and draft a cost controlled beast in Brown. Our defense would be vastly improved IMHO. I think, from what I've read, that Brown is a top 5 defensive player in this draft and would not be a reach at 4.
and draft a cost controlled beast in Brown. Our defense would be vastly improved IMHO. I think, from what I've read, that Brown is a top 5 defensive player in this draft and would not be a reach at 4.
Williams hustles each play and has missed very little time. Clowney with all World potential did very little even when paired with JJ Watt. $17 mill for 3.5 sacks.?
RE: RE: If we could get Clowney on a multi year deal at around $17M
and draft a cost controlled beast in Brown. Our defense would be vastly improved IMHO. I think, from what I've read, that Brown is a top 5 defensive player in this draft and would not be a reach at 4.
Williams hustles each play and has missed very little time. Clowney with all World potential did very little even when paired with JJ Watt. $17 mill for 3.5 sacks.?
Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
Clowney will be Mo Wilkerson 2.0 - he will quit the moment he signs that second gigantic contract . And why draft Brown when we already have 25 year old Williams ?
Forget DB and DT in this draft. OL, LB, and ER only.
I appreciate the effort and production of Golden last year, but he is nowhere near the talent of Clowney and would not have near the impact on our defense.
Clowney will be Mo Wilkerson 2.0 - he will quit the moment he signs that second gigantic contract . And why draft Brown when we already have 25 year old Williams ?
Forget DB and DT in this draft. OL, LB, and ER only.
I disagree with your take regarding Clowney and MO Wilkerson. I also think it is highly likely that we will draft DB over Edge in the draft.
Rather trade for Yannick Ngakoue, swapping 4 and 9, and get an extra 3
With Lawrence and Tomlinson already in the fold, and Brown having no speed at all, this is basically running in place, but managing to waste assets while doing so.
I know I do not write a newsletter, but there is the very real possibility that both of the above are better players, at least in 2020, than Brown.
RE: Thought it was stupid as soon as the draft Brown part
With Lawrence and Tomlinson already in the fold, and Brown having no speed at all, this is basically running in place, but managing to waste assets while doing so.
I know I do not write a newsletter, but there is the very real possibility that both of the above are better players, at least in 2020, than Brown.
Wow Bob, that's quite a take. Brown was admittedly awful at the combine, but he was an absolute beast for Auburn. I think he projects better than you surmise.
Does he make sense to build a young defense around?
That's really the question you have to answer first.
I think Clowney is the type of player you bring in when you are making a run and need another piece to push you over the top. He is not a piece to add when you are building a team with a lot of holes.
The thing about Williams is he's a very good complimentary piece at what Gettleman regards as an important position. He plays well in the sandbox. He plays a very dependable game and often has to be double teamed on the inside.
Throwing around "absolute beast" means nothing to me
5.26 needs to be explained. Dynamic inside pass rush does not come readily to mind. Definitely not a position of need unless you are getting far more than incremental improvement.
RE: What exactly is the point of bringing in Clowney
Does he make sense to build a young defense around?
That's really the question you have to answer first.
I think Clowney is the type of player you bring in when you are making a run and need another piece to push you over the top. He is not a piece to add when you are building a team with a lot of holes.
The thing about Williams is he's a very good complimentary piece at what Gettleman regards as an important position. He plays well in the sandbox. He plays a very dependable game and often has to be double teamed on the inside.
Right on about Williams. He was double teamed a lot. Watched games last year and liked how he played. He also came in week 9 only playing 8 games without knowing the NYG scheme really. The fact that so quickly he was facing double teams speaks volumes about his skillset.
Now throw in Dexter Lawrence as a 2nd year player but unfortunately everybody has to learn a new system. The only fear I have as a fan is will DG trade Tomlinson for like a round 3 pick. Really hope not honestly as it’d hurt the defensive line but who knows anymore what will occur. This draft can’t come soon enough.
Clowney will be Mo Wilkerson 2.0 - he will quit the moment he signs that second gigantic contract . And why draft Brown when we already have 25 year old Williams ?
Forget DB and DT in this draft. OL, LB, and ER only.
I disagree with your take regarding Clowney and MO Wilkerson. I also think it is highly likely that we will draft DB over Edge in the draft.
Some of you take one isolated example, an outlier like Mo Wilkerson and apply it to all these players. Mo Wilkerson and Haynenworth were shocking outliers. I think it's sad that fans go there, really. How many guys sign for big money and they just quit like that? 1 out of 100?
Yeah, that will never ever happen. I'd love to win the lottery without even paying a dollar for the ticket, but that too won't happen.
You want a good edge player, you're going to have to pay. You want crap? keep signing guys like Golden to cheap deals. See how far that takes us.
I'd just as soon let the kids develop here, draft another one, and hope for the best for one more year rather than throw money at a guy like Golden. He's a decent player but Carter and Ximines can probably be decent too. Go big or go home and wait till next year. You aren't getting Ngakoue unless you pony up a lot of picks and pay the guy like a super star player.
He comes with risk no doubt. But he's a very good player. I can see the decision to not sign him, but I think the Giants owe it to the team to try. He's one of the rare edge players who can be had without trade. They don't come around often.
Never lived up to his draft status, rarely racks up the numbers Edges are paid for, and the questions about this attitude, work ethic, and health are all still there. He is a plus run defender and had a few games where he was visible and disruptive, but it was also on a good Seahawks team with talent around him. He still disappears for long stretches.
There's also the tidbit that his asking price has dropped and still no one is making a move. Adding him now at let's say $15M for a young team full of holes doesn't accomplish much and doesn't match their timeline to be a winner. Got to think beyond 2020 as well as the season at hand.
RE: What exactly is the point of bringing in Clowney
Does he make sense to build a young defense around?
That's really the question you have to answer first.
I think Clowney is the type of player you bring in when you are making a run and need another piece to push you over the top. He is not a piece to add when you are building a team with a lot of holes.
The thing about Williams is he's a very good complimentary piece at what Gettleman regards as an important position. He plays well in the sandbox. He plays a very dependable game and often has to be double teamed on the inside.
I've seen this take a lot lately, I don't really get it. Isn't the plan here to improve? Clowney is 27 and might very well have 3 big years left in him. I think every front office in the NFL believes they can win inside of 2 years, tops. Why can't we go from terrible to good and then go from there? What's wrong with going from 4-5 wins to 8-9-10 wins and then replacing Clowney once he's off the books? this D has NO vet star power. When is it time?
Also, we've seen time and time again a team is never as good or bad as popular belief. Virtually every bad team is one or two plays away. guys, we need to fucking WIN again. Forget super bowls....my god how about winning 10 games? In no way am I saying throw caution to the wind and go for broke, but if you have a shot at a guy you think can help the team win, you have to explore it. If mgmt doesn't love Clowney, stay away. But don't ignore the guy because "we aren't ready"--that's just crazy to me. We aren't ready because we lack players. Get players.
Never lived up to his draft status, rarely racks up the numbers Edges are paid for, and the questions about this attitude, work ethic, and health are all still there. He is a plus run defender and had a few games where he was visible and disruptive, but it was also on a good Seahawks team with talent around him. He still disappears for long stretches.
There's also the tidbit that his asking price has dropped and still no one is making a move. Adding him now at let's say $15M for a young team full of holes doesn't accomplish much and doesn't match their timeline to be a winner. Got to think beyond 2020 as well as the season at hand.
Thank you. $15-$18 mill per right now is a waste of money on a player that has not lived up to what was expected of him.
Never lived up to his draft status, rarely racks up the numbers Edges are paid for, and the questions about this attitude, work ethic, and health are all still there. He is a plus run defender and had a few games where he was visible and disruptive, but it was also on a good Seahawks team with talent around him. He still disappears for long stretches.
There's also the tidbit that his asking price has dropped and still no one is making a move. Adding him now at let's say $15M for a young team full of holes doesn't accomplish much and doesn't match their timeline to be a winner. Got to think beyond 2020 as well as the season at hand.
Very fair analysis. I've not followed Clowney so I don't have any opinions to the contrary. The appeal to some, I believe, is that Clowney, even if not a perfect solution, is still good enough and young enough to address need on Edge in the short run, freeing up the team to focus on OL in the draft. And even if neither is a perfect answer, the combination of Clowney and Ol of team's choice @4 goes a way towards addressing they biggest needs.
I'm not advocating this, but I do see the appeal. Question I would have then are --If not Clowney, what is the alternative for a team so deficient in pass rush who is already losing their best pass rusher from last year. Secondly, can they afford to pass on both Clowney in FA AND OT in round 1? I am of the opinion we need to come away with a blue chip talent with our top pick, however, if we continue to pass on addressing Edge and OL with premium resources, we're going to find ourselves in the same position a year from now --too many major needs to fill in one off-season, barring us hitting a bit of luck in subsequent rounds.
Of getting Clowney. But there are ways to free up $$ to do it so you don't have to let Williams walk... and drafting Brown, on top of that seems like an excess of commitments to the DL.
I think that #4 pick is better spent on another area of need.
The draft was not moved in front of FA in the new deal. It is such a moronic way to run a franchise. Add FA's on huge contracts before being able to draft to fill holes?
If you delay it, it benefits the top and middle tiers. People will panic and overspend after the draft. Its an NFLPA NO Brainer. It's also better business. So dumb the way the NFL does its order of roster building.
Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
I'm dubious about signing a guy who has underachieved to a big contract and expecting him to perform like he did in the playoffs of a contract year.
There is no gaurantee that Brown will be better than Williams
putting the deal aside, Williams is very good DT and he's only 25. Keep him and use the draft choice for Simmons or a OT, fix those spots. Replacing Williams with Brown is at best using our #1 to tread water talent wise.
RE: What exactly is the point of bringing in Clowney
Does he make sense to build a young defense around?
That's really the question you have to answer first.
I think Clowney is the type of player you bring in when you are making a run and need another piece to push you over the top. He is not a piece to add when you are building a team with a lot of holes.
The thing about Williams is he's a very good complimentary piece at what Gettleman regards as an important position. He plays well in the sandbox. He plays a very dependable game and often has to be double teamed on the inside.
^This. The trade was stupid, but Williams is a very good player. I don't want Clowney for the reasons you cite. We are not one or even two players away.
I can't see the Giants drafting Brown unless they trade Tomlinson.
RE: There is no gaurantee that Brown will be better than Williams
putting the deal aside, Williams is very good DT and he's only 25. Keep him and use the draft choice for Simmons or a OT, fix those spots. Replacing Williams with Brown is at best using our #1 to tread water talent wise.
Look, I like Williams, I really do. But for weeks posters have screamed they like him at around $12M per and if he were to be paid at or around $17M then DG should be fired or worse. So the premise is to pay the Edge $17M (not sniffing Yannick for less than $20M) and draft a cost controlled Derek Brown. If we are going to pursue an Edge, we are going to have to pay.
Why do we have to rescind the tag on Leonard Williams
To me the reality is this team is likely to be improved, but not enough to make the playoffs in 2020. I have to make decisions for 2020, 2021, 2022, etc. I have holes everywhere which I know won't be 100% filled come training camp.
If I've set a value on a player, I'm sticking to it. Giants made him an offer and they're probably sticking to it. Fans tend to yell do something, anything, and fail to realize their team isn't the only one playing the negotiation game, and/or what the bigger picture is.
I get the appeal, but the target isn't a do or die one. I think DG realizes he can't afford anymore Solders, and doesn't want to make a Vernon-type mistake. Hopefully, he'll realize his move to acquire LW was also him overrating a player.
Whats it going to take for you all to see that Clowney is overrated.
In comment 14857105 Section331 said:
[quote] In comment 14856951 KingBlue said:
Quote:
Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
I'm dubious about signing a guy who has underachieved to a big contract and expecting him to perform like he did in the playoffs of a contract year. [uote]
This would be a big one
This would be a big one
Hasn't admitted a mistake? How many FAs did he cut quickly? Omameh, to name one...
Williams hustles each play and has missed very little time. Clowney with all World potential did very little even when paired with JJ Watt. $17 mill for 3.5 sacks.?
Quote:
and draft a cost controlled beast in Brown. Our defense would be vastly improved IMHO. I think, from what I've read, that Brown is a top 5 defensive player in this draft and would not be a reach at 4.
Williams hustles each play and has missed very little time. Clowney with all World potential did very little even when paired with JJ Watt. $17 mill for 3.5 sacks.?
Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
Forget DB and DT in this draft. OL, LB, and ER only.
Quote:
Which he has done in the past.
This would be a big one
Hasn't admitted a mistake? How many FAs did he cut quickly? Omameh, to name one...
so true, and he should then compuond it by commiting to Clowney? sounds like throwing good $$ after bad.
Forget DB and DT in this draft. OL, LB, and ER only.
I disagree with your take regarding Clowney and MO Wilkerson. I also think it is highly likely that we will draft DB over Edge in the draft.
I know I do not write a newsletter, but there is the very real possibility that both of the above are better players, at least in 2020, than Brown.
I know I do not write a newsletter, but there is the very real possibility that both of the above are better players, at least in 2020, than Brown.
Wow Bob, that's quite a take. Brown was admittedly awful at the combine, but he was an absolute beast for Auburn. I think he projects better than you surmise.
Quote:
Which he has done in the past.
This would be a big one
Hasn't admitted a mistake? How many FAs did he cut quickly? Omameh, to name one...
You may want to read Joey's post again.
Does he make sense to build a young defense around?
That's really the question you have to answer first.
I think Clowney is the type of player you bring in when you are making a run and need another piece to push you over the top. He is not a piece to add when you are building a team with a lot of holes.
The thing about Williams is he's a very good complimentary piece at what Gettleman regards as an important position. He plays well in the sandbox. He plays a very dependable game and often has to be double teamed on the inside.
5.26 needs to be explained. Dynamic inside pass rush does not come readily to mind. Definitely not a position of need unless you are getting far more than incremental improvement.
Does he make sense to build a young defense around?
That's really the question you have to answer first.
I think Clowney is the type of player you bring in when you are making a run and need another piece to push you over the top. He is not a piece to add when you are building a team with a lot of holes.
The thing about Williams is he's a very good complimentary piece at what Gettleman regards as an important position. He plays well in the sandbox. He plays a very dependable game and often has to be double teamed on the inside.
Right on about Williams. He was double teamed a lot. Watched games last year and liked how he played. He also came in week 9 only playing 8 games without knowing the NYG scheme really. The fact that so quickly he was facing double teams speaks volumes about his skillset.
Now throw in Dexter Lawrence as a 2nd year player but unfortunately everybody has to learn a new system. The only fear I have as a fan is will DG trade Tomlinson for like a round 3 pick. Really hope not honestly as it’d hurt the defensive line but who knows anymore what will occur. This draft can’t come soon enough.
You heard something?
I know this makes DG look bad, but it will make him look good if he makes this move.
It's Isiah Simmons or the offensive line.
End of.
Yannick / Brown / Lawerence / Williams / and 1 of Ximines, Carter or Fackrell... would be a handful for any OL/QB to deal with...
Yannick / Brown / Lawerence / Williams / and 1 of Ximines, Carter or Fackrell... would be a handful for any OL/QB to deal with...
I'd remove Williams, pay Clowney...
Yannick / Brown / Lawerence / Williams / and 1 of Ximines, Carter or Fackrell... would be a handful for any OL/QB to deal with...
See my post in the "Giants interest Yannick" thread that I posted to this morning. Yannick has lit the match that will burn the Jaguars House down.
Quote:
Clowney will be Mo Wilkerson 2.0 - he will quit the moment he signs that second gigantic contract . And why draft Brown when we already have 25 year old Williams ?
Forget DB and DT in this draft. OL, LB, and ER only.
I disagree with your take regarding Clowney and MO Wilkerson. I also think it is highly likely that we will draft DB over Edge in the draft.
Some of you take one isolated example, an outlier like Mo Wilkerson and apply it to all these players. Mo Wilkerson and Haynenworth were shocking outliers. I think it's sad that fans go there, really. How many guys sign for big money and they just quit like that? 1 out of 100?
gimme a break.
Yeah, that will never ever happen. I'd love to win the lottery without even paying a dollar for the ticket, but that too won't happen.
You want a good edge player, you're going to have to pay. You want crap? keep signing guys like Golden to cheap deals. See how far that takes us.
I'd just as soon let the kids develop here, draft another one, and hope for the best for one more year rather than throw money at a guy like Golden. He's a decent player but Carter and Ximines can probably be decent too. Go big or go home and wait till next year. You aren't getting Ngakoue unless you pony up a lot of picks and pay the guy like a super star player.
He comes with risk no doubt. But he's a very good player. I can see the decision to not sign him, but I think the Giants owe it to the team to try. He's one of the rare edge players who can be had without trade. They don't come around often.
There's also the tidbit that his asking price has dropped and still no one is making a move. Adding him now at let's say $15M for a young team full of holes doesn't accomplish much and doesn't match their timeline to be a winner. Got to think beyond 2020 as well as the season at hand.
Does he make sense to build a young defense around?
That's really the question you have to answer first.
I think Clowney is the type of player you bring in when you are making a run and need another piece to push you over the top. He is not a piece to add when you are building a team with a lot of holes.
The thing about Williams is he's a very good complimentary piece at what Gettleman regards as an important position. He plays well in the sandbox. He plays a very dependable game and often has to be double teamed on the inside.
I've seen this take a lot lately, I don't really get it. Isn't the plan here to improve? Clowney is 27 and might very well have 3 big years left in him. I think every front office in the NFL believes they can win inside of 2 years, tops. Why can't we go from terrible to good and then go from there? What's wrong with going from 4-5 wins to 8-9-10 wins and then replacing Clowney once he's off the books? this D has NO vet star power. When is it time?
Also, we've seen time and time again a team is never as good or bad as popular belief. Virtually every bad team is one or two plays away. guys, we need to fucking WIN again. Forget super bowls....my god how about winning 10 games? In no way am I saying throw caution to the wind and go for broke, but if you have a shot at a guy you think can help the team win, you have to explore it. If mgmt doesn't love Clowney, stay away. But don't ignore the guy because "we aren't ready"--that's just crazy to me. We aren't ready because we lack players. Get players.
There's also the tidbit that his asking price has dropped and still no one is making a move. Adding him now at let's say $15M for a young team full of holes doesn't accomplish much and doesn't match their timeline to be a winner. Got to think beyond 2020 as well as the season at hand.
Thank you. $15-$18 mill per right now is a waste of money on a player that has not lived up to what was expected of him.
There's also the tidbit that his asking price has dropped and still no one is making a move. Adding him now at let's say $15M for a young team full of holes doesn't accomplish much and doesn't match their timeline to be a winner. Got to think beyond 2020 as well as the season at hand.
I'm not advocating this, but I do see the appeal. Question I would have then are --If not Clowney, what is the alternative for a team so deficient in pass rush who is already losing their best pass rusher from last year. Secondly, can they afford to pass on both Clowney in FA AND OT in round 1? I am of the opinion we need to come away with a blue chip talent with our top pick, however, if we continue to pass on addressing Edge and OL with premium resources, we're going to find ourselves in the same position a year from now --too many major needs to fill in one off-season, barring us hitting a bit of luck in subsequent rounds.
With that said, he remains unsigned.
I think that #4 pick is better spent on another area of need.
If you delay it, it benefits the top and middle tiers. People will panic and overspend after the draft. Its an NFLPA NO Brainer. It's also better business. So dumb the way the NFL does its order of roster building.
Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
I'm dubious about signing a guy who has underachieved to a big contract and expecting him to perform like he did in the playoffs of a contract year.
Does he make sense to build a young defense around?
That's really the question you have to answer first.
I think Clowney is the type of player you bring in when you are making a run and need another piece to push you over the top. He is not a piece to add when you are building a team with a lot of holes.
The thing about Williams is he's a very good complimentary piece at what Gettleman regards as an important position. He plays well in the sandbox. He plays a very dependable game and often has to be double teamed on the inside.
^This. The trade was stupid, but Williams is a very good player. I don't want Clowney for the reasons you cite. We are not one or even two players away.
I can't see the Giants drafting Brown unless they trade Tomlinson.
Look, I like Williams, I really do. But for weeks posters have screamed they like him at around $12M per and if he were to be paid at or around $17M then DG should be fired or worse. So the premise is to pay the Edge $17M (not sniffing Yannick for less than $20M) and draft a cost controlled Derek Brown. If we are going to pursue an Edge, we are going to have to pay.
You just take him,and than you'll get a big smile on you're face.
If I've set a value on a player, I'm sticking to it. Giants made him an offer and they're probably sticking to it. Fans tend to yell do something, anything, and fail to realize their team isn't the only one playing the negotiation game, and/or what the bigger picture is.
I get the appeal, but the target isn't a do or die one. I think DG realizes he can't afford anymore Solders, and doesn't want to make a Vernon-type mistake. Hopefully, he'll realize his move to acquire LW was also him overrating a player.
His level of play and impact on a game by game basis, factoring in individual talent and availability, is not that far off from Leonard Williams.
[quote] In comment 14856951 KingBlue said:
Quote:
Section, I can't argue that he has under performed and won't. But I did see a disruptive player at EDge in the 2019 playoffs. His potential to solve a major positional problem and add to an already talented defensive front is worth the risk at a reasonable $17M per year, IMHO.
I'm dubious about signing a guy who has underachieved to a big contract and expecting him to perform like he did in the playoffs of a contract year. [uote]
YES. Spot on