BBI Draft Chat with Great Blue North Draft Report (1-3:30PM)

Who are your sleepers on Day 3 of the Draft?

I have heard from credible sources that the Giants love Wirfs, they Love Brown and they love Simmons.

What have you heard and what's your take as to who it's gonna be and ought to be?

How do you compare these three?

In comment 14856172 gidiefor said:

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I have heard from credible sources that the Giants love Wirfs, they Love Brown and they love Simmons. What have you heard and what's your take as to who it's gonna be and ought to be? How do you compare these three?

and as a follow up - do you think Dave Gettleman's Draft history has any bearing on how to read the first round pick?

them to target for the Oline at 36? Why?

Prior to the combine, it seemed that Wills was 1, Thomas was 2 on most boards. Ever since the combine, Wirfs has become the top OT. The tape has not changed. Why is that?

DG has never drafted OL in Rd 1. Do you really see him doing that at #4, let alone in Rd 1?

Related, in FA they brought in an OT and two blocking TEs, "meaning" it's far more likely they take a C before an OT -- agree or disagree?

Do you think the late season and playoff success of Deebo Samuel sparks a trend for increased value in hybrid players like him? If so, do you think a 4th rounder for NYG spent on Lynn Bowden or Antonio Gibson might be a good choice?

Do you see Tanner Muse as a S or LB? If the latter, do you see him as an OLB in a 3-4? Or is he more of a special teams guy with limited defensive potential?

Do you see Ben Bartch as a 3rd round area OT? Do you think he is a long way from starting because of his small school background?

Everyone thinks the Giants are going to draft Simmons or an OL with the first pick.

Who is the one player not being talked about who it would not shock you if the Giants drafted?

the Giants could really use another great WR pick in the vein of Slayton -- where is the real value in WRs in this draft

Thanks Colin

In comment 14856195 Eric from BBI said:

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Everyone thinks the Giants are going to draft Simmons or an OL with the first pick. Who is the one player not being talked about who it would not shock you if the Giants drafted?

Eric - I'm in the OT or Simmons or trade down and get an OT camp. The notion of what you asked scares the hell out of me. :)

the OCs (Ruiz, Hennessy, Harris, Biadasz, Cushenberry -- is my ranking) with a little bit of commentary.

If the Giants do, in fact, take Simmons at 4, could we see a trade up, back into the 1st to select an OT? If so, who should we target, what pick range would be needed, or is there a prospect we may be able to get at #36 that you would be comfortable with? If so, whom?

Afternoon guys: Just 22 days to go until the draft! Hope everyone is keeping well in these incredible times!
Just a couple of intro comments before we begin to frame the discussion. I will be joined by Pigskin Paul Guillemette (if he can find his way here!!) my partner in crime at the GBN. Pigskin will be answering questions regarding individual players, while I will try and focus on the more general aspect of the Giants’ draft process and likely direction etc.

With regard to the discussion of individual players, we would appreciate it we stuck with the more prominent top 100-150 prospects likely to be available in the first four rounds or so. While everyone loves looking for those diamond in the rough sleeper types, fact is, the likelihood of the Giants ever actually drafting one of those deep dive prospects is maybe 2-3%. And there’s maybe a 5-10% possibility the guy actually makes the team. Just not a great use of our time or resources.

The other thing is would be really helpful if people spread their questions out a little. We WILL try and answer every question so if there are already 2-3 unanswered ones on the board maybe wait until those have been answered before posting more questions. Also if some people would hold off until 2 or 2:30 to post their questions then we maybe we won’t feel quite as rushed trying to keep up and we will be able to be a little more thoughtful when posting replies.
Lastly, we don’t get paid for this. I do it because I’m a lifelong Giants (since 1957) fan and would do it every day if I had the chance. We do have bills to pay though and it would help out if people were over at the GBN and clicked an ad or two.

Thanks in advance for your co-operation!

Is there a deep half safety with alot of range? Isn't Love best near the line of scrimmage?

after year, to share what you know and hear with us in addition to your personal incites. You add a lot of great food for quality thought and it is much appreciated.

In comment 14856217 gidiefor said:

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after year, to share what you know and hear with us in addition to your personal incites. You add a lot of great food for quality thought and it is much appreciated.

sheesh.... insights

Maybe I should start with some general comments. Just a couple of general observations before we get going to kind of frame the discussion. Obviously, we don’t know at this point exactly who the Giants are going to select with the 4th overall pick in this year’s opening round as there are two pieces of info which are absolutely critical to that decision which we don’t know at this time and, in fact, aren’t likely to know until they actually make their pick on the 23rd. First, we really don’t what are the organization’s actual priorities when it comes to team building. Second, is there a player, or players, that they really like in this year’s draft class because in the end, teams ultimately draft players, not positions. That said, their primary options aren’t necessarily all that complicated to figure out. Either the Giants are already pretty much committed to taking the best available OT, which might entail a trade down of 2-3 spots, or they are not, in which case it seems like kind of a no-brainer that they’ll be taking one of the top defensive players – most likely either LB Isaiah Simmons or CB Jeff Okudah – with the 4th pick. It’s not rocket science.

In fact, when one takes the emotion out of it and goes by the numbers the Giants biggest weak link last year were the coverage units in the defensive back seven. Fact is, to have any chance of competing in the NFL, you really need 3-4 solid corners, otherwise your opponents are just going to find the mismatches and shred your D on a weekly basis. CB Bradberry was a terrific get in free agency, but the rest of the CB corps is made up of totally unproven younger players. The Giants could conceivably live with that group next year to see how they develop, but it’s a scary thought! Meanwhile, the central pass defenders were arguably the slowest unit in the league up the middle last fall and while Martinez represents something of an upgrade over Ogletree, it’s still a slow group. Plus they still don’t appear to have anyone at all at FS.

I should also point out that I am not a ‘we have too many holes to fill!’ guy. Not that the Giants don’t have more than their share of units desperately in need of an upgrade, but the goal here is to build a championship quality team and the best teams in the league are by and large the teams with the most dynamic playmakers that make the most dynamic plays.

Viewed in that context - and to answer Eric's question about a surprise pick - it certainly wouldn’t shock me if the Giants were to think WR with one of their first two picks. Indeed, I have been making the case (apparently to an audience of no one) that while the OL needs to be upgraded, what would really put the scare in opposing defensive coaches would be a legit #1 receiver with the potential to take the top off their defenses. Last year, for example, the Giants had no one who scared opposing defenses deep so the other guys were consistently bringing 9-10, even 11 guys into the box fixing to stop #26 and just daring the Giants to beat them deep. Slayton did come on late, but add another legit big-play threat and you would start to force opponents to play their safeties much deeper, which in turn would open up the underneath zones for guys like Shepard, Tate and Engram, not to mention, almost by definition, give Saquon some space as opponents just aren't going to be able to bring so many guys to the LOS. And if they do, hammer them over the top. In the first we hear the CeeDee lambi back to being close to a top5 pick, while WR is the strength of the draft in the latter part of the opening round and early second with a bunch of guys like Baylor’s Denzel Mims, USC’s Michael Pittman, Brandon Aiyuk of Arizona State, Chase Claypool of Notre Dame, Penn State’s KJ Hamler and Jalen Reagor OF TCU. Of course, the Giants could opt to add a WR with either their late 3rd or early 4th round picks and they’ll be some good ones there, but they’re all more complimentary type guys rather than potential go-to receivers.

Colin. Thanks to you and Paul for doing this again, especially under these difficult circumstances.

My sense is that the Giants will try and focus on OL early, and may as a consequence cluster draft some day three edge rushers.

What do you think of Alex Highsmith and Tyler Biadasz in the late third and early fourth rounds?

What day three edge rushers might intrigue the Giants?

Thanks again.

In comment 14856218 gidiefor said:

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In comment 14856217 gidiefor said: Quote: after year, to share what you know and hear with us in addition to your personal incites. You add a lot of great food for quality thought and it is much appreciated. sheesh.... insights

We don’t know yet. He might incite..😜😜

What round do you think OL Ben Bartch, Alex Taylor, and Matt Peart go. Do you think that they can play on the left side in the NFL?

and assuming the RD1 pick was Simmons, would you be more inclined to get a RT prospect like Isiah Wilson or a LT prospect like Ezra Cleveland in RD2?

Can you discuss the secondary OTs (Jackson, Jones, Cleveland, Niang) a bit?

I only see Kmet as a top 100 value

Gidie et al: Re the OL what we are hearing right now is that the top 4 guys are slipping ever so slightly. And there is also no consensus who the top guy is. And that’s in sharp contrast to the other side of the ball where just about everybody appears to be in agreement that the best non-QB prospects after DE Chase Young and LB Isaiah Simmons, CB Jeff Okudah and DT Derrick Brown. The OTs are good prospects, but it does not appear that there is any consensus that any are clear top 5 prospects as each has some issue. Mehki Becton of Louisville, for example, is just an imposing physical guy with tremendous upside, but he’s a tad raw and unpolished in his technique. Meanwhile, Iowa’s Tristan Wirfs is a terrific athlete with a great motor, but he’s somewhat stiff and mechanical, while Georgia’s Andrew Thomas is the most experienced LT prospect and has prototype size, but he’s been inconsistent in the past and isn’t necessarily that athletic. Lastly, Alabama’s Jedrick Wills is maybe the most pro-ready prospect in the bunch; he’s also the most solid technically. Wills, though, is not all that big (at least for a top 5 OT) and really isn’t that good an athlete and as such doesn’t offer much in the way of upside. He’s also the least likely to be comfortable playing LT at the next level. In the end, one can make the case that all 4 guys have top 10 potential. It’s my sense, though, that if the Giants were to take an OT at #4 it’s going to be someone with a ton of upside with the potential to be a franchise LT and the only who is likely to come close in the regard is Becton, but time will tell. Meanwhile the OL really thins out after the first round. A guy like Ezra Cleveland would be a good fit but we hear he's moving up into the latter opening round area. After that group of 6-7 guys you are really talking developmental types. Same story at C (which I see as a much bigger immediate need than OT). Ruiz will probably be gone by #36. We like Hennessey of Temple too at the end of the third, but the truth is if you want to get an OL this year, at least one that has a decent chance to contribute you really need to think about it in the first.

In comment 14856195 Eric from BBI said:

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Everyone thinks the Giants are going to draft Simmons or an OL with the first pick. Who is the one player not being talked about who it would not shock you if the Giants drafted?

I obviously can't speak for Colin or Paul, but I would not be shocked if the Giants drafted Derrick Brown, especially after a trade down. I do assume if they did so that Tomlinson would be traded.

I am hopeful that the Giants draft a TE on day 3. I'm interested in a solid blocking TE who may have surprised with his workout numbers and could blossom in the NFL. A TE that may have been underutilized in college because of scheme or poor QB play. Do you see an overlooked TE like a George Kittle type that may go late but develop into an excellent TE in the pro's?

Any edge rushers on days 2 or 3 who have not been getting enough attention? Do you have any sleepers?

I think if NYG decides to go defense over OL, the pick will be Derrick Brown. You take Brown and your DL is an absolute force for years to come. I have a feeling NYG brass would prefer someone like Brown (a building the team from the inside out) pick over Okudah or Simmons if we go defense at 4. Thoughts on that happening?

It appears these guys are RT’s and/or OG’a (Wirfs). I don’t see the value at 4 for any of them. The team has to know they’re not going to be very good next year. Draft a defender not named Simmons and target Penei Sewell next year when we’re likely back inside the top 5.

Saos: Especially after last year I think there is a really good chance the Giants trade back up into the opening round. They could be looking at a C (Ruiz), an OT (Cleveland) or a WR (Higgins, Mims), or even a DB is omeone like McKinney or Delpit slips.

Kingblue: Given that the Giants don''t appear to have a FS at a;; one would think they'd be looking for one in this draft, but the picksings are some slim. see above for the possibility of a round one trade up. Other guys to watch in the early second include Davis of Cal, who is a really intriguing guy, Jeremy Chinn of Southern Illinois or Minnesota's Antoine Winfield who is a really good player but not very durable.

Gidie: Haven't heard much at all from the Giants and with no pro days etc there just hasn't been much evidence to try and figure where they are at. Like you we heard they liked Wirfs, plus they went in numbers to Brown's pro day at Auburn (although I got the sense that Judge was going to make all the rounds.) Best advice I have right now is to chill out and wait for the 23rd an we'll find out for sure.

Ryan et al: Certainly there is a case to be made for Brown and he is a really good player but I just don't see the fit. He's a traditional 4-3 DT who does a nice job collapsing the pocket but he's isn't going to give you much in the way of actual pressure. Simmons and Okudah just seem to fit so much better what the Giants appear to need on D.

wanting to move up into some of the top spots (#1-#4)?

thx

In comment 14856202 NYG22 said:

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In comment 14856195 Eric from BBI said: Quote: My OC list, in order is Ruiz, Biadasz, Cushenberry, Hennessey! Everyone thinks the Giants are going to draft Simmons or an OL with the first pick. Who is the one player not being talked about who it would not shock you if the Giants drafted? Eric - I'm in the OT or Simmons or trade down and get an OT camp. The notion of what you asked scares the hell out of me. :)

I love your website and views, I am of the opinion that looking at the top players that could be available at 4, that unless you pick Young, Okuda, or Simmons, that need and talent do not match up enough to take any other player in that spot and the Giants should trade back if at all possible, but I am afraid this organization not ever doing it, over complicate the process and still don't, unless Judge has more influence then we know. John Mara said he wants to know who they are getting if they trade back, that comment scares me and makes me wonder if they will change or adjust at all. Thank you and you and your families please stay safe.

Bitey et al: Unfortunately the ER situation is like an ER; its not a great year. Plus its another position that if you don't get a guy early the likelihood that he is going to be able to play is pretty small. Couple of guys that might be worth a look though include Darrell Taylor from Tennessee, Strowbridge from UNC (who position wise is like Leonard Williams) and maybe Jabari Zuniga from Florida but again its thin.

I just dont see the toughness or physicality for a MLB player. Am I missing something or is he really just cover guy? How do you see Detroit in the mix if there are no trades, who is their guy of Okudah, Simmons or Brown?

My choice considering that Young is not going to be there for us would be Okudah, OT, Brown and then Simmons. But I also am warming to the idea of a stud WR.

Also if we take brown would we then recind the tag on Williams?

For my money a half-dozen guys that rank as Day 3 guys are Troy Pride/CB, Gabriel Davis/WR, Logan Wilson/IB, Sosa Agim/DT, K'Von Wallace/S.
I wouldn't call them sleepers tho.

In comment 14856171 Mike in NY said:

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Who are your sleepers on Day 3 of the Draft?

Paul etc: I am not sure why the Giants would want to trade out of #4 simply for the sake. They WILL get a shot at one of Young, Simmons and Okudah each of whom are really good prospects who fill major needs. Again you might trade down if you were intent on taking an OT or one of the WRs.

We should also note that there isn't much right now to the dream of trading down with a team looking for a QB and picking up a passle of picks. There are several teams that would trade up for Burrow, but with his injury history we hear the market for Tua is coldish (and its no longer guaranteed that the Lions get many offers at #3), and it seeks unlikely anyone is going to offer much for Herbert. But it only takes one team so we'll see what happens on the 23rd but it doesn't look promising

TE is indeed one of the lesser talent groups this year. I like Brycen Hopkins but he's another Engram so not likely for G-Men. Thad Moss might be a possibility given that he blocks well. But his body screams out of Move-TE. LSU's Stephen Sullivan did some eye catching things at SR Bowl.





In comment 14856235 NYG22 said:

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I only see Kmet as a top 100 value

In comment 14856237 Colin@gbn said:

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Gidie et al: Re the OL what we are hearing right now is that the top 4 guys are slipping ever so slightly. And there is also no consensus who the top guy is. And that’s in sharp contrast to the other side of the ball where just about everybody appears to be in agreement that the best non-QB prospects after DE Chase Young and LB Isaiah Simmons, CB Jeff Okudah and DT Derrick Brown. The OTs are good prospects, but it does not appear that there is any consensus that any are clear top 5 prospects as each has some issue. Mehki Becton of Louisville, for example, is just an imposing physical guy with tremendous upside, but he’s a tad raw and unpolished in his technique. Meanwhile, Iowa’s Tristan Wirfs is a terrific athlete with a great motor, but he’s somewhat stiff and mechanical, while Georgia’s Andrew Thomas is the most experienced LT prospect and has prototype size, but he’s been inconsistent in the past and isn’t necessarily that athletic. Lastly, Alabama’s Jedrick Wills is maybe the most pro-ready prospect in the bunch; he’s also the most solid technically. Wills, though, is not all that big (at least for a top 5 OT) and really isn’t that good an athlete and as such doesn’t offer much in the way of upside. He’s also the least likely to be comfortable playing LT at the next level. In the end, one can make the case that all 4 guys have top 10 potential. It’s my sense, though, that if the Giants were to take an OT at #4 it’s going to be someone with a ton of upside with the potential to be a franchise LT and the only who is likely to come close in the regard is Becton, but time will tell. Meanwhile the OL really thins out after the first round. A guy like Ezra Cleveland would be a good fit but we hear he's moving up into the latter opening round area. After that group of 6-7 guys you are really talking developmental types. Same story at C (which I see as a much bigger immediate need than OT). Ruiz will probably be gone by #36. We like Hennessey of Temple too at the end of the third, but the truth is if you want to get an OL this year, at least one that has a decent chance to contribute you really need to think about it in the first.

This is great stuff, I think you answered it here. An OT especially one with potential to play LT is likely gone by 36 unless he is a highly developmental guy.

That in itself probably means LT with the top pick. Or the oft chance of getting fancy with a tradedown and then a trade up back into the first round for a guy like Cleveland because maybe Josh Jones and Austin will be gone by late round 1 too.

Agree on the upside of Becton its rare and he could be an absolute dominant LT if things come together. But I also think the intangible/tangible package in its entirety is what makes someone like Wills so good. He may not have that rare /size speed you look for in the top 5. But the other things are so good including the footwork, awareness, character, football IQ etc. that I strongly believe he will be an elite LT in this league.

Schrager has heard from multiple teams he is the first OT off the board.

I have really come around to liking S Nigel Warrior of Tenn. He played on bad teams until last season for Vols. He can cover some and hits a ton. Father is Dale Carter/CB a real start back in the day with Chiefs. H e had a solid season in 2019, also looked good in NFLPA action.

In comment 14856307 Colin@gbn said:

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Paul etc: I am not sure why the Giants would want to trade out of #4 simply for the sake. They WILL get a shot at one of Young, Simmons and Okudah each of whom are really good prospects who fill major needs. Again you might trade down if you were intent on taking an OT or one of the WRs. We should also note that there isn't much right now to the dream of trading down with a team looking for a QB and picking up a passle of picks. There are several teams that would trade up for Burrow, but with his injury history we hear the market for Tua is coldish (and its no longer guaranteed that the Lions get many offers at #3), and it seeks unlikely anyone is going to offer much for Herbert. But it only takes one team so we'll see what happens on the 23rd but it doesn't look promising

If you are saying Okudah fills a major need, you've either soured on Baker given his poor rookie year or you think he's more of a slot CB.

In comment 14856268 Colin@gbn said:

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Ryan et al: Certainly there is a case to be made for Brown and he is a really good player but I just don't see the fit. He's a traditional 4-3 DT who does a nice job collapsing the pocket but he's isn't going to give you much in the way of actual pressure. Simmons and Okudah just seem to fit so much better what the Giants appear to need on D.

Good take on Brown. Not really a pass rush force and therefore somewhat redundant to what we already have.

Rudy et al: Just to follow up on the last post, Detroit becomes the key for the Giants if they don't trade out for a QB. We have heard they really like Brown and really want a CB. But we keep hearing from across the league that Simmons is even starting to push Young for the top non-QB grade so if the Lions think BPA ... I know there are a lot of people worried about Simmons because he will never be a physical run defender. But that's old school. The guy is a good enough run defender who's game is all about beating the OL to the point of attack anyway. But he's just so good in coverage. I mean we are talking a MLB who played multiple snaps in college covering WRs! The other thing with Simmons is that in this day and age with every team running 3-WR sets 65-70% of the time, your base defense is really a 4-2 and you need guys that can run because they are being asked to cover so much ground. And the one thing Simmons can do is run to the ball!!

Can you project at solid OT at pick 36 and a solid OC in the late 3rd early 4th round.

Thanks!

Great!!

Thanks Colin and Paul. Great job.

Do go WR in Round 1-2, which one matches best what they should be using a WR for at this time?

great to hear from you once again. What are your thoughts on Young vs Simmons. Different players for sure but, I get the feeling Simmons could be a better player long term especially in today's pass happy softer style of offense. What is your thought on those two and long term success?