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Simmons is Very Frustrating to Watch

HugeS : 4/1/2020 11:40 pm
Theres no question he's a really special athlete, probably in the top 99.9 percentile for all linebackers that ever played in the NFL. His cover skills are already to a level where he could realistically be the best coverage linebacker in the NFL from day one. In space he's an absolute playmaker. The problem is like others have pointed out, the guy hates contact. He plays timid when negotiating blockers or taking on gap responsibilities. If you sit down and watch the All 22, just count how many business decisions he makes per game. He's clearly very smart, his read and diagnose is good, he's fluid in space, and he covers like a demon, but the dude will literally do anything he can to avoid mixing it up and getting his jersey dirty. Its actually maddening to think how special he could be if he had more of a Patrick Willis mentality. Unfortunately thats what he is right now, a lightning fast coverage guy so talented he can handle the deep middle or the slot but who is lets just politely say a bit risk averse when it comes to dealing with any action around the line of scrimmage. I really want to like Simmons at 4 but I'm just not sure. Do you guys think this one dimension to his game is too rare to pass up? Could this coaching staff get him to trust his instincts more and play more aggressively around the line of scrimmage?
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RE: RE: To be fair to the OP, this is the rub on Simmons  
PatersonPlank : 4/2/2020 11:24 am : link
In comment 14857160 mphbullet36 said:
Quote:
In comment 14857142 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


and why I can't see him playing in the MLB position in the NFL. He just isn't the guy who will stick his nose in there and push off the OG or Center. He needs to be wider and get 1-on-1 with the ball carrier or receiver. All this is my opinion of course



is that todays NFL though? Linebackers don't just take on OG all game long. They play much more in space. If our high priced/big name interior DL are doing there jobs Simmons shouldn't have to be consistently taking on OG's all game long. He should be allowed to go sideline to sideline wreaking havoc on opposing offenses.


Not at the middle LB positions. They need to be physical at the point of attack. Edge/OLB can get away with being less physical
RE: what was Brian Urlacher's scouting report coming out of college  
Section331 : 4/2/2020 11:32 am : link
In comment 14857125 mphbullet36 said:
Quote:
both have similar paths. Started at safety they grew and played a hybrid lineback. I still see Simmons flying around making big hits. So what if he isn't going to fly into an offensive lineup and break up a play.


Urlacher was a thumper, even at S at NM. Simmons doesn't at all fit that mold. That doesn't mean that Simmons isn't going to be an all-pro, but I sincerely doubt it will be at the MIKE as it was with Urlacher.
I will add that I think Simmons can play LB  
Section331 : 4/2/2020 11:36 am : link
in the right system. Put him at WOLB in a 3-4 set, and it really becomes a 3-3-5. His versatility is his biggest asset, you don't need to make any concessions if he is on an island covering a TE, RB or slot WR.
Everyone needs to a top with Urlacher  
Tuckrule : 4/2/2020 11:56 am : link
It’s honestly so dumb to me how people look at urlacher as a model for what Simmons can be. Urlacher was 258 at the combine. Let that sink in. 258!!! He was as physical as a linebacker could be. Could stack and shed and was a thickly built person who grew into his frame. Simmons is filled out. Narrow hips. Skinny legs naturally. He isn’t a middle linebacker. Urlacher had that mentality along with the toughness and size. The comparison to Urlacher is ridiculous. Think lavonte David before you think of Urlacher and David is 6 foot 1 230. 3 inches shorter 8 pounds lighter. Simmons coverage isn’t great. He’s tremendously overrated. He played zone often dropping down into the robber role. He wasn’t acting as a deep half or center field safety. Like I’ve said. The genius DC at Clemson saw Enough similarities with Jayron Kearse to offer Simmons the same role Kearse was offered. If Jayron Kearse, in the same system, had those free blitz lanes and racked up sacks and TFL would he have been the top 5 player in the draft.
RE: Again, to put actual facts  
Tuckrule : 4/2/2020 11:59 am : link
In comment 14857013 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
The guy made 21 plays last year behind the line of scrimmage

14 TFLs and 7 sacks.

The idea that he is just a chaser down the field and avoids contact and can’t be played up front does not match the facts,


You def have not seen one game tape. Please do yourself a favor and show me a player where he wasn’t schemed open and actually made a play on the ball in the backfield. Your going to find one clip where he bulldozes a back who has literally the worst blocking technique I’ve ever seen. Good luck doing that to AP, zeke or saquon. He’ll end like Keith rivers vs Hines ward
Running past a blocker with your 4.3 40  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 4/2/2020 12:02 pm : link
Is a form of block shedding.
Saw a comment  
UGADawgs7 : 4/2/2020 12:04 pm : link
Where someone stated he can be a QB spy... yeah we kind of witnessed Burrow make him his bitch in the CF championship...
RE: Running past a blocker with your 4.3 40  
Tuckrule : 4/2/2020 12:17 pm : link
In comment 14857266 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
Is a form of block shedding.


Laughable. Go watch his full game tapes vs charlotte and wofford. 2 terrible football schools and Simmons was truly invisible. Why? Both teams ran run heavy offenses and Simmons spent the game on the turf. Running past blockers also means your running away from your run lane. Part of run defense is filling the gap and stacking.
someone point me to a safety who rushes the passer like this  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2020 12:21 pm : link
Last year he rushed the passer just 72 times and came away with 30 total pressures, including eight sacks, four hits and 18 hurries. Also 5 FF in the past 2 years.

He is not LT and he is not Luke Kuechly - both are very different players. But Luke Kuechly wasn't LT and he was still a great LB. Let Simmons play his own style, and do the things he does exceptionally well and are crucial to today's game (particularly coverage and rushing the passer).

Watch these highlights then tell me what his stats would have looked like last year if he rushed the QB 400 times instead of 72...
Clemson LB Isaiah Simmons Highlights ᴴᴰ - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Running past a blocker with your 4.3 40  
mphbullet36 : 4/2/2020 12:39 pm : link
In comment 14857280 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 14857266 Coach Red Beaulieu said:


Quote:


Is a form of block shedding.



Laughable. Go watch his full game tapes vs charlotte and wofford. 2 terrible football schools and Simmons was truly invisible. Why? Both teams ran run heavy offenses and Simmons spent the game on the turf. Running past blockers also means your running away from your run lane. Part of run defense is filling the gap and stacking.


and how much of the CURRENT NFL is about stacking?

60% of NFL are passing and a lot more percentage of runs come out of the shotgun in 1 RB sets. Its more about playing in space then its about block shedding nowadays. You don't even draft lineman to be maulers anymore, its more zone blocking schemes.

The game has changed and your speaking like LB's need ot be in the mold of Carl Banks when they don't.

Guess the play with the below weaknesses coming out of the drat...

Weaknesses:
After adding 50 pounds during his stay in college, his frame may be beginning to max out
Thin through arms and chest and lacks desired, NFL play strength
Has very little margin for error when taking on climbing offensive linemen
Doesn't always take efficient routes around traffic in his pursuit
Play demeanor lacks aggression usually spotted at linebacker
Relies on athleticism to slip blocks on second level rather than racing downhill ahead of them
Willing hitter but needs to add more pop behind his pads
Can still improve instincts and pattern reading in man coverage
It seems there are a lot of posters  
Mike from Ohio : 4/2/2020 12:43 pm : link
who still view the ideal linebacker traits as being stout against the run and having a nasty streak. Those are good qualities, but not what is best suited to today's NFL game.

Simmons strength is not filling run gaps and leveling hits that can be featured on "jacked up" segments on ESPN. If that is what you are looking for then I am sure you hate the thought of drafting him at #4.

However, if you are looking for a guy with versatility and that brings speed, a high football IQ and production to a defense that last year had little of those, he is a good fit for this team.
It's still football  
LeonBright45 : 4/2/2020 12:51 pm : link
You trot Simmons out there at MLB against the 49ers, Titans, or Ravens and then inform the opposing offense that this is the new way we play football and they need to go 11 personal and run nothing but sweeps and shotgun draws. Otherwise prepare to see your modern day newfangled LB get broken in half. That is what is great about the game; no matter how people try to change it with the latest trends we still have to come back to the basics because they can't be avoided; just when you adapt your defense for the future half the teams then decide to go old school on you.
RE: It's still football  
mphbullet36 : 4/2/2020 12:55 pm : link
In comment 14857320 LeonBright45 said:
Quote:
You trot Simmons out there at MLB against the 49ers, Titans, or Ravens and then inform the opposing offense that this is the new way we play football and they need to go 11 personal and run nothing but sweeps and shotgun draws. Otherwise prepare to see your modern day newfangled LB get broken in half. That is what is great about the game; no matter how people try to change it with the latest trends we still have to come back to the basics because they can't be avoided; just when you adapt your defense for the future half the teams then decide to go old school on you.


correct and that is the job of our highly talented run stuffing interior DL to control the run game.

It will be Simmons job to try and slow down Kittle which very little people can do because of his size and speed. Simmons would be one of them.
I agree, that should be his assignment  
LeonBright45 : 4/2/2020 12:58 pm : link
AS A SAFETY, not as a LB
RE: Saw a comment  
twostepgiants : 4/2/2020 1:00 pm : link
In comment 14857267 UGADawgs7 said:
Quote:
Where someone stated he can be a QB spy... yeah we kind of witnessed Burrow make him his bitch in the CF championship...


Joe Burrow stated that LSU had to change its entire game plan to deal with Simmons affect in the game.

Remember the game before Clemson, Burrow threw for 400 yds abd 7 TD in a half!

So Id say Simmons did a pretty good job for 1 guy.




RE: I agree, that should be his assignment  
mphbullet36 : 4/2/2020 1:04 pm : link
In comment 14857328 LeonBright45 said:
Quote:
AS A SAFETY, not as a LB


and how many "safeties" get 7 sacks with also 30 pressures on about 70 pass rushes

the point is he can play more of a safety role vs run heavy teams and he can play linebacker and edge rusher/blitzer vs pass heavy teams.

His versatility makes him so valuable.
RE: RE: Again, to put actual facts  
twostepgiants : 4/2/2020 1:04 pm : link
In comment 14857264 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 14857013 twostepgiants said:


Quote:


The guy made 21 plays last year behind the line of scrimmage

14 TFLs and 7 sacks.

The idea that he is just a chaser down the field and avoids contact and can’t be played up front does not match the facts,



You def have not seen one game tape. Please do yourself a favor and show me a player where he wasn’t schemed open and actually made a play on the ball in the backfield. Your going to find one clip where he bulldozes a back who has literally the worst blocking technique I’ve ever seen. Good luck doing that to AP, zeke or saquon. He’ll end like Keith rivers vs Hines ward


Oh nonsense, he was just "schemed open". If its do easy why didnt every team just "scheme open" a guy to get 100+ tackles, 14 TFLs, 7 sacks etc?
The answer is Simmons has a unique skill set that allows the scheme to be developed to get him open
RE: RE: Again, to put actual facts  
twostepgiants : 4/2/2020 1:21 pm : link
In comment 14857264 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 14857013 twostepgiants said:


Quote:


The guy made 21 plays last year behind the line of scrimmage

14 TFLs and 7 sacks.

The idea that he is just a chaser down the field and avoids contact and can’t be played up front does not match the facts,



You def have not seen one game tape. Please do yourself a favor and show me a player where he wasn’t schemed open and actually made a play on the ball in the backfield. Your going to find one clip where he bulldozes a back who has literally the worst blocking technique I’ve ever seen. Good luck doing that to AP, zeke or saquon. He’ll end like Keith rivers vs Hines ward


Oh nonsense, he was just "schemed open". If its do easy why didnt every team just "scheme open" a guy to get 100+ tackles, 14 TFLs, 7 sacks etc?
The answer is Simmons has a unique skill set that allows the scheme to be developed to get him open
Two step  
Tuckrule : 4/2/2020 1:36 pm : link
Watch the film it’s all there. I urge you to chart every single TFL and sack he had. Just watch it. Schemes open is a real thing when your at Clemson behind that D line. You my friend are fooled by stats. Football isn’t baseball.
You'd swear..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/2/2020 1:37 pm : link
from some of these comments that Simmons purposely avoids contact, is a product of a system and hates playing the run. What's with the extreme hyperbole?

Someone watched his tapes against Charlotte and Wofford and thought he was invisible?? Well guess what that must mean? That he tore it up against the better schools and top-flight competition.

You can argue he shouldn't be the pick for us without making it seem like he's a bad player. He's likely going to have a very good NFL career.
Mph  
Tuckrule : 4/2/2020 1:39 pm : link
So Simmons has zero run responsibilities? Stacking and shedding is what every edge/linebacker needs to do. So well let him roam as the deep safety Aka Taylor mays. He’s going to be an epic failure based off the expectations people have for him. Your getting Taylor mays not Sean Taylor
His defensive..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/2/2020 1:43 pm : link
coordinator says how Simmons is different than Kearse:

Quote:
THE THING ABOUT finding a good linebacker, according to Venables, is the guy has to want to hit. He can't be subtle about it. Inflicting damage has to be more than a hobby.

"Guy's got to bite," Venables said, "and if he doesn't bite when he's a puppy, he won't when he's grown up."

Venables has tried to force the issue before. For all the new-age platitudes lauded upon Simmons this year, the hybrid linebacker position isn't new for Clemson. It was just a few years ago that Venables pushed Jayron Kearse to make a similar move from safety into the box, but Kearse wouldn't do it. Linebackers are grunts. Defensive backs have style. Kearse was a DB; or that's at least what Venables called him, regardless of how he actually was used.

Simmons is a different case.
Fatman  
Tuckrule : 4/2/2020 1:47 pm : link
No I’ve seen almost every game he’s played on tape. The full tape. Not YouTube highlights. I gave those 2 teams as examples vs the run heavy offense he’s atrocious. It’s funny how you twist my comments. He wasn’t good vs Ohio state at all. Check him in the slot. The only time he covered a WR. Goal line he defended the slot the guy didn’t even make a move and blew right by Simmons. He does not have fluid hips. Which is why when he played safety often it was the robber Role aka moving forward. I’ll repeat it again. Unless you think he’s Sean Taylor. You do not take him anywhere near the top 10. That’s my opinion. Let’s revisit these threads next offseason
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/2/2020 1:58 pm : link
Full tape.

Good for you. We'll see how well you processed the information you saw next year.
RE: LOL..  
Tuckrule : 4/2/2020 2:06 pm : link
In comment 14857397 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Full tape.

Good for you. We'll see how well you processed the information you saw next year.


You could mock me all you want. At least I watched as much film as I could to form my own opinion and I stand by it. I actually cited example. All I hear from the pro simmons guys is a scouting report they found on Walter football. You got time, go watch some full games. Educate yourself
like clockwork  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2020 2:18 pm : link
every year, people think that what a player is in college is ultimately what he will be in the pros. See: Daniel Jones, Odell Beckham, etc.

Simmons' upside in the NFL is literally off the charts. You aren't drafting him to be what he was at Clemson.
he's stretching out those 230 pounds  
bc4life : 4/2/2020 2:24 pm : link
over a 6'4" frame - should he be a safety? I'm thinking he is a safety who can play LB
RE: like clockwork  
UGADawgs7 : 4/2/2020 2:29 pm : link
In comment 14857422 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
every year, people think that what a player is in college is ultimately what he will be in the pros. See: Daniel Jones, Odell Beckham, etc.

Simmons' upside in the NFL is literally off the charts. You aren't drafting him to be what he was at Clemson.


So what are we drafting him to be? He was a system guy at Clemson. Out of nowhere he can do other things against pros? The only way he is worth the 4 pick is if he magically turns into Sean Taylor.
UGA  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2020 3:42 pm : link
how about a way more athletic version of Darius Leonard?
NFL  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2020 3:44 pm : link
is no longer a run up the middle league. It's a sideline to sideline game, which is why you see guys like Leonard taking the league by storm, he's all over the field. Simmons is that kind of guy. Forget about "oh he has to be a safety" or "oh he has to be OLB" just put him on the field, he'll make plays.
RE: It amazes me  
TMS : 4/2/2020 5:24 pm : link
In comment 14857066 NikkiMac said:
Quote:
That everybody just assumes he’s even going to be available to the Giants

It’s not set in stone that The Lions are going Odukah or making a trade

They might take Simmons
. Read this myself, then we will take Okudah or trade down. Seems simple if you want the value for that top 4 pick. None of the others do, they are flawed reach need picks like Pugh and Flowers. DG wants value there I am sure.
RE: RE: It amazes me  
Klaatu : 4/2/2020 5:53 pm : link
In comment 14857602 TMS said:
Quote:
In comment 14857066 NikkiMac said:


Quote:


That everybody just assumes he’s even going to be available to the Giants

It’s not set in stone that The Lions are going Odukah or making a trade

They might take Simmons

. Read this myself, then we will take Okudah or trade down. Seems simple if you want the value for that top 4 pick. None of the others do, they are flawed reach need picks like Pugh and Flowers. DG wants value there I am sure.


Please explain in detail exactly how Jedrick Wills is a "flawed reach" comparable to Justin Pugh and Ereck Flowers.

Thanks in advance.
RE: RE: LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/2/2020 5:59 pm : link
In comment 14857409 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 14857397 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


Full tape.

Good for you. We'll see how well you processed the information you saw next year.



You could mock me all you want. At least I watched as much film as I could to form my own opinion and I stand by it. I actually cited example. All I hear from the pro simmons guys is a scouting report they found on Walter football. You got time, go watch some full games. Educate yourself


Great. So you watched tape and are now an expert?? I saw Daniel Jones play games and I thought he'd be a terrible NFL QB. I cited examples of where he struggled. If it were as easy to watch tape, any fucking schlub can get a TV and be a draft expert.

If you watch tape and come away with the impression Simmons doesn't like contact - I don't know what to fucking tell you.

Well, I actually do know what to tell you - but you aren't too accepting of it....
RE: he's stretching out those 230 pounds  
section125 : 4/2/2020 7:47 pm : link
In comment 14857429 bc4life said:
Quote:
over a 6'4" frame - should he be a safety? I'm thinking he is a safety who can play LB


Closer to 240, but Peppers basically is playing LB at 205, as was Collins at 215.
Yes he is lanky. But his legs look pretty stout, which is were the power comes from.
Wasn't Leonard Floyd an ER/OLB for the Bears at 235 lbs and he was actually thinner than Simmons?
RE: It amazes me  
shyster : 4/2/2020 7:54 pm : link
In comment 14857066 NikkiMac said:
Quote:
That everybody just assumes he’s even going to be available to the Giants

It’s not set in stone that The Lions are going Odukah or making a trade

They might take Simmons


Lions' free agency moves do not fit a plan for Simmons.

He won't go top 3.


usatoday - ( New Window )
I've seen Simmons used as a "Jack of All Trades" defender for matchups  
SGMen : 4/2/2020 8:32 pm : link
Simmons is your starting FS, I do believe, as his best skill is his athleticism and speed. He understand the game and would make a great mid-fielder.
He could play nickel LB in coverage and occassionally blitz as well.
But he isn't a WLB or MLB by any means.
This is a laughable thread  
JoeyBigBlue : 4/2/2020 9:29 pm : link
The OP makes a silly claim and shows no proof of his claim. Simmons is considered the one of the top 3 prospects in this entire draft by many. Guess they are all wrong.
Kam Chancellor  
bc4life : 4/2/2020 10:15 pm : link
Was 6’3” -225.

Simmons is 6’4. 230. Obviously Chancellor was a collision expert but shows someone that size can play safety at extremely high level. And you still have the ability to use him as a pass rusher. I think he’s a safety-plus. A team may lower his ceiling by insisting that he play linebacker
Tuckrule touched upon it  
JonC : 4/2/2020 10:18 pm : link
it's the slim hips and skinny legs he has that you never see on an NFL LB. Easier to get injured and not be able to withstand the rigors of the NFL game. So, the 6'4 238 is a bit misleading because he's 6'4. He could be the new breed of speed, he could be a cog in the future NYG defense, I just don't want to invest the #4 overall pick in a hybrid FS/ILB at this point in time.
Lot of people arguing for him at # 4 pick.  
bc4life : 4/2/2020 10:21 pm : link
Wonder if it would change their minds if Judge said we’re going to play him primarily as a safety?
RE: Tuckrule touched upon it  
twostepgiants : 4/2/2020 10:41 pm : link
In comment 14857800 JonC said:
Quote:
it's the slim hips and skinny legs he has that you never see on an NFL LB. Easier to get injured and not be able to withstand the rigors of the NFL game. So, the 6'4 238 is a bit misleading because he's 6'4. He could be the new breed of speed, he could be a cog in the future NYG defense, I just don't want to invest the #4 overall pick in a hybrid FS/ILB at this point in time.


Buried in a Nate Ebner quote, Bill Belichick said this

“at a position that he plays right in the middle of the field, which is among the most difficult – inside linebacker and safety – where the number of things that can happen is the greatest."

The number of things that can happen is the greatest, maybe the ILB/FS is severely misundervalued one?
RE: RE: Tuckrule touched upon it  
JonC : 4/2/2020 10:46 pm : link
In comment 14857823 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14857800 JonC said:


Quote:


it's the slim hips and skinny legs he has that you never see on an NFL LB. Easier to get injured and not be able to withstand the rigors of the NFL game. So, the 6'4 238 is a bit misleading because he's 6'4. He could be the new breed of speed, he could be a cog in the future NYG defense, I just don't want to invest the #4 overall pick in a hybrid FS/ILB at this point in time.



Buried in a Nate Ebner quote, Bill Belichick said this

“at a position that he plays right in the middle of the field, which is among the most difficult – inside linebacker and safety – where the number of things that can happen is the greatest."

The number of things that can happen is the greatest, maybe the ILB/FS is severely misundervalued one?


When Belicheck spends a #4 overall pick in there, I'll listen.
Jaylon Smith  
allstarjim : 4/2/2020 11:27 pm : link
Plays linebacker, pretty good at it, too.

Also, he's good against the run.

Telvin Smith who was so critical on that great Jacksonville defense that should've beat the Patriots in the playoffs if not for a blown down by contact call on a fumble recovery that would've been a scoop and score.

Why are/were these guys so successful? Great linebackers! Both are smaller than Simmons.

Von Miller...combine weight 8 lbs bigger than Simmons, one of the fiercest pass rushers in our game and will be a HOFer.

Simmons is a instinctual, intelligent, player with rare, rare, rare physical gifts. I can see him on the edge with the QB not knowing if he's going to blow past his RT or run with his TE or spy or drop into zone coverage. And he can do all of that very well, which makes him a dangerous weapon on the defense.

His tape isn't perfect. He can clean things up. But that's what you have your NFL coaches for. And he has the ability and intelligence to soak all that up and be a better player than he was in college.

He's 21 years old with his best football I'm front of him. Our defense has NFL top 5 potential if he is what I think he is, which is an offensive game plan wrecker and complete mismatch wherever you put him.

You guys are worried about Guards blocking him out of plays...well first you have to get your hands on him, and he's going to beat those guys more often than not because of his speed and quickness. He's too damn fast for these guys.

If we're at 4 and he's on the board, unless I can move down and get extra picks, he's my guy.
RE: Jaylon Smith  
Tuckrule : 4/3/2020 7:47 am : link
In comment 14857849 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Plays linebacker, pretty good at it, too.

Also, he's good against the run.

Telvin Smith who was so critical on that great Jacksonville defense that should've beat the Patriots in the playoffs if not for a blown down by contact call on a fumble recovery that would've been a scoop and score.

Why are/were these guys so successful? Great linebackers! Both are smaller than Simmons.

Von Miller...combine weight 8 lbs bigger than Simmons, one of the fiercest pass rushers in our game and will be a HOFer.

Simmons is a instinctual, intelligent, player with rare, rare, rare physical gifts. I can see him on the edge with the QB not knowing if he's going to blow past his RT or run with his TE or spy or drop into zone coverage. And he can do all of that very well, which makes him a dangerous weapon on the defense.

His tape isn't perfect. He can clean things up. But that's what you have your NFL coaches for. And he has the ability and intelligence to soak all that up and be a better player than he was in college.

He's 21 years old with his best football I'm front of him. Our defense has NFL top 5 potential if he is what I think he is, which is an offensive game plan wrecker and complete mismatch wherever you put him.

You guys are worried about Guards blocking him out of plays...well first you have to get your hands on him, and he's going to beat those guys more often than not because of his speed and quickness. He's too damn fast for these guys.

If we're at 4 and he's on the board, unless I can move down and get extra picks, he's my guy.


Jaylon Smith 6 foot 2 240. 2 inches shorter and 2 lbs heavier. Also jaylon always played linebacker. Besides being stockier it’s a mentality.

It wasn’t telvin Smith it was Myles jack.

Von Miller. 6 foot 3 250. 1 inch shorter 12 lbs heavier.

These comparisons are forced and are ridiculous. Your comparing a converted safety to a hybrid linebacker to a guy in jaylon who played the position his whole life and if not for blowing out his knee was a top 10 lock at the linebacker position. Comparing von Miller to Simmons!!! Holy shit. Von Miller has heavy hands is fast as hell and has much more flexibility in his bend and dip then Simmons could dream about not to mention he’s shorter and 12 lbs heavier. Look at their lower bodies. Stop focusing on his weight. Look at his frame and size and tell me if that will hold up rushing vs NFL tackles. He doesn’t have the base to hold up anywhere near the LOS
Listed height and weight isn't apples to apples  
JonC : 4/3/2020 8:11 am : link
You have to look at their build from shoulders to legs, their power to anchor the point of attack against much larger men, etc. Landon Collins isn't much smaller than Lavonte David, if you only look at their roster listings, and yet LC is not able to play LB fulltime in the NFL. Simmons from the waist down is not your typical LB, slim hips and skinny legs. It doesn't mean he cannot play in the NFL, but it does mean his game is not predicated on power.
why dont we all just say that SImmons is the greatest player in  
Victor in CT : 4/3/2020 8:31 am : link
the draft and Clowney is the greatest FA ever, then we can delete 2 threads that wont die LOL
A Clarification of Original Post  
HugeS : 4/3/2020 2:12 pm : link
Became a big Simmons fans after watching the LSU game. I saw the highlight tape on Voch Lombardi's channel and started watching his games over. Like many here I became a Giants fan and started playing football because of LT. He's the untouchable gold standard. Going in I loved Simmons intangibles even if posters whose strong opinions I respect like JonC said he's not a true linebacker. Ended up sitting down watching some complete games and came to the conclusions I put in the start of thread. I've gone back and re watched all the games I could and actually charted everything Simmons did. I've spent more time on this than I'd care to admit. Its too much to put in this thread. I could start a separate thread with my notes or at least provide links to notable games if people here want to do their own research.

Like many others on this board, I'm just a passionate fan who wants to see things with my own eyes. There are a ton of lazy analysts and talking heads out there spouting bullshit about players. I have tremendous respect for the professionals that are actually very serious about their craft and really take the time to study the players like Sy56. The work he does to inform and educate us is invaluable.

1. People saying Simmons plays and feels more natural at safety are right. Its clear he's still feeling his way at the position and the vibe that he's sometimes going through the motions or not playing as aggressively may be a product of this. Didn't realize he's literally only taken reps as a linebacker for two seasons at Clemson. He played wr and free safety in high school. His progression to becoming one of the best college players in the country is much more impressive in this context. After seeing a larger number of his reps I realized that when he was confident about what was in front of him you started seeing some of those alpha traits emerge.

2. My opinion that Simmons hates contact was overstated in my OP and I retract some of what I felt earlier. Clemson has an extremely physical defense, one of the most physical in the country. Simmons was surrounded by playmakers that thrive on physical aggression like James Skalski, and K'von Wallace. He's not them, but his inability to fill a gap with the hair on fire approach of a Skalski was as much a product of learning to trust his instincts while reading and diagnosing things close to the line of scrimmage as a lack of desire to get dirty.

3. His physical limitations - This has been way overstated. Yeah he's tall and skinny but the guy is very big and plenty strong for a modern outside linebacker with a lot of room to grow. When he did take on full grown man size tackles and guards he was getting turned but he wasn't getting smashed. Like many have pointed out his skinny legs aren't gonna win any powerlifting championships, but he is by no means a weakling who just tucks and runs at the first sign of an oncoming blocker. What you see is a total lack of experience where he struggles to use his hands to effectively disengage from blockers at the attack point or fails to keep his eyes upfield when wading through trash. LSU game exposed his struggles on the biggest stage but this was going on all season. He'd let blockers get their hands into his body and turn him or he'd turn his head and shoulders into the blocker while attacking a side, taking himself completely out the play before it even got to him. The same lack of experience showed up when he was asked to bring pressure off the edge. He had no effective plan most of the time except to out athlete his blocker, but you started to see a viable dip and rip move emerging through the course of the season. If he could learn how to set up blockers better with his speed move and finish with an effective counter like an inside spin he could become a devastating situational pass rusher off the edge even if he's not the bendiest athlete in the world.

3. Clemson loved using him at free safety and manning the slot. He's most at home playing the deep safety role where he can comfortably see everything in front of him and run and chase the action. They'd line him up in zone schemes across from the slot receiver a lot. In the Ohio State game he was used mostly at free safety which was really frustrating to watch for someone hoping to see linebacker reps, but showed how much Venables trusted him manning the back end. It worked since he was part of a unit that effectively neutralized Ohio State's vertical attack and forced Fields to work underneath where he struggled. Simmons isn't quick footed enough to play man to man on quick twitch athletes like scat backs and slot receivers, but he's perfectly built to eliminate tight ends, and he has the recover speed to handle wideouts in zones.

4. He'll be an extremely effective weapon against the new breed of dual threat option QBs taking over the league like Lamar Jackson and Kyler Murray. Clemson used him a lot as a spy. He had arguably his best game against Louisville who had two speed QB's and ran option all game. On one these designed plays Simmons shocked Cunningham in the backfield he closed on him so fast.

5. LSU game showed he can be a really good linebacker but he's also a major work in progress who'll need time to develop. This game was like a game of two halves. In the first half up until the final drive, he showed the confidence and instincts of somebody making plays and not overthinking things. He played like an absolute stud. In the final drive of first half and a lot of the second half he looked more unsure of himself and seemed confused by some of what LSU was throwing at him. In fairness LSU runs some of the most complex blocking schemes in the country. The traps they were setting up at the line of scrimmage were more in line with what Simmons will have to face week in and week out in the NFL.

6. In conclusion I've circled around and think Simmons could turn out to be a really good pick at 4 if the Giants are patient. His game screams classic Ron Rivera or Pete Carroll pick who becomes an all pro in their system in a few years.
He fills a lot of boxes in the new more play action, spread oriented modern NFL but shouldn't be expected to be a superstar right out of the gate. The Giants defense is desperate for playmakers but he's not Chase Young or Zach Baun who have the highly developed skill sets to jump into a starting front seven and ball out on day one. He'll need a coaching staff that brings him on slowly enough to tap his potential without overwhelming him. His floor is higher as a safety in the NFL but his ceiling is higher as a linebacker. If Patrick Graham and his coaching staff develop him the right way he could go from a situational movable chess piece with plus coverage skills to one of the best linebackers in the league in three or four years. he'll be the ultimate litmus test of a coaching staff's ability to teach and motivate since the potential is sky high.
@HugeS  
nyfootballfan : 4/3/2020 3:49 pm : link
your clarification seems like a very polite panning.
of course we may all eat our words here
but i don't think he's worthy of a top 5, if even 10.
looks like a tweener who'll be eaten up by run game.
a very high ceiling project.
most importantly is he an athlete or a football player?
RE: RE: Running past a blocker with your 4.3 40  
allstarjim : 4/3/2020 4:19 pm : link
In comment 14857280 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 14857266 Coach Red Beaulieu said:


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Is a form of block shedding.



Laughable. Go watch his full game tapes vs charlotte and wofford. 2 terrible football schools and Simmons was truly invisible. Why? Both teams ran run heavy offenses and Simmons spent the game on the turf. Running past blockers also means your running away from your run lane. Part of run defense is filling the gap and stacking.


He was invisible? I saw him make a tremendous INT vs Wofford. I think he only played one half of football in that game. I haven't found video of that full game tape or vs Charlotte. Where are you watching it? If you have a link or resource to share I'd appreciate it.
RE: RE: Jaylon Smith  
allstarjim : 4/3/2020 4:32 pm : link
In comment 14857912 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 14857849 allstarjim said:


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Plays linebacker, pretty good at it, too.

Also, he's good against the run.

Telvin Smith who was so critical on that great Jacksonville defense that should've beat the Patriots in the playoffs if not for a blown down by contact call on a fumble recovery that would've been a scoop and score.

Why are/were these guys so successful? Great linebackers! Both are smaller than Simmons.

Von Miller...combine weight 8 lbs bigger than Simmons, one of the fiercest pass rushers in our game and will be a HOFer.

Simmons is a instinctual, intelligent, player with rare, rare, rare physical gifts. I can see him on the edge with the QB not knowing if he's going to blow past his RT or run with his TE or spy or drop into zone coverage. And he can do all of that very well, which makes him a dangerous weapon on the defense.

His tape isn't perfect. He can clean things up. But that's what you have your NFL coaches for. And he has the ability and intelligence to soak all that up and be a better player than he was in college.

He's 21 years old with his best football I'm front of him. Our defense has NFL top 5 potential if he is what I think he is, which is an offensive game plan wrecker and complete mismatch wherever you put him.

You guys are worried about Guards blocking him out of plays...well first you have to get your hands on him, and he's going to beat those guys more often than not because of his speed and quickness. He's too damn fast for these guys.

If we're at 4 and he's on the board, unless I can move down and get extra picks, he's my guy.



Jaylon Smith 6 foot 2 240. 2 inches shorter and 2 lbs heavier. Also jaylon always played linebacker. Besides being stockier it’s a mentality.

It wasn’t telvin Smith it was Myles jack.

Von Miller. 6 foot 3 250. 1 inch shorter 12 lbs heavier.

These comparisons are forced and are ridiculous. Your comparing a converted safety to a hybrid linebacker to a guy in jaylon who played the position his whole life and if not for blowing out his knee was a top 10 lock at the linebacker position. Comparing von Miller to Simmons!!! Holy shit. Von Miller has heavy hands is fast as hell and has much more flexibility in his bend and dip then Simmons could dream about not to mention he’s shorter and 12 lbs heavier. Look at their lower bodies. Stop focusing on his weight. Look at his frame and size and tell me if that will hold up rushing vs NFL tackles. He doesn’t have the base to hold up anywhere near the LOS


First of all, I said Telvin Smith and meant Telvin Smith. Anyone who knew that 2017 team knew that Telvin Smith was a huge part of that defense. He made the Pro Bowl that year, racked up over 100 tackles in just 14 games, had a few interceptions, a couple of forced fumbles, and was very good as a coverage linebacker. And his listed height/weight he played at was 6'3" 215 lbs.

Secondly, if we are comparing apples to apples, which is what I was doing, I am comparing their combine measurables, not after they've been in an NFL program for several years. Simmons is 238 lbs right now. Jaylon Smith weighed in at the combine at 6'2", 223 lbs.

So, if you are saying that Jaylon Smith was able to be as fast as he was in college and put on an additional 22 lbs in the NFL (his listed weight is 245 lbs today), then I feel pretty good that Simmons can add another 7 or 8. This is not a small guy, he has enough right now, and he will get more weight on...it just will happen because he's still growing in to that frame at only 21 years old.
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