With FA basically over, the Giants have not accomplished what they set out to do. DG said two important things in his combine press conference. First, that they want to use FA to get enough players so they can pick BPA in the draft.
Second, that “Last time I checked it’s really difficult to complete a pass when you’re on your back.” Or in other words our current OL isn’t adequate. Well, at the moment Solder, Fleming and Pulley (Gates?) are all likely starters on the OL. If that is true then they haven’t used FA to get enough players so they can pick BPA in the draft.
Now, to be fair I never thought they could accomplish getting enough players in FA so they could pick BPA in the draft. There were far too many needs and only certain players are available in FA
So, given that you can rarely count on any draft choice past the 2nd round to become an immediate starter, what does that mean for the draft. Are you comfortable with Solder, Fleming and Pulley (Gates?). Can they pass on a tackle in the 1st and a center in the 2nd.
We cant sign everyone and there werent many OL available that are worth the money. I think we were always going to make this an OL heavy draft and im fine with that
For me, it's whether DG will/can trade down and still pick up the OT of his preference (same grade) or will he stay at 4 to pick "his guy."
We cant sign everyone and there werent many OL available that are worth the money. I think we were always going to make this an OL heavy draft and im fine with that
So OLs 1 and 2 even if they're not "BPA".
I also fully expect to be disappointed after the first round of the draft.
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i dont think they failed at all Bill.
We cant sign everyone and there werent many OL available that are worth the money. I think we were always going to make this an OL heavy draft and im fine with that
So OLs 1 and 2 even if they're not "BPA".
they may go BPA but Bill you cant shop hungry right? we cant force it if the OL talent isnt there in FA....
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In comment 14847940 BleedBlue said:
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i dont think they failed at all Bill.
We cant sign everyone and there werent many OL available that are worth the money. I think we were always going to make this an OL heavy draft and im fine with that
So OLs 1 and 2 even if they're not "BPA".
they may go BPA but Bill you cant shop hungry right? we cant force it if the OL talent isnt there in FA....
Agree, but that doesn't answer the question. Stay with who we have on the OL or draft OLs no matter what.
The bottom line is this roster is not a one offseason fix, you've got to look further down the line in terms of finished product. It is quite possible the 2020 Giants return some players who won't be here in 2021, just because they need to field a team in 2020.
I hope they won't force OL picks in the draft, but it's quite possible they could because a number of jobs are a stake.
For me, it's whether DG will/can trade down and still pick up the OT of his preference (same grade) or will he stay at 4 to pick "his guy."
Exactly what I think will happen as well.
The bottom line is this roster is not a one offseason fix, you've got to look further down the line in terms of finished product. It is quite possible the 2020 Giants return some players who won't be here in 2021, just because they need to field a team in 2020.
I hope they won't force OL picks in the draft, but it's quite possible they could because a number of jobs are a stake.
I agree, but to this point and to address bill
picking becton or wills at 4 isnt forcing anything. they are ranked near there. taking a center at 4 is forcing a pick because there arent any ranked THAT highly
so sure, could they go OL over simmons when they have simmons 4 and the OT 6 or whatever...sure but thats not really forcing picks. thats where need meets BPA. lucky for us, i think #4 is a great spot to go OT as need does come close to meeting BPA
The bottom line is this roster is not a one offseason fix, you've got to look further down the line in terms of finished product. It is quite possible the 2020 Giants return some players who won't be here in 2021, just because they need to field a team in 2020.
I hope they won't force OL picks in the draft, but it's quite possible they could because a number of jobs are a stake.
Exactly. I think they'll take OLs at the top of the draft. Can't see an alternative.
Don't tell the Simmons folks that.
I would have liked to see us sign Bulaga or Conklin to play RT, but they both had some question marks and other aggressive suitors
This team is in bad shape. It is not a few players away. The worst thing they could have done - which they have done in recent years - is spend future cap room on overrated unrestricted free agents (they are almost ALL overrated now).
The best way to build a team is to draft well, re-sign the right draft picks on their second deals, and sprinkle in smart, non-cap destroying free agents.
Spoiler alert.... the Giants aren't going to the Super Bowl in 2020. And they probably aren't going to the playoffs. The fact that Judge can't even bring his team together in April is a terrible situation for a new coach too.
If they mortgaged the future on high priced names at Edge and Tackle there would be just as many threads calling it a failure.
(Yes I get it...the Giants have been bad, they only warrant pessimism blah blah). If everything they do is gonna draw the ire of fans, why do they even engage in off-season discussions? It's mind boggling.
exactly. a GM will NEVER say he wasnt highest on our board lol
why would they do that to their newest player? why would they let any info about how they do business out? the PC answer is always, we love him, he is the highest on our board
This team is in bad shape. It is not a few players away. The worst thing they could have done - which they have done in recent years - is spend future cap room on overrated unrestricted free agents (they are almost ALL overrated now).
The best way to build a team is to draft well, re-sign the right draft picks on their second deals, and sprinkle in smart, non-cap destroying free agents.
Spoiler alert.... the Giants aren't going to the Super Bowl in 2020. And they probably aren't going to the playoffs. The fact that Judge can't even bring his team together in April is a terrible situation for a new coach too.
Couldn't agree more. They would have been in a tough spot no matter how FA went as I said. But the OL seemed a priority based on what DG said and that's what is left undone. With Jones and Barkley I can't see how it can't be left as is.
Be ahead of the game: Penei Sewell. Will be a top 3-5 pick next year. Chances are the 2020 NYG will be in the running for him. Yes, I think we’re gonna be top 5 bad again this year.
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They always are eh? Haha.
exactly. a GM will NEVER say he wasnt highest on our board lol
why would they do that to their newest player? why would they let any info about how they do business out? the PC answer is always, we love him, he is the highest on our board
He actually said Jones had the same grade as Allen though...
The other point I was going to make is regarding the draft vs FA. Believe me, teams take a hard look as to what is available in the draft before making FA decision. With this years tackle and C class, I would not be shocked if they felt comfortable finding contributors in the 3rd or 4th round this year. Not the case for MLB where really only 2 players can be looked at as starters in the draft. CB has a big fall off after Okudah.
As for the pass rush, yes having a big name guy is a huge advantage, but sacks are a team effort. Bringing in Clowney to face a triple team is worthless if your other players can't get there. They are obviously taking the approach of building a base on defense before making the big splash. This is the right approach.
Always. I laugh at the BPA mantra. Maybe I m wrong though. Maybe the Giants are just lucky enough each year that when their turn comes in the draft, the BPA just happens to be a position of need.
But the Nate Solder contract is a warning. His signing was a disaster for the team. Throwing money at a problem is usually the smart way to fix something. The guy had never been to a Pro Bowl... not even close... and they made him the highest paid OL in football.
Dallas has gotten weaker.
The Eagles might be team to beat...but I feel we are getting closer...
So I will not have definitive declaration....
yes, the Giants have too many holes to fill in FA. A new staff under current condition is an added hurdle....but we are getting better....we have gotten closer to Dallas and Philadelphia...so who knows.
Let hope.the draft is a home run
He will be an immediate starter at one of the Tackle spots.
If they signed JC, you are paying huge money for both tackles and the guy you drafted doesn't have a spot. If you miss out on the top tackle, then who plays LT next year or the year after?
Center is certainly a glaring hole. Not sure what the plan is there.
Which would probably take a cluster draft with 3 OL in say the first 4(?) rounds. I'm ok with that.
Fackrel and Fleming provide coverage in areas which we will be adding to in the draft.
CB and LB are not the needs they were before FA and edge and Tackle were always gonna need to be doubled up on.
They clearly determined there was better talent at OT and Edge in the draft then FA.
Only thing not addressed at all has been C.
and BPA being a tackle when there are 4 going top 11 is not a stretch.
Has any GM anywhere ever said, "Well we had him ranked lower on our board, but we needed X position so we took him?" I think not.
He will be an immediate starter at one of the Tackle spots.
If they signed JC, you are paying huge money for both tackles and the guy you drafted doesn't have a spot. If you miss out on the top tackle, then who plays LT next year or the year after?
Center is certainly a glaring hole. Not sure what the plan is there.
Exactly what I hope for and I think will happen.
But the Nate Solder contract is a warning. His signing was a disaster for the team. Throwing money at a problem is usually the smart way to fix something. The guy had never been to a Pro Bowl... not even close... and they made him the highest paid OL in football.
You're preaching to the choir Eric but there isn't starting OL talent left in FA that I can see so I think drafting OL early ad often is the only solution.
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they need two tackles, and a C, and swing interior OL in the pipeline.
Which would probably take a cluster draft with 3 OL in say the first 4(?) rounds. I'm ok with that.
It doesn't have to be all done in this draft, that's the short view mistake. Fans look at the season at hand, but building a roster requires a long view beyond 2020.
The Giants are in Year One of their re-build.
That means:
(1) Go gentle with Free Agency;
(2) The Draft means everything;
The Giants have accomplished #1.
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and DG speaks to the media, the player will have been the highest prospect on their board either way.
Has any GM anywhere ever said, "Well we had him ranked lower on our board, but we needed X position so we took him?" I think not.
That's what I was saying.
Never said you could build a team in FA. Just quoted our GM on his perspective and what he said was his priority.
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In comment 14847988 JonC said:
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they need two tackles, and a C, and swing interior OL in the pipeline.
Which would probably take a cluster draft with 3 OL in say the first 4(?) rounds. I'm ok with that.
It doesn't have to be all done in this draft, that's the short view mistake. Fans look at the season at hand, but building a roster requires a long view beyond 2020.
Absolutely Jon but are you trotting out Jones and Barkley behind the current OL. I think they have to make a significant improvement or Jones and Barkley will suffer and that'snot acceptable.
This team is in bad shape. It is not a few players away. The worst thing they could have done - which they have done in recent years - is spend future cap room on overrated unrestricted free agents (they are almost ALL overrated now).
The best way to build a team is to draft well, re-sign the right draft picks on their second deals, and sprinkle in smart, non-cap destroying free agents.
Spoiler alert.... the Giants aren't going to the Super Bowl in 2020. And they probably aren't going to the playoffs. The fact that Judge can't even bring his team together in April is a terrible situation for a new coach too.
^This. We're several years away from being able to compete. I'm not a fan of signing big name FAs. I probably would have passed on Martinez and Bradberry. The good news is that the contracts are front loaded to avoid a lot of bad cap ramifications three years from now.
A work in progress, indeed.
Overdrafted need picks happen every year, in the past 5 years I can remember L.J. Collier, Terrell Burgess, Corey Davis. Keanu Neal, Karl Joseph, Ereck Flowers.
Carroll isn’t afraid to admit it and Reese just became defensive and arrogant when questioned. Eli Apple was one of the worst picks of this decade.
That's the point here. What will the team do given what they have invested already (Jones and Barkley) and what they haven't fixed. DG's words weren't just smoke. He was right about both the things I mentioned in the OP.
Just think what turds Reese would have overpaid in FA?
I couldn't stand what direction this team was going to under Jerry Reese.
With the brand new coaching staff, which I am pretty sure are putting their collective 2 cents in on decision making, I'm confident that the Giants will be a better team in the upcoming season.
A work in progress, indeed.
Yes, indeed.
Dallas has gotten weaker.
The Eagles might be team to beat...but I feel we are getting closer...
So I will not have definitive declaration....
yes, the Giants have too many holes to fill in FA. A new staff under current condition is an added hurdle....but we are getting better....we have gotten closer to Dallas and Philadelphia...so who knows.
Let hope.the draft is a home run
Dallas and Philadelphia are light years ahead of the NYG. And, I hate to say it, but Washington is probably more talented as well and are going to get the draft’s best player by a significant margin.
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which hits the right notes and inspires confidence and optimism ... but, there's no guarantee the supply will match up with demand, and it has not entirely. Watch what adults do, not what they say, as Bill2 would astutely point out.
That's the point here. What will the team do given what they have invested already (Jones and Barkley) and what they haven't fixed. DG's words weren't just smoke. He was right about both the things I mentioned in the OP.
He was, but few answers available in UFA. Now we look to the draft, but also need to acknowledge it could fall similarly to UFA. 31 other teams out there. It could be they draft a tackle starter at #4 and C waits a year, for example.
I try to manage my expectations and recognize there's a lot of moving parts, a lot of competition for the same talent, and not everything will likely be addressed in 2020.
For many others, the heart gets in the way.
We did sign some younger players that can play with us for a long term of 3-4 years. They may not be the best but at least we wont have to replace them next year.
What we need out of the draft is 2 top end starters. It doesnt have to be on the OL, they just have to be positions that we currently have a need. It could come from OT, C, Edge, LB CB and FS. If we can get 2 starters to fill those spots in the draft we can hopefully finish up next season. If we just keep plugging holes of players that we lose like we did this year we are just running on a treadmill on the lowest setting. Not going anywhere.
We need to build the Oline through the draft. That doesn't necessarily mean we have to spend the #4 pick on Oline --I'm of the belief top 5 picks need to be blue chip prospects or franchise QBs-- but if we pass on Oline with our top pick we better be prepared in round 2, or even consider trade up back into round 1, and we better start building the pipeline.
You are a good 2 rounds late on your 4th and 5th names
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But who doesn't ?
Dallas has gotten weaker.
The Eagles might be team to beat...but I feel we are getting closer...
So I will not have definitive declaration....
yes, the Giants have too many holes to fill in FA. A new staff under current condition is an added hurdle....but we are getting better....we have gotten closer to Dallas and Philadelphia...so who knows.
Let hope.the draft is a home run
Dallas and Philadelphia are light years ahead of the NYG. And, I hate to say it, but Washington is probably more talented as well and are going to get the draft’s best player by a significant margin.
Boss, you are such a miserable, negative guy. the skins are better than us?!? GET THE FUCK OUT lol
They arent better than us at all....they have a TON of holes, most importantly, who is their QB?
they are getting young and we are getting a good player at 4...its not like they have 5 firsts and we have no picks....
geez your take is soooo negative and so off base. you wanna say boys n eagles are ahead fine, but skins are not
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In comment 14848029 JonC said:
He was, but few answers available in UFA. Now we look to the draft, but also need to acknowledge it could fall similarly to UFA. 31 other teams out there. It could be they draft a tackle starter at #4 and C waits a year, for example.
I try to manage my expectations and recognize there's a lot of moving parts, a lot of competition for the same talent, and not everything will likely be addressed in 2020.
For many others, the heart gets in the way.
I have no problem with what they did in FA. It's what they weren't able to do that matters now and that's not a criticism. Just hope it breaks our way. It's been a while.
Sum up this FA period..."Yawn"
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In comment 14848006 George from PA said:
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But who doesn't ?
Dallas has gotten weaker.
The Eagles might be team to beat...but I feel we are getting closer...
So I will not have definitive declaration....
yes, the Giants have too many holes to fill in FA. A new staff under current condition is an added hurdle....but we are getting better....we have gotten closer to Dallas and Philadelphia...so who knows.
Let hope.the draft is a home run
Dallas and Philadelphia are light years ahead of the NYG. And, I hate to say it, but Washington is probably more talented as well and are going to get the draft’s best player by a significant margin.
Boss, you are such a miserable, negative guy. the skins are better than us?!? GET THE FUCK OUT lol
They arent better than us at all....they have a TON of holes, most importantly, who is their QB?
they are getting young and we are getting a good player at 4...its not like they have 5 firsts and we have no picks....
geez your take is soooo negative and so off base. you wanna say boys n eagles are ahead fine, but skins are not
I was just about to comment on this! Jeez, what a take.
I have a feeling he would be the same person mid season telling fans to stop praising the team for beating an awful Washington team and then also tell us in the offseason Washington has more talent. Head scratcher.
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In comment 14848006 George from PA said:
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But who doesn't ?
Dallas has gotten weaker.
The Eagles might be team to beat...but I feel we are getting closer...
So I will not have definitive declaration....
yes, the Giants have too many holes to fill in FA. A new staff under current condition is an added hurdle....but we are getting better....we have gotten closer to Dallas and Philadelphia...so who knows.
Let hope.the draft is a home run
Dallas and Philadelphia are light years ahead of the NYG. And, I hate to say it, but Washington is probably more talented as well and are going to get the draft’s best player by a significant margin.
Boss, you are such a miserable, negative guy. the skins are better than us?!? GET THE FUCK OUT lol
They arent better than us at all....they have a TON of holes, most importantly, who is their QB?
they are getting young and we are getting a good player at 4...its not like they have 5 firsts and we have no picks....
geez your take is soooo negative and so off base. you wanna say boys n eagles are ahead fine, but skins are not
While I acknowledge they have holes, as do we, they can hang their hat on a very good front 7 on defense. It could be scary good in 2020. Their secondary needs help, yes. Their OL is going to need to be rebuilt, but they appear to have better building blocks than the NYG. Their offensive weaponry is average and yes Haskins needs to prove it, but his last 2 starts were promising. And while I’m glad he didn’t come here, Rivera is a coach who knows what he’s doing. It’s close between us. I’m giving us 2 wins over them right now, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we split.
It is possible that he lands immediate starters at OT and OC in the draft, but that is a big ask, and would almost certainly mean our needs at ER and WR are pushed down in priority.
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I can see them being comfortable with any of the top 4 centers in the draft as long as there is value. 2nd- Ruiz 3rd- Biadasz 4th- Cushenberry 5th- Hennessy. They have a lot of options.
You are a good 2 rounds late on your 4th and 5th names
Dave-Te' Thomas said yesterday on his podcast about centers, that the only one he'd consider is Hennessy, says he a future pro bowler. The rest he wouldn't bother with until day 3. He says it's a bad year for centers
RB yards before contact of all NFL teams - ( New Window )
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In comment 14848056 The_Boss said:
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In comment 14848006 George from PA said:
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But who doesn't ?
Dallas has gotten weaker.
The Eagles might be team to beat...but I feel we are getting closer...
So I will not have definitive declaration....
yes, the Giants have too many holes to fill in FA. A new staff under current condition is an added hurdle....but we are getting better....we have gotten closer to Dallas and Philadelphia...so who knows.
Let hope.the draft is a home run
Dallas and Philadelphia are light years ahead of the NYG. And, I hate to say it, but Washington is probably more talented as well and are going to get the draft’s best player by a significant margin.
Boss, you are such a miserable, negative guy. the skins are better than us?!? GET THE FUCK OUT lol
They arent better than us at all....they have a TON of holes, most importantly, who is their QB?
they are getting young and we are getting a good player at 4...its not like they have 5 firsts and we have no picks....
geez your take is soooo negative and so off base. you wanna say boys n eagles are ahead fine, but skins are not
While I acknowledge they have holes, as do we, they can hang their hat on a very good front 7 on defense. It could be scary good in 2020. Their secondary needs help, yes. Their OL is going to need to be rebuilt, but they appear to have better building blocks than the NYG. Their offensive weaponry is average and yes Haskins needs to prove it, but his last 2 starts were promising. And while I’m glad he didn’t come here, Rivera is a coach who knows what he’s doing. It’s close between us. I’m giving us 2 wins over them right now, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we split.
YOU ARE NUTS.
first off giants DL is lining up to be just as good as washingtons. we need LBers and our front is right there.
their secondary IS A JOKE bad and they just lost probably their best tow corners which isnt saying much.
on offense they have mcclaurin and scherf thats about it. they need a RB, OL, TE, more WRs and the MOST IMPORTANT POSITION ON THE TEAM. QB...
they are NOT in a better situation than us at all. that viewpoint is a wildly negative view and honestly inaccurate
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In comment 14848066 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 14848056 The_Boss said:
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In comment 14848006 George from PA said:
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But who doesn't ?
Dallas has gotten weaker.
The Eagles might be team to beat...but I feel we are getting closer...
So I will not have definitive declaration....
yes, the Giants have too many holes to fill in FA. A new staff under current condition is an added hurdle....but we are getting better....we have gotten closer to Dallas and Philadelphia...so who knows.
Let hope.the draft is a home run
Dallas and Philadelphia are light years ahead of the NYG. And, I hate to say it, but Washington is probably more talented as well and are going to get the draft’s best player by a significant margin.
Boss, you are such a miserable, negative guy. the skins are better than us?!? GET THE FUCK OUT lol
They arent better than us at all....they have a TON of holes, most importantly, who is their QB?
they are getting young and we are getting a good player at 4...its not like they have 5 firsts and we have no picks....
geez your take is soooo negative and so off base. you wanna say boys n eagles are ahead fine, but skins are not
While I acknowledge they have holes, as do we, they can hang their hat on a very good front 7 on defense. It could be scary good in 2020. Their secondary needs help, yes. Their OL is going to need to be rebuilt, but they appear to have better building blocks than the NYG. Their offensive weaponry is average and yes Haskins needs to prove it, but his last 2 starts were promising. And while I’m glad he didn’t come here, Rivera is a coach who knows what he’s doing. It’s close between us. I’m giving us 2 wins over them right now, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we split.
YOU ARE NUTS.
first off giants DL is lining up to be just as good as washingtons. we need LBers and our front is right there.
their secondary IS A JOKE bad and they just lost probably their best tow corners which isnt saying much.
on offense they have mcclaurin and scherf thats about it. they need a RB, OL, TE, more WRs and the MOST IMPORTANT POSITION ON THE TEAM. QB...
they are NOT in a better situation than us at all. that viewpoint is a wildly negative view and honestly inaccurate
We won’t know until next season. That’s the last I’ll say on the Redskins.
And if DG said he was going to fill up his entire Roster via free agent signings (not sure he did) then he wasn't thinking.
Which isn't a surprise.
RB yards before contact 2019 - ( New Window )
It is possible that he lands immediate starters at OT and OC in the draft, but that is a big ask, and would almost certainly mean our needs at ER and WR are pushed down in priority.
Thanks. And I thought FA went pretty well given what was out there. I think an OT in the 1st seems like a good pick from a value and need perspective. Hope there is an OC in the 2nd that is the same.
It's fucking madness.
Sounds logical and familiar.
Sounds logical and familiar.
Sounds revolutionary to me.
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In comment 14847961 JonC said:
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and DG speaks to the media, the player will have been the highest prospect on their board either way.
Has any GM anywhere ever said, "Well we had him ranked lower on our board, but we needed X position so we took him?" I think not.
That's what I was saying.
Apologies if I misinterpreted, but it sounded like the all-to-familiar gratuitous shot at DG. He's hardly perfect, but I kind of like what he's done overall. Now that there's a set direction (thanks Judge, I think) I can see DG rising to the occasion. Nothing necessarily spectacular, but solid gains in the Draft.
It's fucking madness.
Did you bother to actually read the OP. Just what about anything I said is "fucking madness".
This team is in bad shape. It is not a few players away. The worst thing they could have done - which they have done in recent years - is spend future cap room on overrated unrestricted free agents (they are almost ALL overrated now).
The best way to build a team is to draft well, re-sign the right draft picks on their second deals, and sprinkle in smart, non-cap destroying free agents.
Spoiler alert.... the Giants aren't going to the Super Bowl in 2020. And they probably aren't going to the playoffs. The fact that Judge can't even bring his team together in April is a terrible situation for a new coach too.
Not only will they not make the playoffs, their record is not likely to be any better next season(2020). They have finally embraced a complete tear down. The guys signed this year are to put a team on the field and start to install Judge's offense and defense. Hopefully those signed will be part of the solution. If they are not, the way the contracts are structured they can be let go without penalty.
I am very much a Simmons fan, but I am hoping he can work a deal for a short trade back for at least a 2nd round pick and get OT, OC and OLB/ER.
No matter what the lip service, need is, in my unqualified opinion, ALWAYS a factor in draft picks. Let's hope that DG et al pick Beasts who also qualifiy as Beauties ;).
Like a lot of people on here, I'm hugely impressed with Joe Judge, but I imagine it might have been a sobering experience when he ran the rub over the Giants roster and saw how much improvement is required. So, I'm not expecting a huge turnaround, but if we could get to 7-9 or even 8-8, that would be very, very encouraging.
And if Gettleman could then retire at the end of the season, that would be the cherry.
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I’m ready. Are you?
Like a lot of people on here, I'm hugely impressed with Joe Judge, but I imagine it might have been a sobering experience when he ran the rub over the Giants roster and saw how much improvement is required. So, I'm not expecting a huge turnaround, but if we could get to 7-9 or even 8-8, that would be very, very encouraging.
And if Gettleman could then retire at the end of the season, that would be the cherry.
7 wins would be a wildly successful season in my eyes. The thing is, I have a very hard time seeing where you get 7 wins when you look at the 12 games on our schedule that aren’t vs Washington, Chicago, and Cincinnati. Just for shits and giggles: say we go 4-0 in those games. Are you confident in going 3-9 vs Arizona, Philadelphia, Dallas, SF, LA, Seattle, Tampa, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Cleveland?
The funny thing is, I can't force them to make the right decision like take an OT. I can only type it here for you all.
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and a Center?
Sounds logical and familiar.
Sounds revolutionary to me.
At least more are seeing the light.
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of replies for a guy who posts about failing FA before the period is over or the players have ever taken the field.
It's fucking madness.
Did you bother to actually read the OP. Just what about anything I said is "fucking madness".
Are you fucking kidding me?
This right here qualifies:
Not only is FA not complete, but you have no idea what the Giants "set out to do".
- Judge did not go into the interview insisting on some big splash names and a breakout possibility in year one other wise their behavior would be different. Seems reading speculative tea leaves he either promoted or agreed to a step by step solid foundation for the years ahead.
- Looks like each FA they went after was the result of analysis not reacting to a deal a day market
- Looks like they had a framework to preserve cap flexibility and to drop guys who did not perform early with minimal consequences...so the structure of the deals support a solid rather than splashy/risky foundation for the next few years
- There is evidence that they set a price limit on guys and did not budge ( a BB trait) on their valuation. (for example: Moore/Clowney)
- They generally have stayed away from injured or older ( exception Dion Lewis). Again, minimizing risk
Pretty much all the same things almost all of BBI has been saying for several years.
SO so far this year they went out of the typical hiring and adopted a very thoughtful approach to re-building. Very un Jints Central. Im sure we will look to confirm our bias, but the trends so far mostly confirm to me a shift towards smart and sane. About time.
I don't care that much about this years W/L record. I want to see in the second half of the season:
A) Games won because we adjusted during the game
B) A surprise victory or two because we out gamed the opposition
C) Some surprising 4th round to UDFA contributors.
D) Fewer mistakes and a few more out prepared them Malcom Butler in exactly the right place kinds of plays.
I dunno,
But both endings are true enough
if not we trade down and draft a OT
Overdrafted need picks happen every year, in the past 5 years I can remember L.J. Collier, Terrell Burgess, Corey Davis. Keanu Neal, Karl Joseph, Ereck Flowers.
Carroll isn’t afraid to admit it and Reese just became defensive and arrogant when questioned. Eli Apple was one of the worst picks of this decade.
Hubris from two SBs, not only for Reese but the whole org.
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In comment 14848141 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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of replies for a guy who posts about failing FA before the period is over or the players have ever taken the field.
It's fucking madness.
Did you bother to actually read the OP. Just what about anything I said is "fucking madness".
Are you fucking kidding me?
This right here qualifies:
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With FA basically over, the Giants have not accomplished what they set out to do
Not only is FA not complete, but you have no idea what the Giants "set out to do".
Actually, we do know because DG said what they set out to do in his combine press conference as I explained in the OP. That you seem to want to ignore that is your problem. Further, FA, for all intents and purposes as it relates to the draft, is over as no one the can sign now will impact our top draft picks. So, both the idea that we know what they set out to do and that FA is basically over are true. Ya got anything else.
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I’m ready. Are you?
Like a lot of people on here, I'm hugely impressed with Joe Judge, but I imagine it might have been a sobering experience when he ran the rub over the Giants roster and saw how much improvement is required. So, I'm not expecting a huge turnaround, but if we could get to 7-9 or even 8-8, that would be very, very encouraging.
And if Gettleman could then retire at the end of the season, that would be the cherry.
I hope the plan is to make Garrett the GM and thats the 4D chess move of why he was brought here, otherwise its a bit strange he is our OC. Use his big old Princeton brain where it belongs.
Is his name Gabbagul or something like that?
Are you going to be another moron who puts absolutes to things said in press conferences? Have yo not seen the pitfalls that presents?
I'm not ignoring anything. Thinking a GM is stating a plan for every other team to hear is the ignorance. And you seem proud to flaunt it.
I’d like to comment on this only.
On paper, you are right....Solder, Fleming, and Gates doesn’t look formidable enough to be our starting tackles, and Pulley doesn’t look good enough to be our starting center. So, based on what you are saying, you believe it is imperative the Gmen go OT and C in rounds one and two. You can make that argument, but I have a different perspective that I hope plays out......
I think Gates will start somewhere...either RT or C. I think that depends on who we draft in rounds one and two. I believe we only need to draft one stud lineman, in either round one or round two. Since we pick high in round two, that is almost like a low end first round pick. If we draft a TACKLE in the first two rounds, then Solder and the draft pick play tackle while Gates moves to center. I’m not sure how much experience Gates has a center but I thought I read he could play that position and is versatile.
Bottom line....we don’t have to draft two OL guys first....just one. Gates plugs in somewhere. As for Fleming....we is a very good swing guy who can fill in admirably if needed. I’m not sure he can play RT though.
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Actually, we do know because DG said what they set out to do in his combine press conference as I explained in the OP. That you seem to want to ignore that is your problem
Are you going to be another moron who puts absolutes to things said in press conferences? Have yo not seen the pitfalls that presents?
I'm not ignoring anything. Thinking a GM is stating a plan for every other team to hear is the ignorance. And you seem proud to flaunt it.
First of all that they wanted to sign enough in FA to be able to pick BPA is the goal of every team in FA and obvious on it's face. To try and deny that is plain stupid. That they wanted to fix the OL is equally as obvious and equally stupid to try and deny.
The bottom line fat man is that you criticized the
OP without reading it which only a fucking idiot would do. Now, you're trying to cover you ass by denying plainly obvious things that only a fucking asshole would try and deny. Quite a parlay there fat man. Showing you're a fucking idiot and a fucking asshole in just a couple of posts.
I’d like to comment on this only.
On paper, you are right....Solder, Fleming, and Gates doesn’t look formidable enough to be our starting tackles, and Pulley doesn’t look good enough to be our starting center. So, based on what you are saying, you believe it is imperative the Gmen go OT and C in rounds one and two. You can make that argument, but I have a different perspective that I hope plays out......
I think Gates will start somewhere...either RT or C. I think that depends on who we draft in rounds one and two. I believe we only need to draft one stud lineman, in either round one or round two. Since we pick high in round two, that is almost like a low end first round pick. If we draft a TACKLE in the first two rounds, then Solder and the draft pick play tackle while Gates moves to center. I’m not sure how much experience Gates has a center but I thought I read he could play that position and is versatile.
Bottom line....we don’t have to draft two OL guys first....just one. Gates plugs in somewhere. As for Fleming....we is a very good swing guy who can fill in admirably if needed. I’m not sure he can play RT though.
That's all fair enough 5BS. however, I'm just tired out of trying to just get by on the OL. Sure, Gates could work out at C or RT but how much are you willing to risk if he doesn't. Another year with a Halapio/Pulley/Remmers level talent starting on the OL. No option if Solder turns in another dismal performance. I'd like to see the future of the OL acquired this year. No more waiting around and hoping for the best.
In the sports world the goal of a FO is to talk but say nothing.
This is especially true before a competitive lottery or auction.
Taking the literal word any GM in a major sport strikes me as valid less than 50% of the time.
Imo
OP without reading it which only a fucking idiot would do
I read every fucking word in the OP. And it is a terrible post built off of a faulty premise. From a terrible poster.
You are literally saying the Giants failed in FA. And you're saying that it is because they didn't do what Gettleman said in a press conference. The first point is unknown and the second point is taking the words from a press conference and trying to make them binding.
One is an error of logic. The other is an error of ignorance, but based on your last rambling tirade - you are proud to be a fucking moron.
hope that works out for you, Boss.
Yes, I like what they did but what they didn't do is important as well. There seems be few options going forward and that is worrisome but the talent looks like it's out there so that's good, too.
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The bottom line fat man is that you criticized the
OP without reading it which only a fucking idiot would do
I read every fucking word in the OP. And it is a terrible post built off of a faulty premise. From a terrible poster.
You are literally saying the Giants failed in FA. And you're saying that it is because they didn't do what Gettleman said in a press conference. The first point is unknown and the second point is taking the words from a press conference and trying to make them binding.
One is an error of logic. The other is an error of ignorance, but based on your last rambling tirade - you are proud to be a fucking moron.
hope that works out for you, Boss.
You're full of shit fat man. There are dozens of posts here based on the OP. No faulty premises or errors in logic. However, you're still trying to cover your ass by denying the obvious. It's got it's own kind of special humor though so do keep it up.
I’d like to comment on this only.
On paper, you are right....Solder, Fleming, and Gates doesn’t look formidable enough to be our starting tackles, and Pulley doesn’t look good enough to be our starting center. So, based on what you are saying, you believe it is imperative the Gmen go OT and C in rounds one and two. You can make that argument, but I have a different perspective that I hope plays out......
I think Gates will start somewhere...either RT or C. I think that depends on who we draft in rounds one and two. I believe we only need to draft one stud lineman, in either round one or round two. Since we pick high in round two, that is almost like a low end first round pick. If we draft a TACKLE in the first two rounds, then Solder and the draft pick play tackle while Gates moves to center. I’m not sure how much experience Gates has a center but I thought I read he could play that position and is versatile.
Bottom line....we don’t have to draft two OL guys first....just one. Gates plugs in somewhere. As for Fleming....we is a very good swing guy who can fill in admirably if needed. I’m not sure he can play RT though.
That is a hell of an Oline strategy you laid out.
It’s almost as if you have been working in the Giant front office for the past decade.
In the sports world the goal of a FO is to talk but say nothing.
This is especially true before a competitive lottery or auction.
Taking the literal word any GM in a major sport strikes me as valid less than 50% of the time.
Imo
Bill. Thanks. I do get that but there is nothing ground breaking or earth shattering about what DG said. We all knew those things before he said them. Is there something about them wanting to put themselves in a position to draft BPA or that the OL needs fixing that was news. No, there wasn't. Just trying to get folks opinions about what comes next.
This team is in bad shape. It is not a few players away. The worst thing they could have done - which they have done in recent years - is spend future cap room on overrated unrestricted free agents (they are almost ALL overrated now).
The best way to build a team is to draft well, re-sign the right draft picks on their second deals, and sprinkle in smart, non-cap destroying free agents.
Spoiler alert.... the Giants aren't going to the Super Bowl in 2020. And they probably aren't going to the playoffs. The fact that Judge can't even bring his team together in April is a terrible situation for a new coach too.
What Eric said! This is as basic a truth about the current Giants as you will find. Case closed.
I think that goes too far. We added good to very good players at all three levels of the defense. Home run type players weren't a smart get this year.
Why do I suspect most of what you know about football came from the fantasy leagues ?
Its also possible that they have the exact same goals and have decided the rest is best done through the draft.
In which case the real question will shortly be: Did the Giants fail in the 2020 talent Acquisition cycle?
Im sure we will debate that endlessly in the months ahead
Of course we will really know that answer in two years.
Anyway, just the ways I am thinking about it.
Take care
Its also possible that they have the exact same goals and have decided the rest is best done through the draft.
In which case the real question will shortly be: Did the Giants fail in the 2020 talent Acquisition cycle?
Im sure we will debate that endlessly in the months ahead
Of course we will really know that answer in two years.
Anyway, just the ways I am thinking about it.
Take care
You as well.
The coaching staff needs to be the reason we are better. Even if your not sold on Martinez Bradbury and Fackrel being better then Ogletree, Jenkins and Martin
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We supposedly did pretty well in FA so far
Yes, I like what they did but what they didn't do is important as well. There seems be few options going forward and that is worrisome but the talent looks like it's out there so that's good, too.
Bill, we are still 1-2 seasons away but this was a good foundational FA
Going in with north of 175M in space over 20/21 I would like to see him add 3 multi-year starters to the roster.
With all the speak of curves recently, at some point Gettleman needs to break the talent curve with veterans acquisitions.
You have to draft well and acquire vets well. You just don't get enough picks to rely on that solely for your core.
In 2018 I believe he added 1 veteran starter who is still on the roster (Solder). In 2019, I believe he added 2 via UFA (Tate, Mayo), and 2 via trade (Peppers, Williams).
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In comment 14848640 montanagiant said:
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We supposedly did pretty well in FA so far
Yes, I like what they did but what they didn't do is important as well. There seems be few options going forward and that is worrisome but the talent looks like it's out there so that's good, too.
Bill, we are still 1-2 seasons away but this was a good foundational FA
I certainly agree and said essentially that in the OP. Remember though we have Jones and Barkley and they will be severely compromised without a competent OL. That's a problem.
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In comment 14848662 BillT said:
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In comment 14848640 montanagiant said:
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We supposedly did pretty well in FA so far
Yes, I like what they did but what they didn't do is important as well. There seems be few options going forward and that is worrisome but the talent looks like it's out there so that's good, too.
Bill, we are still 1-2 seasons away but this was a good foundational FA
I certainly agree and said essentially that in the OP. Remember though we have Jones and Barkley and they will be severely compromised without a competent OL. That's a problem.
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We are not substantially any better today than last season. We had the most cap space in team history just about and added zero game changers. Very discouraging times to be a Giants fan. I’ll get ridiculed for being honest but oh well.
Why do I suspect most of what you know about football came from the fantasy leagues ?
That’s cute. But I’m actually a 3rd generation die hard fan. I’m just sick of losing and I’m not a blind loyalist. If it looks like shit, smells like shit, it’s not gonna turn into a brownie by sprinkling some sugar on it.
Blake Martinez that is eerily similar to their signing of Antonio Pierce in 2005.
James Bradberry - the second best CB available in FA who fills our biggest need in the secondary who will be in his prime for his entire contract here.
Kyler Fackrell - 1 year prove it deal for a guy who had 10.5 sacks two seasons ago playing for our new DC. Could be this years Golden.
Levine Toilolo - huge blocking TE to replace Ellison who disappointed as a blocker. He’s actually a better blocker than Ellison and should contribute more as a receiver here. He wasn’t used much as a receiver in SF because they have the best TE in football ahead of him. Toilolo’s presence will allow Engram to run more routes. This is a very underrated signing.
Cam Fleming - is familiar with Garrett’s offense obviously which will be more important if offseason activities are lost due to COVID-19. Fleming is a good swing tackle who won’t embarrass himself if he has to start. Will compete with a 1st/2nd round pick and Nick Gates for the RT job but will end up on the bench.
Colt McCoy - an intelligent, experienced backup QB who will serve as the mentor for Jones. It wouldn’t surprise me if he spends 2-3 more years here.
Nate Ebner - a very good special teams player. The special teams have improved significantly under McGauhey and they could become one of the better units in the NFL. Last year Cody Core made an immediate impact on special teams and hopefully Ebner will as well.
Blake Martinez that is eerily similar to their signing of Antonio Pierce in 2005.
James Bradberry - the second best CB available in FA who fills our biggest need in the secondary who will be in his prime for his entire contract here.
Kyler Fackrell - 1 year prove it deal for a guy who had 10.5 sacks two seasons ago playing for our new DC. Could be this years Golden.
Levine Toilolo - huge blocking TE to replace Ellison who disappointed as a blocker. He’s actually a better blocker than Ellison and should contribute more as a receiver here. He wasn’t used much as a receiver in SF because they have the best TE in football ahead of him. Toilolo’s presence will allow Engram to run more routes. This is a very underrated signing.
Cam Fleming - is familiar with Garrett’s offense obviously which will be more important if offseason activities are lost due to COVID-19. Fleming is a good swing tackle who won’t embarrass himself if he has to start. Will compete with a 1st/2nd round pick and Nick Gates for the RT job but will end up on the bench.
Colt McCoy - an intelligent, experienced backup QB who will serve as the mentor for Jones. It wouldn’t surprise me if he spends 2-3 more years here.
Nate Ebner - a very good special teams player. The special teams have improved significantly under McGauhey and they could become one of the better units in the NFL. Last year Cody Core made an immediate impact on special teams and hopefully Ebner will as well.
Jay on the Island -- I can see why BBIers are not thrilled with what the Giants have done so far. Personally, I've got no problem, but there were different approaches the Giants could have taken!
For example, look no further than our cross-town rivals. Their first year GM, Joe Douglas resisted throwing around big bucks, but look what he may well have accomplished under the radar! He has almost entirely re-built his offensive line with:
Center Connor McGovern (we could have really used this guy)
Offensive Guard Greg Van Roten
Left Tackle George Fant
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They signed:
Blake Martinez that is eerily similar to their signing of Antonio Pierce in 2005.
James Bradberry - the second best CB available in FA who fills our biggest need in the secondary who will be in his prime for his entire contract here.
Kyler Fackrell - 1 year prove it deal for a guy who had 10.5 sacks two seasons ago playing for our new DC. Could be this years Golden.
Levine Toilolo - huge blocking TE to replace Ellison who disappointed as a blocker. He’s actually a better blocker than Ellison and should contribute more as a receiver here. He wasn’t used much as a receiver in SF because they have the best TE in football ahead of him. Toilolo’s presence will allow Engram to run more routes. This is a very underrated signing.
Cam Fleming - is familiar with Garrett’s offense obviously which will be more important if offseason activities are lost due to COVID-19. Fleming is a good swing tackle who won’t embarrass himself if he has to start. Will compete with a 1st/2nd round pick and Nick Gates for the RT job but will end up on the bench.
Colt McCoy - an intelligent, experienced backup QB who will serve as the mentor for Jones. It wouldn’t surprise me if he spends 2-3 more years here.
Nate Ebner - a very good special teams player. The special teams have improved significantly under McGauhey and they could become one of the better units in the NFL. Last year Cody Core made an immediate impact on special teams and hopefully Ebner will as well.
Jay on the Island -- I can see why BBIers are not thrilled with what the Giants have done so far. Personally, I've got no problem, but there were different approaches the Giants could have taken!
For example, look no further than our cross-town rivals. Their first year GM, Joe Douglas resisted throwing around big bucks, but look what he may well have accomplished under the radar! He has almost entirely re-built his offensive line with:
Center Connor McGovern (we could have really used this guy)
Offensive Guard Greg Van Roten
Left Tackle George Fant
Fant he paid $30 Million for a guy who could not crack the starting lineup of one of the worst OL in football. With Hernandez and Zeitler didn’t make sense to spend cap space on Van Roten. McGovern I would have targeted, but that is just me.
Individual grades as well
New York Giants: Grading all the free agent signings - ( New Window )
Young players need time. The roster is filled with young talent. Now we need to coach them up and make this thing come together, sort of like 1997. It's time to coach these kids and build something.
FA was not a failure. They signed 2 starters that will upgrade their positions from the last 2 years and the blocking TE will help out in a big way.
I know this past decade sucked. The last few years were even worse. I suggest everyone here develop a short memory and forget the past, exhibit some patience and appreciate the little improvements we should see this season. And who knows, maybe they surprise. Stranger things have happened, see 1997.
I also said, heading into last season, that I wasn't as concerned about the pass rush as popular opinion, i was more concerned with the LBs and whether Shurmur was the man for the job here. Turns out the passrush wasn't really as bad as some might have thought, and the metrics back this up evidenced by the numbers we have seen where the Giants did in fact pressure the QBs at a reasonable level in 2019, but the coverage just wasn't there. In no way am I saying the passrush is good or ready, but it wasn't the sore spot, everything else was. I still feel that way about the passrush. Guys like Carter, X and the FA will have a chance to produce with the big bodies in front of them. Carter is entering year 3. X is entering year 2. Maybe they add another live body in April. Maybe the trade down, get the OT and more.
I am looking forward to 2020. I think we are finally emerging from the long dark decade of suck. I just hope this stoppage and lack of offseason cohesion doesn't hurt us. It might.
Who is the blue chip talent at WR, TE, Edge, DT, OLB, ILB, SS and FS?
Also while the Giants may go OL with #4 pick but reviews aren't for this OL class to be blue-chips...maybe few shades of lighter blue.
I'm not sure I understand this line of thinking. Because there isn't a consensus among people who don't actually select the players, we should hope that our front office lets other teams choose for them by winnowing the options?
Isn't the important thing that Gettleman, Pettit, Judge, Garrett, and Colombo reach a consensus? Does it matter whether Kiper, McShay, McGinn, and Boylhart all agree with each other?
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In comment 14848141 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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of replies for a guy who posts about failing FA before the period is over or the players have ever taken the field.
It's fucking madness.
Did you bother to actually read the OP. Just what about anything I said is "fucking madness".
Are you fucking kidding me?
This right here qualifies:
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With FA basically over, the Giants have not accomplished what they set out to do
Not only is FA not complete, but you have no idea what the Giants "set out to do".
FA is not over. I like most of the guys they have signed. While none are game changers, they have added some nice depth at multiple positions. I am hoping for either Simmons or one of Becton/Wills/Wirfs at OT with the #4. The only other scenario I would like is a trade back, but we have to get a food haul of picks to make this worthwhile. I would also like an OC in round 2 or 3.