OK Boomer - Time to crack open that dinosaur egg of a noggin you have there and it is time for you to learn how your favorite pastime has changed. (I am just teasing but I wanted to make sure I have your attention, I have no idea how many of you are older than me because I am old enough to have watched all of the Giants Superbowls)
All the talk about Simmons has shown me how many people out there view the linebacker position so differently than I do and I am totally shocked. So I thought I would take a swing at trying to paint a picture of my perspective not just in my words but also using references of others past and current. So please read these articles if you are bored or want to at least understand us out there that have been saying that NFL Linebacker has changed. Besides we are all shut in due to Covid-19 so why not take the time to do some light reading. Please Read before Reacting - just like a good Linebacker should.
Article 1:
New Job Description for Defense’s Old Anchorman
New York Times, Judy Battista 2009 - yes this was written a decade ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/28/sports/football/28linebacker.html
This is an interesting read, it talks about how the linebacker position is changing to smaller, faster linebackers and it even has some info about Harry Carson and Antonio Pearce. Did I mention this article is already 11 years old so you need to think about how much has changed since then. But the writer had an interesting blurb in there that I wanted to share:
“Now, linebackers often look like big safeties, weighing in at around 240 pounds, blessed with speed and quickness, but not always power. Even when teams run the ball, it is often out wide or off tackle, rarely out of an I-formation with a fullback leading straight into the middle linebacker’s traditional wheelhouse. And more and more, teams are replacing runs with screens and flares, requiring linebackers to move laterally more often than forward to plug a hole.”
So please stop making comments about LBs size being to small at 6’4” 238lbs
Article 2
The NFL’s Linebacker Evolution
The Ringer, Robert Mays 2016
https://www.theringer.com/2016/8/25/16044526/nfl-linebacker-position-evolution-deone-bucannon-mark-barron-6bd005ab96b
This article has some interesting takes from coaches and GM’s in the NFL and how they started converting the safeties to Linebackers because it is a necessity in today’s NFL. Here is quote from Rams GM Les Snead:
“Those guys seem to make their living not by getting off blocks, but by never getting blocked,” Snead says. “They’ve got to read things quickly so they can use their deficiency to their advantage.”
So please stop focusing on the importance of LBs ability to shed blocks.
That article is already 4 years old. I wonder what kind of players will be drafted to play linebacker in 2020
Article 3
How can NFL defenses keep up with ever-changing offenses? Dan Quinn has a few ideas
AtlantaFalcons.com, Will McFadden, 2019
https://www.atlantafalcons.com/news/how-can-nfl-defenses-keep-up-with-ever-changing-offenses-dan-quinn-has-a-few-ide
This article goes into some good detail about today’s NFL. New rule changes have been implemented affecting the games physicality and speed. There are more mobile QBs, RBs catching balls in the flat, and large athletic TEs causing scoring to increase. Dan Quinn is no fool when it comes to defense and he talks about the need for TODAY’s Linebacker.
The writer wrote this tidbit about what they call an “off ball” linebacker:
“The "off-ball" linebacker has become a new trend around the league. Linebackers used to be coveted for their size and tenacity as run defenders. As the league shifts towards a more pass-friendly approach, however, what were once prized traits have now become liabilities.
As offenses seek to target those liabilities, defenses are having to find players who negate those mismatches. “
This article has some really great points of view that I recommend everyone here to read.
Now look at your New York Giants roster and tell me how acceptable our linebacker core is today. There is a reason why Simmons is near the top of the draft boards. You are allowed to want offensive tackle. You are allowed to not like Simmons if you don’t think he can play the NEW “off ball” Linebacker. But Please don’t tell me you don’t like him because he is too small, or not physical enough. Don’t tell me you don’t like him because he “position-less” He just plays a position that you are not aware of yet.
To quote Will Farrell’s character from Step Brothers, Brennan Huff: “Shush up for one second. Shut your mouth. Wait. Shut your mouth.You're just coming off stupid.”
Stop acting like the wheel is being reinvented when all you did was change it's name.
Simmons is not a pro LB
You have been very anti Simmons but you are really anti change. You are not arguing with me but you are really arguing with today's defensive coordinators. Strong safeties are still on the field in these packages, so if the verbiage bothers you and you don't like the idea of creating a new position name. If you want to call it Strong Safety, I can work with that.
What of if I told you that you need 2 starting Strong Safeties to play defense today and one less LB.
This write up was not really about Simmons, he is just the catalyst of the conversation. It is a principle difference on how to play defense and our teams preparedness.
And there’s the problem.
The rules are different than they were in the 80s.
Personnel has adjusted to the new rules.
Like it or not those are facts. But DG’s core philosophy is antiquated. If the nfl changes the rules back DG would be perfect.
First Gidie - thank you for responding with a great question.
It is actually the perfect compliment to this ideal. Investing in the three really strong DT types of players is the first step that you need to accomplish. You need a DL that can take on the most offensive lineman with using the least amount of players. These Dlineman are not designed to get the quarterback, that is not their primary function.
Their primary function is two things depending on play call. If we are thinking this offense is going to the run the ball, these lineman are move all pressure to the inside, to block up space an interior run and force the RB back to the outside where your fast linebacker can take advantage of their speed. If we think the offense is going to pass then the we have designed plays for linebackers to shoot the gaps and cover the backs. This is done by the strong physical lineman needing the ability to move offensive lineman to the designed location. If they can successfully get their guy to the desired location then that leaves a gap where a linebacker can run through (with speed) unscathed or it leaves them going up against only the running back. So your are basically wedging and anchoring with your physical prowess and making room for a speedy linebacker to fly in. Again these lineman are not trying to get the QB.
This is why the Giants went after Dlineman that do not have the sack numbers, we barely care about them. What we care about is their ability to move the offensive line to the desired location - and for that you need Hog-Mollies to do so.
So the fact that we invested in Dexter Lawrence, Leonard Williams, and Dalvin Tomlinson makes sense. The issue is the investment we already made is worthless if you do not have the speed behind them. These linebackers need to be versatile - sometimes they will be shoot the gaps and sometimes they will need to cover a RB or a TE.
So just like the argument people are saying that you need to protect the investment of Daniel Jones and SB by having a good Oline - which no one will disagree with - it is just as important to get the correct linebackers due to the investment you already made in the D-line or you are just being wasteful.
If your linebackers are not really fast then you are not getting to the QBs but more importantly they need to be fast enough to react and read the play in order to get the outside to cover a pass catching RB in the flat or a TE crossing or slanting in the middle. Last year our defense was terrible at this because we did not have the linebackers to do this.
Quote:
approach to playing physical at the line of scrimmage?
And there’s the problem.
The rules are different than they were in the 80s.
Personnel has adjusted to the new rules.
Like it or not those are facts. But DG’s core philosophy is antiquated. If the nfl changes the rules back DG would be perfect.
I dont think there is a problem with DG's philosophy - the problem is this is only part of the solution.
Quote:
approach to playing physical at the line of scrimmage?
And there’s the problem.
The rules are different than they were in the 80s.
Personnel has adjusted to the new rules.
Like it or not those are facts. But DG’s core philosophy is antiquated. If the nfl changes the rules back DG would be perfect.
Football comes down to running the ball and stopping the run. Did you see the post season? Football doesn’t change as much as everyone wants it to. You control the clock by running. The cowboys built their entire offense around the run game. The ravens around the run game. The 9ers run game. Titans run game. Watch football as much as everyone loves to pretend it changed so much due to the rules it really hasn’t. DG said it right before the playoffs. Look at the playoffs teams and where they ranked in Running the football as opposed to passing. The New York giants are trying to build a team around their running back.
Imo, building up a top OP that can take advantage of these smaller defenses is the right approach. That is why Tennessee had so much success this year with Ryan Fuck Tannehill barely throwing the ball.
Now, flip to the other side, what is wrong with our DL? Is it possible even if you hate DG that you can still give him a compliment and say our DL is a good thing? Just because someone doesn't like him doesn't mean every move he makes is wrong.
Also, yes, we need more coverage guys in our back 7. We also need guys that can get after the passer. Speed along doesn't make a good pass rusher. If it did then guys like Terrell Suggs wouldn't be good. We are getting to where we need to be on defense but more important is how our defense plays together. I haven't seen a cohesive unit since Spags was here. It goes beyond talent. Defense is 11 guys playing together as one. I look around the league and see plenty of defenses with talent that underperform. They rely on that one guy to be a force. That isn't defense. That's not coaching. So, yeah, we will be adding talent to this defense but that isn't going to be a finished product in one year.
OP = OL
Quote:
In comment 14857885 gidiefor said:
Quote:
approach to playing physical at the line of scrimmage?
And there’s the problem.
The rules are different than they were in the 80s.
Personnel has adjusted to the new rules.
Like it or not those are facts. But DG’s core philosophy is antiquated. If the nfl changes the rules back DG would be perfect.
Football comes down to running the ball and stopping the run. Did you see the post season? Football doesn’t change as much as everyone wants it to. You control the clock by running. The cowboys built their entire offense around the run game. The ravens around the run game. The 9ers run game. Titans run game. Watch football as much as everyone loves to pretend it changed so much due to the rules it really hasn’t. DG said it right before the playoffs. Look at the playoffs teams and where they ranked in Running the football as opposed to passing. The New York giants are trying to build a team around their running back.
Oh TuckRule - I have been waiting for you to respond. I dont think anyone thinks that is not important to run the ball or stop the run. Over half the league passes close to if not over 60% percent of the time. Also who was the Raven leading rusher last year? THEIR QB - even more the reason for this type of linebacker. Also what do the Titans and SF 49ers have in common - oh that's right - they both LOST to Chiefs - who have a mobile QB and their rushing average was in the bottom half of the league with below 100yds a game.
I dont think its smart for the Giants to try to build an offense to outscore the Chiefs but they surely need to build a defense to slow them down.
OP = OL
I did say I was ok with drafting a OL - that is also something that needs addressed. This post was addressing the populous that thinks every linebacker is supposed to be some kind of interior run stuffer - and that is simply not true anymore.
What I am saying is I think as bad as our O-line is, an argument can be made that we are even more inadequate from the Linebacker position.
Surprised no reference in the articles to Brian Urlacher who played Safety in college.
Thanks for the mental model we should be using when evaluating Simmons.
What I am saying is I think as bad as our O-line is, an argument can be made that we are even more inadequate from the Linebacker position.
I wouldn't say "inadequate." It's a missing piece. An run-stopping ILB is important too. Can't just rely on the DL. You have power backs and shifty guys who run up the middle and an ILB is needed to stop those guys. The OLB helps out on runs to the outside and screens as well as coverage in the middle. They are complementary.
If you look at our D vs OL, while a rangy OLB would be a great addition, a bigger need on D is arguably either a strong edge rusher or a FS. And on Offense, a stronger OL is key as DJ got his ass handed to him way too many times, disrupting plays and causing turnovers.
Basically, putting talent aside and going purely on position of need, I'd say OL, FS, Edge and then OLB. And that doesn't even bring in the need of a true #1 WR (like Hopkins, Jones, Thomas, etc.) who can stretch the field and ease pressure on the OL from defenders stacking the box.
Gee...thanks.
It really doesn't matter to me how the LB position has evolved. What matters to me is the opportunity cost of the Giants drafting a defender - any defender - with their 1st round pick at the expense of their highest-graded OT.
The Giants have already invested significant draft capital on a RB and a QB, and haven't come close to protecting those investments with a comparable outlay for their offensive line. That has to change (and it has to change now) or they run the risk of wasting another prime year of that RB, and retarding the growth of that QB, by subjecting them to another year of sub-par O-Line play.
Well before Steve Serby wrote about it, I maintained in numerous posts that the primary concern for the Giants in this draft should be protecting Daniel Jones, not just for this year, but for the future years, with developmental prospects at OT and C/OG on days two and three, as well. A secondary concern should be providing him with more weapons. In this draft, unlike last year's, defense should be addressed only after those two have been accomplished (and let's not forget that they've already spent their high 3rd round pick on a defender).
The Giants' future depends on Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley. Their choice, not mine. But having made that choice, they should at least do everything they can to insure that it was the right choice.
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In comment 14857925 robbieballs2003 said:
What I am saying is I think as bad as our O-line is, an argument can be made that we are even more inadequate from the Linebacker position.
I don't think this is remotely true. Our OL is one of the worst OL in the league. Now, our LB aren't great but at least there is a real investment and some potential there. Our OL is short 3 and maybe 4 starters. It's a disaster.
Ravens mobile qb who run. Simmons will shut that down? Did you not see their massively gifted offensive line. All the option runs. Lamar was their leading rusher by designed runs. He wasn’t just scrambling whenever he felt like it. DESIGNED RUNS which means Simmons would have to shed blocks IN TRAFFIC. Also I would love to see Simmons tackle engram running downhill. Would be epic
Teams pass 60 percent. Cool. Again look at the playoff teams and remove the chiefs. All heavy run teams.
Your citing the super bowl champs as an example of how the league has changed. That is one team with arguably the most gifted QB to ever play the game of football.
You cannot say teams pass 60 percent therefore Simmons is really valuable. Go draft dugger, Chinn or Gaither in round 3. That’s value. Simmons at 4 isn’t a value pick imo. Simmons mid round 1 you could argue it. We need to protect our draft assets. It’s like buying a building that has zero waterproofing and instead of shoring up your property you go out and by 2 more buildings all of which are leaking. Nice buildings but flawed thinking.
So the fact that we invested in Dexter Lawrence, Leonard Williams, and Dalvin Tomlinson makes sense. The issue is the investment we already made is worthless if you do not have the speed behind them. These linebackers need to be versatile - sometimes they will be shoot the gaps and sometimes they will need to cover a RB or a TE.
So just like the argument people are saying that you need to protect the investment of Daniel Jones and SB by having a good Oline - which no one will disagree with - it is just as important to get the correct linebackers due to the investment you already made in the D-line or you are just being wasteful.
If your linebackers are not really fast then you are not getting to the QBs but more importantly they need to be fast enough to react and read the play in order to get the outside to cover a pass catching RB in the flat or a TE crossing or slanting in the middle. Last year our defense was terrible at this because we did not have the linebackers to do this.
I'm not going to say that Gettleman doesn't like speed -- but I am going to say that he likes speed in combination with size. If you read my camp reports you would have read my observation that the Giants have become much beefier since Gettleman has arrived.
Say what you want about Saquon -- he is fast and he is beefy. The linemen on both sides of the ball are heftier and taller. The linebackers are mostly beefier. Even the backfield is beefier.
I'm also not going to say that Gettleman won't take Simmons -- but there are concerns that he's "light in the pants." Take it for what it's worth.
On the other hand Gettleman drafted Shaq Thompson in the first round -- He is a similar multi-tooled linebacker but a but shorter and it was later in the first round.
Wirfs on the other fits the body and athletic profile that appears to be the prize right now, bigger and more athletic and fast.
I have to believe that Judge is going to have some say in this as is Graham and Garrett -- and we just don't know what that is yet, but there are some clues in who they have signed since FA began and they are bringing in tough physical players. I just don't think Simmons exactly fits that profile.
One more thing I will say. Gettleman, from my point of view, has in fact tipped his draft pick each year. He has said exactly what's on his mind. He glowed about Saquon before he picked him. Last year was the no guts no glory year, and it certainly took guts to pick Jones despite what all the pundits were saying, and including those that advise the Giants. This year he made a point of talking about the size and strength of the Defensive lines that dominate the NFCE. That to me strongly suggests that he really does want to draft a player like Wirfs.
You can have your opinion(s) and theories about how you would do it and theories that seduce you, but I choose to be an observer, and those are my observations.
Simmons at 4 doesn’t give me the value I want for my team.
Similar players to Simmons are guys I mentioned. Chinn, dugger gaither. These are project types that on day 3 you can get great value. I’m a guy that want to build the lines like Dallas, 9ers, ravens etc. This is my goal for this team. DG did that with our d line. It’s time to focus on the other side of the ball. I would bet the farm that we do indeed take a tackle wether it’s at 4 or in a trade down. It will be a tackle. Solder is gone after the year. Flemming is a swing tackle or stop gap. We keep neglecting the line and I think it stops this season.
Ravens mobile qb who run. Simmons will shut that down? Did you not see their massively gifted offensive line. All the option runs. Lamar was their leading rusher by designed runs. He wasn’t just scrambling whenever he felt like it. DESIGNED RUNS which means Simmons would have to shed blocks IN TRAFFIC. Also I would love to see Simmons tackle engram running downhill. Would be epic
Teams pass 60 percent. Cool. Again look at the playoff teams and remove the chiefs. All heavy run teams.
Your citing the super bowl champs as an example of how the league has changed. That is one team with arguably the most gifted QB to ever play the game of football.
You cannot say teams pass 60 percent therefore Simmons is really valuable. Go draft dugger, Chinn or Gaither in round 3. That’s value. Simmons at 4 isn’t a value pick imo. Simmons mid round 1 you could argue it. We need to protect our draft assets. It’s like buying a building that has zero waterproofing and instead of shoring up your property you go out and by 2 more buildings all of which are leaking. Nice buildings but flawed thinking.
I can say the same thing about the investment on defense - you have invested in a Dline - but you are missing the correct linebacker behind them to make it all work. This post was talking about this TYPE of linebacker - Simmons might not be the correct player - but that type of linebacker does exist now - I could also argue that there are a lot lineman drafted in later rounds too. Ravens do have a 6 overall tackle, but they the rest of the line was drafter in the 3rd or later.
I am not saying that picking a Franchise Left Tackle is not a great pick - but at 4 that is what he has to be - not a Right tackle or guard that could get in later rounds.
Same goes for a linebacker - who ever is picked at 4 needs to make a great impact - we go round and round - but that is not the point of this post - this post is arguing that the thought this type of linebacker is not a real position and not important to have.
I dont think anyone is arguing that a great LT is not a need or not good to have. This comes down to confidence the Giants think they have in the OT prospect being a LT or Simmons being a LB. I am just pointing out the whole notion that a player is too small at his size, and avoids blocks instead of shedding them is a total Bull argument.
Quote:
So the fact that we invested in Dexter Lawrence, Leonard Williams, and Dalvin Tomlinson makes sense. The issue is the investment we already made is worthless if you do not have the speed behind them. These linebackers need to be versatile - sometimes they will be shoot the gaps and sometimes they will need to cover a RB or a TE.
So just like the argument people are saying that you need to protect the investment of Daniel Jones and SB by having a good Oline - which no one will disagree with - it is just as important to get the correct linebackers due to the investment you already made in the D-line or you are just being wasteful.
If your linebackers are not really fast then you are not getting to the QBs but more importantly they need to be fast enough to react and read the play in order to get the outside to cover a pass catching RB in the flat or a TE crossing or slanting in the middle. Last year our defense was terrible at this because we did not have the linebackers to do this.
I'm not going to say that Gettleman doesn't like speed -- but I am going to say that he likes speed in combination with size. If you read my camp reports you would have read my observation that the Giants have become much beefier since Gettleman has arrived.
Say what you want about Saquon -- he is fast and he is beefy. The linemen on both sides of the ball are heftier and taller. The linebackers are mostly beefier. Even the backfield is beefier.
I'm also not going to say that Gettleman won't take Simmons -- but there are concerns that he's "light in the pants." Take it for what it's worth.
On the other hand Gettleman drafted Shaq Thompson in the first round -- He is a similar multi-tooled linebacker but a but shorter and it was later in the first round.
Wirfs on the other fits the body and athletic profile that appears to be the prize right now, bigger and more athletic and fast.
I have to believe that Judge is going to have some say in this as is Graham and Garrett -- and we just don't know what that is yet, but there are some clues in who they have signed since FA began and they are bringing in tough physical players. I just don't think Simmons exactly fits that profile.
One more thing I will say. Gettleman, from my point of view, has in fact tipped his draft pick each year. He has said exactly what's on his mind. He glowed about Saquon before he picked him. Last year was the no guts no glory year, and it certainly took guts to pick Jones despite what all the pundits were saying, and including those that advise the Giants. This year he made a point of talking about the size and strength of the Defensive lines that dominate the NFCE. That to me strongly suggests that he really does want to draft a player like Wirfs.
You can have your opinion(s) and theories about how you would do it and theories that seduce you, but I choose to be an observer, and those are my observations.
Gidie - I like your perspective too - I agree about the Gettleman tipping as well - but I also think I have observed a noticeable difference with Gettleman's demeanor since Judge arrived. That is what makes this year so interesting Judge is going to have more insight and we have no idea what he is really thinking - which is what leaves us in debating these topic so much.
The one thing I will say is I don’t understand or buy into the whole “if he can’t play left tackle he isn’t worth it”. You need bookend tackles. If wills or wirfs turn out to be starting right tackles for 8-12 years making a pro bowl here or there. That’s great value at a need. If we can solidify the right side for the next 4 years with Zietler wirfs/will thats a homerun. Then it allows us to only search for one tackle and who knows. Maybe we take a flier late on a tackle as a project.
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You are allowed to want [an] offensive tackle.
Gee...thanks.
It really doesn't matter to me how the LB position has evolved. What matters to me is the opportunity cost of the Giants drafting a defender - any defender - with their 1st round pick at the expense of their highest-graded OT.
The Giants have already invested significant draft capital on a RB and a QB, and haven't come close to protecting those investments with a comparable outlay for their offensive line. That has to change (and it has to change now) or they run the risk of wasting another prime year of that RB, and retarding the growth of that QB, by subjecting them to another year of sub-par O-Line play.
Well before Steve Serby wrote about it, I maintained in numerous posts that the primary concern for the Giants in this draft should be protecting Daniel Jones, not just for this year, but for the future years, with developmental prospects at OT and C/OG on days two and three, as well. A secondary concern should be providing him with more weapons. In this draft, unlike last year's, defense should be addressed only after those two have been accomplished (and let's not forget that they've already spent their high 3rd round pick on a defender).
The Giants' future depends on Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley. Their choice, not mine. But having made that choice, they should at least do everything they can to insure that it was the right choice.
This.
As I have said and still do say, I will be happy either way. The thing that tips me toward Simmons(besides Sy'56 report) is his playmaking ability. He can and will be all over the field. He just makes plays and that is something that the Giants do not have right now.
If you look at which player will have the biggest impact for the Giants(Wirfs or other OT) vs Simmons, I think Simmons will. Just getting the defense off the field more frequently is a huge plus. But the Giants absolutely must get a C this draft.
If the Giants Light Connelly I think we are set inside at linebacker.
I really like Blake Martinez.
So if Simmons is to be any kind of prize in my opinion the Giants must be thinking of him as an edge playerWho can move into the middle on obvious passing downs.
I can see where he would be an asset in those situations but like others have said don’t know that he’s a proto typical NFL force player on first and 2nd down.
If this defense of coaching staff is a good one I don’t think the number of giant holes or is glaring as bbi does.
I hope the Giants have one of the OT’s ranked high enough to grab him at 4.
And that's OK in today's 11 personnel, slot WR, zone blocking, shotgun, 90 catch RBs league.
And that's OK in today's 11 personnel, slot WR, zone blocking, shotgun, 90 catch RBs league.
Huh? I think that is a broad analysis about BBI that may be imaginary - there are more than a few BBIer who are salivating over Simmons - and besides the OP's comparison is the first and only reference to Harry Carson that I have seen in a Simmons discussion