Theres no question he's a really special athlete, probably in the top 99.9 percentile for all linebackers that ever played in the NFL. His cover skills are already to a level where he could realistically be the best coverage linebacker in the NFL from day one. In space he's an absolute playmaker. The problem is like others have pointed out, the guy hates contact. He plays timid when negotiating blockers or taking on gap responsibilities. If you sit down and watch the All 22, just count how many business decisions he makes per game. He's clearly very smart, his read and diagnose is good, he's fluid in space, and he covers like a demon, but the dude will literally do anything he can to avoid mixing it up and getting his jersey dirty. Its actually maddening to think how special he could be if he had more of a Patrick Willis mentality. Unfortunately thats what he is right now, a lightning fast coverage guy so talented he can handle the deep middle or the slot but who is lets just politely say a bit risk averse when it comes to dealing with any action around the line of scrimmage. I really want to like Simmons at 4 but I'm just not sure. Do you guys think this one dimension to his game is too rare to pass up? Could this coaching staff get him to trust his instincts more and play more aggressively around the line of scrimmage?
Buried in a Nate Ebner quote, Bill Belichick said this
“at a position that he plays right in the middle of the field, which is among the most difficult – inside linebacker and safety – where the number of things that can happen is the greatest."
The number of things that can happen is the greatest, maybe the ILB/FS is severely misundervalued one?
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it's the slim hips and skinny legs he has that you never see on an NFL LB. Easier to get injured and not be able to withstand the rigors of the NFL game. So, the 6'4 238 is a bit misleading because he's 6'4. He could be the new breed of speed, he could be a cog in the future NYG defense, I just don't want to invest the #4 overall pick in a hybrid FS/ILB at this point in time.
Buried in a Nate Ebner quote, Bill Belichick said this
“at a position that he plays right in the middle of the field, which is among the most difficult – inside linebacker and safety – where the number of things that can happen is the greatest."
The number of things that can happen is the greatest, maybe the ILB/FS is severely misundervalued one?
When Belicheck spends a #4 overall pick in there, I'll listen.
Also, he's good against the run.
Telvin Smith who was so critical on that great Jacksonville defense that should've beat the Patriots in the playoffs if not for a blown down by contact call on a fumble recovery that would've been a scoop and score.
Why are/were these guys so successful? Great linebackers! Both are smaller than Simmons.
Von Miller...combine weight 8 lbs bigger than Simmons, one of the fiercest pass rushers in our game and will be a HOFer.
Simmons is a instinctual, intelligent, player with rare, rare, rare physical gifts. I can see him on the edge with the QB not knowing if he's going to blow past his RT or run with his TE or spy or drop into zone coverage. And he can do all of that very well, which makes him a dangerous weapon on the defense.
His tape isn't perfect. He can clean things up. But that's what you have your NFL coaches for. And he has the ability and intelligence to soak all that up and be a better player than he was in college.
He's 21 years old with his best football I'm front of him. Our defense has NFL top 5 potential if he is what I think he is, which is an offensive game plan wrecker and complete mismatch wherever you put him.
You guys are worried about Guards blocking him out of plays...well first you have to get your hands on him, and he's going to beat those guys more often than not because of his speed and quickness. He's too damn fast for these guys.
If we're at 4 and he's on the board, unless I can move down and get extra picks, he's my guy.
Also, he's good against the run.
Telvin Smith who was so critical on that great Jacksonville defense that should've beat the Patriots in the playoffs if not for a blown down by contact call on a fumble recovery that would've been a scoop and score.
Why are/were these guys so successful? Great linebackers! Both are smaller than Simmons.
Von Miller...combine weight 8 lbs bigger than Simmons, one of the fiercest pass rushers in our game and will be a HOFer.
Simmons is a instinctual, intelligent, player with rare, rare, rare physical gifts. I can see him on the edge with the QB not knowing if he's going to blow past his RT or run with his TE or spy or drop into zone coverage. And he can do all of that very well, which makes him a dangerous weapon on the defense.
His tape isn't perfect. He can clean things up. But that's what you have your NFL coaches for. And he has the ability and intelligence to soak all that up and be a better player than he was in college.
He's 21 years old with his best football I'm front of him. Our defense has NFL top 5 potential if he is what I think he is, which is an offensive game plan wrecker and complete mismatch wherever you put him.
You guys are worried about Guards blocking him out of plays...well first you have to get your hands on him, and he's going to beat those guys more often than not because of his speed and quickness. He's too damn fast for these guys.
If we're at 4 and he's on the board, unless I can move down and get extra picks, he's my guy.
Jaylon Smith 6 foot 2 240. 2 inches shorter and 2 lbs heavier. Also jaylon always played linebacker. Besides being stockier it’s a mentality.
It wasn’t telvin Smith it was Myles jack.
Von Miller. 6 foot 3 250. 1 inch shorter 12 lbs heavier.
These comparisons are forced and are ridiculous. Your comparing a converted safety to a hybrid linebacker to a guy in jaylon who played the position his whole life and if not for blowing out his knee was a top 10 lock at the linebacker position. Comparing von Miller to Simmons!!! Holy shit. Von Miller has heavy hands is fast as hell and has much more flexibility in his bend and dip then Simmons could dream about not to mention he’s shorter and 12 lbs heavier. Look at their lower bodies. Stop focusing on his weight. Look at his frame and size and tell me if that will hold up rushing vs NFL tackles. He doesn’t have the base to hold up anywhere near the LOS
Like many others on this board, I'm just a passionate fan who wants to see things with my own eyes. There are a ton of lazy analysts and talking heads out there spouting bullshit about players. I have tremendous respect for the professionals that are actually very serious about their craft and really take the time to study the players like Sy56. The work he does to inform and educate us is invaluable.
1. People saying Simmons plays and feels more natural at safety are right. Its clear he's still feeling his way at the position and the vibe that he's sometimes going through the motions or not playing as aggressively may be a product of this. Didn't realize he's literally only taken reps as a linebacker for two seasons at Clemson. He played wr and free safety in high school. His progression to becoming one of the best college players in the country is much more impressive in this context. After seeing a larger number of his reps I realized that when he was confident about what was in front of him you started seeing some of those alpha traits emerge.
2. My opinion that Simmons hates contact was overstated in my OP and I retract some of what I felt earlier. Clemson has an extremely physical defense, one of the most physical in the country. Simmons was surrounded by playmakers that thrive on physical aggression like James Skalski, and K'von Wallace. He's not them, but his inability to fill a gap with the hair on fire approach of a Skalski was as much a product of learning to trust his instincts while reading and diagnosing things close to the line of scrimmage as a lack of desire to get dirty.
3. His physical limitations - This has been way overstated. Yeah he's tall and skinny but the guy is very big and plenty strong for a modern outside linebacker with a lot of room to grow. When he did take on full grown man size tackles and guards he was getting turned but he wasn't getting smashed. Like many have pointed out his skinny legs aren't gonna win any powerlifting championships, but he is by no means a weakling who just tucks and runs at the first sign of an oncoming blocker. What you see is a total lack of experience where he struggles to use his hands to effectively disengage from blockers at the attack point or fails to keep his eyes upfield when wading through trash. LSU game exposed his struggles on the biggest stage but this was going on all season. He'd let blockers get their hands into his body and turn him or he'd turn his head and shoulders into the blocker while attacking a side, taking himself completely out the play before it even got to him. The same lack of experience showed up when he was asked to bring pressure off the edge. He had no effective plan most of the time except to out athlete his blocker, but you started to see a viable dip and rip move emerging through the course of the season. If he could learn how to set up blockers better with his speed move and finish with an effective counter like an inside spin he could become a devastating situational pass rusher off the edge even if he's not the bendiest athlete in the world.
3. Clemson loved using him at free safety and manning the slot. He's most at home playing the deep safety role where he can comfortably see everything in front of him and run and chase the action. They'd line him up in zone schemes across from the slot receiver a lot. In the Ohio State game he was used mostly at free safety which was really frustrating to watch for someone hoping to see linebacker reps, but showed how much Venables trusted him manning the back end. It worked since he was part of a unit that effectively neutralized Ohio State's vertical attack and forced Fields to work underneath where he struggled. Simmons isn't quick footed enough to play man to man on quick twitch athletes like scat backs and slot receivers, but he's perfectly built to eliminate tight ends, and he has the recover speed to handle wideouts in zones.
4. He'll be an extremely effective weapon against the new breed of dual threat option QBs taking over the league like Lamar Jackson and Kyler Murray. Clemson used him a lot as a spy. He had arguably his best game against Louisville who had two speed QB's and ran option all game. On one these designed plays Simmons shocked Cunningham in the backfield he closed on him so fast.
5. LSU game showed he can be a really good linebacker but he's also a major work in progress who'll need time to develop. This game was like a game of two halves. In the first half up until the final drive, he showed the confidence and instincts of somebody making plays and not overthinking things. He played like an absolute stud. In the final drive of first half and a lot of the second half he looked more unsure of himself and seemed confused by some of what LSU was throwing at him. In fairness LSU runs some of the most complex blocking schemes in the country. The traps they were setting up at the line of scrimmage were more in line with what Simmons will have to face week in and week out in the NFL.
6. In conclusion I've circled around and think Simmons could turn out to be a really good pick at 4 if the Giants are patient. His game screams classic Ron Rivera or Pete Carroll pick who becomes an all pro in their system in a few years.
He fills a lot of boxes in the new more play action, spread oriented modern NFL but shouldn't be expected to be a superstar right out of the gate. The Giants defense is desperate for playmakers but he's not Chase Young or Zach Baun who have the highly developed skill sets to jump into a starting front seven and ball out on day one. He'll need a coaching staff that brings him on slowly enough to tap his potential without overwhelming him. His floor is higher as a safety in the NFL but his ceiling is higher as a linebacker. If Patrick Graham and his coaching staff develop him the right way he could go from a situational movable chess piece with plus coverage skills to one of the best linebackers in the league in three or four years. he'll be the ultimate litmus test of a coaching staff's ability to teach and motivate since the potential is sky high.
of course we may all eat our words here
but i don't think he's worthy of a top 5, if even 10.
looks like a tweener who'll be eaten up by run game.
a very high ceiling project.
most importantly is he an athlete or a football player?
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Is a form of block shedding.
Laughable. Go watch his full game tapes vs charlotte and wofford. 2 terrible football schools and Simmons was truly invisible. Why? Both teams ran run heavy offenses and Simmons spent the game on the turf. Running past blockers also means your running away from your run lane. Part of run defense is filling the gap and stacking.
He was invisible? I saw him make a tremendous INT vs Wofford. I think he only played one half of football in that game. I haven't found video of that full game tape or vs Charlotte. Where are you watching it? If you have a link or resource to share I'd appreciate it.
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Plays linebacker, pretty good at it, too.
Also, he's good against the run.
Telvin Smith who was so critical on that great Jacksonville defense that should've beat the Patriots in the playoffs if not for a blown down by contact call on a fumble recovery that would've been a scoop and score.
Why are/were these guys so successful? Great linebackers! Both are smaller than Simmons.
Von Miller...combine weight 8 lbs bigger than Simmons, one of the fiercest pass rushers in our game and will be a HOFer.
Simmons is a instinctual, intelligent, player with rare, rare, rare physical gifts. I can see him on the edge with the QB not knowing if he's going to blow past his RT or run with his TE or spy or drop into zone coverage. And he can do all of that very well, which makes him a dangerous weapon on the defense.
His tape isn't perfect. He can clean things up. But that's what you have your NFL coaches for. And he has the ability and intelligence to soak all that up and be a better player than he was in college.
He's 21 years old with his best football I'm front of him. Our defense has NFL top 5 potential if he is what I think he is, which is an offensive game plan wrecker and complete mismatch wherever you put him.
You guys are worried about Guards blocking him out of plays...well first you have to get your hands on him, and he's going to beat those guys more often than not because of his speed and quickness. He's too damn fast for these guys.
If we're at 4 and he's on the board, unless I can move down and get extra picks, he's my guy.
Jaylon Smith 6 foot 2 240. 2 inches shorter and 2 lbs heavier. Also jaylon always played linebacker. Besides being stockier it’s a mentality.
It wasn’t telvin Smith it was Myles jack.
Von Miller. 6 foot 3 250. 1 inch shorter 12 lbs heavier.
These comparisons are forced and are ridiculous. Your comparing a converted safety to a hybrid linebacker to a guy in jaylon who played the position his whole life and if not for blowing out his knee was a top 10 lock at the linebacker position. Comparing von Miller to Simmons!!! Holy shit. Von Miller has heavy hands is fast as hell and has much more flexibility in his bend and dip then Simmons could dream about not to mention he’s shorter and 12 lbs heavier. Look at their lower bodies. Stop focusing on his weight. Look at his frame and size and tell me if that will hold up rushing vs NFL tackles. He doesn’t have the base to hold up anywhere near the LOS
First of all, I said Telvin Smith and meant Telvin Smith. Anyone who knew that 2017 team knew that Telvin Smith was a huge part of that defense. He made the Pro Bowl that year, racked up over 100 tackles in just 14 games, had a few interceptions, a couple of forced fumbles, and was very good as a coverage linebacker. And his listed height/weight he played at was 6'3" 215 lbs.
Secondly, if we are comparing apples to apples, which is what I was doing, I am comparing their combine measurables, not after they've been in an NFL program for several years. Simmons is 238 lbs right now. Jaylon Smith weighed in at the combine at 6'2", 223 lbs.
So, if you are saying that Jaylon Smith was able to be as fast as he was in college and put on an additional 22 lbs in the NFL (his listed weight is 245 lbs today), then I feel pretty good that Simmons can add another 7 or 8. This is not a small guy, he has enough right now, and he will get more weight on...it just will happen because he's still growing in to that frame at only 21 years old.