To trade up from 6 to 3. We sit at 4 and Jax sits at 9. Let's for argument's sake say that to go from 9 to 4 is the same value. Is Yannick worth 3 early second round picks? I don't think so especially when you have to factor in giving him a huge deal. So, Yannick, number 9, and a 3rd is the min for me.
We could use him as a pass rusher and he has the desire to play well but I'm not sure Jax gives up that much for our #4.
If they don't give that up then we move on. Dropping down to 9 now makes our first pick someone that we have to keep our fingers crossed to get. We could miss out on the OL and LB we may want. To me, LAC has always made the most sense.
and we'd have to get him extended (and probably LW too). If we had more cap room available I'd think it's more of a possibility.
So while it's possible bc JAX may want to move up to #4, I'm not sure it makes the most sense for either side because we'd probably prefer more draft picks (#9 + #20) and Jax could get another mid/late first for Ngakoue from someone else who has the cap room to resign him longer term.
but if we can get Yannick Ngakoue, I’d be in favor of rescinding the tag and use the dollars on Ngakoue and let him test FA. We could then possibly draft D. Brown at 4
but if we can get Yannick Ngakoue, I’d be in favor of rescinding the tag and use the dollars on Ngakoue and let him test FA. We could then possibly draft D. Brown at 4
Yannick has made it public that he isn't signing long term in Jax. That really hurts them. Philly was interested in him supposedly but the asking price is a first. Philly is all in on a WR and may trade up for one. They do love their DL but I think that would be something that could potentially materialize during the draft if they miss out on their targets. The longer this drags out the more it hurts Jax. If they don't find a suitable trade partner then they will just lose him next year where a team will not have to give up a pick. A smart team will let it play out and if they feel pressured will offer a little more than a comp pick. So, if they want to move up for a QB and Yannick isn't in their long term plans anyway then is giving up the 9the pick and their 3rd really asking too much? If Jax plays this wrong they will only get a comp pick for him in 2022. When you look at it that way then the offer I said would be the min looks really good if they land their franchise QB.
Robbie imo Jax would be happier to do the trade w/ us than vice versa
that's why I agree with you that they'd have to kick in another top 100 pick to get us to do it.
And BB56, yes that's a reasonable plan, to rescind the tag on LW and then tag Ngakoue. If we did it I'd be fine with that, but the goal would still be signing both long term or else we are losing value. Without LW, are we just counting on a BJ Hill bounce back? Or to your point drafting a player high like Derrick Brown who may or may not even be as good as LW in the first place? 1year/$16m is a lot less valuable to me than our either of our top 2 picks.
Rescinding the tag on William's makes zero sense to me
He is very tradeable. If teams know we are trying to do what is being discussed then his value takes a hit but look at what the Ravens gave up for Campbell. Campbell is a good player but his best days are behind him. There is no reason we couldn't get at least a fifth out of Williams if this weird situation presented itself. Just flat out releasing him wouldn't be wise.
RE: Rescinding the tag on William's makes zero sense to me
He is very tradeable. If teams know we are trying to do what is being discussed then his value takes a hit but look at what the Ravens gave up for Campbell. Campbell is a good player but his best days are behind him. There is no reason we couldn't get at least a fifth out of Williams if this weird situation presented itself. Just flat out releasing him wouldn't be wise.
I'd only rescind the tag if it was a paper move knowing we are 90%+ likely to extend him. Obviously anything can happen, but I feel it's more likely we'd get a reasonable extension with LW that saves some money against the cap relative to $16m than it is that they'd save $ against the AAV of the tag for Ngkoue since his extension will likely be a lot more pricey.
Either way the finances of working out extensions for both players is why I think this deal doesn't work anymore. If we had 20m-30m left to spend, it would make more sense. Though it's certainly possible the LW extension is already close, Solder/Zeitler can be restructured, and if Jax puts a deal like this on the table when we are on the clock it becomes workable. I sort of doubt it though because that puts a lot of money on the future.
If JAX does want to move up to 4 (which is the key to this deal) it's likely preferable for the Giants to just get the 2nd first (#20) and JAX can ship Yannick to whoever separately for a similar pick (like Philly).
RE: RE: Rescinding the tag on William's makes zero sense to me
He is very tradeable. If teams know we are trying to do what is being discussed then his value takes a hit but look at what the Ravens gave up for Campbell. Campbell is a good player but his best days are behind him. There is no reason we couldn't get at least a fifth out of Williams if this weird situation presented itself. Just flat out releasing him wouldn't be wise.
I'd only rescind the tag if it was a paper move knowing we are 90%+ likely to extend him. Obviously anything can happen, but I feel it's more likely we'd get a reasonable extension with LW that saves some money against the cap relative to $16m than it is that they'd save $ against the AAV of the tag for Ngkoue since his extension will likely be a lot more pricey.
Either way the finances of working out extensions for both players is why I think this deal doesn't work anymore. If we had 20m-30m left to spend, it would make more sense. Though it's certainly possible the LW extension is already close, Solder/Zeitler can be restructured, and if Jax puts a deal like this on the table when we are on the clock it becomes workable. I sort of doubt it though because that puts a lot of money on the future.
If JAX does want to move up to 4 (which is the key to this deal) it's likely preferable for the Giants to just get the 2nd first (#20) and JAX can ship Yannick to whoever separately for a similar pick (like Philly).
Agreed.
RE: Robbie imo Jax would be happier to do the trade w/ us than vice versa
that's why I agree with you that they'd have to kick in another top 100 pick to get us to do it.
And BB56, yes that's a reasonable plan, to rescind the tag on LW and then tag Ngakoue. If we did it I'd be fine with that, but the goal would still be signing both long term or else we are losing value. Without LW, are we just counting on a BJ Hill bounce back? Or to your point drafting a player high like Derrick Brown who may or may not even be as good as LW in the first place? 1year/$16m is a lot less valuable to me than our either of our top 2 picks.
Actually the rescinded tag money for LW would go towards signing YN long term (which would be pre-arranged in any trade for him or must be, imo). I wouldn’t tag YN(not sure we could anyway)
that's why I agree with you that they'd have to kick in another top 100 pick to get us to do it.
And BB56, yes that's a reasonable plan, to rescind the tag on LW and then tag Ngakoue. If we did it I'd be fine with that, but the goal would still be signing both long term or else we are losing value. Without LW, are we just counting on a BJ Hill bounce back? Or to your point drafting a player high like Derrick Brown who may or may not even be as good as LW in the first place? 1year/$16m is a lot less valuable to me than our either of our top 2 picks.
Actually the rescinded tag money for LW would go towards signing YN long term (which would be pre-arranged in any trade for him or must be, imo). I wouldn’t tag YN(not sure we could anyway)
I think we could trade for him on the tag? And yes, an extension would likely be key to the trade but my point is an extension for YN is likely to exceed the AAV of the tag so it doesn't help us accommodate both players.
Letting Williams walk for nothing to accommodate YN is sort of a non-starter for me. Especially since JAX has low cost assets they could send us (draft picks) instead if they want the 4OA. Here's another way of making the point, would you rather have:
a) LW + 9 + 20
or
b) YN + 9
IMO it's easily A.
RE: RE: RE: Robbie imo Jax would be happier to do the trade w/ us than vice versa
that's why I agree with you that they'd have to kick in another top 100 pick to get us to do it.
And BB56, yes that's a reasonable plan, to rescind the tag on LW and then tag Ngakoue. If we did it I'd be fine with that, but the goal would still be signing both long term or else we are losing value. Without LW, are we just counting on a BJ Hill bounce back? Or to your point drafting a player high like Derrick Brown who may or may not even be as good as LW in the first place? 1year/$16m is a lot less valuable to me than our either of our top 2 picks.
Actually the rescinded tag money for LW would go towards signing YN long term (which would be pre-arranged in any trade for him or must be, imo). I wouldn’t tag YN(not sure we could anyway)
I think we could trade for him on the tag? And yes, an extension would likely be key to the trade but my point is an extension for YN is likely to exceed the AAV of the tag so it doesn't help us accommodate both players.
Letting Williams walk for nothing to accommodate YN is sort of a non-starter for me. Especially since JAX has low cost assets they could send us (draft picks) instead if they want the 4OA. Here's another way of making the point, would you rather have:
a) LW + 9 + 20
or
b) YN + 9
IMO it's easily A.
As I said, I like LW and want him here. That said, if he tests FA, two things come to mind:
1) Most (if not all) teams have ALREADY spent their big bucks and therefore might be disinclined to sign him
2) Related to #1, he wouldn’t get anywhere close to what I THINK he wants, so we might get the opportunity to sign him to a more palatable amount
This team isn’t a pass rusher away from contention. And he’s going to get a massive contract. They need to accrue assets, not trade them for talented albeit very expensive players IMV
People act like Leonard Williams at $16.9 million is a big trade chip
That’s laughable. That’s the epitome of overvaluing your own players. Jax is tight up against the cap and seem to be gearing toward a rebuild. Why in God’s name would they want Leonard Williams ?
I'll just leave this here. Note the last two tweets in the past hour. Jax is losing leverage if they are insisting on a 1st rounder. Their comp pick for Yannick leaving next year would be a 3rd round in 2022. He isn't signing with Jax long term. He might not even sign the tag this year (except for an agreed upon trade).
This team isn’t a pass rusher away from contention. And he’s going to get a massive contract. They need to accrue assets, not trade them for talented albeit very expensive players IMV
Agreed. Yannick will want a massive deal. We are not one player away from being competitive.
both are under the franchise tag which means a contract would have to be worked out in advance.
This is NOT a proposed trade involving LW and YN. It’s a SIGN AND TRADE of YN to us, a rescinding of LW’s Tag (freeing up money to pay YN after a deal is worked out) and letting LW enter FA..
No you do not. Not for the money he wants because this team is not a contender next season (2020). Plus they do not have the money for him.($18-$20 mill per)
If they want #4, the Giants get a minimum #9, #20 and Jax 3rd rounder.
Yannick would want what Clowney originally was reportedly asking for in the $22M range for 4-5 years. Giants aren’t 1 player away. Would be a lot happier if either Jax 9, 2nd round and next years 2nd for 4 or if possible 9 and 20 this year.
RE: RE: If you can get Ngakoue and the 9th pick for our
No you do not. Not for the money he wants because this team is not a contender next season (2020). Plus they do not have the money for him.($18-$20 mill per)
If they want #4, the Giants get a minimum #9, #20 and Jax 3rd rounder.
Ngakoue is gonna be a young 25 years old when the season begins. You sing him for 5 years. The cap will go up
No you do not. Not for the money he wants because this team is not a contender next season (2020). Plus they do not have the money for him.($18-$20 mill per)
If they want #4, the Giants get a minimum #9, #20 and Jax 3rd rounder.
Ngakoue is gonna be a young 25 years old when the season begins. You sing him for 5 years. The cap will go up
I want the picks, not a $20+ mill per year player.
In addition to Yannick Ngakoue?
Quote:
.
In addition to Yannick Ngakoue?
Correct
If they don't give that up then we move on. Dropping down to 9 now makes our first pick someone that we have to keep our fingers crossed to get. We could miss out on the OL and LB we may want. To me, LAC has always made the most sense.
imv.
So while it's possible bc JAX may want to move up to #4, I'm not sure it makes the most sense for either side because we'd probably prefer more draft picks (#9 + #20) and Jax could get another mid/late first for Ngakoue from someone else who has the cap room to resign him longer term.
Stupid! We wouldn’t have that 4. Sheesh.
And BB56, yes that's a reasonable plan, to rescind the tag on LW and then tag Ngakoue. If we did it I'd be fine with that, but the goal would still be signing both long term or else we are losing value. Without LW, are we just counting on a BJ Hill bounce back? Or to your point drafting a player high like Derrick Brown who may or may not even be as good as LW in the first place? 1year/$16m is a lot less valuable to me than our either of our top 2 picks.
I'd only rescind the tag if it was a paper move knowing we are 90%+ likely to extend him. Obviously anything can happen, but I feel it's more likely we'd get a reasonable extension with LW that saves some money against the cap relative to $16m than it is that they'd save $ against the AAV of the tag for Ngkoue since his extension will likely be a lot more pricey.
Either way the finances of working out extensions for both players is why I think this deal doesn't work anymore. If we had 20m-30m left to spend, it would make more sense. Though it's certainly possible the LW extension is already close, Solder/Zeitler can be restructured, and if Jax puts a deal like this on the table when we are on the clock it becomes workable. I sort of doubt it though because that puts a lot of money on the future.
If JAX does want to move up to 4 (which is the key to this deal) it's likely preferable for the Giants to just get the 2nd first (#20) and JAX can ship Yannick to whoever separately for a similar pick (like Philly).
Quote:
He is very tradeable. If teams know we are trying to do what is being discussed then his value takes a hit but look at what the Ravens gave up for Campbell. Campbell is a good player but his best days are behind him. There is no reason we couldn't get at least a fifth out of Williams if this weird situation presented itself. Just flat out releasing him wouldn't be wise.
I'd only rescind the tag if it was a paper move knowing we are 90%+ likely to extend him. Obviously anything can happen, but I feel it's more likely we'd get a reasonable extension with LW that saves some money against the cap relative to $16m than it is that they'd save $ against the AAV of the tag for Ngkoue since his extension will likely be a lot more pricey.
Either way the finances of working out extensions for both players is why I think this deal doesn't work anymore. If we had 20m-30m left to spend, it would make more sense. Though it's certainly possible the LW extension is already close, Solder/Zeitler can be restructured, and if Jax puts a deal like this on the table when we are on the clock it becomes workable. I sort of doubt it though because that puts a lot of money on the future.
If JAX does want to move up to 4 (which is the key to this deal) it's likely preferable for the Giants to just get the 2nd first (#20) and JAX can ship Yannick to whoever separately for a similar pick (like Philly).
Agreed.
And BB56, yes that's a reasonable plan, to rescind the tag on LW and then tag Ngakoue. If we did it I'd be fine with that, but the goal would still be signing both long term or else we are losing value. Without LW, are we just counting on a BJ Hill bounce back? Or to your point drafting a player high like Derrick Brown who may or may not even be as good as LW in the first place? 1year/$16m is a lot less valuable to me than our either of our top 2 picks.
Actually the rescinded tag money for LW would go towards signing YN long term (which would be pre-arranged in any trade for him or must be, imo). I wouldn’t tag YN(not sure we could anyway)
It's like trading for Zak Prescott.
Quote:
that's why I agree with you that they'd have to kick in another top 100 pick to get us to do it.
And BB56, yes that's a reasonable plan, to rescind the tag on LW and then tag Ngakoue. If we did it I'd be fine with that, but the goal would still be signing both long term or else we are losing value. Without LW, are we just counting on a BJ Hill bounce back? Or to your point drafting a player high like Derrick Brown who may or may not even be as good as LW in the first place? 1year/$16m is a lot less valuable to me than our either of our top 2 picks.
Actually the rescinded tag money for LW would go towards signing YN long term (which would be pre-arranged in any trade for him or must be, imo). I wouldn’t tag YN(not sure we could anyway)
I think we could trade for him on the tag? And yes, an extension would likely be key to the trade but my point is an extension for YN is likely to exceed the AAV of the tag so it doesn't help us accommodate both players.
Letting Williams walk for nothing to accommodate YN is sort of a non-starter for me. Especially since JAX has low cost assets they could send us (draft picks) instead if they want the 4OA. Here's another way of making the point, would you rather have:
a) LW + 9 + 20
or
b) YN + 9
IMO it's easily A.
Quote:
In comment 14852207 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
that's why I agree with you that they'd have to kick in another top 100 pick to get us to do it.
And BB56, yes that's a reasonable plan, to rescind the tag on LW and then tag Ngakoue. If we did it I'd be fine with that, but the goal would still be signing both long term or else we are losing value. Without LW, are we just counting on a BJ Hill bounce back? Or to your point drafting a player high like Derrick Brown who may or may not even be as good as LW in the first place? 1year/$16m is a lot less valuable to me than our either of our top 2 picks.
Actually the rescinded tag money for LW would go towards signing YN long term (which would be pre-arranged in any trade for him or must be, imo). I wouldn’t tag YN(not sure we could anyway)
I think we could trade for him on the tag? And yes, an extension would likely be key to the trade but my point is an extension for YN is likely to exceed the AAV of the tag so it doesn't help us accommodate both players.
Letting Williams walk for nothing to accommodate YN is sort of a non-starter for me. Especially since JAX has low cost assets they could send us (draft picks) instead if they want the 4OA. Here's another way of making the point, would you rather have:
a) LW + 9 + 20
or
b) YN + 9
IMO it's easily A.
As I said, I like LW and want him here. That said, if he tests FA, two things come to mind:
1) Most (if not all) teams have ALREADY spent their big bucks and therefore might be disinclined to sign him
2) Related to #1, he wouldn’t get anywhere close to what I THINK he wants, so we might get the opportunity to sign him to a more palatable amount
Agreed. Yannick will want a massive deal. We are not one player away from being competitive.
This is NOT a proposed trade involving LW and YN. It’s a SIGN AND TRADE of YN to us, a rescinding of LW’s Tag (freeing up money to pay YN after a deal is worked out) and letting LW enter FA..
On the other hand, I'd give up the 4th pick for Jacksonville's 9th and 20th picks.
No you do not. Not for the money he wants because this team is not a contender next season (2020). Plus they do not have the money for him.($18-$20 mill per)
If they want #4, the Giants get a minimum #9, #20 and Jax 3rd rounder.
Quote:
4th overall you do it.
No you do not. Not for the money he wants because this team is not a contender next season (2020). Plus they do not have the money for him.($18-$20 mill per)
If they want #4, the Giants get a minimum #9, #20 and Jax 3rd rounder.
Ngakoue is gonna be a young 25 years old when the season begins. You sing him for 5 years. The cap will go up
Quote:
In comment 14852490 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
4th overall you do it.
No you do not. Not for the money he wants because this team is not a contender next season (2020). Plus they do not have the money for him.($18-$20 mill per)
If they want #4, the Giants get a minimum #9, #20 and Jax 3rd rounder.
Ngakoue is gonna be a young 25 years old when the season begins. You sing him for 5 years. The cap will go up
I want the picks, not a $20+ mill per year player.