I want a defensive stud, someone who can change the game for us. Maybe that's unrealistic to ask of a player. When I see Simmons, I don't see where he would dominate the game, so I might be self limiting this kid.
Those that advocate for him. what do you envision he will become? Do you have a good player comp for him? How do you see him impacting the game?
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I'd wager he's a backend player in the NFL, and not a good use of the #4 overall pick, imo.
Not being argumentative but I recall similar thoughts about Ray Lewis before the 1996 draft.
Ray Lewis was a clear MIKE prospect, though. That means in the box, in the eye of the storm, and you're scheming around him.
Link - ( New Window )
He will be all over the field. offensive coordinators will have to adapt to Simmons. look at the LSU game. He was all over the field in the first half and LSU entirely changed their game plan due to Simmons,
He is one guy, so he can only do so much, but he is one of the most talented defensive players to come out in a generation and he has the production to back it up.
The offense will not be able to tell what our defense. Is gonna do based on where Simmons is because there are so many options with him.
“Don’t tell me what they can’t do, tell me what they can do.” - Joe Judge
Isaiah Simmons can do it all and will be used in every way imaginable,
Also, I am unconvinced Simmons is a big time pass rusher. If someone can show me a play where he beat a good NCAA OL who was actually blocking him, please post the highlight because I’d be very curious to see it.
He jumps off the screen.
He's a difference-maker.
And we have no difference-makers on defense.
If he's gone at 4, I vote with many other BBIers:
Trade down if we can and get a starting offensive tackle (and extra pick or two).
Pretty much exactly my thoughts.
I know we need OL help specifically OT and C but I think the D was worse than the OL and needs a player like Simmons who could help in a variety of ways.
I'm so tired of seeing 3rd and longs converted, TE's ripping us a new one and RB's catching passes in the flat and us having no one fast enougn to stop them. Simmons would help immediately in all those areas, and with this staff wanting to be versatile on D, I'm thinking they'll find several more creative ways to use him as well.
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In comment 14849037 JonC said:
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I'd wager he's a backend player in the NFL, and not a good use of the #4 overall pick, imo.
Not being argumentative but I recall similar thoughts about Ray Lewis before the 1996 draft.
Ray Lewis was a clear MIKE prospect, though. That means in the box, in the eye of the storm, and you're scheming around him.
Gotcha. I meant more along the lines that Lewis was criticized for being undersized, didn't play well in traffic, didn't shed blocks, that sort of thing.
But some of the viewpoints of why Simmons doesn’t have top end value, imo aren’t that substantial. It’s been said out there that he’s not overly physical or aggressive and that having to navigate through trash will neutralize most of his value to the team. I am here to present a case against that using Shazier as my model.
Now first, it’s been said that they aren’t similar but years ago I remember having similar concerns about Shazier and watched him absolutely flourish in the NFL game.
In case you are pressed for time and don’t want to watch the whole game posted below, I’m going to highlight three plays in this game.
1:05 I’ll quote the commentator for this one. “But Shatley(LG from Clemson pulls) right here, that man is coming for Shazier and he is the star of the show, because he just empties him.”
On this play it was a qb power and Taj Boyd ran right up Shaziers gap for a 49 yard touchdown. Block shedding issue.
4:45 You will watch Sammy Watkins catch a wr screen and then truck Shazier for 5 extra yards after contact. Needs to run his feet on contact.
6:37 You will see Shazier nonchalantly take on a block and allow the qb to get to the sideline and almost give up the td. Aggressiveness issue, lack of desire, tired.
My point is these are similar players coming out, they have top end speed and that’s what makes them valuable, not their block shedding ability. Because of Shazier’s clear talent, he worked on his weaknesses and he was able to make plays all over the field and become one of if not the best coverage LB in the NFL.
I would expect the same from Simmons
Shazier vs Clemson 2014 - ( New Window )
simmons is going to be a special player....he will allow the defense to do all kinds of things. he can cover RBs and TEs, but i too am concerned about him inside as an ILB. that being said, i think he is the pick if we didnt have a glaring OL hole...
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IMO he needs to be James+ to justify taking him over a franchise LT. He needs to be more than a stud joker LB/SS hybrid...he better be a stud LB/SS/FS/Edge/Nickle joker and your staff better be prepared to use him like that.
This assumes that the Giants have graded any of the OTs as a franchise LT. That is not a given.
I'm also making the assumption that Simmons is a pro bowl caliber player here, so I think it squares up.
They dinked and dunked us with 14 play drives featuring Boston Scott who our linebackers made look like Brain Westbrook.
Sorry to remind you guys of the atrocities that happened that night but we need an answer for that and hopefully Martinez and Connelly can improve that weakness by simple play recognition.
Remember the game winning OT TD to a wide open Ertz when Ogletree said he didn’t see him??? Yeah that’s what we’re trying to stop.
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“Tell me what the guy can do, don’t tell me what he can’t do, and we’ll find a way to put that positive skill set in the defense and not ask him to be in a position where he can fail.” Bill Belichick
I never got that. Wouldn't knowing what he can AND can't do help put him in the best position to succeed?
If the coaches know what they are doing, then yes. But when you had situations in the past like Landon Collins matched up 1 on 1 against a slot guy, they put him in a position to fail. That's not his forte, not by a longshot. When he was in the box, taking heads off, he was in his wheelhouse. Same thing with Simmons. If they utilize his speed, blitzing, and coverage ability, the Giants will have themselves a dangerous weapon. If they ask him to take on pulling guards or try to out-muscle Gronkoski type TEs, he will fail.
Also, I am unconvinced Simmons is a big time pass rusher. If someone can show me a play where he beat a good NCAA OL who was actually blocking him, please post the highlight because I’d be very curious to see it.
Agree, his sacks from 2019 were almost all unblocked.
To me, he comes with a Risk. Your coach would have to have plan for how to use him before drafting him.
Devin Bush
Leighton Vander Esche
Darius Leonard
Tremaine Edmunds
Rashaan Evans
Now think about Simmons in context of all those guys - he is the biggest athletic freak and likely the best in coverage by a healthy margin as evidenced by his 4 INTs/14 passes defensed in the last 2 years. Unlike those guys he has actually played safety at an extremely high level. He is simply faster (4.38), more explosive (39 inch vert), and bigger/longer (238 pounds - with near 34 inch arms) than just about everyone on that list.
Now also think about Simmons in the context of pass rush relative to those guys. His 8 sacks/16.5 TFLs last year in a minimal pass rushing role likely shows upside beyond whatever any of them displayed in college. His arm length is equal to a prototypical LT and his speed on the edge alone is likely lethal in the same way as a guy like Vic Beasley.
Also he showed both of those specific skill sets at a high level, on the brightest stage in this past year's CFB playoff.
Now there is 1 area where likely doesn't rate as favorably compared to that list of players, and it's his play in the box vs. the run and taking on blocks. IMO that deficiency can be mitigated by a coach utilizing his skills in a smart way. And also let's not forget he did still accrue about 200 tackles in the last 2 years at Clemson, so it's not like he's incompetent. It's just not his strength and not where's his role has been focused.
-sideline to sideline
-stop the sweep
-neutralize mobile QB
No brainer.
Also, I am unconvinced Simmons is a big time pass rusher. If someone can show me a play where he beat a good NCAA OL who was actually blocking him, please post the highlight because I’d be very curious to see it.
You can go to 2:58 to find the play you seek. Feel free to ignore the rest of the plays though.
Isaiah Simmons impact plays - ( New Window )
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In comment 14849081 anon837 said:
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“Tell me what the guy can do, don’t tell me what he can’t do, and we’ll find a way to put that positive skill set in the defense and not ask him to be in a position where he can fail.” Bill Belichick
I never got that. Wouldn't knowing what he can AND can't do help put him in the best position to succeed?
If the coaches know what they are doing, then yes. But when you had situations in the past like Landon Collins matched up 1 on 1 against a slot guy, they put him in a position to fail. That's not his forte, not by a longshot. When he was in the box, taking heads off, he was in his wheelhouse. Same thing with Simmons. If they utilize his speed, blitzing, and coverage ability, the Giants will have themselves a dangerous weapon. If they ask him to take on pulling guards or try to out-muscle Gronkoski type TEs, he will fail.
It really is pathetic how terrible our coaches scheme our players, meanwhile an even more lumbering safety Cam Chancellor was schemed perfectly.
And as the #4 pick? Pure insanity. They have made major investments at QB and RB in the last two drafts but still have a weak OL that needs two Centers and at least one Tackle. So fix the farging line, then worry about the defense or they run a higher risk getting Jones or Bark hurt.
As much as I love the defensive game, the defense has to wait in the draft this year.
Personally, I think he could have as big an impact as LT did.
However, for those who think Simmons will be a complete bust, look at his measurables and the fact that he is a competitive person. Then ask yourself if this guy has a position if he can't do everything we think he MAY be able to do. I think, worst case, he would be a decent outside LB or Strong Safety, maybe equal to someone like Brad Van Pelt, to go back in history. There are probably plenty of comps for similar "floor" players, even if some think there is no one to compare as his "ceiling".
2)In regards to DG’s drafting history. While in Carolina DG never drafted an o-lineman in the 1st round and took 1 in the 2nd round. He did however draft a Hybrid Safety/Linebacker (Shaq Thompson) in the 1st even though he already had Keuchly and Thomas Davis on the team. So i don’t think we can use DG’s draft history as any clue.
3) In regards to fixing the O-line. Of course the o-line need to be upgraded, but not drafting a lineman at 4 does not mean the line can’t or won’t be upgrade. I feel that people are so black and white not his matter. “The line needs to be upgraded therefore a lineman must be taken at 4”. There are many dominant lines that have no top 10 lineman on it (as there are with many position groups in the NFL). An offensive line probably requires the most cohesion as any group on the field which is why a single player does not always translate to improvement. This also happens to be a deep draft for offensive line.
"Any team in the top-10 that takes an offensive tackle over Isaiah Simmons or Derrick Brown is clearly drafting for need rather than best player available."
“All these guys — Tristan Wirfs from Iowa, Andrew Thomas from Georgia, Mekhi Becton from Louisville, and Jedrick Wills from Alabama — all have their strengths, for sure, but none of them are super-clean prospects.
“If you’re just grading players they’re not to the level of Isaiah Simmons and Derrick Brown.”
Ju
Valentine’s Views’ podcast: Is this really an elite offensive tackle draft class? - ( New Window )
Good post but a lot can happen in 32 picks. As many as 7 or 8 OTs could go before pick 36. There are high enough grades on many of these guys and a dearth of quality OTs in the league.
Devin Bush
Leighton Vander Esche
Darius Leonard
Tremaine Edmunds
Rashaan Evans
Now think about Simmons in context of all those guys - he is the biggest athletic freak and likely the best in coverage by a healthy margin as evidenced by his 4 INTs/14 passes defensed in the last 2 years. Unlike those guys he has actually played safety at an extremely high level. He is simply faster (4.38), more explosive (39 inch vert), and bigger/longer (238 pounds - with near 34 inch arms) than just about everyone on that list.
Now also think about Simmons in the context of pass rush relative to those guys. His 8 sacks/16.5 TFLs last year in a minimal pass rushing role likely shows upside beyond whatever any of them displayed in college. His arm length is equal to a prototypical LT and his speed on the edge alone is likely lethal in the same way as a guy like Vic Beasley.
Also he showed both of those specific skill sets at a high level, on the brightest stage in this past year's CFB playoff.
Now there is 1 area where likely doesn't rate as favorably compared to that list of players, and it's his play in the box vs. the run and taking on blocks. IMO that deficiency can be mitigated by a coach utilizing his skills in a smart way. And also let's not forget he did still accrue about 200 tackles in the last 2 years at Clemson, so it's not like he's incompetent. It's just not his strength and not where's his role has been focused.
Excellent post. Simmons is a stud on any defense if used properly. Match up weapon. Ray Lewis was hindred even when he had to get through the mick but with their beef upfront he was usually more free flwong to the ball carrier. We have beef upfront too. Not calling Simmons Lewis but that some defenses allow less traffic due to what they have upfront.
The truth is that they bust at about the same rate at any other position.
The Giants have drafted Ereck Flowers, Justin Pugh, Weston Richburg and Will Hernandez in recent years very high and we still have had one of the worst if not the worst OL in NFL.
The truth is the OL is 5 guys working as one and its more than just players there needed to make a difference. It’s a combo is scheme, technique and coaching that takes it all to work.
The idea of the “Franchise LT” is rather outdated back to the time when we had Orlando Paces and John Ogdens coming out and becoming HoF SB winning players.
What people are missing is that Simmons is likely to be graded higher then any OT. The Giants are really the only team that would take an OL in the top 5 and there is no consensus on which OL is the best of the bunch, Simmons is going to go in the top 5, he may not even be on the board when we select at 4. We would have to take the lesser player and gamble that we can predict which OL would be the best.
In addition, this rookie OL would either need to first start at RT or for e a move from Solder to RT. RT and LT are not the same position.
While some may have written off Solder, we should still bear in mind his personal situation with his child affecting his play and the fact that every other OL regressed under the previous staff and that maybe Judge bringing in a NE viewpoint like Solder and knowing him will also lead him to get better and the fact we should have much better coaching on the OL as well. There is reason for hope on Nate Solder.
But the point is - just taking an OL at 4 doesn’t guarantee anything.
The Giants still have a premium pick at the top of round 2 where they could go OL if they chose to go with Simmons. Hernandez filled a starting job day 1 at top of round 2 as did Snee when we took him. A starting OL could still be procured there,
The truth is that they bust at about the same rate at any other position.
The Giants have drafted Ereck Flowers, Justin Pugh, Weston Richburg and Will Hernandez in recent years very high and we still have had one of the worst if not the worst OL in NFL.
The truth is the OL is 5 guys working as one and its more than just players there needed to make a difference. It’s a combo is scheme, technique and coaching that takes it all to work.
The idea of the “Franchise LT” is rather outdated back to the time when we had Orlando Paces and John Ogdens coming out and becoming HoF SB winning players.
What people are missing is that Simmons is likely to be graded higher then any OT. The Giants are really the only team that would take an OL in the top 5 and there is no consensus on which OL is the best of the bunch, Simmons is going to go in the top 5, he may not even be on the board when we select at 4. We would have to take the lesser player and gamble that we can predict which OL would be the best.
In addition, this rookie OL would either need to first start at RT or for e a move from Solder to RT. RT and LT are not the same position.
While some may have written off Solder, we should still bear in mind his personal situation with his child affecting his play and the fact that every other OL regressed under the previous staff and that maybe Judge bringing in a NE viewpoint like Solder and knowing him will also lead him to get better and the fact we should have much better coaching on the OL as well. There is reason for hope on Nate Solder.
But the point is - just taking an OL at 4 doesn’t guarantee anything.
The Giants still have a premium pick at the top of round 2 where they could go OL if they chose to go with Simmons. Hernandez filled a starting job day 1 at top of round 2 as did Snee when we took him. A starting OL could still be procured there,
If it were anywhere but LT I'd agree with you. LTs get scooped up very quickly.
This no position is made up nonsense to turn his versatility into a criticism.
Just because he can cover a TE doesn't make him a safety
People are making too much of the Honey Badger quote. In case you missed it, Matthhieu had a monster season, huge playoffs and an incredible Super Bowl. He is drawing off a simple comparison
Honey Badger is 5'9 and 190 pds
Simmoms is 6'4" and 239 pds
I've watched a bunch of Clemson games this year, and while I didn't focus solely on Simmons, my concerns were his shedding blocks, tackling, and even his pass rush acumen. I just didn't see it. Sure, he beat RB's every now and then, but he really struggled when an OT slid out on him.
That said, many whose opinion I respect have said that he is a very good pass rusher, and he did have 8 sacks. At the end of the day, if he is the pick, I'm 100% on board. He will make any defense better.
Just think the impact he had this in year and KC
AND
He is 7 inches taller, (add wingspan), nearly 50 pounds heavier
YET
He is faster!
Aaron Donald is too small - he played in crappy division - and I would like see how terrible he will be at the next level against even bigger/stronger guys. (again fans ignore every good thing he did in college and only focus on the one thing that didt like about him) Except in this case - Aaron Donald was not going to grow but in Simmons case he could get better at shedding a block
Which 2 downs do you think he will be playing? Keep in mind most team pass over 60% of the time on 1st down, also only 2 teams in the NFL pass less than 50% on first down.
He is ranked the best LB in the draft, and I see way more confusion on which OT to draft. No one is convinced which lineman is a franchise LT, I can get a lineman in the 5th round from this argument. As bad as you think the oline was last year - the defense was even worse.
I think the LB's we signed make a guy like Simmons MORE important than less. We will have one of the least athletic LB corps in the league. Simmons completely changes that. Who of our current LB's can cover anyone?
1. Take Simmons at 4 and then maybe the 7th or 8th best OL at 36... or
2. Trade down, take probably the 2nd best OT and 2nd best LB in the 1st round and get a VG center at 36.
I like option 2 better ... Carl Banks has said Simmons is a LB, not a S and there are other good coverage guys available ...
The guys is a unique freak of a football player
Aaron Donald is too small - he played in crappy division - and I would like see how terrible he will be at the next level against even bigger/stronger guys. (again fans ignore every good thing he did in college and only focus on the one thing that didt like about him) Except in this case - Aaron Donald was not going to grow but in Simmons case he could get better at shedding a block
Good call on this.
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I really want to know. I was one who wanted Aaron Donald and was pissed when we drafted Odell. Odell was very talented so it took the sting out but I feel like this is same conversation all over again.
Aaron Donald is too small - he played in crappy division - and I would like see how terrible he will be at the next level against even bigger/stronger guys. (again fans ignore every good thing he did in college and only focus on the one thing that didt like about him) Except in this case - Aaron Donald was not going to grow but in Simmons case he could get better at shedding a block
Good call on this.
Yeah good call. I wanted Zack Martin, my son ( who should be a scout ) really wanted Donald. We both understood OBJ because of need.
Simmons if available will be BPA. Because it can be argued that he is a top 2 player. You can’t say that about any of the OT.