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Giants and the number 4 pick

mdthedream : 3/26/2020 11:29 am
If you really think about it. The value for the Giants would be to take a Offensive tackle over a LB like Simmons. The cost for a Offensive tackle in free agency or on most teams is 15m plus signing bonuses. That is a lot more money than what it costs the Giants to go out and buy a LB like they did. Cost wise QB,OT,DE and CB is much higher. If you draft correctly at these positions you save a lot of money. I agree we should trade back and get extra picks and I hope we can get Miami or SD to do that.
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RE: See  
Eman11 : 3/26/2020 12:32 pm : link
In comment 14850350 mdthedream said:
Quote:
LT was also a passrusher so no problem with that if I saw Simmons as a passrusher.


Pretty sure he had eight sacks last year and that's pretty good for someone who was used in a variety of ways on D, and not primarily as a pass rusher.
...  
ryanmkeane : 3/26/2020 12:38 pm : link
it comes down to whether or not they think any of the OL can be a left tackle. If they view any of them as a really good LT prospect, then the pick is honestly a no brainer.

If they view majority of the OT's as RT only, and possibly G, well then the pick comes down to what they value...a really good RT, or a defensive playmaker who isn't going to rush the passer.

RE: IN 1980 the Giants were 4 -12, could not run the FB, had 2 ProBowl LBs  
DannyBoy : 3/26/2020 12:38 pm : link
In comment 14850334 edavisiii said:
Quote:
They had crap for RBs, but had Harry Carson, Brad VanPelt (both Pro Bowl Level Players) and another good LB in Brian Kelly.. Two of the top three players in the draft, George Rogers and Freeman McNeil were RBs. Wash took Rogers at 1. The Giants were up 2nd and took another linebacker over McNeil. People screamed! "WTF are we taking another LB for, we need a RB!" The LB was Lawrence Taylor. You take the best player available. We "had to take a OL" in 2015 an we got Flowers. I've read a lot of articles saying these tackles are not a sure thing. In Valentine's View" Jim Nagy, director of the Senior Bowl, addresses the subject.
There will be OL available in rounds 2-4 that will be good RTs or Cs! GMEen have to nail it when they scout!
But no one knows the GMen's board. One of them could be rated higher but I doubt it.

Good Read! Link - ( New Window )


I pretty much agree. The only time you take position is when it is either the final piece (but then trade back) or more likely because the two players are close enough on your board.

I will say, we need to protect the Franchise QB and open holes for Barkley.
He is  
mdthedream : 3/26/2020 12:39 pm : link
230lbs he is no passrusher.
As of now  
ryanmkeane : 3/26/2020 12:39 pm : link
I would lean towards OL with our first pick. This has gone on for too long now, and a lot of these OL are really nice prospects. I'm sure they all have warts. Every player does. Let's get the best OL in this draft and suit him up. Protect Jones at all costs.
Danny  
mdthedream : 3/26/2020 12:40 pm : link
agree completely.
I have also said  
SteelGiant : 3/26/2020 12:54 pm : link
If you think that OT you picking can be a FRANCHISE Left Tackle then that is a good pick - if you have concerns then its a terrible one at 4.

Look at the 2013 draft - if that one is similar in talent I dont know but a lot of tackles drafted - not a good year for QBs coming out

Eric Fisher (1 overall) is one of them that noticeable that you think they could be the best player in the draft?

Luke Joeckel (2 Overall) he was a bust

Lane Johnson (4 Overall) - played RT in pros

DJ Fluker (11 Overall) - did not play left tackle in pros

Justin Pugh (19 Overall) - played Guard in pros

I think Simmons can play LB in the pros like Ryan Shazier - so that is different than comparing to Sean Taylor
Pure BPA is also a fallacy  
GiantsLaw : 3/26/2020 12:58 pm : link
.
And if either the OT or LB  
Giant John : 3/26/2020 1:00 pm : link
Turn out to be pro bowl players the cost of renewing that contract will be very similar.
Should not really be a consideration in my view.
Pure BPA is a fallacy  
Mike from Ohio : 3/26/2020 1:26 pm : link
just as pure position is. Going into the draft that myopic would be a problem. But I doubt any teams do.

If the Giants went into this draft with the highest rated player being a RB, obviously they are not taking one with Barkley already there. If the highest rated player on the board was QB, they are likely not picking that either.

I suspect positional value/position of need trumps everything when the player ratings are virtually equal. But you don't take lesser players because they fill a hole when your team is full of holes.
LT is a higher number  
MeadowlandsMike : 3/26/2020 1:35 pm : link
Than all other OL positions
RE: He is  
VinegarPeppers : 3/26/2020 2:00 pm : link
In comment 14850386 mdthedream said:
Quote:
230lbs he is no passrusher.



238 at the combine and his frame can easily support another 10 pounds. He’s not going to bull rush. He’s going to finesse rush and speed rush and he’s got the skill to do both. His length and leaping ability also is fantastic in the middle where he can bat down passes or flow through gaps.
If I was a betting man...  
Johnny5 : 3/26/2020 2:07 pm : link
… and I'm not... I'd be putting all of my chips on a draft day trade with San Diego. It looks like they will be competing with Miami on a draft day QB. And I would include us drafting a tackle at 6, probably Wirfs.
Who is the best Left Tackle Prospect?  
SteelGiant : 3/26/2020 2:17 pm : link
I think us Simmons guys have talked enough.

Can you OT fans please consolidate your beliefs on which OT is
the best of the bunch and why? - serious question, cause I hear a lot of draft a tackle - and then it ends with another players name - are they all that great?

Also feel free you tell me the weakness of the players you like too -even if they only have one weakness like having a small right index finger - so I know what I can focus on when debunking your preference j/k
RE: Who is the best Left Tackle Prospect?  
MeadowlandsMike : 3/26/2020 2:24 pm : link
In comment 14850529 SteelGiant said:
Quote:
I think us Simmons guys have talked enough.

Can you OT fans please consolidate your beliefs on which OT is
the best of the bunch and why? - serious question, cause I hear a lot of draft a tackle - and then it ends with another players name - are they all that great?

Also feel free you tell me the weakness of the players you like too -even if they only have one weakness like having a small right index finger - so I know what I can focus on when debunking your preference j/k


Wills and Becton
The cost benefit analysis while interesting and true...  
Torrag : 3/26/2020 2:32 pm : link
is irrelevant.

The Top OT in this Draft is a comparable talent to Simmons/Okudah. In that situation the need there trumps taking any LB.

The only player in this Draft that would move me off of OT at #4 is Young.

If we can engineer a trade down a few spots that would be acceptable as it would add much needed Draft capital and still net us a legit Top 10 OT. I'd say #9 is as afar down as we could go and still feel comfortable.
the OT are concerning  
SteelGiant : 3/26/2020 2:43 pm : link
Wirfs I have heard some project him at being a great guard and could be a Right Tackle

Wills who has a lot good things as negatives where his effort was in question - or maybe is strong and got bored on plays or brute strength is what he relies on - other negatives written were - he have never played Left tackle - wide stance does not handle counter moves well - Pre-snap penalties were a frequent problem as he recorded multiple false start fouls

Becton - is raw and needs improve technique - has high ceiling but may need time to develop into a left tackle at the NFL

Feel free to debunk or make me feel better about these negatives
RE: IN 1980 the Giants were 4 -12, could not run the FB, had 2 ProBowl LBs  
TMS : 3/26/2020 2:43 pm : link
In comment 14850334 edavisiii said:
Quote:
They had crap for RBs, but had Harry Carson, Brad VanPelt (both Pro Bowl Level Players) and another good LB in Brian Kelly.. Two of the top three players in the draft, George Rogers and Freeman McNeil were RBs. Wash took Rogers at 1. The Giants were up 2nd and took another linebacker over McNeil. People screamed! "WTF are we taking another LB for, we need a RB!" The LB was Lawrence Taylor. You take the best player available. We "had to take a OL" in 2015 an we got Flowers. I've read a lot of articles saying these tackles are not a sure thing. In Valentine's View" Jim Nagy, director of the Senior Bowl, addresses the subject.
There will be OL available in rounds 2-4 that will be good RTs or Cs! GMEen have to nail it when they scout!
But no one knows the GMen's board. One of them could be rated higher but I doubt it.

Good Read! Link - ( New Window )
. Good post. Thanks agree on the premise of BPA.
RE: RE: IN 1980 the Giants were 4 -12, could not run the FB, had 2 ProBowl LBs  
OdellLovesOBJ : 3/26/2020 2:47 pm : link
In comment 14850385 DannyBoy said:
[quote] In comment 14850334 edavisiii said:


Quote:


They had crap for RBs, but had Harry Carson, Brad VanPelt (both Pro Bowl Level Players) and another good LB in Brian Kelly.. Two of the top three players in the draft, George Rogers and Freeman McNeil were RBs. Wash took Rogers at 1. The Giants were up 2nd and took another linebacker over McNeil. People screamed! "WTF are we taking another LB for, we need a RB!" The LB was Lawrence Taylor. You take the best player available. We "had to take a OL" in 2015 an we got Flowers. I've read a lot of articles saying these tackles are not a sure thing. In Valentine's View" Jim Nagy, director of the Senior Bowl, addresses the subject.
There will be OL available in rounds 2-4 that will be good RTs or Cs! GMEen have to nail it when they scout!
But no one knows the GMen's board. One of them could be rated higher but I doubt it.

Good Read! Link - ( New Window )



I pretty much agree. The only time you take position is when it is either the final piece (but then trade back) or more likely because the two players are close enough on your board.

I will say, we need to protect the Franchise QB and open holes for Barkley.

Respectfully I will disagree and ask everyone to read the Isiah Simmons scouting report from August '19 going into last season. Run to the virtual podium and then ......"There will be OL available in rounds 2-4 .... GMEen have to nail it when they scout! "
2020 NFL Draft Scouting Report Isaiah Simmons from August 5, 2019 - ( New Window )
RE: The cost benefit analysis while interesting and true...  
TMS : 3/26/2020 2:53 pm : link
In comment 14850544 Torrag said:
Quote:
is irrelevant.

The Top OT in this Draft is a comparable talent to Simmons/Okudah. In that situation the need there trumps taking any LB.

The only player in this Draft that would move me off of OT at #4 is Young.

If we can engineer a trade down a few spots that would be acceptable as it would add much needed Draft capital and still net us a legit Top 10 OT. I'd say #9 is as afar down as we could go and still feel comfortable.
. Trading down for extra pick in first round is ok with me if they pass on Simmons or Okudah . Two Ol, Tackle and Center in first works if we draft well.
RE: RE: RE: IN 1980 the Giants were 4 -12, could not run the FB, had 2 ProBowl LBs  
OdellLovesOBJ : 3/26/2020 3:09 pm : link
In comment 14850564 OdellLovesOBJ said:
Quote:
In comment 14850385 DannyBoy said:
[quote] In comment 14850334 edavisiii said:


Quote:


They had crap for RBs, but had Harry Carson, Brad VanPelt (both Pro Bowl Level Players) and another good LB in Brian Kelly.. Two of the top three players in the draft, George Rogers and Freeman McNeil were RBs. Wash took Rogers at 1. The Giants were up 2nd and took another linebacker over McNeil. People screamed! "WTF are we taking another LB for, we need a RB!" The LB was Lawrence Taylor. You take the best player available. We "had to take a OL" in 2015 an we got Flowers. I've read a lot of articles saying these tackles are not a sure thing. In Valentine's View" Jim Nagy, director of the Senior Bowl, addresses the subject.
There will be OL available in rounds 2-4 that will be good RTs or Cs! GMEen have to nail it when they scout!
But no one knows the GMen's board. One of them could be rated higher but I doubt it.

Good Read! Link - ( New Window )



I pretty much agree. The only time you take position is when it is either the final piece (but then trade back) or more likely because the two players are close enough on your board.

I will say, we need to protect the Franchise QB and open holes for Barkley.

Respectfully I will disagree and ask everyone to read the Isiah Simmons scouting report from August '19 going into last season. Run to the virtual podium and then ......"There will be OL available in rounds 2-4 .... GMEen have to nail it when they scout! " 2020 NFL Draft Scouting Report Isaiah Simmons from August 5, 2019 - ( New Window )


Sorry respectfully AGREE ...cabin fever , apologies
RE: Look  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 3/26/2020 3:15 pm : link
In comment 14850306 mdthedream said:
Quote:
The Giants have been looking for a free agent tackle for ever. It is was to much money and most are to old. We got two LBs that are decent and will do just fine cheaply. Simmons I like a lot but at 4 it seems high for a lb that just runs and isn't really a passrusher.

I would gladly have taken Jessie Armstead at 4, good thing we got him in the 8th round or whatever. A LB who flies all over the field and is a wet blanket on every play but a long pass and changes the complexion of the game.
RE: the OT are concerning  
LBH15 : 3/26/2020 3:20 pm : link
In comment 14850558 SteelGiant said:
Quote:
Wirfs I have heard some project him at being a great guard and could be a Right Tackle

Wills who has a lot good things as negatives where his effort was in question - or maybe is strong and got bored on plays or brute strength is what he relies on - other negatives written were - he have never played Left tackle - wide stance does not handle counter moves well - Pre-snap penalties were a frequent problem as he recorded multiple false start fouls

Becton - is raw and needs improve technique - has high ceiling but may need time to develop into a left tackle at the NFL

Feel free to debunk or make me feel better about these negatives


Seems like you only want to see the negatives in the OTs. Well, maybe you should go watch films on Solder the last two seasons, or the Giants Right Tackle and see if you see any issues. Oh wait, I forgot...they don’t even have a starting Right Tackle on the roster.

Let’s do this another way. Ok, you propose they draft Simmons...ok fine. Talented guy and will help undoubtedly help the defense. But please give us your strategy as to who plays RT and Center this season, and who plays LT after Giants cut Solder at the end of next season in a cap move?
Comparing the value of a quality tackle vs a Jag LB doesn’t do it for  
Ivan15 : 3/26/2020 3:51 pm : link
me.
RE: RE: the OT are concerning  
SteelGiant : 3/26/2020 3:52 pm : link
In comment 14850618 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14850558 SteelGiant said:


Quote:


Wirfs I have heard some project him at being a great guard and could be a Right Tackle

Wills who has a lot good things as negatives where his effort was in question - or maybe is strong and got bored on plays or brute strength is what he relies on - other negatives written were - he have never played Left tackle - wide stance does not handle counter moves well - Pre-snap penalties were a frequent problem as he recorded multiple false start fouls

Becton - is raw and needs improve technique - has high ceiling but may need time to develop into a left tackle at the NFL

Feel free to debunk or make me feel better about these negatives



Seems like you only want to see the negatives in the OTs. Well, maybe you should go watch films on Solder the last two seasons, or the Giants Right Tackle and see if you see any issues. Oh wait, I forgot...they don’t even have a starting Right Tackle on the roster.

Let’s do this another way. Ok, you propose they draft Simmons...ok fine. Talented guy and will help undoubtedly help the defense. But please give us your strategy as to who plays RT and Center this season, and who plays LT after Giants cut Solder at the end of next season in a cap move?


I just messing with some who always focus on negatives - I have no problem with getting a tackle but he better be a good left tackle, I think you can get a right tackle in the second round if you had to - there are tons of players that start in the league at right from later rounds. I think we find a RT could fall to us in the second this year and I think there will be a LT in the draft next year. Because I think we will do a little better this year so maybe we pick closer to 10 then we pick 1. Just like this year there will be Tackles available near 10 to pick like there is every year - but a Simmons style LB will not drop that far.

We are not going to fix all of our problem in one draft - If we are picking at 4 and we think Simmons is the best player and he also fits a need - we take LB in 1 - and pick a tackle and center in later rounds - next year we grab another tackle.

I think a philosophy difference we may have is I think O-line is a way more coach-able position than defense - Our defense was worse than our line last year and also cannot be ignored. I think finding lineman later in drafts is more common of a possibility.

If the Giants think one of those lineman is a Stud Left Tackle by all means draft him at 4 - I'm not going to complain - those guys are rare as well - I'm just not conviced one of these lineman is one of them compared Simmons playing LB in the NFL successfully.

Several very fair points Steel.  
LBH15 : 3/26/2020 4:01 pm : link
Although be careful with that whole Oline is more coachable aspect particularly when it comes to OL and LB. It may be that the only thing worse than Giants inability to find talented lineman and linebackers is their baffling inability to develop any whatsoever.
Jessie had a knee injury that at the time was considered ....  
Torrag : 3/26/2020 4:06 pm : link
much more a career problem than it is today. That's the only reason we were able to draft him where we did. Man did I love watching him on Sunday's. That said Jessie played a much more physical style than Simmons is currently.
RE: RE: RE: the OT are concerning  
MeadowlandsMike : 3/26/2020 4:18 pm : link
In comment 14850663 SteelGiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14850618 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 14850558 SteelGiant said:


Quote:


Wirfs I have heard some project him at being a great guard and could be a Right Tackle

Wills who has a lot good things as negatives where his effort was in question - or maybe is strong and got bored on plays or brute strength is what he relies on - other negatives written were - he have never played Left tackle - wide stance does not handle counter moves well - Pre-snap penalties were a frequent problem as he recorded multiple false start fouls

Becton - is raw and needs improve technique - has high ceiling but may need time to develop into a left tackle at the NFL

Feel free to debunk or make me feel better about these negatives



Seems like you only want to see the negatives in the OTs. Well, maybe you should go watch films on Solder the last two seasons, or the Giants Right Tackle and see if you see any issues. Oh wait, I forgot...they don’t even have a starting Right Tackle on the roster.

Let’s do this another way. Ok, you propose they draft Simmons...ok fine. Talented guy and will help undoubtedly help the defense. But please give us your strategy as to who plays RT and Center this season, and who plays LT after Giants cut Solder at the end of next season in a cap move?



I just messing with some who always focus on negatives - I have no problem with getting a tackle but he better be a good left tackle, I think you can get a right tackle in the second round if you had to - there are tons of players that start in the league at right from later rounds. I think we find a RT could fall to us in the second this year and I think there will be a LT in the draft next year. Because I think we will do a little better this year so maybe we pick closer to 10 then we pick 1. Just like this year there will be Tackles available near 10 to pick like there is every year - but a Simmons style LB will not drop that far.

We are not going to fix all of our problem in one draft - If we are picking at 4 and we think Simmons is the best player and he also fits a need - we take LB in 1 - and pick a tackle and center in later rounds - next year we grab another tackle.

I think a philosophy difference we may have is I think O-line is a way more coach-able position than defense - Our defense was worse than our line last year and also cannot be ignored. I think finding lineman later in drafts is more common of a possibility.

If the Giants think one of those lineman is a Stud Left Tackle by all means draft him at 4 - I'm not going to complain - those guys are rare as well - I'm just not conviced one of these lineman is one of them compared Simmons playing LB in the NFL successfully.


Apparently they feel that way about Wirfs and a few reports about them really liking Wills too. Both definitely have at least a decent potential to play LT. Though I am highest on Becton and Wills to dominate at that position .
RE: Several very fair points Steel.  
SteelGiant : 3/26/2020 4:19 pm : link
In comment 14850674 LBH15 said:
Quote:
Although be careful with that whole Oline is more coachable aspect particularly when it comes to OL and LB. It may be that the only thing worse than Giants inability to find talented lineman and linebackers is their baffling inability to develop any whatsoever.


LOL - I do not disagree with you there - we are between rock and hard place. This discussion will not be answered for a while - but I think we agree on this - whoever it is we pick needs to hit - Either a Stud left tackle that makes the whole line better - OR a stud linebacker who makes the whole defense better - we argue on which player is most likely to do one of those things.

I hope the Giants have done their homework more than we have. I would love to protect our assets too but we also have to protect the scoreboard. I dont see this offense being designed to be the greatest show on turf or an Andy Reid offense but I do know our defense needs to be equipped to cover an Andy Reid offense. I think Simmons can do that and I think we can find an answer to make our offensive line respectable enough to put to do enough damage.
RE: RE: Several very fair points Steel.  
MeadowlandsMike : 3/26/2020 4:22 pm : link
In comment 14850700 SteelGiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14850674 LBH15 said:


Quote:


Although be careful with that whole Oline is more coachable aspect particularly when it comes to OL and LB. It may be that the only thing worse than Giants inability to find talented lineman and linebackers is their baffling inability to develop any whatsoever.



LOL - I do not disagree with you there - we are between rock and hard place. This discussion will not be answered for a while - but I think we agree on this - whoever it is we pick needs to hit - Either a Stud left tackle that makes the whole line better - OR a stud linebacker who makes the whole defense better - we argue on which player is most likely to do one of those things.

I hope the Giants have done their homework more than we have. I would love to protect our assets too but we also have to protect the scoreboard. I dont see this offense being designed to be the greatest show on turf or an Andy Reid offense but I do know our defense needs to be equipped to cover an Andy Reid offense. I think Simmons can do that and I think we can find an answer to make our offensive line respectable enough to put to do enough damage.


That stud LB maybe Connely. That kid was really opening eyes and quickly before he went down. Then we added Blake who we paid enough dollars to to say they think he is a high level starter . Mayo was a capable rotation guy. Ximines and Carter a year older . No doubt coverage is still an issue but we may have a bunch of sub packages with less LBs and more DBs like most teams deploy nowadays anyways
MM  
LBH15 : 3/26/2020 4:32 pm : link
I think your post kind of lays out the thinking as to going OT. The defense has been given a bunch of recent investments and then added some more this free agency. Not saying they are proving any rewards yet but my view is DG isn’t going to ignore tackle any further.
"but my view is DG isn’t going to ignore tackle any further"  
Torrag : 3/26/2020 4:39 pm : link
Agreed. especially with the majority of Draft projections having the Top 7 OT/OC gone before #36. I doubt he's going to leave his franchise QB's and RB's future in the hands of the 8th best OL in the Draft.

Especially when it's such a talented Top 10 group to choose from.
LB aren't worth as much in free agency  
WideRight : 3/26/2020 4:42 pm : link
because their future value is not as great. They don't last as long at a high level. Or those that do never make it to free agency
RE: MM  
MeadowlandsMike : 3/26/2020 5:01 pm : link
In comment 14850715 LBH15 said:
Quote:
I think your post kind of lays out the thinking as to going OT. The defense has been given a bunch of recent investments and then added some more this free agency. Not saying they are proving any rewards yet but my view is DG isn’t going to ignore tackle any further.


Every single thing is pointing that way right now. Fleming at 4 mill is a swing tackle back up only or at best a stop gap while the rookie gets up to speed .
RE: RE: MM  
LBH15 : 3/26/2020 5:12 pm : link
In comment 14850736 MeadowlandsMike said:
Quote:
In comment 14850715 LBH15 said:


Quote:


I think your post kind of lays out the thinking as to going OT. The defense has been given a bunch of recent investments and then added some more this free agency. Not saying they are proving any rewards yet but my view is DG isn’t going to ignore tackle any further.



Every single thing is pointing that way right now. Fleming at 4 mill is a swing tackle back up only or at best a stop gap while the rookie gets up to speed .


Yep. I think Fleming was also to get another body in depth chart at OT in case they do decide to play around with that early pick and/or the draft afterwards doesn’t fall their way to still get some quality OTs.
RE: RE: RE: MM  
MeadowlandsMike : 3/26/2020 5:19 pm : link
In comment 14850744 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14850736 MeadowlandsMike said:


Quote:


In comment 14850715 LBH15 said:


Quote:


I think your post kind of lays out the thinking as to going OT. The defense has been given a bunch of recent investments and then added some more this free agency. Not saying they are proving any rewards yet but my view is DG isn’t going to ignore tackle any further.



Every single thing is pointing that way right now. Fleming at 4 mill is a swing tackle back up only or at best a stop gap while the rookie gets up to speed .



Yep. I think Fleming was also to get another body in depth chart at OT in case they do decide to play around with that early pick and/or the draft afterwards doesn’t fall their way to still get some quality OTs.


If they can get D Williams on the cheap that would be a low risk high reward get. 2 years removed from injury and still young.

Rookie/Solder-Hernendez-Gates/rookie/Pulley-Zietler-D.Will/Fleming/Gates
RE: He is  
allstarjim : 3/26/2020 6:15 pm : link
In comment 14850386 mdthedream said:
Quote:
230lbs he is no passrusher.


At the combine he weighed in closer to 240 lbs than 230 lbs. He weighed in at 238 lbs.

Von Miller weighed in at the combine at 246 lbs.

I don't think Simmons is a guy you're going to have in a pass rushing role, but he is an excellent situational blitzer and I'm pretty sure he can bend well enough to get the edge. He's not going to try and overpower guys, he's going to beat them with speed, and he has plenty of that.

I won't be upset if he is taken at 4.
RE: RE: RE: RE: MM  
LBH15 : 3/26/2020 6:54 pm : link
In comment 14850749 MeadowlandsMike said:
Quote:
In comment 14850744 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 14850736 MeadowlandsMike said:


Quote:


In comment 14850715 LBH15 said:


Quote:


I think your post kind of lays out the thinking as to going OT. The defense has been given a bunch of recent investments and then added some more this free agency. Not saying they are proving any rewards yet but my view is DG isn’t going to ignore tackle any further.



Every single thing is pointing that way right now. Fleming at 4 mill is a swing tackle back up only or at best a stop gap while the rookie gets up to speed .



Yep. I think Fleming was also to get another body in depth chart at OT in case they do decide to play around with that early pick and/or the draft afterwards doesn’t fall their way to still get some quality OTs.



If they can get D Williams on the cheap that would be a low risk high reward get. 2 years removed from injury and still young.

Rookie/Solder-Hernendez-Gates/rookie/Pulley-Zietler-D.Will/Fleming/Gates


Think it was the Jet game last year when Eric Smith came in to replace an injured Solder at Left Tackle. Except that even though Smith was the "assigned" swing tackle that he had never taken even snap at practice that given week.

Our new coaching staff has tough shoes to fill.
RE: RE: the OT are concerning  
OdellLovesOBJ : 3/26/2020 7:09 pm : link
In comment 14850618 LBH15 said:
[quote] In comment 14850558 SteelGiant said:


Quote:


Wirfs I have heard some project him at being a great guard and could be a Right Tackle

Wills who has a lot good things as negatives where his effort was in question - or maybe is strong and got bored on plays or brute strength is what he relies on - other negatives written were - he have never played Left tackle - wide stance does not handle counter moves well - Pre-snap penalties were a frequent problem as he recorded multiple false start fouls

Becton - is raw and needs improve technique - has high ceiling but may need time to develop into a left tackle at the NFL

Feel free to debunk or make me feel better about these negatives



Seems like you only want to see the negatives in the OTs. Well, maybe you should go watch films on Solder the last two seasons, or the Giants Right Tackle and see if you see any issues. Oh wait, I forgot...they don’t even have a starting Right Tackle on the roster.

Let’s do this another way. Ok, you propose they draft Simmons...ok fine. Talented guy and will help undoubtedly help the defense. But please give us your strategy as to who plays RT and Center this season, and who plays LT after Giants cut Solder at the end of next season in a cap move? [/quote.

When we look at our draft/FA history for building the OL, our the best lines ('86 , '90, '01, '07, '11) were a mixture of both, not just high draft picks. Pugh, Richburg , Flowers from ''13-15 drafts, were two firsts and a 2nd rounder that just didn't pan out. Flowers and Pugh ended up at different positions (tackle to guard) . Only Eric Moore was a top 10 pick on a championship team ('90 team, he also moved to guard). Will Hernandez a 2nd round pick from '18, regressed last year but can possibly improve with hopefully better coaching. We can find the value/talent for the line but not at #4 with this draft class.
I can’t blame the giants for going Simmons, okudah or the OT  
djm : 3/26/2020 9:30 pm : link
Whichever player they love the most they should take. If the players all fall Into that same rating group, I’d take the OT.

Think a DC with imagination could find a place for this guy to play  
TMS : 3/26/2020 11:26 pm : link
with his skill set. A game changing athletic MLB has always been missing from this team. Carson was great but sideline to sideline talent is very special. Rarely get a shot at them. Unless you draft very early.
djm: If the players all fall in the same rating group I’d take the OT"  
Torrag : 3/27/2020 3:33 am : link
For me they do and I would as well.

Wills or Becton.

One guy ready to step in and play at a high level in both phases. The other a man child with upside off the charts.
RE: djm: If the players all fall in the same rating group I’d take the OT  
djm : 3/27/2020 9:34 am : link
In comment 14851045 Torrag said:
Quote:
For me they do and I would as well.

Wills or Becton.

One guy ready to step in and play at a high level in both phases. The other a man child with upside off the charts.


usually when it just makes so much sense and all the signs are there, the giants go with the chalk pick, so to speak. there might be some elements of surprise in that pick, but it still fits the narrative. Last year with Jones, they needed the young QB--2017 with Barkley they needed the offensive star to help white wash the shit show of 2017, plus he was clearly the most ready made skill player in that draft.

The Giants need OTs. This draft is loaded with OTs. The Giants spent their FA money on D and drafted a bunch of defensive players last year. Everything is lining up for OT early. The only variable or caveat is the trade down possibility. And even then they still go OT.

and I also think it's going to be Becton  
djm : 3/27/2020 9:35 am : link
the Judge (Garrett) hiring is going to embolden the Giants to draft more projects like Becton and take more risks like this.
Out of curiosity regarding philosophy for the OT fans  
SteelGiant : 3/27/2020 10:23 am : link
Hypothetically - Young falls to #4 - are you still picking the Tackle or have you changed your mind?
Young  
Carl in CT : 3/27/2020 11:43 am : link
Would be the choice for 95% on this board.
RE: Young  
SteelGiant : 3/27/2020 12:17 pm : link
In comment 14851317 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
Would be the choice for 95% on this board.


That is what I think too - which is what makes me nervous about the Tackle prospects - I do not believe BPA board is really Young, 4 offensive Tackles, then Simmons

I also think if you truly believe one of these or 2 of these tackles are that good, they should be #1 choice regardless if Young was there or not based on the philosophy that we need to fix the line above all else.
Draft Day Decision Tree  
Big Blue Beerguy : 3/27/2020 2:47 pm : link
Let's assume the Giants scouts agree with the draftnick "talking head" consensus: There are five players most likely to succeed in the NFL: Young, Burrows, Okudah, Brown, and Simmons. If we get to pick #4 and Young or Burrows are available - we jump (think about what we could trade Jones for!). Otherwise, try to trade down. If we find no trade partners, we pick one of the elite players left (probably Simmons or Brown). Better yet, trade down to #6 with the Chargers for, say, a 3rd and 5th rounder. At 6 the same non-QB players are likely to be there (assume Chargers and 'Fins take QBs). Then try to trade down a few more spots with a team dying for Simmons or Brown (e.g., the Jags need D-line help badly). Let's say we get another 3rd and a 7th from the Jags. Then we take one of the top Offensive Tackles at #9 overall, and we've added two 3rds, a 5th, and a 7th.
RE: Draft Day Decision Tree  
SteelGiant : 3/27/2020 3:39 pm : link
In comment 14851553 Big Blue Beerguy said:
Quote:
Let's assume the Giants scouts agree with the draftnick "talking head" consensus: There are five players most likely to succeed in the NFL: Young, Burrows, Okudah, Brown, and Simmons. If we get to pick #4 and Young or Burrows are available - we jump (think about what we could trade Jones for!). Otherwise, try to trade down. If we find no trade partners, we pick one of the elite players left (probably Simmons or Brown). Better yet, trade down to #6 with the Chargers for, say, a 3rd and 5th rounder. At 6 the same non-QB players are likely to be there (assume Chargers and 'Fins take QBs). Then try to trade down a few more spots with a team dying for Simmons or Brown (e.g., the Jags need D-line help badly). Let's say we get another 3rd and a 7th from the Jags. Then we take one of the top Offensive Tackles at #9 overall, and we've added two 3rds, a 5th, and a 7th.


I agree if taking an OT I would hedge bet with a trade down too.
My dream scenario would be that Miami does not trade with Detroit and Simmons is available at 4, then we put pressure on Miami to trade #5 and #26 to make sure they dont get leaped by a competitor for their QB. Roll the dice and Draft Simmons at #5. Then if an OT falls a bit we try to trade our #26 and #36 which is worth 1240 points which in theory could allow you move back up and grab a tackle as high as 11 is there is a partner willing to move down. But that is a pipe dream scenario - but we would all win in that scenario we get Simmons and a OT - so until the draft - I am keeping my crazy fan dream, if you are going to dream you might as well dream GIANT
djm: caveat is the trade down possibility, even then they still go OT"  
Torrag : 3/27/2020 3:47 pm : link
Yep, I don't see a way we aren't drafting a Round 1 OT. Factor in Jones development and the investment in Saquon and they'd be almost negligent to leave the position in such squalor as it is now.
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