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Giants must make NFL Draft all about protecting Daniel Jones

GFAN52 : 3/29/2020 6:50 pm
Quote:
They must draft one of the Core Four offensive tackles — Tristan Wirfs or Mekhi Becton or Andrew Thomas or Jedrick Wills — in the first round and the best available center in the second round with the 36th pick, if it isn’t a reach or if a pass rusher rated considerably higher is still on the board.

Jones can use his legs to escape the pocket, but that doesn’t mean anyone should expect him to start 210 straight games and be an Eli-esque Iron Man. The two games he missed as a rookie ought to serve as a reminder.

And if Barkley is ever going to silence the analytics crowd that rails against using a second-overall pick on a running back — even if he is a weapon more than just a running back — he will need something more akin to the kind of offensive line Ezekiel Elliott is privileged to have paving a path for him in Dallas, and Barkley needs it yesterday, because he will be entering his third season already.

Link - ( New Window )
It’s Serby  
The_Boss : 3/29/2020 6:53 pm : link
That’s all I need to know.
They have to improve the line  
UberAlias : 3/29/2020 7:05 pm : link
But they don’t need to draft Oline with their top pick.
Do not forget the 2 270 Lbs TE will help  
George from PA : 3/29/2020 7:21 pm : link
.
I’m sure the Giants will put considerable  
Giant John : 3/29/2020 7:40 pm : link
Draft resources into the oline. But that first round pick needs to be best player available. If that’s a tackle so be it. If not that’s ok too.
BPA  
SGMen : 3/29/2020 7:44 pm : link
If the BPA or is a cluster of equal graded guys at #4, and he happens to be an OT, so be it. But if a guy is graded "blue-chip 9.0" and the OT is "super solid starter" 8.4 projected kind of guy, please take the BPA regardless of position.

I just still hurt over E. Flowers at #10.
RE: BPA  
MeadowlandsMike : 3/29/2020 7:47 pm : link
In comment 14853550 SGMen said:
Quote:
If the BPA or is a cluster of equal graded guys at #4, and he happens to be an OT, so be it. But if a guy is graded "blue-chip 9.0" and the OT is "super solid starter" 8.4 projected kind of guy, please take the BPA regardless of position.

I just still hurt over E. Flowers at #10.


No doubt. But that's Young in his own zip code and that's it. There are at least 2 of the 4 OTs that should be in next tier under Young.
DG said that Jones needs to learn how to play the position  
JohnB : 3/29/2020 7:50 pm : link
and he can't learn if he is running for his life.

Draft an OLinemen
RE: DG said that Jones needs to learn how to play the position  
MeadowlandsMike : 3/29/2020 7:51 pm : link
In comment 14853559 JohnB said:
Quote:
and he can't learn if he is running for his life.

Draft an OLinemen


Did he say both parts or just the 1st part?
Agree 100%  
Andy in Boston : 3/29/2020 7:53 pm : link
It’s about protecting Jones and opening holes for Barkley.
It’s that simple. If we run the ball more like it appears they’re going to ..... then the time of possession will be better and as a result, the defense will be better.
1st Round OT is a necessity  
Torrag : 3/29/2020 7:53 pm : link
The talent warrants it at any spot including #4 overall. A plug and play high level starter is required right now. The second tier guys don't cut it. We don't have a single capable starter at the position on the roster.

Take him at #4. Take him in a trade down. Just take him.
They shouldn’t go OT just to go OT  
UConn4523 : 3/29/2020 7:54 pm : link
if a defender has a much higher rating you take him and then look to trade up to the end of the 1st if a Tackle slips or sit tight and upgrade C at #36.
"if a defender has a much higher rating you take him"  
Torrag : 3/29/2020 7:57 pm : link
They don't.

Only Young would qualify and he'll be gone. If by some miracle he isn't then that's the exception to the rule.
Protecting Jones  
AndyB : 3/29/2020 7:57 pm : link
That's profoundly mistaken.

You don't pass on Walter Payton 'cause you need a guard. That's what the Colts did in 1975.

The surest way for the Giants to protect Daniel Jones is to improve the football team. That starts not with new players but with a head coach and coaching staff getting more out of the players you already have. The answer is to work hard and improve.

Teams that use the draft to "address their needs" will just be addressing those same needs, over and over. Those are the teams that never get any better.

The Giants were 3-12-1 in 1983. They had the third overall pick in the '84 draft. They had needs everywhere. Everywhere that is except outside linebacker. Lawrence Taylor, Byron Hunt and Andy Headen were all 25 or younger. Yet the Giants wisely didn't "address their needs." They took another outside linebacker, Carl Banks from Michigan State. I don't think George Young or Tom Boisture ever regretted that pick.

The Giants will be picking the players with the highest grades. Why would they do all that work just to disregard it when it counts the most?
Agree with comments  
Lines of Scrimmage : 3/29/2020 8:01 pm : link
about BPA at 4 but hope it is a tackle. Yes they have to protect Jones and the best way to do that is run the ball better. Created better down/distance and opens up play action. Tough running PA when you are 2nd-11yds or 3rd and 9. 2nd and 5 or 3rd and 2......now they have options.
RE: Protecting Jones  
MeadowlandsMike : 3/29/2020 8:01 pm : link
In comment 14853577 AndyB said:
Quote:
That's profoundly mistaken.

You don't pass on Walter Payton 'cause you need a guard. That's what the Colts did in 1975.

The surest way for the Giants to protect Daniel Jones is to improve the football team. That starts not with new players but with a head coach and coaching staff getting more out of the players you already have. The answer is to work hard and improve.

Teams that use the draft to "address their needs" will just be addressing those same needs, over and over. Those are the teams that never get any better.

The Giants were 3-12-1 in 1983. They had the third overall pick in the '84 draft. They had needs everywhere. Everywhere that is except outside linebacker. Lawrence Taylor, Byron Hunt and Andy Headen were all 25 or younger. Yet the Giants wisely didn't "address their needs." They took another outside linebacker, Carl Banks from Michigan State. I don't think George Young or Tom Boisture ever regretted that pick.

The Giants will be picking the players with the highest grades. Why would they do all that work just to disregard it when it counts the most?


Most here are asserting the grade for the OT matches the players that will be there at 4. We aren't talking about an Ereck Flowers reach here. Young as Torrag mentioned is the only non QB in a row by himself and changes the equation.
The goal is to win football games  
Mike from Ohio : 3/29/2020 8:02 pm : link
You need talent across the board to do that. This team has needs almost everywhere. If OL is at or near the top talent available when you pick, them go get it. But you don’t draft a guy just because you need someone at that spot right now.

If you could look into the future and know none of these guys would ever become more than average joes in the NFL would you still take hem at #4?

I have no idea how the Giants have these guys rated, but if they don’t see a guy with all-star potential, I am fine not taking one at the top of the first. The goal is to acquire talent, not a guy marginally better than Nate Solder.
Uhhhhh  
tyrik13 : 3/29/2020 8:09 pm : link
No, it doesn’t. There’s 7 rounds in this draft and DG has been known to find mid round diamonds like: Darryl Williams and Trai Turner, and this draft is pretty deep with solid OT. Plus the best LT Oregon’s Penei Sewell doesn’t come out till next year, that’s who I would love protect DJ blindside
When you have a top pick in the draft, you can't miss. I think a  
Ira : 3/29/2020 8:33 pm : link
couple of those tackles are going to disappoint and only one is ready to start out of the gate.
the pass rusher comment is referring  
Dave on the UWS : 3/29/2020 8:41 pm : link
to the rd 2 pick at 36, not #4.
RE: Uhhhhh  
OC2.0 : 3/29/2020 8:51 pm : link
In comment 14853591 tyrik13 said:
Quote:
No, it doesn’t. There’s 7 rounds in this draft and DG has been known to find mid round diamonds like: Darryl Williams and Trai Turner, and this draft is pretty deep with solid OT. Plus the best LT Oregon’s Penei Sewell doesn’t come out till next year, that’s who I would love protect DJ blindside


So ur ok with lving DJ hanging in the breeze all year for a pipe dream? Brilliant.
The last time we forced a pick for the O-Line  
montanagiant : 3/29/2020 9:03 pm : link
We ended up with Flowers which set us back 3 years. Do we really want to risk that again?

Draft BPA in the 1st round
I pointed this out in another thread, but many rankings show 2 OT's in  
PatersonPlank : 3/29/2020 9:08 pm : link
the top 10 and 3 in the top 12 or so. If there are 2 OT's ranked somewhere in the top 10, then they are fair game for #4 and not a reach. Flowers was a reach, everyone was stunned. No one would be stunned with Wills or Wirfs (for example).
If you don't learn from History, it will repeat itself....  
No Where Man : 3/29/2020 9:10 pm : link
We have two gems in DJ and SB. Supporting them should always be the Number 1 priority, EVERY year. Didn't we learn this already on how we wasted 5 plus year's of Eli's prime, by not getting the right help around him? I don't want to repeat that scenario again. One of the strengths of this draft is the OL. Draft talented OL early and often, and let the Offense all grow together.
RE: Agree 100%  
SteelGiant : 3/29/2020 9:18 pm : link
In comment 14853564 Andy in Boston said:
Quote:
It’s about protecting Jones and opening holes for Barkley.
It’s that simple. If we run the ball more like it appears they’re going to ..... then the time of possession will be better and as a result, the defense will be better.


This statement is simply not true. Our defense was not one of the worst in the league because they were on the field for too long due to an offense they struggled. They sucked because they could not stop anyone. They could not cover anyone because they have zero talent at linebacker.

I'm ok if they pick an OT at 4 if they do not like Simmons and they think one of the OTs are great. But if they like Simmons and unsure about the OTs being a Left Tackle at the NFL level then that would be a grave mistake.

If all things are equal then they need to think who they can get later in the draft and next year's draft/free agency to improve the position they do not take.
The defense cant suck anymore...  
bLiTz 2k : 3/29/2020 9:24 pm : link
thats just as big of a priority if this team ever wants to win a close game in any of our lifetimes.
RE: The defense cant suck anymore...  
MeadowlandsMike : 3/29/2020 9:45 pm : link
In comment 14853659 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:
thats just as big of a priority if this team ever wants to win a close game in any of our lifetimes.


A lot of improvements already on that side. We have to see what we have.
Bored to tears draft guy speaks out!!  
Colin@gbn : 3/29/2020 9:45 pm : link
I am kind of an agnostic on the whole subject who is quite prepared to sit tight until the 23rd to see what the Giants actually do. At this point everything else is just kind of howling at the moon! Here is an interesting question though. If we gave Daniel Jones the choice of taking either Jedrick Wills or Jerry Jeudy who would he take??
Lol  
OC2.0 : 3/29/2020 10:03 pm : link
He'd stop you at Wills.
RE: Bored to tears draft guy speaks out!!  
PatersonPlank : 3/29/2020 10:07 pm : link
In comment 14853696 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
I am kind of an agnostic on the whole subject who is quite prepared to sit tight until the 23rd to see what the Giants actually do. At this point everything else is just kind of howling at the moon! Here is an interesting question though. If we gave Daniel Jones the choice of taking either Jedrick Wills or Jerry Jeudy who would he take??


I think he probably really likes Slayton, the seem to have a good report. So I would guess OL too, since I bet he didn't like Remmers that much. Plus he is probably sick of fumbling
Top two needs are OT and C.  
Since1965 : 3/29/2020 10:10 pm : link
If they aren't appropriate for value, then trade down. The significance of a top center cannot be underestimated. He is the key to a successful line. We have seen what happens to the entire line when the C is consistently pushed into the backfield!
RE: Bored to tears draft guy speaks out!!  
MeadowlandsMike : 3/29/2020 10:11 pm : link
In comment 14853696 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
I am kind of an agnostic on the whole subject who is quite prepared to sit tight until the 23rd to see what the Giants actually do. At this point everything else is just kind of howling at the moon! Here is an interesting question though. If we gave Daniel Jones the choice of taking either Jedrick Wills or Jerry Jeudy who would he take??


A QB that struggled with peripheral pass rush transfixing on route development. Not to say he can't improve there but I don't assume it either. I get him tackle protection above everything else.
RE: Bored to tears draft guy speaks out!!  
Capt. Don : 3/29/2020 10:12 pm : link
In comment 14853696 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
I am kind of an agnostic on the whole subject who is quite prepared to sit tight until the 23rd to see what the Giants actually do. At this point everything else is just kind of howling at the moon! Here is an interesting question though. If we gave Daniel Jones the choice of taking either Jedrick Wills or Jerry Jeudy who would he take??


He'd take CeeDee Lamb before Jeudy
RE: Top two needs are OT and C.  
MeadowlandsMike : 3/29/2020 10:15 pm : link
In comment 14853712 Since1965 said:
Quote:
If they aren't appropriate for value, then trade down. The significance of a top center cannot be underestimated. He is the key to a successful line. We have seen what happens to the entire line when the C is consistently pushed into the backfield!


Not saying we don't need a Center but we have Gates who they may see as an OC. He got snaps there in preseason and practices. Zietler also has potential to play in that spot. We currently have no one who can play LT at even an adequate level unless you are assuming a huge rebound for Solder which I'm not banking on.
Stopping the other  
Darth Paul : 3/29/2020 10:41 pm : link
team and run blocking might help, too.
Torrag  
ryanmkeane : 3/29/2020 11:35 pm : link
and how would you know exactly who the Giants have graded as the top 4 prospects? For all we know they could have Derrick Brown as the #2 player in this draft.
ryan I don't think I've said anywhere who or how....  
Torrag : 3/29/2020 11:40 pm : link
the Giants have players rated. You confusing my posts with someone else? I base my posts on my opinions of the prospects and possibilities. Isn't that sorta what we do here in these discussions?> Or why bother having them at all?

I've heard the BPA argument many times ...  
Manny in CA : 3/30/2020 12:36 am : link

But it's over-simplification.

Ernie Accorsi regretted not picking Walter Payton, which drove him to pick UCLA's Shaun Williams; oh what a mistake that was (when there was a screaming need for O-line help), passing on eventual multiple-time ALL PRO Alan Faneca.

The best draft starts by identifying and prioritizing needs, then evaluating the available talent in free agency and the draft. I agree, the most critical need right now is protecting Jones (and there's a lot of highly rated OT talent in the draft). The question - are any of those guys worth a top of the draft board pick ? (Recall, the Giants pooped in the bed picking Pugh and Flowers)

If not you go to the next next need, you ask yourself the same question, and so forth ...
RE: I pointed this out in another thread, but many rankings show 2 OT's in  
shyster : 3/30/2020 12:58 am : link
In comment 14853641 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
the top 10 and 3 in the top 12 or so. . . they are fair game for #4 and not a reach. Flowers was a reach, everyone was stunned.


Revisionist history. Raanan had Flowers as the NYG pick a month before the draft.

There was a lot of pre-draft discussion about Brandon Scherff but no surprise when Flowers was the pick with Scherff not there. There was no one else who was a consensus "if Scherff is gone" expected pick by the Giants.

And everyone knew the Giants wanted to go OL; Mara had gone public about it at the end of the '14 season.

Raanan a month out:

Quote:
With Flowers' size and skills, there is little doubt that he's an NFL tackle. There is significantly more uncertainty when it comes to Scherff and LSU's La'el Collins. Some teams have them pegged as guards, although the Giants seem to think Scherff is a tackle.

All of this factors into the equation. It's why I picked Flowers at No. 9 in my mock draft. Most importantly though, it's because the Giants think very highly of him.




nj.com 4/2/15 - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Protecting Jones  
Paulie Walnuts : 3/30/2020 8:37 am : link
In comment 14853582 MeadowlandsMike said:
Quote:
In comment 14853577 AndyB said:


Quote:


That's profoundly mistaken.

You don't pass on Walter Payton 'cause you need a guard. That's what the Colts did in 1975.

The surest way for the Giants to protect Daniel Jones is to improve the football team. That starts not with new players but with a head coach and coaching staff getting more out of the players you already have. The answer is to work hard and improve.

Teams that use the draft to "address their needs" will just be addressing those same needs, over and over. Those are the teams that never get any better.

The Giants were 3-12-1 in 1983. They had the third overall pick in the '84 draft. They had needs everywhere. Everywhere that is except outside linebacker. Lawrence Taylor, Byron Hunt and Andy Headen were all 25 or younger. Yet the Giants wisely didn't "address their needs." They took another outside linebacker, Carl Banks from Michigan State. I don't think George Young or Tom Boisture ever regretted that pick.

The Giants will be picking the players with the highest grades. Why would they do all that work just to disregard it when it counts the most?



Most here are asserting the grade for the OT matches the players that will be there at 4. We aren't talking about an Ereck Flowers reach here. Young as Torrag mentioned is the only non QB in a row by himself and changes the equation.
I remember hating that Carl Banks pick, why did we need another linebacker? then I saw the man play and how he dominated. I believe the top pick will be a guy like Simmons. Our defense sorely needs a game wrecker type guy. you have to draft them. too expensive to sign one, even if a team didnt tag them. 2nd rd pick can be a Tackle or OC. Defense must improve. tired of giving up 3rd and long conversions
RE: BPA  
joeinpa : 3/30/2020 8:39 am : link
In comment 14853550 SGMen said:
Quote:
If the BPA or is a cluster of equal graded guys at #4, and he happens to be an OT, so be it. But if a guy is graded "blue-chip 9.0" and the OT is "super solid starter" 8.4 projected kind of guy, please take the BPA regardless of position.

I just still hurt over E. Flowers at #10.


👍
Think consensus indicates most think DG  
TMS : 3/30/2020 8:55 am : link
will take BPA at #4 or trade down for extra picks. None of the Ol merit the 4th pick in the draft but Young, Okudah and Simmons do. So DT wannabe at #4 is not in the cards. DG has gone this route the last two drafts so do not see a deviation this year. He clearly thought the need for a QB made Jones the BPA last year rather than any other player available. But QB need is a lot different than OL help. They are all a gamble and may end up as guards. The other three could be all pros on defense. MO.
But bbi told me  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 3/30/2020 9:14 am : link
you don't need a good oline with a mobile QB!
In Serby's defense, he is a big Eli fan...  
sb from NYT Forum : 3/30/2020 9:20 am : link
...and probably, like most of us, got tired of watching Eli getting pounded behind shitty offensive lineman. He likely doesn't want to see the same thing happen to Jones.
Draft priorities  
Gruber : 3/30/2020 9:23 am : link
1. Isiah Simmons at #4.
2. A wide receiver later on.
3. Pile in on the offensive line the rest of the way.

Everyone talks about protecting Jones, which I understand, but an OL that can open holes for Barkley is arguably even more of a priority. If he's not stopped at the line of scrimmage, Barkley is a nightmare for opposing defences to play against.
Huh??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/30/2020 9:30 am : link
Quote:
Ernie Accorsi regretted not picking Walter Payton, which drove him to pick UCLA's Shaun Williams; oh what a mistake that was (when there was a screaming need for O-line help), passing on eventual multiple-time ALL PRO Alan Faneca.


Where do you come up with shit like this?

The Giants were picking in the mid-20's when Williams was selected. How did missing out on Payton at pick #4 have to do with picking Williams at the end of the 1st??

Furthermore, Williams was part of a Giants team that went to a SB and the playoffs 4 times in his career. It isn't like he was a terrible pick or a terrible player. He was oft-injured at the end of his career, but was very solid for 5 years. It wasn't like he was a bust and a terrible pick.
The Giants made the mistake of not protecting Eli for years....  
Fishmanjim57 : 3/30/2020 10:00 am : link
I would hope that they learned their lesson about possessing a weak OL under that GOAT QB, so let's hope they do their best to draft and build a wall of protection for this prospectively fine QB.
Everybody has  
Gman11 : 3/30/2020 10:03 am : link
an opinion and just because a guy has a media outlet to let everybody in the world know his doesn't mean it has any more credibility than Joe Fan.

Personally, I'd rather the Giants take the defensive stud in round one then go heavy offensive line for just about the rest of the draft.
Stop with the Flowers fallacy  
fkap : 3/30/2020 10:09 am : link
He was a bad pick because he was a bad player, not because he was a reach.
Reaching means you take a guy above a reasonably expected draft spot, foregoing players who are forecast to be a better prospect. Perhaps Flowers falls into that category. But that's not why he was such a bad pick. Had he played anywhere near what he was forecast to, he would have been at least serviceable.
That's what a reach gets you - an OK player instead of a good player (presuming they play according to prediction).
IF we had traded back, and taken Flowers at a spot where he wouldn't be considered a reach, he still would have been a busted pick.

IMO, as long as the reach isn't too drastic, it is acceptable. Don't forego a kick ass prospect in favor of a decent one. But it is rarely that black/white.

Above all, quality prospect analysis is the number one driver in successful drafting. No one is 100%, but failure in that dept is what made Flowers a bad pick, not because he was taken above where he was forecast to be picked.
fkap..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/30/2020 10:13 am : link
good point.

Pugh was a reach. Flowers was a bust
RE: RE: I pointed this out in another thread, but many rankings show 2 OT's in  
JonC : 3/30/2020 10:17 am : link
In comment 14853783 shyster said:
Quote:
In comment 14853641 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


the top 10 and 3 in the top 12 or so. . . they are fair game for #4 and not a reach. Flowers was a reach, everyone was stunned.



Revisionist history. Raanan had Flowers as the NYG pick a month before the draft.

There was a lot of pre-draft discussion about Brandon Scherff but no surprise when Flowers was the pick with Scherff not there. There was no one else who was a consensus "if Scherff is gone" expected pick by the Giants.

And everyone knew the Giants wanted to go OL; Mara had gone public about it at the end of the '14 season.

Raanan a month out:



Quote:


With Flowers' size and skills, there is little doubt that he's an NFL tackle. There is significantly more uncertainty when it comes to Scherff and LSU's La'el Collins. Some teams have them pegged as guards, although the Giants seem to think Scherff is a tackle.

All of this factors into the equation. It's why I picked Flowers at No. 9 in my mock draft. Most importantly though, it's because the Giants think very highly of him.



nj.com 4/2/15 - ( New Window )


I told BBI at the very beginning of March that Flowers was their target. It was no secret.
I was going to list  
fkap : 3/30/2020 10:27 am : link
Pugh as a reach.

He worked out OK, with the glaring problem of inability to stay healthy.

We always want a stud, but sometimes just being solid is a victory.
I really didn't think Flowers or Pugh  
LBH15 : 3/30/2020 10:40 am : link
were reaches, or not much at all. Both were typically fairly high in the pre-draft rankings lists for OL.

Recall Pugh had some critics as to his size but not big flaws.

Flowers was just a miss by a lot of people and unfortunately Giants took the brunt.
RE: Draft priorities  
MeadowlandsMike : 3/30/2020 11:07 am : link
In comment 14853892 Gruber said:
Quote:
1. Isiah Simmons at #4.
2. A wide receiver later on.
3. Pile in on the offensive line the rest of the way.

Everyone talks about protecting Jones, which I understand, but an OL that can open holes for Barkley is arguably even more of a priority. If he's not stopped at the line of scrimmage, Barkley is a nightmare for opposing defences to play against.


If they have a 'sneaky' high grade on an LT they think they can get in the 2nd or after trade up.....Maybe. I just don't like the risk involved in that route. And yes I am a big Simmons fan.
RE: I really didn't think Flowers or Pugh  
MeadowlandsMike : 3/30/2020 11:10 am : link
In comment 14853950 LBH15 said:
Quote:
were reaches, or not much at all. Both were typically fairly high in the pre-draft rankings lists for OL.

Recall Pugh had some critics as to his size but not big flaws.

Flowers was just a miss by a lot of people and unfortunately Giants took the brunt.


Injury unless it was pretty clear the guy was an injury risk when he was drafted should not be a reason to label a guy a 'busted' pick. Both Richberg and Pugh showed good ability when healthy. So did Beatty relative to where he was drafted for an LT. So Reese's assessment of the 3 players was spot on.
RE: Stop with the Flowers fallacy  
GiantsLaw : 3/30/2020 11:16 am : link
In comment 14853925 fkap said:
Quote:
He was a bad pick because he was a bad player, not because he was a reach.
IF we had traded back, and taken Flowers at a spot where he wouldn't be considered a reach, he still would have been a busted pick.
I like this reasoning.
RE: Stopping the other  
BlueManCrew : 3/30/2020 11:28 am : link
In comment 14853741 Darth Paul said:
Quote:
team and run blocking might help, too.


Bingo. Those two things right there will protect Jones just as much if not more than upgrading the tackle position. Not playing from behind constantly and opening up a BELIEVABLE play action passing game will keep him off the ground.
we know DG  
ryanmkeane : 3/30/2020 11:31 am : link
likes to cluster draft. He did it with CB last year. Perhaps this year he knows the OL were worth waiting for and the time is now
Torrag  
ryanmkeane : 3/30/2020 11:32 am : link
I gotcha. I don't want to keep going back and forth. My only opinion on the subject is: we don't really know for sure whether Wills or Wirfs is going to be better than the other. To say we do would be a big stretch..
ryan: "we don't really know for sure"  
Torrag : 3/30/2020 11:51 am : link
But we're here to discuss our opinions. Mine is Wills is clearly better now. Not everyone has an epiphany from NFL coaching. Some guys have their weaknesses exposed and don't live up to the billing. Wirfs is playing catch up and whose to say if he ever gets his footwork and technique to that level.
RE: Torrag  
MeadowlandsMike : 3/30/2020 11:51 am : link
In comment 14854018 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
I gotcha. I don't want to keep going back and forth. My only opinion on the subject is: we don't really know for sure whether Wills or Wirfs is going to be better than the other. To say we do would be a big stretch..


It isn't for sure but we are playing the percentages here. Wills shows on tape a very polished pass protector with almost no holes in his game from an intangibles/tangibles standpoint.
RE: RE: Draft priorities  
Gruber : 3/30/2020 12:23 pm : link
In comment 14853970 MeadowlandsMike said:
Quote:
In comment 14853892 Gruber said:


Quote:


1. Isiah Simmons at #4.
2. A wide receiver later on.
3. Pile in on the offensive line the rest of the way.

Everyone talks about protecting Jones, which I understand, but an OL that can open holes for Barkley is arguably even more of a priority. If he's not stopped at the line of scrimmage, Barkley is a nightmare for opposing defences to play against.



If they have a 'sneaky' high grade on an LT they think they can get in the 2nd or after trade up.....Maybe. I just don't like the risk involved in that route. And yes I am a big Simmons fan.


Sy56's review of Simmons will be out soon. Maybe that will bring you round.
I just believe that this is what the front office is going to do. Draft Simmons at #4, as barring an upset ahead of us, he will still be on the board. I definitely wouldn't rule out a surprise move ahead of us, however.
RE: RE: RE: Draft priorities  
MeadowlandsMike : 3/30/2020 1:31 pm : link
In comment 14854084 Gruber said:
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In comment 14853970 MeadowlandsMike said:


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In comment 14853892 Gruber said:


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1. Isiah Simmons at #4.
2. A wide receiver later on.
3. Pile in on the offensive line the rest of the way.

Everyone talks about protecting Jones, which I understand, but an OL that can open holes for Barkley is arguably even more of a priority. If he's not stopped at the line of scrimmage, Barkley is a nightmare for opposing defences to play against.



If they have a 'sneaky' high grade on an LT they think they can get in the 2nd or after trade up.....Maybe. I just don't like the risk involved in that route. And yes I am a big Simmons fan.



Sy56's review of Simmons will be out soon. Maybe that will bring you round.
I just believe that this is what the front office is going to do. Draft Simmons at #4, as barring an upset ahead of us, he will still be on the board. I definitely wouldn't rule out a surprise move ahead of us, however.


If the OTs were last years crop I'd be in agreement but 2 OTs on my board are in the same row as Simmons. And I do think Simmons is a pro bowl force for the right DC. These OTs also have pro bowl upside with 2 very possibly doing it at the LT position.
The real question is what to do if Okudah is there  
Prude : 3/30/2020 4:20 pm : link
I think Okudah is the best defensive talent in this draft outside maybe Chase Young. If you think he is going to be a perennial pro-bowller do you pull the trigger on another cb and hope to find OL later?
No Draft is About One Thing Only  
Big Blue Beerguy : 3/30/2020 7:55 pm : link
I agree that shoring up the o-line is a top priority this off season. And if we have one of the "big 4" o-lineman graded high enough to justify picking one over the top defensive talents, then we should do so.

But as fans - even particularly dedicated and informed fans - we simply don't have enough information to evaluate draft prospects to even close to the level that the teams (with a whole staff of professionals dedicating their jobs to this) do. So for all I know the Giants have, say, Wirfs graded in the same top quality band as, say, Okudah. In that case, take Wirfs in round 1.

The closest I can come to evaluating draft picks is to "crowd source" information from the opinions of the NFL "talking heads" like Mel Kipper. They probably don't know as much as the teams, but they certainly know more than me or likely any other fan that has a "day job" that does not involve football. And when I do look at their various rankings, none of the o-lineman consistently, if ever, appear in the list of "top five" talents. The prospects who do appear on that "blue chip" list are Burrows and the top 4 defensive players.

This sets up a classic case of "best player" (although in the draft, "best guess player" is probably a better term) versus need. Given that our defense is hardly a dominant unit, if the Giants front office evaluations match what the NFL talking heads say, then if I were DG and company I would pick from the higher-ranked (defensive) group.

Note, too, that passing on o-line help in round one hardly makes it impossible to improve the o-line through the draft. We have two Day 2 picks and a bushel (7 total) Day 3 picks. Indeed, some analysis I have seen (link below - rings true anecdotally) is that o-line is a position group with a good success rate in later rounds of the draft. Think Jason Peters or our own beloved David Diehl, Rich Seubert, and Shaun O'Hara.

So count me in as a fan of improving our o-line through this year's draft. But that does not necessary mean we must draft an offensive tackle in round 1. I would much prefer that DG and company stay true to their board and not reach if a better prospect is available.
Draft Success by Position - ( New Window )
Good post BBB...you said it  
LBH15 : 3/30/2020 8:35 pm : link
all very well.

Now let's get that trade-down deal done.

Pugh/ Flowers  
Percy : 3/30/2020 10:51 pm : link
First surprised, second shocked. None of the top 4 OTs or Simmons will do either of these.
Jones and his investment last year matter  
AcesUp : 3/30/2020 11:47 pm : link
It shouldn't drive the pick nor should it be dismissed...but it does need to be a variable in the equation here.
"appear in the list of 'top five' talents"  
Torrag : 3/31/2020 12:18 am : link
When 1 -3 Draft slots separate prospects in many cases there isn't an appreciable difference in grade. That is how this plays out between the 'top defenders' and the Top OT's. Remove the QB's, who don't factor into the equation at all at the top of the Draft for teams that already have theirs, and multiple OT's are in the Top 5 position players grouping they'd be evaluating.

Jeremiah for example has Simmons #3, Okudah at #5 and Becton at #6 with 1 QB in the mix.

Huddle(THR) has Okudah at #4, Simmons #6 and Wirfs at #7 with 2 QB's in the mix.

They're all right there bunched together in a tight knot. Factor in the investment in Jones and Barkley, the overwhelming impact the QB position has on a franchises fortunes and the impact OL improvement has on a running attack(ask Tennessee) and it's easy to see why OT should be the selection both on merit and roster building philosophy.
RE: OT v. BPA  
Big Blue Beerguy : 3/31/2020 7:55 am : link
In comment 14854724 Torrag said:
Quote:
When 1 -3 Draft slots separate prospects in many cases there isn't an appreciable difference in grade. That is how this plays out between the 'top defenders' and the Top OT's. Remove the QB's, who don't factor into the equation at all at the top of the Draft for teams that already have theirs, and multiple OT's are in the Top 5 position players grouping they'd be evaluating.

Jeremiah for example has Simmons #3, Okudah at #5 and Becton at #6 with 1 QB in the mix.

Huddle(THR) has Okudah at #4, Simmons #6 and Wirfs at #7 with 2 QB's in the mix.

They're all right there bunched together in a tight knot. Factor in the investment in Jones and Barkley, the overwhelming impact the QB position has on a franchises fortunes and the impact OL improvement has on a running attack(ask Tennessee) and it's easy to see why OT should be the selection both on merit and roster building philosophy.


Those are great points Torrag. In most of the draft, I agree that players bunched closely are "close enough" so that need should factor in more strongly. If, for example, the consensus picks at numbers 33 to 38 are not playing positions of maximum team need but number 40 is, I would take that prospect ranked at 40 when picking at, say, 37.

But several sources I have seen suggest that the analysis above changes in the top 10. The traditional draft value chart, for one, places a massive premium on the picks at the very top of the draft. A series of very good articles I recently read concludes that, indeed, an analysis of the last 40 NFL drafts confirms that the likelihood of picking a truly elite player (as measured by all-pro, pro-bowl invitations, and Hall-of-Famers) starts highest a pick 1, then declines steeply to about pick 10, then the curve becomes much smoother.

Those analyses suggest to me that the difference between a player consistently rated (by the public commentators) between #2 and #5 overall in this draft (say, Simmons) is much more likely (in the draft we're always talking probabilities, not certainties) to develop into a blue chip player than a player (say, Becton) who is consistently rated between #6 and #14. A bonus factor in that comparison is that success-by-position data I have read (one example below) suggests first-round linebackers have the most success in the NFL (although offensive line 1st round picks do not do badly either). I concede, of course, that the Giants scouting department may not agree with the public commentators, but none of us know what they think or have access to the data they have, so we can't factor in that important unknowable element into our (the fan's) thinking.

In my personal dream all this becomes moot if we can trade down to the bottom of the top 10 in order to stockpile additional day 2 (most importantly) and day 3 picks, and get the offensive lineman we need without reaching. But I am not at all confident the Giants will have the opportunity to trade down.


Bleacher Report on 1st Round Success by Position - ( New Window )
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