I apologize for the thread title as I really couldn't come up with something better..
I watched some tape of both Zack Baun and Isaiah Simmons recently. I'm extremely intrigued by both because their names keep popping up here (for good reason) as guys we'd target in the first OR second rounds. We all know what kind of player Simmons is, how versatile he is, and what he can give a defense - IMO he'd be VERY hard to pass up at 4. Baun is an extremely disruptive playmaker and is always around the ball. The one thing that he lacks that Simmons has is the ability to cover downfield. IMO, IF Simmons is there at 4, you RUN to the podium (or in this year's case, hit send immediately). Simmons is a tremendous player, and really can make our defense that much better.
There's a chance though, that he'll be taken. So if we're sitting at 4, with Chase Young and Simmons off the board, there's good reason to believe another team will look to move up to #4 so they can get their QB. So, as many here have said, if a trade BACK can happen, this is the year to do it. I know I've said in many threads here that DG just doesn't do this, but this year, it could make sense, and DG could do it.
So, if Simmons is gone by the time we pick, and so is Chase Young, I would do what I can to move back, get a tackle, and hopefully move up enough towards the back end of the 1st round to draft Baun, who IMO, can also have a huge impact on this defense right away.
So here's what it'd look like:
Jags Trade #9 and #20 to us for the #4. Rationale: They need a QB, just traded Nick Foles, they take Tua or Justin Herbert @ #4 and they want to jump ahead of other QB needy teams. They have the draft capital to do so!
So this is how it may look --
Cin - Burrow
Was - Young
Det - Simmons
Jx - Herbert/Tua
Mia - Herbert/Tua
LA - Jordan Love
Car - Okudah
Ariz - Wills
NYG - Wirfs
Cle - Thomas (OT)
Jets - Becton
LVR - Jeudy
49ers - Kinlaw
Bucs - Brown (DT)
Den - Ruggs
Atl - Fulton or Henderson (DB)
Dal - Chaisson
Mia - Jones (OL)
LVR - Fulton/Henderson (DB)
NYG - Zack Baun
IMO this would be a great scenario. At #9, the pick can be Wirfs, or it can be Thomas, Becton, or Wills, all depending on who the Cardinals take at #8. This way, you get a tremendous defender, and you also get a "play now" OT that can go out there and transform your O-Line.
Oh, and in the second round, if Grant Delpit is there, he's my pick.
Let me know your thoughts1
If Simmons is gone, then Wirfs and Baun would be a very nice consolation prize!!!
As for a trade down, a lot depends on what Detroit does with their pick at three. Nobody is trading up to four until the team holding the third pick is known. This will most likely be a draft night drama.
I am skeptical of Love going that high, but who knows. Regardless, you could put Brown or a WR in there easily.
The key is that it depends on how the Giants have the OT ranked. If they have a couple ranked close together highly, they should be able to get their #2 ranked OT at 9. If they have one OT as a gold jacket guy, and then a large gap, it’s not going to happen.
I would wait till the second round to try and grab Baun, there’s some guys you passed on that we would be gifting to teams behind us.
My draft board at 20:
1. Ceedee Lamb
2. Kenneth Murray
3. Cesar Ruiz
4. Zack Baun
So many mock drafts that year that had the Giants drafting all over the place....
The combo of the positions in either scenario would be OL/ER.
So, Thomas, Gross-Matos
Or, Wirfs, Baun
Or maybe Becton, Chaisson
A trade to with either Jax or LVR could net players a to huge need positions that line up with value.
Better yet in the Top 7 so you have a real chance at one of your top two. IMO if you wait until #9 you could be looking at your third guy and at #12 you may not get any of the top three.
Personally right now my pick at #4 is Wills. I have as high a grade on him as any prospect not named Young or Burrow. That includes Simmons and Okudah.
I like the scenario posed but also didn't think Baun was that high a prospect and more of an early 2nd round guy.
As for a trade down, a lot depends on what Detroit does with their pick at three. Nobody is trading up to four until the team holding the third pick is known. This will most likely be a draft night drama.
I disagree with this statement. I do not think we grabbed a big fish at any position. I think the idea is we tried to grab depth at a reasonable rate so we could draft the BPA at 4 like we should. I do not think Blake Martinez signing as anything to do with the draft.
I have said it before, as bad as we know our O-line is, our defense last year was even worse. You cant afford to completely ignore the defense because you think Simmons will be there to draft, you need to hedge your bet. How bad would it look, if we did not sign a LB, lost golden and ogletree (i know he was bad) and could not draft Simmons.
Yep - and we all sit here an debate every moment until the pick is in on who that BPA is.
Can we just sticky a thread right now called "Simmons vs OT" because I feel like almost every thread turns into that discussion.
Personally if I’m Detroit id seriously think on keeping the pick and take Tua or Herbert if they are sold on those guys on being a true stud. Stafford isn’t winning them anything and now his body is starting to show the wear and tear of the NFL.
Either way a trade to 6 or 9 asking as you gets other 1st this year is ok w me. I love Simmons too but real solid to great tackle and a kid like Murray or Baun would be fine w me
It makes sense from a rebuilding perspective but I just dont see how it happens.
You have a head coach who is coaching for his job in 2020. I don't know about the entire organization, but he is absolutely in win now mode...if they finish bottom 5 again he is gone.
Also, no matter what you do, you can't get rid of Stafford. His contract has the team completely hamstrung from moving him. For better or worse he is the QB in 2020.
I think Detroit goes Simmons or Okudah, and they pray Staffard is healthy in 2020...otherwise that's it for Patricia. A rookie QB helps him none this year.
#6 - Wills/Wirfs
#36 - Winfield/Delpit
#37 - Epenesa, Baun, Davidson, Weaver
Such a loaded draft. Would love another pick or two in Rounds 2 and 3.
It makes sense from a rebuilding perspective but I just dont see how it happens.
You have a head coach who is coaching for his job in 2020. I don't know about the entire organization, but he is absolutely in win now mode...if they finish bottom 5 again he is gone.
Also, no matter what you do, you can't get rid of Stafford. His contract has the team completely hamstrung from moving him. For better or worse he is the QB in 2020.
I think Detroit goes Simmons or Okudah, and they pray Staffard is healthy in 2020...otherwise that's it for Patricia. A rookie QB helps him none this year.
Fans are not happy they canned the last HC he got a raw deal. Patricia is not well recv'd by really anyone and his record sucks also players are not buying in to his lil Bill wannabe shtick. He has to produce to stay he is on the hotseat the only thing that saves him is the brass being cheap and not firing him to save money.
However Stafford is up there in years his wife is a cancer survivor he is looking into the future as should the Lions and letting a kid groom 1 yr under him is not a bad move ESPECIALLY when you are poised to get a excellent shot a blue chipper without tanking and spending extra picks. This allows you to restore hope in the future and reset your cap space by moving on from Matt Stafford if the same W/L trend continues see no reason to think it wont. If it doesn't you let Matt play out his contract, maybe, and go from there. The prudent move is to go QB .... no rookie @ 3 is going to catapult the Lions in the post-season.
#6 - Wills/Wirfs
#36 - Winfield/Delpit
#37 - Epenesa, Baun, Davidson, Weaver
Such a loaded draft. Would love another pick or two in Rounds 2 and 3.
This also turns out great for us. You get the tackle and then have a shot at quality players early in the second. With #36, I take Delpit but Winfield is also a good player.
Epenesa is not a guy that would fit well here. If #37 is between Epenesa, Baun, Davidson, and Weaver - you take Baun and there's no question about that! Davidson is also very intriguing too.
This draft is LOADED!
Quote:
a tackle whether Simmons is drafted at three or not. Our free agency signings kind of dictate that.
As for a trade down, a lot depends on what Detroit does with their pick at three. Nobody is trading up to four until the team holding the third pick is known. This will most likely be a draft night drama.
I disagree with this statement. I do not think we grabbed a big fish at any position. I think the idea is we tried to grab depth at a reasonable rate so we could draft the BPA at 4 like we should. I do not think Blake Martinez signing as anything to do with the draft.
I have said it before, as bad as we know our O-line is, our defense last year was even worse. You cant afford to completely ignore the defense because you think Simmons will be there to draft, you need to hedge your bet. How bad would it look, if we did not sign a LB, lost golden and ogletree (i know he was bad) and could not draft Simmons.
It's not the signing of Martinez that is the signal of what the Giants will likely do on draft day, its what they didn't do in free agency. That is fix the OL. They signed Flemming who is clearly intended as a swing tackle. The Giants will select an OT and have hime play RT this year before replacing Solder next year. The Giants will select their cornerstone LT for the next 10-12 years in the first round and a C sometime thereafter. The question now is what LT will it be and at what slot.
for
#9
Yannick
9-Wills/Becton/wirfs/thomas in that order
36-Ruiz/cushenberry
or
#4
for
#9
#20
mid to late round pick
#9-Wills/Becton/wirfs/thomas in that order
#20-Chaisson/gross matos/baun
#36-Ruiz/cushenberry
Stafford is not real old for a QB and was once durable, but he missed the last half of last season with multiple fractures of his spine (that actually happened the previous season - '18). He also now has a hip.
Broken back + bad hip = early retirement? (not necessarily 2020, but sooner than a healthy franchise QB)
His future has to be in question (and he's also never won a playoff game).
The fact that they're not trading Stafford (and his salary) doesn't mean they won't draft a QB. I think they'd be crazy not to. But what do I know.
I want to ensure we our first choice at the position and the only way I can see doing that is by trading down no lower then the 7th pick, we could still be burned if card were to trade up but rather take that gamble then to trade down past 8 and allow them to possibly grab the OT we have rated highest on our board.
I want to ensure we our first choice at the position and the only way I can see doing that is by trading down no lower then the 7th pick, we could still be burned if card were to trade up but rather take that gamble then to trade down past 8 and allow them to possibly grab the OT we have rated highest on our board.
give to get
would you rather
yannick AND becton(2nd choice)
or
Wills(first choice)
its not even a question IMO lol
or if you dont want yannick
becton PLUS #20
or
Just wills?
I dont think its a big deal to take your second best OT and getting another potential impact player vs #1 choice
Quote:
By most indications the cards are looking to add a OT with their first pick at 8. If that is the case then why trade down PAST 8 to possibly get our 2nd best or 2nd choice OT. For argument sake let's say it was Wills, and we trade down with Jax and get the 9th pick. Cards then draft our guy at the 8th pick so we are essentially settling for who we believe is the 2ND BEST OT in the draft.
I want to ensure we our first choice at the position and the only way I can see doing that is by trading down no lower then the 7th pick, we could still be burned if card were to trade up but rather take that gamble then to trade down past 8 and allow them to possibly grab the OT we have rated highest on our board.
give to get
would you rather
yannick AND becton(2nd choice)
or
Wills(first choice)
its not even a question IMO lol
or if you dont want yannick
becton PLUS #20
or
Just wills?
I dont think its a big deal to take your second best OT and getting another potential impact player vs #1 choice
Too much hypothetical, don't even know if Jax would make that deal. Need to control what you can control, if you want the best OT and you basically know that the Cards need/want an OT as well, then we need to make sure we get the "cream of the crop" OT, not the 2nd best. We have seen that picture too many times already and I would say MOST giant fans at this point want the best at that given position. I am high on Wills and if he becomes an All-Pro then I don't really care what we are going to get in a deal. The best option for us is a trade down to 6 to 7 before cards choose which gets us another draft pick in addition to the best OT on our board, case closed.
I would wait till the second round to try and grab Baun, there’s some guys you passed on that we would be gifting to teams behind us.
My draft board at 20:
1. Ceedee Lamb
2. Kenneth Murray
3. Cesar Ruiz
4. Zack Baun
Ruiz ahead of baun? You have to be kidding me. Ruiz isn’t even the best center in this draft.
The talent gap between Simmons and any other LB in the draft is greater than the talent gap between the OTs we could select. So, unless we get offered a trade down that we can't refuse, I don't see that we should pass on such a talent as Simmons.
I agree we need to upgrade our OL. But the prospects available in the top of round 2 will not be significantly worse than the round 1 OTs, whereas the LBS available in tround 2 will be significantly less talented than Simmons.
I want to ensure we our first choice at the position and the only way I can see doing that is by trading down no lower then the 7th pick, we could still be burned if card were to trade up but rather take that gamble then to trade down past 8 and allow them to possibly grab the OT we have rated highest on our board.
The Cards are so entrenched w making sure Murray doesn’t look like a reach they may go WR at 8. I’ just Wouldn’t want to trade past the Chargers at 6 as that way they still get their pick of The OT they like best almost assuredly
I am not saying that he won't havd a great career, but i don't think most GMs are going to put their jobs on the line for him either