Jim Nagy chimed in with his opinion on Simmons (and DL Brown) vs the OL in the draft. Our very own Sy responded. Thought it was interesting considering we debate this topic here a lot. (Jim Nagy was a scout for 18 years before taking over the Senior Bowl 2 years ago.)
Jim Nagy
@JimNagy_SB
Any team in the top-10 that takes an offensive tackle over Isaiah Simmons or Derrick Brown is clearly drafting for need rather than best player available.
David Syvertsen
@Ourlads_Sy
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1h
Replying to
@JimNagy_SB
What position do you put Simmons at? A Derwin James-type safety? Or Anthony Barr type OLB? A Brian Urlacher type ILB?
Maybe what ARI was hoping Deone Buchanon would be?
My fear with his grade is that the wrong coach gets his hands on him.
Jim Nagy Tweet on Simmons - (
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Simmons is a player with a question mark about even what position he is best suited for and his most likely position, off the ball LB, isn't a premium position.
With Okudah out of the equation and the reality that we probably won't trade out of 4, I'm on the fence between an OT or Simmons. I can see both sides. However, I'm leaning towards not getting cute when you drafted a QB at 6 the year before.
Just like in the 2017 draft, allegedly there were no OTs worth a first round pick. So Reese picked Engram instead of Ramczyk or Cam Robinson.
Thank god for this response. I cant believe how much I am reading on this forum about how "Simmons doesn't have a position" and thus he's being downgraded.
If you want OT at 4, that's fine. That's a philosophical choice and I would be totally fine with securing a franchise tackle.
That said, people really need to make it about the team need as opposed to claiming Simmons isn't an absolutely phenomenal prospect. This isn't Clint Sintim being a "tweener," this guy can do it ALL, wherever there is an opponent of strength. That is an extremely valuable thing to have at your disposal regards of how you organize your hierarchy of positional value.
Leonard's forte in his 2 seasons (28 games) has been big plays across all stat categories:
7 INTs
12 sacks
19 TFL's
15 passes defensed
6 FF
Here's how those numbers compare to Simmons' last 2 years in CFB (30 games):
4 INT's
10 sacks
25.5 TFL's
14 passes defensed
5 FF
It's highly possible and maybe even probable Simmons is more coverage oriented and maybe not quite as good vs. the run, compared to Leonard because he is on another planet athletically (4.38 vs. 4.7 for Leonard at combine) and functionally played more coverage in CFB than Leonard did.
Given our coverage deficiencies and the fact that he can also make plays behind the LOS as a pass rusher, he seems like an ideal fit to bring the kind of dynamic playmaker we've lacked at the 2nd level of the defense since peak Jessie Armstead.
If the staff is looking at Simmons (or any other player) and an OT and feels like, regardless of grade, that one is going to improve the defense and the other is going to improve the offense...they simply must decide which is a greater NEED.
If they think Simmons is Khlil Mack or if Thomas is Tyron Smith, we have a different conversation.
Drafting a need is not reaching. Reaching is reaching.
Just make sure that you improve the team.
Only if that's true (and I'm not saying it isn't) but guys like him can look great almost anywhere in college ball. In the pros how many top players are so good the can play multiple positions. And you still have the problem of properly identifying Simmons best position.
If the staff is looking at Simmons (or any other player) and an OT and feels like, regardless of grade, that one is going to improve the defense and the other is going to improve the offense...they simply must decide which is a greater NEED.
If they think Simmons is Khlil Mack or if Thomas is Tyron Smith, we have a different conversation.
Drafting a need is not reaching. Reaching is reaching.
Just make sure that you improve the team.
Agreed 100%. In you hypothetical if those are the 2 comps their evals lead them to they can't go wrong with either pick and either decision is fine. I'd probably pick whichever guy seems like the best fit in terms of makeup/personality and if all is truly even then you can certainly tip towards positional value/need.
But if on either end their evaluation tilts strongly to a better player, they have to go with that player IMO (as well as anyone else who may be available like Okudah).
Leonard's forte in his 2 seasons (28 games) has been big plays across all stat categories:
7 INTs
12 sacks
19 TFL's
15 passes defensed
6 FF
Here's how those numbers compare to Simmons' last 2 years in CFB (30 games):
4 INT's
10 sacks
25.5 TFL's
14 passes defensed
5 FF
It's highly possible and maybe even probable Simmons is more coverage oriented and maybe not quite as good vs. the run, compared to Leonard because he is on another planet athletically (4.38 vs. 4.7 for Leonard at combine) and functionally played more coverage in CFB than Leonard did.
Given our coverage deficiencies and the fact that he can also make plays behind the LOS as a pass rusher, he seems like an ideal fit to bring the kind of dynamic playmaker we've lacked at the 2nd level of the defense since peak Jessie Armstead.
I was as high on Leonard coming out as anyone.
He was a much better in-traffic mover, much better pure tackler than Simmons. They actually aren't that similar.
I agree with this. Somehow the view that "he's so athletic he can play multiple positions" turned into "he's not great at any one position."
I like many was a big fan of both Devin's last year, both were more traditional LB's who almost unquestionably better players in the box, but neither has that kind of coverage ability and I think Simmons may also have upside as a disruptor on the edge sort of the way Julian Peterson evolved from an athlete into a pass rusher in the NFL - if whatever team drafts him lets him focus more of his time there.
My point is simple, if they have no one graded far above the pack, where do you go?
Additionally, if Brown has the highest grade and the Giants have signed Williams, drafted Lawrence and are high on Tomlinson...does it make sense to take another DT?
Like politics, absolutes and simplification of complicated subjects, IMV, make for bad decisions.
Totally agree with Nagy re his main point.
If Simmons is the BPA but a good margin, take him, if your #1 OT is rated almost as high, take him.
If we draft OL early and often we're bound to hit on at least one with the others being serviceable. If we take OL, DB, WR, TE etc. etc. and we whiff on the OL we're Effed for not only next year but for years to come. If we don't protect Barkley and DJ we've wasted them as well.
My point is simple, if they have no one graded far above the pack, where do you go?
Additionally, if Brown has the highest grade and the Giants have signed Williams, drafted Lawrence and are high on Tomlinson...does it make sense to take another DT?
Like politics, absolutes and simplification of complicated subjects, IMV, make for bad decisions.
First, let me make it clear that I'm all about fixing the OL. It's been nearly a decade. But with regards to quandary on Brown, if he is clearly the BPA, then you take him even if there isn't a need. I know the thread is about Simmons vs. OL, but I don't consider Simmons some can't miss prospect. I want nothing to do with a Jack of All Trades; Master of None especially at 4 or in the top 10.
But if Brown is clearly the BPA over an OL, then you take him. If signing Leonard, then even if the staff likes Tomlinson, it makes no sense to compound the investment on the DL knowing that Tomlinson will also be needing a new contract. Taking Brown allows for better talent at a lower cost turning DL into a strength. Of course, I would still lament the continued decision to not address the OL.
He’s not a strong side linebacker or a week side linebacker or a middle linebacker, he’s a football player who can just as easily get you 15 sacks coming off the edge or up the middle as he can shut down a tight end or bat down 20 balls with his incredible length playing in the middle of the field.
I believe he has Lawrence Taylor-like talent, potentially, and you just don’t pass that up.
Couldn’t agree more. Plus need to get Barkley holes
There is no way we should pass on one of these tackles BPA or not. Just make sure the tackle is BPA for offensive line
1. Becton
2. Ruiz
3. WR Claypool or Golden
Rest of draft can be defense
^ This!
If they see one of the OTs as a stud, then I would take him at #4. But just because they are the best tackle in this class doesn't mean they fix the OL. If you have questions on all of them, you don't use the #4 pick on them because you need somebody to fill the hole.
You pick for need when the prospects are closely rated. But at #4 you need to come away with someone who is a difference maker.
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Every offensive lineman picked early in the first round does not turn out to be Quinten Nelson.
^ This!
If they see one of the OTs as a stud, then I would take him at #4. But just because they are the best tackle in this class doesn't mean they fix the OL. If you have questions on all of them, you don't use the #4 pick on them because you need somebody to fill the hole.
You pick for need when the prospects are closely rated. But at #4 you need to come away with someone who is a difference maker.
A stud LT usually won't last until 4, so Giants are really in a sort of conumdrum, yout are almost certainly reaching for an OT at that point - either a LT 3 othere teams had a sense to pass on or drafting a RT rather high.
I'm sold on Simmons once I heard he lit up the interviews, damn the torpedoes.
Online communities often develop a culture. Bbi is full of imperious forum queens. Youtubers are snarky. Twitter is infested with toxic fucking cockroaches.
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In comment 14846990 VinegarPeppers said:
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Every offensive lineman picked early in the first round does not turn out to be Quinten Nelson.
^ This!
If they see one of the OTs as a stud, then I would take him at #4. But just because they are the best tackle in this class doesn't mean they fix the OL. If you have questions on all of them, you don't use the #4 pick on them because you need somebody to fill the hole.
You pick for need when the prospects are closely rated. But at #4 you need to come away with someone who is a difference maker.
A stud LT usually won't last until 4, so Giants are really in a sort of conumdrum, yout are almost certainly reaching for an OT at that point - either a LT 3 othere teams had a sense to pass on or drafting a RT rather high.
I'm sold on Simmons once I heard he lit up the interviews, damn the torpedoes.
This isn't a normal draft. Even a franchise LT wouldn't go before Burrow and Chase Young, and potentially that #3 pick could also be a QB.
But that's just me. I haven't seen a decent LB on the Giants in so long, I don't miss it till I watch tape of the Parcells years. Crappy LB play sucks, but crappy OL play kills EVERYTHING.
That is a nice point.
Our LBs are average to below average. There aren’t 10 sacks between Xman and Carter.
And I fully agree with your +1 to Sy's comp of Simmons vs Leonard; aside from navigating traffic and not getting caught in it, Leonard avoids the hits, he looks more thickly built than Simmons, who is a player who will likely thrive in space but not in the maelstrom 4yds in and away from LOS.
My prediction is we take an OT at #4.
Gettleman says they love the player and when you have conviction you don't mess around. When asked why he didn't trade down he will say the player would not have made it to where he would have ended up picking.
I can't say he is wrong. We may be surprised, but IMO this is the most likely scenario given past history.
I have Wills worthy of the #4 pick and 3 OT's in the Top 10. Some don't.
If it comes down to it we should take the OT. They have the grades and our OL and OT position in particular is a nightmare right now.
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to Simmons. We have LB's now. Need a OT and hopefully we can trade down and get more assets or have Chase Young land in our laps.
Our LBs are average to below average. There aren’t 10 sacks between Xman and Carter.
I don't see Simmons as a big sack guy in the NFL
I have Wills worthy of the #4 pick and 3 OT's in the Top 10. Some don't.
If it comes down to it we should take the OT. They have the grades and our OL and OT position in particular is a nightmare right now.
Simmons , Okudah and Becton/Wills are all worthy of the top 4.
He’s not a strong side linebacker or a week side linebacker or a middle linebacker, he’s a football player who can just as easily get you 15 sacks coming off the edge or up the middle as he can shut down a tight end or bat down 20 balls with his incredible length playing in the middle of the field.
I believe he has Lawrence Taylor-like talent, potentially, and you just don’t pass that up.
Hes going to get his sacks with well timed and schemed blitzes but aside from that he can do so many things
I have Wills worthy of the #4 pick and 3 OT's in the Top 10. Some don't.
If it comes down to it we should take the OT. They have the grades and our OL and OT position in particular is a nightmare right now.
However, I think DG/Judge do look for a quick trade back to get an additional 2nd. They go best OT first and then go OC with one of the 2nds and the other 2nd goes to best LB especially if Baun is there. They could also opt for another OL/OT. As we all know DG will cluster draft.
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but right my gut says we go OT at #4.
I hope you are prescient. To your comment earlier in the day (I'm way late to this thread) that this draft is not about the present (in your Brown Hornet reply), I agree, but it IS about the present insofar as giving a better team around Jones and SB, protecting their health and pro development, so that is very much about the present even if Giants are a couple of years away from being seriously competitive.
And I fully agree with your +1 to Sy's comp of Simmons vs Leonard; aside from navigating traffic and not getting caught in it, Leonard avoids the hits, he looks more thickly built than Simmons, who is a player who will likely thrive in space but not in the maelstrom 4yds in and away from LOS.
CHP, I have reservations about the OTs being worthy of the #4 pick in terms of value. But, if they've targeted one then they might have to take him at #4, if there's no trade down to their liking. And, I think the trade up for Herbert talk by another team is unlikely, as much as I like him myself.
Simmons has to be kept really clean, as his game is all about speed and running free, which is why the MIKE is his best position talk or play him full time at ILB simply do not add up. I question if those people really understand what the inside backers face play by play in there, or what physical traits they must have to order to be successful.