Schneier, CBS Sports: Simmons at 4: His reasoning.

In comment 14856031 Milton said:

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In comment 14856009 gidiefor said: Quote: what if Simmons is in the same row as some of the OLineman and the row above has all been taken -- that's the real hard one to answer -- who do you take then? just for arguments sake -- let's say: Wirfs, Thomas, Simmons, Brown and Okudah are all there, all in the same row and equally graded at pick 4. It's gotta be Wirfs or Thomas in that situation.

Yep. If its not, then I would love to hear how the Tackle is being addressed otherwise for current & future.

my point regarding DG + defense...what i meant was, he hasn't used either of the top 10 picks so far on defense, and hasn't really spent premium FA dollars on defense. Lawrence looks to be an awesome pick, and if Baker takes a step forward this year, that's great too...i just mean in general, he had the chance to draft a defensive game wrecker in both 2018 (Chubb) and 2019 (Allen), and passed...now I am somewhat happy that he did that. But ONCE he did that, you can't continue to ignore defense with top premium picks. Sooner or later it will catch up with you. Making nice, solid, value FA signings is great, but you have to have some top tier talent on the defense as well. Right now we really don't have that, except for Lawrence and Bradberry, with the hopes that our young draft picks from the later rounds make the leap.

would make our defense so much more effective as to matchups and overall playmakers. I'm all for taking a stud OT if they have conviction, it's been far too long where we just haven't gotten the OL right. But the worst thing we could do is take an "adequate" OL at 4, vs passing up the pro bowl talent that Simmons could be at multiple positions, wherever he does line up.

In comment 14856044 bLiTz 2k said:

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At the end of the day we can argue the players taken and methods as bad moves if they don't work out..but for Christ sakes the defense has had a TON of players added to it over 2 offseasons...with everything from HIGH draft picks, to FAs and mid round picks. They haven't put it together yet, and the product has been bad...but it wasn't ignored

Seems you didn't read my previous comments and you seem to be getting worked up about refuting a point I never made. I will state it again though so it's 100% clear. I agree it hasn't been ignored. I've said that now 3 times. In fact, my first comment was agreeing with yours! I'm simply refuting Bill's point that far more resources have been invested on defense than offense since DG got here.

In comment 14856032 cosmicj said:

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Because that's the role Simmons would play. And I'm not convinced at all that Simmons is a high level pass rusher. I asked for this before to crickets, but if anyone can, please post a highlight clip of Simmons beating a high level NCAA OT for a sack. I'd be very curious to see it. All the sacks from Simmons I've seen come when he is unblocked and often in run and chase situations.

Simmons rushed the passer 70 times last season and had 23 pressures. The highest pressure rate in college football. That counts for something even if it's a small sample size and doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be a high level pass rusher in the NFL.

I don't have Simmons clips to share but I have seen him bulldoze running backs and tight ends. Not quite what you're asking for but it's also not just him coming in unblocked.

to me is the prototypical defensive player who the "modern NFL" should be targeting. Especially with the way we've loaded up on DL....Simmons roaming free would be a sight to see every Sunday

I'm no expert but watching Simmons highlights his closing speed makes me drool. QB's thinks they have extra time and he closes the last couple of steps in a flash. Not sure how much of that gets negated with better competition at the next level. It wold be exciting to have a defensive play maker with that speed, but again don't know how well he translates rushing the passer with better competition and blocking.

the pick is more likely to be Simmons or Brown and not an Offensive Lineman or CB, so it's going to be interesting what happens - especially with Judge, Garrett, and Graham in the room

at #4.

In comment 14856066 gidiefor said:

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the pick is more likely to be Simmons or Brown and not an Offensive Lineman or CB, so it's going to be interesting what happens - especially with Judge, Garrett, and Graham in the room

You have to think Graham is drooling over the potential of adding Simmons' to his D. Simmons is a perfect fit for what he was doing with Minkah Fitzpatrick. He was used at both safety spots, in the slot, playing boundary corner and even at SAM and WILL LB here and there early in the year. Fitzpatrick wasn't a good fit for some of those roles and it pissed him off hence the trade request but Simmons is perfect for it.

In comment 14856052 ryanmkeane said:

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would make our defense so much more effective as to matchups and overall playmakers. I'm all for taking a stud OT if they have conviction, it's been far too long where we just haven't gotten the OL right. But the worst thing we could do is take an "adequate" OL at 4, vs passing up the pro bowl talent that Simmons could be at multiple positions, wherever he does line up.

Fair points ryan.

I think almost every poster I read promoting OT at #4 does so with valid reasons, particularly with view that the value looks to be specifically there if all these top OTs are being projected in the top half of the draft anyway.

If Giants come to conclusion that these guys are just "adequate" and belong in much lower tiers, then by all means go with higher ranked non-OT guy. Just that there have been posters throwing out statements that there is an OT or bust faction on BBI but that isn't the case.

Thanks for the response. I'll see if I can dig some up.

Obviously, Simmons athleticism just jumps off the screen. Tremendous speed and quickness. Many of his sacks and TFLs are unblocked though. Simmons beats two blocks in this highlight reel:

1) At 0:53, he beats a UNC running back for a sack on a very good play. That RB is #25, Javonte Williams, a sophomore.
2) This is the best pass rush job from Simmons I saw here. At 2:50, he beats Luke Fortner, #79 of Kentucky with a speed move. But note that Fortner is a converted guard, who was not expected to play tackle at the beginning of the season.

So I'm seeing a lot of run and chase and I think the case that Simmons is a high level pass rusher is completely unproven at this point. There's no evidence to pont to it.
Every Isaiah Simmons Sack, Interception, Tackle For Loss and Pass Breakup (2019) - All 22 Film - ( New Window )

would not surprise me at all.. He took Barkley because of his ridiculous talents over Chubb, so if they see Simmons as the defensive Barkley he will take him over an OT

In comment 14856104 cosmicj said:

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So I'm seeing a lot of run and chase and I think the case that Simmons is a high level pass rusher is completely unproven at this point. - ( New Window )

Agree, plenty on here cite 8 sacks but have not watched the sacks. And he played against some crap teams in the ACC

who have Simmons as the 2nd best defensive player behind Young in the draft, 3rd overall behind Young and Burrow. Its gonna be interesting if they think there's a franchise LT out of Wirfs, Becton, Willis or Thomas. You can say all you want "anyone would be an upgrade" which yes absolutely, however at 4 you're not picking for an "upgrade". You're picking for a potential hall of famer.

against Ohio St and LSU ...the ACC was relatively weak this year and DC Venables is outstanding at exploiting opponents weaknesses; it was men against boys in many of the games. Frankly, Unless Chase Young falls, I hope they trade down and take a stud OT ... then we can take a starting center and LB from the big 10 with our next picks.

In comment 14856139 Spider56 said:

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against Ohio St and LSU ...the ACC was relatively weak this year and DC Venables is outstanding at exploiting opponents weaknesses; it was men against boys in many of the games. Frankly, Unless Chase Young falls, I hope they trade down and take a stud OT ... then we can take a starting center and LB from the big 10 with our next picks.

If you’d “look no further,” then allI can say is thank goodness you’re not a scout...😎

take the best offensive lineman in the draft unless chase young slides to us. If Chargers want to slide up we should be able to get Willis or Wirffs at 6.

I expect the chargers to make a move for Tua. Think they want someone to sell in LA just as much as they need a QB. Will be interesting to see if Detroit trades out with a prospect like Okudah or Young sitting there being a perfect fit for them.

I keep looking at Okudah as a guy some team thats close to winning it all/thinks they are close may make a move up to grab.

I could see San Fransico trying to make the move now that the have the 13th pick.

13, 31 and next years #1 for a team thats truley rebuilding would be a nice haul.

In comment 14856003 Coach Red Beaulieu said:

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In comment 14855977 BillT said: Quote: In comment 14855973 Coach Red Beaulieu said: Quote: the JPP of OTs. Exactly. And why I think Wills is easily the best OT. I too prefer technique and tape over Underwear Olympic champions at OT.

100% agree with these guys! Wills has superior technique!

I'd say the same thing about Jeff Okudah, Derrick Brown, and K'lavon Chaisson (not to mention Chase Young), all of whom carry higher grades at NFL.com than their highest-graded OT, Jedrick Wills.

However, if the Giants were to eschew drafting their highest-graded OT at #4, and instead opted to draft a defender, they run the risk of not being able to make any significant upgrades to their offensive line in this draft. If drafting the BPA at #4 is their primary concern, without regard for need or positional value, and that BPA is a defender, who's to say it won't be a defender at #36, too? Or a WR, or CB, or DE? Who's to say we won't see a repeat of last year's draft, when they didn't draft an OT until the 7th round, and didn't bother to draft an OC at all?

The Giants have invested serious draft capital in a RB and a QB in two successive drafts. Isn't it time they invested comparable draft capital in their offensive line, too? Can they afford to subject their two core offensive players to sub-par O-Line play for another year? Can they also afford to put off preparing for "life after Solder" for another year?

I understand that the draft is not just about the current year. It should be about future years, too. But it seems to me that the Giants' future revolves around Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley, not just for this year, but for - hopefully - many years to come. In my view, the best way to insure a bright future for both of them is to stock up on players who make their lives easier, with premium talent across the board.

In comment 14856142 Big Blue '56 said:

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In comment 14856139 Spider56 said: Quote: against Ohio St and LSU ...the ACC was relatively weak this year and DC Venables is outstanding at exploiting opponents weaknesses; it was men against boys in many of the games. Frankly, Unless Chase Young falls, I hope they trade down and take a stud OT ... then we can take a starting center and LB from the big 10 with our next picks. If you’d “look no further,” then allI can say is thank goodness you’re not a scout...😎

BB ...I agree ... I have zero skills in scouting ... but I have been to many ACC games and the play this year was really down ... I’m just saying watching Simmons against this level of competition needs to kept in perspective.

In comment 14855961 Coach Red Beaulieu said:

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And make tackles sideline to sideline, stopping frigging sweeps that kill us all year but yet Shumur couldn't call one successful sweep to Engrams or a street FA. Might even be a weapon on screens!

+1

If DG can't find a partner to trade down, then taking Simmons at 4 makes allot of sense. As always, the Giants scouting people may have a different board than Schneier and the other usual subjects, but we can't and won't know that so as a mere fan I'll assume Simmons is ranked in the top 5 on their board, like most of the public boards, and ahead of the "big four" offensive tackles. And, of course, I would not take Simmons if Young were available, but that seems highly unlikely.

Simmons' is projected to be the perfect player to cover tight ends and running backs, a constant problem for the Giants' defense. Moreover, he is not a liability against the run or in going after the QB. Indeed, a player like Simmons fits the trend in the NFL to get pressure on the QB through mis-direction rather than simply pushing the pocket and sending in rushers off the edge. See link below. If he works out (always a legitimate question about every player in the draft - there are no "sure things"), he accordingly would help us in our weakest defensive area - getting after the passer.

So if Young is gone and we don't have a dance partner to trade down with, everything I have read suggests that Simmons is a good choice. We would then need to address o-line needs later in the draft.
Defensive Obfuscation from Hogs Heaven - ( New Window )

Is there seems to be more of a consensus concerning Simmons' overall talent and production while at Clemson than any of the top OTs, Wills being the only one most say can dominate from Day 1. While considering which one best suits the Giants, isn't it better to draft BPA in this spot than perhaps filling the need for an OT that may not start and have an immediate impact at beginning of the season. The thing I've read and heard is that the top 4 OTs requires some coaching up on holes they have in their game. Again, Wills being the exception as the most pro ready as a Day 1 starter based off of what I've heard and read. Wirfs needs to improve his hand placement, Becton crosses his feet too much in pass pro and limited pass sets while at Louisville, Thomas ends up on the ground too much because of balance issues because he gets too narrow. So while all are projected to be high level starters, it's just not right away, Wills being the exception. Plus DG's propensity to find those hidden OL gems in the later rounds. And let's all remember what DG said about how difficult a decision it was to bypass Josh Allen from Kentucky at #6 despite being in love with Daniel Jones. One more thing, PG IS NOT Bettcher. He schemes to his player's strengths, while JB seemed to like forcing square pegs into round holes. Either way the Giants should get a premium player regardless. GO GIANTS!!!

That might crop up hypothetically. Simmons/J.Jones or OT of choice/Baun. Which 1 would you prefer?

A LT and an All Pro at that (ability) wise. Too much other talent there.

In comment 14856810 Carl in CT said:

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A LT and an All Pro at that (ability) wise. Too much other talent there.

Can you guarantee the other guys up for the pick are too?