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Schneier, CBS Sports: Simmons at 4: His reasoning.

Big Blue '56 : 4/1/2020 9:57 am
DISCLAIMER: Yes, these are nothing more than exercises, guesses. But what else that’s relevant to the draft are we to discuss?


Quote:


4 NYG Isiah Simmons LB Clemson

“If Detroit stayed at No. 3 and took Okudah, I really do feel like GM Dave Gettleman would've traded back for the first time in his career. Instead, the Giants take the highest-graded player on their board.

While offensive tackle is arguably their greatest need, they can also use a defender to match up against tight ends/big slot receivers on key third downs, blitz (both off the edge and through the A gap), and one who can play the deep-half (as a safety) in coverage. Simmons can do all of those things. You can't just take an OT just to take one and Gettleman has never used a first-round pick on an offensive lineman.”


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As I’ve stated several times,  
Big Blue '56 : 4/1/2020 10:05 am : link
As much as I would love a blue chip OT, The thought that someone can actually cover a TE for the first time in decades, that a TE won’t continue to kill us with key first downs over and over again, makes me all in on this guy, flaws notwithstanding.
fine with Simmons at 4  
ryanmkeane : 4/1/2020 10:09 am : link
so long as we address OL in this draft and don't wait until round 4 to do it.
I believe Simmons is a better player than any of the OT  
Rjanyg : 4/1/2020 10:09 am : link
You can draft for need and take an OT. I don't think anybody would kill DG for doing that. However, we also have an opportunity to improve the defense with Simmons which was far worse than our offense and the main reason we sucked last year.

I have a feeling  
ryanmkeane : 4/1/2020 10:10 am : link
DG will use our late 3rd and early 4th to move up a significant amount of spots in the 3rd if there's a C or OL still there
This way of thinking  
Allen in CNJ : 4/1/2020 10:11 am : link
and approach simply makes the most sense. You can get a tackle later, or if you really want to, you can trade up in round 2 and get one of the tackles that will slip.

I still firmly believe that NONE of the tackles in this draft are top 5 picks, maybe 2 are borderline top 10 picks. It makes no sense to reach at #4 for a tackle.

IF Simmons/Young are gone at 4, as I've said earlier, I'm all for trading back and picking one of the tackles.
Or Wills  
Big Blue Hokie : 4/1/2020 10:12 am : link
I’m fine with Simmons or Wills at 4.

Anyone else needs to be a trade down
“Simmons  
JoeyBigBlue : 4/1/2020 10:12 am : link
Is a throw a remote at the TV pick” - 40% of BBI
RE: “Simmons  
section125 : 4/1/2020 10:18 am : link
In comment 14855943 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
Is a throw a remote at the TV pick” - 40% of BBI


Actually it is:

(Name any player) -Is a throw a remote at the TV pick” - 40% of BBI
I'd rather  
ryanmkeane : 4/1/2020 10:18 am : link
Simmons and Ruiz, then say, OT and Ruiz. If we continue to ignore defensive playmakers in round 1, defense will continue to be average/below average.
That being said  
ryanmkeane : 4/1/2020 10:20 am : link
there is a gaping hole at RT right now, and it appears the way FA was handled, we have our eyes set on OT at 4, or in a trade back
RE: That being said  
Big Blue '56 : 4/1/2020 10:24 am : link
In comment 14855949 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
there is a gaping hole at RT right now, and it appears the way FA was handled, we have our eyes set on OT at 4, or in a trade back


Unless they’re higher on Gates than many here are (I have zero idea on that)?
RE: “Simmons  
BillT : 4/1/2020 10:26 am : link
In comment 14855943 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
Is a throw a remote at the TV pick” - 40% of BBI

Throw the remote, maybe. A Jerry Reese pick, definitely.
RE: As I’ve stated several times,  
MeadowlandsMike : 4/1/2020 10:26 am : link
In comment 14855932 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
As much as I would love a blue chip OT, The thought that someone can actually cover a TE for the first time in decades, that a TE won’t continue to kill us with key first downs over and over again, makes me all in on this guy, flaws notwithstanding.


Sounds like Giants believe Martinez can do that job.
RE: RE: As I’ve stated several times,  
Big Blue '56 : 4/1/2020 10:28 am : link
In comment 14855953 MeadowlandsMike said:
Quote:
In comment 14855932 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


As much as I would love a blue chip OT, The thought that someone can actually cover a TE for the first time in decades, that a TE won’t continue to kill us with key first downs over and over again, makes me all in on this guy, flaws notwithstanding.



Sounds like Giants believe Martinez can do that job.


Haven’t heard/read that he could
At least anywhere  
Big Blue '56 : 4/1/2020 10:28 am : link
as efficient as Simmons?
another thing to consider  
ryanmkeane : 4/1/2020 10:30 am : link
Simmons seems to be a true leader/character type guy. I'm sure DG/Judge value that extremely high in the 1st
RE: RE: “Simmons  
JoeyBigBlue : 4/1/2020 10:30 am : link
In comment 14855952 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 14855943 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


Is a throw a remote at the TV pick” - 40% of BBI


Throw the remote, maybe. A Jerry Reese pick, definitely.


That generalization is wrong. Gettleman drafted Barkley 2nd overall, because he was the best player available. Reese drafted for need for than BPA in my opinion.
RE: RE: As I’ve stated several times,  
JoeyBigBlue : 4/1/2020 10:31 am : link
In comment 14855953 MeadowlandsMike said:
Quote:
In comment 14855932 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


As much as I would love a blue chip OT, The thought that someone can actually cover a TE for the first time in decades, that a TE won’t continue to kill us with key first downs over and over again, makes me all in on this guy, flaws notwithstanding.



Sounds like Giants believe Martinez can do that job.


Except that Martinez isn’t good in coverage.
RE: RE: As I’ve stated several times,  
GoDeep13 : 4/1/2020 10:32 am : link
In comment 14855953 MeadowlandsMike said:
Quote:
In comment 14855932 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


As much as I would love a blue chip OT, The thought that someone can actually cover a TE for the first time in decades, that a TE won’t continue to kill us with key first downs over and over again, makes me all in on this guy, flaws notwithstanding.



Sounds like Giants believe Martinez can do that job.
where do you get that idea? Martinez isn’t good in coverage.
And chase down mobile QBs  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 4/1/2020 10:34 am : link
And make tackles sideline to sideline, stopping frigging sweeps that kill us all year but yet Shumur couldn't call one successful sweep to Engrams or a street FA.

Might even be a weapon on screens!
Isn't it a tad bit disingenuous to suggest  
LBH15 : 4/1/2020 10:35 am : link
Quote:
"You can't just take an OT just to take one...”


as rational when his mock has 4 OTs taken in the next 10 picks after the Giants pick?

If the first OT off the board wasn't projected until the back half of Rd 1 or the beginning of Rd 2 then that would have some basis.

Yes/No/Maybe?
RE: RE: As I’ve stated several times,  
section125 : 4/1/2020 10:35 am : link
In comment 14855953 MeadowlandsMike said:
Quote:
In comment 14855932 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


As much as I would love a blue chip OT, The thought that someone can actually cover a TE for the first time in decades, that a TE won’t continue to kill us with key first downs over and over again, makes me all in on this guy, flaws notwithstanding.



Sounds like Giants believe Martinez can do that job.


I think Martinez thinks he can do it. He sort of said he is better than what people are saying. He said it, not the Giants.
I think its absolutely ridiculous to use past draft history  
Brown Recluse : 4/1/2020 10:37 am : link
such as "Gettleman has never traded back" or "Gettleman has never drafted an OT in round 1" as some kind of reasoning for what might happen in the current year.

The draft is far to circumstantial and no one knows what factors are in play within the war room to make these decisions.
RE: RE: RE: “Simmons  
BillT : 4/1/2020 10:37 am : link
In comment 14855957 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14855952 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 14855943 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


Is a throw a remote at the TV pick” - 40% of BBI


Throw the remote, maybe. A Jerry Reese pick, definitely.



That generalization is wrong. Gettleman drafted Barkley 2nd overall, because he was the best player available. Reese drafted for need for than BPA in my opinion.

Wilson, Engram, Apple. Reese loved the uber athlete. The combine champs like Damontre Moore, Adrian Robinson (the JPP of TEs!), Travis Beckam, Ramese Barden and Jaron Holsey. Simmons is another. Now, he could be a good football player but he's a Reese pick for sure.
RE: I'd rather  
bLiTz 2k : 4/1/2020 10:44 am : link
In comment 14855948 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Simmons and Ruiz, then say, OT and Ruiz. If we continue to ignore defensive playmakers in round 1, defense will continue to be average/below average.


One thing that I respectfully disagree with (and something I've read quite a bit over the last few weeks) is that the Giants have ignored the defense under DG.

I think the contrary is true, the Giants have invested a significant amount of draft capital on defense in his 2 offseasons.

Whether or not all of those draft picks work out is another discussion.
RE: I think its absolutely ridiculous to use past draft history  
LBH15 : 4/1/2020 10:44 am : link
In comment 14855967 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
such as "Gettleman has never traded back" or "Gettleman has never drafted an OT in round 1" as some kind of reasoning for what might happen in the current year.

The draft is far to circumstantial and no one knows what factors are in play within the war room to make these decisions.


Agree that specific drafts aren't linked in nature so I see where you are going with this view. But I don't think it is as far as saying absolutely ridiculous just because it has been "never" on both.
Wirfs and Becton are  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 4/1/2020 10:45 am : link
the JPP of OTs.
RE: RE: I'd rather  
LBH15 : 4/1/2020 10:47 am : link
In comment 14855971 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:
In comment 14855948 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


Simmons and Ruiz, then say, OT and Ruiz. If we continue to ignore defensive playmakers in round 1, defense will continue to be average/below average.



One thing that I respectfully disagree with (and something I've read quite a bit over the last few weeks) is that the Giants have ignored the defense under DG.

I think the contrary is true, the Giants have invested a significant amount of draft capital on defense in his 2 offseasons.

Whether or not all of those draft picks work out is another discussion.


Blitz - assume the reference is mostly related to passing on defensive playmakers Bradley Chubb with #2 pick and Josh Allen with #6 pick in back to back drafts.
RE: Wirfs and Becton are  
BillT : 4/1/2020 10:47 am : link
In comment 14855973 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
the JPP of OTs.

Exactly. And why I think Wills is easily the best OT.
RE: RE: RE: RE: “Simmons  
JoeyBigBlue : 4/1/2020 10:47 am : link
In comment 14855968 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 14855957 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


In comment 14855952 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 14855943 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


Is a throw a remote at the TV pick” - 40% of BBI


Throw the remote, maybe. A Jerry Reese pick, definitely.



That generalization is wrong. Gettleman drafted Barkley 2nd overall, because he was the best player available. Reese drafted for need for than BPA in my opinion.


Wilson, Engram, Apple. Reese loved the uber athlete. The combine champs like Damontre Moore, Adrian Robinson (the JPP of TEs!), Travis Beckam, Ramese Barden and Jaron Holsey. Simmons is another. Now, he could be a good football player but he's a Reese pick for sure.


Except Simmons’ game tape matches his athleticism.
For those anti-Simmons watch his highlights, specifically pass rush  
Eric on Li : 4/1/2020 10:48 am : link
The guy is explosive on contact, bends around the edge, and obviously as fast as you would expect a guy with a sub 4.4 to be.

I know he played safety most frequently but IMO perhaps his greatest upside nobody really considers is putting him on the edge 50%+ of the time. Yes he can also be a weapon in coverage, so if I was coaching him half the time I'd deploy him as Vic Beasley, the other half I'd have him in coverage whether it's 1 on 1 vs. tough TE's like Ertz, or zones over the middle of the field.
Clemson LB Isaiah Simmons Highlights ᴴᴰ - ( New Window )
RE: RE: I'd rather  
BillT : 4/1/2020 10:50 am : link
In comment 14855971 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:
In comment 14855948 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


Simmons and Ruiz, then say, OT and Ruiz. If we continue to ignore defensive playmakers in round 1, defense will continue to be average/below average.



One thing that I respectfully disagree with (and something I've read quite a bit over the last few weeks) is that the Giants have ignored the defense under DG.

I think the contrary is true, the Giants have invested a significant amount of draft capital on defense in his 2 offseasons.

Whether or not all of those draft picks work out is another discussion.

This is spot on. DG has invested significantly more resources in the defense than the offense.
Contrary to some here  
lugnut : 4/1/2020 10:52 am : link
I DO think it's significant DG has never drafted OL in Rd 1. I don't think that's likely to change especially since it would be the #4 pick in the whole draft. I think it's Simmons then best Center.
RE: RE: RE: I'd rather  
bLiTz 2k : 4/1/2020 10:53 am : link
In comment 14855976 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14855971 bLiTz 2k said:


Quote:


In comment 14855948 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


Simmons and Ruiz, then say, OT and Ruiz. If we continue to ignore defensive playmakers in round 1, defense will continue to be average/below average.



One thing that I respectfully disagree with (and something I've read quite a bit over the last few weeks) is that the Giants have ignored the defense under DG.

I think the contrary is true, the Giants have invested a significant amount of draft capital on defense in his 2 offseasons.

Whether or not all of those draft picks work out is another discussion.



Blitz - assume the reference is mostly related to passing on defensive playmakers Bradley Chubb with #2 pick and Josh Allen with #6 pick in back to back drafts.


Gotcha...but that reasoning conveniently leaves out back to back first rounders after the Jones pick on defense. (Not even bringing up the droves of other picks on that side of the ball after the first round)

I'm not saying anything DG has done in the draft was right or wrong move, but stating it the Giants have straight up ignored the D is disingenuous IMO.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: “Simmons  
BillT : 4/1/2020 10:53 am : link
In comment 14855978 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14855968 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 14855957 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


In comment 14855952 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 14855943 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:




Wilson, Engram, Apple. Reese loved the uber athlete. The combine champs like Damontre Moore, Adrian Robinson (the JPP of TEs!), Travis Beckam, Ramese Barden and Jaron Holsey. Simmons is another. Now, he could be a good football player but he's a Reese pick for sure.


Except Simmons’ game tape matches his athleticism.

Which is what I said but I've yet to find someone who can tell me for sure what position he plays.
RE: RE: RE: I'd rather  
Strahan91 : 4/1/2020 10:53 am : link
In comment 14855983 BillT said:
Quote:

This is spot on. DG has invested significantly more resources in the defense than the offense.

Significantly more resources is not the same as not ignoring the defense. Since he's been here his biggest FA contracts prior to this offseason were Solder and Tate. His top two picks were Barkley and Jones. Year one he also used his second round pick on O (Hernandez). I don't see the argument for significantly more resources on defense than offense although I agree it's a fallacy that he's ignored that side of the ball.
I want the Giants to draft their highest graded prospect  
Milton : 4/1/2020 10:54 am : link
I'm hoping it's an OT because they need an OT so much more than they need a LB/S it's not even close. And they don't need more youth on defense. They just need it to play smart.
RE: Contrary to some here  
Strahan91 : 4/1/2020 10:57 am : link
In comment 14855986 lugnut said:
Quote:
I DO think it's significant DG has never drafted OL in Rd 1. I don't think that's likely to change especially since it would be the #4 pick in the whole draft. I think it's Simmons then best Center.

I agree with this, only because it speaks to his confidence in being able to find OL outside of the first round. Whether that confidence is warranted is another topic of conversation. Hernandez (2nd), Moton (2nd), Turner (3rd), Norwell (undrafted) etc.
As far as there not being OTs worth a top 5 pick  
gidiefor : Mod : 4/1/2020 10:57 am : link
I totally disagree with this notion. There are some very good OT options in this draft worthy of a top 5 pick and better than we've seen in an NFL draft in sometime.

The issue is whether another player is rated a row higher when you are at pick 4.
RE: RE: Wirfs and Becton are  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 4/1/2020 11:01 am : link
In comment 14855977 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 14855973 Coach Red Beaulieu said:


Quote:


the JPP of OTs.


Exactly. And why I think Wills is easily the best OT.

I too prefer technique and tape over Underwear Olympic champions at OT.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd rather  
BillT : 4/1/2020 11:01 am : link
In comment 14855991 Strahan91 said:
Quote:
In comment 14855983 BillT said:


Quote:



This is spot on. DG has invested significantly more resources in the defense than the offense.


Significantly more resources is not the same as not ignoring the defense. Since he's been here his biggest FA contracts prior to this offseason were Solder and Tate. His top two picks were Barkley and Jones. Year one he also used his second round pick on O (Hernandez). I don't see the argument for significantly more resources on defense than offense although I agree it's a fallacy that he's ignored that side of the ball.

In his 2 drafts he's drafted 11 defensive players. He signed 3 top defensive players in FA this year plus the 3rd round pick for Leonard and the trades for Ogletree and Peppers and the Golden signing. The defense has been the focus.
Love the general buy-in that Simmons is better than the OTs  
Bob in Newburgh : 4/1/2020 11:02 am : link
Somebody with time on his hands tells you that the orange is better than the apple and the list worship begins.

No problem with Simmons as long as the HC and DC are on board with a plan to use him.

Would prefer the modest trade-down and select the LT of the future, if the trade is available.
also - another hard question is --  
gidiefor : Mod : 4/1/2020 11:05 am : link
what if Simmons is in the same row as some of the OLineman and the row above has all been taken -- that's the real hard one to answer -- who do you take then?

just for arguments sake -- let's say:

Wirfs, Thomas, Simmons, Brown and Okudah are all there, all in the same row and equally graded at pick 4.

(assuming no trade down is offered) Who gets the nod then?


RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd rather  
Strahan91 : 4/1/2020 11:10 am : link
In comment 14856004 BillT said:
Quote:


In his 2 drafts he's drafted 11 defensive players. He signed 3 top defensive players in FA this year plus the 3rd round pick for Leonard and the trades for Ogletree and Peppers and the Golden signing. The defense has been the focus.

Of course, trading for Peppers involved also acquiring Zeitler for Vernon and they let Landon Collins walk. Who are the three top defensive players? Martinez and Bradberry are two and if you're counting Fackrell you have to then count the signings on offense like Toilolo and Fleming. All that says is he hasn't ignored the defense which as I said I agree with. Not that he's used far more resources than he has on offense.

Premium resources were spent on offense. The #2 pick, the #6 pick, the Hernandez pick, making Solder the highest paid LT in football, giving Tate a sizable deal. I mean, they had less than $22M invested in the defense before this FA period.
RE: also - another hard question is --  
Milton : 4/1/2020 11:14 am : link
In comment 14856009 gidiefor said:
Quote:
what if Simmons is in the same row as some of the OLineman and the row above has all been taken -- that's the real hard one to answer -- who do you take then?

just for arguments sake -- let's say:

Wirfs, Thomas, Simmons, Brown and Okudah are all there, all in the same row and equally graded at pick 4.
It's gotta be Wirfs or Thomas in that situation.
With all the needs this team has, why would we duplicate Peppers?  
cosmicj : 4/1/2020 11:15 am : link
Because that's the role Simmons would play.

And I'm not convinced at all that Simmons is a high level pass rusher. I asked for this before to crickets, but if anyone can, please post a highlight clip of Simmons beating a high level NCAA OT for a sack. I'd be very curious to see it. All the sacks from Simmons I've seen come when he is unblocked and often in run and chase situations.
RE: RE: RE: Wirfs and Becton are  
Milton : 4/1/2020 11:15 am : link
In comment 14856003 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:

I too prefer technique and tape over Underwear Olympic champions at OT.
What about when choosing a date for the prom?
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd rather  
LBH15 : 4/1/2020 11:18 am : link
In comment 14855987 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:


Gotcha...but that reasoning conveniently leaves out back to back first rounders after the Jones pick on defense. (Not even bringing up the droves of other picks on that side of the ball after the first round)

I'm not saying anything DG has done in the draft was right or wrong move, but stating it the Giants have straight up ignored the D is disingenuous IMO.


Very much agree. Defense has attempted to be addressed in free agency, trades and draft by DG. Just not with the first pick in last several years.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd rather  
bLiTz 2k : 4/1/2020 11:20 am : link
In comment 14856022 Strahan91 said:
Quote:
In comment 14856004 BillT said:


Quote:




In his 2 drafts he's drafted 11 defensive players. He signed 3 top defensive players in FA this year plus the 3rd round pick for Leonard and the trades for Ogletree and Peppers and the Golden signing. The defense has been the focus.


Of course, trading for Peppers involved also acquiring Zeitler for Vernon and they let Landon Collins walk. Who are the three top defensive players? Martinez and Bradberry are two and if you're counting Fackrell you have to then count the signings on offense like Toilolo and Fleming. All that says is he hasn't ignored the defense which as I said I agree with. Not that he's used far more resources than he has on offense.

Premium resources were spent on offense. The #2 pick, the #6 pick, the Hernandez pick, making Solder the highest paid LT in football, giving Tate a sizable deal. I mean, they had less than $22M invested in the defense before this FA period.


The low salary is a direct correlation to the large amount of draft resources spent on the defense, but don't let that get in the way of a narrative.

Once again, DG has spent literally the same number of 1st rounders on defense as he did offense. You can argue where, who, why all you want but saying that the defense has been glossed over is a straight up lie.

And really? Landon Collins and Vernon? Two players who the Giants are lucky they are not paying big bucks to...you are manipulating the past to prove a point.

At the end of the day we can argue the players taken and methods as bad moves if they don't work out..but for Christ sakes the defense has had a TON of players added to it over 2 offseasons...with everything from HIGH draft picks, to FAs and mid round picks.

They haven't put it together yet, and the product has been bad...but it wasn't ignored
I am curious to hear how people rank the top 8  
Rudy5757 : 4/1/2020 11:21 am : link
positional players. I dont think there are many that dispute the top 2 of Young and Okudah. But what are the next 6 and how much different are they in ranking? If you look at many of the different rankings there are similar grades from WR, OT, DT & Simmons. I have seen Simmons fall out of the top as well as a variety of players projected to the Giants from different WRs, different OTs, Simmons and even DT Brown.

I guess it depends on what you value more. I personally think that if you have a similar grade on those positions you have to go with the OT. Rarely do top flight OTs hit the FA marketing and then if they do they are the highest cost in FA. Its the same reasoning why QBs get pushed up, because of the cap cost and the positional value. We are in need of 2 OTs not just one. Looking back at past drafts when teams hit on an OL they seem to take a bigger jump than when teams hit on other positional players. most recently look at what Nelson did for the Colts. Its not one player that improves its multiple because of that one player.

I am not saying reach for an OT. If its not there its not there, just saying if you would take a guy at 6 what is that so different than 4. It seems that when the Giants pick in a draft they always seem to be one spot short of the Blue chips.
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