Giants and the number 4 pick

Pos. Franchise tag Transition tag
QB $26,895,000 $24,373,000
DE $19,316,000 $16,338,000
WR $18,491,000 $15,926,000
CB $16,471,000 $14,570,000
LB $16,266,000 $14,080,000
OL $16,102,000 $14,666,000
DT $15,500,000 $12,321,000
S $12,735,000 $10,801,000
RB $12,474,000 $10,189,000
TE $11,076,000 $9,267,000
ST $5,297,000 $4,884,000

the issue is that the Giants may (and almost certainly do) not view these players as equals. if their grade for a LB is qualitatively higher than the grade for any OT, then you get the LB and worry about cost later.

But why would it matter if the team selects a player a little too high as long as they get it right. Years from now we will not care if that player was taken a few picks to high as long as he is good at what he does and lasts a while.

In comment 14850293 GFiLA said:

Quote:

But why would it matter if the team selects a player a little too high as long as they get it right. Years from now we will not care if that player was taken a few picks to high as long as he is good at what he does and lasts a while.

Yeah, people bitch a lot less now about Jones being the 6th pick. If you get it right, it doesn't matter tbh.

This comes down to getting the best LB at 4 and the 7th or 8th best OL at 36; or a trade down to get maybe the top or 2nd best OT and 2nd-3rd best LB in the 1st round plus another high quality guy at 36. If a good partner exists, you have to take the trade down ...

The Giants have been looking for a free agent tackle for ever. It is was to much money and most are to old. We got two LBs that are decent and will do just fine cheaply. Simmons I like a lot but at 4 it seems high for a lb that just runs and isn't really a passrusher.

and take the best tackle and than get another player in the first. I hope that happens.

Simmons isn’t the best LB. Murray is the best imo, Baun personally may be better as well. Simmons is a freak athlete yes, but may end up being a better Safety in the NFL.

if you could add 1 of them immediately at age 21 and healthy. IMO the answer is "either one would be great!".

So the secondary question is how confident you are the LB or the OT have and will reach an elite level. Then you pick the guy you are most confident in.

In the theoretical decision I think I'd lean towards Tyron because he has truly been elite at his position, but on the other side I'm less confident any of the OT's in this draft will be as good and I think Simmons is a better prospect than any LB that's come out in the last several years (including the Devins + LVE, and Leonard, who all made a big impact on day 1).

The only way you take Simmons at 4 is if he truly considered the next coming of Sean Taylor, but Taylor was extremely physical and as of now Simmons doesn’t seem to be very physical. Physicality is needed.
OT should be the pick if one stands out a lot compared to others.

They had crap for RBs, but had Harry Carson, Brad VanPelt (both Pro Bowl Level Players) and another good LB in Brian Kelly.. Two of the top three players in the draft, George Rogers and Freeman McNeil were RBs. Wash took Rogers at 1. The Giants were up 2nd and took another linebacker over McNeil. People screamed! "WTF are we taking another LB for, we need a RB!" The LB was Lawrence Taylor. You take the best player available. We "had to take a OL" in 2015 an we got Flowers. I've read a lot of articles saying these tackles are not a sure thing. In Valentine's View" Jim Nagy, director of the Senior Bowl, addresses the subject.
There will be OL available in rounds 2-4 that will be good RTs or Cs! GMEen have to nail it when they scout!
But no one knows the GMen's board. One of them could be rated higher but I doubt it.

Good Read!
Link - ( New Window )

The analysis in the OP works only if you make the assumption that the LB and the OT are equally as talented. However, the talent evaluation is left out of the equation.

All things being equal, I agree that the OT makes more sense than a LB. In this draft, I would be in favor of OT at #4 if the draft grade is close. But I wouldn't pass up an A+ talent at LB for a B+ talent at OT when I could get a B or B- in round 2.

LT was also a passrusher so no problem with that if I saw Simmons as a passrusher.

different era no free agency so you just built a team.

round and round we go.

Simmons will be awesome.
Simmons will suck.
The OT will be awesome.
The OT will suck.

We need to get it right - that is where we divide.

I right now have more faith that Simmons will be an Pro-Bowl Linebacker than the OT will be a Pro-Bowl OT.

I think our scouts can find a tackle and a Center in this draft or next without picking in the top 5.

I do not think you find another LB like Simmons outside the top 5 ever.

You can read why I feel that way in 4 other threads.

Is the board DG will be looking at!

Funny post. You just claim that Simmons is closer to an all pro than any of the tackles? How the heck did you come up with that gem?

Simmons may end up being a productive player but the impact he had on the college game will be tough to duplicate. Wider hashes in college create more space and room to roam. He won’t have the wide side of the field to hang out and pretend he’s covering the slot. If you watch him play safety or where he lined up in the safety role he had designated assignments. He wasn’t just playing centerfield. Often he would come forward. The Sean Taylor comment is spot on. Unless he’s the second coming of Sean Taylor you don’t take him at 4. He will ultimately be a 2 down player. He cannot play safety full time as I don’t think he can run with nfl WRs. I truly believe he’ll struggle defending the top nfl tight ends with their strength and size. Like UGA said the best linebacker in the class is Murray. He can rush the passer with the best of them in this class outside of chase young. He’s a devastating blitzer. He’s physically imposing. Granted he’s the same weight as Simmons but look at their build and mentality. It’s night and day.

Now let’s get back to the tackle. Wills is an instant starter day 1 with pro bowl potential. Best hands best feet in the class and a great pass protector. He has all the traits to end up in the pro bowl even after year 1. If I’m the GM I don’t move at all unless someone throws me a deal I can’t refuse. I sit tight take my tackle and protect my 2 major assets. Heck, you can even gamble and try and find another tackle late in the draft. But that first pick, you better hit on and hit big. The impact of a top tier tackle vs Simmons is no question in my mind

In comment 14850350 mdthedream said:

Quote:

LT was also a passrusher so no problem with that if I saw Simmons as a passrusher.

Pretty sure he had eight sacks last year and that's pretty good for someone who was used in a variety of ways on D, and not primarily as a pass rusher.

it comes down to whether or not they think any of the OL can be a left tackle. If they view any of them as a really good LT prospect, then the pick is honestly a no brainer.

If they view majority of the OT's as RT only, and possibly G, well then the pick comes down to what they value...a really good RT, or a defensive playmaker who isn't going to rush the passer.

In comment 14850334 edavisiii said:

Quote:

They had crap for RBs, but had Harry Carson, Brad VanPelt (both Pro Bowl Level Players) and another good LB in Brian Kelly.. Two of the top three players in the draft, George Rogers and Freeman McNeil were RBs. Wash took Rogers at 1. The Giants were up 2nd and took another linebacker over McNeil. People screamed! "WTF are we taking another LB for, we need a RB!" The LB was Lawrence Taylor. You take the best player available. We "had to take a OL" in 2015 an we got Flowers. I've read a lot of articles saying these tackles are not a sure thing. In Valentine's View" Jim Nagy, director of the Senior Bowl, addresses the subject. There will be OL available in rounds 2-4 that will be good RTs or Cs! GMEen have to nail it when they scout! But no one knows the GMen's board. One of them could be rated higher but I doubt it. Good Read! Link - ( New Window )

I pretty much agree. The only time you take position is when it is either the final piece (but then trade back) or more likely because the two players are close enough on your board.

I will say, we need to protect the Franchise QB and open holes for Barkley.

230lbs he is no passrusher.

I would lean towards OL with our first pick. This has gone on for too long now, and a lot of these OL are really nice prospects. I'm sure they all have warts. Every player does. Let's get the best OL in this draft and suit him up. Protect Jones at all costs.

agree completely.

If you think that OT you picking can be a FRANCHISE Left Tackle then that is a good pick - if you have concerns then its a terrible one at 4.

Look at the 2013 draft - if that one is similar in talent I dont know but a lot of tackles drafted - not a good year for QBs coming out

Eric Fisher (1 overall) is one of them that noticeable that you think they could be the best player in the draft?

Luke Joeckel (2 Overall) he was a bust

Lane Johnson (4 Overall) - played RT in pros

DJ Fluker (11 Overall) - did not play left tackle in pros

Justin Pugh (19 Overall) - played Guard in pros

I think Simmons can play LB in the pros like Ryan Shazier - so that is different than comparing to Sean Taylor

.

Turn out to be pro bowl players the cost of renewing that contract will be very similar.
Should not really be a consideration in my view.

just as pure position is. Going into the draft that myopic would be a problem. But I doubt any teams do.

If the Giants went into this draft with the highest rated player being a RB, obviously they are not taking one with Barkley already there. If the highest rated player on the board was QB, they are likely not picking that either.

I suspect positional value/position of need trumps everything when the player ratings are virtually equal. But you don't take lesser players because they fill a hole when your team is full of holes.

Than all other OL positions

In comment 14850386 mdthedream said:

Quote:

230lbs he is no passrusher.

238 at the combine and his frame can easily support another 10 pounds. He’s not going to bull rush. He’s going to finesse rush and speed rush and he’s got the skill to do both. His length and leaping ability also is fantastic in the middle where he can bat down passes or flow through gaps.

… and I'm not... I'd be putting all of my chips on a draft day trade with San Diego. It looks like they will be competing with Miami on a draft day QB. And I would include us drafting a tackle at 6, probably Wirfs.

I think us Simmons guys have talked enough.

Can you OT fans please consolidate your beliefs on which OT is
the best of the bunch and why? - serious question, cause I hear a lot of draft a tackle - and then it ends with another players name - are they all that great?

Also feel free you tell me the weakness of the players you like too -even if they only have one weakness like having a small right index finger - so I know what I can focus on when debunking your preference j/k

In comment 14850529 SteelGiant said:

Quote:

I think us Simmons guys have talked enough. Can you OT fans please consolidate your beliefs on which OT is the best of the bunch and why? - serious question, cause I hear a lot of draft a tackle - and then it ends with another players name - are they all that great? Also feel free you tell me the weakness of the players you like too -even if they only have one weakness like having a small right index finger - so I know what I can focus on when debunking your preference j/k

Wills and Becton

is irrelevant.

The Top OT in this Draft is a comparable talent to Simmons/Okudah. In that situation the need there trumps taking any LB.

The only player in this Draft that would move me off of OT at #4 is Young.

If we can engineer a trade down a few spots that would be acceptable as it would add much needed Draft capital and still net us a legit Top 10 OT. I'd say #9 is as afar down as we could go and still feel comfortable.

Wirfs I have heard some project him at being a great guard and could be a Right Tackle

Wills who has a lot good things as negatives where his effort was in question - or maybe is strong and got bored on plays or brute strength is what he relies on - other negatives written were - he have never played Left tackle - wide stance does not handle counter moves well - Pre-snap penalties were a frequent problem as he recorded multiple false start fouls

Becton - is raw and needs improve technique - has high ceiling but may need time to develop into a left tackle at the NFL

Feel free to debunk or make me feel better about these negatives

In comment 14850334 edavisiii said:

Quote:

They had crap for RBs, but had Harry Carson, Brad VanPelt (both Pro Bowl Level Players) and another good LB in Brian Kelly.. Two of the top three players in the draft, George Rogers and Freeman McNeil were RBs. Wash took Rogers at 1. The Giants were up 2nd and took another linebacker over McNeil. People screamed! "WTF are we taking another LB for, we need a RB!" The LB was Lawrence Taylor. You take the best player available. We "had to take a OL" in 2015 an we got Flowers. I've read a lot of articles saying these tackles are not a sure thing. In Valentine's View" Jim Nagy, director of the Senior Bowl, addresses the subject. There will be OL available in rounds 2-4 that will be good RTs or Cs! GMEen have to nail it when they scout! But no one knows the GMen's board. One of them could be rated higher but I doubt it. Good Read! Link - ( New Window )

. Good post. Thanks agree on the premise of BPA.

In comment 14850385 DannyBoy said:
[quote] In comment 14850334 edavisiii said:


Quote:


They had crap for RBs, but had Harry Carson, Brad VanPelt (both Pro Bowl Level Players) and another good LB in Brian Kelly.. Two of the top three players in the draft, George Rogers and Freeman McNeil were RBs. Wash took Rogers at 1. The Giants were up 2nd and took another linebacker over McNeil. People screamed! "WTF are we taking another LB for, we need a RB!" The LB was Lawrence Taylor. You take the best player available. We "had to take a OL" in 2015 an we got Flowers. I've read a lot of articles saying these tackles are not a sure thing. In Valentine's View" Jim Nagy, director of the Senior Bowl, addresses the subject.
There will be OL available in rounds 2-4 that will be good RTs or Cs! GMEen have to nail it when they scout!
But no one knows the GMen's board. One of them could be rated higher but I doubt it.

Good Read! Link - ( New Window )



I pretty much agree. The only time you take position is when it is either the final piece (but then trade back) or more likely because the two players are close enough on your board.

I will say, we need to protect the Franchise QB and open holes for Barkley.

Respectfully I will disagree and ask everyone to read the Isiah Simmons scouting report from August '19 going into last season. Run to the virtual podium and then ......"There will be OL available in rounds 2-4 .... GMEen have to nail it when they scout! "
2020 NFL Draft Scouting Report Isaiah Simmons from August 5, 2019 - ( New Window )

In comment 14850544 Torrag said:

Quote:

is irrelevant. The Top OT in this Draft is a comparable talent to Simmons/Okudah. In that situation the need there trumps taking any LB. The only player in this Draft that would move me off of OT at #4 is Young. If we can engineer a trade down a few spots that would be acceptable as it would add much needed Draft capital and still net us a legit Top 10 OT. I'd say #9 is as afar down as we could go and still feel comfortable.

. Trading down for extra pick in first round is ok with me if they pass on Simmons or Okudah . Two Ol, Tackle and Center in first works if we draft well.

In comment 14850564 OdellLovesOBJ said:

Quote:

In comment 14850385 DannyBoy said: [quote] In comment 14850334 edavisiii said: Quote: They had crap for RBs, but had Harry Carson, Brad VanPelt (both Pro Bowl Level Players) and another good LB in Brian Kelly.. Two of the top three players in the draft, George Rogers and Freeman McNeil were RBs. Wash took Rogers at 1. The Giants were up 2nd and took another linebacker over McNeil. People screamed! "WTF are we taking another LB for, we need a RB!" The LB was Lawrence Taylor. You take the best player available. We "had to take a OL" in 2015 an we got Flowers. I've read a lot of articles saying these tackles are not a sure thing. In Valentine's View" Jim Nagy, director of the Senior Bowl, addresses the subject. There will be OL available in rounds 2-4 that will be good RTs or Cs! GMEen have to nail it when they scout! But no one knows the GMen's board. One of them could be rated higher but I doubt it. Good Read! Link - ( New Window ) I pretty much agree. The only time you take position is when it is either the final piece (but then trade back) or more likely because the two players are close enough on your board. I will say, we need to protect the Franchise QB and open holes for Barkley. Respectfully I will disagree and ask everyone to read the Isiah Simmons scouting report from August '19 going into last season. Run to the virtual podium and then ......"There will be OL available in rounds 2-4 .... GMEen have to nail it when they scout! " 2020 NFL Draft Scouting Report Isaiah Simmons from August 5, 2019 - ( New Window )

Sorry respectfully AGREE ...cabin fever , apologies

In comment 14850306 mdthedream said:

Quote:

The Giants have been looking for a free agent tackle for ever. It is was to much money and most are to old. We got two LBs that are decent and will do just fine cheaply. Simmons I like a lot but at 4 it seems high for a lb that just runs and isn't really a passrusher.

I would gladly have taken Jessie Armstead at 4, good thing we got him in the 8th round or whatever. A LB who flies all over the field and is a wet blanket on every play but a long pass and changes the complexion of the game.

In comment 14850558 SteelGiant said:

Quote:

Wirfs I have heard some project him at being a great guard and could be a Right Tackle Wills who has a lot good things as negatives where his effort was in question - or maybe is strong and got bored on plays or brute strength is what he relies on - other negatives written were - he have never played Left tackle - wide stance does not handle counter moves well - Pre-snap penalties were a frequent problem as he recorded multiple false start fouls Becton - is raw and needs improve technique - has high ceiling but may need time to develop into a left tackle at the NFL Feel free to debunk or make me feel better about these negatives

Seems like you only want to see the negatives in the OTs. Well, maybe you should go watch films on Solder the last two seasons, or the Giants Right Tackle and see if you see any issues. Oh wait, I forgot...they don’t even have a starting Right Tackle on the roster.

Let’s do this another way. Ok, you propose they draft Simmons...ok fine. Talented guy and will help undoubtedly help the defense. But please give us your strategy as to who plays RT and Center this season, and who plays LT after Giants cut Solder at the end of next season in a cap move?

me.

In comment 14850618 LBH15 said:

Quote:

In comment 14850558 SteelGiant said: Quote: Wirfs I have heard some project him at being a great guard and could be a Right Tackle Wills who has a lot good things as negatives where his effort was in question - or maybe is strong and got bored on plays or brute strength is what he relies on - other negatives written were - he have never played Left tackle - wide stance does not handle counter moves well - Pre-snap penalties were a frequent problem as he recorded multiple false start fouls Becton - is raw and needs improve technique - has high ceiling but may need time to develop into a left tackle at the NFL Feel free to debunk or make me feel better about these negatives Seems like you only want to see the negatives in the OTs. Well, maybe you should go watch films on Solder the last two seasons, or the Giants Right Tackle and see if you see any issues. Oh wait, I forgot...they don’t even have a starting Right Tackle on the roster. Let’s do this another way. Ok, you propose they draft Simmons...ok fine. Talented guy and will help undoubtedly help the defense. But please give us your strategy as to who plays RT and Center this season, and who plays LT after Giants cut Solder at the end of next season in a cap move?

I just messing with some who always focus on negatives - I have no problem with getting a tackle but he better be a good left tackle, I think you can get a right tackle in the second round if you had to - there are tons of players that start in the league at right from later rounds. I think we find a RT could fall to us in the second this year and I think there will be a LT in the draft next year. Because I think we will do a little better this year so maybe we pick closer to 10 then we pick 1. Just like this year there will be Tackles available near 10 to pick like there is every year - but a Simmons style LB will not drop that far.

We are not going to fix all of our problem in one draft - If we are picking at 4 and we think Simmons is the best player and he also fits a need - we take LB in 1 - and pick a tackle and center in later rounds - next year we grab another tackle.

I think a philosophy difference we may have is I think O-line is a way more coach-able position than defense - Our defense was worse than our line last year and also cannot be ignored. I think finding lineman later in drafts is more common of a possibility.

If the Giants think one of those lineman is a Stud Left Tackle by all means draft him at 4 - I'm not going to complain - those guys are rare as well - I'm just not conviced one of these lineman is one of them compared Simmons playing LB in the NFL successfully.

Although be careful with that whole Oline is more coachable aspect particularly when it comes to OL and LB. It may be that the only thing worse than Giants inability to find talented lineman and linebackers is their baffling inability to develop any whatsoever.

much more a career problem than it is today. That's the only reason we were able to draft him where we did. Man did I love watching him on Sunday's. That said Jessie played a much more physical style than Simmons is currently.

In comment 14850663 SteelGiant said:

Quote:

In comment 14850618 LBH15 said: Quote: In comment 14850558 SteelGiant said: Quote: Wirfs I have heard some project him at being a great guard and could be a Right Tackle Wills who has a lot good things as negatives where his effort was in question - or maybe is strong and got bored on plays or brute strength is what he relies on - other negatives written were - he have never played Left tackle - wide stance does not handle counter moves well - Pre-snap penalties were a frequent problem as he recorded multiple false start fouls Becton - is raw and needs improve technique - has high ceiling but may need time to develop into a left tackle at the NFL Feel free to debunk or make me feel better about these negatives Seems like you only want to see the negatives in the OTs. Well, maybe you should go watch films on Solder the last two seasons, or the Giants Right Tackle and see if you see any issues. Oh wait, I forgot...they don’t even have a starting Right Tackle on the roster. Let’s do this another way. Ok, you propose they draft Simmons...ok fine. Talented guy and will help undoubtedly help the defense. But please give us your strategy as to who plays RT and Center this season, and who plays LT after Giants cut Solder at the end of next season in a cap move? I just messing with some who always focus on negatives - I have no problem with getting a tackle but he better be a good left tackle, I think you can get a right tackle in the second round if you had to - there are tons of players that start in the league at right from later rounds. I think we find a RT could fall to us in the second this year and I think there will be a LT in the draft next year. Because I think we will do a little better this year so maybe we pick closer to 10 then we pick 1. Just like this year there will be Tackles available near 10 to pick like there is every year - but a Simmons style LB will not drop that far. We are not going to fix all of our problem in one draft - If we are picking at 4 and we think Simmons is the best player and he also fits a need - we take LB in 1 - and pick a tackle and center in later rounds - next year we grab another tackle. I think a philosophy difference we may have is I think O-line is a way more coach-able position than defense - Our defense was worse than our line last year and also cannot be ignored. I think finding lineman later in drafts is more common of a possibility. If the Giants think one of those lineman is a Stud Left Tackle by all means draft him at 4 - I'm not going to complain - those guys are rare as well - I'm just not conviced one of these lineman is one of them compared Simmons playing LB in the NFL successfully.

Apparently they feel that way about Wirfs and a few reports about them really liking Wills too. Both definitely have at least a decent potential to play LT. Though I am highest on Becton and Wills to dominate at that position .

In comment 14850674 LBH15 said:

Quote:

Although be careful with that whole Oline is more coachable aspect particularly when it comes to OL and LB. It may be that the only thing worse than Giants inability to find talented lineman and linebackers is their baffling inability to develop any whatsoever.

LOL - I do not disagree with you there - we are between rock and hard place. This discussion will not be answered for a while - but I think we agree on this - whoever it is we pick needs to hit - Either a Stud left tackle that makes the whole line better - OR a stud linebacker who makes the whole defense better - we argue on which player is most likely to do one of those things.

I hope the Giants have done their homework more than we have. I would love to protect our assets too but we also have to protect the scoreboard. I dont see this offense being designed to be the greatest show on turf or an Andy Reid offense but I do know our defense needs to be equipped to cover an Andy Reid offense. I think Simmons can do that and I think we can find an answer to make our offensive line respectable enough to put to do enough damage.

In comment 14850700 SteelGiant said:

Quote:

In comment 14850674 LBH15 said: Quote: Although be careful with that whole Oline is more coachable aspect particularly when it comes to OL and LB. It may be that the only thing worse than Giants inability to find talented lineman and linebackers is their baffling inability to develop any whatsoever. LOL - I do not disagree with you there - we are between rock and hard place. This discussion will not be answered for a while - but I think we agree on this - whoever it is we pick needs to hit - Either a Stud left tackle that makes the whole line better - OR a stud linebacker who makes the whole defense better - we argue on which player is most likely to do one of those things. I hope the Giants have done their homework more than we have. I would love to protect our assets too but we also have to protect the scoreboard. I dont see this offense being designed to be the greatest show on turf or an Andy Reid offense but I do know our defense needs to be equipped to cover an Andy Reid offense. I think Simmons can do that and I think we can find an answer to make our offensive line respectable enough to put to do enough damage.

That stud LB maybe Connely. That kid was really opening eyes and quickly before he went down. Then we added Blake who we paid enough dollars to to say they think he is a high level starter . Mayo was a capable rotation guy. Ximines and Carter a year older . No doubt coverage is still an issue but we may have a bunch of sub packages with less LBs and more DBs like most teams deploy nowadays anyways

I think your post kind of lays out the thinking as to going OT. The defense has been given a bunch of recent investments and then added some more this free agency. Not saying they are proving any rewards yet but my view is DG isn’t going to ignore tackle any further.

Agreed. especially with the majority of Draft projections having the Top 7 OT/OC gone before #36. I doubt he's going to leave his franchise QB's and RB's future in the hands of the 8th best OL in the Draft.

Especially when it's such a talented Top 10 group to choose from.

because their future value is not as great. They don't last as long at a high level. Or those that do never make it to free agency