An honest(and accurate) film breakdown of Wirfs

.

That's because you watch the actual football and don't rely on 'workout numbers'. Wills is a much better OT now and probably always will be.

with Daniel Jeremiah with the breaks on.

Drafting at the 4 pick or even in a trade down to 6 or 9.

A Guard? Not that high.

The 4th best OT who maybe with “some coaching” can “learn over time” to “develop” into a T?

Hard pass with our 4 pick.

That was Wirfs worst game of the season, by far. You want to form your opinion of him based on that, then by all means, go forth.

P.S. Sean Spencer did a hell of a job adjusting and halftime game planning.

...up to #2. Why? I've charted his progress in reshaping his body. He's steadily lowered his weight and improved his body fat for three consecutive years and seems committed to it. That's alleviated some of my worries his gargantuan frame wouldn't hold up over time. he also impressed me with his desire to be a great Tackle in interviews. He really wants to dominate the position.

That said Wills is just so far ahead of him in terms of preparedness for the NFL that no one is passing him as OT #1 in this class. IMO.

It was the best defense and players he faced all season which makes it best simulation of what he'll face consistently at the NFL level. You thought someone would use the North Texas tape? Why would anyone do that? Gheesh.

Shouldn't deter people from the fact that he also projects pretty well at OT. There really isn't anything outside of some technique issues stopping him there and he's only 20 years old.

The way I see it, the Giants probably need 3-4 longterm starters across the line and at least 1 instant starter. He checks both boxes with upside at as a great LT and a floor as pretty good RT/OG.

That's all? Just some technique issues. Minor stuff like bad footwork. Easy fix. Haha the point is there are three other better OT's available. Why would you take the fourth guy? They all have upside to be great LT's. Because he could play OG if he fails at OT? Ummm the guy we pick better not fail at OT. That's the point.

Its in his thread above, and he is a real scout (not a fake one)

Dave taking him at 4 would be a fireable offense.

Have any actual opinions of your own? or you just parrot others and swallow it whole?

on shitty Youtube clips and I'll admit that I'm far from the authority on OL play here. I still don't get some of the takes on this thread. He's good. He's played OT at a high level in a pro style offense that churns out quality lineman. I see him taking some bad angles on pass sets but he's not some Flowers like project or some workout warrior. His flaws are coachable and there is nothing in his measurables that suggest that he can't play LT in the NFL.

I think a lot of the Wirfs hate comes from the fact that he probably does project out pretty well at OG. Once again, this doesn't mean he doesn't also project out well at OT. Most of this comes from his build, he's stocky, so the narrative heading into the combine was that he didn't have the length. That was wrong. They measured him, he does have the length to play the position he played at a high level in college.

In comment 14851932 Torrag said:

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Have any actual opinions of your own? or you just parrot others and swallow it whole?

Sure i have my own opinions, but who cares about them besides me. However I posted that a professional scout, who contributes to this site and works for teams, has Wirfs as the top OT. He is also not the only professional scout that has him #1. I'm sorry that doesn't jive with your "youtube" analysis.

It should be the expectation that whomever we draft at that spot becomes a star, perennial pro bowler, potential All Pro, etc. Do any of these OT’s, Wirfs included, look to be of that ilk? Personally, I don’t see it. I see that with guys like Brown, Okudah, Young, Ruggs, Lamb, maybe Jeudy. (To be fair, I don’t see it with Simmons either). Pick a star Dave. Or get out.

I see wills as the clear cut number one. Cosell is another guy who loves wills. Personally I go wills,Thomas/wirfs, becton. Everyone should remember prior to the combine nobody had wirfs number one. The film hasn’t change since then unless I’m mistaken.

for top OL since September.

In comment 14851945 The_Boss said:

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It should be the expectation that whomever we draft at that spot becomes a star, perennial pro bowler, potential All Pro, etc. Do any of these OT’s, Wirfs included, look to be of that ilk? Personally, I don’t see it. I see that with guys like Brown, Okudah, Young, Ruggs, Lamb, maybe Jeudy. (To be fair, I don’t see it with Simmons either). Pick a star Dave. Or get out.

Hypothetically, lets say Burrow, Young, Okudah are off the board. No trade down opportunity. You're taking Brown or one of the WR's? I'm purely curious since I don't believe I've heard a viewpoint beyond an OT or Simmons in that scenario on this site.

In comment 14851956 Strahan91 said:

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In comment 14851945 The_Boss said: Quote: It should be the expectation that whomever we draft at that spot becomes a star, perennial pro bowler, potential All Pro, etc. Do any of these OT’s, Wirfs included, look to be of that ilk? Personally, I don’t see it. I see that with guys like Brown, Okudah, Young, Ruggs, Lamb, maybe Jeudy. (To be fair, I don’t see it with Simmons either). Pick a star Dave. Or get out. Hypothetically, lets say Burrow, Young, Okudah are off the board. No trade down opportunity. You're taking Brown or one of the WR's? I'm purely curious since I don't believe I've heard a viewpoint beyond an OT or Simmons in that scenario on this site.

Brown doesn’t fit given all the interior DL we plan on playing. Now if we traded someone, then sure. WR wouldn’t be ideal, but I would think maybe the top 2 grade out better then whomever is the #1 OT.

In comment 14851964 The_Boss said:

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In comment 14851956 Strahan91 said: Quote: In comment 14851945 The_Boss said: Quote: It should be the expectation that whomever we draft at that spot becomes a star, perennial pro bowler, potential All Pro, etc. Do any of these OT’s, Wirfs included, look to be of that ilk? Personally, I don’t see it. I see that with guys like Brown, Okudah, Young, Ruggs, Lamb, maybe Jeudy. (To be fair, I don’t see it with Simmons either). Pick a star Dave. Or get out. Hypothetically, lets say Burrow, Young, Okudah are off the board. No trade down opportunity. You're taking Brown or one of the WR's? I'm purely curious since I don't believe I've heard a viewpoint beyond an OT or Simmons in that scenario on this site. Brown doesn’t fit given all the interior DL we plan on playing. Now if we traded someone, then sure. WR wouldn’t be ideal, but I would think maybe the top 2 grade out better then whomever is the #1 OT.

And so I don’t get accused of overlooking him, to me, Simmons not having a defined position is a disqualified in my opinion. I’m not spending a 4 on a guy who might project to rover or FS.

I remember his evaluation of Will Hernandez.

is worrisome.

He is definitely not Ereck Flowers but he plays tight and coiled in pass pro as Cosell eloquently stated . Zeirline says he does not convert that athleticism in pass pro well either.

Meanwhile you can see Wills point guard background show up in a big way. Awareness, vision, anticipation and being able to process what's in front of him quickly.

Wills is the consummate 'Ozzie Newsome' pick . A guy on the field who clearly gets it done and shows natural football instinct to play the game at a high level.

Becton is an absolute freak who isn't as smart as Wills nor as technically proficient but is so ridiculously gifted both in size and speed. You can see with better coaching how much he improved. He just annihilates people. So impressive and rare.

In comment 14851945 The_Boss said:

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It should be the expectation that whomever we draft at that spot becomes a star, perennial pro bowler, potential All Pro, etc. Do any of these OT’s, Wirfs included, look to be of that ilk? Personally, I don’t see it. I see that with guys like Brown, Okudah, Young, Ruggs, Lamb, maybe Jeudy. (To be fair, I don’t see it with Simmons either). Pick a star Dave. Or get out.

All 4 have enough collective elite traits to be that player. Its just the risk of each one gets higher in this order: Wills, Becton, Wirfs, Thomas. With Wills being the safest. Even Jackson and Jones have a pretty decent shot and therefore neither get out of the middle to bottom round 1 either.

Not near worth a top ten pick in the draft. IMO.

a college OT who will be a better guard in the pros.

movement skills when run blocking. I do think that he's a very safe pick, who likely can play either OT spot.

I love Wirfs' run blocking, and think that Barkley would have a field day running behind him. I also think that he typically does fine in pass protection, but that he sometimes overcommits on his slide step to protect against an outside rush and leaves himself vulnerable to inside moves; that's typically when he gets beat.

I really have issues with Thomas's footwork, and he seems to sometimes lean from the waist ala Flowers, which scares the crap out of me.

Becton is the least polished 1st rounder that I can imagine. But his strength and footwork suggest that he likely has the highest upside of them all. He's also the most likely of them to bust, in my estimation.

I think they are all talented, and all top 15 players, but I think it's a "pick your poison" choice here. I'd suggest that they all have their weaknesses.

I keep going back and forth about whom I'd like us to land, but I'm hoping that we take one of them after a trade down, and that Columbo can develop whomever we choose into a top LT after a year at RT.

In comment 14851996 yatqb said:

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movement skills when run blocking. I do think that he's a very safe pick, who likely can play either OT spot. I love Wirfs' run blocking, and think that Barkley would have a field day running behind him. I also think that he typically does fine in pass protection, but that he sometimes overcommits on his slide step to protect against an outside rush and leaves himself vulnerable to inside moves; that's typically when he gets beat. I really have issues with Thomas's footwork, and he seems to sometimes lean from the waist ala Flowers, which scares the crap out of me. Becton is the least polished 1st rounder that I can imagine. But his strength and footwork suggest that he likely has the highest upside of them all. He's also the most likely of them to bust, in my estimation. I think they are all talented, and all top 15 players, but I think it's a "pick your poison" choice here. I'd suggest that they all have their weaknesses. I keep going back and forth about whom I'd like us to land, but I'm hoping that we take one of them after a trade down, and that Columbo can develop whomever we choose into a top LT after a year at RT.

Good post.

I think Wills offers the best combo to help Barkley and Jones. Jones with time is lethal. Barkley with half decent blocking can do the rest. Give me Wills.


Wills - ( New Window )

And I get what you're saying about him, Wirfs has some issue in space. My biggest take from that though is Gross Matos...we'd be lucky to get him at 36.

In comment 14851932 Torrag said:

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Have any actual opinions of your own? or you just parrot others and swallow it whole?

It shows that he understands that he is a novice.

If I need medical advice should I listen to my doctor or think for myself?

All opinions are not equal. Some are more informed than others. An opinion is only as good as the source. Couts aren't infallible but I'll take the opinion of a pro scout over you.

In comment 14851923 Torrag said:

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It was the best defense and players he faced all season which makes it best simulation of what he'll face consistently at the NFL level. You thought someone would use the North Texas tape? Why would anyone do that? Gheesh.

I recall people using this same asinine excuse with Ronnie Stanley and the Clemson game to critique him. (Not that ppf is the end all-be all, but they just rated his 2019 season as the best pass blocking season since they started grading.) Using one game (good or bad) is a horrific way to grade any player. I get that some people don't like Wirfs and will look for anyone/anything to back them up, but the idea that Wirfs can' play in space is just foolish. I watched 6 full games of Wirfs this season and never once saw him beaten on the outside.

Also, moving him to guard would not be taking advantage of his greatest strength, which is ridiculous athleticism for a man that size.

He's beaten to the outside multiple times in that one 10 minute clip session and I've seen it in other games as well. Not a lot...but enough. I've watched as much video as I can find on all the top OT's. I said the first week Wirfs has some core stiffness, footwork and balance issues resulting from it and some issues anticipating games and stunts. It's obvious. He uses his broad base and girth to wall guys off but that's only going to get you to step one in the NFL. The rest is technique based and his is inconsistent.

I WANT TO MAKE THIS CLEAR...Wirfs is a good OL prospect. He's a Top 15ish pick in most Drafts. It just so happens THIS IS THE BEST OT CLASS IN MANY YEARS AND THERE ARE BETTER PLAYERS THAN HIM AT THE POSITION. I am not saying he isn't a good player. He is. We could pick him and I believe he would improve our line and be a good player for us. Just not the best one available.

...as the best one. Cossell has Wills as the best as do many others(they all have their favorites as do we)and frankly he has a better track record than dave that I've followed for years. Jeremiah has Becton. Everyone misses.

I would actually prefer to hear what you guys think. I read the draft pundits. I already know what they think. I don't need to enter into conversations here to get that stuff. It's much more interesting to get the fanbase perspective. Why bother posting someone elses ideas.

...that has shitty footwork?

In comment 14851967 The_Boss said:

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In comment 14851964 The_Boss said And so I don’t get accused of overlooking him, to me, Simmons not having a defined position is a disqualified in my opinion. I’m not spending a 4 on a guy who might project to rover or FS.

Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but didn't Troy Polamalu basically have a free reign in the Steelers' system? Troy wasn't as big as Simmons, but he did just about everything back there.

In comment 14852028 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

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In comment 14851923 Torrag said: Quote: It was the best defense and players he faced all season which makes it best simulation of what he'll face consistently at the NFL level. You thought someone would use the North Texas tape? Why would anyone do that? Gheesh. I recall people using this same asinine excuse with Ronnie Stanley and the Clemson game to critique him. (Not that ppf is the end all-be all, but they just rated his 2019 season as the best pass blocking season since they started grading.) Using one game (good or bad) is a horrific way to grade any player. I get that some people don't like Wirfs and will look for anyone/anything to back them up, but the idea that Wirfs can' play in space is just foolish. I watched 6 full games of Wirfs this season and never once saw him beaten on the outside. Also, moving him to guard would not be taking advantage of his greatest strength, which is ridiculous athleticism for a man that size.

Wirfs has upside but is more athlete than technician. You like athleticism and power but your LT needs to be a technician. Consistency is absolutely critical at that position. Wills combines all 3. He literally also has point Gaurd traits instead of wrestling traits (which lend themselves better to OG). Peripheral vision, anticipation, footwork ....all there for Wills.

Becton is more prototypical for LT and shows great potential for improvement vs. the less ideal coaching and system he played in Louisville.

In comment 14852029 Torrag said:

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He's beaten to the outside multiple times in that one 10 minute clip session and I've seen it in other games as well. Not a lot...but enough. I've watched as much video as I can find on all the top OT's. I said the first week Wirfs has some core stiffness, footwork and balance issues resulting from it and some issues anticipating games and stunts. It's obvious. He uses his broad base and girth to wall guys off but that's only going to get you to step one in the NFL. The rest is technique based and his is inconsistent. I WANT TO MAKE THIS CLEAR...Wirfs is a good OL prospect. He's a Top 15ish pick in most Drafts. It just so happens THIS IS THE BEST OT CLASS IN MANY YEARS AND THERE ARE BETTER PLAYERS THAN HIM AT THE POSITION. I am not saying he isn't a good player. He is. We could pick him and I believe he would improve our line and be a good player for us. Just not the best one available.

This is good overall perspective.

But he may only turn out to be an OK pass protector. Likely an upgrade but not necessarily pro bowl level.

A guy who can get the job done there with some really nice blocking but also sometimes exposed by stunts/blitzes and the fast twitchy guys screaming off the edge.

We have 2 other guys that project much closer to shutdown status in pass pro and that Wills or Becton. Wills combination or intnangibles + tangibles are just too good. Not really one really big flag. Such a clean prospect. Bectons upside may be greater but he is more raw and doesn't quite seem to have quite the same character, vision or football IQ traits that Wills has.

Not to say Bectons traits for the most part aren't great they are and in some areas superior to many who have come out in the last few years. But Wills has special ability in so many of the intangible areas that translate so well to pro bowl level pass pro when combined with very good (not necessarily rare but still very good) physical attributes plus superb footwork, he is the best overall.

In comment 14852028 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

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In comment 14851923 Torrag said: Quote: It was the best defense and players he faced all season which makes it best simulation of what he'll face consistently at the NFL level. You thought someone would use the North Texas tape? Why would anyone do that? Gheesh. I recall people using this same asinine excuse with Ronnie Stanley and the Clemson game to critique him. (Not that ppf is the end all-be all, but they just rated his 2019 season as the best pass blocking season since they started grading.) Using one game (good or bad) is a horrific way to grade any player. I get that some people don't like Wirfs and will look for anyone/anything to back them up, but the idea that Wirfs can' play in space is just foolish. I watched 6 full games of Wirfs this season and never once saw him beaten on the outside. Also, moving him to guard would not be taking advantage of his greatest strength, which is ridiculous athleticism for a man that size.

Awareness, anticipation and vision also important at that spot because of the spacing. Wills is tremendous at adjusting on the fly to what develops around him because of this , Wirfs not nearly as good.

appreciate and respect your posts/breakdown, but to say Wills “will probably always be better” than Wirfs is complete bullshit. These guys haven’t stepped onto a NFL field yet. These guys haven’t gotten paid millions of dollars yet. You don’t know anything about how they are gonna react to the NFL. You have no idea how they are gonna be as players.

why are you laughing at someone having technique issues as if to say every single prospect out of college has incredible footwork/technique? That’s called coaching. You are acting like nobody can get better once they get into the NFL.

Love the reports by Dave Te. But go back and read his glowing reports on Bisnowaty. He sounded All World and his was sooo bad.

The Wills fans are by far the most annoying. He will never be a good left tackle in the NFL, he struggled against the good players and was blown away on plays. He is great for the Giants 2nd round pick, for the 4th pick, never, and here is a hint, he will not ever be the Giants pick at 4, not in your dreams.

Tell us Wills worst two games last year.

In comment 14852030 Torrag said:

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...as the best one. Cossell has Wills as the best as do many others(they all have their favorites as do we)and frankly he has a better track record than dave that I've followed for years. Jeremiah has Becton. Everyone misses. I would actually prefer to hear what you guys think. I read the draft pundits. I already know what they think. I don't need to enter into conversations here to get that stuff. It's much more interesting to get the fanbase perspective. Why bother posting someone elses ideas.

I find it kind of funny that you are parroting draft people to make your argument, showing a YouTube video of another guy sharing his opinion, and then say I would prefer to hear what you guys think.

To top it off when people tell you what they think you treat them like they are idiots and insult scouts who don’t agree with you. Wirf is not an OG and will probably be very good. So will Wills maybe. Becton also. Thomas is clearly the safest pick tho. If you want to talk tape that is. I mean that is what you care about then Thomas should be your guy.

But Gettleman is hog headed.

as “honest”, as if those who prefer Wirfs are somehow being dishonest.

There are plenty of well regarded analysts who think both Wills and Wirfs will struggle a bit in pass pro, and are bette run blockers at this stage. Draft is all about projection - which guy do you think can best be coached up to being a very good OT.

Personally, I like Wirfs, he has a nasty disposition that I really like. Wills has some of thet too. I think either would be a good pick, but not at 4. Trade down.

In comment 14852130 XBRONX said:

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Love the reports by Dave Te. But go back and read his glowing reports on Bisnowaty. He sounded All World and his was sooo bad.

Yep, and he wasn't crazy about DJ either. My point wasn't that scouts like Sy and Dave Te aren't infallible. No one really knows, but when I see professionals split between the Wills/Wirfs/Thomas then its obviously a close decision. Just sitting at home watching a youtube video, and then claiming "facts", is ridiculous. Its a preference at best, and everyone has their own just as valid preferences.

I personally want an OT at #4. Based on the paid professionals, I will be happy with either of those 3 players. My preference would be Wirfs because I love the Iowa program for OL development, and his measurables are great, but what do I really know

at the combine, well enough that people after the combine said he answered the questions people had about him.

I really do think it boils down to what the Chargers want to do. Do they want an OT, a QB or Simmons.

will get an answer about Wills worst two games last year. Common to make a comment here and than disappear,never to answer.

In comment 14852200 Section331 said:

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as “honest”, as if those who prefer Wirfs are somehow being dishonest. There are plenty of well regarded analysts who think both Wills and Wirfs will struggle a bit in pass pro, and are bette run blockers at this stage. Draft is all about projection - which guy do you think can best be coached up to being a very good OT. Personally, I like Wirfs, he has a nasty disposition that I really like. Wills has some of thet too. I think either would be a good pick, but not at 4. Trade down.

Honest "and accurate", don't forget about accurate - LOL. Because you know, it is one game on youtube so what more is there possibly to know?