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4 NYG Isiah Simmons LB Clemson “If Detroit stayed at No. 3 and took Okudah, I really do feel like GM Dave Gettleman would've traded back for the first time in his career. Instead, the Giants take the highest-graded player on their board. While offensive tackle is arguably their greatest need, they can also use a defender to match up against tight ends/big slot receivers on key third downs, blitz (both off the edge and through the A gap), and one who can play the deep-half (as a safety) in coverage. Simmons can do all of those things. You can't just take an OT just to take one and Gettleman has never used a first-round pick on an offensive lineman.” |
I still firmly believe that NONE of the tackles in this draft are top 5 picks, maybe 2 are borderline top 10 picks. It makes no sense to reach at #4 for a tackle.
IF Simmons/Young are gone at 4, as I've said earlier, I'm all for trading back and picking one of the tackles.
Anyone else needs to be a trade down
Actually it is:
(Name any player) -Is a throw a remote at the TV pick” - 40% of BBI
Unless they’re higher on Gates than many here are (I have zero idea on that)?
Throw the remote, maybe. A Jerry Reese pick, definitely.
Sounds like Giants believe Martinez can do that job.
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As much as I would love a blue chip OT, The thought that someone can actually cover a TE for the first time in decades, that a TE won’t continue to kill us with key first downs over and over again, makes me all in on this guy, flaws notwithstanding.
Sounds like Giants believe Martinez can do that job.
Haven’t heard/read that he could
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Is a throw a remote at the TV pick” - 40% of BBI
Throw the remote, maybe. A Jerry Reese pick, definitely.
That generalization is wrong. Gettleman drafted Barkley 2nd overall, because he was the best player available. Reese drafted for need for than BPA in my opinion.
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As much as I would love a blue chip OT, The thought that someone can actually cover a TE for the first time in decades, that a TE won’t continue to kill us with key first downs over and over again, makes me all in on this guy, flaws notwithstanding.
Sounds like Giants believe Martinez can do that job.
Except that Martinez isn’t good in coverage.
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As much as I would love a blue chip OT, The thought that someone can actually cover a TE for the first time in decades, that a TE won’t continue to kill us with key first downs over and over again, makes me all in on this guy, flaws notwithstanding.
Sounds like Giants believe Martinez can do that job.
Might even be a weapon on screens!
as rational when his mock has 4 OTs taken in the next 10 picks after the Giants pick?
If the first OT off the board wasn't projected until the back half of Rd 1 or the beginning of Rd 2 then that would have some basis.
Yes/No/Maybe?
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As much as I would love a blue chip OT, The thought that someone can actually cover a TE for the first time in decades, that a TE won’t continue to kill us with key first downs over and over again, makes me all in on this guy, flaws notwithstanding.
Sounds like Giants believe Martinez can do that job.
I think Martinez thinks he can do it. He sort of said he is better than what people are saying. He said it, not the Giants.
The draft is far to circumstantial and no one knows what factors are in play within the war room to make these decisions.
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In comment 14855943 JoeyBigBlue said:
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Is a throw a remote at the TV pick” - 40% of BBI
Throw the remote, maybe. A Jerry Reese pick, definitely.
That generalization is wrong. Gettleman drafted Barkley 2nd overall, because he was the best player available. Reese drafted for need for than BPA in my opinion.
Wilson, Engram, Apple. Reese loved the uber athlete. The combine champs like Damontre Moore, Adrian Robinson (the JPP of TEs!), Travis Beckam, Ramese Barden and Jaron Holsey. Simmons is another. Now, he could be a good football player but he's a Reese pick for sure.
One thing that I respectfully disagree with (and something I've read quite a bit over the last few weeks) is that the Giants have ignored the defense under DG.
I think the contrary is true, the Giants have invested a significant amount of draft capital on defense in his 2 offseasons.
Whether or not all of those draft picks work out is another discussion.
The draft is far to circumstantial and no one knows what factors are in play within the war room to make these decisions.
Agree that specific drafts aren't linked in nature so I see where you are going with this view. But I don't think it is as far as saying absolutely ridiculous just because it has been "never" on both.
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Simmons and Ruiz, then say, OT and Ruiz. If we continue to ignore defensive playmakers in round 1, defense will continue to be average/below average.
One thing that I respectfully disagree with (and something I've read quite a bit over the last few weeks) is that the Giants have ignored the defense under DG.
I think the contrary is true, the Giants have invested a significant amount of draft capital on defense in his 2 offseasons.
Whether or not all of those draft picks work out is another discussion.
Blitz - assume the reference is mostly related to passing on defensive playmakers Bradley Chubb with #2 pick and Josh Allen with #6 pick in back to back drafts.
Exactly. And why I think Wills is easily the best OT.
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In comment 14855952 BillT said:
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In comment 14855943 JoeyBigBlue said:
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Is a throw a remote at the TV pick” - 40% of BBI
Throw the remote, maybe. A Jerry Reese pick, definitely.
That generalization is wrong. Gettleman drafted Barkley 2nd overall, because he was the best player available. Reese drafted for need for than BPA in my opinion.
Wilson, Engram, Apple. Reese loved the uber athlete. The combine champs like Damontre Moore, Adrian Robinson (the JPP of TEs!), Travis Beckam, Ramese Barden and Jaron Holsey. Simmons is another. Now, he could be a good football player but he's a Reese pick for sure.
Except Simmons’ game tape matches his athleticism.
I know he played safety most frequently but IMO perhaps his greatest upside nobody really considers is putting him on the edge 50%+ of the time. Yes he can also be a weapon in coverage, so if I was coaching him half the time I'd deploy him as Vic Beasley, the other half I'd have him in coverage whether it's 1 on 1 vs. tough TE's like Ertz, or zones over the middle of the field.
Clemson LB Isaiah Simmons Highlights ᴴᴰ - ( New Window )
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Simmons and Ruiz, then say, OT and Ruiz. If we continue to ignore defensive playmakers in round 1, defense will continue to be average/below average.
One thing that I respectfully disagree with (and something I've read quite a bit over the last few weeks) is that the Giants have ignored the defense under DG.
I think the contrary is true, the Giants have invested a significant amount of draft capital on defense in his 2 offseasons.
Whether or not all of those draft picks work out is another discussion.
This is spot on. DG has invested significantly more resources in the defense than the offense.
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In comment 14855948 ryanmkeane said:
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Simmons and Ruiz, then say, OT and Ruiz. If we continue to ignore defensive playmakers in round 1, defense will continue to be average/below average.
One thing that I respectfully disagree with (and something I've read quite a bit over the last few weeks) is that the Giants have ignored the defense under DG.
I think the contrary is true, the Giants have invested a significant amount of draft capital on defense in his 2 offseasons.
Whether or not all of those draft picks work out is another discussion.
Blitz - assume the reference is mostly related to passing on defensive playmakers Bradley Chubb with #2 pick and Josh Allen with #6 pick in back to back drafts.
Gotcha...but that reasoning conveniently leaves out back to back first rounders after the Jones pick on defense. (Not even bringing up the droves of other picks on that side of the ball after the first round)
I'm not saying anything DG has done in the draft was right or wrong move, but stating it the Giants have straight up ignored the D is disingenuous IMO.
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In comment 14855957 JoeyBigBlue said:
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In comment 14855952 BillT said:
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In comment 14855943 JoeyBigBlue said:
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Wilson, Engram, Apple. Reese loved the uber athlete. The combine champs like Damontre Moore, Adrian Robinson (the JPP of TEs!), Travis Beckam, Ramese Barden and Jaron Holsey. Simmons is another. Now, he could be a good football player but he's a Reese pick for sure.
Except Simmons’ game tape matches his athleticism.
Which is what I said but I've yet to find someone who can tell me for sure what position he plays.
This is spot on. DG has invested significantly more resources in the defense than the offense.
Significantly more resources is not the same as not ignoring the defense. Since he's been here his biggest FA contracts prior to this offseason were Solder and Tate. His top two picks were Barkley and Jones. Year one he also used his second round pick on O (Hernandez). I don't see the argument for significantly more resources on defense than offense although I agree it's a fallacy that he's ignored that side of the ball.
I agree with this, only because it speaks to his confidence in being able to find OL outside of the first round. Whether that confidence is warranted is another topic of conversation. Hernandez (2nd), Moton (2nd), Turner (3rd), Norwell (undrafted) etc.
The issue is whether another player is rated a row higher when you are at pick 4.
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the JPP of OTs.
Exactly. And why I think Wills is easily the best OT.
I too prefer technique and tape over Underwear Olympic champions at OT.
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This is spot on. DG has invested significantly more resources in the defense than the offense.
Significantly more resources is not the same as not ignoring the defense. Since he's been here his biggest FA contracts prior to this offseason were Solder and Tate. His top two picks were Barkley and Jones. Year one he also used his second round pick on O (Hernandez). I don't see the argument for significantly more resources on defense than offense although I agree it's a fallacy that he's ignored that side of the ball.
In his 2 drafts he's drafted 11 defensive players. He signed 3 top defensive players in FA this year plus the 3rd round pick for Leonard and the trades for Ogletree and Peppers and the Golden signing. The defense has been the focus.
No problem with Simmons as long as the HC and DC are on board with a plan to use him.
Would prefer the modest trade-down and select the LT of the future, if the trade is available.
just for arguments sake -- let's say:
Wirfs, Thomas, Simmons, Brown and Okudah are all there, all in the same row and equally graded at pick 4.
(assuming no trade down is offered) Who gets the nod then?
In his 2 drafts he's drafted 11 defensive players. He signed 3 top defensive players in FA this year plus the 3rd round pick for Leonard and the trades for Ogletree and Peppers and the Golden signing. The defense has been the focus.
Of course, trading for Peppers involved also acquiring Zeitler for Vernon and they let Landon Collins walk. Who are the three top defensive players? Martinez and Bradberry are two and if you're counting Fackrell you have to then count the signings on offense like Toilolo and Fleming. All that says is he hasn't ignored the defense which as I said I agree with. Not that he's used far more resources than he has on offense.
Premium resources were spent on offense. The #2 pick, the #6 pick, the Hernandez pick, making Solder the highest paid LT in football, giving Tate a sizable deal. I mean, they had less than $22M invested in the defense before this FA period.
just for arguments sake -- let's say:
Wirfs, Thomas, Simmons, Brown and Okudah are all there, all in the same row and equally graded at pick 4.
And I'm not convinced at all that Simmons is a high level pass rusher. I asked for this before to crickets, but if anyone can, please post a highlight clip of Simmons beating a high level NCAA OT for a sack. I'd be very curious to see it. All the sacks from Simmons I've seen come when he is unblocked and often in run and chase situations.
I too prefer technique and tape over Underwear Olympic champions at OT.
Gotcha...but that reasoning conveniently leaves out back to back first rounders after the Jones pick on defense. (Not even bringing up the droves of other picks on that side of the ball after the first round)
I'm not saying anything DG has done in the draft was right or wrong move, but stating it the Giants have straight up ignored the D is disingenuous IMO.
Very much agree. Defense has attempted to be addressed in free agency, trades and draft by DG. Just not with the first pick in last several years.
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In his 2 drafts he's drafted 11 defensive players. He signed 3 top defensive players in FA this year plus the 3rd round pick for Leonard and the trades for Ogletree and Peppers and the Golden signing. The defense has been the focus.
Of course, trading for Peppers involved also acquiring Zeitler for Vernon and they let Landon Collins walk. Who are the three top defensive players? Martinez and Bradberry are two and if you're counting Fackrell you have to then count the signings on offense like Toilolo and Fleming. All that says is he hasn't ignored the defense which as I said I agree with. Not that he's used far more resources than he has on offense.
Premium resources were spent on offense. The #2 pick, the #6 pick, the Hernandez pick, making Solder the highest paid LT in football, giving Tate a sizable deal. I mean, they had less than $22M invested in the defense before this FA period.
The low salary is a direct correlation to the large amount of draft resources spent on the defense, but don't let that get in the way of a narrative.
Once again, DG has spent literally the same number of 1st rounders on defense as he did offense. You can argue where, who, why all you want but saying that the defense has been glossed over is a straight up lie.
And really? Landon Collins and Vernon? Two players who the Giants are lucky they are not paying big bucks to...you are manipulating the past to prove a point.
At the end of the day we can argue the players taken and methods as bad moves if they don't work out..but for Christ sakes the defense has had a TON of players added to it over 2 offseasons...with everything from HIGH draft picks, to FAs and mid round picks.
They haven't put it together yet, and the product has been bad...but it wasn't ignored
I guess it depends on what you value more. I personally think that if you have a similar grade on those positions you have to go with the OT. Rarely do top flight OTs hit the FA marketing and then if they do they are the highest cost in FA. Its the same reasoning why QBs get pushed up, because of the cap cost and the positional value. We are in need of 2 OTs not just one. Looking back at past drafts when teams hit on an OL they seem to take a bigger jump than when teams hit on other positional players. most recently look at what Nelson did for the Colts. Its not one player that improves its multiple because of that one player.
I am not saying reach for an OT. If its not there its not there, just saying if you would take a guy at 6 what is that so different than 4. It seems that when the Giants pick in a draft they always seem to be one spot short of the Blue chips.
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what if Simmons is in the same row as some of the OLineman and the row above has all been taken -- that's the real hard one to answer -- who do you take then?
just for arguments sake -- let's say:
Wirfs, Thomas, Simmons, Brown and Okudah are all there, all in the same row and equally graded at pick 4.
It's gotta be Wirfs or Thomas in that situation.
Yep. If its not, then I would love to hear how the Tackle is being addressed otherwise for current & future.
At the end of the day we can argue the players taken and methods as bad moves if they don't work out..but for Christ sakes the defense has had a TON of players added to it over 2 offseasons...with everything from HIGH draft picks, to FAs and mid round picks.
They haven't put it together yet, and the product has been bad...but it wasn't ignored
Seems you didn't read my previous comments and you seem to be getting worked up about refuting a point I never made. I will state it again though so it's 100% clear. I agree it hasn't been ignored. I've said that now 3 times. In fact, my first comment was agreeing with yours! I'm simply refuting Bill's point that far more resources have been invested on defense than offense since DG got here.
And I'm not convinced at all that Simmons is a high level pass rusher. I asked for this before to crickets, but if anyone can, please post a highlight clip of Simmons beating a high level NCAA OT for a sack. I'd be very curious to see it. All the sacks from Simmons I've seen come when he is unblocked and often in run and chase situations.
Simmons rushed the passer 70 times last season and had 23 pressures. The highest pressure rate in college football. That counts for something even if it's a small sample size and doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be a high level pass rusher in the NFL.
I don't have Simmons clips to share but I have seen him bulldoze running backs and tight ends. Not quite what you're asking for but it's also not just him coming in unblocked.
at #4.
You have to think Graham is drooling over the potential of adding Simmons' to his D. Simmons is a perfect fit for what he was doing with Minkah Fitzpatrick. He was used at both safety spots, in the slot, playing boundary corner and even at SAM and WILL LB here and there early in the year. Fitzpatrick wasn't a good fit for some of those roles and it pissed him off hence the trade request but Simmons is perfect for it.
Fair points ryan.
I think almost every poster I read promoting OT at #4 does so with valid reasons, particularly with view that the value looks to be specifically there if all these top OTs are being projected in the top half of the draft anyway.
If Giants come to conclusion that these guys are just "adequate" and belong in much lower tiers, then by all means go with higher ranked non-OT guy. Just that there have been posters throwing out statements that there is an OT or bust faction on BBI but that isn't the case.
1) At 0:53, he beats a UNC running back for a sack on a very good play. That RB is #25, Javonte Williams, a sophomore.
2) This is the best pass rush job from Simmons I saw here. At 2:50, he beats Luke Fortner, #79 of Kentucky with a speed move. But note that Fortner is a converted guard, who was not expected to play tackle at the beginning of the season.
So I'm seeing a lot of run and chase and I think the case that Simmons is a high level pass rusher is completely unproven at this point. There's no evidence to pont to it.
Every Isaiah Simmons Sack, Interception, Tackle For Loss and Pass Breakup (2019) - All 22 Film - ( New Window )
So I'm seeing a lot of run and chase and I think the case that Simmons is a high level pass rusher is completely unproven at this point. - ( New Window )
Agree, plenty on here cite 8 sacks but have not watched the sacks. And he played against some crap teams in the ACC
If you’d “look no further,” then allI can say is thank goodness you’re not a scout...😎
I expect the chargers to make a move for Tua. Think they want someone to sell in LA just as much as they need a QB. Will be interesting to see if Detroit trades out with a prospect like Okudah or Young sitting there being a perfect fit for them.
I keep looking at Okudah as a guy some team thats close to winning it all/thinks they are close may make a move up to grab.
I could see San Fransico trying to make the move now that the have the 13th pick.
13, 31 and next years #1 for a team thats truley rebuilding would be a nice haul.
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In comment 14855973 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
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the JPP of OTs.
Exactly. And why I think Wills is easily the best OT.
I too prefer technique and tape over Underwear Olympic champions at OT.
100% agree with these guys! Wills has superior technique!
However, if the Giants were to eschew drafting their highest-graded OT at #4, and instead opted to draft a defender, they run the risk of not being able to make any significant upgrades to their offensive line in this draft. If drafting the BPA at #4 is their primary concern, without regard for need or positional value, and that BPA is a defender, who's to say it won't be a defender at #36, too? Or a WR, or CB, or DE? Who's to say we won't see a repeat of last year's draft, when they didn't draft an OT until the 7th round, and didn't bother to draft an OC at all?
The Giants have invested serious draft capital in a RB and a QB in two successive drafts. Isn't it time they invested comparable draft capital in their offensive line, too? Can they afford to subject their two core offensive players to sub-par O-Line play for another year? Can they also afford to put off preparing for "life after Solder" for another year?
I understand that the draft is not just about the current year. It should be about future years, too. But it seems to me that the Giants' future revolves around Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley, not just for this year, but for - hopefully - many years to come. In my view, the best way to insure a bright future for both of them is to stock up on players who make their lives easier, with premium talent across the board.
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against Ohio St and LSU ...the ACC was relatively weak this year and DC Venables is outstanding at exploiting opponents weaknesses; it was men against boys in many of the games. Frankly, Unless Chase Young falls, I hope they trade down and take a stud OT ... then we can take a starting center and LB from the big 10 with our next picks.
If you’d “look no further,” then allI can say is thank goodness you’re not a scout...😎
BB ...I agree ... I have zero skills in scouting ... but I have been to many ACC games and the play this year was really down ... I’m just saying watching Simmons against this level of competition needs to kept in perspective.
Might even be a weapon on screens!
+1
Simmons' is projected to be the perfect player to cover tight ends and running backs, a constant problem for the Giants' defense. Moreover, he is not a liability against the run or in going after the QB. Indeed, a player like Simmons fits the trend in the NFL to get pressure on the QB through mis-direction rather than simply pushing the pocket and sending in rushers off the edge. See link below. If he works out (always a legitimate question about every player in the draft - there are no "sure things"), he accordingly would help us in our weakest defensive area - getting after the passer.
So if Young is gone and we don't have a dance partner to trade down with, everything I have read suggests that Simmons is a good choice. We would then need to address o-line needs later in the draft.
Defensive Obfuscation from Hogs Heaven - ( New Window )
Can you guarantee the other guys up for the pick are too?