I think it was when he poured a bit of water on the prevailing, "Look, the 9ers just made it to the Super Bowl by running the ball and stopping the run -- David Gettleman has been vindicated!" sentiments from a few weeks back.
if I'm not mistaken, and a bunch of people who resent him for constantly being right just lit into him.
His schtick was "I'm always right and if you disagree you're an idiot."
Sometimes he was right, but his stance on any given issue was always that the Giants were wrong, the Giants were idiots, and those that disagreed with him were idiots.
Taking a predictable stance on everything doesnt show the great intellect that some of you often attribute to him. He wasn't weighing evidence to come to conclusions, he was often twisting it to suit his preconceived notions, the same thing he accused the rest of us of doing.
he’s never done anything to get banned. Never swore at another poster. If he’s been run off because he has a contrarian opinion, than there is a big problem with the forum. Difference of opinions makes things interesting. I hope he returns, he’s been here a long time,
"Winning in the NFL is not about running the ball and stopping the run. Once you've controlled for injuries, it's about:
1. Making chunk plays on offense (for most teams this is throwing the ball; for Baltimore it's also running the ball with the quarterback)
2. Limiting chunk plays on defense (Belichick has understood this for years, focusing on limiting big plays and using red zone defense to turn TDs into FGs)
3. Turnovers
If I had to set a goal for the Giants in 2020 it's to get Jones's YPA up above 7.5. Along with turnovers that well correlate most to wins, IMO."
To which Joey in VA replied:
"Fucking bullshit. It's the FOUNDATION of winning football, if you can't do those two things you have no prayer of winning consistently, absofuckinglutely none, no matter what you're tired Grumpy Smurf asshole takes are you whiny self absorbed cunt faced fuck. Because Gettleman said it you don't believe it. Watching the 49ers? They have thrown it SIX FUCKING TIMES because the Packers CANNOT STOP THE RUN. IT's not hard, but self proclaimed geniuses like you who in fact don't know fuck all about this game and how it's played like to spout ill advised fucking bullshit that mean nothing. Football is a really easy game once you do the simple things right. No one gives a flying rat fuck what you say anymore you fucking no good crying waste of a heartbeat. Fuck you."
there’s a lot of guys that are right, and only a few that constantly remind you of it. I enjoy GoTerps, when he wakes up on the right side of the bed I’ve got no issue with him and have had many great conversations. But when he’s on a mission I’ve learned to just walk away.
He’s brought some of it on himself, so I can’t say I feel bad. No doubt people are assholes to him, they suck too.
it was sad how upset he got grown folks (over football!), just for having his own thoughts. Seems so silly now. Hope he comes back, I always enjoyed his posts.
it was sad how upset he got grown folks (over football!), just for having his own thoughts. Seems so silly now. Hope he comes back, I always enjoyed his posts.
You're right about that. Given the current state of things it seems silly some of the childish nonsense that has gone on, myself included.
but this isn't a mob mentality turning him away. It was his relentless approach to consistently repeat himself over and over and over and over and over on every thread. It grew tiresome. We get it. He doesn't like the Giants and how they are run. But bitching about it nonstop was worse and became unbearable. It is one thing to have a differing opinion and a completely other thing to harp on the negative in almost every post. I liked his different viewpoints. I didn't like the constant negativity.
RE: RE: yeah, he posted something unflattering about the LW trade
if I'm not mistaken, and a bunch of people who resent him for constantly being right just lit into him.
His schtick was "I'm always right and if you disagree you're an idiot."
It really wasn't. He wasn't abusive or even merely dismissive towards those who disagreed with him in an insulting way. I mean, it's not like he's FMIC.
There's a faction of people who simply seemed determined to take his observations personally. I'll never understand it.
And this will sound like piling on. I genuinely think Terps is a very knowledgeable poster and his outside the box thinking alot of times is refreshing. But he has gotten so overly negative to the point where is almost obsessive that I'm finding myself enjoying BBI much more without him. Every thread he involved himself in ended up devolving to the point where it became a Terps vs the world thread. It was tired and stale.
RE: RE: RE: yeah, he posted something unflattering about the LW trade
if I'm not mistaken, and a bunch of people who resent him for constantly being right just lit into him.
His schtick was "I'm always right and if you disagree you're an idiot."
It really wasn't. He wasn't abusive or even merely dismissive towards those who disagreed with him in an insulting way. I mean, it's not like he's FMIC.
There's a faction of people who simply seemed determined to take his observations personally. I'll never understand it.
It really was. If you didn't hate on every move you were blind optimist.
I wouldn't call it abusive, but I would call it arrogant dismissive condescension that lacked any self awareness.
He never understood that his reactions were as much based on emotion as those of the blind optimist.
It really was. If you didn't hate on every move you were blind optimist.
I wouldn't call it abusive, but I would call it arrogant dismissive condescension that lacked any self awareness.
He never understood that his reactions were as much based on emotion as those of the blind optimist.
I don't think I ever saw him introduce himself into a discussion by dismissing people as blind optimists in any kind of pejorative way. Typically, he'd make an argument against the Giants' way of doing something, someone would get uber-defensive about it, and he'd then say something along the lines of, "You can either be a blind optimist, or you can see the reality of what the Giants have been over the past 3 years."
I can see how you can squint and see self-aggrandizement and condescension there, but you'd have to ignore the fact that it was almost always in response to someone getting bent out of shape about his initial position.
but its his delivery that always seemed to draw concentrated ire. I don't think that's a coincidence or some sort of coordinated gang-up on person X mentality. He's just another faceless handle on here so obviously it was his posts.
his cheering squad seems unable or unwilling to see that fact because they agree.
I saw his frustration and anger had shrunk his field of vision and his willingness to consider opposing perspectives, but the reactions to him ranged to uncalled for to banworthy. That's elementary level. This forum needs to do better diffusing anger and vitriol.
his cheering squad seems unable or unwilling to see that fact because they agree.
I saw his frustration and anger had shrunk his field of vision and his willingness to consider opposing perspectives, but the reactions to him ranged to uncalled for to banworthy. That's elementary level. This forum needs to do better diffusing anger and vitriol.
+1
Civil discourse is needed more than ever my friends. Please think about that before you respond to things.
There is more than one formula to playing winning/champions football
for being a critical thinker on every decision a sports team makes over just rooting for the team and hoping the moves work.
I'll be perfectly honest, anyone can be critical and there was a time in my life where I'd scrutinize the moves made by the teams I follow. But I don't see the point anymore outside of something clearly egregious. My views on sports have shifted and I don't take them all that seriously.
Just my $0.02 but there's a lot disdain thrown towards those that are simply along for the ride and a ton of dick measuring when it comes to being right about the Giants sucking. Its odd and its tiresome.
If you have ever been in the policy making world.....
either government or corporate America, you quickly realize that you can not advance your position if you are constantly alienating others. Its a skill to understand when to stand firm and what your red lines are, where and when compromises are necessary and appropriate and simply how to charm people. For him, everything was scorched earth.
"Winning in the NFL is not about running the ball and stopping the run. Once you've controlled for injuries, it's about:
1. Making chunk plays on offense (for most teams this is throwing the ball; for Baltimore it's also running the ball with the quarterback)
2. Limiting chunk plays on defense (Belichick has understood this for years, focusing on limiting big plays and using red zone defense to turn TDs into FGs)
3. Turnovers
If I had to set a goal for the Giants in 2020 it's to get Jones's YPA up above 7.5. Along with turnovers that well correlate most to wins, IMO."
To which Joey in VA replied:
"Fucking bullshit. It's the FOUNDATION of winning football, if you can't do those two things you have no prayer of winning consistently, absofuckinglutely none, no matter what you're tired Grumpy Smurf asshole takes are you whiny self absorbed cunt faced fuck. Because Gettleman said it you don't believe it. Watching the 49ers? They have thrown it SIX FUCKING TIMES because the Packers CANNOT STOP THE RUN. IT's not hard, but self proclaimed geniuses like you who in fact don't know fuck all about this game and how it's played like to spout ill advised fucking bullshit that mean nothing. Football is a really easy game once you do the simple things right. No one gives a flying rat fuck what you say anymore you fucking no good crying waste of a heartbeat. Fuck you."
Where’s arc? I know some have asked about him recently but I haven’t seen an answer yet. Has anyone heard from him? He just disappeared. Which is unfortunate because he is a great poster.
for being a critical thinker on every decision a sports team makes over just rooting for the team and hoping the moves work.
I'll be perfectly honest, anyone can be critical and there was a time in my life where I'd scrutinize the moves made by the teams I follow. But I don't see the point anymore outside of something clearly egregious. My views on sports have shifted and I don't take them all that seriously.
Just my $0.02 but there's a lot disdain thrown towards those that are simply along for the ride and a ton of dick measuring when it comes to being right about the Giants sucking. Its odd and its tiresome.
I disagree, no one bothers the just along for the ride posters.
If they were just along for the ride they won’t be spouting strong opinions that could be proven wrong. People with bad opinions get criticized which is standard for a message board.
would go hard on the vicious personal attacks the way they do political threads/posts.
Joey's a great football poster, but he has frequent outbursts of unacceptable vitriol which undeniably make a mockery of the terms of use. And he's not alone.
that said, Go Terps has been in enough scrapes that I doubt he was driven off. Taking a break is more likely, unless (I hope not) he has more pressing life issues.
iirc on that thread Terps basically said he's not going to deal with posts like that anymore and that he's out of here.
He isn't wrong, that post was bullshit and uncalled for. Joey made some good points but it was all lost when he went personal. I don't blame Terps for leaving on that one.
Is one of the most knowledgeable posters on this board. Sometimes he came across as angry because he is a diehard Giant fan who is sick and tired of losing and he had strong opinions as to why. I hope he returns soon.
I don’t miss Terps constant negativity whenever someone tried
to post an optimistic opinion about anything Giants related. It’s as if he would not allow the optimism to gather any steam, and he must shit on that opinion before it made someone feel good about their favorite team.
Just a miserable guy.
RE: I don’t miss Terps constant negativity whenever someone tried
to post an optimistic opinion about anything Giants related. It’s as if he would not allow the optimism to gather any steam, and he must shit on that opinion before it made someone feel good about their favorite team.
Just a miserable guy.
What do you mean "optimism gather any steam."
Were his responses to you not based in fact or supporting evidence?
Is one of the most knowledgeable posters on this board. Sometimes he came across as angry because he is a diehard Giant fan who is sick and tired of losing and he had strong opinions as to why. I hope he returns soon.
+1
He's one of the most consistent posters here. Hope he's just taking a break.
Can you tell us something new or something we can do about the past?
The operative word in "dwelling on bad choices" is dwelling. Repetition of the fucking obvious is not insight or intelligence or interesting. Its bleating.
Cant generate balanced assessments about now and the future if one is dwelling.
So for me, imo, 3-13 is just an historic fact and doesnt have much meaning today or tomorrow any more than 2007 and 2011 has meaning for today or tomorrow.
We lived the past. If we dont start living the future we have volunteered to pay a tax we didnt earn. We are fans not victims
RE: RE: I don’t miss Terps constant negativity whenever someone tried
to post an optimistic opinion about anything Giants related. It’s as if he would not allow the optimism to gather any steam, and he must shit on that opinion before it made someone feel good about their favorite team.
Just a miserable guy.
What do you mean "optimism gather any steam."
Were his responses to you not based in fact or supporting evidence?
He would dismiss the posters optimism with his own negative opinions or “facts” that fit his own narrative. He always has to have the last word, because he was always right and you were always wrong. God forbid we say something positive about the Giants!!!
That’s really annoying to some people. Always rubbed me the wrong way. If I want to be optimistic about the team, aren’t I allowed? I try to find the positives in everything. I find I enjoy things more that way.
takes Terps every word as him being anti-Gettleman and thus they think he is trolling him and him being a prick or laying it on thick.
Others view him as outside the box thinking, and don't see what the Pro-DG crowd sees.
Thus why Britt is complaining and others like Ron Mexico don't see any of it as other then him being a fan and talking football.
Are you saying that Terps actually likes Gettleman? ;-)
I think it's more an issue of quantity. GoTerps thinks the Giants are a horribly run organization, which is a completely valid opinion. Repeating that same exact sentiment hundreds of times in a multitude of threads does get a bit tiring, even if you agree with him, unless you enjoy company in misery.
that add to the value of this board. But sometimes his disdain for anyone who disagrees gets tiresome. Same thing with Joey. That response posted above sounds like it came from a 12 year old who got his XBox taken away.
This board doesn't require strict manners and everybody has to learn to give and take some. But I don't think posters who really know stuff understand how that knowledge gets undermined by the ridiculous way they express themselves.
RE: RE: RE: I don’t miss Terps constant negativity whenever someone tried
He would dismiss the posters optimism with his own negative opinions or “facts” that fit his own narrative. He always has to have the last word, because he was always right and you were always wrong. God forbid we say something positive about the Giants!!!
That’s really annoying to some people. Always rubbed me the wrong way. If I want to be optimistic about the team, aren’t I allowed? I try to find the positives in everything. I find I enjoy things more that way.
You put facts in quotes, are you implying he stated his opinion as fact or that he's untruthful?
Were there occasions when you made fact-based arguments in a debate with him when he shouted you down or forced the last word?
That inform his arguments. Among them, he thinks Gettleman is terrible at his job, and therefore thinks the path towards improvement is to diminish Gettleman's influence. And he was actually pretty satisfied by recent measures that were aligned with that (Judge's hiring, for example).
However, he also seemed skeptical of ownership and their willingness to empower Judge at Gettleman's expense.
If you don't reply to these positions with the BBI equivalent of "LOL" or "Why do you hate America?" I don't think you'd have a contentious debate with him on these points.
I've been agreeing and disagreeing with Go Terps for nearly 20 years.
I was agreeing with him about Odell Beckham WAY before a lot of other people were on board. It's funny, the sentiment here right now is that a mob mentality ran him away? Shit, the mob mentality referred to here ain't got shit on the OBJ mob mentality that came after him when he was trashing Beckham for years before he was traded. If that didn't chase him away, surely this wouldn't.
He's a big boy. He chose to leave on his own and he'd be the first one to tell you that.
As Bill said, we are fans, not victims.
RE: RE: RE: I don’t miss Terps constant negativity whenever someone tried
That’s really annoying to some people. Always rubbed me the wrong way. If I want to be optimistic about the team, aren’t I allowed? I try to find the positives in everything. I find I enjoy things more that way.
I dunno, I can immediately think of one thing about which you're not really trying to find much positive.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I don’t miss Terps constant negativity whenever someone tried
He would dismiss the posters optimism with his own negative opinions or “facts” that fit his own narrative. He always has to have the last word, because he was always right and you were always wrong. God forbid we say something positive about the Giants!!!
That’s really annoying to some people. Always rubbed me the wrong way. If I want to be optimistic about the team, aren’t I allowed? I try to find the positives in everything. I find I enjoy things more that way.
You put facts in quotes, are you implying he stated his opinion as fact or that he's untruthful?
Were there occasions when you made fact-based arguments in a debate with him when he shouted you down or forced the last word?
I've absolutely never seen him do that.
Fine. It’s useless to discuss this further obviously. I’ve made my point. I’m not missing Terps. Good grief...
RE: RE: RE: RE: I don’t miss Terps constant negativity whenever someone tried
That’s really annoying to some people. Always rubbed me the wrong way. If I want to be optimistic about the team, aren’t I allowed? I try to find the positives in everything. I find I enjoy things more that way.
I dunno, I can immediately think of one thing about which you're not really trying to find much positive.
Haha, touché...
Terps wore me down. Couldn’t take it anymore.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I don’t miss Terps constant negativity whenever someone tried
That’s really annoying to some people. Always rubbed me the wrong way. If I want to be optimistic about the team, aren’t I allowed? I try to find the positives in everything. I find I enjoy things more that way.
I dunno, I can immediately think of one thing about which you're not really trying to find much positive.
Haha, touché...
Terps wore me down. Couldn’t take it anymore.
Funnily enough, that's how some feel about this team being garbage for nearly a decade.
If you are missing GoTerps viewpoints and opinions just
that the Giants are not a well run organization and want to overblow even the tiniest shred of evidence they might be doing something right
Some people think it's important to point out the difference between having the right processes vs. just having a chance to compete
There is plenty of evidence we don't have the right processes. And I fear a few even mediocre seasons (7-9, 9-7) could enable us to fall further and further behind
I think GoTerps was very much in the same boat and it's a shame how exhausting it is to just balance out the debate sometimes. The attacks that are leveled at people that frankly come to the table with a lot more tangible thought processes is astounding
It may have seemed like GoTerps was on his horse about something but frankly the amount of times something would get litigated then someone would come back a week later and act like the conclusions were different, it's really mind boggling to watch it exist
I guess that's par for the course of the world right now though
He was excoriated repeatedly. It really was as if his anti-OBJ position was tantamount to liking the terrorists. And after he was ultimately proven right, he'd very occasionally (and carefully) offer something along the lines of how he'd been saying it for years, but IMO showed fairly remarkable restraint against posting any "I told you so."
Some of the people who absolutely ridiculed him for any negative OBJ position have seemingly purged their former opinions about Beckham from history. Terps would never do that.
I know which of the two I prefer reading posts from.
Can you tell us something new or something we can do about the past?
The operative word in "dwelling on bad choices" is dwelling. Repetition of the fucking obvious is not insight or intelligence or interesting. Its bleating.
Cant generate balanced assessments about now and the future if one is dwelling.
So for me, imo, 3-13 is just an historic fact and doesnt have much meaning today or tomorrow any more than 2007 and 2011 has meaning for today or tomorrow.
We lived the past. If we dont start living the future we have volunteered to pay a tax we didnt earn. We are fans not victims
Wouldn’t it be foolish to ignore history? Particularly when is the same guys steering the ship?
Btw, the only ones still dwelling on the 2017 3-13 record are the pro DG crowd continuing to push blame on the last administration.
I’m pretty negative that the team will return to glory anytime soon but I don’t feel like a victim. I am however loosing interest, which is what Mara should be really afraid of.
He was excoriated repeatedly. It really was as if his anti-OBJ position was tantamount to liking the terrorists. And after he was ultimately proven right, he'd very occasionally (and carefully) offer something along the lines of how he'd been saying it for years, but IMO showed fairly remarkable restraint against posting any "I told you so."
Some of the people who absolutely ridiculed him for any negative OBJ position have seemingly purged their former opinions about Beckham from history. Terps would never do that.
I know which of the two I prefer reading posts from.
but stopped doing because it ends up going nowhere.
Even if you are convinced DG is a moron and the Maras are incompetent, what does stating it over and over actually do? I get being critical, but it’s an obsession for some people like if you say it enough everyone else will agree to and we can storm MetLife and demand answers.
but stopped doing because it ends up going nowhere.
Even if you are convinced DG is a moron and the Maras are incompetent, what does stating it over and over actually do? I get being critical, but it’s an obsession for some people like if you say it enough everyone else will agree to and we can storm MetLife and demand answers.
GoTerps literally posted this one time. That’s almost exactly what he said.
but stopped doing because it ends up going nowhere.
Even if you are convinced DG is a moron and the Maras are incompetent, what does stating it over and over actually do? I get being critical, but it’s an obsession for some people like if you say it enough everyone else will agree to and we can storm MetLife and demand answers.
but stopped doing because it ends up going nowhere.
Even if you are convinced DG is a moron and the Maras are incompetent, what does stating it over and over actually do? I get being critical, but it’s an obsession for some people like if you say it enough everyone else will agree to and we can storm MetLife and demand answers.
There have been several posters who said they continued to post it so that the team would take notice and take action. Terps was one of them. He said he would continue to say how shitty the team was being run because he knew people associated with the organization read BBI.
The guys railing about analytics said the same thing.
I chuckle at the image of Mara reading BBI and thinking that the poster who wants everyone on a rookie contract and would keep a stable of mobile QB's on the roster is the voice of reason that shows he should change his ways.
Terps has the misfortune of being consistently right about outcomes that led to failure by the team.
That's probably frustrating for those who debated him, because being wrong meant 1) being wrong 2) the team sucked.
In my interactions with him he's always been respectful, on-topic, and thorough. That's pretty uncommon here. That's a strong plus in his favor.
There are as many members of this site who take repeated stances: 1) the past doesn't matter 2) there's nothing you can do as a fan 3) the Giants are going to shock everyone 4) the Giants are going to be awesome
How any of those views are anymore interesting than a candid assessment of the team is beyond me.
It’s about coaching and players. Offensive Chunk plays important? Absolutely. Guess how those chunk plays come about? By running the football. By throwing the football. How do you do those things? With players and good coaching. How do we get there? Hopefully we are one step closer. We’ve been bad for so long that we’re all ready to rip each other’s heads off every day around here and this one knows more and that one knows more. Bullshit. Some people are fucking dense or too young and haven’t learned everything yet but most of us are the same. Some are just better at arguing or verbiage.
We’ve been poorly led the last few years and the talent was decimated after 2011. We’ve slowly built up a war chest of younger talent and cap room. Now the coaching needs to finish the job and we need another good draft in 2020.
Pray judge is the goods. If he is, we’re set. If he isn’t, none of these debates will matter fuck all.
There have been several posters who said they continued to post it so that the team would take notice and take action. Terps was one of them. He said he would continue to say how shitty the team was being run because he knew people associated with the organization read BBI.
The guys railing about analytics said the same thing.
At the end-of-season press conference and interview rounds, did you not get the sense Gettleman was in close consult with Pat Hanlon on the pulse of the fans and media?
Do you think the Giants as a multi-billion dollar entertainment franchise aren't closely monitoring customer sentiment, customer satisfaction and the tie in to lower attendance, revenue etc.?
That's kind of business 101 these days. Mara's probably not kicking back opening the mock draft threads, but the Giants most certainly track sentiment, and BBI is definitely high enough traffic to enter the monitoring spectrum.
RE: RE: RE: It begs the question I used to ask a lot
There have been several posters who said they continued to post it so that the team would take notice and take action. Terps was one of them. He said he would continue to say how shitty the team was being run because he knew people associated with the organization read BBI.
The guys railing about analytics said the same thing.
At the end-of-season press conference and interview rounds, did you not get the sense Gettleman was in close consult with Pat Hanlon on the pulse of the fans and media?
Do you think the Giants as a multi-billion dollar entertainment franchise aren't closely monitoring customer sentiment, customer satisfaction and the tie in to lower attendance, revenue etc.?
That's kind of business 101 these days. Mara's probably not kicking back opening the mock draft threads, but the Giants most certainly track sentiment, and BBI is definitely high enough traffic to enter the monitoring spectrum.
If I worked in PR for the giants I’d be all over the interwebz. If Hanlon or his lackeys weren’t doing so that would irresponsible or neglectful, in my view.
He’s a great poster and fellow giants fan. He got repetitive and contradictory at times but he shouldn’t let online bickering run him off. I don’t think he did, I think he just needed a break.
That said, many of us go too far sometimes. I preach too much and then drop out of threads which is dooshy in its own right. Nothing personal, it’s just my way of venting. This place should be cathartic and fun for everyone. If it stops being so, it’s time to go.
We need to fucking win again. Giants fans are my favorite people on earth. There’s a kinship. We’re just in a sorry state. It will get better. I firmly believe that. Once we win again we can all sing koombaya.
RE: RE: RE: It begs the question I used to ask a lot
There have been several posters who said they continued to post it so that the team would take notice and take action. Terps was one of them. He said he would continue to say how shitty the team was being run because he knew people associated with the organization read BBI.
The guys railing about analytics said the same thing.
At the end-of-season press conference and interview rounds, did you not get the sense Gettleman was in close consult with Pat Hanlon on the pulse of the fans and media?
Do you think the Giants as a multi-billion dollar entertainment franchise aren't closely monitoring customer sentiment, customer satisfaction and the tie in to lower attendance, revenue etc.?
That's kind of business 101 these days. Mara's probably not kicking back opening the mock draft threads, but the Giants most certainly track sentiment, and BBI is definitely high enough traffic to enter the monitoring spectrum.
I'm not saying that the Giants don't monitor BBI. We know they do. I know that first hand.
But it is pretty arrogant or ignorant to think that posting a negative opinion over and over again will result in tangible change. Especially with some of the non-sensical theories floated out there like trading away players coming up for a 2nd contract to have as much of the roster as possible on their rookie contracts, or having a stable of interchangeable QB's so you never have to pay one handsomely.
Then again - there are supposedly paid shills here too....
but stopped doing because it ends up going nowhere.
Even if you are convinced DG is a moron and the Maras are incompetent, what does stating it over and over actually do? I get being critical, but it’s an obsession for some people like if you say it enough everyone else will agree to and we can storm MetLife and demand answers.
I do agree that being overly repetitive In any capacity is pretty annoying.
Terps is pretty monotone so I can understand how it gets under some people’s skin.
RE: If you are missing GoTerps viewpoints and opinions just
He quotes Mike Lombardi a lot not Matt Lombardo. Mike Lombardi has an axe to grind and is very biased in his opinions. Everything has to be the Patriots way but one argument I had with Terps over the years is doing things the Pat's way doesn't work. How many have tried and failed? The reason is that it needs to be built up. You have to establish a culture. Then you need to start producing wins. Then you can get players for bargain deals and then it flows. Belichick has a philosophy that he runs his teams by. That and him cannot be replicated. Lombardi also likes to say one thing and then contradict himself later. If a team is winning he points to things that are similar to the Pats. When things don't work he says other things. It is easy to say after the fact. He has beaten the drum for years that the Giants need to hire someone from the Pats to change the way we do things. We do that and then he criticizes us again and I think it had to do with us not hiring his son or some shit. Long story short, listening to one person's views is never enough.
when it's impossible to separate what he does from the work that Ernie Adams, Kraft, the software development team and people like Sean Harrington do. If anything that's what makes it so hard to duplicate, how thorough the organization is top to bottom.
I think Belichick deserves the most credit but it can't be really underestimated how much something like Brady taking 15-20M under market can help a team in a hard capped league. Kraft has just as much to do with that as Belichick IMO.
"Fucking bullshit. It's the FOUNDATION of winning football, if you can't do those two things you have no prayer of winning consistently, absofuckinglutely none, no matter what you're [SIC] tired Grumpy Smurf asshole takes are you whiny self absorbed cunt faced fuck. Because Gettleman said it you don't believe it. Watching the 49ers? They have thrown it SIX FUCKING TIMES because the Packers CANNOT STOP THE RUN. IT's not hard, but self proclaimed geniuses like you who in fact don't know fuck all about this game and how it's played like to spout ill advised fucking bullshit that mean nothing. Football is a really easy game once you do the simple things right. No one gives a flying rat fuck what you say anymore you fucking no good crying waste of a heartbeat. Fuck you.
This is a grown man. We've seen this sort of starkly humiliating posting style from him before (Exhibit A, one of many). And we all (regrettably) know people like this in our lives. Pissy & vituperative. They lash out. Fake "tough guys." And we know that inside they're the most flailingly insecure people among us.
Terps don't let a massive loser like Joey dissuade you from posting here. And I hope you laughed at him when you read that catastrophe, as so many do behind his back day in & day out of his frivolous, sad sack life.
RE: RE: RE: RE: It begs the question I used to ask a lot
But it is pretty arrogant or ignorant to think that posting a negative opinion over and over again will result in tangible change. Especially with some of the non-sensical theories floated out there like trading away players coming up for a 2nd contract to have as much of the roster as possible on their rookie contracts, or having a stable of interchangeable QB's so you never have to pay one handsomely.
If I remember correctly, the thought he expressed was around posting negative opinions being heard, not his views on roster construction.
I don’t remember any time he thought the Giants were listening for his takes on how.
But back to the team gauging fan sentiment. You don’t believe in part that temp is checked to at least indirectly guide change? Wasn’t it widely reported a tipping point for Mara and benching Manning the empty seats?
RE: RE: RE: RE: It begs the question I used to ask a lot
There have been several posters who said they continued to post it so that the team would take notice and take action. Terps was one of them. He said he would continue to say how shitty the team was being run because he knew people associated with the organization read BBI.
The guys railing about analytics said the same thing.
At the end-of-season press conference and interview rounds, did you not get the sense Gettleman was in close consult with Pat Hanlon on the pulse of the fans and media?
Do you think the Giants as a multi-billion dollar entertainment franchise aren't closely monitoring customer sentiment, customer satisfaction and the tie in to lower attendance, revenue etc.?
That's kind of business 101 these days. Mara's probably not kicking back opening the mock draft threads, but the Giants most certainly track sentiment, and BBI is definitely high enough traffic to enter the monitoring spectrum.
I'm not saying that the Giants don't monitor BBI. We know they do. I know that first hand.
But it is pretty arrogant or ignorant to think that posting a negative opinion over and over again will result in tangible change. Especially with some of the non-sensical theories floated out there like trading away players coming up for a 2nd contract to have as much of the roster as possible on their rookie contracts, or having a stable of interchangeable QB's so you never have to pay one handsomely.
Then again - there are supposedly paid shills here too....
It's akin to someone not wanting to post a draft prospect they like so that they won't tip off other teams.
That is a very rational take. For me, it has not just been the record, it was also mostly unwatchable football.
Leaving if it does not please you or add to your life is smart and husbands emotional fuel for more important things.
Ive been watching the Yankees and Giants for a long time. Even in their worst years I did not miss a Giants game if it was on TV and followed on radio those times the season was so bad they stopped televising end of season Giants games. But I missed a few games the two years prior to this because there was no there there. I did not confuse those years with the next year
Yankees, if I was in NYC, I missed games in the 80's and early nineties. I did not let my thoughts about tough times analyze what was happening now( pro and con)
Never stopped being the teams I rooted for. But its a tough slog when the product sucks.
That's not the same thing as weighing the current possible things that may work, things that are changing and mostly things we do not know yet
That's why attaching optimism or pessimism seems so odd to me. We have no idea if Jones is a coach killer or a 15 year top 10 QB. If Barkley is 2000 yards of offense per year or a guy with spectacular runs who isn't worth the second contract. We don't know if like many GMS. DG makes many mistakes but gets DJ/SB and Dexter Lawrence right. We don't know if he is a big part of Judges selection and success or mediocrity. Or he could be an absolutely awful GM that wrecks the next 6 years. All are possible outcomes. We don't know.
We don't know if he was told to extend Eli. We probably wont ever know.
So is optimism rational in the face of not knowing? Don Quixote thought so. IS passionate pessimism in the face of no knowing realistic or just the preferred way some one thinks (feels).
Lot of folks torturing the partial data into confessing their feelings are right and getting offended if anyone disagrees.
That said, I wouldn't root for a team I despise and who irritates me. and a lot of guys seem to. lot of guys root for a team they don't know either.
Lets leave it as this in regard to how some folks mirror things that happen in life.
If you are having a tough time financially, at work, health wise and the wife keep buying and buying because she believes in a golden future...that's annoying to put it mildly.
But if your wife let no chance go by to tell you the car sucks, the house sucks, your job sucks, your past decisions suck and your beliefs suck...we all say maybe its time to tell her to STFU.
We understand both cases and how grating they can be. But we don't see ourselves playing those same roles out on BBI
I’m not ready to hand out props though. It’s really really easy to predict that a losing team is going to keep making bad decisions and continue losing. Just look at threads about other perennial losers. If I was a Mets fan I can bitch all day about Brody Van Wagenen but what’s the point?
It takes patients and thick skin to beat that drum and that’s what I give him credit for. Everything else? Meh, not really.
Eternal pessimists get the best of both worlds anyway, They gloat when they are right and they win when when they are wrong “whoops my bad but whatever, Giants won!”
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It begs the question I used to ask a lot
There have been several posters who said they continued to post it so that the team would take notice and take action. Terps was one of them. He said he would continue to say how shitty the team was being run because he knew people associated with the organization read BBI.
The guys railing about analytics said the same thing.
At the end-of-season press conference and interview rounds, did you not get the sense Gettleman was in close consult with Pat Hanlon on the pulse of the fans and media?
Do you think the Giants as a multi-billion dollar entertainment franchise aren't closely monitoring customer sentiment, customer satisfaction and the tie in to lower attendance, revenue etc.?
That's kind of business 101 these days. Mara's probably not kicking back opening the mock draft threads, but the Giants most certainly track sentiment, and BBI is definitely high enough traffic to enter the monitoring spectrum.
I'm not saying that the Giants don't monitor BBI. We know they do. I know that first hand.
But it is pretty arrogant or ignorant to think that posting a negative opinion over and over again will result in tangible change. Especially with some of the non-sensical theories floated out there like trading away players coming up for a 2nd contract to have as much of the roster as possible on their rookie contracts, or having a stable of interchangeable QB's so you never have to pay one handsomely.
Then again - there are supposedly paid shills here too....
It's akin to someone not wanting to post a draft prospect they like so that they won't tip off other teams.
Hee Hee. The vast majority here will not get that reference.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It begs the question I used to ask a lot
There have been several posters who said they continued to post it so that the team would take notice and take action. Terps was one of them. He said he would continue to say how shitty the team was being run because he knew people associated with the organization read BBI.
The guys railing about analytics said the same thing.
At the end-of-season press conference and interview rounds, did you not get the sense Gettleman was in close consult with Pat Hanlon on the pulse of the fans and media?
Do you think the Giants as a multi-billion dollar entertainment franchise aren't closely monitoring customer sentiment, customer satisfaction and the tie in to lower attendance, revenue etc.?
That's kind of business 101 these days. Mara's probably not kicking back opening the mock draft threads, but the Giants most certainly track sentiment, and BBI is definitely high enough traffic to enter the monitoring spectrum.
I'm not saying that the Giants don't monitor BBI. We know they do. I know that first hand.
But it is pretty arrogant or ignorant to think that posting a negative opinion over and over again will result in tangible change. Especially with some of the non-sensical theories floated out there like trading away players coming up for a 2nd contract to have as much of the roster as possible on their rookie contracts, or having a stable of interchangeable QB's so you never have to pay one handsomely.
Then again - there are supposedly paid shills here too....
It's akin to someone not wanting to post a draft prospect they like so that they won't tip off other teams.
Hee Hee. The vast majority here will not get that reference.
another good example of the mob "winning" and exhausting a really good poster.
Well that is one interpretation. I think others would agree that he had become a self-righteous insufferable bore.
This is most correct. He was over the top. In his mind, His opinion was correct and any alternatives were wrong. His GM search plan was absolutely ludicrous. Like any team has time to form a committee to find a GM and then be ready to hire a HC and then be ready for FA and the draft. It was like he did not see that the good GMs and HCs were gone by mid-January.
Any way, hope he comes back.
He was always a good poster. But after DG was hired he went ballistic.
I’m not ready to hand out props though. It’s really really easy to predict that a losing team is going to keep making bad decisions and continue losing. Just look at threads about other perennial losers. If I was a Mets fan I can bitch all day about Brody Van Wagenen but what’s the point?
It takes patients and thick skin to beat that drum and that’s what I give him credit for. Everything else? Meh, not really.
Eternal pessimists get the best of both worlds anyway, They gloat when they are right and they win when when they are wrong “whoops my bad but whatever, Giants won!”
I observe posters like Go Terps making specific criticisms of specific actions by the team. The team has been horrible so, sure there have been many.
I don’t put him in the group that makes blanket, unsubstantiated claims. His posts are cogent.
I don’t believe there is any more inherent value in being an optimistic fan. Part of the fun of fandom is the highs and lows. Complaining about the team is the rite of the loser.
What’s terribly boring to me are debates that start evidence based then devolve into “we’ll just see,” “why not us?” “It’s better to have hope than not.” Those are mind numbing responses to me.
I’m not trying to get at with you with that comment btw, or your optimism. You’re one of my favorite posters and you’re consistently, and genuine in my view.
I hear you. And I think we both hit on it, the 2 extremes are just that and they annoy people. I’m definitely a glass half full kind of guy when it comes to sports (wasn’t always like that) I guess I just wish there was more give and take on this site. Too many posters are really dug in on their opinions and when that happens threads fail.
So this is all my fault for finally snapping like so many of you I'm sure want to for his endless tirades instead of actual discussion? He's a big boy, I'm sure he's just annoyed by the team and its failure and if me flying off the handle did it, then I apologize sincerely. I don't like him, I never have and never will, he's a miserable jerk just like me.
So to Terps and BBI at large, I am sorry. I lose my mind, it happens and I constantly work on it but I'm not doing a good job of it lately, I freely admit it. I'll take a break from posting for a while, it seems like just punishment for the apparent furor I caused. For the record, I don't think it's me, solely because GoTerps is in my opinion, too strong minded to be driven off. If he's backing away it's way more than one grotesque post from me. I'm not absolving myself, it was way over the top, but I don't think anyone on here wields any power over that man. Adios for a while friends.
Bill -- I've officially turned the corner from pessimistic to cautiously pessimistic this offseason. It's progress.
An exchange we had forced me to take account whether I was genuinely displeased with some moves or whether I was just displeased with Gettleman. It was the latter. I'm open to liking him (I think).
1) I don't think he makes the top 3 and maybe the top five swing factors in performance that most determine our success going forward
2) In a measured fact based organization ( that is when the majority of the time, the influencers and input if not the decisions are made by fact based people) I think impulsivity and "going for it now " is reduced.
Biggest thing I saw in this years FA. We may not agree with one pick or all. The structures of the deals signaled a ton.
Now will this fan base sit still for a measured approach after years of fly by seat of the pants? I don't know.
But even if DJ or Judge fails, fixing the team is now much more doable and quicker than the constrained positions we found ourselves in recently
1 point on the martyrdom of being "right" about how bad an org is
31 of 32 team's fans who rant about their teams being incompetent are proven correct every year. And before you say "that's an exaggeration", I agree, some teams succeed even if they don't win a SB. Just don't tell a Bills fan that in the 90's, or a Seahawk fan that after the Butler INT, or a Falcons fan after Pats comeback, or a Pats fan after the helmet catch, etc. There is always a way to call out incompetence unless there's a parade.
Point being if your default position is negativity you are going to increase your odds of being right a lot more.
As it relates to GT, I've had a bunch of conversations with him over the past year and there were probably just as many individual things we agreed on as disagreed. JMO but where things go off the rails is when everything comes back to relentlessly believing the organization has no clue what they are doing. Barkley's a great player but they shouldn't have picked a RB. Jones showed promise but the new coach should get to pick a new QB if he wants. A lot of salary cap room but spending money on FA is losing strategy, and that just shows how poor the roster is. Everything about this team is fruit from the poisonous tree of org incompetence. There's some truth to that because the Mara's have made some bad decisions, especially recently with the last 2 coaching hires, but they are also far from the worst ownerships in sports. If the Maras are incompetent what are the Wilponzis? Or Dolan?
He’s distracted by things outside this board and it doesn’t have anything to do with some perceived drama? Maybe a new job. Maybe he decided to cut back on his internet screen time.Could be something as trivial as a new hobby. I’d venture to guess that it’s something like that before I pointed to anything that happened on here.
But if your wife let no chance go by to tell you the car sucks, the house sucks, your job sucks, your past decisions suck and your beliefs suck...we all say maybe its time to tell her to STFU.
That's an apt metaphor, but I think it illustrates a different level of how personally invested some fans can be.
If someone insults the Giants, I don't feel as though my decision to root for them has been attacked as I would in the examples you provided. But perhaps some people do.
Bill, I whole heartedly agree with your above post. For lack of a sophisticated way to express it, his management style annoys me.
When taking a step back and realizing he's a single character in a play that's hopefully progressing from Cats to Tartuffe soon, I can muster more positivity.
When taking a step back and realizing he's a single character in a play that's hopefully progressing from Cats to Tartuffe soon, I can muster more positivity.
there's no doubt he's been overwhelmingly negative in his takes, but the takes are always thought out and articulated well.
Awful ownership/managment/coaching and results for the better part of a decade SHOULD drive fans to a pretty negative and skeptical stance.
I'd rather read those posts any day of the week than 150 words of derpity-derp-derp deference to every single move the FO makes. (...which is not to say that anybody with anything positive to say is in that camp, but I personally find one a hell of a lot more grating than the other)
on football threads these days. I lost interest in "predict the future" threads a long time ago. I just watch the games and hope for the best. Was the Daniel Jones pick a good one? Can they win with Gettleman as the GM? I don't have much interest in debating those things because the correct answers will reveal themselves in time.
on football threads these days. I lost interest in "predict the future" threads a long time ago. I just watch the games and hope for the best. Was the Daniel Jones pick a good one? Can they win with Gettleman as the GM? I don't have much interest in debating those things because the correct answers will reveal themselves in time.
i really think this what it comes down to. I like the discussions and debates but DG was always going to be defined by these next few years more than 2018-2019. The giants were never winning big those years anyway and anyone with half a brain knew so. We were hopeful for a run with Eli at the end, but they simply didnt have enough great talent to sustain anything worthwhile. Maybe they could have stolen 9-10 games in those years, but that was their ceiling. this was always a long game approach no matter what horse crap lip service we were fed from Mara, DG or anyone else.
So here we are, year 3 of the rebuild. New staff. Second year QB. DG can walk into the sunset a hero here if the Giants start to win again and 9 and no one will give a fuck about Solder, Omamahe, Stewart or 9 total wins over 2 seasons. None of that will matter if 2020 mimics 2005.
but stopped doing because it ends up going nowhere.
Even if you are convinced DG is a moron and the Maras are incompetent, what does stating it over and over actually do? I get being critical, but it’s an obsession for some people like if you say it enough everyone else will agree to and we can storm MetLife and demand answers.
There have been several posters who said they continued to post it so that the team would take notice and take action. Terps was one of them. He said he would continue to say how shitty the team was being run because he knew people associated with the organization read BBI.
The guys railing about analytics said the same thing.
I chuckle at the image of Mara reading BBI and thinking that the poster who wants everyone on a rookie contract and would keep a stable of mobile QB's on the roster is the voice of reason that shows he should change his ways.
But that's what the reality is...
As someone that worked for the organization, they absolutely read BBI. Front office people 100% do.
but to what extent? And even if they read every single word it isn't comparable to hearing boos and firing chants during games which are much much worse.
I said that I have first-hand knowledge that people inside the organization read BBI. I've been contacted regarding posts I've made in the past.
What I don't think happens is that posts are used to drive moves or behavior. Or that there are paid shills on here.
So complaining over and over again with the goal of changing things is pretty futile. That's different from noticing, and I still have that funny image of Mara reading BBI.
To how fans can influence change by expressing their dissatisfaction, but let's not act like Go Terps' motivation was, first and foremost, to try and steer the ship through complaining.
I said that I have first-hand knowledge that people inside the organization read BBI. I've been contacted regarding posts I've made in the past.
What I don't think happens is that posts are used to drive moves or behavior. Or that there are paid shills on here.
So complaining over and over again with the goal of changing things is pretty futile. That's different from noticing, and I still have that funny image of Mara reading BBI.
Smart businesses in modern times would be using feedback from BBI to gauge customer sentiment, just like you can use Twitter to gauge customer/fan sentiment. This board is better gauge then any social media platform because it is full of the NY Giants core demographics.
It’s not going to drive everything, such as the draft picks or player personnel decisions (though professional teams use gauges how much money a team will make by signing big FA players ie Phillies signing Harper was money driven data analysis), but they certainly factor fan sentiment into some of the decision making that they do.
I believe many in the organization are very smart. I've made sure to compliment what are clear skills in personnel evaluation in DG while pointing out that it isn't enough when you are up against even less intelligent people with better information and tools.
What some people miss time and time again is that you can be very smart and terrible at innovation. Two very different things.
The Giants still don't have any person with a math and computer science background with anything resembling a senior title in the organization which is an ongoing problem. That was the problem with calling people "computer guys" diminutive and still reflects a poor understanding the type of culture you need to attract high quality creative technologists.
The Giants aren't using customer sentiment to make micro football decisions. No one thinks that.
But let's at least get back to the primary criticism; is posting your genuine feelings on the team heard?
The answer to that is an emphatic yes -- whether the Giants are operating in this century with a sophisticated social and customer sentiment monitoring service or tool, or if management/ownership is just reading the sports media.
The beat writers are a great example of this -- they all read BBI. They all lift from BBI.
Terps is 100% right, when you express your displeasure with the team in some small part that gets in front of management and ownership.
The Giants still don't have any person with a math and computer science background with anything resembling a senior title in the organization which is an ongoing problem. That was the problem with calling people "computer guys" diminutive and still reflects a poor understanding the type of culture you need to attract high quality creative technologists.
Jon Berger - Senior Director of Football Information
Jon Berger, who has been associated with the Giants for 38 years, is in his 13th season as the team's Senior Director of Football Information. Berger develops research reports for coaches, player personnel and management based on the analysis of statistical and tactical trends, and frequently makes presentation to players regarding strategy, game situations and rules interpretations. He works particularly closely with head coach Pat Shurmur and several members of the coaching staff.
Jon Berger, who has been associated with the Giants for 38 years, is in his 13th season as the team's Senior Director of Football Information. Berger develops research reports for coaches, player personnel and management based on the analysis of statistical and tactical trends, and frequently makes presentation to players regarding strategy, game situations and rules interpretations. He works particularly closely with head coach Pat Shurmur and several members of the coaching staff.
Prior to assuming his current position, Berger spent 21 years as the Giants' Director of Information Technology. In that position, he was responsible for maintaining the data network to assisting the coaching staff in analyzing tendencies and trends of both the Giants and their opponents.
Berger was first affiliated with the Giants organization in 1981, when he worked in the team's preseason training camp as an on-the-field assistant and later as an intern in the media services department.
After graduating from Stuyvesant High School, the Queens native attended the University at Albany, where he majored in computer science and mathematics, earning a B.S. degree and graduating Cum Laude with Dean's List honors in 1985. He was also a member of the Purple & Gold honor and service society. As an undergraduate Berger served as a computer science teaching assistant. After graduation, he remained at the University at Albany for another year as the computer coordinator for the physical education department, producing programs for all of the men's and women's intercollegiate teams.
and just a part of what is at work in the best predictive software systems these days.
And the point is that you wouldn't call someone you respected as a senior member of your organization a "computer guy" that's like calling a scout a "stopwatch guy"
but doing something doesn't necessarily mean they are innovating or fostering innovation. They have a lot of catching up to do to build out the kind of data set a team like the Pats have.
Them working now doesn't mean they aren't shamefully late to the party. They deserve every bit of the hard time they've gotten from me and others
RE: Good, i'm glad they are finally doing something
but doing something doesn't necessarily mean they are innovating or fostering innovation. They have a lot of catching up to do to build out the kind of data set a team like the Pats have.
Them working now doesn't mean they aren't shamefully late to the party. They deserve every bit of the hard time they've gotten from me and others
That's bullshit.
Quote:
Them working now doesn't mean they aren't shamefully late to the party. They deserve every bit of the hard time they've gotten from me and others
Because you are operating from a base opinion that you KNOW what they have been doing, when it has been painfully obvious you don't. If you start the argument at the premise the Giants haven't done anything, then any move they make is going to be viewed as being late to the party.
And as pointed out above, you don't even have a clue of the qualifications of the very people you disparage.
You've been a fish out of water in your knowledge of
this field from day 1. People like you contributed to them taking a long time to make any kind of real progress.
Congratulations
A fish out of water??
You will hate to hear this - but the Giants are in the middle of the pack in terms of their analytics, while you've claimed they are at the bottom or even the bottom.
There are still several teams that don't even have a Director of analytics.
What has become obvious over the months is that you guys beating the analytics drum were woefully off the mark in proclaiming that Gettleman was doing nothing and thet he'd likely continue to do nothing because he "shuns" it.
they are being disparaged for their performance and nothing else. The rest is just context supporting those points. They deserve that.
Your aren't even being clear in what you're supposedly clear about. Your last post about them being behind and "late to the party" is specifically targeted to their use of analytics, not their performance or record.
But this is par for the course. You aren't even able to communicate what you are clear on.
RE: You've been a fish out of water in your knowledge of
this field from day 1. People like you contributed to them taking a long time to make any kind of real progress.
Congratulations
It's silly to believe fans here on either side of the argument contributed to anything the Giants have or haven't done with regard to this subject. Neither you nor Fatman have influenced it.
RE: You've been a fish out of water in your knowledge of
timeouts in game. Holding onto 3 timeouts against the Saints at the end of the half TWO years ago. No folly in pointing that out.
No folly in pointing out allocating steep assets to an RB position especially when your team isn't ready to compete is not a smart thing to do.
My point was never that they were at the bottom. But the fact that they were in New York and not leveraging that to be on the cutting edge was negligent.
You can twist it however you like, that's what you love to do. But the fact is I really know advanced predictive systems, and you really don't. And I have no more time for this.
Smart businesses in modern times would be using feedback from BBI to gauge customer sentiment, just like you can use Twitter to gauge customer/fan sentiment. This board is better gauge then any social media platform because it is full of the NY Giants core demographics.
It’s not going to drive everything, such as the draft picks or player personnel decisions (though professional teams use gauges how much money a team will make by signing big FA players ie Phillies signing Harper was money driven data analysis), but they certainly factor fan sentiment into some of the decision making that they do.
The difference is that at the end of the day, just about anyone who spends their time posting on BBI is as loyal as fans get. The fans here are not at risk of rooting for another football team or picking up golf on Sundays instead. They're not going anywhere so the sentiment matters less than customer sentiment for an airline or a brand on Twitter where there are other very plausible options.
There are mostly assumptions that drive the analysis. Slight differences creates huge variability in outcomes.
I know we don’t lag, but we have some different assumptions that may or may not be applicable in the long term.
Having someone like Ty Siam is a slam dunk. He’s very good.
For those complaining about the Giants being behind the times, you should pay close attention to what Kicker says on the subject. If you've followed his posts on the Covid-19 thread, you'll see that he's quite qualified to opine on this subject.
RE: Recall I started this because the Giants didn't know how to use
timeouts in game. Holding onto 3 timeouts against the Saints at the end of the half TWO years ago. No folly in pointing that out.
Shanahan did the exact same thing in the Super Bowl. In fact it likely cost them the game. Are you blaming their lack of analytics experts? Of course not. Because it wasn’t the Giants.
The 49ers are roundly applauded for their analytics and still made the same in game decision as the Giants. Analytics are a tool. They aren’t the final decision maker. That’s on the coach.
So essentially, you have no freakin clue on how analytics played a role or didn’t play a role in not calling timeouts against the Saints. None.
Some people stare facts in the face and pretend they don't exist
Sometimes the best education anyone can get is just losing
I truly hope you've enjoyed being the guy on the titanic telling everyone that it would never sink. How could it, people at the top of their field built it, it was unsinkable.
For the record, my argument has always been that this front office could possibly win but they are severely limiting their upside by not embracing technological advancements. People are here on the record as saying they are working night and day to overhaul their practices now. I told you this in the middle of our arguments that I speak in shades and hedge my positions well.
Even if they win this year seems like it will be the result of finally taking the steps that myself and others were advocating.
I'm happy I was an advocate for progress as opposed to suggesting it was ridiculous to assume anything but the Giants were on top of innovation.
know him in the real world. I wouldn't suggest that he doesn't know what he's saying.
I would respectfully disagree with him that Siam is the right kind of hire to lead an advanced analytics effort. And he's been with the team for 4 years and 5 months. The results on the field would absolutely support that, it's been one of our worst runs of football in franchise history. If he was providing say the front office with top flight information and we had these results it would imply that the people running the show were of below average intelligence. So what in people's estimation is the issue? Great information bad people? Great people and bad information? Or what?
RE: RE: Recall I started this because the Giants didn't know how to use
timeouts in game. Holding onto 3 timeouts against the Saints at the end of the half TWO years ago. No folly in pointing that out.
Shanahan did the exact same thing in the Super Bowl. In fact it likely cost them the game. Are you blaming their lack of analytics experts? Of course not. Because it wasn’t the Giants.
The 49ers are roundly applauded for their analytics and still made the same in game decision as the Giants. Analytics are a tool. They aren’t the final decision maker. That’s on the coach.
So essentially, you have no freakin clue on how analytics played a role or didn’t play a role in not calling timeouts against the Saints. None.
He reminds me of my teen aged son who sometimes after he learns something about a topic proceeds to act like an expert on the topic and will dig in hard when arguing someone else is wrong about something related to the topic. Usually it ends with him sheepishly apologizing when something he didn't consider was pointed out to him. He is sharp and will soon learn to not react prematurely because it's all part of the maturing process teens must go through. Right now he just gets a little to enthused about something he has learned that he finds interesting. NoGain reminds me of that, just harmless enthusiasm from a fan on a topic he finds interesting.
know him in the real world. I wouldn't suggest that he doesn't know what he's saying.
I would respectfully disagree with him that Siam is the right kind of hire to lead an advanced analytics effort. And he's been with the team for 4 years and 5 months. The results on the field would absolutely support that, it's been one of our worst runs of football in franchise history. If he was providing say the front office with top flight information and we had these results it would imply that the people running the show were of below average intelligence. So what in people's estimation is the issue? Great information bad people? Great people and bad information? Or what?
Maybe there's context missing here but I'm having trouble figuring out what you're upset about then. The Giants have stunk for some time now. No one here would argue that point. They have made stupid decisions and again no one would argue that point. Even Gettleman said that they're reorganizing the staff to put a larger emphasis on data and technology. So culturally they're at least committing publicly to putting more value on that side of things. And by the way it has had an effect in some areas already even if it hasn't translated to the win column. See linked tweet. So what's the problem? Link - ( New Window )
You have no freaking idea about Siam. You dont even know someone who knew someone who knows him.
And the logic that anyone in Analytics is responsible for the myriad of decisions and circumstances in the chain to field results is just so illogical.
the Giants github library has been non existent compared with other teams.
We have been terrible.
I don't know Siam but those 2 points in isolation are enough to say we haven't done a good job and the person running our analytics operation isn't doing a good enough job.
Just because the people who are on my side are tired of arguing with people that want to sweep the mistakes of our team doesn't mean i'm embarrassing myself.
That's the point i've always made and it has been a strong one and i'm not embarrassed in the least bit to hammer it home. As some of you absolutely were involved with the way the Giants have thought about this and allowed them to flounder.
In the New York talent market they needed to do better than their performance on the field and that Github library. Full stop it was negligent behavior.
Do any of us know how much it contributed to their decision making? No that's the red herring that has tossed around to disavow very relevant points made by those who know advanced analytics very well. Have built systems.
Exhausting people debating with you on a point that you've already decided, that the Giants haven't been negligent on this doesn't make you right. People that believe what I do are tired of arguing over it, that's why GoTerps left and it's absolutely relevant to remind people of that here as it's kind of phrased around here like an honest mistake the Giants made when it was the very thing you are accusing me of, overconfidence that they were handling something they didn't really understand.
love of God - please stop with this fucking nonsense:
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That's the point i've always made and it has been a strong one and i'm not embarrassed in the least bit to hammer it home. As some of you absolutely were involved with the way the Giants have thought about this and allowed them to flounder.
Nobody on this board allowed the team to flounder. Not a single fucking soul. You really aren't that dense are you?
That casting unfounded aspersions doesnt clean up a mess?
Ever ever occur to you that many people on BBI know a ton about Analytics, founded firms based on it, made their living in it for years, teach it at grad schools....but chose not to use it as if badges denote sound opinions?
Ever ever think ....its you? Not them? Ever consider that its not their shortcomings misunderstanding advanced predictive analytics...but your poor assumptions, illogical thinking, arrogance and refusal to engage in a way to learn
Assume you are half as smart as you think you are and make a quarter of the good insights you think you do...and take a period to humbly learn.
Maybe it has nothing to do with the Giants or anyone on the Giants. Or any noble cause you self nominate for yourself.
You cant heal by asserting things. Doesnt work that way.
it's not the multi billion dollar enterprise with one of the best talent bases in the world failing to demonstrate progress as simple as a github library that has failed.
It's the person that's pointing out that they should do better and using the qualifications of people they have and performance on the field as additional reference points. That's the embarrassment?
Could I have done this better? Yes, but most people always can say that.
Does it absolutely seem like from comments you've made on this thread that the Giants started taking this more seriously THIS off-season? Yes absolutely.
Was doing everything I could to see a future where they took it more seriously entirely my goal? Yes, yes and yes.
I don't care what part I played in it, I'm happy I did something. I'm happy I was on the side of pushing for modernizing. I do need to learn things, like everyone.
If what you have said is accurate i'm seeing what I want. The rolled up cruddy toilet paper analogy much more applies to the Giants than myself.
I wasn't always there but it has been many years since I've felt that I was more disrespectful to someone in a debate than they've been to me. I assure you any bravado or assertiveness I unleashed was as a calculated response to what I was getting.
that people on this board are in contact with decision makers.
So again, here you are speaking definitively on something you are 100% wrong about. What a surprise...
Look - self-proclaimed analytics expert - the idea that people on this board were involved in the way the Giants thought and "helped them flounder" is absurd at face value. If you dig deeper - it is pure fucking idiocy.
Think about it. Your assumption is that because people on BBI didn't complain about analytics that the Giants took no steps to implement them. That the Giants were happy to keep losing and not do anything on the analytics front because posters on BBI aided this thinking?? Are you really asserting that?
And then doubling down on it by alluding that you and others complaining about analytics finally got them to do something about it now??
Your timeline doesn't match up there, Ace. Tyseer Siam was brought on board several years ago. As was Berger.
For your ridiculous, back-slapping theory to work, the Giants would have had to be willfully ignoring analytics (because the fans weren't demanding it) and then only implement measures once the free-thinking analytics guys posted (the white knight, Capt'n Analytics!).
This is insanity with a heavy dose of smug cluelessness wrapped up all in one nice package of bullshit
NGD thinks he and Terps are sympatico except Terps actually stated his points clearly, supported them with supporting facts and insight which isn't what NGD is doing. I still can't figure out what the argument being made is aside from taking credit for the Giants new approach?
They were doing before and he doesnt know now. But he is certain that he and like minded posters were the Prime Movers
Except many of his assumptions in never saw anyone else make even when making the case the Giants were behind in this dimension.
I know I never made the case that they were ahead or behind. So many areas to consider I'd imagine any one team is ahead in one use case and behind in another.
It's a made up fake competition for its who implements an edge that "wins"
1) I don't claim to know what's going on in the building exactly. Nor do I think it's relevant or carries much weight who knows exactly or if anyone knows exactly. What matters and what I've pointed to is as long as they are making decisions that range from bad (Solder) to going against the grain on what the prevailing game theory would is wise probabilistic (Barkley) to truly head scratching things that seem to be both bad to the naked eye and poor game theory (LW and trading a premium pick for a player in a losing season in a contract year) which has the added distinction of being something that other teams don't do. When you do things like this and things like in the Saints game where you let them run down the clock and not give you the ball back when you have timeouts and they have 1st and goal it as Christian would say on some of the threads they could have teams of PhDs in vans in the parking lot and it shouldn't matter. But if you fall on your face as spectacularly as the Giants have...
2) The qualifications of the people you have in charge become relevant. Look hire your brother, hire someone that's never done the job, whoever, if the results on the field are there it doesn't matter one lick. That being said. When you have a guy like Siam in his position for 4.5 years of our worst performance it absolutely matters that he doesn't have experience with advanced math or building software systems when teams like the Patriots are using that stuff. When you don't have a github library for your organization. When the team has performed this poorly more heads should have rolled in the front office and as we watch teams modernize around us and we have the same guy leading the analytics effort and the same poor results, yeah I do not think it's fair to make the point that he's the right guy for the job. According to what metrics is he the right guy? Giants pride? What is that even anymore? To stick with Bill's poop analogies. If you walk by a building and it keeps smelling like shit and someone is like hey, maybe they should clean up the shit? Or bring in someone that's been proven to know how to clan up shit. The proper response to someone pointing that out isn't. Well have you ever seen anyone shitting in there? How do you know it's shit? Where's your proof. It doesn't matter who can prove what, what matters is it smells like shit and some people seem more than content to cover for the people doing whatever it is they are doing to make this team a steaming pile of it.
3)
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They were doing before and he doesnt know now. But he is certain that he and like minded posters were the Prime Movers
In no way shape or form have I ever called myself a prime mover. This is such an unbelievable stretch, I thought it might be beneath you but apparently not. My point has been and always will be that i'm an advocate for innovation, fostering fair cultures of creativity. I've stated numerous times on this thread that I don't know or care if I affected this process but I care that I tried to draw attention to the need to modernize. Which is much better than people who constantly downplay the extent that the people in charge haven't done nearly enough to make us better by looking at how to institute best practices, evolve, foster innovation. People who want to poke holes in arguments to defend a rotten nepotism oriented leadership structure that has failed us miserably. Yes, i'd rather be on the side of innovation every time. It's amazing how much the way a message is delivered comes into play when someone is defending a side without much other ground to stand on. Like the side of the Giants management being anything else but negligent failures in the last 4.5 years at least.
4) Strahan91, hello, remember when you tried to talk to me about the efficacy of non linear equations on a thread a year or so ago and I told you about my experience working with a major university on IP in evolving neural networks? When I tried to go into the work I did you just slinked off.
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If you knew what the Giants are actually doing in this space ( six days a week) since season end you would ask gidie to delete
This little threat that I would eat my words apparently because of the no doubt impressive work the Giants are doing now. Make whatever efforts you want to try to undermine the foundations of the points I've made but it is nothing short of insane to suggest that the Giants deserve any faith whatsoever in managements ability to do anything correctly right now. And yes, most people arguing this side i'm arguing are exhausted because it's like trying to convince a brick wall to be more giving but as I said when this started, sometimes you take peoples money for years and serve them shit sandwiches, sometimes they feel content in throwing some shit back at you.
Anyone that would like to get on a real life debate with me about analytics, AI, predictive systems where we can talk about what we know, how we've done it, what we've learned. I'd be happy to record that and post it here. Or broadcast it live. FatMan, interested? Would be my pleasure.
I don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.
I'm not even sure you're thinking of me? Anyways, while we're on the subject, you do realize you continue to post buzzwords without actually explaining the point you're trying to get across.
You are qualified on this subject because you licensed IP from a university? If you want credibility you need to provide details.
I've spent the better part of the last decade working with tech startups. Examples include a company that built the first end-to-end ML models to teach a car to drive on roads its never seen before, a company that uses deep reinforcement learning to train robotic arms to navigate complex environments, and a speech recognition company that uses end to end DL models using CNN/RNN hybrid models.
I only provide those details because you seem to think you are a being of superior intelligent and have far more experience in these things than a bunch of people on a football message board you don't even know. Furthermore, none of what I've done has a damn thing to do with what the Giants do/don't do or to question their employees' credentials. Which is why I've been pressing you to figure out what the hell you're talking about and yet you just keep using buzzwords with no substance.
I’ve spent time posting full data architectures on threads before and I recalled a specific interaction with you where you questioned something l I answered it and you disappears. Didn’t get into it again because it’s been litigated to death with Fatman specifically. I’ll post the threads next week with more substantive points as I don’t mind having an earnest debate about what best practices should be. I’m just frustrated that people seem to want to use every opportunity to wash away a negligent job when many were pointing to it being negligent for years
It's all good. I was just trying to understand your viewpoint. If you've been attacked for it repeatedly before then being defensive is understandable. Tone also can get lost in text.
My broader point is/was that it's a lot easier to talk about these things than to actually implement them knowing that it may not actually pay dividends. Anecdotally, I've had some conversations with a former NBA exec whose FO was touted as a pioneer by the media years ago for the way they built their staff, conducted their business, etc. He'll be the first to tell you that it was a helluva lot harder and more complicated in reality than in theory. He's more skeptical now than when he started. Some of it is the limitations of the business side to sports and some is the need to combine "old school" and "new school" expertise which, when humans and egos/emotions are involved, turns out to be a real issue.
The latter is important because any data only captures what can be collected when there are a lot of factors that can't be captured in a manner machines can compute so you need to figure out a way to make that all work and provide results in a time frame short enough to keep your job.
Very much agree that much ( but not all as near as I can tell) was true. As is true of many nfl teams
Very much agree that their record has been dismal.
Given the industry and their talent and coaching and the length of time it takes to develop and implement across the needs and constraints of talent cycles...I submit the relationship may be much more correlation than causality in years past.
Of the list of differentiators and their impact when you are talent poor ?
The supposition that it's a huge difference maker like it is in other industries and games is not yet clear.
We will close by indicating they did start but clearly underinvested years ago.
Reese and ross were not big advocates or adopters and that could...could have a lot to do with it. Dont know
I'm not particularly knowledgeable about other teams, I suspect there's a spectrum from great to poor use of technology in their operations.
Things we know from the post season comments: the GM spoke to an analytics professional, they are upgrading the tech in their scouting system, and the owner feels there is work to be done.
Decent enough evidence for me 2 (of who knows how many) of the leaders of the shop want to upgrade. Probably need a tech upgrade, a management upgrade, and certainly a talent upgrade.
I'm careful to focus on technology and not analytics (I've given up silly conversation on analytics for Lent).
There are plenty of really useful applications for data collection, data science, video, hardware, and software to be a better ran football shop -- and that's without ever even dipping your toe near the A word waters.
My view -- the Giants have probably been as bad inside the walls as they've been on the sidelines and on the field.
Too many bad contracts, too many failed picks, too many fired coaches, too many games they should have won, too many assholes, too many losing seasons.
B) The need for the more basic ( and I don't know where they are on this past present or future)technology and people to do the basics (like simple rapid video editing packages cut per position/athlete/offense and defense) to do 2 things:
1) Without that basic technology and the right practices at the ground level you cant get good data "in". As awe all know advanced analytical techniques are fun to talk about but the ancient saying still holds: "Garbage in/Garbage out"
I don't think the like for like sample sizes of football are easy to build so I hold more faith in field level execution practices
2) Those tools and practices are essential to "see", teach and prepare.
great post to point out that being competitive in this field includes some more basic things done well and embedding those practices every week of the annual cycle.
I remember someone once asked BB would they repeat as Super Bowl winners that year and his answer was:
" All I can tell you is if we are meeting our goals this week. I cant see or know about the last week until it gets here. So every week we strive to hit all our marks behind the scenes. That plays out on the field each week. Then we take each week and only that week until they tell us to stop"
In football, more so than other endeavors, innovation only is useful of turns into incremental gains in total system execution.
Too many variables for even execution of brilliant insights ( if you could find those insights).
So far in football, I see a lot of retro confirmation of correlations. That's a big step if the organizations don't veer emotionally from the findings.
Im not sure BB is as innovative as he is ruthless at culling.
The Patriots are also so far an outlier from the rest of the curve as to be cautious in claiming their results work that well. I submit their 17 year record is temporary and not replicable.
I think they have invested in analytics. I don't know that they are yet using much of any of that new published direction as opposed to refining the core basic data gathering and dissemination that Adams and BB deployed going on two decades ago.
For example, they sure didn't use it to win the first six Super Bowls...it wasn't around in front of those years performance cycles.
Drafting the Goat in the sixth round tends to have a halo effect on a lot of other things in the virtuous cycle. IBM hadn't claimed "advanced predictive analytics" back then nor done well elsewhere and yet may be dashed upon the cliffs of the tiny comparable data sets filled with exogenous unrepeatable variables found in football.
His schtick was "I'm always right and if you disagree you're an idiot."
Sometimes he was right, but his stance on any given issue was always that the Giants were wrong, the Giants were idiots, and those that disagreed with him were idiots.
Taking a predictable stance on everything doesnt show the great intellect that some of you often attribute to him. He wasn't weighing evidence to come to conclusions, he was often twisting it to suit his preconceived notions, the same thing he accused the rest of us of doing.
"Winning in the NFL is not about running the ball and stopping the run. Once you've controlled for injuries, it's about:
1. Making chunk plays on offense (for most teams this is throwing the ball; for Baltimore it's also running the ball with the quarterback)
2. Limiting chunk plays on defense (Belichick has understood this for years, focusing on limiting big plays and using red zone defense to turn TDs into FGs)
3. Turnovers
If I had to set a goal for the Giants in 2020 it's to get Jones's YPA up above 7.5. Along with turnovers that well correlate most to wins, IMO."
To which Joey in VA replied:
"Fucking bullshit. It's the FOUNDATION of winning football, if you can't do those two things you have no prayer of winning consistently, absofuckinglutely none, no matter what you're tired Grumpy Smurf asshole takes are you whiny self absorbed cunt faced fuck. Because Gettleman said it you don't believe it. Watching the 49ers? They have thrown it SIX FUCKING TIMES because the Packers CANNOT STOP THE RUN. IT's not hard, but self proclaimed geniuses like you who in fact don't know fuck all about this game and how it's played like to spout ill advised fucking bullshit that mean nothing. Football is a really easy game once you do the simple things right. No one gives a flying rat fuck what you say anymore you fucking no good crying waste of a heartbeat. Fuck you."
He’s brought some of it on himself, so I can’t say I feel bad. No doubt people are assholes to him, they suck too.
You're right about that. Given the current state of things it seems silly some of the childish nonsense that has gone on, myself included.
Well that is one interpretation. I think others would agree that he had become a self-righteous insufferable bore.
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another good example of the mob "winning" and exhausting a really good poster.
Well that is one interpretation. I think others would agree that he had become a self-righteous insufferable bore.
He had a few topic tracks that he could've eased up on his position, but a lot of the vitriol fired in his direction was over the top.
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if I'm not mistaken, and a bunch of people who resent him for constantly being right just lit into him.
His schtick was "I'm always right and if you disagree you're an idiot."
It really wasn't. He wasn't abusive or even merely dismissive towards those who disagreed with him in an insulting way. I mean, it's not like he's FMIC.
There's a faction of people who simply seemed determined to take his observations personally. I'll never understand it.
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In comment 14850499 santacruzom said:
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if I'm not mistaken, and a bunch of people who resent him for constantly being right just lit into him.
His schtick was "I'm always right and if you disagree you're an idiot."
It really wasn't. He wasn't abusive or even merely dismissive towards those who disagreed with him in an insulting way. I mean, it's not like he's FMIC.
There's a faction of people who simply seemed determined to take his observations personally. I'll never understand it.
It really was. If you didn't hate on every move you were blind optimist.
I wouldn't call it abusive, but I would call it arrogant dismissive condescension that lacked any self awareness.
He never understood that his reactions were as much based on emotion as those of the blind optimist.
It really was. If you didn't hate on every move you were blind optimist.
I wouldn't call it abusive, but I would call it arrogant dismissive condescension that lacked any self awareness.
He never understood that his reactions were as much based on emotion as those of the blind optimist.
I don't think I ever saw him introduce himself into a discussion by dismissing people as blind optimists in any kind of pejorative way. Typically, he'd make an argument against the Giants' way of doing something, someone would get uber-defensive about it, and he'd then say something along the lines of, "You can either be a blind optimist, or you can see the reality of what the Giants have been over the past 3 years."
I can see how you can squint and see self-aggrandizement and condescension there, but you'd have to ignore the fact that it was almost always in response to someone getting bent out of shape about his initial position.
I saw his frustration and anger had shrunk his field of vision and his willingness to consider opposing perspectives, but the reactions to him ranged to uncalled for to banworthy. That's elementary level. This forum needs to do better diffusing anger and vitriol.
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his cheering squad seems unable or unwilling to see that fact because they agree.
I saw his frustration and anger had shrunk his field of vision and his willingness to consider opposing perspectives, but the reactions to him ranged to uncalled for to banworthy. That's elementary level. This forum needs to do better diffusing anger and vitriol.
+1
Civil discourse is needed more than ever my friends. Please think about that before you respond to things.
Terps is football knowledgeable but too inflexible. People don't respond well to the know-it-all approach.
I'll be perfectly honest, anyone can be critical and there was a time in my life where I'd scrutinize the moves made by the teams I follow. But I don't see the point anymore outside of something clearly egregious. My views on sports have shifted and I don't take them all that seriously.
Just my $0.02 but there's a lot disdain thrown towards those that are simply along for the ride and a ton of dick measuring when it comes to being right about the Giants sucking. Its odd and its tiresome.
"Winning in the NFL is not about running the ball and stopping the run. Once you've controlled for injuries, it's about:
1. Making chunk plays on offense (for most teams this is throwing the ball; for Baltimore it's also running the ball with the quarterback)
2. Limiting chunk plays on defense (Belichick has understood this for years, focusing on limiting big plays and using red zone defense to turn TDs into FGs)
3. Turnovers
If I had to set a goal for the Giants in 2020 it's to get Jones's YPA up above 7.5. Along with turnovers that well correlate most to wins, IMO."
To which Joey in VA replied:
"Fucking bullshit. It's the FOUNDATION of winning football, if you can't do those two things you have no prayer of winning consistently, absofuckinglutely none, no matter what you're tired Grumpy Smurf asshole takes are you whiny self absorbed cunt faced fuck. Because Gettleman said it you don't believe it. Watching the 49ers? They have thrown it SIX FUCKING TIMES because the Packers CANNOT STOP THE RUN. IT's not hard, but self proclaimed geniuses like you who in fact don't know fuck all about this game and how it's played like to spout ill advised fucking bullshit that mean nothing. Football is a really easy game once you do the simple things right. No one gives a flying rat fuck what you say anymore you fucking no good crying waste of a heartbeat. Fuck you."
Whoa, no wonder. Grumpy smurf is beyond the pale.
Oh yep thats the problem with this place over the past few year its become a beacon of optimism!...(insert face palm here)
I'll be perfectly honest, anyone can be critical and there was a time in my life where I'd scrutinize the moves made by the teams I follow. But I don't see the point anymore outside of something clearly egregious. My views on sports have shifted and I don't take them all that seriously.
Just my $0.02 but there's a lot disdain thrown towards those that are simply along for the ride and a ton of dick measuring when it comes to being right about the Giants sucking. Its odd and its tiresome.
I disagree, no one bothers the just along for the ride posters.
If they were just along for the ride they won’t be spouting strong opinions that could be proven wrong. People with bad opinions get criticized which is standard for a message board.
Bo Jackson was similar maybe?
Imo, noticing that the Giants had a horrible stretch of bad decisions is not a blinding insight.
Non stop being unable to modulate emotions as if being a Giants was forced labor in the gulag was emotional, boring and far from insight.
Rooting for the Giants is voluntary. Its important to not get bent or emotionally stuck on non essential things.
If someone came on here and hit up 15 threads a day mad about the past unfairness of his girlfriend we'd all say drop her if she hurts that much.
Happens to all of us in life and Go Terps did the right thing and my bet comes back to be the very good poster that he really is
Joey's a great football poster, but he has frequent outbursts of unacceptable vitriol which undeniably make a mockery of the terms of use. And he's not alone.
that said, Go Terps has been in enough scrapes that I doubt he was driven off. Taking a break is more likely, unless (I hope not) he has more pressing life issues.
Hope he is well.
In the end "3-13 says otherwise" trumps everything apparently so there's really no point in arguing. I can do that too, but I don't see the point.
He isn't wrong, that post was bullshit and uncalled for. Joey made some good points but it was all lost when he went personal. I don't blame Terps for leaving on that one.
Comes down to the motivation of participating in this forum and the manner in which you behave.
Are you here to share information, gain information, learn and debate? Do you do that with respect, honesty, rigor, and some semblance of logic?
Can anyone point out a time when Go Terps crossed those lines?
Just a miserable guy.
Just a miserable guy.
What do you mean "optimism gather any steam."
Were his responses to you not based in fact or supporting evidence?
+1
He's one of the most consistent posters here. Hope he's just taking a break.
In the end "3-13 says otherwise" trumps everything apparently so there's really no point in arguing. I can do that too, but I don't see the point.
I don’t follow.
People just along for the ride don’t have to justify anything.
They are just fans, they don’t make predictions or state opinions as facts.
On the other hand, people who have championed a lot of the recent moves are quite easy to tear down, often using DGs own admissions as evidence.
Others view him as outside the box thinking, and don't see what the Pro-DG crowd sees.
Thus why Britt is complaining and others like Ron Mexico don't see any of it as other then him being a fan and talking football.
Others view him as outside the box thinking, and don't see what the Pro-DG crowd sees.
Thus why Britt is complaining and others like Ron Mexico don't see any of it as other then him being a fan and talking football.
What am I complaining about exactly?
Right now. Reality
That trumps old fish and old glories.
Can you tell us something new or something we can do about the past?
The operative word in "dwelling on bad choices" is dwelling. Repetition of the fucking obvious is not insight or intelligence or interesting. Its bleating.
Cant generate balanced assessments about now and the future if one is dwelling.
So for me, imo, 3-13 is just an historic fact and doesnt have much meaning today or tomorrow any more than 2007 and 2011 has meaning for today or tomorrow.
We lived the past. If we dont start living the future we have volunteered to pay a tax we didnt earn. We are fans not victims
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to post an optimistic opinion about anything Giants related. It’s as if he would not allow the optimism to gather any steam, and he must shit on that opinion before it made someone feel good about their favorite team.
Just a miserable guy.
What do you mean "optimism gather any steam."
Were his responses to you not based in fact or supporting evidence?
He would dismiss the posters optimism with his own negative opinions or “facts” that fit his own narrative. He always has to have the last word, because he was always right and you were always wrong. God forbid we say something positive about the Giants!!!
That’s really annoying to some people. Always rubbed me the wrong way. If I want to be optimistic about the team, aren’t I allowed? I try to find the positives in everything. I find I enjoy things more that way.
Others view him as outside the box thinking, and don't see what the Pro-DG crowd sees.
Thus why Britt is complaining and others like Ron Mexico don't see any of it as other then him being a fan and talking football.
Are you saying that Terps actually likes Gettleman? ;-)
I think it's more an issue of quantity. GoTerps thinks the Giants are a horribly run organization, which is a completely valid opinion. Repeating that same exact sentiment hundreds of times in a multitude of threads does get a bit tiring, even if you agree with him, unless you enjoy company in misery.
This board doesn't require strict manners and everybody has to learn to give and take some. But I don't think posters who really know stuff understand how that knowledge gets undermined by the ridiculous way they express themselves.
That’s really annoying to some people. Always rubbed me the wrong way. If I want to be optimistic about the team, aren’t I allowed? I try to find the positives in everything. I find I enjoy things more that way.
You put facts in quotes, are you implying he stated his opinion as fact or that he's untruthful?
Were there occasions when you made fact-based arguments in a debate with him when he shouted you down or forced the last word?
I've absolutely never seen him do that.
However, he also seemed skeptical of ownership and their willingness to empower Judge at Gettleman's expense.
If you don't reply to these positions with the BBI equivalent of "LOL" or "Why do you hate America?" I don't think you'd have a contentious debate with him on these points.
He's a big boy. He chose to leave on his own and he'd be the first one to tell you that.
As Bill said, we are fans, not victims.
That’s really annoying to some people. Always rubbed me the wrong way. If I want to be optimistic about the team, aren’t I allowed? I try to find the positives in everything. I find I enjoy things more that way.
I dunno, I can immediately think of one thing about which you're not really trying to find much positive.
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He would dismiss the posters optimism with his own negative opinions or “facts” that fit his own narrative. He always has to have the last word, because he was always right and you were always wrong. God forbid we say something positive about the Giants!!!
That’s really annoying to some people. Always rubbed me the wrong way. If I want to be optimistic about the team, aren’t I allowed? I try to find the positives in everything. I find I enjoy things more that way.
You put facts in quotes, are you implying he stated his opinion as fact or that he's untruthful?
Were there occasions when you made fact-based arguments in a debate with him when he shouted you down or forced the last word?
I've absolutely never seen him do that.
Fine. It’s useless to discuss this further obviously. I’ve made my point. I’m not missing Terps. Good grief...
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That’s really annoying to some people. Always rubbed me the wrong way. If I want to be optimistic about the team, aren’t I allowed? I try to find the positives in everything. I find I enjoy things more that way.
I dunno, I can immediately think of one thing about which you're not really trying to find much positive.
Haha, touché...
Terps wore me down. Couldn’t take it anymore.
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In comment 14850703 GiantGolfer said:
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That’s really annoying to some people. Always rubbed me the wrong way. If I want to be optimistic about the team, aren’t I allowed? I try to find the positives in everything. I find I enjoy things more that way.
I dunno, I can immediately think of one thing about which you're not really trying to find much positive.
Haha, touché...
Terps wore me down. Couldn’t take it anymore.
Funnily enough, that's how some feel about this team being garbage for nearly a decade.
They are the exact same.
Some people think it's important to point out the difference between having the right processes vs. just having a chance to compete
There is plenty of evidence we don't have the right processes. And I fear a few even mediocre seasons (7-9, 9-7) could enable us to fall further and further behind
I think GoTerps was very much in the same boat and it's a shame how exhausting it is to just balance out the debate sometimes. The attacks that are leveled at people that frankly come to the table with a lot more tangible thought processes is astounding
It may have seemed like GoTerps was on his horse about something but frankly the amount of times something would get litigated then someone would come back a week later and act like the conclusions were different, it's really mind boggling to watch it exist
I guess that's par for the course of the world right now though
He was excoriated repeatedly. It really was as if his anti-OBJ position was tantamount to liking the terrorists. And after he was ultimately proven right, he'd very occasionally (and carefully) offer something along the lines of how he'd been saying it for years, but IMO showed fairly remarkable restraint against posting any "I told you so."
Some of the people who absolutely ridiculed him for any negative OBJ position have seemingly purged their former opinions about Beckham from history. Terps would never do that.
I know which of the two I prefer reading posts from.
Right now. Reality
That trumps old fish and old glories.
Can you tell us something new or something we can do about the past?
The operative word in "dwelling on bad choices" is dwelling. Repetition of the fucking obvious is not insight or intelligence or interesting. Its bleating.
Cant generate balanced assessments about now and the future if one is dwelling.
So for me, imo, 3-13 is just an historic fact and doesnt have much meaning today or tomorrow any more than 2007 and 2011 has meaning for today or tomorrow.
We lived the past. If we dont start living the future we have volunteered to pay a tax we didnt earn. We are fans not victims
Wouldn’t it be foolish to ignore history? Particularly when is the same guys steering the ship?
Btw, the only ones still dwelling on the 2017 3-13 record are the pro DG crowd continuing to push blame on the last administration.
I’m pretty negative that the team will return to glory anytime soon but I don’t feel like a victim. I am however loosing interest, which is what Mara should be really afraid of.
He was excoriated repeatedly. It really was as if his anti-OBJ position was tantamount to liking the terrorists. And after he was ultimately proven right, he'd very occasionally (and carefully) offer something along the lines of how he'd been saying it for years, but IMO showed fairly remarkable restraint against posting any "I told you so."
Some of the people who absolutely ridiculed him for any negative OBJ position have seemingly purged their former opinions about Beckham from history. Terps would never do that.
I know which of the two I prefer reading posts from.
The bolded is very true.
Even if you are convinced DG is a moron and the Maras are incompetent, what does stating it over and over actually do? I get being critical, but it’s an obsession for some people like if you say it enough everyone else will agree to and we can storm MetLife and demand answers.
Even if you are convinced DG is a moron and the Maras are incompetent, what does stating it over and over actually do? I get being critical, but it’s an obsession for some people like if you say it enough everyone else will agree to and we can storm MetLife and demand answers.
GoTerps literally posted this one time. That’s almost exactly what he said.
Even if you are convinced DG is a moron and the Maras are incompetent, what does stating it over and over actually do? I get being critical, but it’s an obsession for some people like if you say it enough everyone else will agree to and we can storm MetLife and demand answers.
+1
Even if you are convinced DG is a moron and the Maras are incompetent, what does stating it over and over actually do? I get being critical, but it’s an obsession for some people like if you say it enough everyone else will agree to and we can storm MetLife and demand answers.
There have been several posters who said they continued to post it so that the team would take notice and take action. Terps was one of them. He said he would continue to say how shitty the team was being run because he knew people associated with the organization read BBI.
The guys railing about analytics said the same thing.
I chuckle at the image of Mara reading BBI and thinking that the poster who wants everyone on a rookie contract and would keep a stable of mobile QB's on the roster is the voice of reason that shows he should change his ways.
But that's what the reality is...
That's probably frustrating for those who debated him, because being wrong meant 1) being wrong 2) the team sucked.
In my interactions with him he's always been respectful, on-topic, and thorough. That's pretty uncommon here. That's a strong plus in his favor.
There are as many members of this site who take repeated stances: 1) the past doesn't matter 2) there's nothing you can do as a fan 3) the Giants are going to shock everyone 4) the Giants are going to be awesome
How any of those views are anymore interesting than a candid assessment of the team is beyond me.
We’ve been poorly led the last few years and the talent was decimated after 2011. We’ve slowly built up a war chest of younger talent and cap room. Now the coaching needs to finish the job and we need another good draft in 2020.
Pray judge is the goods. If he is, we’re set. If he isn’t, none of these debates will matter fuck all.
The guys railing about analytics said the same thing.
At the end-of-season press conference and interview rounds, did you not get the sense Gettleman was in close consult with Pat Hanlon on the pulse of the fans and media?
Do you think the Giants as a multi-billion dollar entertainment franchise aren't closely monitoring customer sentiment, customer satisfaction and the tie in to lower attendance, revenue etc.?
That's kind of business 101 these days. Mara's probably not kicking back opening the mock draft threads, but the Giants most certainly track sentiment, and BBI is definitely high enough traffic to enter the monitoring spectrum.
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There have been several posters who said they continued to post it so that the team would take notice and take action. Terps was one of them. He said he would continue to say how shitty the team was being run because he knew people associated with the organization read BBI.
The guys railing about analytics said the same thing.
At the end-of-season press conference and interview rounds, did you not get the sense Gettleman was in close consult with Pat Hanlon on the pulse of the fans and media?
Do you think the Giants as a multi-billion dollar entertainment franchise aren't closely monitoring customer sentiment, customer satisfaction and the tie in to lower attendance, revenue etc.?
That's kind of business 101 these days. Mara's probably not kicking back opening the mock draft threads, but the Giants most certainly track sentiment, and BBI is definitely high enough traffic to enter the monitoring spectrum.
If I worked in PR for the giants I’d be all over the interwebz. If Hanlon or his lackeys weren’t doing so that would irresponsible or neglectful, in my view.
That said, many of us go too far sometimes. I preach too much and then drop out of threads which is dooshy in its own right. Nothing personal, it’s just my way of venting. This place should be cathartic and fun for everyone. If it stops being so, it’s time to go.
We need to fucking win again. Giants fans are my favorite people on earth. There’s a kinship. We’re just in a sorry state. It will get better. I firmly believe that. Once we win again we can all sing koombaya.
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There have been several posters who said they continued to post it so that the team would take notice and take action. Terps was one of them. He said he would continue to say how shitty the team was being run because he knew people associated with the organization read BBI.
The guys railing about analytics said the same thing.
At the end-of-season press conference and interview rounds, did you not get the sense Gettleman was in close consult with Pat Hanlon on the pulse of the fans and media?
Do you think the Giants as a multi-billion dollar entertainment franchise aren't closely monitoring customer sentiment, customer satisfaction and the tie in to lower attendance, revenue etc.?
That's kind of business 101 these days. Mara's probably not kicking back opening the mock draft threads, but the Giants most certainly track sentiment, and BBI is definitely high enough traffic to enter the monitoring spectrum.
I'm not saying that the Giants don't monitor BBI. We know they do. I know that first hand.
But it is pretty arrogant or ignorant to think that posting a negative opinion over and over again will result in tangible change. Especially with some of the non-sensical theories floated out there like trading away players coming up for a 2nd contract to have as much of the roster as possible on their rookie contracts, or having a stable of interchangeable QB's so you never have to pay one handsomely.
Then again - there are supposedly paid shills here too....
Even if you are convinced DG is a moron and the Maras are incompetent, what does stating it over and over actually do? I get being critical, but it’s an obsession for some people like if you say it enough everyone else will agree to and we can storm MetLife and demand answers.
I do agree that being overly repetitive In any capacity is pretty annoying.
Terps is pretty monotone so I can understand how it gets under some people’s skin.
They are the exact same.
He quotes Mike Lombardi a lot not Matt Lombardo. Mike Lombardi has an axe to grind and is very biased in his opinions. Everything has to be the Patriots way but one argument I had with Terps over the years is doing things the Pat's way doesn't work. How many have tried and failed? The reason is that it needs to be built up. You have to establish a culture. Then you need to start producing wins. Then you can get players for bargain deals and then it flows. Belichick has a philosophy that he runs his teams by. That and him cannot be replicated. Lombardi also likes to say one thing and then contradict himself later. If a team is winning he points to things that are similar to the Pats. When things don't work he says other things. It is easy to say after the fact. He has beaten the drum for years that the Giants need to hire someone from the Pats to change the way we do things. We do that and then he criticizes us again and I think it had to do with us not hiring his son or some shit. Long story short, listening to one person's views is never enough.
I think Belichick deserves the most credit but it can't be really underestimated how much something like Brady taking 15-20M under market can help a team in a hard capped league. Kraft has just as much to do with that as Belichick IMO.
This is a grown man. We've seen this sort of starkly humiliating posting style from him before (Exhibit A, one of many). And we all (regrettably) know people like this in our lives. Pissy & vituperative. They lash out. Fake "tough guys." And we know that inside they're the most flailingly insecure people among us.
Terps don't let a massive loser like Joey dissuade you from posting here. And I hope you laughed at him when you read that catastrophe, as so many do behind his back day in & day out of his frivolous, sad sack life.
If I remember correctly, the thought he expressed was around posting negative opinions being heard, not his views on roster construction.
I don’t remember any time he thought the Giants were listening for his takes on how.
But back to the team gauging fan sentiment. You don’t believe in part that temp is checked to at least indirectly guide change? Wasn’t it widely reported a tipping point for Mara and benching Manning the empty seats?
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In comment 14850812 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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There have been several posters who said they continued to post it so that the team would take notice and take action. Terps was one of them. He said he would continue to say how shitty the team was being run because he knew people associated with the organization read BBI.
The guys railing about analytics said the same thing.
At the end-of-season press conference and interview rounds, did you not get the sense Gettleman was in close consult with Pat Hanlon on the pulse of the fans and media?
Do you think the Giants as a multi-billion dollar entertainment franchise aren't closely monitoring customer sentiment, customer satisfaction and the tie in to lower attendance, revenue etc.?
That's kind of business 101 these days. Mara's probably not kicking back opening the mock draft threads, but the Giants most certainly track sentiment, and BBI is definitely high enough traffic to enter the monitoring spectrum.
I'm not saying that the Giants don't monitor BBI. We know they do. I know that first hand.
But it is pretty arrogant or ignorant to think that posting a negative opinion over and over again will result in tangible change. Especially with some of the non-sensical theories floated out there like trading away players coming up for a 2nd contract to have as much of the roster as possible on their rookie contracts, or having a stable of interchangeable QB's so you never have to pay one handsomely.
Then again - there are supposedly paid shills here too....
It's akin to someone not wanting to post a draft prospect they like so that they won't tip off other teams.
Leaving if it does not please you or add to your life is smart and husbands emotional fuel for more important things.
Ive been watching the Yankees and Giants for a long time. Even in their worst years I did not miss a Giants game if it was on TV and followed on radio those times the season was so bad they stopped televising end of season Giants games. But I missed a few games the two years prior to this because there was no there there. I did not confuse those years with the next year
Yankees, if I was in NYC, I missed games in the 80's and early nineties. I did not let my thoughts about tough times analyze what was happening now( pro and con)
Never stopped being the teams I rooted for. But its a tough slog when the product sucks.
That's not the same thing as weighing the current possible things that may work, things that are changing and mostly things we do not know yet
That's why attaching optimism or pessimism seems so odd to me. We have no idea if Jones is a coach killer or a 15 year top 10 QB. If Barkley is 2000 yards of offense per year or a guy with spectacular runs who isn't worth the second contract. We don't know if like many GMS. DG makes many mistakes but gets DJ/SB and Dexter Lawrence right. We don't know if he is a big part of Judges selection and success or mediocrity. Or he could be an absolutely awful GM that wrecks the next 6 years. All are possible outcomes. We don't know.
We don't know if he was told to extend Eli. We probably wont ever know.
So is optimism rational in the face of not knowing? Don Quixote thought so. IS passionate pessimism in the face of no knowing realistic or just the preferred way some one thinks (feels).
Lot of folks torturing the partial data into confessing their feelings are right and getting offended if anyone disagrees.
That said, I wouldn't root for a team I despise and who irritates me. and a lot of guys seem to. lot of guys root for a team they don't know either.
Lets leave it as this in regard to how some folks mirror things that happen in life.
If you are having a tough time financially, at work, health wise and the wife keep buying and buying because she believes in a golden future...that's annoying to put it mildly.
But if your wife let no chance go by to tell you the car sucks, the house sucks, your job sucks, your past decisions suck and your beliefs suck...we all say maybe its time to tell her to STFU.
We understand both cases and how grating they can be. But we don't see ourselves playing those same roles out on BBI
It takes patients and thick skin to beat that drum and that’s what I give him credit for. Everything else? Meh, not really.
Eternal pessimists get the best of both worlds anyway, They gloat when they are right and they win when when they are wrong “whoops my bad but whatever, Giants won!”
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In comment 14850834 christian said:
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In comment 14850812 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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There have been several posters who said they continued to post it so that the team would take notice and take action. Terps was one of them. He said he would continue to say how shitty the team was being run because he knew people associated with the organization read BBI.
The guys railing about analytics said the same thing.
At the end-of-season press conference and interview rounds, did you not get the sense Gettleman was in close consult with Pat Hanlon on the pulse of the fans and media?
Do you think the Giants as a multi-billion dollar entertainment franchise aren't closely monitoring customer sentiment, customer satisfaction and the tie in to lower attendance, revenue etc.?
That's kind of business 101 these days. Mara's probably not kicking back opening the mock draft threads, but the Giants most certainly track sentiment, and BBI is definitely high enough traffic to enter the monitoring spectrum.
I'm not saying that the Giants don't monitor BBI. We know they do. I know that first hand.
But it is pretty arrogant or ignorant to think that posting a negative opinion over and over again will result in tangible change. Especially with some of the non-sensical theories floated out there like trading away players coming up for a 2nd contract to have as much of the roster as possible on their rookie contracts, or having a stable of interchangeable QB's so you never have to pay one handsomely.
Then again - there are supposedly paid shills here too....
It's akin to someone not wanting to post a draft prospect they like so that they won't tip off other teams.
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In comment 14850861 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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In comment 14850834 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14850812 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
There have been several posters who said they continued to post it so that the team would take notice and take action. Terps was one of them. He said he would continue to say how shitty the team was being run because he knew people associated with the organization read BBI.
The guys railing about analytics said the same thing.
At the end-of-season press conference and interview rounds, did you not get the sense Gettleman was in close consult with Pat Hanlon on the pulse of the fans and media?
Do you think the Giants as a multi-billion dollar entertainment franchise aren't closely monitoring customer sentiment, customer satisfaction and the tie in to lower attendance, revenue etc.?
That's kind of business 101 these days. Mara's probably not kicking back opening the mock draft threads, but the Giants most certainly track sentiment, and BBI is definitely high enough traffic to enter the monitoring spectrum.
I'm not saying that the Giants don't monitor BBI. We know they do. I know that first hand.
But it is pretty arrogant or ignorant to think that posting a negative opinion over and over again will result in tangible change. Especially with some of the non-sensical theories floated out there like trading away players coming up for a 2nd contract to have as much of the roster as possible on their rookie contracts, or having a stable of interchangeable QB's so you never have to pay one handsomely.
Then again - there are supposedly paid shills here too....
It's akin to someone not wanting to post a draft prospect they like so that they won't tip off other teams.
Hee Hee. The vast majority here will not get that reference.
Wonder what's happening in Syracuse these days?
It's akin to someone not wanting to post a draft prospect they like so that they won't tip off other teams.
Hee Hee. The vast majority here will not get that reference.
Wonder what's happening in Syracuse these days?
I sometimes wonder if that guy is still alive.
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another good example of the mob "winning" and exhausting a really good poster.
Well that is one interpretation. I think others would agree that he had become a self-righteous insufferable bore.
This is most correct. He was over the top. In his mind, His opinion was correct and any alternatives were wrong. His GM search plan was absolutely ludicrous. Like any team has time to form a committee to find a GM and then be ready to hire a HC and then be ready for FA and the draft. It was like he did not see that the good GMs and HCs were gone by mid-January.
Any way, hope he comes back.
He was always a good poster. But after DG was hired he went ballistic.
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You staying safe my friend?
Bergen County is the center of things here in Jersey but everything OK. How are you and the family?
I have read it was bad there, be safe.
We are doing OK, just saying home for the most part because it is in our area.
But I have yet to see a candid assessment of the emerging team on BBI.
I have only seen many opinions
It takes patients and thick skin to beat that drum and that’s what I give him credit for. Everything else? Meh, not really.
Eternal pessimists get the best of both worlds anyway, They gloat when they are right and they win when when they are wrong “whoops my bad but whatever, Giants won!”
I observe posters like Go Terps making specific criticisms of specific actions by the team. The team has been horrible so, sure there have been many.
I don’t put him in the group that makes blanket, unsubstantiated claims. His posts are cogent.
I don’t believe there is any more inherent value in being an optimistic fan. Part of the fun of fandom is the highs and lows. Complaining about the team is the rite of the loser.
What’s terribly boring to me are debates that start evidence based then devolve into “we’ll just see,” “why not us?” “It’s better to have hope than not.” Those are mind numbing responses to me.
I’m not trying to get at with you with that comment btw, or your optimism. You’re one of my favorite posters and you’re consistently, and genuine in my view.
Appreciate the kind words, and same to you!
So to Terps and BBI at large, I am sorry. I lose my mind, it happens and I constantly work on it but I'm not doing a good job of it lately, I freely admit it. I'll take a break from posting for a while, it seems like just punishment for the apparent furor I caused. For the record, I don't think it's me, solely because GoTerps is in my opinion, too strong minded to be driven off. If he's backing away it's way more than one grotesque post from me. I'm not absolving myself, it was way over the top, but I don't think anyone on here wields any power over that man. Adios for a while friends.
Two of the posters I always try to listen to
An exchange we had forced me to take account whether I was genuinely displeased with some moves or whether I was just displeased with Gettleman. It was the latter. I'm open to liking him (I think).
Here is what I mean by that:
1) I don't think he makes the top 3 and maybe the top five swing factors in performance that most determine our success going forward
2) In a measured fact based organization ( that is when the majority of the time, the influencers and input if not the decisions are made by fact based people) I think impulsivity and "going for it now " is reduced.
Biggest thing I saw in this years FA. We may not agree with one pick or all. The structures of the deals signaled a ton.
Now will this fan base sit still for a measured approach after years of fly by seat of the pants? I don't know.
But even if DJ or Judge fails, fixing the team is now much more doable and quicker than the constrained positions we found ourselves in recently
Point being if your default position is negativity you are going to increase your odds of being right a lot more.
As it relates to GT, I've had a bunch of conversations with him over the past year and there were probably just as many individual things we agreed on as disagreed. JMO but where things go off the rails is when everything comes back to relentlessly believing the organization has no clue what they are doing. Barkley's a great player but they shouldn't have picked a RB. Jones showed promise but the new coach should get to pick a new QB if he wants. A lot of salary cap room but spending money on FA is losing strategy, and that just shows how poor the roster is. Everything about this team is fruit from the poisonous tree of org incompetence. There's some truth to that because the Mara's have made some bad decisions, especially recently with the last 2 coaching hires, but they are also far from the worst ownerships in sports. If the Maras are incompetent what are the Wilponzis? Or Dolan?
But if your wife let no chance go by to tell you the car sucks, the house sucks, your job sucks, your past decisions suck and your beliefs suck...we all say maybe its time to tell her to STFU.
That's an apt metaphor, but I think it illustrates a different level of how personally invested some fans can be.
If someone insults the Giants, I don't feel as though my decision to root for them has been attacked as I would in the examples you provided. But perhaps some people do.
When taking a step back and realizing he's a single character in a play that's hopefully progressing from Cats to Tartuffe soon, I can muster more positivity.
When taking a step back and realizing he's a single character in a play that's hopefully progressing from Cats to Tartuffe soon, I can muster more positivity.
Hey, Cats doesn't really qualify as a pla...
Oh, I see... another apt metaphor.
Smiling and waving and looking so fine - ( New Window )
I challenged him a few times on copying the Patriots Way...
The Patriots Way only works with Bill Belichick.
Without Lil Bill - the Pats are the worst team in the league. Worse than Miami.
Maybe Odell
That's an interesting love triangle there
Awful ownership/managment/coaching and results for the better part of a decade SHOULD drive fans to a pretty negative and skeptical stance.
I'd rather read those posts any day of the week than 150 words of derpity-derp-derp deference to every single move the FO makes. (...which is not to say that anybody with anything positive to say is in that camp, but I personally find one a hell of a lot more grating than the other)
Sounds like a very stressful way to approach things.
What is this " I don't like to debate the unknowable" thing?
Clearly enough to merit and immediate issue and a long chapter in DSM-VI
i really think this what it comes down to. I like the discussions and debates but DG was always going to be defined by these next few years more than 2018-2019. The giants were never winning big those years anyway and anyone with half a brain knew so. We were hopeful for a run with Eli at the end, but they simply didnt have enough great talent to sustain anything worthwhile. Maybe they could have stolen 9-10 games in those years, but that was their ceiling. this was always a long game approach no matter what horse crap lip service we were fed from Mara, DG or anyone else.
So here we are, year 3 of the rebuild. New staff. Second year QB. DG can walk into the sunset a hero here if the Giants start to win again and 9 and no one will give a fuck about Solder, Omamahe, Stewart or 9 total wins over 2 seasons. None of that will matter if 2020 mimics 2005.
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but stopped doing because it ends up going nowhere.
Even if you are convinced DG is a moron and the Maras are incompetent, what does stating it over and over actually do? I get being critical, but it’s an obsession for some people like if you say it enough everyone else will agree to and we can storm MetLife and demand answers.
There have been several posters who said they continued to post it so that the team would take notice and take action. Terps was one of them. He said he would continue to say how shitty the team was being run because he knew people associated with the organization read BBI.
The guys railing about analytics said the same thing.
I chuckle at the image of Mara reading BBI and thinking that the poster who wants everyone on a rookie contract and would keep a stable of mobile QB's on the roster is the voice of reason that shows he should change his ways.
But that's what the reality is...
As someone that worked for the organization, they absolutely read BBI. Front office people 100% do.
What I don't think happens is that posts are used to drive moves or behavior. Or that there are paid shills on here.
So complaining over and over again with the goal of changing things is pretty futile. That's different from noticing, and I still have that funny image of Mara reading BBI.
What I don't think happens is that posts are used to drive moves or behavior. Or that there are paid shills on here.
So complaining over and over again with the goal of changing things is pretty futile. That's different from noticing, and I still have that funny image of Mara reading BBI.
Smart businesses in modern times would be using feedback from BBI to gauge customer sentiment, just like you can use Twitter to gauge customer/fan sentiment. This board is better gauge then any social media platform because it is full of the NY Giants core demographics.
It’s not going to drive everything, such as the draft picks or player personnel decisions (though professional teams use gauges how much money a team will make by signing big FA players ie Phillies signing Harper was money driven data analysis), but they certainly factor fan sentiment into some of the decision making that they do.
Sounds like a very stressful way to approach things.
What is this " I don't like to debate the unknowable" thing?
Clearly enough to merit and immediate issue and a long chapter in DSM-VI
LOL!
Some of the same posters who have vehemently argued that the Giants aren't a smart business, expect them to listen via this site:)
What some people miss time and time again is that you can be very smart and terrible at innovation. Two very different things.
The Giants still don't have any person with a math and computer science background with anything resembling a senior title in the organization which is an ongoing problem. That was the problem with calling people "computer guys" diminutive and still reflects a poor understanding the type of culture you need to attract high quality creative technologists.
But let's at least get back to the primary criticism; is posting your genuine feelings on the team heard?
The answer to that is an emphatic yes -- whether the Giants are operating in this century with a sophisticated social and customer sentiment monitoring service or tool, or if management/ownership is just reading the sports media.
The beat writers are a great example of this -- they all read BBI. They all lift from BBI.
Terps is 100% right, when you express your displeasure with the team in some small part that gets in front of management and ownership.
The Giants still don't have any person with a math and computer science background with anything resembling a senior title in the organization which is an ongoing problem. That was the problem with calling people "computer guys" diminutive and still reflects a poor understanding the type of culture you need to attract high quality creative technologists.
Jon Berger - Senior Director of Football Information
Jon Berger, who has been associated with the Giants for 38 years, is in his 13th season as the team's Senior Director of Football Information. Berger develops research reports for coaches, player personnel and management based on the analysis of statistical and tactical trends, and frequently makes presentation to players regarding strategy, game situations and rules interpretations. He works particularly closely with head coach Pat Shurmur and several members of the coaching staff.
Do you think those teams have good systems for predicting performance?
Do you think those teams have good systems for predicting performance?
Being of the opinion he is doing a poor job is an entirely different point than the one you made.
Prior to assuming his current position, Berger spent 21 years as the Giants' Director of Information Technology. In that position, he was responsible for maintaining the data network to assisting the coaching staff in analyzing tendencies and trends of both the Giants and their opponents.
Berger was first affiliated with the Giants organization in 1981, when he worked in the team's preseason training camp as an on-the-field assistant and later as an intern in the media services department.
After graduating from Stuyvesant High School, the Queens native attended the University at Albany, where he majored in computer science and mathematics, earning a B.S. degree and graduating Cum Laude with Dean's List honors in 1985. He was also a member of the Purple & Gold honor and service society. As an undergraduate Berger served as a computer science teaching assistant. After graduation, he remained at the University at Albany for another year as the computer coordinator for the physical education department, producing programs for all of the men's and women's intercollegiate teams.
And the point is that you wouldn't call someone you respected as a senior member of your organization a "computer guy" that's like calling a scout a "stopwatch guy"
If you knew what the Giants are actually doing in this space ( six days a week) since season end you would ask gidie to delete
Them working now doesn't mean they aren't shamefully late to the party. They deserve every bit of the hard time they've gotten from me and others
Them working now doesn't mean they aren't shamefully late to the party. They deserve every bit of the hard time they've gotten from me and others
That's bullshit.
Because you are operating from a base opinion that you KNOW what they have been doing, when it has been painfully obvious you don't. If you start the argument at the premise the Giants haven't done anything, then any move they make is going to be viewed as being late to the party.
And as pointed out above, you don't even have a clue of the qualifications of the very people you disparage.
Congratulations
I know we don’t lag, but we have some different assumptions that may or may not be applicable in the long term.
Having someone like Ty Siam is a slam dunk. He’s very good.
Congratulations
A fish out of water??
You will hate to hear this - but the Giants are in the middle of the pack in terms of their analytics, while you've claimed they are at the bottom or even the bottom.
There are still several teams that don't even have a Director of analytics.
What has become obvious over the months is that you guys beating the analytics drum were woefully off the mark in proclaiming that Gettleman was doing nothing and thet he'd likely continue to do nothing because he "shuns" it.
I think most of the board realizes your folly.
Your aren't even being clear in what you're supposedly clear about. Your last post about them being behind and "late to the party" is specifically targeted to their use of analytics, not their performance or record.
But this is par for the course. You aren't even able to communicate what you are clear on.
Congratulations
It's silly to believe fans here on either side of the argument contributed to anything the Giants have or haven't done with regard to this subject. Neither you nor Fatman have influenced it.
Congratulations
You can’t be serious with that
He thinks the Giants haven't implemented analytics because the fans have generally been happy and supportive.
And even as I type that, I'm snarting shit out of my nose.
No folly in pointing out allocating steep assets to an RB position especially when your team isn't ready to compete is not a smart thing to do.
My point was never that they were at the bottom. But the fact that they were in New York and not leveraging that to be on the cutting edge was negligent.
You can twist it however you like, that's what you love to do. But the fact is I really know advanced predictive systems, and you really don't. And I have no more time for this.
You are a Peach, Captain Analytics!!
If you really know advanced predictive systems, you are incredibly poor at communicating that expertise.
Smart businesses in modern times would be using feedback from BBI to gauge customer sentiment, just like you can use Twitter to gauge customer/fan sentiment. This board is better gauge then any social media platform because it is full of the NY Giants core demographics.
It’s not going to drive everything, such as the draft picks or player personnel decisions (though professional teams use gauges how much money a team will make by signing big FA players ie Phillies signing Harper was money driven data analysis), but they certainly factor fan sentiment into some of the decision making that they do.
The difference is that at the end of the day, just about anyone who spends their time posting on BBI is as loyal as fans get. The fans here are not at risk of rooting for another football team or picking up golf on Sundays instead. They're not going anywhere so the sentiment matters less than customer sentiment for an airline or a brand on Twitter where there are other very plausible options.
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But the fact is I really know advanced predictive systems, and you really don't. And I have no more time for this.
You are a Peach, Captain Analytics!!
If you really know advanced predictive systems, you are incredibly poor at communicating that expertise.
Well, he is a CEO. That's what his profile says.
I know we don’t lag, but we have some different assumptions that may or may not be applicable in the long term.
Having someone like Ty Siam is a slam dunk. He’s very good.
For those complaining about the Giants being behind the times, you should pay close attention to what Kicker says on the subject. If you've followed his posts on the Covid-19 thread, you'll see that he's quite qualified to opine on this subject.
Shanahan did the exact same thing in the Super Bowl. In fact it likely cost them the game. Are you blaming their lack of analytics experts? Of course not. Because it wasn’t the Giants.
The 49ers are roundly applauded for their analytics and still made the same in game decision as the Giants. Analytics are a tool. They aren’t the final decision maker. That’s on the coach.
So essentially, you have no freakin clue on how analytics played a role or didn’t play a role in not calling timeouts against the Saints. None.
Sometimes the best education anyone can get is just losing
I truly hope you've enjoyed being the guy on the titanic telling everyone that it would never sink. How could it, people at the top of their field built it, it was unsinkable.
For the record, my argument has always been that this front office could possibly win but they are severely limiting their upside by not embracing technological advancements. People are here on the record as saying they are working night and day to overhaul their practices now. I told you this in the middle of our arguments that I speak in shades and hedge my positions well.
Even if they win this year seems like it will be the result of finally taking the steps that myself and others were advocating.
I'm happy I was an advocate for progress as opposed to suggesting it was ridiculous to assume anything but the Giants were on top of innovation.
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But the fact is I really know advanced predictive systems, and you really don't. And I have no more time for this.
You are a Peach, Captain Analytics!!
If you really know advanced predictive systems, you are incredibly poor at communicating that expertise.
Well, he is a CEO. That's what his profile says.
Haha. Riiiight.
If I want to post sumptin when I dont know nothing I will. You dont own me. This is a Merica! I got rights. I can piss on myself whenever I want.
If I dont want to ever learn you cant take my freedom.
Commie.
I would respectfully disagree with him that Siam is the right kind of hire to lead an advanced analytics effort. And he's been with the team for 4 years and 5 months. The results on the field would absolutely support that, it's been one of our worst runs of football in franchise history. If he was providing say the front office with top flight information and we had these results it would imply that the people running the show were of below average intelligence. So what in people's estimation is the issue? Great information bad people? Great people and bad information? Or what?
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timeouts in game. Holding onto 3 timeouts against the Saints at the end of the half TWO years ago. No folly in pointing that out.
Shanahan did the exact same thing in the Super Bowl. In fact it likely cost them the game. Are you blaming their lack of analytics experts? Of course not. Because it wasn’t the Giants.
The 49ers are roundly applauded for their analytics and still made the same in game decision as the Giants. Analytics are a tool. They aren’t the final decision maker. That’s on the coach.
So essentially, you have no freakin clue on how analytics played a role or didn’t play a role in not calling timeouts against the Saints. None.
He reminds me of my teen aged son who sometimes after he learns something about a topic proceeds to act like an expert on the topic and will dig in hard when arguing someone else is wrong about something related to the topic. Usually it ends with him sheepishly apologizing when something he didn't consider was pointed out to him. He is sharp and will soon learn to not react prematurely because it's all part of the maturing process teens must go through. Right now he just gets a little to enthused about something he has learned that he finds interesting. NoGain reminds me of that, just harmless enthusiasm from a fan on a topic he finds interesting.
I think I strained some muscles shaking my head in disbelief here.
Magical thinking in every post.
Look, the thread was fading out and you jumped in to get attention by singing an old song.
If you were on your way to Bedlam, you should have jumped into that noose and started doing the hangman's jig.
You have been twisting, pissing and pooping yourself for an hour now. The whole square stinks. Please get yourself to the Thames and wash up.
Please. You are losing so much audience credibility you will need for other discussions. It is not fun to see you do this to yourself NGD.
You have been and are wrong on this subject. Period. No way to re frame it. Wisdom is the accumulation of lessons learned.
River is to the west.
I would respectfully disagree with him that Siam is the right kind of hire to lead an advanced analytics effort. And he's been with the team for 4 years and 5 months. The results on the field would absolutely support that, it's been one of our worst runs of football in franchise history. If he was providing say the front office with top flight information and we had these results it would imply that the people running the show were of below average intelligence. So what in people's estimation is the issue? Great information bad people? Great people and bad information? Or what?
Maybe there's context missing here but I'm having trouble figuring out what you're upset about then. The Giants have stunk for some time now. No one here would argue that point. They have made stupid decisions and again no one would argue that point. Even Gettleman said that they're reorganizing the staff to put a larger emphasis on data and technology. So culturally they're at least committing publicly to putting more value on that side of things. And by the way it has had an effect in some areas already even if it hasn't translated to the win column. See linked tweet. So what's the problem?
Link - ( New Window )
And the logic that anyone in Analytics is responsible for the myriad of decisions and circumstances in the chain to field results is just so illogical.
Babe, you are having a public breakdown.
Seriously, please make it stop for your own good.
That Shakespeare guy has a new one I'm going to go see. The Comedy of Errors.
We have been terrible.
I don't know Siam but those 2 points in isolation are enough to say we haven't done a good job and the person running our analytics operation isn't doing a good enough job.
Just because the people who are on my side are tired of arguing with people that want to sweep the mistakes of our team doesn't mean i'm embarrassing myself.
That's the point i've always made and it has been a strong one and i'm not embarrassed in the least bit to hammer it home. As some of you absolutely were involved with the way the Giants have thought about this and allowed them to flounder.
In the New York talent market they needed to do better than their performance on the field and that Github library. Full stop it was negligent behavior.
Do any of us know how much it contributed to their decision making? No that's the red herring that has tossed around to disavow very relevant points made by those who know advanced analytics very well. Have built systems.
Exhausting people debating with you on a point that you've already decided, that the Giants haven't been negligent on this doesn't make you right. People that believe what I do are tired of arguing over it, that's why GoTerps left and it's absolutely relevant to remind people of that here as it's kind of phrased around here like an honest mistake the Giants made when it was the very thing you are accusing me of, overconfidence that they were handling something they didn't really understand.
Nobody on this board allowed the team to flounder. Not a single fucking soul. You really aren't that dense are you?
So again, here you are speaking definitively on something you are 100% wrong about. What a surprise...
Ever ever occur to you that many people on BBI know a ton about Analytics, founded firms based on it, made their living in it for years, teach it at grad schools....but chose not to use it as if badges denote sound opinions?
Ever ever think ....its you? Not them? Ever consider that its not their shortcomings misunderstanding advanced predictive analytics...but your poor assumptions, illogical thinking, arrogance and refusal to engage in a way to learn
Assume you are half as smart as you think you are and make a quarter of the good insights you think you do...and take a period to humbly learn.
Maybe it has nothing to do with the Giants or anyone on the Giants. Or any noble cause you self nominate for yourself.
You cant heal by asserting things. Doesnt work that way.
All the best
Sure and by six degrees of separation he now has also influenced them and helped to right the franchise.
It's the person that's pointing out that they should do better and using the qualifications of people they have and performance on the field as additional reference points. That's the embarrassment?
Could I have done this better? Yes, but most people always can say that.
Does it absolutely seem like from comments you've made on this thread that the Giants started taking this more seriously THIS off-season? Yes absolutely.
Was doing everything I could to see a future where they took it more seriously entirely my goal? Yes, yes and yes.
I don't care what part I played in it, I'm happy I did something. I'm happy I was on the side of pushing for modernizing. I do need to learn things, like everyone.
If what you have said is accurate i'm seeing what I want. The rolled up cruddy toilet paper analogy much more applies to the Giants than myself.
I wasn't always there but it has been many years since I've felt that I was more disrespectful to someone in a debate than they've been to me. I assure you any bravado or assertiveness I unleashed was as a calculated response to what I was getting.
Haha. No kidding. This clown is a legend in his own mind.
So again, here you are speaking definitively on something you are 100% wrong about. What a surprise...
Look - self-proclaimed analytics expert - the idea that people on this board were involved in the way the Giants thought and "helped them flounder" is absurd at face value. If you dig deeper - it is pure fucking idiocy.
Think about it. Your assumption is that because people on BBI didn't complain about analytics that the Giants took no steps to implement them. That the Giants were happy to keep losing and not do anything on the analytics front because posters on BBI aided this thinking?? Are you really asserting that?
And then doubling down on it by alluding that you and others complaining about analytics finally got them to do something about it now??
Your timeline doesn't match up there, Ace. Tyseer Siam was brought on board several years ago. As was Berger.
For your ridiculous, back-slapping theory to work, the Giants would have had to be willfully ignoring analytics (because the fans weren't demanding it) and then only implement measures once the free-thinking analytics guys posted (the white knight, Capt'n Analytics!).
This is insanity with a heavy dose of smug cluelessness wrapped up all in one nice package of bullshit
You old bastard!
Except many of his assumptions in never saw anyone else make even when making the case the Giants were behind in this dimension.
I know I never made the case that they were ahead or behind. So many areas to consider I'd imagine any one team is ahead in one use case and behind in another.
It's a made up fake competition for its who implements an edge that "wins"
Kicker, Randy is tougher now since he's no longer allowed to have birthdays.
Thanks for reading
1) I don't claim to know what's going on in the building exactly. Nor do I think it's relevant or carries much weight who knows exactly or if anyone knows exactly. What matters and what I've pointed to is as long as they are making decisions that range from bad (Solder) to going against the grain on what the prevailing game theory would is wise probabilistic (Barkley) to truly head scratching things that seem to be both bad to the naked eye and poor game theory (LW and trading a premium pick for a player in a losing season in a contract year) which has the added distinction of being something that other teams don't do. When you do things like this and things like in the Saints game where you let them run down the clock and not give you the ball back when you have timeouts and they have 1st and goal it as Christian would say on some of the threads they could have teams of PhDs in vans in the parking lot and it shouldn't matter. But if you fall on your face as spectacularly as the Giants have...
2) The qualifications of the people you have in charge become relevant. Look hire your brother, hire someone that's never done the job, whoever, if the results on the field are there it doesn't matter one lick. That being said. When you have a guy like Siam in his position for 4.5 years of our worst performance it absolutely matters that he doesn't have experience with advanced math or building software systems when teams like the Patriots are using that stuff. When you don't have a github library for your organization. When the team has performed this poorly more heads should have rolled in the front office and as we watch teams modernize around us and we have the same guy leading the analytics effort and the same poor results, yeah I do not think it's fair to make the point that he's the right guy for the job. According to what metrics is he the right guy? Giants pride? What is that even anymore? To stick with Bill's poop analogies. If you walk by a building and it keeps smelling like shit and someone is like hey, maybe they should clean up the shit? Or bring in someone that's been proven to know how to clan up shit. The proper response to someone pointing that out isn't. Well have you ever seen anyone shitting in there? How do you know it's shit? Where's your proof. It doesn't matter who can prove what, what matters is it smells like shit and some people seem more than content to cover for the people doing whatever it is they are doing to make this team a steaming pile of it.
3)
4) Strahan91, hello, remember when you tried to talk to me about the efficacy of non linear equations on a thread a year or so ago and I told you about my experience working with a major university on IP in evolving neural networks? When I tried to go into the work I did you just slinked off.
Anyone that would like to get on a real life debate with me about analytics, AI, predictive systems where we can talk about what we know, how we've done it, what we've learned. I'd be happy to record that and post it here. Or broadcast it live. FatMan, interested? Would be my pleasure.
You are qualified on this subject because you licensed IP from a university? If you want credibility you need to provide details.
I've spent the better part of the last decade working with tech startups. Examples include a company that built the first end-to-end ML models to teach a car to drive on roads its never seen before, a company that uses deep reinforcement learning to train robotic arms to navigate complex environments, and a speech recognition company that uses end to end DL models using CNN/RNN hybrid models.
I only provide those details because you seem to think you are a being of superior intelligent and have far more experience in these things than a bunch of people on a football message board you don't even know. Furthermore, none of what I've done has a damn thing to do with what the Giants do/don't do or to question their employees' credentials. Which is why I've been pressing you to figure out what the hell you're talking about and yet you just keep using buzzwords with no substance.
My broader point is/was that it's a lot easier to talk about these things than to actually implement them knowing that it may not actually pay dividends. Anecdotally, I've had some conversations with a former NBA exec whose FO was touted as a pioneer by the media years ago for the way they built their staff, conducted their business, etc. He'll be the first to tell you that it was a helluva lot harder and more complicated in reality than in theory. He's more skeptical now than when he started. Some of it is the limitations of the business side to sports and some is the need to combine "old school" and "new school" expertise which, when humans and egos/emotions are involved, turns out to be a real issue.
The latter is important because any data only captures what can be collected when there are a lot of factors that can't be captured in a manner machines can compute so you need to figure out a way to make that all work and provide results in a time frame short enough to keep your job.
So again, here you are speaking definitively on something you are 100% wrong about. What a surprise...
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
No resume critiques, no Git scour, no knowing somebody who knows anybody necessary. They said it.
The forensics of the disciplines, the staff, and the comparisons to other teams is impossible to discern without much more information.
What's not hard to discern is the Giants have been abysmal for many years running and their tech is a part of it.
Very much agree that their record has been dismal.
Given the industry and their talent and coaching and the length of time it takes to develop and implement across the needs and constraints of talent cycles...I submit the relationship may be much more correlation than causality in years past.
Of the list of differentiators and their impact when you are talent poor ?
The supposition that it's a huge difference maker like it is in other industries and games is not yet clear.
We will close by indicating they did start but clearly underinvested years ago.
Reese and ross were not big advocates or adopters and that could...could have a lot to do with it. Dont know
Things we know from the post season comments: the GM spoke to an analytics professional, they are upgrading the tech in their scouting system, and the owner feels there is work to be done.
Decent enough evidence for me 2 (of who knows how many) of the leaders of the shop want to upgrade. Probably need a tech upgrade, a management upgrade, and certainly a talent upgrade.
I'm careful to focus on technology and not analytics (I've given up silly conversation on analytics for Lent).
There are plenty of really useful applications for data collection, data science, video, hardware, and software to be a better ran football shop -- and that's without ever even dipping your toe near the A word waters.
My view -- the Giants have probably been as bad inside the walls as they've been on the sidelines and on the field.
Too many bad contracts, too many failed picks, too many fired coaches, too many games they should have won, too many assholes, too many losing seasons.
A) Giving up on analytics for Lent
B) The need for the more basic ( and I don't know where they are on this past present or future)technology and people to do the basics (like simple rapid video editing packages cut per position/athlete/offense and defense) to do 2 things:
1) Without that basic technology and the right practices at the ground level you cant get good data "in". As awe all know advanced analytical techniques are fun to talk about but the ancient saying still holds: "Garbage in/Garbage out"
I don't think the like for like sample sizes of football are easy to build so I hold more faith in field level execution practices
2) Those tools and practices are essential to "see", teach and prepare.
great post to point out that being competitive in this field includes some more basic things done well and embedding those practices every week of the annual cycle.
I remember someone once asked BB would they repeat as Super Bowl winners that year and his answer was:
" All I can tell you is if we are meeting our goals this week. I cant see or know about the last week until it gets here. So every week we strive to hit all our marks behind the scenes. That plays out on the field each week. Then we take each week and only that week until they tell us to stop"
In football, more so than other endeavors, innovation only is useful of turns into incremental gains in total system execution.
Too many variables for even execution of brilliant insights ( if you could find those insights).
So far in football, I see a lot of retro confirmation of correlations. That's a big step if the organizations don't veer emotionally from the findings.
Im not sure BB is as innovative as he is ruthless at culling.
The Patriots are also so far an outlier from the rest of the curve as to be cautious in claiming their results work that well. I submit their 17 year record is temporary and not replicable.
I think they have invested in analytics. I don't know that they are yet using much of any of that new published direction as opposed to refining the core basic data gathering and dissemination that Adams and BB deployed going on two decades ago.
For example, they sure didn't use it to win the first six Super Bowls...it wasn't around in front of those years performance cycles.
Drafting the Goat in the sixth round tends to have a halo effect on a lot of other things in the virtuous cycle. IBM hadn't claimed "advanced predictive analytics" back then nor done well elsewhere and yet may be dashed upon the cliffs of the tiny comparable data sets filled with exogenous unrepeatable variables found in football.
Over and out.
This is fucking hilarious. Some people on this board have lost their fucking minds.
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Shit.
This is fucking hilarious. Some people on this board have lost their fucking minds.
Well, they do say that some inventors are eccentric.
I don't know if that applies to CEO's that jointly invent things with a university and their professors though.