BBI Draft Chat with Great Blue North Draft Report (1-3:30PM)

In comment 14856317 Colin@gbn said:

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Rudy et al: Just to follow up on the last post, Detroit becomes the key for the Giants if they don't trade out for a QB. We have heard they really like Brown and really want a CB. But we keep hearing from across the league that Simmons is even starting to push Young for the top non-QB grade so if the Lions think BPA ... I know there are a lot of people worried about Simmons because he will never be a physical run defender. But that's old school. The guy is a good enough run defender who's game is all about beating the OL to the point of attack anyway. But he's just so good in coverage. I mean we are talking a MLB who played multiple snaps in college covering WRs! The other thing with Simmons is that in this day and age with every team running 3-WR sets 65-70% of the time, your base defense is really a 4-2 and you need guys that can run because they are being asked to cover so much ground. And the one thing Simmons can do is run to the ball!!

Thank you! And I do look at your site and enjoy readying about the Bowl games and senior bowl stuff. you guys do a great job.

Pipe dream to hope that Chase Young somehow falls to #4?

In comment 14856314 NYG22 said:

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In comment 14856307 Colin@gbn said: Quote: Paul etc: I am not sure why the Giants would want to trade out of #4 simply for the sake. They WILL get a shot at one of Young, Simmons and Okudah each of whom are really good prospects who fill major needs. Again you might trade down if you were intent on taking an OT or one of the WRs. We should also note that there isn't much right now to the dream of trading down with a team looking for a QB and picking up a passle of picks. There are several teams that would trade up for Burrow, but with his injury history we hear the market for Tua is coldish (and its no longer guaranteed that the Lions get many offers at #3), and it seeks unlikely anyone is going to offer much for Herbert. But it only takes one team so we'll see what happens on the 23rd but it doesn't look promising If you are saying Okudah fills a major need, you've either soured on Baker given his poor rookie year or you think he's more of a slot CB.

If for arguments sake we were to draft Okudah who plays the slot?

Ryan: Cleveland would have some upside at #36 if he lasted that long. I think Hennessey would have value late third, but the fact is it is hard to find 'solid' OTs in the second even harder to find solid IOL in the mid-rounds. You are always going to be talking developmental types at those spots.

so my question may be moot now. I feel Young is way way overrated- ala Keith McCants.

Pipe dream on Chase Young is an understatement. If Redskins don't take him at Pick2 they are doomed to mediocrity or worse for all eternity!


In comment 14856328 Eric from BBI said:

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Pipe dream to hope that Chase Young somehow falls to #4?

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Don't want to break anybodies heart here and it is still very possible that the Giants address the OL at #4 or 36 but it is also very possible that at least for 2020 they pretty much live with what they have on the OL especially at OT. Solder is not going anywhere at LT in the short term and Fleming and Gates may do at RT. I expect the Giants would look to add a developmental OT on the third day. OT will be a big need next year and it is possible given the limited resources they have left for 2020 they look elsewhere. Again I stress POSSIBLE because we just don't k now what they are actually thinking.

IMO Ezra Cleveland has seat No. 1 in the overreaction from a big Combine effort. I have watched 3 Boise game tapes and he is a better athlete than a player right now. Potential yes, but I can't see taking him until Round 3. Then you have to coach him up and wait. Starting him right away could get JONES seriously injured.



In comment 14856331 Colin@gbn said:

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Ryan: Cleveland would have some upside at #36 if he lasted that long. I think Hennessey would have value late third, but the fact is it is hard to find 'solid' OTs in the second even harder to find solid IOL in the mid-rounds. You are always going to be talking developmental types at those spots.

A WR does relieve stress on Jones, Barkley and the OL

There were a couple of questions on what selecting Okudah would mean re Baker. I doubt the Giants are ready to give up on the latter, but at the same time, you can hardly take his up and down 2019 season to the bank. Fact is around the NFL these days the motto is "you can never have enough cover guys!!" We also know that Graham loves to blitz and you can't do that if you can't cover. Hard to know who would cover who if the Giants did select Okudah but what a lot of teams have their CBs travel; ie your #1 goes where their #1 receiver goes etc.

Wouldn’t be totally shocked if NYG go with Solder, Fleming and Gates at Tackles. Look at Andrew Luck who had to retire at age 29 due to awful OL play early on in his career. Would DG take that risk with potential of Solder having another awful season and Jones possibly getting very hurt because of it? Also Barkley got banged up. Poor line play can end his career early and he was #2 overall.

Colin: with a slight trend towards QBs who run by design and QBs who get rid of the ball much quicker, is the value of the Edge position diminished somewhat? And, if yes, then is the value of the big time pass blocking OT diminished as well? Not saying ignored; just not as critical as it has been.

Geno Stone does not have NFL athleticism, especially speed. Might make a greatSpecial Teamer, but not much more. After seeing MUSE run at Combine I need to see more game film. He may be a better athlete than player. BUT... he can play some LB roles as well as S roles. He interests me.
I always advise being careful with Iowa players. In most cases they have been coached to their potential and have little room left for growth as a pro. What you see is what you get. Plenty of Iowa guys in NFL, but few start and fewest a long time. Wirfs might be a big exception to my rule tho.




In comment 14856324 Rick in Dallas said:

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Thanks Colin and Paul. Great job.

"I should also point out that I am not a ‘we have too many holes to fill!’ guy. Not that the Giants don’t have more than their share of units desperately in need of an upgrade, but the goal here is to build a championship quality team and the best teams in the league are by and large the teams with the most dynamic playmakers that make the most dynamic plays. "

To your point above and also about the OL perhaps not being worthy at #4, I say hear hear! Thanks for doing this yet again.

Ira et al: There is a chance that a guy like Mims could be there at #36, but there is an even better chance he's gone. It appears that there maybe a two-tiered set of second tier WRs with guys like Mims, Higgins and maybe even Justin Jefferson more likely to go late first with a second group that could include Laviska Shenault, Michael Pittman, Brandon Aiyuk, KJ hamler and jalen Reagor more mid-second round types. They'd all be good but the first three have more #1 WR potential.

Ashtyn Davis then you have seen Evan Weaver... He is always around the ball. Where do you see him going?

With the G-Men having 4 Picks in Round 7, I sure hope Gettleman can/will trade a couple of those for 5th or 6th Rounder next year. Despite preaching that you can never have too much young talent on the roster, the catch with late rounders vs. Rookie FA is that many teams will try to keep as many drafted guys on their roster as they can. Saving face IMO.

You've talked about WR's more than some of us expected, but you haven't mentioned him. Probably not our guy, but do rate him as highly as most other people do?

Samian: That's a great point, although my understanding is that if they had their druthers the Giants would still prefer an ER at #4. That said more and more teams when they think D are loading up with cover guys rather than pass rushers necessarily. Either works so we need to get one or the other!!

I also got a good chance to watch Evan Weaver during Sr Bowl week. And in that "elite" setting he looked very active, but a step too slow. If they keep all R7 Picks I'd take him, but he will likely never come close to a "starting" NFL job. Tries very hard but that 4.76/40 @ Combine is real playing speed. He just misses tackles and coverages by that 1 step too slow. Sorry to say cause he seems like a good guy and gives all out effort.




In comment 14856356 Amtoft said:

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Ashtyn Davis then you have seen Evan Weaver... He is always around the ball. Where do you see him going?

with Shepard, Tate, and Slayton, am I crazy in thinking we really don't need to draft WR this year?

do you think about Alex Highsmith and Tyler Biadasz? Will they be available in the late third and early fourth rounds? Thanks.

I think Giants will/should settle for a Day 3 WR in such a deep class. But to address Jeudy, I will say I flat-out see him as better than Amari Cooper and faster than many give him credit for with his pads on. Better hands than Cooper and precise route runner.



n comment 14856360 CT Charlie said:

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You've talked about WR's more than some of us expected, but you haven't mentioned him. Probably not our guy, but do rate him as highly as most other people do?

UGADawgs et al: Point taken. Its possible the Giants think that way. Its also possible they think that getting hit is football and the best thing they could do for DJ is to convince him either to get rid of the football quicker or just don't hang around the pocket all that long. I am sure going all in on the OL is an option for the Giants this month. My own theory is that while you need your OL to be competent (and no one is saying that the Giants is anywhere near that) but OLs no matter how good don't win games. People who make plays do and I'm not sure you may necessarily want to use a top 5 pick to fix a hole when you have no playmakers on your team. We shall see on the 23rd.

Might help Giants on 3rd day of draft

is the best OL class in years, and as Colin notes, they still all have flaws. OL play has declined as college teams move to spread offenses. The ball comes out very quickly. Edge rushers are also much faster than they were even 10 years ago. It's a bad combination.

Ryan again: With Shepherd, Tate and especially Slayton (not to mention Engram and Saquon) you do not have to add a WR if all you are trying to do is fill holes because there are bigger ones elsewhere. But you want to have an offense that really challenges defenses, add a true #1 receiver and watch the consternation as they figure out how they are going to bring enough people to the LOS to stop Saquon while leaving enough people deep to take away the big-play threat. Complimentary football!!

I have both Highsmith and Biadasz solidly in my Top 100. Tyler belongs in a team that wants to pound the ball in the running game, which I think is Gettleman's preference. Highsmith has athleticism but will take some time to find his role. But he is natural as a rusher/penetrator.



In comment 14856367 AcidTest said:

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do you think about Alex Highsmith and Tyler Biadasz? Will they be available in the late third and early fourth rounds? Thanks.

I'm curious about the effects Covid has played on this process. Obviously NFL front offices have to adapt but any insights into how well they are doing with any stories you could pass on.

On one hand you might think since everyone has gone to tech it would favor younger GMs a bit, but since the process is more akin to how it was "back in the day" with no pro days and such, does that favor more Old School GMs?

Amtoft et al: I don't usually like to talk about later round guys but Evan Weaver is one of my faves from college football. Not a great athlete but tough physical and always around the ball. We have him rated a little higher than others - maybe late 4th or early 5th - lot like Connelly last year. Probably not a Giants prspect though as even if they didn't get Simmons he end up plaing behind Martinez, mayo and Connelly.

In comment 14856376 PigskinPaul said:

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I have both Highsmith and Biadasz solidly in my Top 100. Tyler belongs in a team that wants to pound the ball in the running game, which I think is Gettleman's preference. Highsmith has athleticism but will take some time to find his role. But he is natural as a rusher/penetrator. In comment 14856367 AcidTest said: Quote: do you think about Alex Highsmith and Tyler Biadasz? Will they be available in the late third and early fourth rounds? Thanks.

Thanks.

In comment 14856379 Giantsfan79 said:

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I'm curious about the effects Covid has played on this process. Obviously NFL front offices have to adapt but any insights into how well they are doing with any stories you could pass on. On one hand you might think since everyone has gone to tech it would favor younger GMs a bit, but since the process is more akin to how it was "back in the day" with no pro days and such, does that favor more Old School GMs?

Sorry to say that the "old time GMs" you refer to are pretty much all gone. I do recall the days when really old school GMs brought their Street & Smith mags to the party. Joel Buchsbaum was also a popular info source for those guys.

That's a great question re the changes brought on by the COVID epidemic. The impact is most on injured players like Tua who individual team medical staffs may not ever get to check out prior to the draft. There will also be a number of players who never ran. That's especially true for some reason for the DE/ERs quite a number of whom didn't run at the combine. In terms of the tech stuff it really has less to do with the GMs than the IT depts and most NFL teams have pretty up-to-date ones. Plus in the end most of the players grades are based on their tape and most of that was in the vaults by the time C19 hit. It will be interesting though to see if this year's hit rate differs from earlier years.

Since Giants are going to need a safety and probably won't be able to get one until the 3rd or 4th... What do you think of J.R. Reed from Georgia. He is older at 24, but has been amazing as a two time all SEC and last year an all american. Is it his age dropping him down?

The Giants have not had a big red zone threat in a long time. Do you really see them making a priority in getting one of the “skyscraper”wide receivers?

Amtoft again ... Reed is a nice player who should go in that t4th round area but he is more of a SS type. Maybe jones of Texas of Blackmon of Utah would be better fits, but you never really want to be looking for starters the 3rd day of the draft. we haven't mentioned kyle Dugger of Lenoir-Rhyne who lots of teams around the league really like. Not that experienced but a really good athlete with a lot of upside.

Unfortunately from reading your opening statement to your premise on the strengths and weaknesses to your valuation of many players and positions and the Giants approach we don't agree on much.

For me the OT's are the greatest strength of this Draft. The best class in many years with two Top 5 graded prospects, a Top 10, 4 in the Top 15 and 6 or 7 total in Round 1. The Giants would be borderline negligent given their weakness at the position if they attempted to deal with the problem outside of Round 1 given the talent available. Factor in the investment in and support for their QB and RB and it's almost a no brainer that OT will be the pick. Too many variables are aligning to expect otherwise.

If the franchise hasn't learned anything from wasting the second half of Eli's career and watching Jones get harried last season(Giants among the worst in the NFL in allowing pressure and hits), then there is little hope for the future.

Thought some of you might like to know who I would have off my Big Board if I ran a team.
TUA (injuries) , Ben Bartch (knee cap), Rico Dowdle (injuries), KYLE STANLEY, NETANE MUTI.

Donnie et al: I expect they'd like first and foremest a legit deep threat at WR but if the Giants did not get one of those early (and maybe even if they did) I could certainly see them targeting somebody like 6-5 Collin (no relation) Johnson of Texas in the 4th.

Can you do a cluster buster of the Big 4 of OTs

are some day three developmental OL the Giants might target?

1) Which Day 3 RBs do you see as good complements to Saquon?

2) Thoughts on LB Markus Bailey from Purdue? If he was healthy, would he be a Day 2 pick for sure? Same question for Terrell Lewis of Alabama, but would he be a consensus top-20 pick if his medicals checked out?

Sure any of you who live in the NY, NJ, CT area are tired of hearing about Covid, but I wish you all the best of luck avoiding it. May you and your families be spared. Listen to the "real" experts and try to be patient.

40 time?

Torrag: It's why its great fun to have these debates and why they matter not because the Giants will ultimately decide without consulting either of us on the 23rd.

I leave with a story about a conversation I had with a guy a couple of years back.

We have been blessed as Giants fans to have three championship runs over my lifetime. In the late 1950s and early 1960s they made 5 of 6 NFL championship games with a team built on a ferocious defense and a state of the art (for the day) passing attack.

In the 1980s we won two Super Bowls driven by one of the NFL's great defenses.

Then we won the 7/11 championship teams that had Eli playing at a elite level throwing to talented WR groups (Plax, Amani and Steve Smith in 07 and Nicks, Cruz and Manningahm in 11) and with the NASCAR pass rush hitting on all cylinders!!

Now the trick is to try and get back to that level one more time. Hey I have an idea; lets fix the offensive line!!

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In comment 14856415 Anakim said:

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1) Which Day 3 RBs do you see as good complements to Saquon? 2) Thoughts on LB Markus Bailey from Purdue? If he was healthy, would he be a Day 2 pick for sure? Same question for Terrell Lewis of Alabama, but would he be a consensus top-20 pick if his medicals checked out?

Wish I knew what Bailey's medicals have shown. He might be worth a risk if you really think he can pass all physicals, but not til Round 4, IMO. Lewis looked plenty healthy at Senior Bowl and passed their physical, which is pretty stringent. But buyer beware, Lewis is a great athlete, but ask your self how many plays he actually makes on game days. He has real trouble getting off good blockers.
I think you may have already found your backfield rotation guy in the signing of DEION LEWIS from the Titans, if he can stay healthy. Michael Warren from Cincy might be a good selection if he lasts til Round 7 and you have those 4 Picks still in hand.

Unfortunately, there are still some unanswered question still out there but I think we covered off the main bases. Great questions and we appreciate your patience with our slow typing. Please be safe everyone and maybe we can set something up with Eric for a post-draft follow-up.

Colin and Paul!