things you can coach and things you can’t coach. Gentleman is on the giants site saying that he told his scouts to stop judging block shedding technique because a lot of lb’ers were never taught it, but now we’re expecting a high school receiver converted to college safety, converted to olb to be an elite block shedder.
He’s a polarizing prospect, I get it, but so was Tremaine Edmunds and Derwin James.
Amen..please just draft the most talented player in the draft outside of Chase Young and give them a defensive athlete we haven't seen in some time. Let Martinez support him and manage the defense. Let Simmons be the player they build around and utilize his strengths.
I think people need to see the future of where this league is headed - if you dont grab simmons now, you will be begging for someone like him.
We already use pepper in the box constantly, we used landon in the box before that. That location is a position. The idea here is Simmons plays that spot, which allows Peppers to play behind him, and you are sitting one of your crappy LBs. Big deal your defense is immediately better. He will play LB better than Peppers, can get to side line, get to outside and cover better than your LBS.
but ..but... he cant shed a blocker or stuff the middle, well if your defensive line that you already sunk all your money into doesn't absorb multiple lineman with their fat asses or stop interior running - you have already messed up. That is not going to be Simmons' job nor is it supposed to be. We are not playing a 3-4. We will be disguising blitzes and trying to trick the QB into bad decisions, and having delayed blitzes that you design to be unblocked.
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...if he is, I don't worry about POSITION. What I've read about him is trhat He's been Productive...that's number 1! He's also regarded as a quick/corerct Read-react-Run and Tackle Football Player.
They badly need someone who can tackle sideline to sideline...they badly need speed. If He's a Great football Player, just ask him to play football.
They have some really functional front 7 stoppers. This defense can improve dramatically based on the talent on payroll right now.
of college safeties or hybrids that are touted every year, you'll be able to make the same criticisms that are being levied on Simmons. Simmons is valuable in today's NFL because of his versatility.
Trying to assign a position to him now is a fool's errand. Thomas Davis was once thought to be too slow to be a safety and too light to be a LB, and he started out as a S and became a very good LB.
Bias cuts both ways though. I keep hearing he's a poor tackler and avoids contact, yet he had some of the hardest hits of any clemson defender this year. I guess people base their perception on a handful of highlights.
I don't know if he's got the value at #4, but the way you build good teams is to get good players. He's a very good player. And the liklihood of him busting seems small because of his versatility.
we will regret it big time if we pass on this gold jacket guy for A very ordinary 2nd round OL Tackle. How dumb can you be ???? Have faith in DG and Judge to see this . Been looking for a LB like this for years but they are always gone too early. Take this guy please.
but Simmons looks like a free safety. You can move him around to different spots in the D, but he is essentially a free safety. Can't see him as a MLB. Too thin. Could be an All-Time free safety, but I would hesitate to draft a free safety with the 4th pick when our biggest weakness is OL. Not sexy, but essential to success on the field.
If Simmons is there at #4, you take him, but you probably gotta use the rest of the draft picks on our OL. Offensive line need a lot of help. Dream scenario would be a bidding war for #4 where we can get an extra high pick. That only really lands us Simmons if for some reason Detroit don't trade down and don't take Simmons, which is unlikely.
If Simmons is there at #4, you take him, but you probably gotta use the rest of the draft picks on our OL. Offensive line need a lot of help. Dream scenario would be a bidding war for #4 where we can get an extra high pick. That only really lands us Simmons if for some reason Detroit don't trade down and don't take Simmons, which is unlikely.
Here's the catch.
You take Simmons at #4. Now you get to #36 and all of the best OT's have already been taken. The Giants should really be looking for two OT's this year, one plug and play, one developmental. But now you've already missed out on your plug and play OT. Do you "reach" for a developmental OT here, and perhaps pass up a WR or LB (or OC) you may have graded higher? Or do you take the WR or LB and put off drafting an OT to the next round? What if you're faced with the same dilemma in the 3rd round, and the 4th, and so on down the line?
For me, there are three priorities in this draft:
1. Address your O-Line problem. Draft one in the 1st round (my preference is Jedrick Wills), look for another later on, but no later than the 5th round. Find a good C/OG prospect somewhere in between.
2. Get another weapon (or two) for Daniel Jones. Tate won't be here long-term, Shepard is one big hit away from permanent residence on Queer Street, and Evan Engram is completely unreliable. Be on the lookout for WR's and TE's after the 1st round.
3. Strengthen your defensive backfield. Safeties, Corners, LB's who can cover. Forget the ER's this year. You'll probably be in sub-packages more than half the time, and you'll need reinforcements in your back seven (I expect to see a lot of 4-2-5). Deep half safety, cover LB, slot CB. Rack 'em up on day three.
If Simmons is there at #4, you take him, but you probably gotta use the rest of the draft picks on our OL. Offensive line need a lot of help. Dream scenario would be a bidding war for #4 where we can get an extra high pick. That only really lands us Simmons if for some reason Detroit don't trade down and don't take Simmons, which is unlikely.
Here's the catch.
You take Simmons at #4. Now you get to #36 and all of the best OT's have already been taken. The Giants should really be looking for two OT's this year, one plug and play, one developmental. But now you've already missed out on your plug and play OT. Do you "reach" for a developmental OT here, and perhaps pass up a WR or LB (or OC) you may have graded higher? Or do you take the WR or LB and put off drafting an OT to the next round? What if you're faced with the same dilemma in the 3rd round, and the 4th, and so on down the line?
For me, there are three priorities in this draft:
1. Address your O-Line problem. Draft one in the 1st round (my preference is Jedrick Wills), look for another later on, but no later than the 5th round. Find a good C/OG prospect somewhere in between.
2. Get another weapon (or two) for Daniel Jones. Tate won't be here long-term, Shepard is one big hit away from permanent residence on Queer Street, and Evan Engram is completely unreliable. Be on the lookout for WR's and TE's after the 1st round.
3. Strengthen your defensive backfield. Safeties, Corners, LB's who can cover. Forget the ER's this year. You'll probably be in sub-packages more than half the time, and you'll need reinforcements in your back seven (I expect to see a lot of 4-2-5). Deep half safety, cover LB, slot CB. Rack 'em up on day three.
There’s really only probably four positions where there aren’t massive holes: QB, RB, CB and DL. I would add TE but your point about engram is valid. Still thinking kaden Smith may be a long term answer there but I digress.
Point being, there are so many holes that it’s a bad mindset going in thinking you need to patch up anything immediately. Walk out with the best football players possible. If Simmons is an all pro caliber player I don’t care that we have a massive gap at RT, take the BPA. Build your core.
After investing the #2 pick in the 2018 draft on a RB, and the #6 pick in the 2019 draft on a QB, failure to once again prioritize their offensive line is simply unacceptable to me. It strikes me as malfeasance on the part of the FO.
If they're going to give short shrift to the O-Line for another year, they might as well trade Barkley now while his value is still high, and pray that Daniel Jones doesn't turn into David Carr 2.0.
I agree with you on your last post. We can not go into this draft thinking we are going to fix all of our problems. I personally think Simmons is better than the OTs. If the Giants think otherwise then I would fully support them taking the OT but I just think Simmons could be special. I also think we could get better at line play with later picks and better coaching. I don't think I could say the same thing the other way around.
Some people think drafting Simmons at 4 is high and others think we are super lucky if Simmons falls to us. This reminds me of the year that I begged a pleaded for Aaron Donald and people that he was too small to play in the NFL.
I truly feel Offensive Line is a very coachable position and the whole can be greater than the sum of the parts. A defensive needs a few great athletes to make it work. IF Simmons can produce in the NFL and can cover sideline to sideline that impact would be greater.
This just comes down to whether you think Simmons could be that or if you think the OT you take can be an All Pro Left tackle. I personally have more faith in Simmons over the Tackles.
none of these OTs are worth the #4 pick in the draft; they are late 1st or 2nd round talent at most. You get QBs and defense this low in the draft not mediocre experimental OL. This is strictly a need pick not a smart pick when you draft this early. Rather they trade down and get more picks for the OL. Maybe one or two will work out ,because you never know with that position. You cannot force it.
of middle LBer in terms of Dick Butkus or Singletary, in todays NFL all LBers have to make plays either in coverage or stopping the run and that takes speed....
I don't think people should continue to try and put him in these boxes. He's kind of a unicorn athlete, and while acknowledging that rare athletes aren't always good football players, his actual production would give me some confidence that the chances are good he will translate well to the NFL game.
I think you can use this guy in a lot of ways, but I think he should be used primarily as a linebacker, but his responsibilities at linebacker will be more complex than the average NFL linebacker because you can do more with him.
Quote:
to play MIKE. He huffed at Urlacher comparisons, it sounds like he wants to play rover.
I kind of agree. In a 3-4, he would be the inside LB on the weak side. In a 4-3, he would be the weak outside LB. In a 3-3-5, he would be the in the box safety.
Gives you versatility, if a team goes 11 on a run/pass down, we can go nickel with him playing S and not give up too much size.
I think if you like Simmons then he is pick and at 4 he is worth it. If you do not like Simmons at 4 I think you shouldn't want him drafted at all.
I think we can get value on Oline in the second and possibly even later in the draft. I do not think any of the OT are automatic studs that make me that confident. I think the best olines are the ones best coached more than they are the most athletically talented.
I am no scout but I agree with this video. You play with what you have. You should be trying to put the best talent on the field and putting those players is best place to be successful. I think Simmons is one of those guys, if you draft him you design the defense to his strengths. He fits what we have already and makes us a lot better. We played the run pretty well last year. Our defensive line has the job of stopping the inside run, Simmons can help stopping the run the outside and helps us cover the middle of the field - those are needs for us too.
I think most of agree that we would all prefer to trade down and still get the guy we like. As a fan I always trust the coaching staff and we have a new one - if they draft Simmons I have no problem with it, if they dont, then I trust they did not believe he could be dominant in the NFL.
Quote:
Fans tend to get stuck on bias.
You’re right about that, but I think where I get caught is that my perception of him was never soft. he doesn’t run head first into the action like a Willie Gay Jr but he also doesn’t misread the action like he does.
A lot of people see his body type and see him chasing down plays he has no business making and assume that’s what type of player he is. A run and chase shoe string tackler, which is far from reality imo.
He’s not yesterdays lb and an OT is the safer pick. But I see upside.
AGiant, I am with you. Simmons is a freak defender that makes a ton of wow plays and does things a person his size and length don't normally do. He has so much athleticism that he is looked at as more of an athlete than a football player. He may be the new breed of backend defender the game is moving toward. Some don't see the value in him at 4. Me personally, I can see the reason to pass him up except for the extreme need at OT. In fact, if we had a decent OT already on the roster I bet many here would be thinking Simmons HAS to be the pick based on BPA.
He is not a prototypical MLB in a traditional 4-3 alignment, so the original thought of him being like Urlacher is way off.
4-3 ELB, 3-4 WILB, 3-3 ROVER/, 4-2 Money backer.....YES!
A great hybrid LB/S.
Nobody is refusing to acknowledge his talent, we are talking about his utility for a specific position, one that is the most physical of any in a defense's back 7. For the right defensive scheme, he would be a great fit. For a team looking for a MIKE, not so much.
We already use pepper in the box constantly, we used landon in the box before that. That location is a position. The idea here is Simmons plays that spot, which allows Peppers to play behind him, and you are sitting one of your crappy LBs. Big deal your defense is immediately better. He will play LB better than Peppers, can get to side line, get to outside and cover better than your LBS.
but ..but... he cant shed a blocker or stuff the middle, well if your defensive line that you already sunk all your money into doesn't absorb multiple lineman with their fat asses or stop interior running - you have already messed up. That is not going to be Simmons' job nor is it supposed to be. We are not playing a 3-4. We will be disguising blitzes and trying to trick the QB into bad decisions, and having delayed blitzes that you design to be unblocked.
Simmons is a stud. He has the production and the measurables. I hope he is the pick if he is there.
+ Explosive athlete who covers lots of ground
+ Hits well above his weight as a tackler
+ Rangy in coverage with loose hips and agile feet
+ Added value as a rusher from the edge or from space
Overall Weaknesses
- Very lean frame
- Struggles to read keys and maintain gap discipline
- Inconsistent tackling technique
BLANK has some of the best physical tools of any player in this draft class. He's on the leaner side for a linebacker but plays with sufficient power. It's the athleticism that sets him apart. As evidenced by a 4.36 unofficial 40-yard dash at his pro day (on a fast track), BLANK has speed to burn. He gets to top speed in an instant.
Coverage: Considering the natural athleticism he possesses, BLANK has the natural ability to succeed in coverage. He's capable of running with any tight end or running back, and has the flexibility to keep up with misdirection. BLANK does have a tendency to get over-aggressive in pass coverage and will bite on routes.
Instincts/Recognition: BLANK finds himself in so many plays because of his instincts. He can read a play in a hurry and has the athleticism to turn instincts into production. Has a penchant for making places. It would be nice to see BLANK get a better understanding for taking on blockers.
Pass rush: BLANK is a good blitzer, but he's not a good pass rusher. What does that mean? BLANK isn't the type of outside linebacker who should be relied on to rush the passer on a consistent basis. He's not Von Miller. However, he can really fire off the edge and get to the quarterback, particularly if it's just a running back trying to block him. He's just not strong enough to consistently be relied on as a pass rusher.
Pursuit/Quickness: This is what helps BLANK grade out so highly. BLANK is obviously fast running straight line and will catch ball carriers from behind. BLANK's burst is what is most impressive. In short areas, BLANK closes on the ball carrier in a hurry to stuff a play.
Run defense: Some may look at BLANK's size and question his skill against the run. Those people would be wrong in doing so. BLANK is quick to locate the ball and closes on a developing play in a hurry. Although he's lacking sometimes as a tackler, he has shown he can take down the ball carrier in a variety of ways. Against the run, BLANK relies on shooting through gaps or beating the runner to the edge. He has trouble when he's playing the run inside and has to beat a blocker.
Strength/Tackling: Although BLANK is capable of delving a devastating hit, there are times when his tackling technique leaves something to be desired. He's not a bad tackler necessarily, but needs to continue improving in this area. Would do well with more strength throughout his frame. When BLANK isn't getting underneath linemen, he's not strong enough to shed consistently.
Final word: There is a lot to like about BLANK. He was a captain at BLANK. He led the team in tackles two straight seasons. He was an All-American and semifinalist or finalist for all the big defensive awards. He's a good athlete for the position, capable of dropping into coverage or blitzing the quarterback.
Why, then, is he just a late-first or early second-round prospect?
Part of it is positional value, or lack thereof. There are some power issues with BLANK. Unless he can get stronger, it's hard to see him getting much better then he is right now. BLANK struggles to shed blockers and has some tackle technique lapses. Regardless, whatever team drafts BLANK will get a player who can step in immediately and be productive as a pro.
ding ding - Ryan Shazier
But that write up is pretty close to what someone would write about Simmons and no was complaining about Shazier being as a MLB in the NFL in a 3-4. Also as soon as he got hurt the Steelers defense sucked and did not recover until they got Devin Bush
This is a guy the Steelers would trade up for if they didn’t just do so in the last draft class.
This is a guy the Steelers would trade up for if they didn’t just do so in the last draft class.
Yep and that is because guys like this are harder to find than O-lineman
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shazier or d jones?
ding ding - Ryan Shazier
But that write up is pretty close to what someone would write about Simmons and no was complaining about Shazier being as a MLB in the NFL in a 3-4. Also as soon as he got hurt the Steelers defense sucked and did not recover until they got Devin Bush
Steel,
Great job supporting your point of view. I agree with you by the way. Simmons is a total stud.
I can totally understand that view - can you tell me what specifically about Simmons makes you think he cant do it. Cause when I read about him he sounds like that kind of player. I understand his college stats might be less but he also took a lot less snaps from the LB spot than Shazier. But I do see guy who can cover from the LB position and get to edge to stop an RB.
Steel,
Great job supporting your point of view. I agree with you by the way. Simmons is a total stud.
I can see how a player like him could look bad if not used correctly as well. I just feel when I watch the Steelers and the Patriots, those defenses are good because they know how to use linebackers properly and to their strengths, this is the kind of player they go after and they bloom with those squads. When these players go to teams who use them wrong they get labeled as tweeners. I think some of it is just hindsight and coaching. He seems to have to ability if coached and used properly.
This is real position that needs addressed - Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes, Deshaun Watson, George Kittle, Travis Kelce, Zach Ertz. I dont care if a player is not a run stuffer. I think he is a three down player he just wont be playing the same location on all three downs.
You don't put him in a position where that is primary responsibility, you have the slower LB do that job. On those plays he stands over the TE or spies for play action, or spies to QB for a keep.
I think he's worthy of the #4 pick but the way things played out in free agency along the OL we aren't picking him. It's going to be an OT. The talent and need there are too great to do differently.
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I can totally understand that view - can you tell me what specifically about Simmons makes you think he cant do it. Cause when I read about him he sounds like that kind of player. I understand his college stats might be less but he also took a lot less snaps from the LB spot than Shazier. But I do see guy who can cover from the LB position and get to edge to stop an RB.
Simmons doesn't play with the same breed of fire, physicality, or alpha dog that a Shazier, Bush, or an Urlacher played with. It's a crucial missing element that I think limits his head up game in the NFL. He's got unique versatile physical tools and can cover ground. But, I just don't see the power/physicality/mean aspect to his game.
The game is changing more to a speed and cover game. But, oh how we love the mean MFer in the middle who's spirit and physicality make all the difference in the world out there. There's no replacing Harry Carson, as LT would say.
Or even if we got a 3 and 4 instead
I have no issue with 3 olineman in first 4 rds if we somehow acquire and 3 and 4 in a trade down
Other 3 picks could be wr, Er and more d
Also package a couple 7ths and our fifth for maybe another 4
I agree he gets moved around a lot but if you are playing 4 linebackers, I do not think Simmons is your edge rusher so he would not play outside. Usually the outside backers are blitzing off the snap because one of them is always rushing, then the inside back either slides to outside to cover the pass or stays in the middle to cover the pass. That would make Simmons an Inside linebacker who sometimes get put outside when in obvious passing downs.
This is a guy the Steelers would trade up for if they didn’t just do so in the last draft class.
The Giants have played the 3-4 for at least 2 years. I am not disagreeing with your assessment. Just the misstatement.
The Giants need a great player on defense. They haven’t had one for almost 30 years. There are only 2 possible in this draft. They probably only have a shot at one of them - Simmons.
I think I sit closer to your belief too, this simply comes down to how much do the Giants like Simmons, if they really like him the this is no brainer for them if he is there. You can find olinemen later in the draft too. You are not finding another Simmons. Our o-line did suck, but our defense was even worse. This is what it is like when you have a lot of holes, you need to make tough decisions. You can pick an OT but he better be stud and i am not too sure if any of them stand out like that.
I am still holding out Giant Fan Hope that it goes Burrow,Young,Okudah, then Miami gives another 1st round pick to move down 1 spot for a QB. We get Simmons, and draft an OT with the pick we get. That is the dream scenario if you ask me.
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again next year... They will most likely be picking top 5 again next year. Is next year a good class for OL?. Is there another Simmons in this draft?. Giants will need to decide, they passed on Nelson and Chubb becuase Barkley was a generational talent, do they think Simmons is that and if so how do you pass on him?
I think I sit closer to your belief too, this simply comes down to how much do the Giants like Simmons, if they really like him the this is no brainer for them if he is there. You can find olinemen later in the draft too. You are not finding another Simmons. Our o-line did suck, but our defense was even worse. This is what it is like when you have a lot of holes, you need to make tough decisions. You can pick an OT but he better be stud and i am not too sure if any of them stand out like that.
I am still holding out Giant Fan Hope that it goes Burrow,Young,Okudah, then Miami gives another 1st round pick to move down 1 spot for a QB. We get Simmons, and draft an OT with the pick we get. That is the dream scenario if you ask me.
The OL definitely needs help, but lets say the Giants like "multiple OL" like reported, doesn't that make you think maybe none of them are actually worth the #4 pick? I very much doubt all of them could be worth a top 5 pick and I've seen Willis, Becton and Wirfs mocked to us at 4.
But he is without doubt a playmaker. Put him on the field in different scenarios and he will be impactful.
My #1 guy is Simmons, but I think they need to fix the OLine now. IF, big if, they can drop back and pick up a 2nd rounder, then take the best OT and take a C in round two. Has to be done.
I will not be angry if they sit tight and take Simmons, but feel the prudent thing to do is fix the line now. They can probably win games with offense or at least keep it close. Defense needs a whole lot more fixes than they can do in the draft this year.
IMHO, of course.
So yeah the OT class is very good and deep. We have options which is good. We can take one at #4 if the trade market doesn't develop without leaving talent on the board.
But he is without doubt a playmaker. Put him on the field in different scenarios and he will be impactful.
My #1 guy is Simmons, but I think they need to fix the OLine now. IF, big if, they can drop back and pick up a 2nd rounder, then take the best OT and take a C in round two. Has to be done.
I will not be angry if they sit tight and take Simmons, but feel the prudent thing to do is fix the line now. They can probably win games with offense or at least keep it close. Defense needs a whole lot more fixes than they can do in the draft this year.
IMHO, of course.
In base 3-4, WILB
In base 4-2 ILB
In 3-3 OLB
The only time he might be the MLB is in dime and he would kick ass in that formation.
Stop with the MLB shit
I can point to a bunch of weaknesses in all 4 of those OT’s, that doesn’t make them the wrong pick, the point is that there are things you can coach and things you can’t coach. Gentleman is on the giants site saying that he told his scouts to stop judging block shedding technique because a lot of lb’ers were never taught it, but now we’re expecting a high school receiver converted to college safety, converted to olb to be an elite block shedder.
He’s a polarizing prospect, I get it, but so was Tremaine Edmunds and Derwin James.
Amen..please just draft the most talented player in the draft outside of Chase Young and give them a defensive athlete we haven't seen in some time. Let Martinez support him and manage the defense. Let Simmons be the player they build around and utilize his strengths.
We already use pepper in the box constantly, we used landon in the box before that. That location is a position. The idea here is Simmons plays that spot, which allows Peppers to play behind him, and you are sitting one of your crappy LBs. Big deal your defense is immediately better. He will play LB better than Peppers, can get to side line, get to outside and cover better than your LBS.
but ..but... he cant shed a blocker or stuff the middle, well if your defensive line that you already sunk all your money into doesn't absorb multiple lineman with their fat asses or stop interior running - you have already messed up. That is not going to be Simmons' job nor is it supposed to be. We are not playing a 3-4. We will be disguising blitzes and trying to trick the QB into bad decisions, and having delayed blitzes that you design to be unblocked.
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They badly need someone who can tackle sideline to sideline...they badly need speed. If He's a Great football Player, just ask him to play football.
They have some really functional front 7 stoppers. This defense can improve dramatically based on the talent on payroll right now.
Trying to assign a position to him now is a fool's errand. Thomas Davis was once thought to be too slow to be a safety and too light to be a LB, and he started out as a S and became a very good LB.
Bias cuts both ways though. I keep hearing he's a poor tackler and avoids contact, yet he had some of the hardest hits of any clemson defender this year. I guess people base their perception on a handful of highlights.
I don't know if he's got the value at #4, but the way you build good teams is to get good players. He's a very good player. And the liklihood of him busting seems small because of his versatility.
Here's the catch.
You take Simmons at #4. Now you get to #36 and all of the best OT's have already been taken. The Giants should really be looking for two OT's this year, one plug and play, one developmental. But now you've already missed out on your plug and play OT. Do you "reach" for a developmental OT here, and perhaps pass up a WR or LB (or OC) you may have graded higher? Or do you take the WR or LB and put off drafting an OT to the next round? What if you're faced with the same dilemma in the 3rd round, and the 4th, and so on down the line?
For me, there are three priorities in this draft:
1. Address your O-Line problem. Draft one in the 1st round (my preference is Jedrick Wills), look for another later on, but no later than the 5th round. Find a good C/OG prospect somewhere in between.
2. Get another weapon (or two) for Daniel Jones. Tate won't be here long-term, Shepard is one big hit away from permanent residence on Queer Street, and Evan Engram is completely unreliable. Be on the lookout for WR's and TE's after the 1st round.
3. Strengthen your defensive backfield. Safeties, Corners, LB's who can cover. Forget the ER's this year. You'll probably be in sub-packages more than half the time, and you'll need reinforcements in your back seven (I expect to see a lot of 4-2-5). Deep half safety, cover LB, slot CB. Rack 'em up on day three.
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If Simmons is there at #4, you take him, but you probably gotta use the rest of the draft picks on our OL. Offensive line need a lot of help. Dream scenario would be a bidding war for #4 where we can get an extra high pick. That only really lands us Simmons if for some reason Detroit don't trade down and don't take Simmons, which is unlikely.
Here's the catch.
You take Simmons at #4. Now you get to #36 and all of the best OT's have already been taken. The Giants should really be looking for two OT's this year, one plug and play, one developmental. But now you've already missed out on your plug and play OT. Do you "reach" for a developmental OT here, and perhaps pass up a WR or LB (or OC) you may have graded higher? Or do you take the WR or LB and put off drafting an OT to the next round? What if you're faced with the same dilemma in the 3rd round, and the 4th, and so on down the line?
For me, there are three priorities in this draft:
1. Address your O-Line problem. Draft one in the 1st round (my preference is Jedrick Wills), look for another later on, but no later than the 5th round. Find a good C/OG prospect somewhere in between.
2. Get another weapon (or two) for Daniel Jones. Tate won't be here long-term, Shepard is one big hit away from permanent residence on Queer Street, and Evan Engram is completely unreliable. Be on the lookout for WR's and TE's after the 1st round.
3. Strengthen your defensive backfield. Safeties, Corners, LB's who can cover. Forget the ER's this year. You'll probably be in sub-packages more than half the time, and you'll need reinforcements in your back seven (I expect to see a lot of 4-2-5). Deep half safety, cover LB, slot CB. Rack 'em up on day three.
There’s really only probably four positions where there aren’t massive holes: QB, RB, CB and DL. I would add TE but your point about engram is valid. Still thinking kaden Smith may be a long term answer there but I digress.
Point being, there are so many holes that it’s a bad mindset going in thinking you need to patch up anything immediately. Walk out with the best football players possible. If Simmons is an all pro caliber player I don’t care that we have a massive gap at RT, take the BPA. Build your core.
If they're going to give short shrift to the O-Line for another year, they might as well trade Barkley now while his value is still high, and pray that Daniel Jones doesn't turn into David Carr 2.0.
Some people think drafting Simmons at 4 is high and others think we are super lucky if Simmons falls to us. This reminds me of the year that I begged a pleaded for Aaron Donald and people that he was too small to play in the NFL.
I truly feel Offensive Line is a very coachable position and the whole can be greater than the sum of the parts. A defensive needs a few great athletes to make it work. IF Simmons can produce in the NFL and can cover sideline to sideline that impact would be greater.
This just comes down to whether you think Simmons could be that or if you think the OT you take can be an All Pro Left tackle. I personally have more faith in Simmons over the Tackles.