and draft a cost controlled beast in Brown. Our defense would be vastly improved IMHO. I think, from what I've read, that Brown is a top 5 defensive player in this draft and would not be a reach at 4.
and draft a cost controlled beast in Brown. Our defense would be vastly improved IMHO. I think, from what I've read, that Brown is a top 5 defensive player in this draft and would not be a reach at 4.
Williams hustles each play and has missed very little time. Clowney with all World potential did very little even when paired with JJ Watt. $17 mill for 3.5 sacks.?
RE: RE: If we could get Clowney on a multi year deal at around $17M
and draft a cost controlled beast in Brown. Our defense would be vastly improved IMHO. I think, from what I've read, that Brown is a top 5 defensive player in this draft and would not be a reach at 4.
Williams hustles each play and has missed very little time. Clowney with all World potential did very little even when paired with JJ Watt. $17 mill for 3.5 sacks.?
Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
Clowney will be Mo Wilkerson 2.0 - he will quit the moment he signs that second gigantic contract . And why draft Brown when we already have 25 year old Williams ?
Forget DB and DT in this draft. OL, LB, and ER only.
I appreciate the effort and production of Golden last year, but he is nowhere near the talent of Clowney and would not have near the impact on our defense.
Clowney will be Mo Wilkerson 2.0 - he will quit the moment he signs that second gigantic contract . And why draft Brown when we already have 25 year old Williams ?
Forget DB and DT in this draft. OL, LB, and ER only.
I disagree with your take regarding Clowney and MO Wilkerson. I also think it is highly likely that we will draft DB over Edge in the draft.
Rather trade for Yannick Ngakoue, swapping 4 and 9, and get an extra 3
With Lawrence and Tomlinson already in the fold, and Brown having no speed at all, this is basically running in place, but managing to waste assets while doing so.
I know I do not write a newsletter, but there is the very real possibility that both of the above are better players, at least in 2020, than Brown.
RE: Thought it was stupid as soon as the draft Brown part
With Lawrence and Tomlinson already in the fold, and Brown having no speed at all, this is basically running in place, but managing to waste assets while doing so.
I know I do not write a newsletter, but there is the very real possibility that both of the above are better players, at least in 2020, than Brown.
Wow Bob, that's quite a take. Brown was admittedly awful at the combine, but he was an absolute beast for Auburn. I think he projects better than you surmise.
Does he make sense to build a young defense around?
That's really the question you have to answer first.
I think Clowney is the type of player you bring in when you are making a run and need another piece to push you over the top. He is not a piece to add when you are building a team with a lot of holes.
The thing about Williams is he's a very good complimentary piece at what Gettleman regards as an important position. He plays well in the sandbox. He plays a very dependable game and often has to be double teamed on the inside.
Throwing around "absolute beast" means nothing to me
5.26 needs to be explained. Dynamic inside pass rush does not come readily to mind. Definitely not a position of need unless you are getting far more than incremental improvement.
RE: What exactly is the point of bringing in Clowney
Does he make sense to build a young defense around?
That's really the question you have to answer first.
I think Clowney is the type of player you bring in when you are making a run and need another piece to push you over the top. He is not a piece to add when you are building a team with a lot of holes.
The thing about Williams is he's a very good complimentary piece at what Gettleman regards as an important position. He plays well in the sandbox. He plays a very dependable game and often has to be double teamed on the inside.
Right on about Williams. He was double teamed a lot. Watched games last year and liked how he played. He also came in week 9 only playing 8 games without knowing the NYG scheme really. The fact that so quickly he was facing double teams speaks volumes about his skillset.
Now throw in Dexter Lawrence as a 2nd year player but unfortunately everybody has to learn a new system. The only fear I have as a fan is will DG trade Tomlinson for like a round 3 pick. Really hope not honestly as it’d hurt the defensive line but who knows anymore what will occur. This draft can’t come soon enough.
Clowney will be Mo Wilkerson 2.0 - he will quit the moment he signs that second gigantic contract . And why draft Brown when we already have 25 year old Williams ?
Forget DB and DT in this draft. OL, LB, and ER only.
I disagree with your take regarding Clowney and MO Wilkerson. I also think it is highly likely that we will draft DB over Edge in the draft.
Some of you take one isolated example, an outlier like Mo Wilkerson and apply it to all these players. Mo Wilkerson and Haynenworth were shocking outliers. I think it's sad that fans go there, really. How many guys sign for big money and they just quit like that? 1 out of 100?
Yeah, that will never ever happen. I'd love to win the lottery without even paying a dollar for the ticket, but that too won't happen.
You want a good edge player, you're going to have to pay. You want crap? keep signing guys like Golden to cheap deals. See how far that takes us.
I'd just as soon let the kids develop here, draft another one, and hope for the best for one more year rather than throw money at a guy like Golden. He's a decent player but Carter and Ximines can probably be decent too. Go big or go home and wait till next year. You aren't getting Ngakoue unless you pony up a lot of picks and pay the guy like a super star player.
He comes with risk no doubt. But he's a very good player. I can see the decision to not sign him, but I think the Giants owe it to the team to try. He's one of the rare edge players who can be had without trade. They don't come around often.
Never lived up to his draft status, rarely racks up the numbers Edges are paid for, and the questions about this attitude, work ethic, and health are all still there. He is a plus run defender and had a few games where he was visible and disruptive, but it was also on a good Seahawks team with talent around him. He still disappears for long stretches.
There's also the tidbit that his asking price has dropped and still no one is making a move. Adding him now at let's say $15M for a young team full of holes doesn't accomplish much and doesn't match their timeline to be a winner. Got to think beyond 2020 as well as the season at hand.
RE: What exactly is the point of bringing in Clowney
Does he make sense to build a young defense around?
That's really the question you have to answer first.
I think Clowney is the type of player you bring in when you are making a run and need another piece to push you over the top. He is not a piece to add when you are building a team with a lot of holes.
The thing about Williams is he's a very good complimentary piece at what Gettleman regards as an important position. He plays well in the sandbox. He plays a very dependable game and often has to be double teamed on the inside.
I've seen this take a lot lately, I don't really get it. Isn't the plan here to improve? Clowney is 27 and might very well have 3 big years left in him. I think every front office in the NFL believes they can win inside of 2 years, tops. Why can't we go from terrible to good and then go from there? What's wrong with going from 4-5 wins to 8-9-10 wins and then replacing Clowney once he's off the books? this D has NO vet star power. When is it time?
Also, we've seen time and time again a team is never as good or bad as popular belief. Virtually every bad team is one or two plays away. guys, we need to fucking WIN again. Forget super bowls....my god how about winning 10 games? In no way am I saying throw caution to the wind and go for broke, but if you have a shot at a guy you think can help the team win, you have to explore it. If mgmt doesn't love Clowney, stay away. But don't ignore the guy because "we aren't ready"--that's just crazy to me. We aren't ready because we lack players. Get players.
Never lived up to his draft status, rarely racks up the numbers Edges are paid for, and the questions about this attitude, work ethic, and health are all still there. He is a plus run defender and had a few games where he was visible and disruptive, but it was also on a good Seahawks team with talent around him. He still disappears for long stretches.
There's also the tidbit that his asking price has dropped and still no one is making a move. Adding him now at let's say $15M for a young team full of holes doesn't accomplish much and doesn't match their timeline to be a winner. Got to think beyond 2020 as well as the season at hand.
Thank you. $15-$18 mill per right now is a waste of money on a player that has not lived up to what was expected of him.
Never lived up to his draft status, rarely racks up the numbers Edges are paid for, and the questions about this attitude, work ethic, and health are all still there. He is a plus run defender and had a few games where he was visible and disruptive, but it was also on a good Seahawks team with talent around him. He still disappears for long stretches.
There's also the tidbit that his asking price has dropped and still no one is making a move. Adding him now at let's say $15M for a young team full of holes doesn't accomplish much and doesn't match their timeline to be a winner. Got to think beyond 2020 as well as the season at hand.
Very fair analysis. I've not followed Clowney so I don't have any opinions to the contrary. The appeal to some, I believe, is that Clowney, even if not a perfect solution, is still good enough and young enough to address need on Edge in the short run, freeing up the team to focus on OL in the draft. And even if neither is a perfect answer, the combination of Clowney and Ol of team's choice @4 goes a way towards addressing they biggest needs.
I'm not advocating this, but I do see the appeal. Question I would have then are --If not Clowney, what is the alternative for a team so deficient in pass rush who is already losing their best pass rusher from last year. Secondly, can they afford to pass on both Clowney in FA AND OT in round 1? I am of the opinion we need to come away with a blue chip talent with our top pick, however, if we continue to pass on addressing Edge and OL with premium resources, we're going to find ourselves in the same position a year from now --too many major needs to fill in one off-season, barring us hitting a bit of luck in subsequent rounds.
Of getting Clowney. But there are ways to free up $$ to do it so you don't have to let Williams walk... and drafting Brown, on top of that seems like an excess of commitments to the DL.
I think that #4 pick is better spent on another area of need.
The draft was not moved in front of FA in the new deal. It is such a moronic way to run a franchise. Add FA's on huge contracts before being able to draft to fill holes?
If you delay it, it benefits the top and middle tiers. People will panic and overspend after the draft. Its an NFLPA NO Brainer. It's also better business. So dumb the way the NFL does its order of roster building.
Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
I'm dubious about signing a guy who has underachieved to a big contract and expecting him to perform like he did in the playoffs of a contract year.
There is no gaurantee that Brown will be better than Williams
putting the deal aside, Williams is very good DT and he's only 25. Keep him and use the draft choice for Simmons or a OT, fix those spots. Replacing Williams with Brown is at best using our #1 to tread water talent wise.
RE: What exactly is the point of bringing in Clowney
Does he make sense to build a young defense around?
That's really the question you have to answer first.
I think Clowney is the type of player you bring in when you are making a run and need another piece to push you over the top. He is not a piece to add when you are building a team with a lot of holes.
The thing about Williams is he's a very good complimentary piece at what Gettleman regards as an important position. He plays well in the sandbox. He plays a very dependable game and often has to be double teamed on the inside.
^This. The trade was stupid, but Williams is a very good player. I don't want Clowney for the reasons you cite. We are not one or even two players away.
I can't see the Giants drafting Brown unless they trade Tomlinson.
RE: There is no gaurantee that Brown will be better than Williams
putting the deal aside, Williams is very good DT and he's only 25. Keep him and use the draft choice for Simmons or a OT, fix those spots. Replacing Williams with Brown is at best using our #1 to tread water talent wise.
Look, I like Williams, I really do. But for weeks posters have screamed they like him at around $12M per and if he were to be paid at or around $17M then DG should be fired or worse. So the premise is to pay the Edge $17M (not sniffing Yannick for less than $20M) and draft a cost controlled Derek Brown. If we are going to pursue an Edge, we are going to have to pay.
Why do we have to rescind the tag on Leonard Williams
To me the reality is this team is likely to be improved, but not enough to make the playoffs in 2020. I have to make decisions for 2020, 2021, 2022, etc. I have holes everywhere which I know won't be 100% filled come training camp.
If I've set a value on a player, I'm sticking to it. Giants made him an offer and they're probably sticking to it. Fans tend to yell do something, anything, and fail to realize their team isn't the only one playing the negotiation game, and/or what the bigger picture is.
I get the appeal, but the target isn't a do or die one. I think DG realizes he can't afford anymore Solders, and doesn't want to make a Vernon-type mistake. Hopefully, he'll realize his move to acquire LW was also him overrating a player.
Whats it going to take for you all to see that Clowney is overrated.
In comment 14857105 Section331 said:
[quote] In comment 14856951 KingBlue said:
Quote:
Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
I'm dubious about signing a guy who has underachieved to a big contract and expecting him to perform like he did in the playoffs of a contract year. [uote]
In comment 14857105 Section331 said:
[quote] In comment 14856951 KingBlue said:
Quote:
Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
I'm dubious about signing a guy who has underachieved to a big contract and expecting him to perform like he did in the playoffs of a contract year. [uote]
YES. Spot on
Couldn't you claim the same about Williams,i.e., a guy who has underachieved relative to his draft position status?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If we could get Clowney on a multi year deal at around $17M
In comment 14857105 Section331 said:
[quote] In comment 14856951 KingBlue said:
Quote:
Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
I'm dubious about signing a guy who has underachieved to a big contract and expecting him to perform like he did in the playoffs of a contract year. [uote]
YES. Spot on
Couldn't you claim the same about Williams,i.e., a guy who has underachieved relative to his draft position status?
Thats the point. If you're going to rescind Williams' tag...why then are you going to waste that money on Clowney?
for Williams durability, and Clowney's lack thereof.
I agree with this. I’m honestly not a huge fan of either player. I think they were both highly overrated when drafted which has proven itself out in the early stages of their careers. They are good players, but not great. At least Williams has stayed healthy so far.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If we could get Clowney on a multi year deal at around $17M
In comment 14857105 Section331 said:
[quote] In comment 14856951 KingBlue said:
Quote:
Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
I'm dubious about signing a guy who has underachieved to a big contract and expecting him to perform like he did in the playoffs of a contract year. [uote]
YES. Spot on
Couldn't you claim the same about Williams,i.e., a guy who has underachieved relative to his draft position status?
No because Williams doesn't have the lazy/disengaged rep that CLowney does. I wasn't a fan of the trade, but he did play well. And Williams didn't have the benefit of playing next to JJ Watt.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If we could get Clowney on a multi year deal at around $17M
In comment 14857105 Section331 said:
[quote] In comment 14856951 KingBlue said:
Quote:
Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
I'm dubious about signing a guy who has underachieved to a big contract and expecting him to perform like he did in the playoffs of a contract year. [uote]
YES. Spot on
Couldn't you claim the same about Williams,i.e., a guy who has underachieved relative to his draft position status?
Thats the point. If you're going to rescind Williams' tag...why then are you going to waste that money on Clowney?
Because they play different positions and run stopping DT's are easier to replace. Especially if Brown is what many think he is...one of the best DT's to come out in years. Clowney, is as good as Williams at stopping the run and has far superior upside as a pass rusher for the same money, give or take 1M. (I acknowledge: hard take to defend based on past performance)
I forget which year it was but he was playing out of his TREE during HOU's stretch run. He was better than Watt and absolutely unblockable.
I realize he has been unable to maintain that level of play but he was the best defensive player in the league at that point. I appreciate that level of dominance.
So for those that say he is just a name, that isn't accurate. When he's healthy and focused he is a dominant football player vs. the run AND pass, a la Strahan and JPP.
I forget which year it was but he was playing out of his TREE during HOU's stretch run. He was better than Watt and absolutely unblockable.
I realize he has been unable to maintain that level of play but he was the best defensive player in the league at that point. I appreciate that level of dominance.
So for those that say he is just a name, that isn't accurate. When he's healthy and focused he is a dominant football player vs. the run AND pass, a la Strahan and JPP.
I don’t think it’s an issue of skill with Clowney. There’s a reason he was so highly regarded coming out of high school and college. It’s more of a consistency factor with him, whether that’s lack of interest, intelligence, I have no idea.
Clowney was never the best defensive player in the league, and never dominant for long stretches. Dominant means he's blowing up the run, he's sacking the QB, he's forcing turnovers and wreaking havoc. He flashes at times, he's learned that hustle is important, he is disruptive and plays the run well, but rarely gets to the QB, and he disappears.
Throw in all the well-known questions on his work ethic, health, etc, and tell me he's really worth the investment. It doesn't make sense.
i get your hesitance with Clowney, I really do. Bottom line is, the defense needs good football players. We don't have a lot of them. Signing Clowney for a year, or even two, with the way our cap is structured right now, would be smart IMO. He had a down year last year. Look at his 17 and 18 seasons. That's a near elite level.
People love Yannick on this board. Clowney at his best is better.
i think there's a difference between saying "the league doesn't value" Clowney vs saying they want him at a fair price. A lot of teams would want Clowney, they obviously aren't willing to pay what he wants. Huge difference.
He's being trying to trade Tomlinson for awhile. The guy isn't a difference maker, and the second pro contract is coming due.
Do you think Tomlinson could be traded on draft day? I assume if he's been trying to do so, then the price has just been too low. What would he accept?
He's being trying to trade Tomlinson for awhile. The guy isn't a difference maker, and the second pro contract is coming due.
Do you think Tomlinson could be traded on draft day? I assume if he's been trying to do so, then the price has just been too low. What would he accept?
Haven't heard any details on him. My guess is you're looking at maybe getting a #5 for him. Maybe DG could find a team with a promising OT to swap.
i think there's a difference between saying "the league doesn't value" Clowney vs saying they want him at a fair price. A lot of teams would want Clowney, they obviously aren't willing to pay what he wants. Huge difference.
How much did the league value him when he got traded in August? Almost the exact same price as a comp pick. At the time I (and many others probably) were surprised the price was so low for a player who could be "the final piece" for a contender. Now he has no market as a UFA.
I think it's fair to say the league values him wildly differently than both how he values himself as well as casual observers.
He's being trying to trade Tomlinson for awhile. The guy isn't a difference maker, and the second pro contract is coming due.
Do you think Tomlinson could be traded on draft day? I assume if he's been trying to do so, then the price has just been too low. What would he accept?
Haven't heard any details on him. My guess is you're looking at maybe getting a #5 for him. Maybe DG could find a team with a promising OT to swap.
That's too low. I can't see trading Tomlinson for a #5. I'd need more.
I forget which year it was but he was playing out of his TREE during HOU's stretch run. He was better than Watt and absolutely unblockable.
I realize he has been unable to maintain that level of play but he was the best defensive player in the league at that point. I appreciate that level of dominance.
So for those that say he is just a name, that isn't accurate. When he's healthy and focused he is a dominant football player vs. the run AND pass, a la Strahan and JPP.
It is accurate. Look, I don't care how talented you are - the best ability is availability. The fact that you even need to caveat with "when he's healthy and focused" should speak volumes, and its the reason he's still sitting out there on the open market. Teams don't want to pay him all that money and just *hope* he finally decides to turn it on for 16 games straight at age 27.
If you want to dump Leonard, I get it. But you don't then go and sign another underachiever at essentially the same price. Thats ridiculous.
I'd much rather them just bring back Golden at about half the investment.
He's being trying to trade Tomlinson for awhile. The guy isn't a difference maker, and the second pro contract is coming due.
Do you think Tomlinson could be traded on draft day? I assume if he's been trying to do so, then the price has just been too low. What would he accept?
Haven't heard any details on him. My guess is you're looking at maybe getting a #5 for him. Maybe DG could find a team with a promising OT to swap.
That's too low. I can't see trading Tomlinson for a #5. I'd need more.
Calais Campbell brought a #5, and he's a far superior player, despite his advanced age.
He's being trying to trade Tomlinson for awhile. The guy isn't a difference maker, and the second pro contract is coming due.
Do you think Tomlinson could be traded on draft day? I assume if he's been trying to do so, then the price has just been too low. What would he accept?
Haven't heard any details on him. My guess is you're looking at maybe getting a #5 for him. Maybe DG could find a team with a promising OT to swap.
That's too low. I can't see trading Tomlinson for a #5. I'd need more.
Calais Campbell brought a #5, and he's a far superior player, despite his advanced age.
Campbell is older as you note. I think he problem as you also state is that Tomlinson will be a FA next year, and likely want a big deal. So how much will teams pay for what amounts to a one year rental? It's like a smaller version of trading for Williams. Maybe a #4 and a player like a promising OL. Of course, teams probably don't want to part with anyone who looks like they can play, especially in that position group. My guess is that Tomlinson stays a Giant.
worst thing this team could do right now is take an adequate to average OT at #4. If one of these guys is a an immediate plug and play RT with the great chance to kick over to LT and thrive, I'm all for it. But the draft is about BPA when the need is also there.
If Simmons or Brown is far and away the superior player to any of the OL, the choice is pretty clear.
I watch the guy on film and look at all his numbers. Very good football player. Not as good as Williams, but good enough to make the trade a head scratcher.
This will be his 3rd DC - there's a lot to be said for good coaching and stability.
Not a difference maker but he just started playing next to a solid DT, NT. Prior to that, he had minimal quality help.
The B. J. Hill fall-off makes me wonder how much coaching has been a major issue
Haven't heard any details on him. My guess is you're looking at maybe getting a #5 for him. Maybe DG could find a team with a promising OT to swap.
That's too low. I can't see trading Tomlinson for a #5. I'd need more.
If the Tomlinson is not in the team's plans on a second contract at any price, then a #5 is not too low. He doesn't need to be moved in the draft. We can use him and entertain trades up to the trade deadline. Once that passes, then we let him walk. Of course, the anti-DG brigade will be out in force wondering why we didn't trade Tomlinson for a bag of donuts.
I watch the guy on film and look at all his numbers. Very good football player. Not as good as Williams, but good enough to make the trade a head scratcher.
This will be his 3rd DC - there's a lot to be said for good coaching and stability.
Not a difference maker but he just started playing next to a solid DT, NT. Prior to that, he had minimal quality help.
The B. J. Hill fall-off makes me wonder how much coaching has been a major issue
I think it comes down to dollars and what DT feels he can attract on the open market. At time goes on, NYG won't be able to keep all the DL on second contracts, so who goes.
for a 5th rounder? Those don’t seem to go together.
If value on Tomlinson is only a 5 then shouldn’t be that worried as to his contract demands.
You can't just equivocate the draft value with contract demands. Calais fetched a 5th. Even though he is older, he 3x the player Tomlinson is. Calais was scheduled to earn $15M. With the trade to Baltimore, they reworked the deal (essentially converting $10M into a signing bonus with a $5M salary). He still gets $15M this year and next year has a $10M salary. Tomlinson not being the in team's plans can be as simple as the Stink of Jerry. Get what you can and move on.
RE: Screw Clowney I've never seen a player more overhyped...
2017 and 2018 years, one of the more productive defensive players in football. 2017, 2nd in the NFL in TFL. 2018, 11th in the NFL in TFL. How is that not production? People love to rag on Clowney, dude is a beast at his best.
Good points but not compelling particularly with LW on one year gig
But, if I had to bet, I don't think he gets a second contract.
I'd be surprised. He's a Reese tenure holdover, and I wouldn't say he's distinguished himself. DG so far drafted larger, longer DL who can play in multiple fronts, whereas Tomlinson is basically a template 4-3 DT.
Physically frame and length wise he and BJ Hill are twins. 6'3"/311#/33" arms. Very similar in that regard. Personally I think Tomlinson played well last season. Certainly better than Hill.
New regime and all so it's difficult to predict how the coaches will see it. I'll wait to see how these guys are used before guessing about him coming back or not.
I forget which year it was but he was playing out of his TREE during HOU's stretch run. He was better than Watt and absolutely unblockable.
I realize he has been unable to maintain that level of play but he was the best defensive player in the league at that point. I appreciate that level of dominance.
So for those that say he is just a name, that isn't accurate. When he's healthy and focused he is a dominant football player vs. the run AND pass, a la Strahan and JPP.
So one year makes him some star? He was the # 1 HS recruit. He was so much more talented than anyone else is college do news the first round 1 pick. He’s played one stretch run like that guy. One.
He’s s exactly a big name who has never come close to his talent or rep
You acknowledge that he did have a stretch of play at that level and then said he NEVER played at that level. My only point was that he absolutely had reached a dominant level of play in the NFL. For whatever reason that was (coaching, health, head in the game) I don't know.
Lots of guys are like that - JPP in 2011, Collins in 16. Then we don't see it again. Hard to explain.
This would be a big one
This would be a big one
Hasn't admitted a mistake? How many FAs did he cut quickly? Omameh, to name one...
Williams hustles each play and has missed very little time. Clowney with all World potential did very little even when paired with JJ Watt. $17 mill for 3.5 sacks.?
Quote:
and draft a cost controlled beast in Brown. Our defense would be vastly improved IMHO. I think, from what I've read, that Brown is a top 5 defensive player in this draft and would not be a reach at 4.
Williams hustles each play and has missed very little time. Clowney with all World potential did very little even when paired with JJ Watt. $17 mill for 3.5 sacks.?
Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
Forget DB and DT in this draft. OL, LB, and ER only.
Quote:
Which he has done in the past.
This would be a big one
Hasn't admitted a mistake? How many FAs did he cut quickly? Omameh, to name one...
so true, and he should then compuond it by commiting to Clowney? sounds like throwing good $$ after bad.
Forget DB and DT in this draft. OL, LB, and ER only.
I disagree with your take regarding Clowney and MO Wilkerson. I also think it is highly likely that we will draft DB over Edge in the draft.
I know I do not write a newsletter, but there is the very real possibility that both of the above are better players, at least in 2020, than Brown.
I know I do not write a newsletter, but there is the very real possibility that both of the above are better players, at least in 2020, than Brown.
Wow Bob, that's quite a take. Brown was admittedly awful at the combine, but he was an absolute beast for Auburn. I think he projects better than you surmise.
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Which he has done in the past.
This would be a big one
Hasn't admitted a mistake? How many FAs did he cut quickly? Omameh, to name one...
You may want to read Joey's post again.
Does he make sense to build a young defense around?
That's really the question you have to answer first.
I think Clowney is the type of player you bring in when you are making a run and need another piece to push you over the top. He is not a piece to add when you are building a team with a lot of holes.
The thing about Williams is he's a very good complimentary piece at what Gettleman regards as an important position. He plays well in the sandbox. He plays a very dependable game and often has to be double teamed on the inside.
5.26 needs to be explained. Dynamic inside pass rush does not come readily to mind. Definitely not a position of need unless you are getting far more than incremental improvement.
Does he make sense to build a young defense around?
That's really the question you have to answer first.
I think Clowney is the type of player you bring in when you are making a run and need another piece to push you over the top. He is not a piece to add when you are building a team with a lot of holes.
The thing about Williams is he's a very good complimentary piece at what Gettleman regards as an important position. He plays well in the sandbox. He plays a very dependable game and often has to be double teamed on the inside.
Right on about Williams. He was double teamed a lot. Watched games last year and liked how he played. He also came in week 9 only playing 8 games without knowing the NYG scheme really. The fact that so quickly he was facing double teams speaks volumes about his skillset.
Now throw in Dexter Lawrence as a 2nd year player but unfortunately everybody has to learn a new system. The only fear I have as a fan is will DG trade Tomlinson for like a round 3 pick. Really hope not honestly as it’d hurt the defensive line but who knows anymore what will occur. This draft can’t come soon enough.
You heard something?
I know this makes DG look bad, but it will make him look good if he makes this move.
It's Isiah Simmons or the offensive line.
End of.
Yannick / Brown / Lawerence / Williams / and 1 of Ximines, Carter or Fackrell... would be a handful for any OL/QB to deal with...
Yannick / Brown / Lawerence / Williams / and 1 of Ximines, Carter or Fackrell... would be a handful for any OL/QB to deal with...
I'd remove Williams, pay Clowney...
Yannick / Brown / Lawerence / Williams / and 1 of Ximines, Carter or Fackrell... would be a handful for any OL/QB to deal with...
See my post in the "Giants interest Yannick" thread that I posted to this morning. Yannick has lit the match that will burn the Jaguars House down.
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Clowney will be Mo Wilkerson 2.0 - he will quit the moment he signs that second gigantic contract . And why draft Brown when we already have 25 year old Williams ?
Forget DB and DT in this draft. OL, LB, and ER only.
I disagree with your take regarding Clowney and MO Wilkerson. I also think it is highly likely that we will draft DB over Edge in the draft.
Some of you take one isolated example, an outlier like Mo Wilkerson and apply it to all these players. Mo Wilkerson and Haynenworth were shocking outliers. I think it's sad that fans go there, really. How many guys sign for big money and they just quit like that? 1 out of 100?
gimme a break.
Yeah, that will never ever happen. I'd love to win the lottery without even paying a dollar for the ticket, but that too won't happen.
You want a good edge player, you're going to have to pay. You want crap? keep signing guys like Golden to cheap deals. See how far that takes us.
I'd just as soon let the kids develop here, draft another one, and hope for the best for one more year rather than throw money at a guy like Golden. He's a decent player but Carter and Ximines can probably be decent too. Go big or go home and wait till next year. You aren't getting Ngakoue unless you pony up a lot of picks and pay the guy like a super star player.
He comes with risk no doubt. But he's a very good player. I can see the decision to not sign him, but I think the Giants owe it to the team to try. He's one of the rare edge players who can be had without trade. They don't come around often.
There's also the tidbit that his asking price has dropped and still no one is making a move. Adding him now at let's say $15M for a young team full of holes doesn't accomplish much and doesn't match their timeline to be a winner. Got to think beyond 2020 as well as the season at hand.
Does he make sense to build a young defense around?
That's really the question you have to answer first.
I think Clowney is the type of player you bring in when you are making a run and need another piece to push you over the top. He is not a piece to add when you are building a team with a lot of holes.
The thing about Williams is he's a very good complimentary piece at what Gettleman regards as an important position. He plays well in the sandbox. He plays a very dependable game and often has to be double teamed on the inside.
I've seen this take a lot lately, I don't really get it. Isn't the plan here to improve? Clowney is 27 and might very well have 3 big years left in him. I think every front office in the NFL believes they can win inside of 2 years, tops. Why can't we go from terrible to good and then go from there? What's wrong with going from 4-5 wins to 8-9-10 wins and then replacing Clowney once he's off the books? this D has NO vet star power. When is it time?
Also, we've seen time and time again a team is never as good or bad as popular belief. Virtually every bad team is one or two plays away. guys, we need to fucking WIN again. Forget super bowls....my god how about winning 10 games? In no way am I saying throw caution to the wind and go for broke, but if you have a shot at a guy you think can help the team win, you have to explore it. If mgmt doesn't love Clowney, stay away. But don't ignore the guy because "we aren't ready"--that's just crazy to me. We aren't ready because we lack players. Get players.
There's also the tidbit that his asking price has dropped and still no one is making a move. Adding him now at let's say $15M for a young team full of holes doesn't accomplish much and doesn't match their timeline to be a winner. Got to think beyond 2020 as well as the season at hand.
Thank you. $15-$18 mill per right now is a waste of money on a player that has not lived up to what was expected of him.
There's also the tidbit that his asking price has dropped and still no one is making a move. Adding him now at let's say $15M for a young team full of holes doesn't accomplish much and doesn't match their timeline to be a winner. Got to think beyond 2020 as well as the season at hand.
I'm not advocating this, but I do see the appeal. Question I would have then are --If not Clowney, what is the alternative for a team so deficient in pass rush who is already losing their best pass rusher from last year. Secondly, can they afford to pass on both Clowney in FA AND OT in round 1? I am of the opinion we need to come away with a blue chip talent with our top pick, however, if we continue to pass on addressing Edge and OL with premium resources, we're going to find ourselves in the same position a year from now --too many major needs to fill in one off-season, barring us hitting a bit of luck in subsequent rounds.
With that said, he remains unsigned.
I think that #4 pick is better spent on another area of need.
If you delay it, it benefits the top and middle tiers. People will panic and overspend after the draft. Its an NFLPA NO Brainer. It's also better business. So dumb the way the NFL does its order of roster building.
Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
I'm dubious about signing a guy who has underachieved to a big contract and expecting him to perform like he did in the playoffs of a contract year.
Does he make sense to build a young defense around?
That's really the question you have to answer first.
I think Clowney is the type of player you bring in when you are making a run and need another piece to push you over the top. He is not a piece to add when you are building a team with a lot of holes.
The thing about Williams is he's a very good complimentary piece at what Gettleman regards as an important position. He plays well in the sandbox. He plays a very dependable game and often has to be double teamed on the inside.
^This. The trade was stupid, but Williams is a very good player. I don't want Clowney for the reasons you cite. We are not one or even two players away.
I can't see the Giants drafting Brown unless they trade Tomlinson.
Look, I like Williams, I really do. But for weeks posters have screamed they like him at around $12M per and if he were to be paid at or around $17M then DG should be fired or worse. So the premise is to pay the Edge $17M (not sniffing Yannick for less than $20M) and draft a cost controlled Derek Brown. If we are going to pursue an Edge, we are going to have to pay.
You just take him,and than you'll get a big smile on you're face.
If I've set a value on a player, I'm sticking to it. Giants made him an offer and they're probably sticking to it. Fans tend to yell do something, anything, and fail to realize their team isn't the only one playing the negotiation game, and/or what the bigger picture is.
I get the appeal, but the target isn't a do or die one. I think DG realizes he can't afford anymore Solders, and doesn't want to make a Vernon-type mistake. Hopefully, he'll realize his move to acquire LW was also him overrating a player.
His level of play and impact on a game by game basis, factoring in individual talent and availability, is not that far off from Leonard Williams.
[quote] In comment 14856951 KingBlue said:
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Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
I'm dubious about signing a guy who has underachieved to a big contract and expecting him to perform like he did in the playoffs of a contract year. [uote]
YES. Spot on
[quote] In comment 14856951 KingBlue said:
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Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
I'm dubious about signing a guy who has underachieved to a big contract and expecting him to perform like he did in the playoffs of a contract year. [uote]
YES. Spot on
Couldn't you claim the same about Williams,i.e., a guy who has underachieved relative to his draft position status?
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In comment 14857105 Section331 said:
[quote] In comment 14856951 KingBlue said:
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Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
I'm dubious about signing a guy who has underachieved to a big contract and expecting him to perform like he did in the playoffs of a contract year. [uote]
YES. Spot on
Couldn't you claim the same about Williams,i.e., a guy who has underachieved relative to his draft position status?
Thats the point. If you're going to rescind Williams' tag...why then are you going to waste that money on Clowney?
I agree with this. I’m honestly not a huge fan of either player. I think they were both highly overrated when drafted which has proven itself out in the early stages of their careers. They are good players, but not great. At least Williams has stayed healthy so far.
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In comment 14857105 Section331 said:
[quote] In comment 14856951 KingBlue said:
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Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
I'm dubious about signing a guy who has underachieved to a big contract and expecting him to perform like he did in the playoffs of a contract year. [uote]
YES. Spot on
Couldn't you claim the same about Williams,i.e., a guy who has underachieved relative to his draft position status?
No because Williams doesn't have the lazy/disengaged rep that CLowney does. I wasn't a fan of the trade, but he did play well. And Williams didn't have the benefit of playing next to JJ Watt.
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In comment 14857184 Victor in CT said:
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In comment 14857105 Section331 said:
[quote] In comment 14856951 KingBlue said:
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Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
I'm dubious about signing a guy who has underachieved to a big contract and expecting him to perform like he did in the playoffs of a contract year. [uote]
YES. Spot on
Couldn't you claim the same about Williams,i.e., a guy who has underachieved relative to his draft position status?
Thats the point. If you're going to rescind Williams' tag...why then are you going to waste that money on Clowney?
Because they play different positions and run stopping DT's are easier to replace. Especially if Brown is what many think he is...one of the best DT's to come out in years. Clowney, is as good as Williams at stopping the run and has far superior upside as a pass rusher for the same money, give or take 1M. (I acknowledge: hard take to defend based on past performance)
I realize he has been unable to maintain that level of play but he was the best defensive player in the league at that point. I appreciate that level of dominance.
So for those that say he is just a name, that isn't accurate. When he's healthy and focused he is a dominant football player vs. the run AND pass, a la Strahan and JPP.
He's being trying to trade Tomlinson for awhile. The guy isn't a difference maker, and the second pro contract is coming due.
I realize he has been unable to maintain that level of play but he was the best defensive player in the league at that point. I appreciate that level of dominance.
So for those that say he is just a name, that isn't accurate. When he's healthy and focused he is a dominant football player vs. the run AND pass, a la Strahan and JPP.
I don’t think it’s an issue of skill with Clowney. There’s a reason he was so highly regarded coming out of high school and college. It’s more of a consistency factor with him, whether that’s lack of interest, intelligence, I have no idea.
Throw in all the well-known questions on his work ethic, health, etc, and tell me he's really worth the investment. It doesn't make sense.
People love Yannick on this board. Clowney at his best is better.
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Overrating Williams and underrating Tomlinson
He's being trying to trade Tomlinson for awhile. The guy isn't a difference maker, and the second pro contract is coming due.
Do you think Tomlinson could be traded on draft day? I assume if he's been trying to do so, then the price has just been too low. What would he accept?
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In comment 14857224 bc4life said:
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Overrating Williams and underrating Tomlinson
He's being trying to trade Tomlinson for awhile. The guy isn't a difference maker, and the second pro contract is coming due.
Do you think Tomlinson could be traded on draft day? I assume if he's been trying to do so, then the price has just been too low. What would he accept?
Haven't heard any details on him. My guess is you're looking at maybe getting a #5 for him. Maybe DG could find a team with a promising OT to swap.
How much did the league value him when he got traded in August? Almost the exact same price as a comp pick. At the time I (and many others probably) were surprised the price was so low for a player who could be "the final piece" for a contender. Now he has no market as a UFA.
I think it's fair to say the league values him wildly differently than both how he values himself as well as casual observers.
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In comment 14857275 JonC said:
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In comment 14857224 bc4life said:
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Overrating Williams and underrating Tomlinson
He's being trying to trade Tomlinson for awhile. The guy isn't a difference maker, and the second pro contract is coming due.
Do you think Tomlinson could be traded on draft day? I assume if he's been trying to do so, then the price has just been too low. What would he accept?
Haven't heard any details on him. My guess is you're looking at maybe getting a #5 for him. Maybe DG could find a team with a promising OT to swap.
That's too low. I can't see trading Tomlinson for a #5. I'd need more.
I realize he has been unable to maintain that level of play but he was the best defensive player in the league at that point. I appreciate that level of dominance.
So for those that say he is just a name, that isn't accurate. When he's healthy and focused he is a dominant football player vs. the run AND pass, a la Strahan and JPP.
It is accurate. Look, I don't care how talented you are - the best ability is availability. The fact that you even need to caveat with "when he's healthy and focused" should speak volumes, and its the reason he's still sitting out there on the open market. Teams don't want to pay him all that money and just *hope* he finally decides to turn it on for 16 games straight at age 27.
If you want to dump Leonard, I get it. But you don't then go and sign another underachiever at essentially the same price. Thats ridiculous.
I'd much rather them just bring back Golden at about half the investment.
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In comment 14857309 AcidTest said:
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In comment 14857275 JonC said:
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In comment 14857224 bc4life said:
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Overrating Williams and underrating Tomlinson
He's being trying to trade Tomlinson for awhile. The guy isn't a difference maker, and the second pro contract is coming due.
Do you think Tomlinson could be traded on draft day? I assume if he's been trying to do so, then the price has just been too low. What would he accept?
Haven't heard any details on him. My guess is you're looking at maybe getting a #5 for him. Maybe DG could find a team with a promising OT to swap.
That's too low. I can't see trading Tomlinson for a #5. I'd need more.
Calais Campbell brought a #5, and he's a far superior player, despite his advanced age.
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In comment 14857311 JonC said:
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In comment 14857309 AcidTest said:
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In comment 14857275 JonC said:
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In comment 14857224 bc4life said:
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Overrating Williams and underrating Tomlinson
He's being trying to trade Tomlinson for awhile. The guy isn't a difference maker, and the second pro contract is coming due.
Do you think Tomlinson could be traded on draft day? I assume if he's been trying to do so, then the price has just been too low. What would he accept?
Haven't heard any details on him. My guess is you're looking at maybe getting a #5 for him. Maybe DG could find a team with a promising OT to swap.
That's too low. I can't see trading Tomlinson for a #5. I'd need more.
Calais Campbell brought a #5, and he's a far superior player, despite his advanced age.
Campbell is older as you note. I think he problem as you also state is that Tomlinson will be a FA next year, and likely want a big deal. So how much will teams pay for what amounts to a one year rental? It's like a smaller version of trading for Williams. Maybe a #4 and a player like a promising OL. Of course, teams probably don't want to part with anyone who looks like they can play, especially in that position group. My guess is that Tomlinson stays a Giant.
Pretty much.
Everyone wants to upgrade the offensive line but no one wants to make the necessary investment.
If Simmons or Brown is far and away the superior player to any of the OL, the choice is pretty clear.
This will be his 3rd DC - there's a lot to be said for good coaching and stability.
Not a difference maker but he just started playing next to a solid DT, NT. Prior to that, he had minimal quality help.
The B. J. Hill fall-off makes me wonder how much coaching has been a major issue
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Haven't heard any details on him. My guess is you're looking at maybe getting a #5 for him. Maybe DG could find a team with a promising OT to swap.
That's too low. I can't see trading Tomlinson for a #5. I'd need more.
If the Tomlinson is not in the team's plans on a second contract at any price, then a #5 is not too low. He doesn't need to be moved in the draft. We can use him and entertain trades up to the trade deadline. Once that passes, then we let him walk. Of course, the anti-DG brigade will be out in force wondering why we didn't trade Tomlinson for a bag of donuts.
This will be his 3rd DC - there's a lot to be said for good coaching and stability.
Not a difference maker but he just started playing next to a solid DT, NT. Prior to that, he had minimal quality help.
The B. J. Hill fall-off makes me wonder how much coaching has been a major issue
I think it comes down to dollars and what DT feels he can attract on the open market. At time goes on, NYG won't be able to keep all the DL on second contracts, so who goes.
If value on Tomlinson is only a 5 then shouldn’t be that worried as to his contract demands.
If value on Tomlinson is only a 5 then shouldn’t be that worried as to his contract demands.
You can't just equivocate the draft value with contract demands. Calais fetched a 5th. Even though he is older, he 3x the player Tomlinson is. Calais was scheduled to earn $15M. With the trade to Baltimore, they reworked the deal (essentially converting $10M into a signing bonus with a $5M salary). He still gets $15M this year and next year has a $10M salary. Tomlinson not being the in team's plans can be as simple as the Stink of Jerry. Get what you can and move on.
2017 and 2018 years, one of the more productive defensive players in football. 2017, 2nd in the NFL in TFL. 2018, 11th in the NFL in TFL. How is that not production? People love to rag on Clowney, dude is a beast at his best.
I'd be surprised. He's a Reese tenure holdover, and I wouldn't say he's distinguished himself. DG so far drafted larger, longer DL who can play in multiple fronts, whereas Tomlinson is basically a template 4-3 DT.
New regime and all so it's difficult to predict how the coaches will see it. I'll wait to see how these guys are used before guessing about him coming back or not.
I realize he has been unable to maintain that level of play but he was the best defensive player in the league at that point. I appreciate that level of dominance.
So for those that say he is just a name, that isn't accurate. When he's healthy and focused he is a dominant football player vs. the run AND pass, a la Strahan and JPP.
So one year makes him some star? He was the # 1 HS recruit. He was so much more talented than anyone else is college do news the first round 1 pick. He’s played one stretch run like that guy. One.
He’s s exactly a big name who has never come close to his talent or rep
You acknowledge that he did have a stretch of play at that level and then said he NEVER played at that level. My only point was that he absolutely had reached a dominant level of play in the NFL. For whatever reason that was (coaching, health, head in the game) I don't know.
Lots of guys are like that - JPP in 2011, Collins in 16. Then we don't see it again. Hard to explain.