The Giants modern era “2nd team” DL is amazing...Justin Tuck, Erik Howard, George Martin, Osi Umenyora.
I 100% agree with Toomer and Cruz as your WR picks with Plax honorable mention, while omitting OBJ.
Those 3 have resumes full of big time performances in big games, including playoffs. Toomer in the 2000 and 2007 playoffs, Plax in the Green Bay ice bowl, Cruz in the SF championship game.
OBJ turned in his worst game as a Giant in his one playoff shot
Thank you so much for doing this. I've seen all of the players from the 60's till today. I hope some of the players on these lists read this board time to time. They would be proud.
One thing for certain. The Giants have many historic players and coaches.
I learned quite a bit about the early years. I never knew Al Blozis was a star in the making or Owens was quite the player before being a coach. Then you have Danowski and his ties to the Maras and Lombardi and what a player he was but really not mentioned much on BBI with other Giants QB's.
Thanks again for the efforts putting this together.
You're welcome. That's the reason I love doing this, I'm glad you enjoyed it. The first 30 years of the giants history is fascinating, and unfortunately overlooked and nearly forgotten.
RE: Great read, thanks for putting the effort into all the write ups!
The Giants modern era “2nd team” DL is amazing...Justin Tuck, Erik Howard, George Martin, Osi Umenyora.
I 100% agree with Toomer and Cruz as your WR picks with Plax honorable mention, while omitting OBJ.
Those 3 have resumes full of big time performances in big games, including playoffs. Toomer in the 2000 and 2007 playoffs, Plax in the Green Bay ice bowl, Cruz in the SF championship game.
OBJ turned in his worst game as a Giant in his one playoff shot
Toomer was unstoppable in the 2002 Wild Card game in San Francisco. If the Giants hadn't melted down that would've been remembered as one of the Giants great performances.
Excellent job, I refuse to get into any nit picking pissing contest
GREAT JOB, Thank you for ommiting Beckham, including Cruz and Toomer, Toomer had a great run in the 2007 playoffs, had significant contributions in all 4 playoff games, and didn't cost us a great opportunity with the best Coughlin team by shooting himself either. Cruz and Toomer were no brainers in my view.
RE: RE: Great read, thanks for putting the effort into all the write ups!
The Giants modern era “2nd team” DL is amazing...Justin Tuck, Erik Howard, George Martin, Osi Umenyora.
I 100% agree with Toomer and Cruz as your WR picks with Plax honorable mention, while omitting OBJ.
Those 3 have resumes full of big time performances in big games, including playoffs. Toomer in the 2000 and 2007 playoffs, Plax in the Green Bay ice bowl, Cruz in the SF championship game.
OBJ turned in his worst game as a Giant in his one playoff shot
Toomer was unstoppable in the 2002 Wild Card game in San Francisco. If the Giants hadn't melted down that would've been remembered as one of the Giants great performances.
Yup spot on, omission on my part, but that was Toomer in his prime. Heck of a career.
Oldutican, Mendenhall had garbage around him? He had
Jack Gregory next to him for most of his career and Jim Files right behind him for some of his career, just to mention a few. IMO, Gregory was better at RDE than Mendenhall was at RDT.
thank you so much for doing this. I can go back to 1961 although I was not old enough to absorb all of the football. The Robustelli's, Gifford's, and company were very much hero's at that time. Before those days, many of the names were not known to me other than greats like Charlie Conerly, or Mel Hein. There are so many great Giants on this list. Taylor and Carson are personal favorites along with Bavaro for hard nosed football. There are several that are honorable mention that are very good football players.
Very impressive and I refuse to argue about who is better.
56 on I saw those guys play. I enjoyed the read, but I usually don’t like articles like this because of the tough choices.
For example, I love Eli, but to me Phil Simms was the guy. He brought the Giants back from the depths and played in a much tougher era for quarterbacks.
Hard to argue Eli s statistic s, but in my view Simms was the better quarterback.
56 on I saw those guys play. I enjoyed the read, but I usually don’t like articles like this because of the tough choices.
For example, I love Eli, but to me Phil Simms was the guy. He brought the Giants back from the depths and played in a much tougher era for quarterbacks.
Hard to argue Eli s statistic s, but in my view Simms was the better quarterback.
Yep, Eli vs Phil was a big debate. There is no wrong answer. Conerly vs Tittle was the same deal. Both sides have valid arguments, hence the need for honorable mentions.
I love Mendenhall, one of my all time favorites, but even I wouldn't put him ahead of Rosey.
Players in the Dark Years often don’t get enough recognition. Glad to see Lockhardt, Mendenhall and VanPelt mentioned. I do believe Ron Johnson was the best RB of that era.
Kyle Rote was one of my favorites but his knees were shot early in his career. He was very popular but not the best.
RE: RE: Great work and glad no OBJ - now on to the nitpicking
I love Mendenhall, one of my all time favorites, but even I wouldn't put him ahead of Rosey.
Players in the Dark Years often don’t get enough recognition. Glad to see Lockhardt, Mendenhall and VanPelt mentioned. I do believe Ron Johnson was the best RB of that era.
Kyle Rote was one of my favorites but his knees were shot early in his career. He was very popular but not the best.
Rote turned himself into a great flanker, probably as good as Dub Jones for Cleveland and almost as good as Raymond Berry for Baltimore, and he was a team leader. He was an uneleiveably talended back coming out of college and was featured on the cover of Life Magazine. His knees couldnt withstand the pounding after his injuries, and that's the reason the giants drafted Frank Gifford. If Rote hadn't been injured the Giants history of the 1950s is completely different.
was a better player than Jim Burt from what I’ve watched. Was not around to see them live but I’ve watched a shit ton of old Giants games.
Howard is almost criminally underrated.
They were both great. Burt was a force and had some pass rush in his game before his back problems started. It was another tough call between the two where it could've gone either way.
I love Mendenhall, one of my all time favorites, but even I wouldn't put him ahead of Rosey.
Players in the Dark Years often don’t get enough recognition. Glad to see Lockhardt, Mendenhall and VanPelt mentioned. I do believe Ron Johnson was the best RB of that era.
Kyle Rote was one of my favorites but his knees were shot early in his career. He was very popular but not the best.
Ron Johnson was my first "favorite" Giant. I started watching/remembering in 69/70 and he was the man. Great runner. I'd have put him at RB and Gifford at Flanker frankly, but its nitpicking really.
Jim Burt versus Erik Howard was an extremely tough call. If Howard stayed healthy, he probably would have been the #1 guy. His play in the 1990 NFC Championship saved that season.
RE: RE: RE: Great work and glad no OBJ - now on to the nitpicking
I love Mendenhall, one of my all time favorites, but even I wouldn't put him ahead of Rosey.
Players in the Dark Years often don’t get enough recognition. Glad to see Lockhardt, Mendenhall and VanPelt mentioned. I do believe Ron Johnson was the best RB of that era.
Kyle Rote was one of my favorites but his knees were shot early in his career. He was very popular but not the best.
Ron Johnson was my first "favorite" Giant. I started watching/remembering in 69/70 and he was the man. Great runner. I'd have put him at RB and Gifford at Flanker frankly, but its nitpicking really.
The Giants have a strong heritage at RB, we had to make a lot of tough decisions. Ron Johnson had incredible peak seasons in 1970 and 1972 but injuries cost him games and shortened his career. Gifford spent more time at HB than Flanker, so we felt it best to place him in his natural position - especially when the HB option was a signature play for him, and Lomardi recognized the sweep really allowed Gifford's talent to flourish. Much like Rote, Gifford's ability to transform himself to perform at a high level at a different position underscores who special both of them were.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Great work and glad no OBJ - now on to the nitpicking
The Giants have a strong heritage at RB, we had to make a lot of tough decisions. Ron Johnson had incredible peak seasons in 1970 and 1972 but injuries cost him games and shortened his career. Gifford spent more time at HB than Flanker, so we felt it best to place him in his natural position - especially when the HB option was a signature play for him, and Lomardi recognized the sweep really allowed Gifford's talent to flourish. Much like Rote, Gifford's ability to transform himself to perform at a high level at a different position underscores who special both of them were.
Would have liked to see Ron Johnson, and Spider Lockhart mentioned somewhere and other than that my only real disagreement would be that I would place Dave Jennings over Landeta
Thanks for the taking the effort, reading it brought back some good memories.
Gifford was as big an offensive threat in the 1950’s as anyone in the
NFL. Hornung, Jim Brown, McElhenney, Herschel were all in second place. Gifford was the superstar of the league. He played in NY so that helped, but he was still the star.
When he got hurt, it shook up the whole league. He needs to be on the all-time team.
Would have liked to see Ron Johnson, and Spider Lockhart mentioned somewhere and other than that my only real disagreement would be that I would place Dave Jennings over Landeta
Thanks for the taking the effort, reading it brought back some good memories.
Would have liked to see Ron Johnson, and Spider Lockhart mentioned somewhere and other than that my only real disagreement would be that I would place Dave Jennings over Landeta
Thanks for the taking the effort, reading it brought back some good memories.
1967-1971. This was a horrible time for Giant fans. There were few bright spots in this time frame. The one player omitted here who was eventually inducted in to the HOF was Fran Tarkenton. He played most of his career in Minnesota but he did lead the team to a 9-5 record in 1970 with virtually no talent on the team. No mention of him....
I attended the Giants training camp when I was around 8 years old. I approached Dave Meggett for an autograph. His response? "I can't, I have to take a nap." Class act.
I was trying to find an honorable mention for SS and couldn't really find one. Garnes was a big hitter but was not great in coverage. I also didn't realize how short Gibril Wilson's career was, but he found a way to fill up his stat sheet in his four year here.
I was trying to find an honorable mention for SS and couldn't really find one. Garnes was a big hitter but was not great in coverage. I also didn't realize how short Gibril Wilson's career was, but he found a way to fill up his stat sheet in his four year here.
Feagles was an excellent punter, but in no way was he in the same class as Jennings and Landetta.
1967-1971. This was a horrible time for Giant fans. There were few bright spots in this time frame. The one player omitted here who was eventually inducted in to the HOF was Fran Tarkenton. He played most of his career in Minnesota but he did lead the team to a 9-5 record in 1970 with virtually no talent on the team. No mention of him....
Tarkenton was another one who was debated, I was one of his advocates, but you can't include everyone. Like Ron Johnson, Joe Morris, Jeff Feagles - there were others. One of the decisions we made was not having too many honorable mentions to not dilute its significance.
Conerback was another good debate. We have Erich Barnes and Dick Lynch. Originally I had Willie Williams over Barnes but after discussion Barnes got the nod. A lot of thought went into what we're presenting, everyone had their favorites who didn't make the cut.
I agree with you if you have too many "honorable mentions", the whole project gets diluted. But there were a few cases where it would have been borderline criminal not to mention someone.
Up thread, someone mentioned that it's clear the Giants don't have a lot of great WRs in the more modern era. This is very true. Those of us who are middle-aged or older remember a time where Pat and John would constantly remind Giants fans that no Giants WR ever went to the Pro Bowl.
Indeed, if you watch the 2000 playoff games, John Madden goes out of his way to say that Amani Toomer is the first Giants receiver he could remember that opposing defensive coordinators said they would need to double.
That's how bad it was for a long time at WR for the Giants.
The guy who I thought was the best (and so did Phil Simms) during the Simms era was Mike Sherrard. But he only last a few games before he badly damaged his hip. He later came back but wasn't quite the same.
I agree with you if you have too many "honorable mentions", the whole project gets diluted. But there were a few cases where it would have been borderline criminal not to mention someone.
Up thread, someone mentioned that it's clear the Giants don't have a lot of great WRs in the more modern era. This is very true. Those of us who are middle-aged or older remember a time where Pat and John would constantly remind Giants fans that no Giants WR ever went to the Pro Bowl.
Indeed, if you watch the 2000 playoff games, John Madden goes out of his way to say that Amani Toomer is the first Giants receiver he could remember that opposing defensive coordinators said they would need to double.
That's how bad it was for a long time at WR for the Giants.
The guy who I thought was the best (and so did Phil Simms) during the Simms era was Mike Sherrard. But he only last a few games before he badly damaged his hip. He later came back but wasn't quite the same.
The Giants legacy is very deep at certain positions, like RB, OL, LB, QB - but thin at WR. Between Homer Jones and Amani Toomer, who was there? Johnny Perkins? Mike Friede? Floyd Eddings? Chris Calloway? If you look at the Super Bowl teams of 1986 & 1990, the leading receivers both years were the TE Mark Bavaro and the 3rd down backs Tony Galbreath and David Meggett. Amani Toomer's emergance at a big time receiver in 1999 was a revelation at the time, something a whole generation of Giant fans hadn't ever seen before.
I agree with you if you have too many "honorable mentions", the whole project gets diluted. But there were a few cases where it would have been borderline criminal not to mention someone.
Up thread, someone mentioned that it's clear the Giants don't have a lot of great WRs in the more modern era. This is very true. Those of us who are middle-aged or older remember a time where Pat and John would constantly remind Giants fans that no Giants WR ever went to the Pro Bowl.
Indeed, if you watch the 2000 playoff games, John Madden goes out of his way to say that Amani Toomer is the first Giants receiver he could remember that opposing defensive coordinators said they would need to double.
That's how bad it was for a long time at WR for the Giants.
The guy who I thought was the best (and so did Phil Simms) during the Simms era was Mike Sherrard. But he only last a few games before he badly damaged his hip. He later came back but wasn't quite the same.
The Giants legacy is very deep at certain positions, like RB, OL, LB, QB - but thin at WR. Between Homer Jones and Amani Toomer, who was there? Johnny Perkins? Mike Friede? Floyd Eddings? Chris Calloway? If you look at the Super Bowl teams of 1986 & 1990, the leading receivers both years were the TE Mark Bavaro and the 3rd down backs Tony Galbreath and David Meggett. Amani Toomer's emergance at a big time receiver in 1999 was a revelation at the time, something a whole generation of Giant fans hadn't ever seen before.
In fact, I also recall in the mid-to-late 1990s every time the Giants played Washington it was mentioned during the broadcast that the Redskins played man coverage exclusively because New York's receivers didn't scare them. Talk about disrespect!
I agree with you if you have too many "honorable mentions", the whole project gets diluted. But there were a few cases where it would have been borderline criminal not to mention someone.
Up thread, someone mentioned that it's clear the Giants don't have a lot of great WRs in the more modern era. This is very true. Those of us who are middle-aged or older remember a time where Pat and John would constantly remind Giants fans that no Giants WR ever went to the Pro Bowl.
Indeed, if you watch the 2000 playoff games, John Madden goes out of his way to say that Amani Toomer is the first Giants receiver he could remember that opposing defensive coordinators said they would need to double.
That's how bad it was for a long time at WR for the Giants.
The guy who I thought was the best (and so did Phil Simms) during the Simms era was Mike Sherrard. But he only last a few games before he badly damaged his hip. He later came back but wasn't quite the same.
The Giants legacy is very deep at certain positions, like RB, OL, LB, QB - but thin at WR. Between Homer Jones and Amani Toomer, who was there? Johnny Perkins? Mike Friede? Floyd Eddings? Chris Calloway? If you look at the Super Bowl teams of 1986 & 1990, the leading receivers both years were the TE Mark Bavaro and the 3rd down backs Tony Galbreath and David Meggett. Amani Toomer's emergance at a big time receiver in 1999 was a revelation at the time, something a whole generation of Giant fans hadn't ever seen before.
LOL - Johnny Perkins? Mike Friede? Floyd Eddings? Chris Calloway?
Think of the very ordinary receivers Phil Simms had to throw to! The best of the bunch, other than the few games Sherrard played with Simms, was probably Lionel Manuel. He and Bobby Johnson didn't scare anyone. Yet Phil still threw for 4,000 yards in 1984 with these two and Byron Williams, Zeke Mowatt at TE, and Tony Galbreath out of the backfield. The Giants really didn't have a running game that year...Morris showed some signs of life late in the season but Rob Carpenter was done and Butch Wilfolk never really did anything.
I agree with you if you have too many "honorable mentions", the whole project gets diluted. But there were a few cases where it would have been borderline criminal not to mention someone.
Up thread, someone mentioned that it's clear the Giants don't have a lot of great WRs in the more modern era. This is very true. Those of us who are middle-aged or older remember a time where Pat and John would constantly remind Giants fans that no Giants WR ever went to the Pro Bowl.
Indeed, if you watch the 2000 playoff games, John Madden goes out of his way to say that Amani Toomer is the first Giants receiver he could remember that opposing defensive coordinators said they would need to double.
That's how bad it was for a long time at WR for the Giants.
The guy who I thought was the best (and so did Phil Simms) during the Simms era was Mike Sherrard. But he only last a few games before he badly damaged his hip. He later came back but wasn't quite the same.
Fran Tarkington, Conerly, Tittle, Ron Johnson, all examples of why I could never write an article like this. Limiting honorable mentions makes it even more difficult.
Plus different fans have different biases based on the era they been fans. Older fans like myself hood in equal esteem the guys from previous eras, while the younger generation of fans of course cannot.
You and Larry did a great job, hard to make the case that any of your choices are wrong based on any argument other than personal bias.
Fran Tarkington, Conerly, Tittle, Ron Johnson, all examples of why I could never write an article like this. Limiting honorable mentions makes it even more difficult.
Plus different fans have different biases based on the era they been fans. Older fans like myself hood in equal esteem the guys from previous eras, while the younger generation of fans of course cannot.
You and Larry did a great job, hard to make the case that any of your choices are wrong based on any argument other than personal bias.
I think personal biases tend to skew toward players fans have personally seen play, or have seen multiple times via NFL Films highlights. That's why I recruited knowledgeable people to help me with each era to maintain balance. I personally wanted to put Rob Carpenter on the all time team, but an objective evaluation doesn't justify it.
My own opinions of early era players have been formed by reading through first-person accounts of newspaper articles, which are a revelation. I've learned so much more about early pro football from newspapers than I ever have from any history book, which usually tend to skim over the period preceding the AAFC-NFL merger.
I was never a big Tarkenton fan. Good QB for bad teams. I never
felt like he could march a team down the field with the money on the table like Eli or Elway.. That Minny won the same # of SBs with him as they did with Joe Kapp is damning in my view.
I don't see how anyone can argue for Beckham as an all-time Giant. Flash in the pan is the perfect description. Some great plays, incredible moments but ultimately a waste of enormous talent who didn't play here long enough and was a no show in his only playoff game. A
Plaxico > Beckham.
Meggett's story is disturbing beyond belief. It sucks because he was a great player.
I 100% agree with Toomer and Cruz as your WR picks with Plax honorable mention, while omitting OBJ.
Those 3 have resumes full of big time performances in big games, including playoffs. Toomer in the 2000 and 2007 playoffs, Plax in the Green Bay ice bowl, Cruz in the SF championship game.
OBJ turned in his worst game as a Giant in his one playoff shot
What's the typo?
I dunno
I dunno
His jersey.
I learned quite a bit about the early years. I never knew Al Blozis was a star in the making or Owens was quite the player before being a coach. Then you have Danowski and his ties to the Maras and Lombardi and what a player he was but really not mentioned much on BBI with other Giants QB's.
Thanks again for the efforts putting this together.
You're welcome. That's the reason I love doing this, I'm glad you enjoyed it. The first 30 years of the giants history is fascinating, and unfortunately overlooked and nearly forgotten.
I 100% agree with Toomer and Cruz as your WR picks with Plax honorable mention, while omitting OBJ.
Those 3 have resumes full of big time performances in big games, including playoffs. Toomer in the 2000 and 2007 playoffs, Plax in the Green Bay ice bowl, Cruz in the SF championship game.
OBJ turned in his worst game as a Giant in his one playoff shot
Toomer was unstoppable in the 2002 Wild Card game in San Francisco. If the Giants hadn't melted down that would've been remembered as one of the Giants great performances.
Quote:
The Giants modern era “2nd team” DL is amazing...Justin Tuck, Erik Howard, George Martin, Osi Umenyora.
I 100% agree with Toomer and Cruz as your WR picks with Plax honorable mention, while omitting OBJ.
Those 3 have resumes full of big time performances in big games, including playoffs. Toomer in the 2000 and 2007 playoffs, Plax in the Green Bay ice bowl, Cruz in the SF championship game.
OBJ turned in his worst game as a Giant in his one playoff shot
Toomer was unstoppable in the 2002 Wild Card game in San Francisco. If the Giants hadn't melted down that would've been remembered as one of the Giants great performances.
Yup spot on, omission on my part, but that was Toomer in his prime. Heck of a career.
Very impressive and I refuse to argue about who is better.
Thank you.
For example, I love Eli, but to me Phil Simms was the guy. He brought the Giants back from the depths and played in a much tougher era for quarterbacks.
Hard to argue Eli s statistic s, but in my view Simms was the better quarterback.
For example, I love Eli, but to me Phil Simms was the guy. He brought the Giants back from the depths and played in a much tougher era for quarterbacks.
Hard to argue Eli s statistic s, but in my view Simms was the better quarterback.
Yep, Eli vs Phil was a big debate. There is no wrong answer. Conerly vs Tittle was the same deal. Both sides have valid arguments, hence the need for honorable mentions.
I could quibble with a few of your choices, but I won't. It's a fabulous list. Thanks for this monumental work.
I love Mendenhall, one of my all time favorites, but even I wouldn't put him ahead of Rosey.
Players in the Dark Years often don’t get enough recognition. Glad to see Lockhardt, Mendenhall and VanPelt mentioned. I do believe Ron Johnson was the best RB of that era.
Kyle Rote was one of my favorites but his knees were shot early in his career. He was very popular but not the best.
Quote:
No Ron Johnson, not even as Honorable Mention?
I love Mendenhall, one of my all time favorites, but even I wouldn't put him ahead of Rosey.
Players in the Dark Years often don’t get enough recognition. Glad to see Lockhardt, Mendenhall and VanPelt mentioned. I do believe Ron Johnson was the best RB of that era.
Kyle Rote was one of my favorites but his knees were shot early in his career. He was very popular but not the best.
Rote turned himself into a great flanker, probably as good as Dub Jones for Cleveland and almost as good as Raymond Berry for Baltimore, and he was a team leader. He was an uneleiveably talended back coming out of college and was featured on the cover of Life Magazine. His knees couldnt withstand the pounding after his injuries, and that's the reason the giants drafted Frank Gifford. If Rote hadn't been injured the Giants history of the 1950s is completely different.
Thanks
This + 1. I loved the two-platoon era selections - some great names there. (Including the real Del, of course.)
Howard is almost criminally underrated.
Howard is almost criminally underrated.
They were both great. Burt was a force and had some pass rush in his game before his back problems started. It was another tough call between the two where it could've gone either way.
Quote:
No Ron Johnson, not even as Honorable Mention?
I love Mendenhall, one of my all time favorites, but even I wouldn't put him ahead of Rosey.
Players in the Dark Years often don’t get enough recognition. Glad to see Lockhardt, Mendenhall and VanPelt mentioned. I do believe Ron Johnson was the best RB of that era.
Kyle Rote was one of my favorites but his knees were shot early in his career. He was very popular but not the best.
Ron Johnson was my first "favorite" Giant. I started watching/remembering in 69/70 and he was the man. Great runner. I'd have put him at RB and Gifford at Flanker frankly, but its nitpicking really.
Quote:
In comment 14844925 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
No Ron Johnson, not even as Honorable Mention?
I love Mendenhall, one of my all time favorites, but even I wouldn't put him ahead of Rosey.
Players in the Dark Years often don’t get enough recognition. Glad to see Lockhardt, Mendenhall and VanPelt mentioned. I do believe Ron Johnson was the best RB of that era.
Kyle Rote was one of my favorites but his knees were shot early in his career. He was very popular but not the best.
Ron Johnson was my first "favorite" Giant. I started watching/remembering in 69/70 and he was the man. Great runner. I'd have put him at RB and Gifford at Flanker frankly, but its nitpicking really.
The Giants have a strong heritage at RB, we had to make a lot of tough decisions. Ron Johnson had incredible peak seasons in 1970 and 1972 but injuries cost him games and shortened his career. Gifford spent more time at HB than Flanker, so we felt it best to place him in his natural position - especially when the HB option was a signature play for him, and Lomardi recognized the sweep really allowed Gifford's talent to flourish. Much like Rote, Gifford's ability to transform himself to perform at a high level at a different position underscores who special both of them were.
Quote:
In comment 14845262 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14844925 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
The Giants have a strong heritage at RB, we had to make a lot of tough decisions. Ron Johnson had incredible peak seasons in 1970 and 1972 but injuries cost him games and shortened his career. Gifford spent more time at HB than Flanker, so we felt it best to place him in his natural position - especially when the HB option was a signature play for him, and Lomardi recognized the sweep really allowed Gifford's talent to flourish. Much like Rote, Gifford's ability to transform himself to perform at a high level at a different position underscores who special both of them were.
"how" special both of them were.
Thanks for the taking the effort, reading it brought back some good memories.
When he got hurt, it shook up the whole league. He needs to be on the all-time team.
Thanks for the taking the effort, reading it brought back some good memories.
Lockhart is on the list.
Quote:
Would have liked to see Ron Johnson, and Spider Lockhart mentioned somewhere and other than that my only real disagreement would be that I would place Dave Jennings over Landeta
Thanks for the taking the effort, reading it brought back some good memories.
Lockhart is on the list.
Thanks,
I must be getting old, I missed it.
Kevin Belcher. He was becoming a beast at C in 1984 then had that terrible accident.
Feagles was an excellent punter, but in no way was he in the same class as Jennings and Landetta.
Tarkenton was another one who was debated, I was one of his advocates, but you can't include everyone. Like Ron Johnson, Joe Morris, Jeff Feagles - there were others. One of the decisions we made was not having too many honorable mentions to not dilute its significance.
Conerback was another good debate. We have Erich Barnes and Dick Lynch. Originally I had Willie Williams over Barnes but after discussion Barnes got the nod. A lot of thought went into what we're presenting, everyone had their favorites who didn't make the cut.
Up thread, someone mentioned that it's clear the Giants don't have a lot of great WRs in the more modern era. This is very true. Those of us who are middle-aged or older remember a time where Pat and John would constantly remind Giants fans that no Giants WR ever went to the Pro Bowl.
Indeed, if you watch the 2000 playoff games, John Madden goes out of his way to say that Amani Toomer is the first Giants receiver he could remember that opposing defensive coordinators said they would need to double.
That's how bad it was for a long time at WR for the Giants.
The guy who I thought was the best (and so did Phil Simms) during the Simms era was Mike Sherrard. But he only last a few games before he badly damaged his hip. He later came back but wasn't quite the same.
Up thread, someone mentioned that it's clear the Giants don't have a lot of great WRs in the more modern era. This is very true. Those of us who are middle-aged or older remember a time where Pat and John would constantly remind Giants fans that no Giants WR ever went to the Pro Bowl.
Indeed, if you watch the 2000 playoff games, John Madden goes out of his way to say that Amani Toomer is the first Giants receiver he could remember that opposing defensive coordinators said they would need to double.
That's how bad it was for a long time at WR for the Giants.
The guy who I thought was the best (and so did Phil Simms) during the Simms era was Mike Sherrard. But he only last a few games before he badly damaged his hip. He later came back but wasn't quite the same.
The Giants legacy is very deep at certain positions, like RB, OL, LB, QB - but thin at WR. Between Homer Jones and Amani Toomer, who was there? Johnny Perkins? Mike Friede? Floyd Eddings? Chris Calloway? If you look at the Super Bowl teams of 1986 & 1990, the leading receivers both years were the TE Mark Bavaro and the 3rd down backs Tony Galbreath and David Meggett. Amani Toomer's emergance at a big time receiver in 1999 was a revelation at the time, something a whole generation of Giant fans hadn't ever seen before.
Quote:
I agree with you if you have too many "honorable mentions", the whole project gets diluted. But there were a few cases where it would have been borderline criminal not to mention someone.
Up thread, someone mentioned that it's clear the Giants don't have a lot of great WRs in the more modern era. This is very true. Those of us who are middle-aged or older remember a time where Pat and John would constantly remind Giants fans that no Giants WR ever went to the Pro Bowl.
Indeed, if you watch the 2000 playoff games, John Madden goes out of his way to say that Amani Toomer is the first Giants receiver he could remember that opposing defensive coordinators said they would need to double.
That's how bad it was for a long time at WR for the Giants.
The guy who I thought was the best (and so did Phil Simms) during the Simms era was Mike Sherrard. But he only last a few games before he badly damaged his hip. He later came back but wasn't quite the same.
The Giants legacy is very deep at certain positions, like RB, OL, LB, QB - but thin at WR. Between Homer Jones and Amani Toomer, who was there? Johnny Perkins? Mike Friede? Floyd Eddings? Chris Calloway? If you look at the Super Bowl teams of 1986 & 1990, the leading receivers both years were the TE Mark Bavaro and the 3rd down backs Tony Galbreath and David Meggett. Amani Toomer's emergance at a big time receiver in 1999 was a revelation at the time, something a whole generation of Giant fans hadn't ever seen before.
In fact, I also recall in the mid-to-late 1990s every time the Giants played Washington it was mentioned during the broadcast that the Redskins played man coverage exclusively because New York's receivers didn't scare them. Talk about disrespect!
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I agree with you if you have too many "honorable mentions", the whole project gets diluted. But there were a few cases where it would have been borderline criminal not to mention someone.
Up thread, someone mentioned that it's clear the Giants don't have a lot of great WRs in the more modern era. This is very true. Those of us who are middle-aged or older remember a time where Pat and John would constantly remind Giants fans that no Giants WR ever went to the Pro Bowl.
Indeed, if you watch the 2000 playoff games, John Madden goes out of his way to say that Amani Toomer is the first Giants receiver he could remember that opposing defensive coordinators said they would need to double.
That's how bad it was for a long time at WR for the Giants.
The guy who I thought was the best (and so did Phil Simms) during the Simms era was Mike Sherrard. But he only last a few games before he badly damaged his hip. He later came back but wasn't quite the same.
The Giants legacy is very deep at certain positions, like RB, OL, LB, QB - but thin at WR. Between Homer Jones and Amani Toomer, who was there? Johnny Perkins? Mike Friede? Floyd Eddings? Chris Calloway? If you look at the Super Bowl teams of 1986 & 1990, the leading receivers both years were the TE Mark Bavaro and the 3rd down backs Tony Galbreath and David Meggett. Amani Toomer's emergance at a big time receiver in 1999 was a revelation at the time, something a whole generation of Giant fans hadn't ever seen before.
LOL - Johnny Perkins? Mike Friede? Floyd Eddings? Chris Calloway?
Not exactly murderers row now is it?
Up thread, someone mentioned that it's clear the Giants don't have a lot of great WRs in the more modern era. This is very true. Those of us who are middle-aged or older remember a time where Pat and John would constantly remind Giants fans that no Giants WR ever went to the Pro Bowl.
Indeed, if you watch the 2000 playoff games, John Madden goes out of his way to say that Amani Toomer is the first Giants receiver he could remember that opposing defensive coordinators said they would need to double.
That's how bad it was for a long time at WR for the Giants.
The guy who I thought was the best (and so did Phil Simms) during the Simms era was Mike Sherrard. But he only last a few games before he badly damaged his hip. He later came back but wasn't quite the same.
Fran Tarkington, Conerly, Tittle, Ron Johnson, all examples of why I could never write an article like this. Limiting honorable mentions makes it even more difficult.
Plus different fans have different biases based on the era they been fans. Older fans like myself hood in equal esteem the guys from previous eras, while the younger generation of fans of course cannot.
You and Larry did a great job, hard to make the case that any of your choices are wrong based on any argument other than personal bias.
Fran Tarkington, Conerly, Tittle, Ron Johnson, all examples of why I could never write an article like this. Limiting honorable mentions makes it even more difficult.
Plus different fans have different biases based on the era they been fans. Older fans like myself hood in equal esteem the guys from previous eras, while the younger generation of fans of course cannot.
You and Larry did a great job, hard to make the case that any of your choices are wrong based on any argument other than personal bias.
I think personal biases tend to skew toward players fans have personally seen play, or have seen multiple times via NFL Films highlights. That's why I recruited knowledgeable people to help me with each era to maintain balance. I personally wanted to put Rob Carpenter on the all time team, but an objective evaluation doesn't justify it.
My own opinions of early era players have been formed by reading through first-person accounts of newspaper articles, which are a revelation. I've learned so much more about early pro football from newspapers than I ever have from any history book, which usually tend to skim over the period preceding the AAFC-NFL merger.
I don't see how anyone can argue for Beckham as an all-time Giant. Flash in the pan is the perfect description. Some great plays, incredible moments but ultimately a waste of enormous talent who didn't play here long enough and was a no show in his only playoff game. A