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Simmons is Very Frustrating to Watch

HugeS : 4/1/2020 11:40 pm
Theres no question he's a really special athlete, probably in the top 99.9 percentile for all linebackers that ever played in the NFL. His cover skills are already to a level where he could realistically be the best coverage linebacker in the NFL from day one. In space he's an absolute playmaker. The problem is like others have pointed out, the guy hates contact. He plays timid when negotiating blockers or taking on gap responsibilities. If you sit down and watch the All 22, just count how many business decisions he makes per game. He's clearly very smart, his read and diagnose is good, he's fluid in space, and he covers like a demon, but the dude will literally do anything he can to avoid mixing it up and getting his jersey dirty. Its actually maddening to think how special he could be if he had more of a Patrick Willis mentality. Unfortunately thats what he is right now, a lightning fast coverage guy so talented he can handle the deep middle or the slot but who is lets just politely say a bit risk averse when it comes to dealing with any action around the line of scrimmage. I really want to like Simmons at 4 but I'm just not sure. Do you guys think this one dimension to his game is too rare to pass up? Could this coaching staff get him to trust his instincts more and play more aggressively around the line of scrimmage?
Could it be that he's this year's version of. ....  
Manny in CA : 4/1/2020 11:49 pm : link

Ramses Barden; amazing athlete that is capable of incredible physical feats, BUT it's just not in him to mix-it-up ...

In other words, he could be s world-class tennis or golf player.
I think one of the issues is  
eric2425ny : 4/1/2020 11:52 pm : link
that we are a fan base accustomed to the best linebacker play in NFL history for those that have been Giants fans for long enough. I mean LT played with a separated shoulder. On another occasion he literally beat the Lions on his own back in the day, a game he was questionable to play in due to injury no less. Can you imagine that happening in today’s NFL? Simmons is a unique player that can be placed in a variety of positions and can excel. It’s a much different game than it used to be. More about speed and versatility than strength and nastiness. And Taylor had the speed, versatility, strength, and nastiness for the record. Best player of all time. I think Simmons will be a player, but don’t expect that nasty streak past players have exemplified. I don’t think you will see that too much in the future from many players.
A linebacker who avoids contact.  
Mr. Bungle : 4/1/2020 11:54 pm : link
And people want him at #4?!
I am praying  
LeonBright45 : 4/1/2020 11:56 pm : link
...for the Redskins to pick him at #2

We could run right over Simmons couple of times with our Tight Ends blocking him easily and then run play action and just watch him bite. Jones over the top to Engram, TD Giants!!

Simmons is not someone the offense fears. His lack of physicality will only be more apparent in the NFL. I don't want him. If the Giants pick him I will root for him to be lined up as our Free Safety with Peppers at SS.
RE: I think one of the issues is  
Rjanyg : 4/1/2020 11:57 pm : link
In comment 14856867 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
that we are a fan base accustomed to the best linebacker play in NFL history for those that have been Giants fans for long enough. I mean LT played with a separated shoulder. On another occasion he literally beat the Lions on his own back in the day, a game he was questionable to play in due to injury no less. Can you imagine that happening in today’s NFL? Simmons is a unique player that can be placed in a variety of positions and can excel. It’s a much different game than it used to be. More about speed and versatility than strength and nastiness. And Taylor had the speed, versatility, strength, and nastiness for the record. Best player of all time. I think Simmons will be a player, but don’t expect that nasty streak past players have exemplified. I don’t think you will see that too much in the future from many players.


Total truth. I do think Simmons is both worth the 4th pick and will be a great pro, but he won’t be LT. Nobody will be.

Sean Taylor was more LB  
LeonBright45 : 4/2/2020 12:02 am : link
than Simmons will ever be and even he was considered to be a Safety.

Simmons is no Sean Taylor
If  
AdamBrag : 4/2/2020 12:16 am : link
Simmons is being used as a north-south linebacker in the NFL, he's being used wrong.

His two best traits are coverage and his sideline to sideline tackling ability. Both of those are extremely valuable traits in the NFL.
That is why  
LeonBright45 : 4/2/2020 12:33 am : link
many consider him to be a classic Strong Safety in the mold of a Sean Taylor, David Fultcher, Steve Atwater, kind of player who has the length to cover Tight Ends and the speed to cover half the field in zone coverage all while being able to generate enough speed and force to knock the snot out of somebody.

If he can't fight off a block to make a tackle as an ILB, and he would get crushed trying to set the edge as an OLB, he is a Safety in the NFL. I'm sure that he can play "coverage LB" on passing plays, but he is what I consider to be a back seven player, not a front seven player.

The best Safeties were a little bit crazy. Simmons is a very tame, play it safe kind of player. Might make a good pro, but I see nothing that leads me to believe that he can elevate a Defense and intimidate an Offense.
who gives a damn if he can't fill the gap and take on the running back  
Giantsfan79 : 4/2/2020 1:00 am : link
isn't that what Blake Martinez, David Mayo & hopefully Ryan Connelly are good at?

which of our linebackers do you currently trust to run with tight ends/running backs or play in that soft part of the zone in the middle of the field where we've been burned so many damned times over the years?
Sorry if I hit a nerve  
LeonBright45 : 4/2/2020 1:40 am : link


I guess you believe that Simmons will be instructed to just hang back; let the real linebackers take on the guard, fill the hole, and make the tackle.
The first Giants team i truly remember was 00 and 01  
Sonic Youth : 4/2/2020 1:47 am : link
Since that time, I rarely remember the Giants having an LB who could cover TEs or RBs out of the backfield. Who was the best at that coverage? Michael Boley?

I definitely remember getting killed by Westbrook, Witten, etc in the middle of the field.

If I had to guess, I think Simmons would be a very valuable asset in todays league.
Leon  
cosmicj : 4/2/2020 1:48 am : link
I’m with you. There’s a lot of hand waving by the Simmons pick supporters about his position. Judge may have used the word “multiple” but the Patriots have defined positions in their defense. We already made a significant investment into Simmons’ most likely position (Peppers). So this would be duplicating a player on a talent starved team.

I am waiting for Sy’s LB review with a lot of curiosity. I expect him to rate Simmons very highly as an LB. That should prompt some good discussion.
"timid when negotiating blockers or taking on gap responsibilities"  
Torrag : 4/2/2020 1:55 am : link
It's why he isn't in the Chase Young category but instead in the next group with Jeudy/Okudah/Wills/Lamb/Becton/Wirfs.

They all have something about their game, AA or physique you'd like to improve. Nevertheless they are really good players. The Reddest of red chips prospects.
RE:  
section125 : 4/2/2020 3:16 am : link
In comment 14856892 Torrag said:
Quote:
It's why he isn't in the Chase Young category but instead in the next group with Jeudy/Okudah/Wills/Lamb/Becton/Wirfs.

They all have something about their game, AA or physique you'd like to improve. Nevertheless they are really good players. The Reddest of red chips prospects.


Except for the people who think he is above Young...
I think Simmons likes to fly  
Rolyrock : 4/2/2020 3:57 am : link
Right around people and make plays.
The only contact is the tackle.
'Except for the people who think he is above Young...'  
Torrag : 4/2/2020 4:17 am : link
Yeah, because there are three of you. Hahaha.
“Business decision” is a harsh accusation  
flycatcher : 4/2/2020 5:05 am : link
Can anyone link a video showing Simmons avoiding contact? Not disputing the OP, just curious.
I’ve been saying this forever  
Tuckrule : 4/2/2020 5:08 am : link
He’s an athlete not a football players. Wide hashes in college allowed him much more space and freedom to roam. In the nfl it’s much tighter and the athletes are the best of the best and most are physical and have that mentality. Simmons lacks toughness. You can’t teach that. Good luck when he goes to tackle Zeke. He’ll run him right over along with many of the tight ends in this league. Simmons is lean. I don’t care if he’s 238. Look at his body. Small hips slender frame. He will struggle at the next level. I don’t see a top 10 pick but I’m in the minority. Again, he’s Taylor mays in my eyes.
I've said it before and will say it again here  
BlueLou'sBack : 4/2/2020 5:09 am : link
It would be a huge mistake to draft Simmons as an LB. If you think he's worth #4 overall to be your starting FS, so be it, go for it, maybe he's the next Ronnie Lott or Earl Thomas or Ed Reed.

Brian Urlacher he ain't, and he's not likely to become that.

I don't think players "grow into" liking contact or relishing the physical nature of the game. Bryan Kehl part II, just faster, twitchier.
I think he gets caught in the wash....  
George from PA : 4/2/2020 5:16 am : link
Avoid contact or implying he is afraid, business decision is a bit harsh....

I just think he has a hard time disengaging from blockers.....which is a major concern.

And

Why I prefer him after a trade down
RE: If  
jeff57 : 4/2/2020 5:32 am : link
In comment 14856875 AdamBrag said:
Quote:
Simmons is being used as a north-south linebacker in the NFL, he's being used wrong.

His two best traits are coverage and his sideline to sideline tackling ability. Both of those are extremely valuable traits in the NFL.


Then he should be a FS
I’ll take  
Big Blue '56 : 4/2/2020 6:47 am : link
my chances. It would be nice for QBs to think, “where the fuck is this guy attacking from?”
just  
dslayton86 : 4/2/2020 6:49 am : link
curious. How come a draft report such as this one doesn't mention anything about his lack of toughness? I don't know either way and wouldn't mind a clip like someone requested above that shows some of his softness.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/isaiah-simmons/y6TJzAJbpC
I don’t see any hesitation around making tackles.  
Giant John : 4/2/2020 6:57 am : link
Giants will evaluate him. I do see crazy speed to the tackle. I do see a ball hawk.
RE: just  
OdellLovesOBJ : 4/2/2020 7:06 am : link
In comment 14856925 dslayton86 said:
Quote:
curious. How come a draft report such as this one doesn't mention anything about his lack of toughness? I don't know either way and wouldn't mind a clip like someone requested above that shows some of his softness.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/isaiah-simmons/y6TJzAJbpC


Great question. Here's a few pieces every one who's not sure about Isaiah Simmons being the absolute choice for the Giants at #4 should review. His improvement in his 2nd year as a LB is evident.

Riddick is on point with his assessment..... "ESPN's Louis Riddick says he has a feeling there will be a change in management by season's end if the Giants don't pick Simmons.

"This guy fits everything they absolutely need on the defensive side," Riddick said. "They do not have pass rushers. They don't have linebackers who can run and cover like him. And they have no one in the secondary who can come close to matching his overall physical ability can be. He can play two-to-three positions in the secondary and all three linebacker positions and he can rush the passer if you needed him too -- although that's not really what his forte is.



Read more: https://www.tigernet.com/update/ESPN-analysts-break-down-Isaiah-Simmons-as-top-4-NFL-draft-pick-35254#ixzz6IS68MRt6

2019:
https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/athletic-freak-and-swiss-army-knife--isaiah-simmons

2020:
https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/isaiah-simmons/y6TJzAJbpC


ESPN Commentary
https://www.tigernet.com/update/ESPN-analysts-break-down-Isaiah-Simmons-as-top-4-NFL-draft-pick-35254?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TigernetClemsonUpdates+%28TigerNet.com+-+Clemson+Tiger+Updates%29
He played at  
mdthedream : 4/2/2020 7:59 am : link
230lbs not a surprise he is a little afraid of contact. Guys are all bigger than him. RBs are as big as he is. Getting hit at that size over and over will be a issue for injuries. That said he is a great prospect with more weight if he doesn't lose speed would be the solution. It is just hard to draft a guy at 4 no matter who he is. You most get it right or its a big mistake.
I don't agree with the thesis.  
allstarjim : 4/2/2020 8:16 am : link
What I will say is he got away from a lot of over-pursuit at Clemson because he was so damn athletic he just could recover and get the tackle anyway. However, that athleticism/speed gap narrows in the NFL.

I think he's a terrific blitzer, and you can employ him as a QB spy which is really helpful in some games. Remember the Arizona Cardinals game last year and what Kyler Murray did to us?

I think people focus on the coverage ability so much, and that's fine, but he's really a multi-dimensional defensive weapon.

I actually think I might like him more than Chase Young.
RE: RE: I think one of the issues is  
Jay in Toronto : 4/2/2020 8:16 am : link
In comment 14856870 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
In comment 14856867 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


that we are a fan base accustomed to the best linebacker play in NFL history for those that have been Giants fans for long enough. I mean LT played with a separated shoulder. On another occasion he literally beat the Lions on his own back in the day, a game he was questionable to play in due to injury no less. Can you imagine that happening in today’s NFL? Simmons is a unique player that can be placed in a variety of positions and can excel. It’s a much different game than it used to be. More about speed and versatility than strength and nastiness. And Taylor had the speed, versatility, strength, and nastiness for the record. Best player of all time. I think Simmons will be a player, but don’t expect that nasty streak past players have exemplified. I don’t think you will see that too much in the future from many players.



Total truth. I do think Simmons is both worth the 4th pick and will be a great pro, but he won’t be LT. Nobody will be.


As I speculated/asked in another thread - he may not be another LT in ferocity, guts etc, but could he be another LT in shifting a position's paradigm?
Coverage  
UGADawgs7 : 4/2/2020 8:18 am : link
His coverage really is not that impressive, and really have a bad feeling if a RB like Barkley, McCaffrey ran into him in the open field he’d get burned and Dobbins 68 yard TD Simmons looked like he misread it. Misreads happen but also LSU, Burrow escaped Simmons rushes several times. That’s really not a 4th overall pick imo. Granted nitpicking and every player has bad games, but against the only 2 good teams Clemson faced he didn’t play well.
RE: He played at  
allstarjim : 4/2/2020 8:19 am : link
In comment 14856960 mdthedream said:
Quote:
230lbs not a surprise he is a little afraid of contact. Guys are all bigger than him. RBs are as big as he is. Getting hit at that size over and over will be a issue for injuries. That said he is a great prospect with more weight if he doesn't lose speed would be the solution. It is just hard to draft a guy at 4 no matter who he is. You most get it right or its a big mistake.


Combine weight was 238. Or 15 lbs heavier than Jaylon Smith weighed at the combine. He'll probably play at 240 lbs.
"Tell me what he can do, dont tell me what he cant do"  
twostepgiants : 4/2/2020 8:19 am : link
- Judge

You just said the guy is one of the 99.9% physically gifted players to ever enter in NFL and already the best cover LB in league

But

He had 104 tackles, 14 TAckles for Loss and 7 sacks

It seems like he hit alot of people for a guy who likes to avoid contact.
RE: I’ve been saying this forever  
Victor in CT : 4/2/2020 8:29 am : link
In comment 14856911 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
He’s an athlete not a football players. Wide hashes in college allowed him much more space and freedom to roam. In the nfl it’s much tighter and the athletes are the best of the best and most are physical and have that mentality. Simmons lacks toughness. You can’t teach that. Good luck when he goes to tackle Zeke. He’ll run him right over along with many of the tight ends in this league. Simmons is lean. I don’t care if he’s 238. Look at his body. Small hips slender frame. He will struggle at the next level. I don’t see a top 10 pick but I’m in the minority. Again, he’s Taylor mays in my eyes.


BINGO!!! Great athlete does not necessarily = Great Football Player. ANd as JonC has pointed out, Simmons is a chaser. Chasers arent inpact palyers in the NFL.
I’m repeating myself from yesterday but ...  
Spider56 : 4/2/2020 8:29 am : link
Venables is an outstanding DC and exploits opponents weaknesses. His game plans may have called for Simmons to ‘stay clean’ and be available to make plays all over but in counterpoint, the ACC was subpar on talent last year ... aside from Clemson players, there may not be anyone else from the ACC drafted before day 3.
Judge wants to be multiple  
US1 Giants : 4/2/2020 8:31 am : link
Simmmons seems like a perfect match for defensive scheme that changes week to week depending upon the opponent.
Looks like Tarzan -  
Diver_Down : 4/2/2020 8:39 am : link
Plays like Jane.
Well the OP s observation is a game changer  
joeinpa : 4/2/2020 8:44 am : link
If indeed the OP S conclusion is shared by those who evaluate these talents for a living
RE: just  
BlueLou'sBack : 4/2/2020 8:51 am : link
In comment 14856925 dslayton86 said:
Quote:
curious. How come a draft report such as this one doesn't mention anything about his lack of toughness? I don't know either way and wouldn't mind a clip like someone requested above that shows some of his softness.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/isaiah-simmons/y6TJzAJbpC


Because that outfit - draftnetwork - is utter garbage. Bunch of internet savvy youngstas without 15 mins of professional scouting experience among the whole lot of them.

Look up the various members' credentials: bright kids, internet savvy, love football. Nothing else.
Again, to put actual facts  
twostepgiants : 4/2/2020 8:51 am : link
The guy made 21 plays last year behind the line of scrimmage

14 TFLs and 7 sacks.

The idea that he is just a chaser down the field and avoids contact and can’t be played up front does not match the facts,
Back it up  
aGiantGuy : 4/2/2020 8:53 am : link
Why don’t you post a game, and chart all these instances of business decision on the All 22, so we can verify what you’re talking about.

Otherwise we’re just going to think you don’t like the guy
RE: Judge wants to be multiple  
BlueLou'sBack : 4/2/2020 8:55 am : link
In comment 14856990 US1 Giants said:
Quote:
Simmmons seems like a perfect match for defensive scheme that changes week to week depending upon the opponent.


Everyone who likes Simmons refers to Judge's statements regarding multiplicity.

They seem to have glanced over the statements Judge made about playing historic NY Giants football again, his statements about being physical and hard nosed.

IIRC, Judge emphasized physical play
more than once before he mentioned "multiple."
I'll defend Simmons more  
allstarjim : 4/2/2020 8:57 am : link
I think people overrate his coverage ability and underrate his block shed and ability to get to the ball carrier in the box.

Coverage-wise, he's really good in zone as you might expect for someone of his speed, smarts, and instincts. And he has all three in abundance.

But in man coverage he can get beat with good route running (not up the seam, though, he'd have to pull a hammy to get beat up the seam).

I really, really want an OT, but Simmons is the one guy I would probably take over the OT. He will change a defense.
RE: Again, to put actual facts  
cosmicj : 4/2/2020 8:58 am : link
In comment 14857013 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
The guy made 21 plays last year behind the line of scrimmage

14 TFLs and 7 sacks.

The idea that he is just a chaser down the field and avoids contact and can’t be played up front does not match the facts,
View the link. I don’t see the pass rush ability.
Every IS sack, INT, TFL 2019 - ( New Window )
Lou -  
Diver_Down : 4/2/2020 8:59 am : link
This is BBI and you have been here long enough to know that people will cherrypick comments to frame/support their argument.
some of the observations about things the Giants  
gidiefor : Mod : 4/2/2020 9:06 am : link
haven't been able to do since LT wasn't on the team and regarding LB coverage of running backs and TE just doesn't strike me as being made into a greater issue than it was or is.

You would think that the Giants haven't won a Super Bowl since 1991.

Or have they. How could they have ever done that without covering running backs or TE's?
Think bigger than a traditional role  
aGiantGuy : 4/2/2020 9:08 am : link
If the Giants did draft him, I don’t think it’ll be because they think he will be Von Miller or Khalil Mack.

There are many reasons they could draft him, the most important are allowing the defense the ability to not substitute out of the base defense, freeing up Peppers to not be the only guy who can cover a TE, shutting down all qb spy, qb zone read, and bootleg action. You can disguise who is coming on a blitz better if there are more players that can cover on the field.

These are some of the schematic advantages
RE: I don’t see any hesitation around making tackles.  
Bruner4329 : 4/2/2020 9:12 am : link
In comment 14856926 Giant John said:
Quote:
Giants will evaluate him. I do see crazy speed to the tackle. I do see a ball hawk.


It has been so long since we had legitimate LBs on this team most people on this Board have forgotten what it means. All we have had are slow plodding players. This guy has a gear we have not seen for a while. He is no LT but no one is.

LT  
PaulN : 4/2/2020 9:13 am : link
And I watched his entire career, every play, was an all out attacking player who was fast, big, and strong, if you used him to to drop back into coverage you were misusing him, he dropped back into coverage at times to cross up the other team and he was so smart and talented, he would make a play, plus he just did things on his own he was so good. This player would be a coverage guy who also attack the QB, can we fit a guy on the team that could have 5 int's and 7 sacks? No lets take a tackle that may not beat out the guys we have, all things fair and equal. LT also had a non stop motor with off the chart intellegence and heart. We all don't know what is inside these guys, watch LT play for dumb ass Rod Rust, a coach can ruin a players spirit. I hope we now have the coach that will coach to a players stregnth.
RE: RE: Again, to put actual facts  
section125 : 4/2/2020 9:20 am : link
In comment 14857025 cosmicj said:
Quote:
In comment 14857013 twostepgiants said:


Quote:


The guy made 21 plays last year behind the line of scrimmage

14 TFLs and 7 sacks.

The idea that he is just a chaser down the field and avoids contact and can’t be played up front does not match the facts,

View the link. I don’t see the pass rush ability. Every IS sack, INT, TFL 2019 - ( New Window )


He is not a stand at the line of scrimmage ER. He is an attack from mid level LB.
Shurmur  
PaulN : 4/2/2020 9:26 am : link
Could not get Barkley the ball in space, he ran him off tackle on 1 leg, this entire team gets a pass, lets see what happens when they bring a blocking tight end to help out the tackles a little, fucking moron coach.
The Giants have struggled on Defense now for years  
LBH15 : 4/2/2020 9:28 am : link
for many reasons. And it's not exaggerating at all to say covering the Tight End adequately is near the top of that list.
Simmons  
PaulN : 4/2/2020 9:35 am : link
Can cover the deep over the middle zone on one play and run down the QB on the next one, he is a PLAYMAKER, and that wins games. Just like Barkley can if used properly.
It amazes me  
NikkiMac : 4/2/2020 9:36 am : link
That everybody just assumes he’s even going to be available to the Giants

It’s not set in stone that The Lions are going Odukah or making a trade

They might take Simmons
All-22 of Simmons ...  
dschwarz in westchester : 4/2/2020 9:36 am : link
I am not sure if someone else posted it but posting some All-22 footage of Simmons

(I think I did that right, if not here it is for a cut-and-paste https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-7_vc8AJE4)

Short version - there are several examples in the film of him going through contact. However, there are even more of him going around people and making plays.

I really think it's a loaded statement to view him going around people as a negative. Was Barry Sanders a bad RB because he didn't run people over like Jerome Bettis? Simmons is built long and tall, and he's incredibly fast. Why would he default to trying to use strength when speed is his best asset?

Provided the coaching staff uses him correctly there is every reason to believe Simmons can be a stud defender and I don't see any reason why he'd be a bad idea at #4. (I still prefer a trade down + OT if we can work it out, but the prospects of that are looking pretty shaky these days.)
Link - ( New Window )
to me its something to be concerned with  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2020 9:39 am : link
but is it a Can't, a Won't, or a Shouldn't? And what I mean by that is is he not capable, does he refuse to, or was he coached not to at Clemson?

I didn't watch enough of them to know but its the million dollar question IMO.
RE: That is why  
Section331 : 4/2/2020 10:03 am : link
In comment 14856877 LeonBright45 said:
Quote:
many consider him to be a classic Strong Safety in the mold of a Sean Taylor, David Fultcher, Steve Atwater, kind of player who has the length to cover Tight Ends and the speed to cover half the field in zone coverage all while being able to generate enough speed and force to knock the snot out of somebody.

If he can't fight off a block to make a tackle as an ILB, and he would get crushed trying to set the edge as an OLB, he is a Safety in the NFL. I'm sure that he can play "coverage LB" on passing plays, but he is what I consider to be a back seven player, not a front seven player.

The best Safeties were a little bit crazy. Simmons is a very tame, play it safe kind of player. Might make a good pro, but I see nothing that leads me to believe that he can elevate a Defense and intimidate an Offense.


I agree with everything the OP said and what Leon says here, but I will say that I think Simmons is pretty good at setting the edge and forcing the ball carrier into traffic. He is risk averse, avoids contact with bigger OL.

The thing that really bothers me about him though is the occasional lack of hustler. In the Nat Champ game, Burrow took off down the right sideline, and Simmons jogged after him. IN THE FUCKING NAT CHAMP GAME! If he's not going to bust ass there, what does he do in game 6 at Detroit?

There is a lot to like about Simmons - elite coverage skills, sideline to sideline speed, and I do think he could thrive in a system that uses him right, but he is going to be a lightning rod type of player.
RE: All-22 of Simmons ...  
Strahan91 : 4/2/2020 10:23 am : link
In comment 14857067 dschwarz in westchester said:
Quote:
I am not sure if someone else posted it but posting some All-22 footage of Simmons

(I think I did that right, if not here it is for a cut-and-paste https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-7_vc8AJE4)

Short version - there are several examples in the film of him going through contact. However, there are even more of him going around people and making plays.

I really think it's a loaded statement to view him going around people as a negative. Was Barry Sanders a bad RB because he didn't run people over like Jerome Bettis? Simmons is built long and tall, and he's incredibly fast. Why would he default to trying to use strength when speed is his best asset?

Provided the coaching staff uses him correctly there is every reason to believe Simmons can be a stud defender and I don't see any reason why he'd be a bad idea at #4. (I still prefer a trade down + OT if we can work it out, but the prospects of that are looking pretty shaky these days.) Link - ( New Window )

This. Keeping Simmons clean made a lot more sense than using him as a traditional linebacker. Because of his speed, his ability to identify the ball and diagnose plays and then change direction and shoot out of a cannon enabled him to routinely turn potential big gains into short ones or negative ones. He's lethal in space and can chase down scrambling qb's trying to evade pressure, RB's on screens and wheel routes, tight ends up the seam, etc.
one example - ( New Window )
what was Brian Urlacher's scouting report coming out of college  
mphbullet36 : 4/2/2020 10:35 am : link
both have similar paths. Started at safety they grew and played a hybrid lineback. I still see Simmons flying around making big hits. So what if he isn't going to fly into an offensive lineup and break up a play.

Why in the world are we drafting Dexter Lawerence and paying Leonard Williams $16 MM to do? Those guys are suppose to eat up blockers and let the guys like Blake Martinez/Peppers/ and maybe soon Simmons to fly around and make plays.

This guy can blitz off the edge at corner. He can rush the edge as a DE on passing downs. He can line up on a slot WR or TE and guard him m2m or in zone.

He can even play the deep middle if we really need with his sideline to sideline speed.

If we have the interior play to free him up to run sideline to sideline then we should have no worries about him "not mixing it up". If he uses his speed and athleticism to make the play...who cares?
To be fair to the OP, this is the rub on Simmons  
PatersonPlank : 4/2/2020 10:51 am : link
and why I can't see him playing in the MLB position in the NFL. He just isn't the guy who will stick his nose in there and push off the OG or Center. He needs to be wider and get 1-on-1 with the ball carrier or receiver. All this is my opinion of course
RE: The first Giants team i truly remember was 00 and 01  
NYG007 : 4/2/2020 10:57 am : link
In comment 14856888 Sonic Youth said:
Quote:
Since that time, I rarely remember the Giants having an LB who could cover TEs or RBs out of the backfield. Who was the best at that coverage? Michael Boley?

I definitely remember getting killed by Westbrook, Witten, etc in the middle of the field.

If I had to guess, I think Simmons would be a very valuable asset in todays league.


100%, a drop back LB wreaks havoc on the NFL, period.
RE: To be fair to the OP, this is the rub on Simmons  
mphbullet36 : 4/2/2020 11:06 am : link
In comment 14857142 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
and why I can't see him playing in the MLB position in the NFL. He just isn't the guy who will stick his nose in there and push off the OG or Center. He needs to be wider and get 1-on-1 with the ball carrier or receiver. All this is my opinion of course


is that todays NFL though? Linebackers don't just take on OG all game long. They play much more in space. If our high priced/big name interior DL are doing there jobs Simmons shouldn't have to be consistently taking on OG's all game long. He should be allowed to go sideline to sideline wreaking havoc on opposing offenses.
I..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/2/2020 11:11 am : link
do not want Simmons to be the pick at #4, but the idea that he intentionally avoids contact or can't hit are really off-base. He had several very hard hits this season, and he's been able to run with TE's and RB's.

There can be reasons why he won't be the pick at #4 and you can make the case that he's a better S than LB, but we shouldn't be making shit up or acting as if the guy avoids contact because he doesn't want to hit or be hit.
RE: All-22 of Simmons ...  
Victor in CT : 4/2/2020 11:20 am : link
In comment 14857067 dschwarz in westchester said:
Quote:
I am not sure if someone else posted it but posting some All-22 footage of Simmons

(I think I did that right, if not here it is for a cut-and-paste https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-7_vc8AJE4)

Short version - there are several examples in the film of him going through contact. However, there are even more of him going around people and making plays.

I really think it's a loaded statement to view him going around people as a negative. Was Barry Sanders a bad RB because he didn't run people over like Jerome Bettis? Simmons is built long and tall, and he's incredibly fast. Why would he default to trying to use strength when speed is his best asset?

Provided the coaching staff uses him correctly there is every reason to believe Simmons can be a stud defender and I don't see any reason why he'd be a bad idea at #4. (I still prefer a trade down + OT if we can work it out, but the prospects of that are looking pretty shaky these days.) Link - ( New Window )


"there are even more of him going around people and making plays."

That's in college. Big difference
RE: RE: To be fair to the OP, this is the rub on Simmons  
PatersonPlank : 4/2/2020 11:24 am : link
In comment 14857160 mphbullet36 said:
Quote:
In comment 14857142 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


and why I can't see him playing in the MLB position in the NFL. He just isn't the guy who will stick his nose in there and push off the OG or Center. He needs to be wider and get 1-on-1 with the ball carrier or receiver. All this is my opinion of course



is that todays NFL though? Linebackers don't just take on OG all game long. They play much more in space. If our high priced/big name interior DL are doing there jobs Simmons shouldn't have to be consistently taking on OG's all game long. He should be allowed to go sideline to sideline wreaking havoc on opposing offenses.


Not at the middle LB positions. They need to be physical at the point of attack. Edge/OLB can get away with being less physical
RE: what was Brian Urlacher's scouting report coming out of college  
Section331 : 4/2/2020 11:32 am : link
In comment 14857125 mphbullet36 said:
Quote:
both have similar paths. Started at safety they grew and played a hybrid lineback. I still see Simmons flying around making big hits. So what if he isn't going to fly into an offensive lineup and break up a play.


Urlacher was a thumper, even at S at NM. Simmons doesn't at all fit that mold. That doesn't mean that Simmons isn't going to be an all-pro, but I sincerely doubt it will be at the MIKE as it was with Urlacher.
I will add that I think Simmons can play LB  
Section331 : 4/2/2020 11:36 am : link
in the right system. Put him at WOLB in a 3-4 set, and it really becomes a 3-3-5. His versatility is his biggest asset, you don't need to make any concessions if he is on an island covering a TE, RB or slot WR.
Everyone needs to a top with Urlacher  
Tuckrule : 4/2/2020 11:56 am : link
It’s honestly so dumb to me how people look at urlacher as a model for what Simmons can be. Urlacher was 258 at the combine. Let that sink in. 258!!! He was as physical as a linebacker could be. Could stack and shed and was a thickly built person who grew into his frame. Simmons is filled out. Narrow hips. Skinny legs naturally. He isn’t a middle linebacker. Urlacher had that mentality along with the toughness and size. The comparison to Urlacher is ridiculous. Think lavonte David before you think of Urlacher and David is 6 foot 1 230. 3 inches shorter 8 pounds lighter. Simmons coverage isn’t great. He’s tremendously overrated. He played zone often dropping down into the robber role. He wasn’t acting as a deep half or center field safety. Like I’ve said. The genius DC at Clemson saw Enough similarities with Jayron Kearse to offer Simmons the same role Kearse was offered. If Jayron Kearse, in the same system, had those free blitz lanes and racked up sacks and TFL would he have been the top 5 player in the draft.
RE: Again, to put actual facts  
Tuckrule : 4/2/2020 11:59 am : link
In comment 14857013 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
The guy made 21 plays last year behind the line of scrimmage

14 TFLs and 7 sacks.

The idea that he is just a chaser down the field and avoids contact and can’t be played up front does not match the facts,


You def have not seen one game tape. Please do yourself a favor and show me a player where he wasn’t schemed open and actually made a play on the ball in the backfield. Your going to find one clip where he bulldozes a back who has literally the worst blocking technique I’ve ever seen. Good luck doing that to AP, zeke or saquon. He’ll end like Keith rivers vs Hines ward
Running past a blocker with your 4.3 40  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 4/2/2020 12:02 pm : link
Is a form of block shedding.
Saw a comment  
UGADawgs7 : 4/2/2020 12:04 pm : link
Where someone stated he can be a QB spy... yeah we kind of witnessed Burrow make him his bitch in the CF championship...
RE: Running past a blocker with your 4.3 40  
Tuckrule : 4/2/2020 12:17 pm : link
In comment 14857266 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
Is a form of block shedding.


Laughable. Go watch his full game tapes vs charlotte and wofford. 2 terrible football schools and Simmons was truly invisible. Why? Both teams ran run heavy offenses and Simmons spent the game on the turf. Running past blockers also means your running away from your run lane. Part of run defense is filling the gap and stacking.
someone point me to a safety who rushes the passer like this  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2020 12:21 pm : link
Last year he rushed the passer just 72 times and came away with 30 total pressures, including eight sacks, four hits and 18 hurries. Also 5 FF in the past 2 years.

He is not LT and he is not Luke Kuechly - both are very different players. But Luke Kuechly wasn't LT and he was still a great LB. Let Simmons play his own style, and do the things he does exceptionally well and are crucial to today's game (particularly coverage and rushing the passer).

Watch these highlights then tell me what his stats would have looked like last year if he rushed the QB 400 times instead of 72...
Clemson LB Isaiah Simmons Highlights ᴴᴰ - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Running past a blocker with your 4.3 40  
mphbullet36 : 4/2/2020 12:39 pm : link
In comment 14857280 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 14857266 Coach Red Beaulieu said:


Quote:


Is a form of block shedding.



Laughable. Go watch his full game tapes vs charlotte and wofford. 2 terrible football schools and Simmons was truly invisible. Why? Both teams ran run heavy offenses and Simmons spent the game on the turf. Running past blockers also means your running away from your run lane. Part of run defense is filling the gap and stacking.


and how much of the CURRENT NFL is about stacking?

60% of NFL are passing and a lot more percentage of runs come out of the shotgun in 1 RB sets. Its more about playing in space then its about block shedding nowadays. You don't even draft lineman to be maulers anymore, its more zone blocking schemes.

The game has changed and your speaking like LB's need ot be in the mold of Carl Banks when they don't.

Guess the play with the below weaknesses coming out of the drat...

Weaknesses:
After adding 50 pounds during his stay in college, his frame may be beginning to max out
Thin through arms and chest and lacks desired, NFL play strength
Has very little margin for error when taking on climbing offensive linemen
Doesn't always take efficient routes around traffic in his pursuit
Play demeanor lacks aggression usually spotted at linebacker
Relies on athleticism to slip blocks on second level rather than racing downhill ahead of them
Willing hitter but needs to add more pop behind his pads
Can still improve instincts and pattern reading in man coverage
It seems there are a lot of posters  
Mike from Ohio : 4/2/2020 12:43 pm : link
who still view the ideal linebacker traits as being stout against the run and having a nasty streak. Those are good qualities, but not what is best suited to today's NFL game.

Simmons strength is not filling run gaps and leveling hits that can be featured on "jacked up" segments on ESPN. If that is what you are looking for then I am sure you hate the thought of drafting him at #4.

However, if you are looking for a guy with versatility and that brings speed, a high football IQ and production to a defense that last year had little of those, he is a good fit for this team.
It's still football  
LeonBright45 : 4/2/2020 12:51 pm : link
You trot Simmons out there at MLB against the 49ers, Titans, or Ravens and then inform the opposing offense that this is the new way we play football and they need to go 11 personal and run nothing but sweeps and shotgun draws. Otherwise prepare to see your modern day newfangled LB get broken in half. That is what is great about the game; no matter how people try to change it with the latest trends we still have to come back to the basics because they can't be avoided; just when you adapt your defense for the future half the teams then decide to go old school on you.
RE: It's still football  
mphbullet36 : 4/2/2020 12:55 pm : link
In comment 14857320 LeonBright45 said:
Quote:
You trot Simmons out there at MLB against the 49ers, Titans, or Ravens and then inform the opposing offense that this is the new way we play football and they need to go 11 personal and run nothing but sweeps and shotgun draws. Otherwise prepare to see your modern day newfangled LB get broken in half. That is what is great about the game; no matter how people try to change it with the latest trends we still have to come back to the basics because they can't be avoided; just when you adapt your defense for the future half the teams then decide to go old school on you.


correct and that is the job of our highly talented run stuffing interior DL to control the run game.

It will be Simmons job to try and slow down Kittle which very little people can do because of his size and speed. Simmons would be one of them.
I agree, that should be his assignment  
LeonBright45 : 4/2/2020 12:58 pm : link
AS A SAFETY, not as a LB
RE: Saw a comment  
twostepgiants : 4/2/2020 1:00 pm : link
In comment 14857267 UGADawgs7 said:
Quote:
Where someone stated he can be a QB spy... yeah we kind of witnessed Burrow make him his bitch in the CF championship...


Joe Burrow stated that LSU had to change its entire game plan to deal with Simmons affect in the game.

Remember the game before Clemson, Burrow threw for 400 yds abd 7 TD in a half!

So Id say Simmons did a pretty good job for 1 guy.




RE: I agree, that should be his assignment  
mphbullet36 : 4/2/2020 1:04 pm : link
In comment 14857328 LeonBright45 said:
Quote:
AS A SAFETY, not as a LB


and how many "safeties" get 7 sacks with also 30 pressures on about 70 pass rushes

the point is he can play more of a safety role vs run heavy teams and he can play linebacker and edge rusher/blitzer vs pass heavy teams.

His versatility makes him so valuable.
RE: RE: Again, to put actual facts  
twostepgiants : 4/2/2020 1:04 pm : link
In comment 14857264 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 14857013 twostepgiants said:


Quote:


The guy made 21 plays last year behind the line of scrimmage

14 TFLs and 7 sacks.

The idea that he is just a chaser down the field and avoids contact and can’t be played up front does not match the facts,



You def have not seen one game tape. Please do yourself a favor and show me a player where he wasn’t schemed open and actually made a play on the ball in the backfield. Your going to find one clip where he bulldozes a back who has literally the worst blocking technique I’ve ever seen. Good luck doing that to AP, zeke or saquon. He’ll end like Keith rivers vs Hines ward


Oh nonsense, he was just "schemed open". If its do easy why didnt every team just "scheme open" a guy to get 100+ tackles, 14 TFLs, 7 sacks etc?
The answer is Simmons has a unique skill set that allows the scheme to be developed to get him open
RE: RE: Again, to put actual facts  
twostepgiants : 4/2/2020 1:21 pm : link
In comment 14857264 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 14857013 twostepgiants said:


Quote:


The guy made 21 plays last year behind the line of scrimmage

14 TFLs and 7 sacks.

The idea that he is just a chaser down the field and avoids contact and can’t be played up front does not match the facts,



You def have not seen one game tape. Please do yourself a favor and show me a player where he wasn’t schemed open and actually made a play on the ball in the backfield. Your going to find one clip where he bulldozes a back who has literally the worst blocking technique I’ve ever seen. Good luck doing that to AP, zeke or saquon. He’ll end like Keith rivers vs Hines ward


Oh nonsense, he was just "schemed open". If its do easy why didnt every team just "scheme open" a guy to get 100+ tackles, 14 TFLs, 7 sacks etc?
The answer is Simmons has a unique skill set that allows the scheme to be developed to get him open
Two step  
Tuckrule : 4/2/2020 1:36 pm : link
Watch the film it’s all there. I urge you to chart every single TFL and sack he had. Just watch it. Schemes open is a real thing when your at Clemson behind that D line. You my friend are fooled by stats. Football isn’t baseball.
You'd swear..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/2/2020 1:37 pm : link
from some of these comments that Simmons purposely avoids contact, is a product of a system and hates playing the run. What's with the extreme hyperbole?

Someone watched his tapes against Charlotte and Wofford and thought he was invisible?? Well guess what that must mean? That he tore it up against the better schools and top-flight competition.

You can argue he shouldn't be the pick for us without making it seem like he's a bad player. He's likely going to have a very good NFL career.
Mph  
Tuckrule : 4/2/2020 1:39 pm : link
So Simmons has zero run responsibilities? Stacking and shedding is what every edge/linebacker needs to do. So well let him roam as the deep safety Aka Taylor mays. He’s going to be an epic failure based off the expectations people have for him. Your getting Taylor mays not Sean Taylor
His defensive..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/2/2020 1:43 pm : link
coordinator says how Simmons is different than Kearse:

Quote:
THE THING ABOUT finding a good linebacker, according to Venables, is the guy has to want to hit. He can't be subtle about it. Inflicting damage has to be more than a hobby.

"Guy's got to bite," Venables said, "and if he doesn't bite when he's a puppy, he won't when he's grown up."

Venables has tried to force the issue before. For all the new-age platitudes lauded upon Simmons this year, the hybrid linebacker position isn't new for Clemson. It was just a few years ago that Venables pushed Jayron Kearse to make a similar move from safety into the box, but Kearse wouldn't do it. Linebackers are grunts. Defensive backs have style. Kearse was a DB; or that's at least what Venables called him, regardless of how he actually was used.

Simmons is a different case.
Fatman  
Tuckrule : 4/2/2020 1:47 pm : link
No I’ve seen almost every game he’s played on tape. The full tape. Not YouTube highlights. I gave those 2 teams as examples vs the run heavy offense he’s atrocious. It’s funny how you twist my comments. He wasn’t good vs Ohio state at all. Check him in the slot. The only time he covered a WR. Goal line he defended the slot the guy didn’t even make a move and blew right by Simmons. He does not have fluid hips. Which is why when he played safety often it was the robber Role aka moving forward. I’ll repeat it again. Unless you think he’s Sean Taylor. You do not take him anywhere near the top 10. That’s my opinion. Let’s revisit these threads next offseason
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/2/2020 1:58 pm : link
Full tape.

Good for you. We'll see how well you processed the information you saw next year.
RE: LOL..  
Tuckrule : 4/2/2020 2:06 pm : link
In comment 14857397 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Full tape.

Good for you. We'll see how well you processed the information you saw next year.


You could mock me all you want. At least I watched as much film as I could to form my own opinion and I stand by it. I actually cited example. All I hear from the pro simmons guys is a scouting report they found on Walter football. You got time, go watch some full games. Educate yourself
like clockwork  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2020 2:18 pm : link
every year, people think that what a player is in college is ultimately what he will be in the pros. See: Daniel Jones, Odell Beckham, etc.

Simmons' upside in the NFL is literally off the charts. You aren't drafting him to be what he was at Clemson.
he's stretching out those 230 pounds  
bc4life : 4/2/2020 2:24 pm : link
over a 6'4" frame - should he be a safety? I'm thinking he is a safety who can play LB
RE: like clockwork  
UGADawgs7 : 4/2/2020 2:29 pm : link
In comment 14857422 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
every year, people think that what a player is in college is ultimately what he will be in the pros. See: Daniel Jones, Odell Beckham, etc.

Simmons' upside in the NFL is literally off the charts. You aren't drafting him to be what he was at Clemson.


So what are we drafting him to be? He was a system guy at Clemson. Out of nowhere he can do other things against pros? The only way he is worth the 4 pick is if he magically turns into Sean Taylor.
UGA  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2020 3:42 pm : link
how about a way more athletic version of Darius Leonard?
NFL  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2020 3:44 pm : link
is no longer a run up the middle league. It's a sideline to sideline game, which is why you see guys like Leonard taking the league by storm, he's all over the field. Simmons is that kind of guy. Forget about "oh he has to be a safety" or "oh he has to be OLB" just put him on the field, he'll make plays.
RE: It amazes me  
TMS : 4/2/2020 5:24 pm : link
In comment 14857066 NikkiMac said:
Quote:
That everybody just assumes he’s even going to be available to the Giants

It’s not set in stone that The Lions are going Odukah or making a trade

They might take Simmons
. Read this myself, then we will take Okudah or trade down. Seems simple if you want the value for that top 4 pick. None of the others do, they are flawed reach need picks like Pugh and Flowers. DG wants value there I am sure.
RE: RE: It amazes me  
Klaatu : 4/2/2020 5:53 pm : link
In comment 14857602 TMS said:
Quote:
In comment 14857066 NikkiMac said:


Quote:


That everybody just assumes he’s even going to be available to the Giants

It’s not set in stone that The Lions are going Odukah or making a trade

They might take Simmons

. Read this myself, then we will take Okudah or trade down. Seems simple if you want the value for that top 4 pick. None of the others do, they are flawed reach need picks like Pugh and Flowers. DG wants value there I am sure.


Please explain in detail exactly how Jedrick Wills is a "flawed reach" comparable to Justin Pugh and Ereck Flowers.

Thanks in advance.
RE: RE: LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/2/2020 5:59 pm : link
In comment 14857409 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 14857397 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


Full tape.

Good for you. We'll see how well you processed the information you saw next year.



You could mock me all you want. At least I watched as much film as I could to form my own opinion and I stand by it. I actually cited example. All I hear from the pro simmons guys is a scouting report they found on Walter football. You got time, go watch some full games. Educate yourself


Great. So you watched tape and are now an expert?? I saw Daniel Jones play games and I thought he'd be a terrible NFL QB. I cited examples of where he struggled. If it were as easy to watch tape, any fucking schlub can get a TV and be a draft expert.

If you watch tape and come away with the impression Simmons doesn't like contact - I don't know what to fucking tell you.

Well, I actually do know what to tell you - but you aren't too accepting of it....
RE: he's stretching out those 230 pounds  
section125 : 4/2/2020 7:47 pm : link
In comment 14857429 bc4life said:
Quote:
over a 6'4" frame - should he be a safety? I'm thinking he is a safety who can play LB


Closer to 240, but Peppers basically is playing LB at 205, as was Collins at 215.
Yes he is lanky. But his legs look pretty stout, which is were the power comes from.
Wasn't Leonard Floyd an ER/OLB for the Bears at 235 lbs and he was actually thinner than Simmons?
RE: It amazes me  
shyster : 4/2/2020 7:54 pm : link
In comment 14857066 NikkiMac said:
Quote:
That everybody just assumes he’s even going to be available to the Giants

It’s not set in stone that The Lions are going Odukah or making a trade

They might take Simmons


Lions' free agency moves do not fit a plan for Simmons.

He won't go top 3.


usatoday - ( New Window )
I've seen Simmons used as a "Jack of All Trades" defender for matchups  
SGMen : 4/2/2020 8:32 pm : link
Simmons is your starting FS, I do believe, as his best skill is his athleticism and speed. He understand the game and would make a great mid-fielder.
He could play nickel LB in coverage and occassionally blitz as well.
But he isn't a WLB or MLB by any means.
This is a laughable thread  
JoeyBigBlue : 4/2/2020 9:29 pm : link
The OP makes a silly claim and shows no proof of his claim. Simmons is considered the one of the top 3 prospects in this entire draft by many. Guess they are all wrong.
Kam Chancellor  
bc4life : 4/2/2020 10:15 pm : link
Was 6’3” -225.

Simmons is 6’4. 230. Obviously Chancellor was a collision expert but shows someone that size can play safety at extremely high level. And you still have the ability to use him as a pass rusher. I think he’s a safety-plus. A team may lower his ceiling by insisting that he play linebacker
Tuckrule touched upon it  
JonC : 4/2/2020 10:18 pm : link
it's the slim hips and skinny legs he has that you never see on an NFL LB. Easier to get injured and not be able to withstand the rigors of the NFL game. So, the 6'4 238 is a bit misleading because he's 6'4. He could be the new breed of speed, he could be a cog in the future NYG defense, I just don't want to invest the #4 overall pick in a hybrid FS/ILB at this point in time.
Lot of people arguing for him at # 4 pick.  
bc4life : 4/2/2020 10:21 pm : link
Wonder if it would change their minds if Judge said we’re going to play him primarily as a safety?
RE: Tuckrule touched upon it  
twostepgiants : 4/2/2020 10:41 pm : link
In comment 14857800 JonC said:
Quote:
it's the slim hips and skinny legs he has that you never see on an NFL LB. Easier to get injured and not be able to withstand the rigors of the NFL game. So, the 6'4 238 is a bit misleading because he's 6'4. He could be the new breed of speed, he could be a cog in the future NYG defense, I just don't want to invest the #4 overall pick in a hybrid FS/ILB at this point in time.


Buried in a Nate Ebner quote, Bill Belichick said this

“at a position that he plays right in the middle of the field, which is among the most difficult – inside linebacker and safety – where the number of things that can happen is the greatest."

The number of things that can happen is the greatest, maybe the ILB/FS is severely misundervalued one?
RE: RE: Tuckrule touched upon it  
JonC : 4/2/2020 10:46 pm : link
In comment 14857823 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14857800 JonC said:


Quote:


it's the slim hips and skinny legs he has that you never see on an NFL LB. Easier to get injured and not be able to withstand the rigors of the NFL game. So, the 6'4 238 is a bit misleading because he's 6'4. He could be the new breed of speed, he could be a cog in the future NYG defense, I just don't want to invest the #4 overall pick in a hybrid FS/ILB at this point in time.



Buried in a Nate Ebner quote, Bill Belichick said this

“at a position that he plays right in the middle of the field, which is among the most difficult – inside linebacker and safety – where the number of things that can happen is the greatest."

The number of things that can happen is the greatest, maybe the ILB/FS is severely misundervalued one?


When Belicheck spends a #4 overall pick in there, I'll listen.
Jaylon Smith  
allstarjim : 4/2/2020 11:27 pm : link
Plays linebacker, pretty good at it, too.

Also, he's good against the run.

Telvin Smith who was so critical on that great Jacksonville defense that should've beat the Patriots in the playoffs if not for a blown down by contact call on a fumble recovery that would've been a scoop and score.

Why are/were these guys so successful? Great linebackers! Both are smaller than Simmons.

Von Miller...combine weight 8 lbs bigger than Simmons, one of the fiercest pass rushers in our game and will be a HOFer.

Simmons is a instinctual, intelligent, player with rare, rare, rare physical gifts. I can see him on the edge with the QB not knowing if he's going to blow past his RT or run with his TE or spy or drop into zone coverage. And he can do all of that very well, which makes him a dangerous weapon on the defense.

His tape isn't perfect. He can clean things up. But that's what you have your NFL coaches for. And he has the ability and intelligence to soak all that up and be a better player than he was in college.

He's 21 years old with his best football I'm front of him. Our defense has NFL top 5 potential if he is what I think he is, which is an offensive game plan wrecker and complete mismatch wherever you put him.

You guys are worried about Guards blocking him out of plays...well first you have to get your hands on him, and he's going to beat those guys more often than not because of his speed and quickness. He's too damn fast for these guys.

If we're at 4 and he's on the board, unless I can move down and get extra picks, he's my guy.
RE: Jaylon Smith  
Tuckrule : 4/3/2020 7:47 am : link
In comment 14857849 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Plays linebacker, pretty good at it, too.

Also, he's good against the run.

Telvin Smith who was so critical on that great Jacksonville defense that should've beat the Patriots in the playoffs if not for a blown down by contact call on a fumble recovery that would've been a scoop and score.

Why are/were these guys so successful? Great linebackers! Both are smaller than Simmons.

Von Miller...combine weight 8 lbs bigger than Simmons, one of the fiercest pass rushers in our game and will be a HOFer.

Simmons is a instinctual, intelligent, player with rare, rare, rare physical gifts. I can see him on the edge with the QB not knowing if he's going to blow past his RT or run with his TE or spy or drop into zone coverage. And he can do all of that very well, which makes him a dangerous weapon on the defense.

His tape isn't perfect. He can clean things up. But that's what you have your NFL coaches for. And he has the ability and intelligence to soak all that up and be a better player than he was in college.

He's 21 years old with his best football I'm front of him. Our defense has NFL top 5 potential if he is what I think he is, which is an offensive game plan wrecker and complete mismatch wherever you put him.

You guys are worried about Guards blocking him out of plays...well first you have to get your hands on him, and he's going to beat those guys more often than not because of his speed and quickness. He's too damn fast for these guys.

If we're at 4 and he's on the board, unless I can move down and get extra picks, he's my guy.


Jaylon Smith 6 foot 2 240. 2 inches shorter and 2 lbs heavier. Also jaylon always played linebacker. Besides being stockier it’s a mentality.

It wasn’t telvin Smith it was Myles jack.

Von Miller. 6 foot 3 250. 1 inch shorter 12 lbs heavier.

These comparisons are forced and are ridiculous. Your comparing a converted safety to a hybrid linebacker to a guy in jaylon who played the position his whole life and if not for blowing out his knee was a top 10 lock at the linebacker position. Comparing von Miller to Simmons!!! Holy shit. Von Miller has heavy hands is fast as hell and has much more flexibility in his bend and dip then Simmons could dream about not to mention he’s shorter and 12 lbs heavier. Look at their lower bodies. Stop focusing on his weight. Look at his frame and size and tell me if that will hold up rushing vs NFL tackles. He doesn’t have the base to hold up anywhere near the LOS
Listed height and weight isn't apples to apples  
JonC : 4/3/2020 8:11 am : link
You have to look at their build from shoulders to legs, their power to anchor the point of attack against much larger men, etc. Landon Collins isn't much smaller than Lavonte David, if you only look at their roster listings, and yet LC is not able to play LB fulltime in the NFL. Simmons from the waist down is not your typical LB, slim hips and skinny legs. It doesn't mean he cannot play in the NFL, but it does mean his game is not predicated on power.
why dont we all just say that SImmons is the greatest player in  
Victor in CT : 4/3/2020 8:31 am : link
the draft and Clowney is the greatest FA ever, then we can delete 2 threads that wont die LOL
A Clarification of Original Post  
HugeS : 4/3/2020 2:12 pm : link
Became a big Simmons fans after watching the LSU game. I saw the highlight tape on Voch Lombardi's channel and started watching his games over. Like many here I became a Giants fan and started playing football because of LT. He's the untouchable gold standard. Going in I loved Simmons intangibles even if posters whose strong opinions I respect like JonC said he's not a true linebacker. Ended up sitting down watching some complete games and came to the conclusions I put in the start of thread. I've gone back and re watched all the games I could and actually charted everything Simmons did. I've spent more time on this than I'd care to admit. Its too much to put in this thread. I could start a separate thread with my notes or at least provide links to notable games if people here want to do their own research.

Like many others on this board, I'm just a passionate fan who wants to see things with my own eyes. There are a ton of lazy analysts and talking heads out there spouting bullshit about players. I have tremendous respect for the professionals that are actually very serious about their craft and really take the time to study the players like Sy56. The work he does to inform and educate us is invaluable.

1. People saying Simmons plays and feels more natural at safety are right. Its clear he's still feeling his way at the position and the vibe that he's sometimes going through the motions or not playing as aggressively may be a product of this. Didn't realize he's literally only taken reps as a linebacker for two seasons at Clemson. He played wr and free safety in high school. His progression to becoming one of the best college players in the country is much more impressive in this context. After seeing a larger number of his reps I realized that when he was confident about what was in front of him you started seeing some of those alpha traits emerge.

2. My opinion that Simmons hates contact was overstated in my OP and I retract some of what I felt earlier. Clemson has an extremely physical defense, one of the most physical in the country. Simmons was surrounded by playmakers that thrive on physical aggression like James Skalski, and K'von Wallace. He's not them, but his inability to fill a gap with the hair on fire approach of a Skalski was as much a product of learning to trust his instincts while reading and diagnosing things close to the line of scrimmage as a lack of desire to get dirty.

3. His physical limitations - This has been way overstated. Yeah he's tall and skinny but the guy is very big and plenty strong for a modern outside linebacker with a lot of room to grow. When he did take on full grown man size tackles and guards he was getting turned but he wasn't getting smashed. Like many have pointed out his skinny legs aren't gonna win any powerlifting championships, but he is by no means a weakling who just tucks and runs at the first sign of an oncoming blocker. What you see is a total lack of experience where he struggles to use his hands to effectively disengage from blockers at the attack point or fails to keep his eyes upfield when wading through trash. LSU game exposed his struggles on the biggest stage but this was going on all season. He'd let blockers get their hands into his body and turn him or he'd turn his head and shoulders into the blocker while attacking a side, taking himself completely out the play before it even got to him. The same lack of experience showed up when he was asked to bring pressure off the edge. He had no effective plan most of the time except to out athlete his blocker, but you started to see a viable dip and rip move emerging through the course of the season. If he could learn how to set up blockers better with his speed move and finish with an effective counter like an inside spin he could become a devastating situational pass rusher off the edge even if he's not the bendiest athlete in the world.

3. Clemson loved using him at free safety and manning the slot. He's most at home playing the deep safety role where he can comfortably see everything in front of him and run and chase the action. They'd line him up in zone schemes across from the slot receiver a lot. In the Ohio State game he was used mostly at free safety which was really frustrating to watch for someone hoping to see linebacker reps, but showed how much Venables trusted him manning the back end. It worked since he was part of a unit that effectively neutralized Ohio State's vertical attack and forced Fields to work underneath where he struggled. Simmons isn't quick footed enough to play man to man on quick twitch athletes like scat backs and slot receivers, but he's perfectly built to eliminate tight ends, and he has the recover speed to handle wideouts in zones.

4. He'll be an extremely effective weapon against the new breed of dual threat option QBs taking over the league like Lamar Jackson and Kyler Murray. Clemson used him a lot as a spy. He had arguably his best game against Louisville who had two speed QB's and ran option all game. On one these designed plays Simmons shocked Cunningham in the backfield he closed on him so fast.

5. LSU game showed he can be a really good linebacker but he's also a major work in progress who'll need time to develop. This game was like a game of two halves. In the first half up until the final drive, he showed the confidence and instincts of somebody making plays and not overthinking things. He played like an absolute stud. In the final drive of first half and a lot of the second half he looked more unsure of himself and seemed confused by some of what LSU was throwing at him. In fairness LSU runs some of the most complex blocking schemes in the country. The traps they were setting up at the line of scrimmage were more in line with what Simmons will have to face week in and week out in the NFL.

6. In conclusion I've circled around and think Simmons could turn out to be a really good pick at 4 if the Giants are patient. His game screams classic Ron Rivera or Pete Carroll pick who becomes an all pro in their system in a few years.
He fills a lot of boxes in the new more play action, spread oriented modern NFL but shouldn't be expected to be a superstar right out of the gate. The Giants defense is desperate for playmakers but he's not Chase Young or Zach Baun who have the highly developed skill sets to jump into a starting front seven and ball out on day one. He'll need a coaching staff that brings him on slowly enough to tap his potential without overwhelming him. His floor is higher as a safety in the NFL but his ceiling is higher as a linebacker. If Patrick Graham and his coaching staff develop him the right way he could go from a situational movable chess piece with plus coverage skills to one of the best linebackers in the league in three or four years. he'll be the ultimate litmus test of a coaching staff's ability to teach and motivate since the potential is sky high.
@HugeS  
nyfootballfan : 4/3/2020 3:49 pm : link
your clarification seems like a very polite panning.
of course we may all eat our words here
but i don't think he's worthy of a top 5, if even 10.
looks like a tweener who'll be eaten up by run game.
a very high ceiling project.
most importantly is he an athlete or a football player?
RE: RE: Running past a blocker with your 4.3 40  
allstarjim : 4/3/2020 4:19 pm : link
In comment 14857280 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 14857266 Coach Red Beaulieu said:


Quote:


Is a form of block shedding.



Laughable. Go watch his full game tapes vs charlotte and wofford. 2 terrible football schools and Simmons was truly invisible. Why? Both teams ran run heavy offenses and Simmons spent the game on the turf. Running past blockers also means your running away from your run lane. Part of run defense is filling the gap and stacking.


He was invisible? I saw him make a tremendous INT vs Wofford. I think he only played one half of football in that game. I haven't found video of that full game tape or vs Charlotte. Where are you watching it? If you have a link or resource to share I'd appreciate it.
RE: RE: Jaylon Smith  
allstarjim : 4/3/2020 4:32 pm : link
In comment 14857912 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 14857849 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Plays linebacker, pretty good at it, too.

Also, he's good against the run.

Telvin Smith who was so critical on that great Jacksonville defense that should've beat the Patriots in the playoffs if not for a blown down by contact call on a fumble recovery that would've been a scoop and score.

Why are/were these guys so successful? Great linebackers! Both are smaller than Simmons.

Von Miller...combine weight 8 lbs bigger than Simmons, one of the fiercest pass rushers in our game and will be a HOFer.

Simmons is a instinctual, intelligent, player with rare, rare, rare physical gifts. I can see him on the edge with the QB not knowing if he's going to blow past his RT or run with his TE or spy or drop into zone coverage. And he can do all of that very well, which makes him a dangerous weapon on the defense.

His tape isn't perfect. He can clean things up. But that's what you have your NFL coaches for. And he has the ability and intelligence to soak all that up and be a better player than he was in college.

He's 21 years old with his best football I'm front of him. Our defense has NFL top 5 potential if he is what I think he is, which is an offensive game plan wrecker and complete mismatch wherever you put him.

You guys are worried about Guards blocking him out of plays...well first you have to get your hands on him, and he's going to beat those guys more often than not because of his speed and quickness. He's too damn fast for these guys.

If we're at 4 and he's on the board, unless I can move down and get extra picks, he's my guy.



Jaylon Smith 6 foot 2 240. 2 inches shorter and 2 lbs heavier. Also jaylon always played linebacker. Besides being stockier it’s a mentality.

It wasn’t telvin Smith it was Myles jack.

Von Miller. 6 foot 3 250. 1 inch shorter 12 lbs heavier.

These comparisons are forced and are ridiculous. Your comparing a converted safety to a hybrid linebacker to a guy in jaylon who played the position his whole life and if not for blowing out his knee was a top 10 lock at the linebacker position. Comparing von Miller to Simmons!!! Holy shit. Von Miller has heavy hands is fast as hell and has much more flexibility in his bend and dip then Simmons could dream about not to mention he’s shorter and 12 lbs heavier. Look at their lower bodies. Stop focusing on his weight. Look at his frame and size and tell me if that will hold up rushing vs NFL tackles. He doesn’t have the base to hold up anywhere near the LOS


First of all, I said Telvin Smith and meant Telvin Smith. Anyone who knew that 2017 team knew that Telvin Smith was a huge part of that defense. He made the Pro Bowl that year, racked up over 100 tackles in just 14 games, had a few interceptions, a couple of forced fumbles, and was very good as a coverage linebacker. And his listed height/weight he played at was 6'3" 215 lbs.

Secondly, if we are comparing apples to apples, which is what I was doing, I am comparing their combine measurables, not after they've been in an NFL program for several years. Simmons is 238 lbs right now. Jaylon Smith weighed in at the combine at 6'2", 223 lbs.

So, if you are saying that Jaylon Smith was able to be as fast as he was in college and put on an additional 22 lbs in the NFL (his listed weight is 245 lbs today), then I feel pretty good that Simmons can add another 7 or 8. This is not a small guy, he has enough right now, and he will get more weight on...it just will happen because he's still growing in to that frame at only 21 years old.
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