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Can anyone sell me on Simmons as the #4 pick?

Jim in Forest Hills : 3/25/2020 8:52 am
I want a defensive stud, someone who can change the game for us. Maybe that's unrealistic to ask of a player. When I see Simmons, I don't see where he would dominate the game, so I might be self limiting this kid.

Those that advocate for him. what do you envision he will become? Do you have a good player comp for him? How do you see him impacting the game?
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I don’t normally contribute to a thread  
joeinpa : 3/25/2020 8:57 am : link
Like this, don’t have much to offer.

But I ve read a good comparison might be Jesse Armstead
We want to be able to tell our #4 pick  
LBH15 : 3/25/2020 9:00 am : link

...  
Chris684 : 3/25/2020 9:00 am : link
ACC Defensive Player of the Year … first-team All-ACC selection … credited with team-high 107 tackles (16.0 for loss), 8.0 sacks, 10 pass breakups, three interceptions (returned for 42 yards), a forced fumble and a fumble recovery in 818 snaps over 15 games (all starts) … voted as a permanent team captain …
Yeah, I can.....  
Britt in VA : 3/25/2020 9:01 am : link
He might be the best athlete in the draft. He could be a badass linebacker on a team rich in history at linebacker but thin at the position for over a decade.
You're DG, at #4, Young & Okudah are gone  
JohnB : 3/25/2020 9:03 am : link
and you want a stud defensive player. Who are you taking?

Really.... who? Who fits your bill as a "stud" player on the D? Who is left that is a true stud player? Brown? That position is overrun with players and using a high round pick on there doesn't make sense.

Who are YOU taking?

Except, he's going to struggle with traditional LB roles in the NFL  
JonC : 3/25/2020 9:03 am : link
I'd wager he's a backend player in the NFL, and not a good use of the #4 overall pick, imo.
What do you feel about the Giants lack of speed  
bLiTz 2k : 3/25/2020 9:03 am : link
And inability to cover mismatch offensive players on defense for the last decade?

Simmons is a rare player that can literally change the game by potentially eliminating that deficiency on defense immediately.

Ertz over the middle? Simmons is a favorable matchup.

Passes in the flat? Simmons can make it to the outside and make a stop for a loss when lined up almost anywhere.

Man coverage on fast slot receivers? He covered them WELL in college and he has the speed to do so.

He IS a game changer. Just not in the way of what people traditionally used to value (pass rush).

Oh by the way, he is an effective blitzer, tackler, and more than willing in the run game.

Watch some tape and judge for yourself.
Since you asked....  
GFAN52 : 3/25/2020 9:04 am : link
Here's a video for you...
Link - ( New Window )
I share some of the concerns  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 3/25/2020 9:08 am : link
of JonC.

I think he will be a good player in the NFL but I'm not 100% convinced he will be the force up front that you guys expect.
RE: I share some of the concerns  
Simms11 : 3/25/2020 9:14 am : link
In comment 14849040 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
of JonC.

I think he will be a good player in the NFL but I'm not 100% convinced he will be the force up front that you guys expect.


Guy can run. When was the last time we had a LBer that could cover a TE or RB? He’s very good in space and has great length. I think he could also get to the QB with his speed. If used properly by the DC, he’s a great asset to have on D and will most likely become the best player on that D the moment he’s drafted.
We have a lot of bulk  
Metnut : 3/25/2020 9:15 am : link
up front on defense but not a lot of speed or guys who can cover the middle of the field. Simmons brings that exact element to us at an elite level. He can also rush the passer and play a whole number of different roles in a defense.

If we want our new coach to be able to implement the versatile schemes that he's talked about, then let's give him the tools to make it happen. Or, we can watch a whole other season of teams converting 3rd and 9s on us all season long.
How about a bigger, faster prime Landon Collins  
Giantgator : 3/25/2020 9:16 am : link
who can blitz effectively and cover TEs and RBs?

That gets me pretty excited.
RE: Except, he's going to struggle with traditional LB roles in the NFL  
rnargi : 3/25/2020 9:16 am : link
In comment 14849037 JonC said:
Quote:
I'd wager he's a backend player in the NFL, and not a good use of the #4 overall pick, imo.


Bob Papa is very high on this kid. Said last night he would be the perfect pick at 4. Compared him to AP, and reminded everyone that AP wasn't widely hailed as a great signing. Turned out to be a great Giant. I'd like the pick. Maybe more than Young.
JonC ison the money in my view  
Victor in CT : 3/25/2020 9:17 am : link
I can't get on board with Simmons at #4 overall
Idk enough, but besides Chase Young ....i would  
George from PA : 3/25/2020 9:20 am : link
Prefer to trade down abit, if possible ....as there are several players that could be special...3-9 similar grade imo
I have posted in a lot of other places but I will try  
SteelGiant : 3/25/2020 9:25 am : link
First - I preface that I am not a scout and I have no idea if Simmons can do what is needed at the NFL level. So I am speaking purely on the merit that if he is successful what he could be.

Walter Football listed his strengths and weaknesses (you can read their write-up)
https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2020isimmons.php

Strengths:
Instinctive
Sideline-to-sideline speed
Very good run defender
Excellent pass-coverage linebacker
Can cover running backs, tight ends, receivers
Rare cover skills for a linebacker; covers like a safety
Has covered slot receivers in man-to-man
Can run down the middle seam
Good vision
Reads plays well
Sideline-to-sideline speed
Superb at knowing when to fire off
Good pursuit defender
Closing quickness
Athletic
Dangerous blitzer
Excellent tackler
Open-field tackler
Hard hitter
Is an enforcer in the middle of the field
Never hesitates to get physical
Natural build
Covers a lot of ground in zone coverage
Can break down in space
Ability to redirect
Could also contribute on special teams

Weakness:
Could stand to get better at taking on and shedding blocks

If I had to pick one player that had very similar write up as Simmons that played in the Pros- it would be Ryan Shazier - Read this write on him you will - it sounds a like like Simmons profile https://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2014/4/14/5611854/ryan-shazier-scouting-report

He gives you a player who can cover pass catching TE and possibly some WRs from the LB position which allows your safeties to double WR or cover over the top in a zone.

He gives you the ability to catch up to running backs running to the outside edge.

He gives you the ability to play zone in the middle of the field and keep eyes on the mobile QB who tend to take off and run.

He gives you a player that would help blow up screen passes.

I would forget trying to put a label on him, but does not mean he is position-less, it just mean his role in the defense changes depending on the play called which gives you versatility.

You have watched Peppers and Landon play linebacker on plays because it is needed in today's NFL to have a player who is fast enough to attack and cover - but that is because our linebackers are not capable. Simmons would be capable which means another player to do that job.

You have watched your team get demoralized by Zach Ertz and Jason Witten - that might not happen because you have Simmons.

You have watched your team get punked by that Penn State SB back up who plays for the Eagles by running the same dink pass over and over again. - that might not happen if you have Simmons because he is fast enough to get to the outside.

Did someone say "positional flexibility" Simmons could be your guy. What happens when there is an audible called and a Running back is sent out in to the Wide out position your slow ass LB has to cover him - oh wait - thank God we drafted Simmons he at least gives us a chance.

No - he is not going to be a run stuffing up the middle LB - but he is not supposed to be - your high priced/highly drafted Defensive Line is supposed to do that. There are other LBs on the team who can play that role.

Now the question is - do you believe he can do those things or not? More importantly - do the Giants think he can do those things or not?

If so - I think its a no brainier at 4
I don’t understand where Simmons fits on this team  
cosmicj : 3/25/2020 9:26 am : link
Peppers plays the role Simmons would most naturally perform.

If you say he is actually a FS, I don’t think you can possibly justify taking a player that high who hasn’t really played that position in the NCAA, especially because Julian Love flashed potential in that role late last season.

And I’m underwhelmed by Simmons’ pash rush skills. Though he had gaudy stats, he was completely unblocked in almost all of the 2019 sacks I viewed. You combine that with his problems in traffic against rushing plays, and I can’t possibly see how he can play OLB in a 3-4.

So the guy’s most likely position duplicates a Giants player already in the squad. It’s as if we were focusing on a really talented HB coming out this year insisting that the guy along with Barkley could be utilized creatively to get them on the field at the same time. I think that idea would be criticized heavily. Yet it looks like a similar argument to the one being made for Simmons.

Finally, an argument being made is Judge’s “multiple” statement. But the Patriots have starting safeties and LBs who fit traditional profiles and use them flexibly. Their LBs in fact tend to be large, in the 250-260 lb range and their DBs, who tend to be pretty big, are all in the 190-200 lb range. The Pats have NOT been using a nonstandard rover as far as I can tell. So the Pats don’t provide a template for how Simmons would be used.

I just don’t see how Simmons fits with the Giants.
Two points regarding his ability to take care of the 'traditional  
Ira : 3/25/2020 9:27 am : link
linebacker role'. One is, he put on 8 pounds before the combine without losing speed. He can probably put on more. The other is ability to play sideline to sideline. Teams also ran wide on us with success. Simmons will make that more difficult.
RE: RE: Except, he's going to struggle with traditional LB roles in the NFL  
JonC : 3/25/2020 9:28 am : link
In comment 14849050 rnargi said:
Quote:
In comment 14849037 JonC said:


Quote:


I'd wager he's a backend player in the NFL, and not a good use of the #4 overall pick, imo.



Bob Papa is very high on this kid. Said last night he would be the perfect pick at 4. Compared him to AP, and reminded everyone that AP wasn't widely hailed as a great signing. Turned out to be a great Giant. I'd like the pick. Maybe more than Young.


Papa, while beloved as an announcer, isn't a really astute football mind. AP was an old school MIKE, Simmons isn't that either.
RE: Two points regarding his ability to take care of the 'traditional  
JonC : 3/25/2020 9:31 am : link
In comment 14849062 Ira said:
Quote:
linebacker role'. One is, he put on 8 pounds before the combine without losing speed. He can probably put on more. The other is ability to play sideline to sideline. Teams also ran wide on us with success. Simmons will make that more difficult.


It's about physicality and want to, and Simmons views himself as Honey Badger 2. That's a backend player, a safety hybrid.
Now, if those things are viewed by the Giants as worthy of #4  
JonC : 3/25/2020 9:35 am : link
so be it, they're the professionals. But, he is unlikely to be a force up front imv, he's going to be moving backwards and laterally, away from the heavy action including the run game until it reaches the second level of the defense and beyond. Michael Boley, whom so many point to from recent Giants vintage, also lacked the physicality and want to to engage in the heavy action. Even Littleton, the player so many want to emulate here, wasn't selected #4 overall.
I see him as a hybrid WOLB/FS.  
Section331 : 3/25/2020 9:35 am : link
That has value in today's NFL, and both positions highlight his strengths and diffuse his weaknesses. Whether that is worth a #4 pick, I'll leave for others to decide. Personally, I don't think so, but some people a lot smarter than me disagree.
I love these words  
anon837 : 3/25/2020 9:36 am : link
“Tell me what the guy can do, don’t tell me what he can’t do, and we’ll find a way to put that positive skill set in the defense and not ask him to be in a position where he can fail.” Bill Belichick
SteelGiant  
JonC : 3/25/2020 9:37 am : link
solid post.
re Pierce, they also weren't spending the #4 pick in the draft on him  
Victor in CT : 3/25/2020 9:42 am : link
he was a mid-range FA signing who was an outstanding value.
SteelGiant - thanks, that's good intel  
Jim in Forest Hills : 3/25/2020 9:44 am : link
Shazier seems like a good comp.

Looking at the Pats LBs, maybe Mayo would be the closest player? Most of their backers are big like Hightower/Brushci.

To me though, the LB position is about physicality and most importantly, reading the defense instinctively. I like the Dallas LBs like Lee, Smith and Vander Esch, maybe Smith is also a good comp here?
I think he'll be the pick  
MotownGIANTS : 3/25/2020 9:49 am : link
and we trade down in the 2nd to get more picks and use them on OL then move to WR and/or FS. That is why Lewis was signed in FA to not use a pick on a backup RB early or in the middle of the draft.
Derwin James  
AcesUp : 3/25/2020 9:50 am : link
Is probably the closest comp when looking at how he will fit in the NFL. It's all dependent on the coaching staff and his evaluation when looking at his impact as an Edge and deep safety. If he's truly this dynamic defender that can rush the passer, cover the deep middle of the field as a safety, line up with big slot and TEs...then he's worth it.

If he's just a stud off ball linebacker and there are cornerstone 10+ year left tackles on the board? You take the tackle to support your young QB, no question. It's been said a million times but if you take him, you have to have a plan for him on Day 1.
I was honestly more impressed by the LB Parsons from PSU  
Jim in Forest Hills : 3/25/2020 9:51 am : link
this year, thought he was the best LB I saw play in 2019. Super athletic and instinctive.
RE: Derwin James  
Jim in Forest Hills : 3/25/2020 9:53 am : link
In comment 14849104 AcesUp said:
Quote:
Is probably the closest comp when looking at how he will fit in the NFL. It's all dependent on the coaching staff and his evaluation when looking at his impact as an Edge and deep safety. If he's truly this dynamic defender that can rush the passer, cover the deep middle of the field as a safety, line up with big slot and TEs...then he's worth it.

If he's just a stud off ball linebacker and there are cornerstone 10+ year left tackles on the board? You take the tackle to support your young QB, no question. It's been said a million times but if you take him, you have to have a plan for him on Day 1.


Aces, that's a good comp, James is very good, that defense was not the same without him.
I'm a Simmons guy,I believe he is a game changer!  
TheMick7 : 3/25/2020 9:55 am : link
However,I think our GM has dictated that our #4 pick be OT since in the last 2 drafts he's taken a RB & QB at #1. If you don't bring in people to protect those 2 skill positions,you're wasting those picks.How many times last year did we see Saquon tackled for a loss because he had no blocking? Now if management sees the second tier of OTs comparable to the top 4,than Simmons is a no brainer,at least to me. I think only bringing in Fleming(really a push since Remmers left) indicates what DG is thinking. And,if that's the case,moving down a few spots to either Miami or SD's #1 would make sense if they pick up another second round pick & still have the opportunity to draft Simmons/OT.
Jim  
AcesUp : 3/25/2020 10:00 am : link
IMO he needs to be James+ to justify taking him over a franchise LT. He needs to be more than a stud joker LB/SS hybrid...he better be a stud LB/SS/FS/Edge/Nickle joker and your staff better be prepared to use him like that.
He’s a rare athlete and fills up the stat sheet...  
Torrag : 3/25/2020 10:05 am : link
and maybe the Giants will draft him. Sold?
RE: Jim  
Jim in Forest Hills : 3/25/2020 10:11 am : link
In comment 14849115 AcesUp said:
Quote:
IMO he needs to be James+ to justify taking him over a franchise LT. He needs to be more than a stud joker LB/SS hybrid...he better be a stud LB/SS/FS/Edge/Nickle joker and your staff better be prepared to use him like that.


I'd agree with that. I think that's what's in my head, I keep seeing the LB hybrid and it wasn't enough imo. Because then why not trade down and pick up Murray who can do that role very well.

I think Giants brass have to see him more than a + LB or a + S.
Who was the last Giants  
pjcas18 : 3/25/2020 10:21 am : link
LB or Safety who could cover like this?
Link - ( New Window )
If graded equal or even less so  
jc in c-ville : 3/25/2020 10:26 am : link
I'm going LT.

Giants picked a freaking RB at #2 and a QB at #6 the past few years.

The line is a mess and IMV, that is priority #1.

Pass Rush - he will be a difference maker!  
edavisiii : 3/25/2020 10:27 am : link
2 reasons not mentioned a lot! BLITZ & BIG GAME PLAYER!He had 8 sacks. He is not going to square up a OT and beat him with power but he is tremendous blitzer. Plus, he played big in big games. Tony Pauline said that some teams, including one team in the top 5 has him rated above Chace Young! Another Pauline quote,"One person in the Giants Organization commented that Young had very little impact in the CF playoffs!"

Just a old HS Assistant's view....It is going to depend on the Giant's board and how they rate him against the OTs. Non of the tackles are sure things. Andrew Young is the only one to play LT for most of his career. He is steady but some question how high his ceiling is. Wirfs has huge upside, he is young, extremely athletic and his ceiling could be very high. Lower body looks like Saquan ony bigger! Again, he played RT! If you want your tackles to pull he is your man! Becton is RAW! Huge but tape is not great! Dave T thinks he is a RT and that's it. He will be a beast in the run game. Willis does not have the length people want in a Tackle. Measured shorter than 6'5" with short arms! Will be solid! Granted WE NEED A RT! But do you draft a RT at 4? I think there are reasons Simmons could be higher on boards. Joe Judge and Graham want versatility. The Pats changed there Defensive look game to game. He fits the philosophy of the new staff. Move him around every week. He won't be a safety or a slot corner in the NFL! But he can play many hybrid positions. MLB in Dime Package watch him cover a tight end or a back Blitz with 4.39 speed, combine him with Connelly and watch them shoot gaps! I'd prefer Chase Young but I would not be totally surprised If Simmons goes before him!
I don't know, new coach,  
barens : 3/25/2020 10:28 am : link
if they take him, then I'd assume Judge would be on board with a specific plan in mind, which would be exciting to me. And I could be on board either way.
To me he’s a faster version of Peppers  
The_Boss : 3/25/2020 10:28 am : link
Who isn’t a physical player. I think he would get swallowed whole by the OL’s of Philly and Dallas in the run game and likely completely stoned on the blitz. That doesn’t scream “draft me!” @ 4 overall.
Our coach has stated he wants a tough team  
Rudy5757 : 3/25/2020 10:36 am : link
Simmons is not a tough player. An arm tackling LB is not a good value at 4. He is not Jesse Armstead, Jesse was violent. He is not Pierce, Pierce was instinctive and violent.

Shazier was more physical than Simmons and wasnt exactly lighting it up in the NFL. He was a good player. In his 4 seasons he never made the pro bowl or all pro. He was selected 15th overall. Kalil Mack was selected at 5 overall in that same draft and had a much better career up to the same point.

The one thing you cant teach is Physicality. College players dont get more physical in the NFL. The guy is one of the most physical specimens to come out but he is more athlete than football player. I dont even think you will be getting a Shazier. To me he is a mid to late 1st rounder and will probably have a good career. He will make great plays and you will say why don't we see that more often? It's because he is an open field player and not an attacker. Teams like SF and Tennessee will eat this guy up.
RE: Jim  
Mike from Ohio : 3/25/2020 10:38 am : link
In comment 14849115 AcesUp said:
Quote:
IMO he needs to be James+ to justify taking him over a franchise LT. He needs to be more than a stud joker LB/SS hybrid...he better be a stud LB/SS/FS/Edge/Nickle joker and your staff better be prepared to use him like that.


This assumes that the Giants have graded any of the OTs as a franchise LT. That is not a given.
RE: I was honestly more impressed by the LB Parsons from PSU  
Lionhart28 : 3/25/2020 10:39 am : link
In comment 14849106 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
this year, thought he was the best LB I saw play in 2019. Super athletic and instinctive.


He'll likely be a top 10 pick next year.
Simmons is a real risk/reward player  
Giantsfan79 : 3/25/2020 10:42 am : link
if you are drafting him and put him at one position in a traditional sense then I have doubts he'll be that successful or a good use of the #4 pick. If you expect him to be a traditional linebacker I fear he may disappoint.

but if you are running a defense that really is going to be different each week depending on the opponent then Simmons could be a legend. he can line up almost anywhere on the field and handle the responsibilities of 3 positions (lb, S, cb). if the Giants are able to keep the gameplan secret so the other team doesn't know where he'll be lining up going into the game, he could change how opposing offenses have to prepare for our defense.

A good defensive coordinator could come up with a lot of different looks with both Peppers & Simmons in the back 7.

Plus it's not hyperbole to say that it could be years before another player with Simmons skillset comes along. Keep in mind he's 5 inches taller and 25 pounds heavier than Jabrill Peppers.
I'm with cosmicj  
BigBlueNH : 3/25/2020 10:47 am : link
I think his best position is SS, and we already have a pretty good one. He might turn out to be a good FS also, but I don't spend a #4 pick on someone we want to try at a new position. LBs have to shed blocks on a regular basis and that is a weakness that you shouldn't have to scheme around for a #4 pick. I think the Giants are committed to going OT at #4, or hopefully with a trade down.
RE: Except, he's going to struggle with traditional LB roles in the NFL  
sb from NYT Forum : 3/25/2020 10:54 am : link
In comment 14849037 JonC said:
Quote:
I'd wager he's a backend player in the NFL, and not a good use of the #4 overall pick, imo.


Not being argumentative but I recall similar thoughts about Ray Lewis before the 1996 draft.
RE: RE: Except, he's going to struggle with traditional LB roles in the NFL  
Jim in Forest Hills : 3/25/2020 10:55 am : link
In comment 14849191 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
In comment 14849037 JonC said:


Quote:


I'd wager he's a backend player in the NFL, and not a good use of the #4 overall pick, imo.



Not being argumentative but I recall similar thoughts about Ray Lewis before the 1996 draft.


If the Giants think he's Ray Lewis, sign me up for that asap.
Can anyone sell me on Simmons as the #4 pick?  
M.S. : 3/25/2020 10:59 am : link



He jumps off the screen.

He's a difference-maker.

And we have no difference-makers on defense.

If he's gone at 4, I vote with many other BBIers:

Trade down if we can and get a starting offensive tackle (and extra pick or two).
RE: I love these words  
BestFeature : 3/25/2020 11:02 am : link
In comment 14849081 anon837 said:
Quote:
“Tell me what the guy can do, don’t tell me what he can’t do, and we’ll find a way to put that positive skill set in the defense and not ask him to be in a position where he can fail.” Bill Belichick


I never got that. Wouldn't knowing what he can AND can't do help put him in the best position to succeed?
I would love to take a flier on him BUT  
Jeever : 3/25/2020 11:05 am : link
We can not let another year go by and have Bark and DJ get beat to a pulp and waste their talent. Please FIX the OL. You do that this year and you help the defense by keeping them off the field. RB's have limited life spans and we have a potential HOFer. Get him an OL that can compete. I want at least 4 or 5 of our picks to be OL. We can't keep grabbing one player at each position and hope to hit on most of them. It hasn't worked.

We concentrated on D in free agency. Yes they may not be probowlers but they're serviceable. OL this year Defense next year and then start picking and choosing after that. Let's face it. We're not a good team. We should be better next year but I have no illusions that we're a superbowl team let alone a playoff team. Maybe they surprise me but we shall see. FIX THE OLINE.
He can have issues in traffic but!  
edavisiii : 3/25/2020 11:08 am : link
He would give us a complete set of LBs. Put him at WLB on run downs and keep the thumpers in the middle, put him at MLB on passing downs...he stays on the field for all downs! Special teams? He flies! I bet he will block some punts if put on that unit!
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