From what we have seen, if Jones was in the draft this season would be go at four? Would we draft a different QB? Trade down and pick Jones up later? Sign Brady? Just kidding.
If you mean coming out of college, I would say he would probably be valued around Hebert. Knowing what we know now, there is not a QB in this draft I would take over him. Tua has his injury concerns. Jones is still younger than Burrow. Jones has shown he can do it at the NFL level and just needs to work on his pocket awareness and fumbles
They really liked him but he didn't come out. My rankings would be:
1. Burrow
2. Tua
3. Herbert (this year hurt his stock a little bit but the giants still really liked him)
4. Jones
5. Love
I think it would break like this:
Burrow
Herbert
Tua
Love
Jones
Fromm
There is no universe where Jones goes behind Love, and if you're assuming health for Tua, he's at WORST the #2 QB in the class, possibly #1, but definitely not behind Herbert. He's likely ahead of Herbert right now and that's WITH health questions.
And Fromm doesn't even belong on your list. He's really in the next tier of prospects. As it is, Love is already a cut below the top prospects and then Fromm is a another decent step down from there.
I think it would break like this:
Burrow
Herbert
Tua
Love
Jones
Fromm
There is no universe where Jones goes behind Love, and if you're assuming health for Tua, he's at WORST the #2 QB in the class, possibly #1, but definitely not behind Herbert. He's likely ahead of Herbert right now and that's WITH health questions.
And Fromm doesn't even belong on your list. He's really in the next tier of prospects. As it is, Love is already a cut below the top prospects and then Fromm is a another decent step down from there.
I would say it would go more like this:
Burrow
Tua
Jones
Herbert
Love
I don’t like Love, but there are a lot of evaluators who do. Possibly more so than they did Jones last year. And Herbert vs Tua is really a personal preference. Give me the big arm physically imposing guy over the smaller more fragile guy 9 times out of 10. Like I said above, if Jones were in this draft, I’d take Herbert over him at 4. I wanted him to come out last year and be the guy.
Obviously with COVID-19, it makes it that much more challenging. But, for all the credit Shurmur got as a QB whisperer, I saw no progress with regards to the fumbles as the season progressed.
If Jones can clean that up & it’s a huge if, he will be a very good QB for us and worth the 6th pick.
And felt like he was their guy, so if we didn't draft a QB this past year, we may still wind up with him in this draft.
It would have been really easy for them to go through last season with Eli and take someone from Burrow, Tua or Herbert this year. They also could have waited to 17 to take Jones, the fact that they grabbed him at 6 shows he was 100% their guy.
And believe me, teams compare players to next years classes, especially when making franchise altering decisions such as the next QB.
And felt like he was their guy, so if we didn't draft a QB this past year, we may still wind up with him in this draft.
It would have been really easy for them to go through last season with Eli and take someone from Burrow, Tua or Herbert this year. They also could have waited to 17 to take Jones, the fact that they grabbed him at 6 shows he was 100% their guy.
And believe me, teams compare players to next years classes, especially when making franchise altering decisions such as the next QB.
You sure about that regarding the next year’s crop of QB’s? Last year nobody thought highly of Burrow. And next year, you can write in #1 right now (Lawrence) and maybe even #2 (Justin Fields). If I was drafting #1 this year and those 2 were available, I’m taking Lawrence over any of the 2020 guys.
If you mean coming out of college, I would say he would probably be valued around Hebert. Knowing what we know now, there is not a QB in this draft I would take over him. Tua has his injury concerns. Jones is still younger than Burrow. Jones has shown he can do it at the NFL level and just needs to work on his pocket awareness and fumbles
+1 ... anyone who would take an unknown over what we saw last year is nuts ... or just biased against jones ... we got our guy for the next 15 years.
And felt like he was their guy, so if we didn't draft a QB this past year, we may still wind up with him in this draft.
It would have been really easy for them to go through last season with Eli and take someone from Burrow, Tua or Herbert this year. They also could have waited to 17 to take Jones, the fact that they grabbed him at 6 shows he was 100% their guy.
And believe me, teams compare players to next years classes, especially when making franchise altering decisions such as the next QB.
You sure about that regarding the next year’s crop of QB’s? Last year nobody thought highly of Burrow. And next year, you can write in #1 right now (Lawrence) and maybe even #2 (Justin Fields). If I was drafting #1 this year and those 2 were available, I’m taking Lawrence over any of the 2020 guys.
They look. Things change and sometimes just because someone isn't on our radars, doesn't mean they are not on theirs. This years vs next years crop isn't the ultimate decider, but they 100% take it as a piece of information.
I would suggest if you asked most non Giants fans the perception is not as high/glowing as it is here on BBI.
For me personally, I look at the TDs and say, that was really impressive. But I also look at the fumbles and I say, that's really bad. To me, those things somewhat cancel each other out and what's left after removing is pretty in the middle. So I'm much more of let's wait and see.
I would suggest if you asked most non Giants fans the perception is not as high/glowing as it is here on BBI.
For me personally, I look at the TDs and say, that was really impressive. But I also look at the fumbles and I say, that's really bad. To me, those things somewhat cancel each other out and what's left after removing is pretty in the middle. So I'm much more of let's wait and see.
It’s a very fair take. I’m hopeful he gets better coaching going forward, because the offense cannot function if he continues to fumble like he is.
RE: Most on this board seem to be very high on Jones
I would suggest if you asked most non Giants fans the perception is not as high/glowing as it is here on BBI.
For me personally, I look at the TDs and say, that was really impressive. But I also look at the fumbles and I say, that's really bad. To me, those things somewhat cancel each other out and what's left after removing is pretty in the middle. So I'm much more of let's wait and see.
I don’t see the TDs and turnovers canceling each other out. I look at the passes he makes and the 4 TD games without a good OL and with limited weapons as showing he has incredible upside. His turnovers are concerning, but he’s a smart kid and I am confident he can be coached out of it. If he improves dramatically on that, he gets a competent OL, and some weapons, we are set at QB for 15 years. If the turnovers don’t improve, he’s another Jameis Winston
some promise but I wonder just how many teams drafting at the top of this year's first round (that need QBs) would trade their pick even up for him right now if offered.
far too little is factored into context/opportunity.
Murray is such a unique player and has always been in a system tailored to his talents. But for the sake of this discussion, I'll leave him out.
Burrow/Tua/Haskins played exclusively with 4 and 5 star guys. Their weapons were dynamic and abundant and protection was no less than ideal. Haskins wasn't presented with a fair situation for success in his rookie year. That said he showed very poorly.
Herbert didn't have the ammunition those guys had but sat behind one of the 5 best OLs in college football.
Love and Jones both had low end talent around them in college. Jones showed very well in a number of areas. Ball security is a well documented area for improvement.
Arm strength: Herbert, Love, Haskins, Tua, Jones, Burrow...but none of the bottom three are in the Fromm (concerning) territory.
Accuracy: Burrow, Jones, Tua, Haskins, Love, Herbert
Fluidity/accuracy on the move: Herbert, Burrow, Jones, Love, Tua, Haskins
Intelligence: All seem to be very high end except Haskins.
Intangibles: There is not a red flag among them in the character department. Tua/Herbert seem to be the most outspoken in terms of vocal leadership. But as w learned with Eli, that may be an overrated trait.
Pocket presence: Tough to say for Tua, Burrow since they've only dealt with optimal conditions so far. I am unsure about Herbert. The other three clearly need development.
My summary would be to put them in the following buckets.
High risk, high reward:
-Love - Positives: gifted thrower, fluid mover, big/strong kid. Negatives: Was 2019 purely due to the lack of talent around him?
-Herbert - Positives: physically, he's near ideal. Maybe a hair less than Josh Allen in all departments. Negatives: Accuracy. And does he play conservatively and perhaps without the kind of swagger that many great QBs have (does he have a Ryan Tannehill personality?).
Tua - Positives: Reportedly a great kid in every possible way. Well schooled QB. Good fluid mover. Decisive thrower. Negatives: Size a tad below average. But in blinking red lights, is his durability a major problem. I fear that the answer is yes.
Safe:
Burrow/Jones: Both should be good players. Both bright, athletic, competitive young QBs, one who has had all the advantages one all the disadvantages in terms of surrounding cast. That'll change for Burrow in his rookie year. Still, I'd bet both will have good/solid careers.
Bust:
Haskins: The arm is pretty. Errortless, strong and accurate. But the rest of the package is concerning. Questions abound in the areas of intelligence, fitness, athleticism.
If Jones played for Duke this past season and he showed exactly what he showed this year playing for the Giants, where would he be picked?
I think he'd be picked #4 overall, no question, maybe higher. I think Barrow would still be picked ahead of him but I think he'd go ahead of Herbert or Tua.
last year was you knew you were automatically passing on not only a really good edge rusher in Josh Allen but more importantly, you were basically passing in advance on a real good crop of QB's to come out in 2020. That logic now seems sound as I think Herbert is a better prospect than Jones and we could have had him at #4.
If Jones played for Duke this past season and he showed exactly what he showed this year playing for the Giants, where would he be picked?
I think he'd be picked #4 overall, no question, maybe higher. I think Barrow would still be picked ahead of him but I think he'd go ahead of Herbert or Tua.
If someone said they'd take Herbert over Jones, I'd get it. Any of the others? I don't see it.
Tua - somewhat undersized and definitely injury prone
Love - boom/bust
Burrow - one hit wonder and it happened with the ideal situation
I would suggest if you asked most non Giants fans the perception is not as high/glowing as it is here on BBI.
For me personally, I look at the TDs and say, that was really impressive. But I also look at the fumbles and I say, that's really bad. To me, those things somewhat cancel each other out and what's left after removing is pretty in the middle. So I'm much more of let's wait and see.
Two comments on this:
1) Most non-giants fans didn't watch Jones' every throw or even close to it. They're basing their opinions on a combination of the predraft "analysis" and jokes made before he ever put on a Giants jersey and the fumbles. There's a reason all you hear from people who know the game (even ex-QB and coach analysts who didn't like pick) is glowing.
2) In a vacuum this is fair but it's easier to correct a fumbling problem than it is to teach a guy to throw TD's like Jones did. Statistically speaking it's far more likely that the fumbles are an anomaly than the TD's. Anecdotally, Kerry Collins once fumbled 23 times in a season then never came close to that number again. Lamar Jackson fumbled 12 times in 7 starts last year and just 9 in 16 starts this year.
Jones is still a young qb, but I like what I see - size, smarts,
I think it would break like this:
Burrow
Herbert
Tua
Love
Jones
Fromm
There is no universe where Jones goes behind Love, and if you're assuming health for Tua, he's at WORST the #2 QB in the class, possibly #1, but definitely not behind Herbert. He's likely ahead of Herbert right now and that's WITH health questions.
And Fromm doesn't even belong on your list. He's really in the next tier of prospects. As it is, Love is already a cut below the top prospects and then Fromm is a another decent step down from there.
I would say it would go more like this:
Burrow
Tua
Jones
Herbert
Love
I don’t like Love, but there are a lot of evaluators who do. Possibly more so than they did Jones last year. And Herbert vs Tua is really a personal preference. Give me the big arm physically imposing guy over the smaller more fragile guy 9 times out of 10. Like I said above, if Jones were in this draft, I’d take Herbert over him at 4. I wanted him to come out last year and be the guy.
So by your own caveat, we're assuming health for Tua, but you're going to still include "fragile" as a grading factor. Got it.
I'm not sure why I bothered to engage. Anyone who ranks Jordan Love ahead of Daniel Jones is not actually trying to be authentic in their assessment.
game for QBs is pretty tough to do. I'm sure he would be in the top 5 or around it, similar to what he was when we took him.
Quite honestly, through the years it has been pretty apparent that the "media scouts" really have no clue what they are doing or how to rank these guys prior to getting to the NFL. There are too many variables to consider and ranking guys just based on arm talent or college production really is a exercise in futility.
I mean, literally everyone on earth was laughing at the Giants when we took Jones. As of now you could argue you would want him over any single QB taken in 2018 and 2019.
DJ would probably go around where he would have last season
looks better than any of the prospects in the last 10 years or so. And outside of Tua's injury, no red flag or question mark, unlike just about every other prospect in the last 10 year.
I always question as to whether if Daniel Jones had a good team like LSU, which afforded Joe burrow success, how would he have done?
to me this is the simplest hypothetical exercise one can run in all of sports. Any QB would be better on a better team. It's really as simple as that. Bad QBs look a little less bad. Good QBs look a little better and great QBs with a lot of talent become legends.
looks better than any of the prospects in the last 10 years or so. And outside of Tua's injury, no red flag or question mark, unlike just about every other prospect in the last 10 year.
Outside of Tua's repeated injuries, and Burrow getting beaten out at Ohio State then being ordinary at LSU in year 1 before the Saints coordinator sparked year 2 and for better or worse, Herbert being = Josh Allen projection wise...
He didnt go 17 last season there smarty pants and of course you knew that.
I know the Giants are in a separate universe with some of you. But they represent a real life NFL team with real life scouts who loved Jones, and took him at 6. That means, Jones went 6th. That means, Jones WENT 6TH. Thus, he was considered a top 6 talent by at least one NFL team.
game for QBs is pretty tough to do. I'm sure he would be in the top 5 or around it, similar to what he was when we took him.
Quite honestly, through the years it has been pretty apparent that the "media scouts" really have no clue what they are doing or how to rank these guys prior to getting to the NFL. There are too many variables to consider and ranking guys just based on arm talent or college production really is a exercise in futility.
I mean, literally everyone on earth was laughing at the Giants when we took Jones. As of now you could argue you would want him over any single QB taken in 2018 and 2019.
Not every QB. Lamar Jackson says hello.
RE: RE: DJ would probably go around where he would have last season
He didnt go 17 last season there smarty pants and of course you knew that.
I know the Giants are in a separate
universe with some of you. But they represent a real life NFL team with real life scouts who loved Jones, and took him at 6. That means, Jones went 6th. That means, Jones WENT 6TH. Thus, he was considered a top 6 talent by at least one NFL team.
17
Well one team definitely couldn't wait until #17 to pick him so they pulled him up to #6.
I think it would break like this:
Burrow
Herbert
Tua
Love
Jones
Fromm
There is no universe where Jones goes behind Love, and if you're assuming health for Tua, he's at WORST the #2 QB in the class, possibly #1, but definitely not behind Herbert. He's likely ahead of Herbert right now and that's WITH health questions.
And Fromm doesn't even belong on your list. He's really in the next tier of prospects. As it is, Love is already a cut below the top prospects and then Fromm is a another decent step down from there.
I would say it would go more like this:
Burrow
Tua
Jones
Herbert
Love
I don’t like Love, but there are a lot of evaluators who do. Possibly more so than they did Jones last year. And Herbert vs Tua is really a personal preference. Give me the big arm physically imposing guy over the smaller more fragile guy 9 times out of 10. Like I said above, if Jones were in this draft, I’d take Herbert over him at 4. I wanted him to come out last year and be the guy.
So by your own caveat, we're assuming health for Tua, but you're going to still include "fragile" as a grading factor. Got it.
I'm not sure why I bothered to engage. Anyone who ranks Jordan Love ahead of Daniel Jones is not actually trying to be authentic in their assessment.
To clarify:
I would not take Love over Jones. But, like I said, there are a lot of talent evaluators who have said (and I disagree with them) there are some Patrick Mahomes-lite qualities in Love that make him appealing. Shit, Boomer Esiason even alluded to that being circulated among scouts like 2 weeks ago on his radio show.
And I stand by my POV that I would take Herbert over Tua. And if I had to choose today, which I don’t, I’d lean Herbert over Jones if I had a preference for NYG QB moving forward. That being said, Jones is our guy though and I liked what we saw last year. We all want him to build off it and improve.
Is a bit difficult since he played football at frigging Duke. Had to deep dive a bit and look into his intangibles, his training under what's his name Mccliffe and he is kind of an Eli protégé which are plussex.
As far as any of this years QB's being a 'comp' for Jones it would be
...Herbert. The similarities include frame, athletic ability, throw first mentality and also a few of the same concerns with accuracy over their careers. Although Herbert's stat line in 2019 was ideal. 67%/3500YDS/32TD/6INT/157QBR
I have Herbert as a Top 8 prospect and don't expect he'll get out of the Top 10. Teams will in fact favorably compare him to Jones and use his successes last year in formulating their decision.
While he shows some accuracy issues at times, he can also thread the needle and get it downfield with touch. He's got all the physical tools, just needs coaching to refine his mechanics and trust his instincts. I expect pro system and coaching and taking off the leash to help him realize his potential.
He would move to the head of the class for me. Now had he another year at Duke and was coming out now, the answer for me would probably be behind Burrow, Tua and Herbert,
Pick last year. But now that we have seen Jones play in the league, we know he has promise. I would take him over everyone right now simply because it’s clear he can play. It’s not clear if he will turn out to be great, but we know he can get a team some wins. And he can put points on the board. If we had a good defense I think we would be over the moon with Jones already. Having the unknown removed, that he can in fact play in the league makes him more appealing then every QB in this draft. Any one of the guys coming out could still choke at this point so Jones ranks better currently in my mind knowing what we know.
And I’ll stick with my gut as too which I think turns out to be the star of the bunch. Fromm. I think he’s legit. And I could see the Pats taking him for the value and actually going places with him this season.
I don't have a ton of strong opinions when it comes to the draft but that's one. It's a forest through the trees thing with him, yeh the tools are there, but their offense stalled when it shouldn't have stalled the last couple of years. I don't think he sees it.
The Giants would probably be all over Herbert in this draft, so I'm happy things broke like they did. Jones is better.
RE: RE: Most on this board seem to be very high on Jones
I would suggest if you asked most non Giants fans the perception is not as high/glowing as it is here on BBI.
For me personally, I look at the TDs and say, that was really impressive. But I also look at the fumbles and I say, that's really bad. To me, those things somewhat cancel each other out and what's left after removing is pretty in the middle. So I'm much more of let's wait and see.
Two comments on this:
1) Most non-giants fans didn't watch Jones' every throw or even close to it. They're basing their opinions on a combination of the predraft "analysis" and jokes made before he ever put on a Giants jersey and the fumbles. There's a reason all you hear from people who know the game (even ex-QB and coach analysts who didn't like pick) is glowing.
2) In a vacuum this is fair but it's easier to correct a fumbling problem than it is to teach a guy to throw TD's like Jones did. Statistically speaking it's far more likely that the fumbles are an anomaly than the TD's. Anecdotally, Kerry Collins once fumbled 23 times in a season then never came close to that number again. Lamar Jackson fumbled 12 times in 7 starts last year and just 9 in 16 starts this year.
Both very fair points Strahan. He certainly made a lot of impressive throws. But he also missed some too. There is a lot of potential, but some up and down like many young QBs.
Regarding correcting the fumbles, that seems to be the take by most on here. They set asunder the concerns focus on the good and automatically assume the bad will go away. I can’t diagnose the fumbles. But considering their frequency I’m going to assume it’s more than just bad luck. Pocket awareness feeling pressure, these are extremely important skills for a QB and I have no idea how teachable all that is. It’s also possible if he starts changing what he’s focusing on to pressure rather than field, other things could suffer. We just don’t know.
My point is, I’ll take the good as a very encouraging sign of potential, have caution for the bad, and otherwise accept that we’re all going to have to wait and see.
Maaaybe Tua because the intangible package there is absolutely amazing when combined with good enough tangible traits. The injury stuff is the wildcard here.
Burrow
Herbert
Tua
Love
Jones
Fromm
If we assume someone doesn’t jump the NYG for Herbert at 3, I would agree.
1. Burrow
2. Tua
3. Herbert (this year hurt his stock a little bit but the giants still really liked him)
4. Jones
5. Love
Burrow
Herbert
Tua
Love
Jones
Fromm
There is no universe where Jones goes behind Love, and if you're assuming health for Tua, he's at WORST the #2 QB in the class, possibly #1, but definitely not behind Herbert. He's likely ahead of Herbert right now and that's WITH health questions.
And Fromm doesn't even belong on your list. He's really in the next tier of prospects. As it is, Love is already a cut below the top prospects and then Fromm is a another decent step down from there.
I would say it would go more like this:
Burrow
Tua
Jones
Herbert
Love
Burrow
Herbert
Tua
Love
Jones
Fromm
Still pissed at no Darnold?
Quote:
I think it would break like this:
Burrow
Herbert
Tua
Love
Jones
Fromm
There is no universe where Jones goes behind Love, and if you're assuming health for Tua, he's at WORST the #2 QB in the class, possibly #1, but definitely not behind Herbert. He's likely ahead of Herbert right now and that's WITH health questions.
And Fromm doesn't even belong on your list. He's really in the next tier of prospects. As it is, Love is already a cut below the top prospects and then Fromm is a another decent step down from there.
I would say it would go more like this:
Burrow
Tua
Jones
Herbert
Love
I don’t like Love, but there are a lot of evaluators who do. Possibly more so than they did Jones last year. And Herbert vs Tua is really a personal preference. Give me the big arm physically imposing guy over the smaller more fragile guy 9 times out of 10. Like I said above, if Jones were in this draft, I’d take Herbert over him at 4. I wanted him to come out last year and be the guy.
Quote:
I think it would break like this:
Burrow
Herbert
Tua
Love
Jones
Fromm
Still pissed at no Darnold?
No.
If Jones can clean that up & it’s a huge if, he will be a very good QB for us and worth the 6th pick.
It would have been really easy for them to go through last season with Eli and take someone from Burrow, Tua or Herbert this year. They also could have waited to 17 to take Jones, the fact that they grabbed him at 6 shows he was 100% their guy.
And believe me, teams compare players to next years classes, especially when making franchise altering decisions such as the next QB.
It would have been really easy for them to go through last season with Eli and take someone from Burrow, Tua or Herbert this year. They also could have waited to 17 to take Jones, the fact that they grabbed him at 6 shows he was 100% their guy.
And believe me, teams compare players to next years classes, especially when making franchise altering decisions such as the next QB.
You sure about that regarding the next year’s crop of QB’s? Last year nobody thought highly of Burrow. And next year, you can write in #1 right now (Lawrence) and maybe even #2 (Justin Fields). If I was drafting #1 this year and those 2 were available, I’m taking Lawrence over any of the 2020 guys.
No agree. No doubt. Everyone fell in love with him during his freshman year. That might have been his peak.
Quote:
It works both ways too, a lot of people wanted to wait for Fromm last year, but his value tanked over the last year.
No agree. No doubt. Everyone fell in love with him during his freshman year. That might have been his peak.
** No I agree **
+1 ... anyone who would take an unknown over what we saw last year is nuts ... or just biased against jones ... we got our guy for the next 15 years.
Quote:
And felt like he was their guy, so if we didn't draft a QB this past year, we may still wind up with him in this draft.
It would have been really easy for them to go through last season with Eli and take someone from Burrow, Tua or Herbert this year. They also could have waited to 17 to take Jones, the fact that they grabbed him at 6 shows he was 100% their guy.
And believe me, teams compare players to next years classes, especially when making franchise altering decisions such as the next QB.
You sure about that regarding the next year’s crop of QB’s? Last year nobody thought highly of Burrow. And next year, you can write in #1 right now (Lawrence) and maybe even #2 (Justin Fields). If I was drafting #1 this year and those 2 were available, I’m taking Lawrence over any of the 2020 guys.
They look. Things change and sometimes just because someone isn't on our radars, doesn't mean they are not on theirs. This years vs next years crop isn't the ultimate decider, but they 100% take it as a piece of information.
For me personally, I look at the TDs and say, that was really impressive. But I also look at the fumbles and I say, that's really bad. To me, those things somewhat cancel each other out and what's left after removing is pretty in the middle. So I'm much more of let's wait and see.
There were write-ups that said he wasn't very good with the deep passing game. He throws a beautiful deep ball.
For me personally, I look at the TDs and say, that was really impressive. But I also look at the fumbles and I say, that's really bad. To me, those things somewhat cancel each other out and what's left after removing is pretty in the middle. So I'm much more of let's wait and see.
It’s a very fair take. I’m hopeful he gets better coaching going forward, because the offense cannot function if he continues to fumble like he is.
For me personally, I look at the TDs and say, that was really impressive. But I also look at the fumbles and I say, that's really bad. To me, those things somewhat cancel each other out and what's left after removing is pretty in the middle. So I'm much more of let's wait and see.
I don’t see the TDs and turnovers canceling each other out. I look at the passes he makes and the 4 TD games without a good OL and with limited weapons as showing he has incredible upside. His turnovers are concerning, but he’s a smart kid and I am confident he can be coached out of it. If he improves dramatically on that, he gets a competent OL, and some weapons, we are set at QB for 15 years. If the turnovers don’t improve, he’s another Jameis Winston
Murray is such a unique player and has always been in a system tailored to his talents. But for the sake of this discussion, I'll leave him out.
Burrow/Tua/Haskins played exclusively with 4 and 5 star guys. Their weapons were dynamic and abundant and protection was no less than ideal. Haskins wasn't presented with a fair situation for success in his rookie year. That said he showed very poorly.
Herbert didn't have the ammunition those guys had but sat behind one of the 5 best OLs in college football.
Love and Jones both had low end talent around them in college. Jones showed very well in a number of areas. Ball security is a well documented area for improvement.
Rankings (leaving Murray out)
Size: Herbert, Jones, Love, Burrow, Haskins, Tua
Athleticism: Herbert, Jones, Burrow, Love, Tua, Haskins
Arm strength: Herbert, Love, Haskins, Tua, Jones, Burrow...but none of the bottom three are in the Fromm (concerning) territory.
Accuracy: Burrow, Jones, Tua, Haskins, Love, Herbert
Fluidity/accuracy on the move: Herbert, Burrow, Jones, Love, Tua, Haskins
Intelligence: All seem to be very high end except Haskins.
Intangibles: There is not a red flag among them in the character department. Tua/Herbert seem to be the most outspoken in terms of vocal leadership. But as w learned with Eli, that may be an overrated trait.
Pocket presence: Tough to say for Tua, Burrow since they've only dealt with optimal conditions so far. I am unsure about Herbert. The other three clearly need development.
My summary would be to put them in the following buckets.
High risk, high reward:
-Love - Positives: gifted thrower, fluid mover, big/strong kid. Negatives: Was 2019 purely due to the lack of talent around him?
-Herbert - Positives: physically, he's near ideal. Maybe a hair less than Josh Allen in all departments. Negatives: Accuracy. And does he play conservatively and perhaps without the kind of swagger that many great QBs have (does he have a Ryan Tannehill personality?).
Tua - Positives: Reportedly a great kid in every possible way. Well schooled QB. Good fluid mover. Decisive thrower. Negatives: Size a tad below average. But in blinking red lights, is his durability a major problem. I fear that the answer is yes.
Safe:
Burrow/Jones: Both should be good players. Both bright, athletic, competitive young QBs, one who has had all the advantages one all the disadvantages in terms of surrounding cast. That'll change for Burrow in his rookie year. Still, I'd bet both will have good/solid careers.
Bust:
Haskins: The arm is pretty. Errortless, strong and accurate. But the rest of the package is concerning. Questions abound in the areas of intelligence, fitness, athleticism.
I think he'd be picked #4 overall, no question, maybe higher. I think Barrow would still be picked ahead of him but I think he'd go ahead of Herbert or Tua.
I think he'd be picked #4 overall, no question, maybe higher. I think Barrow would still be picked ahead of him but I think he'd go ahead of Herbert or Tua.
If someone said they'd take Herbert over Jones, I'd get it. Any of the others? I don't see it.
Tua - somewhat undersized and definitely injury prone
Love - boom/bust
Burrow - one hit wonder and it happened with the ideal situation
+1. And I love Tua.
For me personally, I look at the TDs and say, that was really impressive. But I also look at the fumbles and I say, that's really bad. To me, those things somewhat cancel each other out and what's left after removing is pretty in the middle. So I'm much more of let's wait and see.
Two comments on this:
1) Most non-giants fans didn't watch Jones' every throw or even close to it. They're basing their opinions on a combination of the predraft "analysis" and jokes made before he ever put on a Giants jersey and the fumbles. There's a reason all you hear from people who know the game (even ex-QB and coach analysts who didn't like pick) is glowing.
2) In a vacuum this is fair but it's easier to correct a fumbling problem than it is to teach a guy to throw TD's like Jones did. Statistically speaking it's far more likely that the fumbles are an anomaly than the TD's. Anecdotally, Kerry Collins once fumbled 23 times in a season then never came close to that number again. Lamar Jackson fumbled 12 times in 7 starts last year and just 9 in 16 starts this year.
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In comment 14851193 The_Boss said:
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I think it would break like this:
Burrow
Herbert
Tua
Love
Jones
Fromm
There is no universe where Jones goes behind Love, and if you're assuming health for Tua, he's at WORST the #2 QB in the class, possibly #1, but definitely not behind Herbert. He's likely ahead of Herbert right now and that's WITH health questions.
And Fromm doesn't even belong on your list. He's really in the next tier of prospects. As it is, Love is already a cut below the top prospects and then Fromm is a another decent step down from there.
I would say it would go more like this:
Burrow
Tua
Jones
Herbert
Love
I don’t like Love, but there are a lot of evaluators who do. Possibly more so than they did Jones last year. And Herbert vs Tua is really a personal preference. Give me the big arm physically imposing guy over the smaller more fragile guy 9 times out of 10. Like I said above, if Jones were in this draft, I’d take Herbert over him at 4. I wanted him to come out last year and be the guy.
So by your own caveat, we're assuming health for Tua, but you're going to still include "fragile" as a grading factor. Got it.
I'm not sure why I bothered to engage. Anyone who ranks Jordan Love ahead of Daniel Jones is not actually trying to be authentic in their assessment.
Quite honestly, through the years it has been pretty apparent that the "media scouts" really have no clue what they are doing or how to rank these guys prior to getting to the NFL. There are too many variables to consider and ranking guys just based on arm talent or college production really is a exercise in futility.
I mean, literally everyone on earth was laughing at the Giants when we took Jones. As of now you could argue you would want him over any single QB taken in 2018 and 2019.
to me this is the simplest hypothetical exercise one can run in all of sports. Any QB would be better on a better team. It's really as simple as that. Bad QBs look a little less bad. Good QBs look a little better and great QBs with a lot of talent become legends.
Outside of Tua's repeated injuries, and Burrow getting beaten out at Ohio State then being ordinary at LSU in year 1 before the Saints coordinator sparked year 2 and for better or worse, Herbert being = Josh Allen projection wise...
Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?
He didnt go 17 last season there smarty pants and of course you knew that.
I know the Giants are in a separate universe with some of you. But they represent a real life NFL team with real life scouts who loved Jones, and took him at 6. That means, Jones went 6th. That means, Jones WENT 6TH. Thus, he was considered a top 6 talent by at least one NFL team.
Quite honestly, through the years it has been pretty apparent that the "media scouts" really have no clue what they are doing or how to rank these guys prior to getting to the NFL. There are too many variables to consider and ranking guys just based on arm talent or college production really is a exercise in futility.
I mean, literally everyone on earth was laughing at the Giants when we took Jones. As of now you could argue you would want him over any single QB taken in 2018 and 2019.
Not every QB. Lamar Jackson says hello.
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at around #17.
He didnt go 17 last season there smarty pants and of course you knew that.
I know the Giants are in a separate
universe with some of you. But they represent a real life NFL team with real life scouts who loved Jones, and took him at 6. That means, Jones went 6th. That means, Jones WENT 6TH. Thus, he was considered a top 6 talent by at least one NFL team.
Well one team definitely couldn't wait until #17 to pick him so they pulled him up to #6.
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In comment 14851230 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14851193 The_Boss said:
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I think it would break like this:
Burrow
Herbert
Tua
Love
Jones
Fromm
There is no universe where Jones goes behind Love, and if you're assuming health for Tua, he's at WORST the #2 QB in the class, possibly #1, but definitely not behind Herbert. He's likely ahead of Herbert right now and that's WITH health questions.
And Fromm doesn't even belong on your list. He's really in the next tier of prospects. As it is, Love is already a cut below the top prospects and then Fromm is a another decent step down from there.
I would say it would go more like this:
Burrow
Tua
Jones
Herbert
Love
I don’t like Love, but there are a lot of evaluators who do. Possibly more so than they did Jones last year. And Herbert vs Tua is really a personal preference. Give me the big arm physically imposing guy over the smaller more fragile guy 9 times out of 10. Like I said above, if Jones were in this draft, I’d take Herbert over him at 4. I wanted him to come out last year and be the guy.
So by your own caveat, we're assuming health for Tua, but you're going to still include "fragile" as a grading factor. Got it.
I'm not sure why I bothered to engage. Anyone who ranks Jordan Love ahead of Daniel Jones is not actually trying to be authentic in their assessment.
To clarify:
I would not take Love over Jones. But, like I said, there are a lot of talent evaluators who have said (and I disagree with them) there are some Patrick Mahomes-lite qualities in Love that make him appealing. Shit, Boomer Esiason even alluded to that being circulated among scouts like 2 weeks ago on his radio show.
And I stand by my POV that I would take Herbert over Tua. And if I had to choose today, which I don’t, I’d lean Herbert over Jones if I had a preference for NYG QB moving forward. That being said, Jones is our guy though and I liked what we saw last year. We all want him to build off it and improve.
I have Herbert as a Top 8 prospect and don't expect he'll get out of the Top 10. Teams will in fact favorably compare him to Jones and use his successes last year in formulating their decision.
Not sure what the pros would think
Love
DJ
Burrow/Herbert (not sure the order)
Love
DJ
Burrow/Herbert (not sure the order)
Interesting...I was taking shit about ranking Love ahead of Jones earlier today.
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Tua
Love
DJ
Burrow/Herbert (not sure the order)
Interesting...I was taking shit about ranking Love ahead of Jones earlier today.
However, I was much higher on Herbert than Dave and not as bullish on Tua to be fair.
But to answer the actual question:
Probably Burrow, Tua, Herbert, Jones, Love, Fromm.
And I’ll stick with my gut as too which I think turns out to be the star of the bunch. Fromm. I think he’s legit. And I could see the Pats taking him for the value and actually going places with him this season.
The Giants would probably be all over Herbert in this draft, so I'm happy things broke like they did. Jones is better.
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I would suggest if you asked most non Giants fans the perception is not as high/glowing as it is here on BBI.
For me personally, I look at the TDs and say, that was really impressive. But I also look at the fumbles and I say, that's really bad. To me, those things somewhat cancel each other out and what's left after removing is pretty in the middle. So I'm much more of let's wait and see.
Two comments on this:
1) Most non-giants fans didn't watch Jones' every throw or even close to it. They're basing their opinions on a combination of the predraft "analysis" and jokes made before he ever put on a Giants jersey and the fumbles. There's a reason all you hear from people who know the game (even ex-QB and coach analysts who didn't like pick) is glowing.
2) In a vacuum this is fair but it's easier to correct a fumbling problem than it is to teach a guy to throw TD's like Jones did. Statistically speaking it's far more likely that the fumbles are an anomaly than the TD's. Anecdotally, Kerry Collins once fumbled 23 times in a season then never came close to that number again. Lamar Jackson fumbled 12 times in 7 starts last year and just 9 in 16 starts this year.
Both very fair points Strahan. He certainly made a lot of impressive throws. But he also missed some too. There is a lot of potential, but some up and down like many young QBs.
Regarding correcting the fumbles, that seems to be the take by most on here. They set asunder the concerns focus on the good and automatically assume the bad will go away. I can’t diagnose the fumbles. But considering their frequency I’m going to assume it’s more than just bad luck. Pocket awareness feeling pressure, these are extremely important skills for a QB and I have no idea how teachable all that is. It’s also possible if he starts changing what he’s focusing on to pressure rather than field, other things could suffer. We just don’t know.
My point is, I’ll take the good as a very encouraging sign of potential, have caution for the bad, and otherwise accept that we’re all going to have to wait and see.
Maaaybe Tua because the intangible package there is absolutely amazing when combined with good enough tangible traits. The injury stuff is the wildcard here.
He's definitely above Herbert in my book.