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Larry's revised New York Giants All-Time Team

Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/21/2020 12:02 pm
The debate here was whether or not to create the new fourth era team, but the decision was it was too early to do so (see Larry's detailed intro)...

If you happen to catch any typos, please let us know.


New York Giants All-Time Team - ( New Window )
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RE: Those are great names and from  
truebluelarry : 3/21/2020 5:12 pm : link
In comment 14845234 joeinpa said:
Quote:
56 on I saw those guys play. I enjoyed the read, but I usually don’t like articles like this because of the tough choices.

For example, I love Eli, but to me Phil Simms was the guy. He brought the Giants back from the depths and played in a much tougher era for quarterbacks.

Hard to argue Eli s statistic s, but in my view Simms was the better quarterback.


Yep, Eli vs Phil was a big debate. There is no wrong answer. Conerly vs Tittle was the same deal. Both sides have valid arguments, hence the need for honorable mentions.
joeinpa  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/21/2020 5:21 pm : link
The QBs were the hardest... for all three eras.
Larry, that is a fantastic read !!  
Red Dog : 3/21/2020 5:30 pm : link
I am too young to have seen the Single Wing era and also missed the dawn of the Straight T era, but I saw everybody on that list from 1955 forward.

I could quibble with a few of your choices, but I won't. It's a fabulous list. Thanks for this monumental work.
RE: Great work and glad no OBJ - now on to the nitpicking  
Ivan15 : 3/21/2020 5:31 pm : link
In comment 14844925 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
No Ron Johnson, not even as Honorable Mention?

I love Mendenhall, one of my all time favorites, but even I wouldn't put him ahead of Rosey.

Players in the Dark Years often don’t get enough recognition. Glad to see Lockhardt, Mendenhall and VanPelt mentioned. I do believe Ron Johnson was the best RB of that era.

Kyle Rote was one of my favorites but his knees were shot early in his career. He was very popular but not the best.

RE: RE: Great work and glad no OBJ - now on to the nitpicking  
truebluelarry : 3/21/2020 5:36 pm : link
In comment 14845262 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14844925 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


No Ron Johnson, not even as Honorable Mention?

I love Mendenhall, one of my all time favorites, but even I wouldn't put him ahead of Rosey.


Players in the Dark Years often don’t get enough recognition. Glad to see Lockhardt, Mendenhall and VanPelt mentioned. I do believe Ron Johnson was the best RB of that era.

Kyle Rote was one of my favorites but his knees were shot early in his career. He was very popular but not the best.


Rote turned himself into a great flanker, probably as good as Dub Jones for Cleveland and almost as good as Raymond Berry for Baltimore, and he was a team leader. He was an uneleiveably talended back coming out of college and was featured on the cover of Life Magazine. His knees couldnt withstand the pounding after his injuries, and that's the reason the giants drafted Frank Gifford. If Rote hadn't been injured the Giants history of the 1950s is completely different.
RE: Good stuff!  
Del Shofner : 3/21/2020 5:39 pm : link
In comment 14844969 ChicagoMarty said:
Quote:
that was truly a trip down memory lane.

Thanks


This + 1. I loved the two-platoon era selections - some great names there. (Including the real Del, of course.)
Erik Howard  
mattnyg05 : 3/21/2020 5:47 pm : link
was a better player than Jim Burt from what I’ve watched. Was not around to see them live but I’ve watched a shit ton of old Giants games.

Howard is almost criminally underrated.
RE: Erik Howard  
truebluelarry : 3/21/2020 6:08 pm : link
In comment 14845276 mattnyg05 said:
Quote:
was a better player than Jim Burt from what I’ve watched. Was not around to see them live but I’ve watched a shit ton of old Giants games.

Howard is almost criminally underrated.


They were both great. Burt was a force and had some pass rush in his game before his back problems started. It was another tough call between the two where it could've gone either way.
love your work, Larry  
Moondawg : 3/21/2020 6:14 pm : link
many thanks!
RE: RE: Great work and glad no OBJ - now on to the nitpicking  
PatersonPlank : 3/21/2020 6:22 pm : link
In comment 14845262 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14844925 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


No Ron Johnson, not even as Honorable Mention?

I love Mendenhall, one of my all time favorites, but even I wouldn't put him ahead of Rosey.


Players in the Dark Years often don’t get enough recognition. Glad to see Lockhardt, Mendenhall and VanPelt mentioned. I do believe Ron Johnson was the best RB of that era.

Kyle Rote was one of my favorites but his knees were shot early in his career. He was very popular but not the best.


Ron Johnson was my first "favorite" Giant. I started watching/remembering in 69/70 and he was the man. Great runner. I'd have put him at RB and Gifford at Flanker frankly, but its nitpicking really.
Yup  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/21/2020 6:23 pm : link
Jim Burt versus Erik Howard was an extremely tough call. If Howard stayed healthy, he probably would have been the #1 guy. His play in the 1990 NFC Championship saved that season.
RE: RE: RE: Great work and glad no OBJ - now on to the nitpicking  
truebluelarry : 3/21/2020 6:29 pm : link
In comment 14845309 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
In comment 14845262 Ivan15 said:


Quote:


In comment 14844925 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


No Ron Johnson, not even as Honorable Mention?

I love Mendenhall, one of my all time favorites, but even I wouldn't put him ahead of Rosey.


Players in the Dark Years often don’t get enough recognition. Glad to see Lockhardt, Mendenhall and VanPelt mentioned. I do believe Ron Johnson was the best RB of that era.

Kyle Rote was one of my favorites but his knees were shot early in his career. He was very popular but not the best.




Ron Johnson was my first "favorite" Giant. I started watching/remembering in 69/70 and he was the man. Great runner. I'd have put him at RB and Gifford at Flanker frankly, but its nitpicking really.


The Giants have a strong heritage at RB, we had to make a lot of tough decisions. Ron Johnson had incredible peak seasons in 1970 and 1972 but injuries cost him games and shortened his career. Gifford spent more time at HB than Flanker, so we felt it best to place him in his natural position - especially when the HB option was a signature play for him, and Lomardi recognized the sweep really allowed Gifford's talent to flourish. Much like Rote, Gifford's ability to transform himself to perform at a high level at a different position underscores who special both of them were.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Great work and glad no OBJ - now on to the nitpicking  
truebluelarry : 3/21/2020 6:30 pm : link
In comment 14845314 truebluelarry said:
Quote:
In comment 14845309 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


In comment 14845262 Ivan15 said:


Quote:


In comment 14844925 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:



The Giants have a strong heritage at RB, we had to make a lot of tough decisions. Ron Johnson had incredible peak seasons in 1970 and 1972 but injuries cost him games and shortened his career. Gifford spent more time at HB than Flanker, so we felt it best to place him in his natural position - especially when the HB option was a signature play for him, and Lomardi recognized the sweep really allowed Gifford's talent to flourish. Much like Rote, Gifford's ability to transform himself to perform at a high level at a different position underscores who special both of them were.


"how" special both of them were.
Great list  
steve in ky : 3/21/2020 9:33 pm : link
Would have liked to see Ron Johnson, and Spider Lockhart mentioned somewhere and other than that my only real disagreement would be that I would place Dave Jennings over Landeta

Thanks for the taking the effort, reading it brought back some good memories.
Gifford was as big an offensive threat in the 1950’s as anyone in the  
Ivan15 : 3/21/2020 9:45 pm : link
NFL. Hornung, Jim Brown, McElhenney, Herschel were all in second place. Gifford was the superstar of the league. He played in NY so that helped, but he was still the star.

When he got hurt, it shook up the whole league. He needs to be on the all-time team.
RE: Great list  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/21/2020 10:40 pm : link
In comment 14845433 steve in ky said:
Quote:
Would have liked to see Ron Johnson, and Spider Lockhart mentioned somewhere and other than that my only real disagreement would be that I would place Dave Jennings over Landeta

Thanks for the taking the effort, reading it brought back some good memories.


Lockhart is on the list.
RE: RE: Great list  
steve in ky : 3/21/2020 10:41 pm : link
In comment 14845461 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14845433 steve in ky said:


Quote:


Would have liked to see Ron Johnson, and Spider Lockhart mentioned somewhere and other than that my only real disagreement would be that I would place Dave Jennings over Landeta

Thanks for the taking the effort, reading it brought back some good memories.



Lockhart is on the list.


Thanks,

I must be getting old, I missed it.
Would have liked to see  
Mike in Boston : 3/22/2020 7:28 am : link
An honorable mention for Aaron Thomas, if only for playing well for so many really bad teams.
There was a quarterback.....  
Tark10 : 3/22/2020 8:00 am : link
1967-1971. This was a horrible time for Giant fans. There were few bright spots in this time frame. The one player omitted here who was eventually inducted in to the HOF was Fran Tarkenton. He played most of his career in Minnesota but he did lead the team to a 9-5 record in 1970 with virtually no talent on the team. No mention of him....
great stuff Larry thanks  
Victor in CT : 3/22/2020 8:35 am : link
the Centers from the 80's reminded me again of "what might have been":

Kevin Belcher. He was becoming a beast at C in 1984 then had that terrible accident.
.  
David Dooley : 3/22/2020 10:01 am : link
I attended the Giants training camp when I was around 8 years old. I approached Dave Meggett for an autograph. His response? "I can't, I have to take a nap." Class act.
No love for Feagles?  
widmerseyebrow : 3/22/2020 11:05 am : link
I was trying to find an honorable mention for SS and couldn't really find one. Garnes was a big hitter but was not great in coverage. I also didn't realize how short Gibril Wilson's career was, but he found a way to fill up his stat sheet in his four year here.
RE: No love for Feagles?  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/22/2020 11:09 am : link
In comment 14845763 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
I was trying to find an honorable mention for SS and couldn't really find one. Garnes was a big hitter but was not great in coverage. I also didn't realize how short Gibril Wilson's career was, but he found a way to fill up his stat sheet in his four year here.


Feagles was an excellent punter, but in no way was he in the same class as Jennings and Landetta.
RE: There was a quarterback.....  
truebluelarry : 3/22/2020 11:19 am : link
In comment 14845577 Tark10 said:
Quote:
1967-1971. This was a horrible time for Giant fans. There were few bright spots in this time frame. The one player omitted here who was eventually inducted in to the HOF was Fran Tarkenton. He played most of his career in Minnesota but he did lead the team to a 9-5 record in 1970 with virtually no talent on the team. No mention of him....


Tarkenton was another one who was debated, I was one of his advocates, but you can't include everyone. Like Ron Johnson, Joe Morris, Jeff Feagles - there were others. One of the decisions we made was not having too many honorable mentions to not dilute its significance.

Conerback was another good debate. We have Erich Barnes and Dick Lynch. Originally I had Willie Williams over Barnes but after discussion Barnes got the nod. A lot of thought went into what we're presenting, everyone had their favorites who didn't make the cut.
truebluelarry  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/22/2020 12:22 pm : link
I agree with you if you have too many "honorable mentions", the whole project gets diluted. But there were a few cases where it would have been borderline criminal not to mention someone.

Up thread, someone mentioned that it's clear the Giants don't have a lot of great WRs in the more modern era. This is very true. Those of us who are middle-aged or older remember a time where Pat and John would constantly remind Giants fans that no Giants WR ever went to the Pro Bowl.

Indeed, if you watch the 2000 playoff games, John Madden goes out of his way to say that Amani Toomer is the first Giants receiver he could remember that opposing defensive coordinators said they would need to double.

That's how bad it was for a long time at WR for the Giants.

The guy who I thought was the best (and so did Phil Simms) during the Simms era was Mike Sherrard. But he only last a few games before he badly damaged his hip. He later came back but wasn't quite the same.
RE: truebluelarry  
truebluelarry : 3/22/2020 1:11 pm : link
In comment 14845870 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I agree with you if you have too many "honorable mentions", the whole project gets diluted. But there were a few cases where it would have been borderline criminal not to mention someone.

Up thread, someone mentioned that it's clear the Giants don't have a lot of great WRs in the more modern era. This is very true. Those of us who are middle-aged or older remember a time where Pat and John would constantly remind Giants fans that no Giants WR ever went to the Pro Bowl.

Indeed, if you watch the 2000 playoff games, John Madden goes out of his way to say that Amani Toomer is the first Giants receiver he could remember that opposing defensive coordinators said they would need to double.

That's how bad it was for a long time at WR for the Giants.

The guy who I thought was the best (and so did Phil Simms) during the Simms era was Mike Sherrard. But he only last a few games before he badly damaged his hip. He later came back but wasn't quite the same.


The Giants legacy is very deep at certain positions, like RB, OL, LB, QB - but thin at WR. Between Homer Jones and Amani Toomer, who was there? Johnny Perkins? Mike Friede? Floyd Eddings? Chris Calloway? If you look at the Super Bowl teams of 1986 & 1990, the leading receivers both years were the TE Mark Bavaro and the 3rd down backs Tony Galbreath and David Meggett. Amani Toomer's emergance at a big time receiver in 1999 was a revelation at the time, something a whole generation of Giant fans hadn't ever seen before.
RE: RE: truebluelarry  
truebluelarry : 3/22/2020 1:17 pm : link
In comment 14845958 truebluelarry said:
Quote:
In comment 14845870 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


I agree with you if you have too many "honorable mentions", the whole project gets diluted. But there were a few cases where it would have been borderline criminal not to mention someone.

Up thread, someone mentioned that it's clear the Giants don't have a lot of great WRs in the more modern era. This is very true. Those of us who are middle-aged or older remember a time where Pat and John would constantly remind Giants fans that no Giants WR ever went to the Pro Bowl.

Indeed, if you watch the 2000 playoff games, John Madden goes out of his way to say that Amani Toomer is the first Giants receiver he could remember that opposing defensive coordinators said they would need to double.

That's how bad it was for a long time at WR for the Giants.

The guy who I thought was the best (and so did Phil Simms) during the Simms era was Mike Sherrard. But he only last a few games before he badly damaged his hip. He later came back but wasn't quite the same.



The Giants legacy is very deep at certain positions, like RB, OL, LB, QB - but thin at WR. Between Homer Jones and Amani Toomer, who was there? Johnny Perkins? Mike Friede? Floyd Eddings? Chris Calloway? If you look at the Super Bowl teams of 1986 & 1990, the leading receivers both years were the TE Mark Bavaro and the 3rd down backs Tony Galbreath and David Meggett. Amani Toomer's emergance at a big time receiver in 1999 was a revelation at the time, something a whole generation of Giant fans hadn't ever seen before.


In fact, I also recall in the mid-to-late 1990s every time the Giants played Washington it was mentioned during the broadcast that the Redskins played man coverage exclusively because New York's receivers didn't scare them. Talk about disrespect!
RE: RE: truebluelarry  
PatersonPlank : 3/22/2020 2:10 pm : link
In comment 14845958 truebluelarry said:
Quote:
In comment 14845870 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


I agree with you if you have too many "honorable mentions", the whole project gets diluted. But there were a few cases where it would have been borderline criminal not to mention someone.

Up thread, someone mentioned that it's clear the Giants don't have a lot of great WRs in the more modern era. This is very true. Those of us who are middle-aged or older remember a time where Pat and John would constantly remind Giants fans that no Giants WR ever went to the Pro Bowl.

Indeed, if you watch the 2000 playoff games, John Madden goes out of his way to say that Amani Toomer is the first Giants receiver he could remember that opposing defensive coordinators said they would need to double.

That's how bad it was for a long time at WR for the Giants.

The guy who I thought was the best (and so did Phil Simms) during the Simms era was Mike Sherrard. But he only last a few games before he badly damaged his hip. He later came back but wasn't quite the same.



The Giants legacy is very deep at certain positions, like RB, OL, LB, QB - but thin at WR. Between Homer Jones and Amani Toomer, who was there? Johnny Perkins? Mike Friede? Floyd Eddings? Chris Calloway? If you look at the Super Bowl teams of 1986 & 1990, the leading receivers both years were the TE Mark Bavaro and the 3rd down backs Tony Galbreath and David Meggett. Amani Toomer's emergance at a big time receiver in 1999 was a revelation at the time, something a whole generation of Giant fans hadn't ever seen before.


LOL - Johnny Perkins? Mike Friede? Floyd Eddings? Chris Calloway?

Not exactly murderers row now is it?
PatersonPlank  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/22/2020 2:13 pm : link
Think of the very ordinary receivers Phil Simms had to throw to! The best of the bunch, other than the few games Sherrard played with Simms, was probably Lionel Manuel. He and Bobby Johnson didn't scare anyone. Yet Phil still threw for 4,000 yards in 1984 with these two and Byron Williams, Zeke Mowatt at TE, and Tony Galbreath out of the backfield. The Giants really didn't have a running game that year...Morris showed some signs of life late in the season but Rob Carpenter was done and Butch Wilfolk never really did anything.
RE: truebluelarry  
joeinpa : 3/23/2020 8:44 am : link
In comment 14845870 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I agree with you if you have too many "honorable mentions", the whole project gets diluted. But there were a few cases where it would have been borderline criminal not to mention someone.

Up thread, someone mentioned that it's clear the Giants don't have a lot of great WRs in the more modern era. This is very true. Those of us who are middle-aged or older remember a time where Pat and John would constantly remind Giants fans that no Giants WR ever went to the Pro Bowl.

Indeed, if you watch the 2000 playoff games, John Madden goes out of his way to say that Amani Toomer is the first Giants receiver he could remember that opposing defensive coordinators said they would need to double.

That's how bad it was for a long time at WR for the Giants.

The guy who I thought was the best (and so did Phil Simms) during the Simms era was Mike Sherrard. But he only last a few games before he badly damaged his hip. He later came back but wasn't quite the same.


Fran Tarkington, Conerly, Tittle, Ron Johnson, all examples of why I could never write an article like this. Limiting honorable mentions makes it even more difficult.

Plus different fans have different biases based on the era they been fans. Older fans like myself hood in equal esteem the guys from previous eras, while the younger generation of fans of course cannot.

You and Larry did a great job, hard to make the case that any of your choices are wrong based on any argument other than personal bias.



RE: RE: truebluelarry  
truebluelarry : 3/23/2020 9:11 am : link
In comment 14846708 joeinpa said:
Quote:


Fran Tarkington, Conerly, Tittle, Ron Johnson, all examples of why I could never write an article like this. Limiting honorable mentions makes it even more difficult.

Plus different fans have different biases based on the era they been fans. Older fans like myself hood in equal esteem the guys from previous eras, while the younger generation of fans of course cannot.

You and Larry did a great job, hard to make the case that any of your choices are wrong based on any argument other than personal bias.


I think personal biases tend to skew toward players fans have personally seen play, or have seen multiple times via NFL Films highlights. That's why I recruited knowledgeable people to help me with each era to maintain balance. I personally wanted to put Rob Carpenter on the all time team, but an objective evaluation doesn't justify it.

My own opinions of early era players have been formed by reading through first-person accounts of newspaper articles, which are a revelation. I've learned so much more about early pro football from newspapers than I ever have from any history book, which usually tend to skim over the period preceding the AAFC-NFL merger.
I was never a big Tarkenton fan. Good QB for bad teams. I never  
Victor in CT : 3/23/2020 9:42 am : link
felt like he could march a team down the field with the money on the table like Eli or Elway.. That Minny won the same # of SBs with him as they did with Joe Kapp is damning in my view.

I don't see how anyone can argue for Beckham as an all-time Giant. Flash in the pan is the perfect description. Some great plays, incredible moments but ultimately a waste of enormous talent who didn't play here long enough and was a no show in his only playoff game. A
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