Theres no question he's a really special athlete, probably in the top 99.9 percentile for all linebackers that ever played in the NFL. His cover skills are already to a level where he could realistically be the best coverage linebacker in the NFL from day one. In space he's an absolute playmaker. The problem is like others have pointed out, the guy hates contact. He plays timid when negotiating blockers or taking on gap responsibilities. If you sit down and watch the All 22, just count how many business decisions he makes per game. He's clearly very smart, his read and diagnose is good, he's fluid in space, and he covers like a demon, but the dude will literally do anything he can to avoid mixing it up and getting his jersey dirty. Its actually maddening to think how special he could be if he had more of a Patrick Willis mentality. Unfortunately thats what he is right now, a lightning fast coverage guy so talented he can handle the deep middle or the slot but who is lets just politely say a bit risk averse when it comes to dealing with any action around the line of scrimmage. I really want to like Simmons at 4 but I'm just not sure. Do you guys think this one dimension to his game is too rare to pass up? Could this coaching staff get him to trust his instincts more and play more aggressively around the line of scrimmage?
Ramses Barden; amazing athlete that is capable of incredible physical feats, BUT it's just not in him to mix-it-up ...
In other words, he could be s world-class tennis or golf player.
We could run right over Simmons couple of times with our Tight Ends blocking him easily and then run play action and just watch him bite. Jones over the top to Engram, TD Giants!!
Simmons is not someone the offense fears. His lack of physicality will only be more apparent in the NFL. I don't want him. If the Giants pick him I will root for him to be lined up as our Free Safety with Peppers at SS.
Total truth. I do think Simmons is both worth the 4th pick and will be a great pro, but he won’t be LT. Nobody will be.
Simmons is no Sean Taylor
His two best traits are coverage and his sideline to sideline tackling ability. Both of those are extremely valuable traits in the NFL.
If he can't fight off a block to make a tackle as an ILB, and he would get crushed trying to set the edge as an OLB, he is a Safety in the NFL. I'm sure that he can play "coverage LB" on passing plays, but he is what I consider to be a back seven player, not a front seven player.
The best Safeties were a little bit crazy. Simmons is a very tame, play it safe kind of player. Might make a good pro, but I see nothing that leads me to believe that he can elevate a Defense and intimidate an Offense.
which of our linebackers do you currently trust to run with tight ends/running backs or play in that soft part of the zone in the middle of the field where we've been burned so many damned times over the years?
I guess you believe that Simmons will be instructed to just hang back; let the real linebackers take on the guard, fill the hole, and make the tackle.
I definitely remember getting killed by Westbrook, Witten, etc in the middle of the field.
If I had to guess, I think Simmons would be a very valuable asset in todays league.
I am waiting for Sy’s LB review with a lot of curiosity. I expect him to rate Simmons very highly as an LB. That should prompt some good discussion.
They all have something about their game, AA or physique you'd like to improve. Nevertheless they are really good players. The Reddest of red chips prospects.
They all have something about their game, AA or physique you'd like to improve. Nevertheless they are really good players. The Reddest of red chips prospects.
Except for the people who think he is above Young...
The only contact is the tackle.
Brian Urlacher he ain't, and he's not likely to become that.
I don't think players "grow into" liking contact or relishing the physical nature of the game. Bryan Kehl part II, just faster, twitchier.
I just think he has a hard time disengaging from blockers.....which is a major concern.
And
Why I prefer him after a trade down
His two best traits are coverage and his sideline to sideline tackling ability. Both of those are extremely valuable traits in the NFL.
Then he should be a FS
https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/isaiah-simmons/y6TJzAJbpC
https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/isaiah-simmons/y6TJzAJbpC
Great question. Here's a few pieces every one who's not sure about Isaiah Simmons being the absolute choice for the Giants at #4 should review. His improvement in his 2nd year as a LB is evident.
Riddick is on point with his assessment..... "ESPN's Louis Riddick says he has a feeling there will be a change in management by season's end if the Giants don't pick Simmons.
"This guy fits everything they absolutely need on the defensive side," Riddick said. "They do not have pass rushers. They don't have linebackers who can run and cover like him. And they have no one in the secondary who can come close to matching his overall physical ability can be. He can play two-to-three positions in the secondary and all three linebacker positions and he can rush the passer if you needed him too -- although that's not really what his forte is.
Read more: https://www.tigernet.com/update/ESPN-analysts-break-down-Isaiah-Simmons-as-top-4-NFL-draft-pick-35254#ixzz6IS68MRt6
2019:
https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/athletic-freak-and-swiss-army-knife--isaiah-simmons
2020:
https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/isaiah-simmons/y6TJzAJbpC
ESPN Commentary
https://www.tigernet.com/update/ESPN-analysts-break-down-Isaiah-Simmons-as-top-4-NFL-draft-pick-35254?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TigernetClemsonUpdates+%28TigerNet.com+-+Clemson+Tiger+Updates%29
I think he's a terrific blitzer, and you can employ him as a QB spy which is really helpful in some games. Remember the Arizona Cardinals game last year and what Kyler Murray did to us?
I think people focus on the coverage ability so much, and that's fine, but he's really a multi-dimensional defensive weapon.
I actually think I might like him more than Chase Young.
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that we are a fan base accustomed to the best linebacker play in NFL history for those that have been Giants fans for long enough. I mean LT played with a separated shoulder. On another occasion he literally beat the Lions on his own back in the day, a game he was questionable to play in due to injury no less. Can you imagine that happening in today’s NFL? Simmons is a unique player that can be placed in a variety of positions and can excel. It’s a much different game than it used to be. More about speed and versatility than strength and nastiness. And Taylor had the speed, versatility, strength, and nastiness for the record. Best player of all time. I think Simmons will be a player, but don’t expect that nasty streak past players have exemplified. I don’t think you will see that too much in the future from many players.
Total truth. I do think Simmons is both worth the 4th pick and will be a great pro, but he won’t be LT. Nobody will be.
As I speculated/asked in another thread - he may not be another LT in ferocity, guts etc, but could he be another LT in shifting a position's paradigm?
Combine weight was 238. Or 15 lbs heavier than Jaylon Smith weighed at the combine. He'll probably play at 240 lbs.
You just said the guy is one of the 99.9% physically gifted players to ever enter in NFL and already the best cover LB in league
But
He had 104 tackles, 14 TAckles for Loss and 7 sacks
It seems like he hit alot of people for a guy who likes to avoid contact.
BINGO!!! Great athlete does not necessarily = Great Football Player. ANd as JonC has pointed out, Simmons is a chaser. Chasers arent inpact palyers in the NFL.
https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/isaiah-simmons/y6TJzAJbpC
Because that outfit - draftnetwork - is utter garbage. Bunch of internet savvy youngstas without 15 mins of professional scouting experience among the whole lot of them.
Look up the various members' credentials: bright kids, internet savvy, love football. Nothing else.
14 TFLs and 7 sacks.
The idea that he is just a chaser down the field and avoids contact and can’t be played up front does not match the facts,
Otherwise we’re just going to think you don’t like the guy
Everyone who likes Simmons refers to Judge's statements regarding multiplicity.
They seem to have glanced over the statements Judge made about playing historic NY Giants football again, his statements about being physical and hard nosed.
IIRC, Judge emphasized physical play
more than once before he mentioned "multiple."
Coverage-wise, he's really good in zone as you might expect for someone of his speed, smarts, and instincts. And he has all three in abundance.
But in man coverage he can get beat with good route running (not up the seam, though, he'd have to pull a hammy to get beat up the seam).
I really, really want an OT, but Simmons is the one guy I would probably take over the OT. He will change a defense.
14 TFLs and 7 sacks.
The idea that he is just a chaser down the field and avoids contact and can’t be played up front does not match the facts,
Every IS sack, INT, TFL 2019 - ( New Window )
You would think that the Giants haven't won a Super Bowl since 1991.
Or have they. How could they have ever done that without covering running backs or TE's?
There are many reasons they could draft him, the most important are allowing the defense the ability to not substitute out of the base defense, freeing up Peppers to not be the only guy who can cover a TE, shutting down all qb spy, qb zone read, and bootleg action. You can disguise who is coming on a blitz better if there are more players that can cover on the field.
These are some of the schematic advantages
It has been so long since we had legitimate LBs on this team most people on this Board have forgotten what it means. All we have had are slow plodding players. This guy has a gear we have not seen for a while. He is no LT but no one is.
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The guy made 21 plays last year behind the line of scrimmage
14 TFLs and 7 sacks.
The idea that he is just a chaser down the field and avoids contact and can’t be played up front does not match the facts,
View the link. I don’t see the pass rush ability. Every IS sack, INT, TFL 2019 - ( New Window )
He is not a stand at the line of scrimmage ER. He is an attack from mid level LB.
It’s not set in stone that The Lions are going Odukah or making a trade
They might take Simmons
(I think I did that right, if not here it is for a cut-and-paste https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-7_vc8AJE4)
Short version - there are several examples in the film of him going through contact. However, there are even more of him going around people and making plays.
I really think it's a loaded statement to view him going around people as a negative. Was Barry Sanders a bad RB because he didn't run people over like Jerome Bettis? Simmons is built long and tall, and he's incredibly fast. Why would he default to trying to use strength when speed is his best asset?
Provided the coaching staff uses him correctly there is every reason to believe Simmons can be a stud defender and I don't see any reason why he'd be a bad idea at #4. (I still prefer a trade down + OT if we can work it out, but the prospects of that are looking pretty shaky these days.)
Link - ( New Window )
I didn't watch enough of them to know but its the million dollar question IMO.
If he can't fight off a block to make a tackle as an ILB, and he would get crushed trying to set the edge as an OLB, he is a Safety in the NFL. I'm sure that he can play "coverage LB" on passing plays, but he is what I consider to be a back seven player, not a front seven player.
The best Safeties were a little bit crazy. Simmons is a very tame, play it safe kind of player. Might make a good pro, but I see nothing that leads me to believe that he can elevate a Defense and intimidate an Offense.
I agree with everything the OP said and what Leon says here, but I will say that I think Simmons is pretty good at setting the edge and forcing the ball carrier into traffic. He is risk averse, avoids contact with bigger OL.
The thing that really bothers me about him though is the occasional lack of hustler. In the Nat Champ game, Burrow took off down the right sideline, and Simmons jogged after him. IN THE FUCKING NAT CHAMP GAME! If he's not going to bust ass there, what does he do in game 6 at Detroit?
There is a lot to like about Simmons - elite coverage skills, sideline to sideline speed, and I do think he could thrive in a system that uses him right, but he is going to be a lightning rod type of player.
(I think I did that right, if not here it is for a cut-and-paste https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-7_vc8AJE4)
Short version - there are several examples in the film of him going through contact. However, there are even more of him going around people and making plays.
I really think it's a loaded statement to view him going around people as a negative. Was Barry Sanders a bad RB because he didn't run people over like Jerome Bettis? Simmons is built long and tall, and he's incredibly fast. Why would he default to trying to use strength when speed is his best asset?
Provided the coaching staff uses him correctly there is every reason to believe Simmons can be a stud defender and I don't see any reason why he'd be a bad idea at #4. (I still prefer a trade down + OT if we can work it out, but the prospects of that are looking pretty shaky these days.) Link - ( New Window )
This. Keeping Simmons clean made a lot more sense than using him as a traditional linebacker. Because of his speed, his ability to identify the ball and diagnose plays and then change direction and shoot out of a cannon enabled him to routinely turn potential big gains into short ones or negative ones. He's lethal in space and can chase down scrambling qb's trying to evade pressure, RB's on screens and wheel routes, tight ends up the seam, etc.
one example - ( New Window )
Why in the world are we drafting Dexter Lawerence and paying Leonard Williams $16 MM to do? Those guys are suppose to eat up blockers and let the guys like Blake Martinez/Peppers/ and maybe soon Simmons to fly around and make plays.
This guy can blitz off the edge at corner. He can rush the edge as a DE on passing downs. He can line up on a slot WR or TE and guard him m2m or in zone.
He can even play the deep middle if we really need with his sideline to sideline speed.
If we have the interior play to free him up to run sideline to sideline then we should have no worries about him "not mixing it up". If he uses his speed and athleticism to make the play...who cares?
I definitely remember getting killed by Westbrook, Witten, etc in the middle of the field.
If I had to guess, I think Simmons would be a very valuable asset in todays league.
100%, a drop back LB wreaks havoc on the NFL, period.
is that todays NFL though? Linebackers don't just take on OG all game long. They play much more in space. If our high priced/big name interior DL are doing there jobs Simmons shouldn't have to be consistently taking on OG's all game long. He should be allowed to go sideline to sideline wreaking havoc on opposing offenses.
There can be reasons why he won't be the pick at #4 and you can make the case that he's a better S than LB, but we shouldn't be making shit up or acting as if the guy avoids contact because he doesn't want to hit or be hit.
(I think I did that right, if not here it is for a cut-and-paste https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-7_vc8AJE4)
Short version - there are several examples in the film of him going through contact. However, there are even more of him going around people and making plays.
I really think it's a loaded statement to view him going around people as a negative. Was Barry Sanders a bad RB because he didn't run people over like Jerome Bettis? Simmons is built long and tall, and he's incredibly fast. Why would he default to trying to use strength when speed is his best asset?
Provided the coaching staff uses him correctly there is every reason to believe Simmons can be a stud defender and I don't see any reason why he'd be a bad idea at #4. (I still prefer a trade down + OT if we can work it out, but the prospects of that are looking pretty shaky these days.) Link - ( New Window )
"there are even more of him going around people and making plays."
That's in college. Big difference
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and why I can't see him playing in the MLB position in the NFL. He just isn't the guy who will stick his nose in there and push off the OG or Center. He needs to be wider and get 1-on-1 with the ball carrier or receiver. All this is my opinion of course
is that todays NFL though? Linebackers don't just take on OG all game long. They play much more in space. If our high priced/big name interior DL are doing there jobs Simmons shouldn't have to be consistently taking on OG's all game long. He should be allowed to go sideline to sideline wreaking havoc on opposing offenses.
Not at the middle LB positions. They need to be physical at the point of attack. Edge/OLB can get away with being less physical
Urlacher was a thumper, even at S at NM. Simmons doesn't at all fit that mold. That doesn't mean that Simmons isn't going to be an all-pro, but I sincerely doubt it will be at the MIKE as it was with Urlacher.
14 TFLs and 7 sacks.
The idea that he is just a chaser down the field and avoids contact and can’t be played up front does not match the facts,
You def have not seen one game tape. Please do yourself a favor and show me a player where he wasn’t schemed open and actually made a play on the ball in the backfield. Your going to find one clip where he bulldozes a back who has literally the worst blocking technique I’ve ever seen. Good luck doing that to AP, zeke or saquon. He’ll end like Keith rivers vs Hines ward
Laughable. Go watch his full game tapes vs charlotte and wofford. 2 terrible football schools and Simmons was truly invisible. Why? Both teams ran run heavy offenses and Simmons spent the game on the turf. Running past blockers also means your running away from your run lane. Part of run defense is filling the gap and stacking.
He is not LT and he is not Luke Kuechly - both are very different players. But Luke Kuechly wasn't LT and he was still a great LB. Let Simmons play his own style, and do the things he does exceptionally well and are crucial to today's game (particularly coverage and rushing the passer).
Watch these highlights then tell me what his stats would have looked like last year if he rushed the QB 400 times instead of 72...
Clemson LB Isaiah Simmons Highlights ᴴᴰ - ( New Window )
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Is a form of block shedding.
Laughable. Go watch his full game tapes vs charlotte and wofford. 2 terrible football schools and Simmons was truly invisible. Why? Both teams ran run heavy offenses and Simmons spent the game on the turf. Running past blockers also means your running away from your run lane. Part of run defense is filling the gap and stacking.
and how much of the CURRENT NFL is about stacking?
60% of NFL are passing and a lot more percentage of runs come out of the shotgun in 1 RB sets. Its more about playing in space then its about block shedding nowadays. You don't even draft lineman to be maulers anymore, its more zone blocking schemes.
The game has changed and your speaking like LB's need ot be in the mold of Carl Banks when they don't.
Guess the play with the below weaknesses coming out of the drat...
Weaknesses:
After adding 50 pounds during his stay in college, his frame may be beginning to max out
Thin through arms and chest and lacks desired, NFL play strength
Has very little margin for error when taking on climbing offensive linemen
Doesn't always take efficient routes around traffic in his pursuit
Play demeanor lacks aggression usually spotted at linebacker
Relies on athleticism to slip blocks on second level rather than racing downhill ahead of them
Willing hitter but needs to add more pop behind his pads
Can still improve instincts and pattern reading in man coverage
Simmons strength is not filling run gaps and leveling hits that can be featured on "jacked up" segments on ESPN. If that is what you are looking for then I am sure you hate the thought of drafting him at #4.
However, if you are looking for a guy with versatility and that brings speed, a high football IQ and production to a defense that last year had little of those, he is a good fit for this team.
correct and that is the job of our highly talented run stuffing interior DL to control the run game.
It will be Simmons job to try and slow down Kittle which very little people can do because of his size and speed. Simmons would be one of them.
Joe Burrow stated that LSU had to change its entire game plan to deal with Simmons affect in the game.
Remember the game before Clemson, Burrow threw for 400 yds abd 7 TD in a half!
So Id say Simmons did a pretty good job for 1 guy.
and how many "safeties" get 7 sacks with also 30 pressures on about 70 pass rushes
the point is he can play more of a safety role vs run heavy teams and he can play linebacker and edge rusher/blitzer vs pass heavy teams.
His versatility makes him so valuable.
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The guy made 21 plays last year behind the line of scrimmage
14 TFLs and 7 sacks.
The idea that he is just a chaser down the field and avoids contact and can’t be played up front does not match the facts,
You def have not seen one game tape. Please do yourself a favor and show me a player where he wasn’t schemed open and actually made a play on the ball in the backfield. Your going to find one clip where he bulldozes a back who has literally the worst blocking technique I’ve ever seen. Good luck doing that to AP, zeke or saquon. He’ll end like Keith rivers vs Hines ward
Oh nonsense, he was just "schemed open". If its do easy why didnt every team just "scheme open" a guy to get 100+ tackles, 14 TFLs, 7 sacks etc?
The answer is Simmons has a unique skill set that allows the scheme to be developed to get him open
Quote:
The guy made 21 plays last year behind the line of scrimmage
14 TFLs and 7 sacks.
The idea that he is just a chaser down the field and avoids contact and can’t be played up front does not match the facts,
You def have not seen one game tape. Please do yourself a favor and show me a player where he wasn’t schemed open and actually made a play on the ball in the backfield. Your going to find one clip where he bulldozes a back who has literally the worst blocking technique I’ve ever seen. Good luck doing that to AP, zeke or saquon. He’ll end like Keith rivers vs Hines ward
Oh nonsense, he was just "schemed open". If its do easy why didnt every team just "scheme open" a guy to get 100+ tackles, 14 TFLs, 7 sacks etc?
The answer is Simmons has a unique skill set that allows the scheme to be developed to get him open
Someone watched his tapes against Charlotte and Wofford and thought he was invisible?? Well guess what that must mean? That he tore it up against the better schools and top-flight competition.
You can argue he shouldn't be the pick for us without making it seem like he's a bad player. He's likely going to have a very good NFL career.
"Guy's got to bite," Venables said, "and if he doesn't bite when he's a puppy, he won't when he's grown up."
Venables has tried to force the issue before. For all the new-age platitudes lauded upon Simmons this year, the hybrid linebacker position isn't new for Clemson. It was just a few years ago that Venables pushed Jayron Kearse to make a similar move from safety into the box, but Kearse wouldn't do it. Linebackers are grunts. Defensive backs have style. Kearse was a DB; or that's at least what Venables called him, regardless of how he actually was used.
Simmons is a different case.
Good for you. We'll see how well you processed the information you saw next year.
Good for you. We'll see how well you processed the information you saw next year.
You could mock me all you want. At least I watched as much film as I could to form my own opinion and I stand by it. I actually cited example. All I hear from the pro simmons guys is a scouting report they found on Walter football. You got time, go watch some full games. Educate yourself
Simmons' upside in the NFL is literally off the charts. You aren't drafting him to be what he was at Clemson.
Simmons' upside in the NFL is literally off the charts. You aren't drafting him to be what he was at Clemson.
So what are we drafting him to be? He was a system guy at Clemson. Out of nowhere he can do other things against pros? The only way he is worth the 4 pick is if he magically turns into Sean Taylor.
It’s not set in stone that The Lions are going Odukah or making a trade
They might take Simmons
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That everybody just assumes he’s even going to be available to the Giants
It’s not set in stone that The Lions are going Odukah or making a trade
They might take Simmons
. Read this myself, then we will take Okudah or trade down. Seems simple if you want the value for that top 4 pick. None of the others do, they are flawed reach need picks like Pugh and Flowers. DG wants value there I am sure.
Please explain in detail exactly how Jedrick Wills is a "flawed reach" comparable to Justin Pugh and Ereck Flowers.
Thanks in advance.
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Full tape.
Good for you. We'll see how well you processed the information you saw next year.
You could mock me all you want. At least I watched as much film as I could to form my own opinion and I stand by it. I actually cited example. All I hear from the pro simmons guys is a scouting report they found on Walter football. You got time, go watch some full games. Educate yourself
Great. So you watched tape and are now an expert?? I saw Daniel Jones play games and I thought he'd be a terrible NFL QB. I cited examples of where he struggled. If it were as easy to watch tape, any fucking schlub can get a TV and be a draft expert.
If you watch tape and come away with the impression Simmons doesn't like contact - I don't know what to fucking tell you.
Well, I actually do know what to tell you - but you aren't too accepting of it....
Closer to 240, but Peppers basically is playing LB at 205, as was Collins at 215.
Yes he is lanky. But his legs look pretty stout, which is were the power comes from.
Wasn't Leonard Floyd an ER/OLB for the Bears at 235 lbs and he was actually thinner than Simmons?
It’s not set in stone that The Lions are going Odukah or making a trade
They might take Simmons
Lions' free agency moves do not fit a plan for Simmons.
He won't go top 3.
usatoday - ( New Window )
He could play nickel LB in coverage and occassionally blitz as well.
But he isn't a WLB or MLB by any means.
Simmons is 6’4. 230. Obviously Chancellor was a collision expert but shows someone that size can play safety at extremely high level. And you still have the ability to use him as a pass rusher. I think he’s a safety-plus. A team may lower his ceiling by insisting that he play linebacker
Buried in a Nate Ebner quote, Bill Belichick said this
“at a position that he plays right in the middle of the field, which is among the most difficult – inside linebacker and safety – where the number of things that can happen is the greatest."
The number of things that can happen is the greatest, maybe the ILB/FS is severely misundervalued one?
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it's the slim hips and skinny legs he has that you never see on an NFL LB. Easier to get injured and not be able to withstand the rigors of the NFL game. So, the 6'4 238 is a bit misleading because he's 6'4. He could be the new breed of speed, he could be a cog in the future NYG defense, I just don't want to invest the #4 overall pick in a hybrid FS/ILB at this point in time.
Buried in a Nate Ebner quote, Bill Belichick said this
“at a position that he plays right in the middle of the field, which is among the most difficult – inside linebacker and safety – where the number of things that can happen is the greatest."
The number of things that can happen is the greatest, maybe the ILB/FS is severely misundervalued one?
When Belicheck spends a #4 overall pick in there, I'll listen.
Also, he's good against the run.
Telvin Smith who was so critical on that great Jacksonville defense that should've beat the Patriots in the playoffs if not for a blown down by contact call on a fumble recovery that would've been a scoop and score.
Why are/were these guys so successful? Great linebackers! Both are smaller than Simmons.
Von Miller...combine weight 8 lbs bigger than Simmons, one of the fiercest pass rushers in our game and will be a HOFer.
Simmons is a instinctual, intelligent, player with rare, rare, rare physical gifts. I can see him on the edge with the QB not knowing if he's going to blow past his RT or run with his TE or spy or drop into zone coverage. And he can do all of that very well, which makes him a dangerous weapon on the defense.
His tape isn't perfect. He can clean things up. But that's what you have your NFL coaches for. And he has the ability and intelligence to soak all that up and be a better player than he was in college.
He's 21 years old with his best football I'm front of him. Our defense has NFL top 5 potential if he is what I think he is, which is an offensive game plan wrecker and complete mismatch wherever you put him.
You guys are worried about Guards blocking him out of plays...well first you have to get your hands on him, and he's going to beat those guys more often than not because of his speed and quickness. He's too damn fast for these guys.
If we're at 4 and he's on the board, unless I can move down and get extra picks, he's my guy.
Also, he's good against the run.
Telvin Smith who was so critical on that great Jacksonville defense that should've beat the Patriots in the playoffs if not for a blown down by contact call on a fumble recovery that would've been a scoop and score.
Why are/were these guys so successful? Great linebackers! Both are smaller than Simmons.
Von Miller...combine weight 8 lbs bigger than Simmons, one of the fiercest pass rushers in our game and will be a HOFer.
Simmons is a instinctual, intelligent, player with rare, rare, rare physical gifts. I can see him on the edge with the QB not knowing if he's going to blow past his RT or run with his TE or spy or drop into zone coverage. And he can do all of that very well, which makes him a dangerous weapon on the defense.
His tape isn't perfect. He can clean things up. But that's what you have your NFL coaches for. And he has the ability and intelligence to soak all that up and be a better player than he was in college.
He's 21 years old with his best football I'm front of him. Our defense has NFL top 5 potential if he is what I think he is, which is an offensive game plan wrecker and complete mismatch wherever you put him.
You guys are worried about Guards blocking him out of plays...well first you have to get your hands on him, and he's going to beat those guys more often than not because of his speed and quickness. He's too damn fast for these guys.
If we're at 4 and he's on the board, unless I can move down and get extra picks, he's my guy.
Jaylon Smith 6 foot 2 240. 2 inches shorter and 2 lbs heavier. Also jaylon always played linebacker. Besides being stockier it’s a mentality.
It wasn’t telvin Smith it was Myles jack.
Von Miller. 6 foot 3 250. 1 inch shorter 12 lbs heavier.
These comparisons are forced and are ridiculous. Your comparing a converted safety to a hybrid linebacker to a guy in jaylon who played the position his whole life and if not for blowing out his knee was a top 10 lock at the linebacker position. Comparing von Miller to Simmons!!! Holy shit. Von Miller has heavy hands is fast as hell and has much more flexibility in his bend and dip then Simmons could dream about not to mention he’s shorter and 12 lbs heavier. Look at their lower bodies. Stop focusing on his weight. Look at his frame and size and tell me if that will hold up rushing vs NFL tackles. He doesn’t have the base to hold up anywhere near the LOS
Like many others on this board, I'm just a passionate fan who wants to see things with my own eyes. There are a ton of lazy analysts and talking heads out there spouting bullshit about players. I have tremendous respect for the professionals that are actually very serious about their craft and really take the time to study the players like Sy56. The work he does to inform and educate us is invaluable.
1. People saying Simmons plays and feels more natural at safety are right. Its clear he's still feeling his way at the position and the vibe that he's sometimes going through the motions or not playing as aggressively may be a product of this. Didn't realize he's literally only taken reps as a linebacker for two seasons at Clemson. He played wr and free safety in high school. His progression to becoming one of the best college players in the country is much more impressive in this context. After seeing a larger number of his reps I realized that when he was confident about what was in front of him you started seeing some of those alpha traits emerge.
2. My opinion that Simmons hates contact was overstated in my OP and I retract some of what I felt earlier. Clemson has an extremely physical defense, one of the most physical in the country. Simmons was surrounded by playmakers that thrive on physical aggression like James Skalski, and K'von Wallace. He's not them, but his inability to fill a gap with the hair on fire approach of a Skalski was as much a product of learning to trust his instincts while reading and diagnosing things close to the line of scrimmage as a lack of desire to get dirty.
3. His physical limitations - This has been way overstated. Yeah he's tall and skinny but the guy is very big and plenty strong for a modern outside linebacker with a lot of room to grow. When he did take on full grown man size tackles and guards he was getting turned but he wasn't getting smashed. Like many have pointed out his skinny legs aren't gonna win any powerlifting championships, but he is by no means a weakling who just tucks and runs at the first sign of an oncoming blocker. What you see is a total lack of experience where he struggles to use his hands to effectively disengage from blockers at the attack point or fails to keep his eyes upfield when wading through trash. LSU game exposed his struggles on the biggest stage but this was going on all season. He'd let blockers get their hands into his body and turn him or he'd turn his head and shoulders into the blocker while attacking a side, taking himself completely out the play before it even got to him. The same lack of experience showed up when he was asked to bring pressure off the edge. He had no effective plan most of the time except to out athlete his blocker, but you started to see a viable dip and rip move emerging through the course of the season. If he could learn how to set up blockers better with his speed move and finish with an effective counter like an inside spin he could become a devastating situational pass rusher off the edge even if he's not the bendiest athlete in the world.
3. Clemson loved using him at free safety and manning the slot. He's most at home playing the deep safety role where he can comfortably see everything in front of him and run and chase the action. They'd line him up in zone schemes across from the slot receiver a lot. In the Ohio State game he was used mostly at free safety which was really frustrating to watch for someone hoping to see linebacker reps, but showed how much Venables trusted him manning the back end. It worked since he was part of a unit that effectively neutralized Ohio State's vertical attack and forced Fields to work underneath where he struggled. Simmons isn't quick footed enough to play man to man on quick twitch athletes like scat backs and slot receivers, but he's perfectly built to eliminate tight ends, and he has the recover speed to handle wideouts in zones.
4. He'll be an extremely effective weapon against the new breed of dual threat option QBs taking over the league like Lamar Jackson and Kyler Murray. Clemson used him a lot as a spy. He had arguably his best game against Louisville who had two speed QB's and ran option all game. On one these designed plays Simmons shocked Cunningham in the backfield he closed on him so fast.
5. LSU game showed he can be a really good linebacker but he's also a major work in progress who'll need time to develop. This game was like a game of two halves. In the first half up until the final drive, he showed the confidence and instincts of somebody making plays and not overthinking things. He played like an absolute stud. In the final drive of first half and a lot of the second half he looked more unsure of himself and seemed confused by some of what LSU was throwing at him. In fairness LSU runs some of the most complex blocking schemes in the country. The traps they were setting up at the line of scrimmage were more in line with what Simmons will have to face week in and week out in the NFL.
6. In conclusion I've circled around and think Simmons could turn out to be a really good pick at 4 if the Giants are patient. His game screams classic Ron Rivera or Pete Carroll pick who becomes an all pro in their system in a few years.
He fills a lot of boxes in the new more play action, spread oriented modern NFL but shouldn't be expected to be a superstar right out of the gate. The Giants defense is desperate for playmakers but he's not Chase Young or Zach Baun who have the highly developed skill sets to jump into a starting front seven and ball out on day one. He'll need a coaching staff that brings him on slowly enough to tap his potential without overwhelming him. His floor is higher as a safety in the NFL but his ceiling is higher as a linebacker. If Patrick Graham and his coaching staff develop him the right way he could go from a situational movable chess piece with plus coverage skills to one of the best linebackers in the league in three or four years. he'll be the ultimate litmus test of a coaching staff's ability to teach and motivate since the potential is sky high.
of course we may all eat our words here
but i don't think he's worthy of a top 5, if even 10.
looks like a tweener who'll be eaten up by run game.
a very high ceiling project.
most importantly is he an athlete or a football player?
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Is a form of block shedding.
Laughable. Go watch his full game tapes vs charlotte and wofford. 2 terrible football schools and Simmons was truly invisible. Why? Both teams ran run heavy offenses and Simmons spent the game on the turf. Running past blockers also means your running away from your run lane. Part of run defense is filling the gap and stacking.
He was invisible? I saw him make a tremendous INT vs Wofford. I think he only played one half of football in that game. I haven't found video of that full game tape or vs Charlotte. Where are you watching it? If you have a link or resource to share I'd appreciate it.
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Plays linebacker, pretty good at it, too.
Also, he's good against the run.
Telvin Smith who was so critical on that great Jacksonville defense that should've beat the Patriots in the playoffs if not for a blown down by contact call on a fumble recovery that would've been a scoop and score.
Why are/were these guys so successful? Great linebackers! Both are smaller than Simmons.
Von Miller...combine weight 8 lbs bigger than Simmons, one of the fiercest pass rushers in our game and will be a HOFer.
Simmons is a instinctual, intelligent, player with rare, rare, rare physical gifts. I can see him on the edge with the QB not knowing if he's going to blow past his RT or run with his TE or spy or drop into zone coverage. And he can do all of that very well, which makes him a dangerous weapon on the defense.
His tape isn't perfect. He can clean things up. But that's what you have your NFL coaches for. And he has the ability and intelligence to soak all that up and be a better player than he was in college.
He's 21 years old with his best football I'm front of him. Our defense has NFL top 5 potential if he is what I think he is, which is an offensive game plan wrecker and complete mismatch wherever you put him.
You guys are worried about Guards blocking him out of plays...well first you have to get your hands on him, and he's going to beat those guys more often than not because of his speed and quickness. He's too damn fast for these guys.
If we're at 4 and he's on the board, unless I can move down and get extra picks, he's my guy.
Jaylon Smith 6 foot 2 240. 2 inches shorter and 2 lbs heavier. Also jaylon always played linebacker. Besides being stockier it’s a mentality.
It wasn’t telvin Smith it was Myles jack.
Von Miller. 6 foot 3 250. 1 inch shorter 12 lbs heavier.
These comparisons are forced and are ridiculous. Your comparing a converted safety to a hybrid linebacker to a guy in jaylon who played the position his whole life and if not for blowing out his knee was a top 10 lock at the linebacker position. Comparing von Miller to Simmons!!! Holy shit. Von Miller has heavy hands is fast as hell and has much more flexibility in his bend and dip then Simmons could dream about not to mention he’s shorter and 12 lbs heavier. Look at their lower bodies. Stop focusing on his weight. Look at his frame and size and tell me if that will hold up rushing vs NFL tackles. He doesn’t have the base to hold up anywhere near the LOS
First of all, I said Telvin Smith and meant Telvin Smith. Anyone who knew that 2017 team knew that Telvin Smith was a huge part of that defense. He made the Pro Bowl that year, racked up over 100 tackles in just 14 games, had a few interceptions, a couple of forced fumbles, and was very good as a coverage linebacker. And his listed height/weight he played at was 6'3" 215 lbs.
Secondly, if we are comparing apples to apples, which is what I was doing, I am comparing their combine measurables, not after they've been in an NFL program for several years. Simmons is 238 lbs right now. Jaylon Smith weighed in at the combine at 6'2", 223 lbs.
So, if you are saying that Jaylon Smith was able to be as fast as he was in college and put on an additional 22 lbs in the NFL (his listed weight is 245 lbs today), then I feel pretty good that Simmons can add another 7 or 8. This is not a small guy, he has enough right now, and he will get more weight on...it just will happen because he's still growing in to that frame at only 21 years old.