Colin Lindsay and Pigskin Paul Guillemette have once again generously volunteered to answer draft-related questions from BBI posters today from 1:30-3:00 PM.
Most BBI'ers are familiar with Colin's website, but if you haven't checked it out, please see the link below...
Great North Blue Draft Report - (
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What have you heard and what's your take as to who it's gonna be and ought to be?
How do you compare these three?
What have you heard and what's your take as to who it's gonna be and ought to be?
How do you compare these three?
and as a follow up - do you think Dave Gettleman's Draft history has any bearing on how to read the first round pick?
Related, in FA they brought in an OT and two blocking TEs, "meaning" it's far more likely they take a C before an OT -- agree or disagree?
Do you see Tanner Muse as a S or LB? If the latter, do you see him as an OLB in a 3-4? Or is he more of a special teams guy with limited defensive potential?
Do you see Ben Bartch as a 3rd round area OT? Do you think he is a long way from starting because of his small school background?
Who is the one player not being talked about who it would not shock you if the Giants drafted?
Who is the one player not being talked about who it would not shock you if the Giants drafted?
Eric - I'm in the OT or Simmons or trade down and get an OT camp. The notion of what you asked scares the hell out of me. :)
Just a couple of intro comments before we begin to frame the discussion. I will be joined by Pigskin Paul Guillemette (if he can find his way here!!) my partner in crime at the GBN. Pigskin will be answering questions regarding individual players, while I will try and focus on the more general aspect of the Giants’ draft process and likely direction etc.
With regard to the discussion of individual players, we would appreciate it we stuck with the more prominent top 100-150 prospects likely to be available in the first four rounds or so. While everyone loves looking for those diamond in the rough sleeper types, fact is, the likelihood of the Giants ever actually drafting one of those deep dive prospects is maybe 2-3%. And there’s maybe a 5-10% possibility the guy actually makes the team. Just not a great use of our time or resources.
The other thing is would be really helpful if people spread their questions out a little. We WILL try and answer every question so if there are already 2-3 unanswered ones on the board maybe wait until those have been answered before posting more questions. Also if some people would hold off until 2 or 2:30 to post their questions then we maybe we won’t feel quite as rushed trying to keep up and we will be able to be a little more thoughtful when posting replies.
Lastly, we don’t get paid for this. I do it because I’m a lifelong Giants (since 1957) fan and would do it every day if I had the chance. We do have bills to pay though and it would help out if people were over at the GBN and clicked an ad or two.
Thanks in advance for your co-operation!
sheesh.... insights
In fact, when one takes the emotion out of it and goes by the numbers the Giants biggest weak link last year were the coverage units in the defensive back seven. Fact is, to have any chance of competing in the NFL, you really need 3-4 solid corners, otherwise your opponents are just going to find the mismatches and shred your D on a weekly basis. CB Bradberry was a terrific get in free agency, but the rest of the CB corps is made up of totally unproven younger players. The Giants could conceivably live with that group next year to see how they develop, but it’s a scary thought! Meanwhile, the central pass defenders were arguably the slowest unit in the league up the middle last fall and while Martinez represents something of an upgrade over Ogletree, it’s still a slow group. Plus they still don’t appear to have anyone at all at FS.
I should also point out that I am not a ‘we have too many holes to fill!’ guy. Not that the Giants don’t have more than their share of units desperately in need of an upgrade, but the goal here is to build a championship quality team and the best teams in the league are by and large the teams with the most dynamic playmakers that make the most dynamic plays.
Viewed in that context - and to answer Eric's question about a surprise pick - it certainly wouldn’t shock me if the Giants were to think WR with one of their first two picks. Indeed, I have been making the case (apparently to an audience of no one) that while the OL needs to be upgraded, what would really put the scare in opposing defensive coaches would be a legit #1 receiver with the potential to take the top off their defenses. Last year, for example, the Giants had no one who scared opposing defenses deep so the other guys were consistently bringing 9-10, even 11 guys into the box fixing to stop #26 and just daring the Giants to beat them deep. Slayton did come on late, but add another legit big-play threat and you would start to force opponents to play their safeties much deeper, which in turn would open up the underneath zones for guys like Shepard, Tate and Engram, not to mention, almost by definition, give Saquon some space as opponents just aren't going to be able to bring so many guys to the LOS. And if they do, hammer them over the top. In the first we hear the CeeDee lambi back to being close to a top5 pick, while WR is the strength of the draft in the latter part of the opening round and early second with a bunch of guys like Baylor’s Denzel Mims, USC’s Michael Pittman, Brandon Aiyuk of Arizona State, Chase Claypool of Notre Dame, Penn State’s KJ Hamler and Jalen Reagor OF TCU. Of course, the Giants could opt to add a WR with either their late 3rd or early 4th round picks and they’ll be some good ones there, but they’re all more complimentary type guys rather than potential go-to receivers.
My sense is that the Giants will try and focus on OL early, and may as a consequence cluster draft some day three edge rushers.
What do you think of Alex Highsmith and Tyler Biadasz in the late third and early fourth rounds?
What day three edge rushers might intrigue the Giants?
Thanks again.
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after year, to share what you know and hear with us in addition to your personal incites. You add a lot of great food for quality thought and it is much appreciated.
sheesh.... insights
We don’t know yet. He might incite..😜😜
Can you discuss the secondary OTs (Jackson, Jones, Cleveland, Niang) a bit?
Who is the one player not being talked about who it would not shock you if the Giants drafted?
I obviously can't speak for Colin or Paul, but I would not be shocked if the Giants drafted Derrick Brown, especially after a trade down. I do assume if they did so that Tomlinson would be traded.
Kingblue: Given that the Giants don''t appear to have a FS at a;; one would think they'd be looking for one in this draft, but the picksings are some slim. see above for the possibility of a round one trade up. Other guys to watch in the early second include Davis of Cal, who is a really intriguing guy, Jeremy Chinn of Southern Illinois or Minnesota's Antoine Winfield who is a really good player but not very durable.
thx
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My OC list, in order is Ruiz, Biadasz, Cushenberry, Hennessey!
Everyone thinks the Giants are going to draft Simmons or an OL with the first pick.
Who is the one player not being talked about who it would not shock you if the Giants drafted?
Eric - I'm in the OT or Simmons or trade down and get an OT camp. The notion of what you asked scares the hell out of me. :)
My choice considering that Young is not going to be there for us would be Okudah, OT, Brown and then Simmons. But I also am warming to the idea of a stud WR.
Also if we take brown would we then recind the tag on Williams?
I wouldn't call them sleepers tho.
In comment 14856171 Mike in NY said:
We should also note that there isn't much right now to the dream of trading down with a team looking for a QB and picking up a passle of picks. There are several teams that would trade up for Burrow, but with his injury history we hear the market for Tua is coldish (and its no longer guaranteed that the Lions get many offers at #3), and it seeks unlikely anyone is going to offer much for Herbert. But it only takes one team so we'll see what happens on the 23rd but it doesn't look promising
In comment 14856235 NYG22 said:
This is great stuff, I think you answered it here. An OT especially one with potential to play LT is likely gone by 36 unless he is a highly developmental guy.
That in itself probably means LT with the top pick. Or the oft chance of getting fancy with a tradedown and then a trade up back into the first round for a guy like Cleveland because maybe Josh Jones and Austin will be gone by late round 1 too.
Agree on the upside of Becton its rare and he could be an absolute dominant LT if things come together. But I also think the intangible/tangible package in its entirety is what makes someone like Wills so good. He may not have that rare /size speed you look for in the top 5. But the other things are so good including the footwork, awareness, character, football IQ etc. that I strongly believe he will be an elite LT in this league.
Schrager has heard from multiple teams he is the first OT off the board.
We should also note that there isn't much right now to the dream of trading down with a team looking for a QB and picking up a passle of picks. There are several teams that would trade up for Burrow, but with his injury history we hear the market for Tua is coldish (and its no longer guaranteed that the Lions get many offers at #3), and it seeks unlikely anyone is going to offer much for Herbert. But it only takes one team so we'll see what happens on the 23rd but it doesn't look promising
If you are saying Okudah fills a major need, you've either soured on Baker given his poor rookie year or you think he's more of a slot CB.
Good take on Brown. Not really a pass rush force and therefore somewhat redundant to what we already have.
Thanks!
Thank you! And I do look at your site and enjoy readying about the Bowl games and senior bowl stuff. you guys do a great job.
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Paul etc: I am not sure why the Giants would want to trade out of #4 simply for the sake. They WILL get a shot at one of Young, Simmons and Okudah each of whom are really good prospects who fill major needs. Again you might trade down if you were intent on taking an OT or one of the WRs.
We should also note that there isn't much right now to the dream of trading down with a team looking for a QB and picking up a passle of picks. There are several teams that would trade up for Burrow, but with his injury history we hear the market for Tua is coldish (and its no longer guaranteed that the Lions get many offers at #3), and it seeks unlikely anyone is going to offer much for Herbert. But it only takes one team so we'll see what happens on the 23rd but it doesn't look promising
If you are saying Okudah fills a major need, you've either soured on Baker given his poor rookie year or you think he's more of a slot CB.
If for arguments sake we were to draft Okudah who plays the slot?
Pipe dream on Chase Young is an understatement. If Redskins don't take him at Pick2 they are doomed to mediocrity or worse for all eternity!
In comment 14856328 Eric from BBI said:
In comment 14856331 Colin@gbn said:
I always advise being careful with Iowa players. In most cases they have been coached to their potential and have little room left for growth as a pro. What you see is what you get. Plenty of Iowa guys in NFL, but few start and fewest a long time. Wirfs might be a big exception to my rule tho.
In comment 14856324 Rick in Dallas said:
To your point above and also about the OL perhaps not being worthy at #4, I say hear hear! Thanks for doing this yet again.
In comment 14856356 Amtoft said:
n comment 14856360 CT Charlie said:
In comment 14856367 AcidTest said:
On one hand you might think since everyone has gone to tech it would favor younger GMs a bit, but since the process is more akin to how it was "back in the day" with no pro days and such, does that favor more Old School GMs?
In comment 14856367 AcidTest said:
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do you think about Alex Highsmith and Tyler Biadasz? Will they be available in the late third and early fourth rounds? Thanks.
Thanks.
On one hand you might think since everyone has gone to tech it would favor younger GMs a bit, but since the process is more akin to how it was "back in the day" with no pro days and such, does that favor more Old School GMs?
Sorry to say that the "old time GMs" you refer to are pretty much all gone. I do recall the days when really old school GMs brought their Street & Smith mags to the party. Joel Buchsbaum was also a popular info source for those guys.
For me the OT's are the greatest strength of this Draft. The best class in many years with two Top 5 graded prospects, a Top 10, 4 in the Top 15 and 6 or 7 total in Round 1. The Giants would be borderline negligent given their weakness at the position if they attempted to deal with the problem outside of Round 1 given the talent available. Factor in the investment in and support for their QB and RB and it's almost a no brainer that OT will be the pick. Too many variables are aligning to expect otherwise.
If the franchise hasn't learned anything from wasting the second half of Eli's career and watching Jones get harried last season(Giants among the worst in the NFL in allowing pressure and hits), then there is little hope for the future.
TUA (injuries) , Ben Bartch (knee cap), Rico Dowdle (injuries), KYLE STANLEY, NETANE MUTI.
2) Thoughts on LB Markus Bailey from Purdue? If he was healthy, would he be a Day 2 pick for sure? Same question for Terrell Lewis of Alabama, but would he be a consensus top-20 pick if his medicals checked out?
I leave with a story about a conversation I had with a guy a couple of years back.
We have been blessed as Giants fans to have three championship runs over my lifetime. In the late 1950s and early 1960s they made 5 of 6 NFL championship games with a team built on a ferocious defense and a state of the art (for the day) passing attack.
In the 1980s we won two Super Bowls driven by one of the NFL's great defenses.
Then we won the 7/11 championship teams that had Eli playing at a elite level throwing to talented WR groups (Plax, Amani and Steve Smith in 07 and Nicks, Cruz and Manningahm in 11) and with the NASCAR pass rush hitting on all cylinders!!
Now the trick is to try and get back to that level one more time. Hey I have an idea; lets fix the offensive line!!
2) Thoughts on LB Markus Bailey from Purdue? If he was healthy, would he be a Day 2 pick for sure? Same question for Terrell Lewis of Alabama, but would he be a consensus top-20 pick if his medicals checked out?
Wish I knew what Bailey's medicals have shown. He might be worth a risk if you really think he can pass all physicals, but not til Round 4, IMO. Lewis looked plenty healthy at Senior Bowl and passed their physical, which is pretty stringent. But buyer beware, Lewis is a great athlete, but ask your self how many plays he actually makes on game days. He has real trouble getting off good blockers.
I think you may have already found your backfield rotation guy in the signing of DEION LEWIS from the Titans, if he can stay healthy. Michael Warren from Cincy might be a good selection if he lasts til Round 7 and you have those 4 Picks still in hand.
Colin take care and be safe.
Music to my ears. Lets just hope the Lions like Brown or Okudah more.
We need O-line but we also need a defensive playmaker. We are most likely only going to get one or the other from reading this conversation.
For me the OT's are the greatest strength of this Draft. The best class in many years with two Top 5 graded prospects, a Top 10, 4 in the Top 15 and 6 or 7 total in Round 1. The Giants would be borderline negligent given their weakness at the position if they attempted to deal with the problem outside of Round 1 given the talent available. Factor in the investment in and support for their QB and RB and it's almost a no brainer that OT will be the pick. Too many variables are aligning to expect otherwise.
If the franchise hasn't learned anything from wasting the second half of Eli's career and watching Jones get harried last season(Giants among the worst in the NFL in allowing pressure and hits), then there is little hope for the future.
I couldn't agree more. Solder is barely holding on at LT. Who is our starting LT in 2021? To not draft a top OT prospect when you are position do so hurts this team for a number of years.
I leave with a story about a conversation I had with a guy a couple of years back.
We have been blessed as Giants fans to have three championship runs over my lifetime. In the late 1950s and early 1960s they made 5 of 6 NFL championship games with a team built on a ferocious defense and a state of the art (for the day) passing attack.
In the 1980s we won two Super Bowls driven by one of the NFL's great defenses.
Then we won the 7/11 championship teams that had Eli playing at a elite level throwing to talented WR groups (Plax, Amani and Steve Smith in 07 and Nicks, Cruz and Manningahm in 11) and with the NASCAR pass rush hitting on all cylinders!!
Now the trick is to try and get back to that level one more time. Hey I have an idea; lets fix the offensive line!!
Each of those championship defenses developed a unique characteristic, as you mentioned.
First there was the innovation of the MLB with Sam Huff, then the 3-4 defense which became multiple because of LT, then the 3-safety alignment and NASCAR package. This team needs a great defense and Simmons may be just the player to provide a unique dimension.
Edge rushers are too good nowadays. They are faster, stronger, and longer than ever before and that the talent gap between edge rushers vs Protectors is only growing.
I entered this too late yesterday. I hope you can answer it today. Thanks for doing this.