An honest(and accurate) film breakdown of Wirfs

I remember his evaluation of Will Hernandez.

is worrisome.

He is definitely not Ereck Flowers but he plays tight and coiled in pass pro as Cosell eloquently stated . Zeirline says he does not convert that athleticism in pass pro well either.

Meanwhile you can see Wills point guard background show up in a big way. Awareness, vision, anticipation and being able to process what's in front of him quickly.

Wills is the consummate 'Ozzie Newsome' pick . A guy on the field who clearly gets it done and shows natural football instinct to play the game at a high level.

Becton is an absolute freak who isn't as smart as Wills nor as technically proficient but is so ridiculously gifted both in size and speed. You can see with better coaching how much he improved. He just annihilates people. So impressive and rare.

In comment 14851945 The_Boss said:

Quote:

It should be the expectation that whomever we draft at that spot becomes a star, perennial pro bowler, potential All Pro, etc. Do any of these OT’s, Wirfs included, look to be of that ilk? Personally, I don’t see it. I see that with guys like Brown, Okudah, Young, Ruggs, Lamb, maybe Jeudy. (To be fair, I don’t see it with Simmons either). Pick a star Dave. Or get out.

All 4 have enough collective elite traits to be that player. Its just the risk of each one gets higher in this order: Wills, Becton, Wirfs, Thomas. With Wills being the safest. Even Jackson and Jones have a pretty decent shot and therefore neither get out of the middle to bottom round 1 either.

Not near worth a top ten pick in the draft. IMO.

a college OT who will be a better guard in the pros.

movement skills when run blocking. I do think that he's a very safe pick, who likely can play either OT spot.

I love Wirfs' run blocking, and think that Barkley would have a field day running behind him. I also think that he typically does fine in pass protection, but that he sometimes overcommits on his slide step to protect against an outside rush and leaves himself vulnerable to inside moves; that's typically when he gets beat.

I really have issues with Thomas's footwork, and he seems to sometimes lean from the waist ala Flowers, which scares the crap out of me.

Becton is the least polished 1st rounder that I can imagine. But his strength and footwork suggest that he likely has the highest upside of them all. He's also the most likely of them to bust, in my estimation.

I think they are all talented, and all top 15 players, but I think it's a "pick your poison" choice here. I'd suggest that they all have their weaknesses.

I keep going back and forth about whom I'd like us to land, but I'm hoping that we take one of them after a trade down, and that Columbo can develop whomever we choose into a top LT after a year at RT.

In comment 14851996 yatqb said:

Quote:

movement skills when run blocking. I do think that he's a very safe pick, who likely can play either OT spot. I love Wirfs' run blocking, and think that Barkley would have a field day running behind him. I also think that he typically does fine in pass protection, but that he sometimes overcommits on his slide step to protect against an outside rush and leaves himself vulnerable to inside moves; that's typically when he gets beat. I really have issues with Thomas's footwork, and he seems to sometimes lean from the waist ala Flowers, which scares the crap out of me. Becton is the least polished 1st rounder that I can imagine. But his strength and footwork suggest that he likely has the highest upside of them all. He's also the most likely of them to bust, in my estimation. I think they are all talented, and all top 15 players, but I think it's a "pick your poison" choice here. I'd suggest that they all have their weaknesses. I keep going back and forth about whom I'd like us to land, but I'm hoping that we take one of them after a trade down, and that Columbo can develop whomever we choose into a top LT after a year at RT.

Good post.

I think Wills offers the best combo to help Barkley and Jones. Jones with time is lethal. Barkley with half decent blocking can do the rest. Give me Wills.


Wills - ( New Window )

And I get what you're saying about him, Wirfs has some issue in space. My biggest take from that though is Gross Matos...we'd be lucky to get him at 36.

In comment 14851932 Torrag said:

Quote:

Have any actual opinions of your own? or you just parrot others and swallow it whole?

It shows that he understands that he is a novice.

If I need medical advice should I listen to my doctor or think for myself?

All opinions are not equal. Some are more informed than others. An opinion is only as good as the source. Couts aren't infallible but I'll take the opinion of a pro scout over you.

In comment 14851923 Torrag said:

Quote:

It was the best defense and players he faced all season which makes it best simulation of what he'll face consistently at the NFL level. You thought someone would use the North Texas tape? Why would anyone do that? Gheesh.

I recall people using this same asinine excuse with Ronnie Stanley and the Clemson game to critique him. (Not that ppf is the end all-be all, but they just rated his 2019 season as the best pass blocking season since they started grading.) Using one game (good or bad) is a horrific way to grade any player. I get that some people don't like Wirfs and will look for anyone/anything to back them up, but the idea that Wirfs can' play in space is just foolish. I watched 6 full games of Wirfs this season and never once saw him beaten on the outside.

Also, moving him to guard would not be taking advantage of his greatest strength, which is ridiculous athleticism for a man that size.

He's beaten to the outside multiple times in that one 10 minute clip session and I've seen it in other games as well. Not a lot...but enough. I've watched as much video as I can find on all the top OT's. I said the first week Wirfs has some core stiffness, footwork and balance issues resulting from it and some issues anticipating games and stunts. It's obvious. He uses his broad base and girth to wall guys off but that's only going to get you to step one in the NFL. The rest is technique based and his is inconsistent.

I WANT TO MAKE THIS CLEAR...Wirfs is a good OL prospect. He's a Top 15ish pick in most Drafts. It just so happens THIS IS THE BEST OT CLASS IN MANY YEARS AND THERE ARE BETTER PLAYERS THAN HIM AT THE POSITION. I am not saying he isn't a good player. He is. We could pick him and I believe he would improve our line and be a good player for us. Just not the best one available.

...as the best one. Cossell has Wills as the best as do many others(they all have their favorites as do we)and frankly he has a better track record than dave that I've followed for years. Jeremiah has Becton. Everyone misses.

I would actually prefer to hear what you guys think. I read the draft pundits. I already know what they think. I don't need to enter into conversations here to get that stuff. It's much more interesting to get the fanbase perspective. Why bother posting someone elses ideas.

...that has shitty footwork?

In comment 14851967 The_Boss said:

Quote:

In comment 14851964 The_Boss said And so I don’t get accused of overlooking him, to me, Simmons not having a defined position is a disqualified in my opinion. I’m not spending a 4 on a guy who might project to rover or FS.

Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but didn't Troy Polamalu basically have a free reign in the Steelers' system? Troy wasn't as big as Simmons, but he did just about everything back there.

In comment 14852028 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

Quote:

In comment 14851923 Torrag said: Quote: It was the best defense and players he faced all season which makes it best simulation of what he'll face consistently at the NFL level. You thought someone would use the North Texas tape? Why would anyone do that? Gheesh. I recall people using this same asinine excuse with Ronnie Stanley and the Clemson game to critique him. (Not that ppf is the end all-be all, but they just rated his 2019 season as the best pass blocking season since they started grading.) Using one game (good or bad) is a horrific way to grade any player. I get that some people don't like Wirfs and will look for anyone/anything to back them up, but the idea that Wirfs can' play in space is just foolish. I watched 6 full games of Wirfs this season and never once saw him beaten on the outside. Also, moving him to guard would not be taking advantage of his greatest strength, which is ridiculous athleticism for a man that size.

Wirfs has upside but is more athlete than technician. You like athleticism and power but your LT needs to be a technician. Consistency is absolutely critical at that position. Wills combines all 3. He literally also has point Gaurd traits instead of wrestling traits (which lend themselves better to OG). Peripheral vision, anticipation, footwork ....all there for Wills.

Becton is more prototypical for LT and shows great potential for improvement vs. the less ideal coaching and system he played in Louisville.

In comment 14852029 Torrag said:

Quote:

He's beaten to the outside multiple times in that one 10 minute clip session and I've seen it in other games as well. Not a lot...but enough. I've watched as much video as I can find on all the top OT's. I said the first week Wirfs has some core stiffness, footwork and balance issues resulting from it and some issues anticipating games and stunts. It's obvious. He uses his broad base and girth to wall guys off but that's only going to get you to step one in the NFL. The rest is technique based and his is inconsistent. I WANT TO MAKE THIS CLEAR...Wirfs is a good OL prospect. He's a Top 15ish pick in most Drafts. It just so happens THIS IS THE BEST OT CLASS IN MANY YEARS AND THERE ARE BETTER PLAYERS THAN HIM AT THE POSITION. I am not saying he isn't a good player. He is. We could pick him and I believe he would improve our line and be a good player for us. Just not the best one available.

This is good overall perspective.

But he may only turn out to be an OK pass protector. Likely an upgrade but not necessarily pro bowl level.

A guy who can get the job done there with some really nice blocking but also sometimes exposed by stunts/blitzes and the fast twitchy guys screaming off the edge.

We have 2 other guys that project much closer to shutdown status in pass pro and that Wills or Becton. Wills combination or intnangibles + tangibles are just too good. Not really one really big flag. Such a clean prospect. Bectons upside may be greater but he is more raw and doesn't quite seem to have quite the same character, vision or football IQ traits that Wills has.

Not to say Bectons traits for the most part aren't great they are and in some areas superior to many who have come out in the last few years. But Wills has special ability in so many of the intangible areas that translate so well to pro bowl level pass pro when combined with very good (not necessarily rare but still very good) physical attributes plus superb footwork, he is the best overall.

In comment 14852028 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

Quote:

In comment 14851923 Torrag said: Quote: It was the best defense and players he faced all season which makes it best simulation of what he'll face consistently at the NFL level. You thought someone would use the North Texas tape? Why would anyone do that? Gheesh. I recall people using this same asinine excuse with Ronnie Stanley and the Clemson game to critique him. (Not that ppf is the end all-be all, but they just rated his 2019 season as the best pass blocking season since they started grading.) Using one game (good or bad) is a horrific way to grade any player. I get that some people don't like Wirfs and will look for anyone/anything to back them up, but the idea that Wirfs can' play in space is just foolish. I watched 6 full games of Wirfs this season and never once saw him beaten on the outside. Also, moving him to guard would not be taking advantage of his greatest strength, which is ridiculous athleticism for a man that size.

Awareness, anticipation and vision also important at that spot because of the spacing. Wills is tremendous at adjusting on the fly to what develops around him because of this , Wirfs not nearly as good.

appreciate and respect your posts/breakdown, but to say Wills “will probably always be better” than Wirfs is complete bullshit. These guys haven’t stepped onto a NFL field yet. These guys haven’t gotten paid millions of dollars yet. You don’t know anything about how they are gonna react to the NFL. You have no idea how they are gonna be as players.

why are you laughing at someone having technique issues as if to say every single prospect out of college has incredible footwork/technique? That’s called coaching. You are acting like nobody can get better once they get into the NFL.

Love the reports by Dave Te. But go back and read his glowing reports on Bisnowaty. He sounded All World and his was sooo bad.

The Wills fans are by far the most annoying. He will never be a good left tackle in the NFL, he struggled against the good players and was blown away on plays. He is great for the Giants 2nd round pick, for the 4th pick, never, and here is a hint, he will not ever be the Giants pick at 4, not in your dreams.

Tell us Wills worst two games last year.

In comment 14852030 Torrag said:

Quote:

...as the best one. Cossell has Wills as the best as do many others(they all have their favorites as do we)and frankly he has a better track record than dave that I've followed for years. Jeremiah has Becton. Everyone misses. I would actually prefer to hear what you guys think. I read the draft pundits. I already know what they think. I don't need to enter into conversations here to get that stuff. It's much more interesting to get the fanbase perspective. Why bother posting someone elses ideas.

I find it kind of funny that you are parroting draft people to make your argument, showing a YouTube video of another guy sharing his opinion, and then say I would prefer to hear what you guys think.

To top it off when people tell you what they think you treat them like they are idiots and insult scouts who don’t agree with you. Wirf is not an OG and will probably be very good. So will Wills maybe. Becton also. Thomas is clearly the safest pick tho. If you want to talk tape that is. I mean that is what you care about then Thomas should be your guy.

But Gettleman is hog headed.

as “honest”, as if those who prefer Wirfs are somehow being dishonest.

There are plenty of well regarded analysts who think both Wills and Wirfs will struggle a bit in pass pro, and are bette run blockers at this stage. Draft is all about projection - which guy do you think can best be coached up to being a very good OT.

Personally, I like Wirfs, he has a nasty disposition that I really like. Wills has some of thet too. I think either would be a good pick, but not at 4. Trade down.

In comment 14852130 XBRONX said:

Quote:

Love the reports by Dave Te. But go back and read his glowing reports on Bisnowaty. He sounded All World and his was sooo bad.

Yep, and he wasn't crazy about DJ either. My point wasn't that scouts like Sy and Dave Te aren't infallible. No one really knows, but when I see professionals split between the Wills/Wirfs/Thomas then its obviously a close decision. Just sitting at home watching a youtube video, and then claiming "facts", is ridiculous. Its a preference at best, and everyone has their own just as valid preferences.

I personally want an OT at #4. Based on the paid professionals, I will be happy with either of those 3 players. My preference would be Wirfs because I love the Iowa program for OL development, and his measurables are great, but what do I really know

at the combine, well enough that people after the combine said he answered the questions people had about him.

I really do think it boils down to what the Chargers want to do. Do they want an OT, a QB or Simmons.

will get an answer about Wills worst two games last year. Common to make a comment here and than disappear,never to answer.

In comment 14852200 Section331 said:

Quote:

as “honest”, as if those who prefer Wirfs are somehow being dishonest. There are plenty of well regarded analysts who think both Wills and Wirfs will struggle a bit in pass pro, and are bette run blockers at this stage. Draft is all about projection - which guy do you think can best be coached up to being a very good OT. Personally, I like Wirfs, he has a nasty disposition that I really like. Wills has some of thet too. I think either would be a good pick, but not at 4. Trade down.

Honest "and accurate", don't forget about accurate - LOL. Because you know, it is one game on youtube so what more is there possibly to know?

In comment 14852194 Amtoft said:

Quote:

In comment 14852030 Torrag said: Quote: ...as the best one. Cossell has Wills as the best as do many others(they all have their favorites as do we)and frankly he has a better track record than dave that I've followed for years. Jeremiah has Becton. Everyone misses. I would actually prefer to hear what you guys think. I read the draft pundits. I already know what they think. I don't need to enter into conversations here to get that stuff. It's much more interesting to get the fanbase perspective. Why bother posting someone elses ideas. I find it kind of funny that you are parroting draft people to make your argument, showing a YouTube video of another guy sharing his opinion, and then say I would prefer to hear what you guys think. To top it off when people tell you what they think you treat them like they are idiots and insult scouts who don’t agree with you. Wirf is not an OG and will probably be very good. So will Wills maybe. Becton also. Thomas is clearly the safest pick tho. If you want to talk tape that is. I mean that is what you care about then Thomas should be your guy.

Low EQ.

I think as a board we have dismissed Thomas greatly. Could it be that he’s basically the best overall Tackle in this class?

In comment 14852199 jeff57 said:

Quote:

But Gettleman is hog headed.

Lol that may be the core issue leading him to Wirfs in this case. Though Wills is very strong and explosive in his own right.

In comment 14852235 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

I think as a board we have dismissed Thomas greatly. Could it be that he’s basically the best overall Tackle in this class?

Yes, very much so.

Not that there aren't some decent football opinions on BBI, but I think that credibility dissipates pretty quickly when you start talking about offensive line play and clearly when it moves to projecting OL play at another level.

In comment 14852209 BigBlueCane said:

Quote:

at the combine, well enough that people after the combine said he answered the questions people had about him. I really do think it boils down to what the Chargers want to do. Do they want an OT, a QB or Simmons.

I agree Becton or Wills will be the better pick but almost every year we get a few clues about who the Gmen really like. We've heard multiple reports about Wirfs and maybe a one off here and there about anyone else.

This doesn't count opinions thrown out there on who we SHOULD draft but analysts coming back saying they are hearing DG loves Wirfs.

to fall to you at 4. Wirfs looks to be a good RT, so 4 is a bit too high for him.

In comment 14852242 MeadowlandsMike said:

Quote:

This doesn't count opinions thrown out there on who we SHOULD draft but analysts coming back saying they are hearing DG loves Wirfs.

Vacchiano is also usually pretty good with this kind of thing in particular and he's been saying it repeatedly.

In comment 14852279 Strahan91 said:

Quote:

In comment 14852242 MeadowlandsMike said: Quote: This doesn't count opinions thrown out there on who we SHOULD draft but analysts coming back saying they are hearing DG loves Wirfs. Vacchiano is also usually pretty good with this kind of thing in particular and he's been saying it repeatedly.

Vacchiano has over the years been one of the most if not the top inside beat guy.

He's saying Wirfs and that is a bit worrisome. Because we could end up taking the B tackle (but maybe a grade A OG) instead of the A or A+ Left Tackle in Wills or Becton.

In comment 14852296 MeadowlandsMike said:

Quote:

In comment 14852279 Strahan91 said: Quote: In comment 14852242 MeadowlandsMike said: Quote: This doesn't count opinions thrown out there on who we SHOULD draft but analysts coming back saying they are hearing DG loves Wirfs. Vacchiano is also usually pretty good with this kind of thing in particular and he's been saying it repeatedly. Vacchiano has over the years been one of the most if not the top inside beat guy. He's saying Wirfs and that is a bit worrisome. Because we could end up taking the B tackle (but maybe a grade A OG) instead of the A or A+ Left Tackle in Wills or Becton.

Or Wills and Becton would be the B tackle and Wirfs the A or A+... I love it when people like a player and they act like they are experts on the matter. My favorite thing to do also.

In comment 14852299 Amtoft said:

Quote:

In comment 14852296 MeadowlandsMike said: Quote: In comment 14852279 Strahan91 said: Quote: In comment 14852242 MeadowlandsMike said: Quote: This doesn't count opinions thrown out there on who we SHOULD draft but analysts coming back saying they are hearing DG loves Wirfs. Vacchiano is also usually pretty good with this kind of thing in particular and he's been saying it repeatedly. Vacchiano has over the years been one of the most if not the top inside beat guy. He's saying Wirfs and that is a bit worrisome. Because we could end up taking the B tackle (but maybe a grade A OG) instead of the A or A+ Left Tackle in Wills or Becton. Or Wills and Becton would be the B tackle and Wirfs the A or A+... I love it when people like a player and they act like they are experts on the matter. My favorite thing to do also.

Lol I would love to be wrong Am. But the film shows for all the athleticism very tight and coiled movement when it comes to pass pro. He got away with it in College because he can dominate on that ridiculous athleticism alone but this will be exposed on the NFL level. Cosell and Tucker and Jeremiah all seem to have the same take.

Yet with Wills I see the Point Gaurd background coming out which is excellent for the tackle position in terms of quick footwork, peripheral vision, awareness and anticipation. Love the sum of the parts with him the intangible/tangible package coming together for an amazing LT prospect with very little holes in his game.

now have Wills, Wirfs, and sometimes Becton, and I won't be surprised if Thomas goes first out of them all.

Thomas has pretty great athleticism (not as much as Wills), but he has a great size for the position, incredible length, large hands...he's got a great body for the position, enough really good tape, is nasty vs the run and shows enough competence in the pass game to project to a very good LT in the NFL.

At this stage, I kind of prefer him, but I'm still early in my evaluation. I do definitely like him over Wirfs, even though I can acknowledge that Wirfs may end up being an absolutely dominant OG in the NFL.

I really wish Becton had done more at the combine than just 40 and bench. There's definitely less to go on with fewer visits and no Pro Days this year.

But I want to say, Torrag, I'm glad you posted this. For my money, nobody I've seen on YouTube breaks down OL play better than Voch Lombardi. And he is a former OL himself, he understands the techniques, fundamentals, and footwork necessary to be successful and does a great job communicating that to his audience. I do weight his opinion over a LOT of guys specifically when it comes to OL play.

Nice post.Also Brett Kollman did nice comparison of Wills and Wirfs.

You miss the point. I'm not. I used that video and many others. The commentary is ancillary, it came with the video. All you need to do is watch and think.

Try the second one because it's obvious the opinions I've shared on this site are my own. I've arrived at them by watching college football and what video is available post season.

They've both played ball a long time. They've both received coaching at a high level to this point. One guy is far and away a better player at the same position. Why would it dramatically change? It rarely does. I don't want a player with problems at #4. I want the real deal. The best guy.

if we want a LT, Thomas is probably the 'safest' bet. Hopefully we would get him after a trade-down.

In comment 14852316 MeadowlandsMike said:

Quote:

In comment 14852299 Amtoft said: Quote: In comment 14852296 MeadowlandsMike said: Quote: In comment 14852279 Strahan91 said: Quote: In comment 14852242 MeadowlandsMike said: Quote: This doesn't count opinions thrown out there on who we SHOULD draft but analysts coming back saying they are hearing DG loves Wirfs. Vacchiano is also usually pretty good with this kind of thing in particular and he's been saying it repeatedly. Vacchiano has over the years been one of the most if not the top inside beat guy. He's saying Wirfs and that is a bit worrisome. Because we could end up taking the B tackle (but maybe a grade A OG) instead of the A or A+ Left Tackle in Wills or Becton. Or Wills and Becton would be the B tackle and Wirfs the A or A+... I love it when people like a player and they act like they are experts on the matter. My favorite thing to do also. Lol I would love to be wrong Am. But the film shows for all the athleticism very tight and coiled movement when it comes to pass pro. He got away with it in College because he can dominate on that ridiculous athleticism alone but this will be exposed on the NFL level. Cosell and Tucker and Jeremiah all seem to have the same take. Yet with Wills I see the Point Gaurd background coming out which is excellent for the tackle position in terms of quick footwork, peripheral vision, awareness and anticipation. Love the sum of the parts with him the intangible/tangible package coming together for an amazing LT prospect with very little holes in his game.

This is the best JerseyJoe post in awhile. Checks every box

I understand what you’re saying, but it’s kinda bullshit. “They’ve both played ball a long time”??? Everyone coming into the NFL who is a high prospect has played football for awhile, it means jack shit when you get into the NFL. Come on man. Plenty of prospects bust have been playing football their entire life. Everyone and their mother had Daniel Jones as the 5th best prospect in the draft, he went 6 overall, and looked like he was on a different planet than Dwayne Haskins, who most people said was the way way better prospect.

I guess what I’m saying is, the scouting must go beyond “oh this guy just looks way better.” If you looked at Ohio State tape of Haskins vs Jones Duke tape, and you JUST went on that evaluation, you’d probably take Haskins 100 times out of 100. Being a high draft pick, the pressure of it, the person you are, your background, work ethic, family, etc. All that shit goes into it. Ereck Flowers has all the “talent”....turns out he just didn’t really care much to get better as a player.

So if some people have Wirfs rated higher, it probably isn’t because they think he was a better college player. They like his upside to be a better NFL player. There’s a huge difference.

Apparently you don't ryan. What I'm saying is one guy is clearly better than the other and it isn't an accident or coincidence. Why? Because he gets it. His footwork, anticipation, hand usage, recovery ability are all ahead of the other player. I think he's just a better football player. Why, at the top of the Draft, would I take the one with issues to iron out? Maybe he can, then again maybe he can't...

I'm sorry but if they're picking him for his upside he doesn't belong in the top 6 picks. Not to me anyway. Which is why he's my OT #4 and should go between 12 and 15.

Again I like Wirfs but he has issues and not just one. Issues Wills doesn't have. Wills is a combination of playing at a high level in both phases vs the best college football competition, good technique and upside.

As far as Becton goes he's just a different kind of specimen. I started out with him as OT #4 and he's up to #2. He's proving he has the work ethic and mindset to exploit his off the charts physical gifts.

Thomas is the second safest as he's going to be a terrific run blocker, is battle tested vs elite competition. I like his wide base and shoulder/hip orientations at contact better than Wirfs.

In comment 14852484 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

I understand what you’re saying, but it’s kinda bullshit. “They’ve both played ball a long time”??? Everyone coming into the NFL who is a high prospect has played football for awhile, it means jack shit when you get into the NFL. Come on man. Plenty of prospects bust have been playing football their entire life. Everyone and their mother had Daniel Jones as the 5th best prospect in the draft, he went 6 overall, and looked like he was on a different planet than Dwayne Haskins, who most people said was the way way better prospect.

Wirfs had 3 years of superior coaching. Wills the same. One looks so much more natural in pass pro (Wills) the other doesn't .

Conversely, Becton did NOT have good coaching. Coaches son who apparently was not a good OL coach then saw improvement under a better coach his junior year .