LINEBACKER
Format includes a quick position overview, my grading scale and what the number mean, the summary and final grade from my final report on my top 15, a quick additional note on the player, and my ranks 16-25 with grades only.
*I AM NOT DOING NFL COMPARISONS
Quick Position Overview
Keep in mind I have an “EDGE” position preview coming up next week, so I may not go in to some of those linebackers in this preview. I am mainly talking about the off-ball guys that primarily play between the tackles. Depending on what NYG uses as their base personnel, we are likely looking at the newly signed Blake Martinez and second year kid Ryan Connelly, who is coming off a torn ACL after raising some eyebrows in 4 games. Neither of them are worth getting overly excited about, but that doesn’t mean the position is a weak point, not at all. In fact, especially if Connelly recovers well, the two should provide really good run defense between the tackles and to the sidelines.
The question here is two-fold. Will they be exposed in the passing game? Is there enough depth and intra-roster competition? David Mayo will be back to provide both and while we can’t look down on his performance in 2019, he is best suited for the backup role. Josiah Tauaefa looks to be a solid special teamer and backup, maybe similar to what they had in Chase Blackburn and Calvin Munson in the past. I’m not sure I see Chris Peace or Nate Harvey sticking to a 53 man roster. I think the hole they have here is coverage, as none of the above mentioned guys can hang with quality tight ends or pass catching backs. It’s been an issue for years and there isn’t a current solution on the roster.
GRADING SCALE
90+ All Pro Projection
85+: Pro Bowl Projection
81-84: First rounder – should be able to play right away
79-80: 2nd Rounder – Should be able to rotate right away – Year 2 starter
77-78: 3rd rounder – Should be able to rotate by end of rookie year – Year 2/3 starter
74-76: Early Day 3 – Special Teams – Future backup/possible starter
71-73: Mid Day 3 – Special Teams – Future backup / gamble starter
68-70: Late Day 3 - Back end of roster / Practice Squad / Development guy
65-67: Preferred UDFA
60-64: Undrafted FA
TOP 15 GRADES AND ANALYSIS
*Zack Baun, Terrell Lewis, Azur Kamara, Carter Coughlin are all graded in EDGE group
1. Isaiah Simmons / Clemson / 6'4 - 238
Grade: 89
Summary: Fourth year junior entry and two year starter from Olathe, Kansas. After an accomplished high school football and long jump career, Simmons redshirted his first year on campus at Clemson. When he finally got on the field in 2017, his upside jumped off the screen and the coaches knew they had a budding star that couldn’t be kept to one position. They moved him around a lot, seeing snaps at linebacker, nickel corner, safety, and edge rusher. It resulted in two straight years of production across the board, leading the team in tackles in 2018 and 2019 respectively in addition to 25.5 TFL and 9.5 sacks. Simmons also intercepted 4 passes, broke up 13 others, and forced 4 fumbles over that span. Simply put, he is a defensive playmaker that will wear several hats for a defense if schemed properly. He is a very non-traditional player, thus putting him in to a traditional role would be a massive mistake. Simmons is the player you scheme around, not the other way around.
*I have done more research and re-watching of tape on Simmons than any non-QB I have ever scouted. No, not because I wasn’t sure of him being elite or close to elite, but because he has played in countless roles against countless style-offenses. He plays to a sub 4.4 (which he ran at the combine), his stats are NOT inflated, and what really puts me over the hill on him are the reports I got on his character and intelligence. If you are going to gamble on an athlete at the top of the draft, make sure the intangibles are there. Simmons’ role within this defense is unknown to me – that is above my pay grade.
Do I think it can work? Absolutely. Do I think this kid is going to make plays on a defense that doesn’t have a playmaker? Absolutely. Do I think this kid can cover tight ends, spy the most athletic quarterbacks, and rush the passer? Absolutely. You just have to make sure you aren’t keeping him in one spot. As said in my summary, you need to build the scheme around him, not the other way around. If this new, motivated, young, innovation-hungry scheme is confident they can do with Simmons, pull the trigger. But one must know, he isn’t instinctive or stout against the run. He flashes power on the move but he won’t handle NFL linemen and blocking tight ends well. Put him in the wrong role, he is a day 2 kind of player.
2. Kenneth Murray / Oklahoma / 6’3 – 241
Grade: 87
Summary: Junior entry. Three year starter from Missouri City, Texas. Murray burst on to the scene in 2017, winning the Big 12 Freshman Defensive Player of the Year Award. He was a part of the All-Big 12 team all three years and ended his career as an All American. He started all 42 games of that career and has been the heartbeat to the defense. Murray has been touted for both his leadership and play by coaches and opponents alike. He is the kind of player that any team can stick in to the middle of their defense and know they have a true three down player that will make others around him better. Murray has the physical tools and mental acuity to be a star in the middle.
*It is possible, that if it weren’t for Simmons, Murray would be in the discussion for the 4th overall pick in my eyes. I don’t think he would end up being my guy, but this is the first LB I have really wanted to compare to Patrick Willis or Luke Kuechly. Everything about this kid is what the modern inside linebacker needs. Speed, burst, power, range in coverage, and true leadership. I was pretty high on Devin Bush and Devin White last year, both of which had good rookie years. Murray is better. There are a couple medical red flags that need to be looked in to further.
3. Logan Wilson / Wyoming / 6’2 – 241
Grade: 81
Summary: Fifth year senior from Casper, Wyoming. He arrived at Wyoming as a 185 pound defensive back. After his redshirt year, Wilson moved to linebacker and earned the Mountain West Freshman of the Year Award. He was a three time All Mountain West honoree and finished his career as an All American. The high school track standout blends the new and old age linebacker in to one package. He has the NFL body but can move like a safety. His strengths are on display when he is in space pursuing the action and covering tight ends and backs. He does struggle mightily when taking on blocks, but he is entering the league at the right time as cover linebackers are in high demand and Wilson brings that to the table without giving up too much against the run.
*10 years ago we would have labeled this kid as a linebacker that wasn’t stout enough. To be real, stoutness is less of a factor than it has ever been and the ability to run, chase, and cover are more important. Wilson, with good size, moves really well and was really productive. Smart kid, will start early in his career. Can play multiple spots.
4. Patrick Queen / LSU / 6’0 – 229
Grade: 81
Summary: Junior entry. Two year starter from Ventress, Louisiana. Over the course of his final two years on campus, Queen started just over a full season’s worth of games. By the end of LSU’s championship run he was arguably the top defensive player on the team. He evolved in to a weapon that was all over the field on every down. The NFL’s desire for speed and coverage ability will make Queen a sought after commodity, as his tools in space are near the elite level. He is still growing and evolving as an interior run defender and there are mental lapses that show up from time to time, but this is the kind of linebacker that every team wants now. High upside player.
*I have Queen as a late first round talent as you can see but I can confirm that many don’t see a round 1 guy. As good as he looks at times, the two things NFL coaches and scouts won’t like are the lack of size (especially his short arms) and the fact he was a 1 year starter. And to build off that, he wasn’t the starter at the beginning of the season. He only got in there when he did because Michael Divinity got in some off-field trouble that led to a suspension.
5. Akeem Davis-Gaither / Appalachian State / 6’2 – 224
Grade: 77
Summary: Fifth year senior from Thomasville, North Carolina. Two year starter. Finished 2018 off with a 2nd Team All Sun Belt honor before really taking off as a senior. 2019 Sun Belt Defensive Player of the Year. Davis-Gaither was a team captain and obvious leader of the defense that set the tone each and every week. His speed and burst were just too much to handle for his opponents and it was able to impact the game in several ways. He lined up as an edge rusher and showed plus-blitzing ability, he lined up as an inside run defender and was able to move through traffic well enough, and he lined in space as an effective cover linebacker. He won’t be a schematic fit for several teams but a defense that wants to add speed and versatility but can also keep him out of downhill run stuffing responsibilities will have a high outlook on him.
*I see some Telvin Smith here. Undersized, short reach, slight frame. But this dude can move at a different speed than his opponents and he will evade blockers well. Really fun player to watch but he needs to be protected. I don’t see him impact the game as a blitzer or interior run defender, but he will fly around and cover backs with ease.
6. Troy Dye / Oregon / 6’3 – 231
Grade: 77
Summary: Senior entry from Norco, California. Four year starter that led the Ducks in tackles all four seasons. Three time 2nd Team All Pac 12 defender following his Honorable Mention 2016 season. Dye finished his career near the top of the program’s all time tackles list. He has been a productive player across the board and it showed both on the stat sheet and on tape. He lined up all over the field and got to the action one way or another, proving his intelligence and athleticism. His slight frame will need work if he is going to be playing between the tackles at the next level but his ability to factor in space and potential to be a credible every down linebacker is enough to hide his deficiencies. He is a new-age linebacker that doesn’t give up too much as a thumper.
*Dye was as the top of my senior LB stack last summer. I love this kid’s game and more important, I love his consistency. You know what you’re getting week to week. Dye is another current-age linebacker that will be more effective in space than he is in traffic, but he stays plays tough between the tackles. He won’t be a star, but he will contribute on special teams right away and offer some potential as a starting weak side presence.
7. Malik Harrison / Ohio State / 6'3 - 247
Grade: 77
Summary: Senior entry from Columbus, Ohio. Two year starter that earned 1st Team All Big 10 honors in 2019, Honorable Mention in 2018. Also 3rd Team All American as a senior. Harrison has the NFL-ready size and power presence to factor right away against the run. He can handle NFL offensive lineman with his combination of man-strength and top tier length. Once in the open field, he can really get moving with long stride speed, which will be an asset against athletic tight ends. He came to Ohio State as a former high school quarterback that wanted to play wide receiver for the Buckeyes, so that is the kind of athlete we are talking about here. He could end up projecting to the strong side in a 4-3 front long term as a starter with the option of providing some middle-type roles.
*Harrison is overlooked a bit when it comes to how freaky of an athlete he is. He has some of the best triangle numbers (height + weight + speed) at the position. Remember, this kid came to Ohio State to play wide receiver! When I watched his tape, I saw a lot of rawness, indecision, and inconsistency. But when he did line things up, when he did make proper reads, he looked dominant. Harrison is a high upside, really athletic linebacker that simply needs time to sit back on the depth chart and get acclimated. If it clicks, watch out. Really nice fit for NYG’s situation if they can find a way to get their hands on him round 3 or 4.
8. Jordyn Brooks / Texas Tech / 6’0 – 240
Grade: 77
Summary: Senior entry from Houston, Texas. Four-year starter that led Texas Tech in tackles three of those years. Honorable Mention All Big 12 in 2016, 2017, and 2018 respectively before going on to being named 1st Team All Big 12 and 2nd Team All American in 2019. Brooks is an aggressive, fast, attacking downhill defender that made 20 tackles for loss as a senior. That number was a tad inflated as he was almost-always sent on blitzes, but his athletic ability and closing style make him an attractive prospect. He is quick enough to factor in coverage, he just didn’t have a ton of experience in that role. Brooks has the ability to start in the NFL but at the very least will be a special teams contributor and plus-run defender.
*Brooks is going to be a gamble, I think some teams won’t even look at him. He has very little experience in coverage, he was purely a downhill guy. But there are still plenty of schemes that need the thumper inside and that he is. However he also brings 4.6 speed to the table, a nasty, physical guy. He screams Ravens to me. And I always love how their linebackers perform and help them win games.
9. Anfernee Jennings / Alabama / 6’2 – 256
Grade: 74
Summary: Fifth year senior from Dadeville, Alabama. Three year starter. 1st Team All SEC in 2019. Jennings has been a mainstay on the Tide’s defense for three seasons. He is one of the more versatile players in the class, as he has seen plenty of experience as an edge rusher and inside linebacker. He will likely make a full time move to middle as a two down thumper between the tackles that can add something as a pass rusher on 3rd down. He lacks standout physical traits, most notably when it comes to movement, but he is instinctive and tough. Smart players that have produced the way he has against the highest level of competition find a way on the field at the next level.
*Some are leaving an EDGE position on him, which is fine I guess. But we saw him move to off-ball linebacker a lot in 2019 and he spent the majority of Senior Bowl week there too. Jennings is really smart and really physical, I could see NE being all over this kid draft weekend early day 3. 25+ TFL and 13+ sacks over the past two years coming from Alabama? Can play inside as a thumper, can provide quality pass rush on 3rd down? Sign me up.
10. Willie Gay Jr. / Mississippi State / 6’1 – 243
Grade: 73
Summary: Junior entry from Starkville, Mississippi. Two year starter but only started 11 games total over his career. Missed a significant amount of time in 2019 because of academics. Gay was a explosive rushing quarterback in high school and it is easy to notice just how fast he can play on the defensive side. He is an aggressive downhill force that will make the offense adjust to him. He is not someone that a ball carrier wants to meet in space, as the power Gay brings upon force when he has a head start is as physical as it gets. There will need to be extra screening in regard to his off field habits, but he is a potential game changer if everything checks out and he learns the game a bit more.
*If the Giants are looking to take a risk at LB on day 3, this is the guy to go after. I had glowing game notes on Gay Jr and the comparison of Devin Bush came up multiple times. Short but stout, plus length for his frame, top-shelf speed. There is no denying that NYG needs more juice, more speed at the second level. Gay Jr blew the combine up, he is in the same tier athletically speaking as Simmons. He is as violent a player as you will find. There are a couple character red flags, however, and he only has 11 career starts. If NYG wants to turn their defense around, they are going to have to take a couple chances. This would be taking a chance but I feel good about it in round 4 or 5.
11. Dante Olson / Montana / 6’2 – 237
Grade: 71
Summary: Fifth year senior from Medford, Oregon. Two year starter that certainly made the most of those two years. Set, and the re-set, the all time single season record for tackles in program history. A two time FCS All American and the recipient of the Big Sky Defensive Player of the Year Award. Buck Buchanon Award winner finalist in 2018 and 2019 respectively, given to the top defensive player of the year in FCS. Olson is the son of a coach with really good speed and a finisher’s mentality. He runs around like he’s on fire and with the demands of today’s linebacker in the pros, he could be a sneaky-good fit. He lacks some important agility-based movement skills but he can be molded in to a quality player in time. At the very least, he will be a stud-special teamer.
*Olson won’t impress anybody with his tools, but they are good enough and he has the combination of intelligence and toughness on the field to factor. He would be a reliable backup and quality special teamer. My question, in relation to the Giants, would center around how “multiple” he can be. I see a weak side / middle guy only. Every team has a linebacker like him, but I can see why some would rather go for someone faster. I saw him at Shrine and was impressed, I am keeping him near the top of this cluster of mid to late day 3 linebackers.
12. Shaquille Quarterman / Miami / 6’1 – 234
Grade: 71
Summary: Senior entry from Orange Park, Florida. Four year starter that finished All-ACC every season, including the 1st Team honor in both 2018 and 2019. Quarterman evolved in to the Alpha Male of the Miami defense over his final two years, producing at a high level against both the run and pass. He has the kind of intelligence and on-field IQ that every good linebacker possesses and he knows how to finish. While he is a bit of a throwback that may currently struggle to play in space against the passing game, he still has the potential and even likelihood to make an impact. He shows stiffness but if a scheme can hide that a bit, he will help a defense much more than hurt it. He will be in the league for a long time and likely start at some point.
*A lot of people were juiced up about this kid before and during his freshman season. I feel like he’s been at Miami for a decade. 52 starts, a ton of tackles, multiple schemes, and a true leader of the group. I got to speak with him down at St. Pete during Shrine week and came away really impressed. He won’t add a lot of athleticism to the group though, he isn’t that big, and he may be a 2-down guy. The physical upside isn’t good enough for me to use anything more than a 3rd day pick here.
13. Tanner Muse / Clemson / 6’2 – 227
Grade: 71
Summary: Fifth year senior entry from Belmont, North Carolina. Three year starter that earned 3rd Team All ACC honors in 2018, 1st Team in 2019. Also a 3rd Team All American as a senior. Muse looks too tight to stay at safety, as his hips and feet just don’t move well enough to be trusted in coverage against pro receivers. However he shows potential as a cover linebacker that can handle the running game from the weak side. The winner of the Special Teams Player of the Year Award at Clemson in 2016, Muse brings the kind of straight line speed and power-impact to make an impact in that department at the next level and his role on defense will need to be specific but he has proven to be a factor against the pass if he is protected.
*I have no issues with those that label Muse a late day 2 pick. He has some old school, blue collar in him but don’t look past the fact he is incredibly fast and explosive. Ohio State running back JK Dobbins out-ran Isaiah Simmons in space during the CFB playoffs, Muse caught him from behind. Then he went to the combine and ran a 4.41. Muse is too tight to play safety in my eyes, but he is more than physical enough for linebacker duty and his coverage for the position would be considered a plus. I have this mid to late day 3 grade here, but I’ll say this, his versatility, intelligence, and physical nature could be an exact fit for what NYG plans to do on defense. Look for this kid draft weekend.
14. Davvion Taylor / Colorado / 6’1 – 228
Grade: 70
Summary: Senior entry from Magnolia, Mississippi. Two year starter that spent two seasons in junior college prior to transferring to Colorado in 2018. Finished with Honorable Mention All Pac 12 honors as a senior. Also an accomplished sprinter for the Colorado track team. Taylor has as interesting a background as anyone in the class. Because of religious beliefs, he was not allowed to play in football games Fridays or Saturdays during high school until his senior year. Thus, he was under-recruited and simply did not bank much football experience. After two impressive seasons in junior college, Colorado scooped him up and put him in to the starting lineup 20 games over 2 years. Taylor had a hard time finding a permanent home in regard to position, but his speed was top shelf and he flashed playmaking ability from time to time. He is still very much considered a developmental player that is incredibly raw, but he has elite special teams potential and could mold in to a quality weak side, space-happy linebacker down the road.
*One of the more unique prospects in the class considering his background and tools. Many are putting this kid in to the day 2 tier because of his strength and speed. He is an excellent run and chase guy but I don’t see instincts or flow to the action. I thought he looked out of place at the Senior Bowl. While I do respect the upside here that stems from his frame and speed, he is a project.
15. Jacob Phillips / LSU / 6’3 – 229
Grade: 70
Summary: Senior entry from Nashville, Tennessee. Two year starter that finished second on the team in tackles in 2018, first in 2019. After sitting behind Devin White for two years, a future top 10 pick, Phillips took over the job in the middle of the Tigers defense and excelled. He was a 5-star recruit coming out of high school and flashed over his two seasons. The straight line speed, attractive frame, and sure tackling is sure to catch the eyes of defensive coaches that want to try and develop a player for a year or two. He shows weaknesses in coverage but he physical upside is there to warrant the idea he could improve enough in that area. He is a day three pick that has the upside of a starter, ideally in a scheme that can let him run around and chase.
*Phillips isn’t in the same tier as a some of these recent LSU linebackers, but I think he is a reliable bet to provide quality depth and special teams play. He plays smart, he works hard, he is very coachable. Don’t forget he was a 5-star recruit and even though one could argue he had an underwhelming career, he was an important piece these past two seasons. Not a good cover linebacker but he will be reliable against the run.
16. Mykal Walker / Fresno State: 70
17. Francis Bernard / Utah: 70
18. Evan Weaver / California: 70
19. Cam Brown / Penn State: 69
20. Jordan Mack / Virginia: 69
21. Khaleke Hudson / Michigan: 69
22. Justin Strnad / Wake Forest: 69
23. Michael Divinity / LSU: 69
24. Michael Pinckney / Miami: 68
25. Jordan Glasgow / Michigan: 68
NYG APPROACH
For the record, I could talk about the possible Simmons selection for an hour straight, it is fascinating. I won’t go too deep here, as we can discuss further in the comments, but I will echo what I stated earlier. NYG can certainly go for him at #4 and I won’t say a negative thing about it. But so much of his potential, even more so than other prospects, will be based on how the team would use him. Build the scheme around him, do not try to fit him in to a scheme. This coaching staff yelled from the top of the mountains that they want to be able to change their scheme week to week to exploit the opponent’s weaknesses. Simmons is quite literally the kind of player that can change week to week based on what the team needs, and he can do so at a high level. However, if they put him at ILB routinely, he will get crushed because his instincts are average at best and he plays high. If they put him at EDGE routinely, he will get crushed because he doesn’t have an array of rush moves and he doesn’t use his hands well in that situation. If they put him at safety routinely, he will get crushed because he is high hipped and doesn’t play more athletic than NFL receivers like he did in college.
As for the rest of the LB group, whether they draft Simmons or not, speed needs to be added. Connelly, Martinez, and Mayo can get the job done against the run but they are going to get exposed when true speed and coverage are needed. If you need to convert 3rd and 5, attack those guys and a good passing game will almost always come out on top especially on a team that lacks quality pass rushers. This draft’s LB group as a whole is a little thin after those top 7-8 guys. Because it is such a scheme-based position, NYG doesn’t have to rush here. They can be patient, wait for value (even if it is round 7), and add the athleticism there.
You have opened a Pandora's box here(or rather re-enforced it). The pro-Simmons at #4 group will rejoice and the pro Oline group will see that he cannot play a single traditional position well enough to stay put.
Like many I am on the fence or more correctly, I will be happy whichever way the Giants draft. I'd have to trust that Judge and Graham could get the scheme correct weekly and I suppose Peppers would have to be his backup(or Love) for breathers or injury. Of course a IL visit changes everything.
Why would that be better? You have either the 1st or 2nd highest rated guy in the draft in Simmons (presume Young to be #1) vs a later round player. A near All Pro rated player vs a good player.
How is that better?
Thx for a great writeup today
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Resources to use a later pick on Gay or Muse (or maybe both) than on Simmons?
Why would that be better? You have either the 1st or 2nd highest rated guy in the draft in Simmons (presume Young to be #1) vs a later round player. A near All Pro rated player vs a good player.
How is that better?
This. I rarely see Sy rate players in the 88+ range. If so, they have something special in them. By all means if one of the OL rate just as high then you have an argument, but most agree you don’t draft purely on need, Simmons very well if he is available is most likely going to be the BPA.
Alleviates my worries about Flowers 2.0, that coaches and GM killer pick Flowers was phenomenonally bad, part of an extremely poor roster building strategy. Set the team back 5 years.
Giants can easily find their cover LB this year and then allow him to get a bit bigger/stronger to take on a more full-time role over time.
Hopefully that will ease some of the pain of many here when Giants pass on Simmons at #4.
Sy, Thanks again...very insightful.
Chase Young is a LB, though I'm assuming he's graded with the EDGE players.
We're taking Simmons at #4.
My guess is we won't even trade down, unless a team really offered us something special.
I’m all over Murray and have been for months. To me he’s the second coming of Patrick Willis and I like that comp for him. He’s also extremely violent in the way he plays and brings a whole new dimension to a team.
Simmons sounds like the queen on a chessboard and the ideal player for a coach like Judge who wants to scheme differently week to week.
If Simmons is special and the tackles are just good solid players, take Simmons.
I'll be shocked if Sy has any of the offensive lineman with an equal or higher grade then what he gave Simmons.
I feel like that dude, if he were on Alabama or Clemson, he'd be thought of in a much better light.
Murray is a plug and play and can also play multiple positions. He can definitely defend Tight Ends, backs and blitz. He’s also a much more physical and violent tackler.
What would Simmons be compared to?
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Resources to use a later pick on Gay or Muse (or maybe both) than on Simmons?
Why would that be better? You have either the 1st or 2nd highest rated guy in the draft in Simmons (presume Young to be #1) vs a later round player. A near All Pro rated player vs a good player.
How is that better?
Because the cost (#4 pick) vs a later round pick is so much larger and because you need to prioritize positions for proper roster management.
Simmons isn't a freebie. If you pick Simmons, you are also selecting not to upgrade an absymal OL. That choice will hinder the development and performance of Jones and Barkley. You may also permanently stunt Jones' career. I think the David Carr Syndrome is something every Giants fan should be very concerned about.
But if you pick Gay or Muse, you are potentially upgrading that part of the defense without making a painful choice to hang Jones and Barkley out to dry.
I think Aaron Curry may have been higher
But instead let's pick a speed/athletic guy to shore up a problem that could be helped another way.
It's the type of selection this team has been making for the last decade and that has turned the franchise into hot garbage. The only way picking Simmons will stand the test of time is if he turns into a perennial All pro. And even then it may be a mistake.
Murray is a plug and play and can also play multiple positions. He can definitely defend Tight Ends, backs and blitz. He’s also a much more physical and violent tackler.
What would Simmons be compared to?
He did not say he could not defend the run. He said he could not hold the edge consistently as OLB nor is he a stay at home ILB for entire game. He needs to attack from different positions to confuse the offense. But what we do not know, is if with better coaching at the NFL level if he could learn to do that.
Yes, sounds like Murray is the traditional ILB but in a Kuechly type roll and then I think maybe he would be the better choice.
And Murray's 6'2" 241 is significantly different than Simmons' 6'4" 238. Much more in keeping with the history of successful NFL defenders.
Murray also had a great combine himself.
Depends on what one thinks of the offensive lineman. Flowers and Pugh were Reese selections who most believed to be reaches to fill a screaming need. There are different ways to look at it.
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In comment 14857999 cosmicj said:
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Resources to use a later pick on Gay or Muse (or maybe both) than on Simmons?
Why would that be better? You have either the 1st or 2nd highest rated guy in the draft in Simmons (presume Young to be #1) vs a later round player. A near All Pro rated player vs a good player.
How is that better?
Because the cost (#4 pick) vs a later round pick is so much larger and because you need to prioritize positions for proper roster management.
Simmons isn't a freebie. If you pick Simmons, you are also selecting not to upgrade an absymal OL. That choice will hinder the development and performance of Jones and Barkley. You may also permanently stunt Jones' career. I think the David Carr Syndrome is something every Giants fan should be very concerned about.
But if you pick Gay or Muse, you are potentially upgrading that part of the defense without making a painful choice to hang Jones and Barkley out to dry.
Thank you Cosmic. I've made the point of David Carr syndrome repeatedly.
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In comment 14857999 cosmicj said:
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Resources to use a later pick on Gay or Muse (or maybe both) than on Simmons?
Why would that be better? You have either the 1st or 2nd highest rated guy in the draft in Simmons (presume Young to be #1) vs a later round player. A near All Pro rated player vs a good player.
How is that better?
Because the cost (#4 pick) vs a later round pick is so much larger and because you need to prioritize positions for proper roster management.
Simmons isn't a freebie. If you pick Simmons, you are also selecting not to upgrade an absymal OL. That choice will hinder the development and performance of Jones and Barkley. You may also permanently stunt Jones' career. I think the David Carr Syndrome is something every Giants fan should be very concerned about.
But if you pick Gay or Muse, you are potentially upgrading that part of the defense without making a painful choice to hang Jones and Barkley out to dry.
This is flawed logic. So our LB core is not also abysmal? Name one LB on our unit that you have confidence in? Name an edge rusher you have confidence in? Name a FS you have confidence in? Simmons can play every one of those positions better than anyone we have currently. There will be other OL depth in the draft. You are assuming that there is going to be a sure rated OL up there with Simmons, if so then by all means should we take him. But to pass on an elite rated player for one that is average to fill one of many needs is how bottom feeder teams draft.
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SYs second highest graded LB ever after Myles Jack.
I think Aaron Curry may have been higher
And Aaron Curry is now simply the answer to a trivia question.
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In comment 14857999 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Resources to use a later pick on Gay or Muse (or maybe both) than on Simmons?
Why would that be better? You have either the 1st or 2nd highest rated guy in the draft in Simmons (presume Young to be #1) vs a later round player. A near All Pro rated player vs a good player.
How is that better?
Because the cost (#4 pick) vs a later round pick is so much larger and because you need to prioritize positions for proper roster management.
Simmons isn't a freebie. If you pick Simmons, you are also selecting not to upgrade an absymal OL. That choice will hinder the development and performance of Jones and Barkley. You may also permanently stunt Jones' career. I think the David Carr Syndrome is something every Giants fan should be very concerned about.
But if you pick Gay or Muse, you are potentially upgrading that part of the defense without making a painful choice to hang Jones and Barkley out to dry.
Reverse your argument - taking an OL is not helping the defense. I think it comes down to, which choice more improves that side of the ball? Close choice, but Simmons likely improves the defense more than Wirfs improves the offense. One could argue that a center will more improve the offense then a tackle.
I give little credence to the David Carr theme. This line is better than that Raider's line, not much though. I don't find it that compelling an argument, anyway. Plus having the defense get off the field more frequently helps the offense not play from behind. The Giants defense was far worse than the Giants offense. Believe me, I know they need improvements up front. And, I will be almost just as happy with Wirfs at #4. But they still need a real starting center to go with the OT selected.
And if you look at the rating for Muse or Gay you are drafting a backup player or special team player. Could they be better than that? IDK, maybe.
At #4 a team needs an impact player. Does Wirfs or one of the other OTs meet that criteria? Not likely. They would certainly help.
This is a very tough call.
I don't think I want that type of risk personally. Not at #4. I'd almost rather have a tone setter like Murray.
While I don’t want to come across as “pro Simmons”, we know nothing about what this staff is. Saying you don’t trust them is a weird statement that isn’t based off anything.
This is flawed logic. So our LB core is not also abysmal? Name one LB on our unit that you have confidence in? Name an edge rusher you have confidence in? Name a FS you have confidence in? Simmons can play every one of those positions better than anyone we have currently. There will be other OL depth in the draft. You are assuming that there is going to be a sure rated OL up there with Simmons, if so then by all means should we take him. But to pass on an elite rated player for one that is average to fill one of many needs is how bottom feeder teams draft.
This is where I’m at. I don’t pretend to know better than the Giants staff or Sy so let the pros make that determination. But if you use the fourth pick on a guy who winds up like Eric Fisher, Luke Joeckel, Greg Robinson, Flowers etc then you’re really gonna destroy Jones because you wind up sticking with the high pick for a minimum of two years even if they’re hot garbage.
You DON’T trust a staff that was just put together? How would you know whether to trust them or not?
I was actually thinking the same thing. But even an additional 2nd rounder after a trade back, would there be an OT at #36?
Obviously you think that moving him around will cover his weaknesses, but I wonder what you think his bust potential compared to other prospects, even if he goes to a team willing to scheme around him?
I'm reminded of Reggie Bush, another guy who had recognized limitations as a pure running back coming out, but was widely believed to be the ultimate weapon if "utilized properly." He was always a featured player in the NFL (under some very creative offensive minds) but never rose to the heights that people imagined for him coming out of the draft.
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In comment 14858001 section125 said:
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In comment 14857999 cosmicj said:
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Resources to use a later pick on Gay or Muse (or maybe both) than on Simmons?
Why would that be better? You have either the 1st or 2nd highest rated guy in the draft in Simmons (presume Young to be #1) vs a later round player. A near All Pro rated player vs a good player.
How is that better?
Because the cost (#4 pick) vs a later round pick is so much larger and because you need to prioritize positions for proper roster management.
Simmons isn't a freebie. If you pick Simmons, you are also selecting not to upgrade an absymal OL. That choice will hinder the development and performance of Jones and Barkley. You may also permanently stunt Jones' career. I think the David Carr Syndrome is something every Giants fan should be very concerned about.
But if you pick Gay or Muse, you are potentially upgrading that part of the defense without making a painful choice to hang Jones and Barkley out to dry.
Reverse your argument - taking an OL is not helping the defense. I think it comes down to, which choice more improves that side of the ball? Close choice, but Simmons likely improves the defense more than Wirfs improves the offense. One could argue that a center will more improve the offense then a tackle.
I give little credence to the David Carr theme. This line is better than that Raider's line, not much though. I don't find it that compelling an argument, anyway. Plus having the defense get off the field more frequently helps the offense not play from behind. The Giants defense was far worse than the Giants offense. Believe me, I know they need improvements up front. And, I will be almost just as happy with Wirfs at #4. But they still need a real starting center to go with the OT selected.
And if you look at the rating for Muse or Gay you are drafting a backup player or special team player. Could they be better than that? IDK, maybe.
At #4 a team needs an impact player. Does Wirfs or one of the other OTs meet that criteria? Not likely. They would certainly help.
This is a very tough call.
Section, you are confusing David Carr, who was selected with the first pick by the Texans, and battered to the point he was shell-shocked from playing behind a poor OL, with his kid brother Derek Carr who plays for the Raiders.
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However, if they put him at ILB routinely, he will get crushed because his instincts are average at best and he plays high. If they put him at EDGE routinely, he will get crushed because he doesn’t have an array of rush moves and he doesn’t use his hands well in that situation. If they put him at safety routinely, he will get crushed because he is high hipped and doesn’t play more athletic than NFL receivers like he did in college.
Obviously you think that moving him around will cover his weaknesses, but I wonder what you think his bust potential compared to other prospects, even if he goes to a team willing to scheme around him?
I'm reminded of Reggie Bush, another guy who had recognized limitations as a pure running back coming out, but was widely believed to be the ultimate weapon if "utilized properly." He was always a featured player in the NFL (under some very creative offensive minds) but never rose to the heights that people imagined for him coming out of the draft.
Never thought much of Reggie Bush. I knew he was too small to be a #1 RB in the NFL.
Then we have bigger problems then who we pick at 4 and are about to waste another 3 season at least.
Then we have bigger problems then who we pick at 4 and are about to waste another 3 season at least.
Bingo. I have full confidence until they prove otherwise. If you are of the opinion you don’t trust this brand new staff, we are fu*^%ed, and will be for a long time.
Can you pass along your tape to those guys:)
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Talent
Then we have bigger problems then who we pick at 4 and are about to waste another 3 season at least.
Bingo. I have full confidence until they prove otherwise. If you are of the opinion you don’t trust this brand new staff, we are fu*^%ed, and will be for a long time.
I'm glad you still have blind faith and trust in the Giants front office decision making on new coaches. Forgive me if the McAdoo and Shurmur experiences temper my blind faith in new coaching staffs.
He gets crushed" - hardly an endorsement for a 1st round pick.
Quite simply, he's too smart, too fast, too long, too instinctual to not have success in the NFL. The question isn't "will Simmons be good in the NFL", it's, "how freaking good is Simmons going to be in the NFL?"
Sy, I was looking forward to this one, and had a sneaking suspicion you were going to love Simmons, because of previous write-ups I've read from you, most notably and memorably your eval of Myles Jack.
Needless to say, I couldn't agree more. And spot on with using Simmons in a variety of ways. Sure, you could just put Simmons at ILB and leave him there, but why would you? It would be malpractice! You have a guy like that, you are able to throw all kinds of looks at the defense.
Kudos to the poster who said he's like the queen on the chessboard. That's a great analogy...would be even better if there wasn't another highly regarded linebacker in this draft NAMED Queen, but great description nonetheless.
And one thing for the doubters that you touched on and something I also have mentioned here... look what Kyler Murray did to us last year. Look what Lamar Jackson is doing to everyone. Pat Mahomes, Russell Wilson, DeShaun Watson...Simmons is your answer to those guys, in a league that doesn't really have many, or any, guys like him.
And this to me is the most important: "doesn’t play more athletic than NFL receivers like he did in college." This isn't college.
To me, nothing to do with OL vs. LB need. I just can't see taking a player like this with the #4 pick in the draft.
I don't think I want that type of risk personally. Not at #4. I'd almost rather have a tone setter like Murray.
I don't think he's boom or bust. I think his "floor" is as a guy like Cory Littleton, solid coverage LB with sideline-to-sideline speed. But you probably need a coaching staff with creative schemes and even strong in game adjustments to maximize his potential (which is sky-high). He'd have All Pro potential under BB (or a few others), but who knows what we have in Judge/Graham.
Your reviews are a ray of sunshine. Much appreciated.
Question:
Given that you feel Isaiah Simmons will get crushed if he plays "routinely" at ILB, EDGE and Safety, is he a natural WILL in the NFL?
Or, a team must continually move him around play-to-play, game-to-game?
we did not hire bill b to be our coach. or nick saban. we hired joe judge (and the track record of former new england coaches under bill is VERY poor). mike vrabel was not a coach on the pats for those wondering.
so yes i'm very concerned about the giants drafting this player because i 100% agree with Sy about simmons limitations. and if simmonns is in the wrong system he will not be this transcendent player like some here think he is.
i'm not saying joe judge will suck. but this player is not someone that is easy to coach or develop a plan for. and i'd hate to see this team use the 4th pick in an extremely talented draft on someone they don't know how to use properly.
and don't give me this crap like they have a plan for him. shurmur said the same shit about barkley and we saw how great that plan was.
Link - ( New Window )
If you put him at edge, the offense doesn’t know if he’s rushing, spying, Manning the TE, apexing out on any motion, or just playing flat to curl zone.
If you him at safety, you don’t know if he’s blitzing, robbing the curl, playing the deep half, the deep third, spying, or manning up.
The point I think Sy is trying to make is that the defense needs to move him around to take away certain strengths of the offense, making them one dimensional on a play by play basis.
If he sits at one position, then the offense is going to try and attack him. You can only attack him by pulling some guards, down blocking a te and running down his throat, but an offense can’t attack him if they don’t know where he’ll be.
It also helps that the rest of his teammates are already great run defenders.
I respect the crowd that says he isn't a LB, but we have to understand that the NFL has changed and we need a guy with Simmons' skill set. Pass rushers are premium and hard to find, and it is hard to find a guy that can wreck blocking schemes. Finding a guy that can play man to man on anybody and knows how to take angles and open field tackle, also knows how to blitz and spy, is just as hard.
He will be a great Giant....if he is available.
If the FO is meeting with the defensive coaches and they're coming to the table with a real plan for him...I'd pull the trigger unless they've got a blue chip grade at LT.
But you know we don’t impact what’s happening on the field right?
It doesn’t matter whether or not You have trust in a HC and staff the minute you hire them. Because they are empowered as HC and the staff to make decisions.
Us sitting home saying we have “blind trust” or “trust” in them matters not a whim
What’s the logic here?
Lets take the lesser talent player (and no OL is getting a higher than 89 grade) to fill a “need” so the coaching staff can’t muck it up?
How far exactly do you think that will take you? Leaser talent players with a bad staff that can’t scheme to any advantage?
That’s how you undermine your HC and staff and you never give them the tools they need to build their vision and then you fire them 3 years for losing.
That’s how bad teams stay bad.
We hired a HC and staff. Trust maters not. They are the decision makers and we sink or swim based on those decisions.
You win by supporting the people that you hired with the things they need to succeed, then you judge them on the results,
Joe Judge said he wanted to a build a team that adapts to the team he is playing and can use different schemes week in and week out,
Isaiah Simmons seems to be exactly the type of rare talent that could be the face of that scheme.
He is likely to be the highest graded player on the board if he is there when we pick and he happens to fil a need we have on this team for years and he happens to support the vision of the HC for this team. .
We should thank our lucky stars if Simmons is on the board at 4 when we pick and we should take him and run and see if Judge can actually build his vision.
That’s how you win. And then you hope it all works out.
Simmons is too risky at 4, especially for a GM on the hot seat. You don’t take “if you use him right” guys top 5. You take guys top 5 that you know exactly what they’re going to be for your franchise.
I feel like that dude, if he were on Alabama or Clemson, he'd be thought of in a much better light.
I respect the comparison - at the same time I would say Armstead may have slightly less success in today's NFL.
Disagree that he would be graded higher coming from Bama/Clemson . He is a lesser prospect that BJ Goodson, who was a 4th rounder.
I'm gonna wait to answer that one - I will get to it though before there draft.
Murray is a plug and play and can also play multiple positions. He can definitely defend Tight Ends, backs and blitz. He’s also a much more physical and violent tackler.
What would Simmons be compared to?
Because I think he can have a similar career to those 2, thats how.
I did NOT say Simmons "can't" defend the run. He is actually a weapon against the run when it comes to run and chase. He has more range than any LB, he maintainability good power on the move, he doesn't miss much, and he has a loose lower half to adjust late.
Murray is decent in coverage - he is not Simmons there. Not close.
And Murray's 6'2" 241 is significantly different than Simmons' 6'4" 238. Much more in keeping with the history of successful NFL defenders.
Murray also had a great combine himself.
Murray measure 6'2 and 4/8
Simmons measured 6'3 and 5/8
They are one inch apart height wise.
Simmons arms measured 5/8 of an inch longer than Murray
I do - and I think it is a great fit. Won't be rushed in to action right away, let him develop a bit. Take advantage of is tools when you can - put him in the starting lineup as soon as 2021.
Can you pass along your tape to those guys:)
Simmons avoids contact because he can, not because he is soft. Remember, the point of playing LB and S is to AVOID getting touched by blockers. Simmons is not stout, I will say that, but he plays hard an physical. I have several examples of him engaging and shedding blockers via his twitch, length, and effective hand work.
It works flipside though because Simmons makes the whole defense better. How many times are we going to cover all the routes outside just to have a TE torch us in the middle. How many times did Leonard Williams get a quick beat to the qb just for him to dump it off in less than 3 seconds.
A tackle makes the offense better and Simmons makes the d better, the question is projected total impact. Which I can’t answer
And this to me is the most important: "doesn’t play more athletic than NFL receivers like he did in college." This isn't college.
To me, nothing to do with OL vs. LB need. I just can't see taking a player like this with the #4 pick in the draft.
The thing with Simmons - it is so much a scheme based thing. Graham and Juge want to be able to change their scheme weekly. 3-4 this week / 4-3 next week / 6-2 the week after. They want a guy that can blanket TEs this series but spy the QB next series, and then cover a slot WR the next.
Problem is, those guys don't exist. Schemes are limited to what they have on the field. Simmons is the rare guy that can do it all, and he can make plays from multiple roles. How many in the NFL can do this? 2? 3? It is a rare talent, rare potential
But the statement stands - if you peg him in to one hole (ILB, EDGE, S) you aren't maximizing him and you should not take him high.
Your reviews are a ray of sunshine. Much appreciated.
Question:
Given that you feel Isaiah Simmons will get crushed if he plays "routinely" at ILB, EDGE and Safety, is he a natural WILL in the NFL?
Or, a team must continually move him around play-to-play, game-to-game?
In this kind of NE-type scheme, I think he plays BUCK (pass rushing LB that needs to play SAM when they alter the front)
This is a role that can move him closer to the tight end, a role that can allow him to rush the passer, a role that can allow him to pursue in space.
It is also a role that allows him to drop in to SS role when they want to send Peppers on a blitz, it is a role that can put him near the slot when they want to stunt / cross up front, it is a role that can have him spy the QB with the SS taking over the TE in coverage.
Again, slightly above my pay grade - but that is my initial thought.
Here is my Summary on Strnad:
Summary: Fifth year senior entry from Palm Harbor, Florida. Two year starter that earned Honorable Mention All ACC honors in 2018 and an injury shortened 2019. Strnad is a new-age linebacker that has good size and length, good speed, and plus-instincts. He can be a really solid pass defender without giving up too much against the run, something every team is looking for now. He isn’t overly stout but he has proven to still be effective against the inside run with his ability to sneak by and under blockers. He can be a starting weak side linebacker within a year or two while he continues to enhance his size and power.
Have him in the round 6/7 area - but a guy that if he is in the right scheme could start
It works flipside though because Simmons makes the whole defense better. How many times are we going to cover all the routes outside just to have a TE torch us in the middle. How many times did Leonard Williams get a quick beat to the qb just for him to dump it off in less than 3 seconds.
A tackle makes the offense better and Simmons makes the d better, the question is projected total impact. Which I can’t answer
+1
The Giants are very far from being a championship contender. They have to build the pieces and it’s not gonna take one to two years. Either side could make an impact. The question is, who knows.
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"However, if they put him at ILB routinely, he will get crushed because his instincts are average at best and he plays high. If they put him at EDGE routinely, he will get crushed because he doesn’t have an array of rush moves and he doesn’t use his hands well in that situation. If they put him at safety routinely, he will get crushed because he is high hipped and However, if they put him at ILB routinely, he will get crushed because his instincts are average at best and he plays high. If they put him at EDGE routinely, he will get crushed because he doesn’t have an array of rush moves and he doesn’t use his hands well in that situation. If they put him at safety routinely, he will get crushed because he is high hipped and doesn’t play more athletic than NFL receivers like he did in college.."
And this to me is the most important: "doesn’t play more athletic than NFL receivers like he did in college." This isn't college.
To me, nothing to do with OL vs. LB need. I just can't see taking a player like this with the #4 pick in the draft.
The thing with Simmons - it is so much a scheme based thing. Graham and Juge want to be able to change their scheme weekly. 3-4 this week / 4-3 next week / 6-2 the week after. They want a guy that can blanket TEs this series but spy the QB next series, and then cover a slot WR the next.
Problem is, those guys don't exist. Schemes are limited to what they have on the field. Simmons is the rare guy that can do it all, and he can make plays from multiple roles. How many in the NFL can do this? 2? 3? It is a rare talent, rare potential
But the statement stands - if you peg him in to one hole (ILB, EDGE, S) you aren't maximizing him and you should not take him high.
Gotcha. Thanks again for these reports. and the Q&A
Derwin James is my best guess there. Some have mentioned Darious Leonard - who I had a top 10 overall grade on - but I think Simmons has more versatility and Leonard is better playing through traffic.
Two guys I didn't notice before the draft process got underway were Logan Wilson and Tanner Muse. Both impressed me with different aspects of their game, and I had hoped they might remain sufficiently under the radar to last until the mid rounds.
I have neither your knowledge or skills to evaluate prospects, and I spend only a tiny amount of time watching mainly highlight videos, so I'm getting only a small slice of their total play. But I like both in the roll you recommend.
One of the things that stood out to me on the highlight videos was the physicality of both players. Wilson is a banger, and was a tackling machine, so I'm surprised you saw he wasn't as adept at shedding blocks.
Muse has the speed, and though lighter is also physical. The other thing Muse seems to offer is possibly better ball skills than might be seen on other LB's. I didn't check his stats, but on the interceptions I saw, it looks like he's blessed with good hands, and could become a ball hawk over the middle of the field.
If you put him at edge, the offense doesn’t know if he’s rushing, spying, Manning the TE, apexing out on any motion, or just playing flat to curl zone.
If you him at safety, you don’t know if he’s blitzing, robbing the curl, playing the deep half, the deep third, spying, or manning up.
The point I think Sy is trying to make is that the defense needs to move him around to take away certain strengths of the offense, making them one dimensional on a play by play basis.
If he sits at one position, then the offense is going to try and attack him. You can only attack him by pulling some guards, down blocking a te and running down his throat, but an offense can’t attack him if they don’t know where he’ll be.
It also helps that the rest of his teammates are already great run defenders.
It would be fun to watch him used right. Kind of how LT lined up anywhere, but it was primarily on passing downs. Simmons can line up anywhere in the back 7 on any passing and run/pass down.
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Would you mind giving your take on the kid from WF Strnad? Thanks
Here is my Summary on Strnad:
Summary: Fifth year senior entry from Palm Harbor, Florida. Two year starter that earned Honorable Mention All ACC honors in 2018 and an injury shortened 2019. Strnad is a new-age linebacker that has good size and length, good speed, and plus-instincts. He can be a really solid pass defender without giving up too much against the run, something every team is looking for now. He isn’t overly stout but he has proven to still be effective against the inside run with his ability to sneak by and under blockers. He can be a starting weak side linebacker within a year or two while he continues to enhance his size and power.
Have him in the round 6/7 area - but a guy that if he is in the right scheme could start
The Logan Wilson grade is an eye opener. I haven’t seen much of him but will make it my business too.
Do the last 10 years: stopping them damn TEs, the RBs coming out of the backfield, and everything else in between. I’m tired of seeing a Blake Jarwin look like got damn Tony Gonzales because our LBers are mediocre, or a Tarik Cohen gash the hell outta us to a tune of 200 yards from scrimmage because we couldn’t cover him out in the flat. Smdh I truly don’t understand why a lot of y’all always want to settle for the lesser player when there’s a potential gold jacket player there for the taking.
But if you like an OT - it is hard to argue against NYG taking one. Not gonna say where I lean just yet - but you can't say either opinion is wrong.
I still think there's work to be done in free agency. However, I think you can argue these.
Cam Fleming and Nick Gates are good competition for each other at RT, and you add in the middle rounds another tackle. I do expect some kind of trade up with perhaps a 5th and a 7th or two, to add another 4th rounder. At least something like that.
You can get your C in the 2nd round, I think there's value there and that's the direction I would take if the draft falls the way I believe it will, unless there is a significant value. C is the most pressing need, IMO.
FS arguably isn't that much of a need, especially with the add of Simmons, because you can play him there some of the time (sparingly), but Julian Love has played there and I think the coaches (and I) believe he is good there, and will be the starter.
As far as Edge...I don't think the story is over there. I expect something to happen in free agency, and despite the recent story to the contrary, perhaps a reunion with Golden, OR they make a splash for Clowney...still could happen. Belichick in recent years has gone for mid-priced veteran guys at that spot, Judge may have the same philosophy. There are guys still on the market that fit that mold...Jabaal Sheard, who has experience with the Patriots would fit that mold. Ezekiel Ansah still on the market. Vinny Curry, Everson Griffen...I know these aren't exciting names in most cases but the Giants can dip into that pool of talent. A name that might be a fit on a one-year deal that would at the very least provide some passion and leadership on the field is Terrell Suggs. I know he's long...but he is always on a winner. And keep in mind that there will be plenty of situations where Simmons is going to come off the Edge as well. When this kid gets some additional coaching and learns some pass-rushing techniques and moves, and gets better with his hand play...he could actually be a terror off the Edge. I said it before, I'm not worried about his weight...those big lineman have to get their hands on him first...good luck with that, because he'll just beat them with speed.
I definitely covet some of the OTs at the top of the first round in this draft. However, I always remind myself that the draft is more than about next year. If you have a conviction that a guy is an All-Pro level talent, like I have on Simmons, do you pass on that for an OT that you think will be really good, perhaps also even All-Pro, but not the upside and impact to your team that Simmons will have? I'm not sure there is a wrong answer, but maybe a more right one.
I think Simmons is the right pick at 4, but again, if we could move down and get a top OT and more picks in the first, second, and/or third rounds, I think you can improve your team a lot that way too.
I still believe you win in the NFL by having the right superstars, elite level players, on your team. They are just better than what the other teams are going to have. So if I have the opportunity to get a SUPERB talent over several quality starter level talents, I am probably taking the superb talent. Probably.
I have the same conviction that Simmons is a game-wrecker as I had on Saquon Barkley. I think he's special. In fact, I think because of his versatility and the fact that he is so rare of a player, I'd take him over Chase Young. That's my belief on him.
Please take him off the board.
we did not hire bill b to be our coach. or nick saban. we hired joe judge (and the track record of former new england coaches under bill is VERY poor). mike vrabel was not a coach on the pats for those wondering.
so yes i'm very concerned about the giants drafting this player because i 100% agree with Sy about simmons limitations. and if simmonns is in the wrong system he will not be this transcendent player like some here think he is.
i'm not saying joe judge will suck. but this player is not someone that is easy to coach or develop a plan for. and i'd hate to see this team use the 4th pick in an extremely talented draft on someone they don't know how to use properly.
and don't give me this crap like they have a plan for him. shurmur said the same shit about barkley and we saw how great that plan was. Link - ( New Window )
Your point about Graham (in general) and his ill usage of Minkah Fitzpatrik are good ones and ones well worth considering.
I do as well...I think Jedrick Wills is as close to a slam-dunk very good starting OT in the NFL as you can ask for in the draft. But I also think Simmons makes our defense and team "mo'" betta than any OT in this draft.
If we went Simmons and all OL the rest of the whole draft I'd be happy. I know that's not going to happen, but what if the draft went this way:
Round 1 - Simmons
Round 2 - Ruiz
Round 3 - Ben Bartch
That's a good bet on a good OT that impressed at the Senior Bowl...maybe you get Saadiq Charles in the 4th... take a couple of guys at OT in those middle rounds.
I DO think Simmons is a gold jacket kind of player, I know JonC is not a believer, but I have watched enough of Simmons, not saying Jon hasn't, and I believe he is going to change games and change defenses.
I tend to think the backlash to his signing seemed a bit over the top but I concede that I hardly confident of my opinion.
He really checks every box. You and I see things very similar, I think.
This is a discussion that needs a separate thread so I will say only that Judge/Garrett/Graham come with no preconceived notion as to how this team is going to look. That's good but different than the last 2 coaching regimes. McAdoo brought in an offense that was implemented (by him) even before he became HC, and he brought Spags to implement a defense like we were all familiar with. Shurmur inherited McAdoo's offense, changed it a bit, but his marching orders were to tweak the offense and transition the team and the offense to fit the new QB without knowing who that would be. Bettcher was expected to bring the defensive scheme he developed at Arizona. Neither regime delivered what was expected.
There are no expectations for the new HC or the new regime. The only expectation of Judge is that he will be a good HC who will cajole, nudge and drag his staff and players to be competitive. No one knows what the defensive scheme will look like, although we all suspect it will look something like New England's. No one knows what the offense will look like, although we suspect it will look like Dallas's. Judge was either smart enough to not lock himself into any schemes or dumb enough not to have any clue.
Very valid point, but at the same time, the NE style defenses have leaned on strong corner play in recent years. Once Slay was traded DET had a gaping hole there, which is why Okudah makes sense.
At the same time, if they take Simmons, I'd think Okudah is in play for us with the same reasoning. With him and Bradberry on the outside we can move Baker into the slot where his long speed isn't exposed and have a pretty darn good set of cover corners. It would make it a lot easier for our poor pass rush to get to the QB.
With that being said, I'd still rather trade down a couple spots and take the best available OT in that position.
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Still not a gamble when you're going to get a high level Day 1 starter. You know who I'm talking about. I'm still not clear what you think his warts are. Compare him to the successful Top 10 OT's and he checks all the boxes. I remember this same stuff when Stanley and Lewan were coming out. Paralysis by over analysis. The early starting successes all have the same thing in common...technique.
He really checks every box. You and I see things very similar, I think.
If you gentleman are both referring to WIlls, I was astonished at his balance and footwork during the combine. I disagree with those that think only LT's should be drafted highly. IMO, RT are almost equally important these days. If you have a clean, intelligent, reliable RT that will start for your team for a decade it is a good damn pick.
I am the only one in my circle that feels Simmons to DET is still possible. Some are saying that the signing of Jamie Collins and trade for SS Duron Harmon wipes out Simmons, but I don't agree.
I tend to think the backlash to his signing seemed a bit over the top but I concede that I hardly confident of my opinion.
I wasn't aware there was any backlash.
Anyway - He is a good player. Reliable, often at the right place at the right time, good tackler, tough and hard nosed. Not gonna make a ton of plays, gets exposed up the seam in coverage.
He is an upgrade over Ogletree.
I am concerned about having to design the D around a non physical player. Where is he going to play on 3rd and short? I know people are really excited by his athleticism but for a guy with all that talent he didnt make as many impact plays as he should. He only had 16 Tackles for Loss ranking him 24 in the nation last year. When he hits people he doesnt pop them, hes a chase and drag guy. High ceiling low floor guy that would do real well with a talented D but I dont see him raising the talent around him and we dont have a talented D. I hope Washington or Detroit takes us off the hook.
I am concerned about having to design the D around a non physical player. Where is he going to play on 3rd and short? I know people are really excited by his athleticism but for a guy with all that talent he didnt make as many impact plays as he should. He only had 16 Tackles for Loss ranking him 24 in the nation last year. When he hits people he doesnt pop them, hes a chase and drag guy. High ceiling low floor guy that would do real well with a talented D but I dont see him raising the talent around him and we dont have a talented D. I hope Washington or Detroit takes us off the hook.
I wouldn't classify the Niners as a power run team. Their run game is based on deception and misdirection. The Ravens as well. The Cards completely gashed us on the ground last year, they didn't lineup in 2 TE and jam it right down our throats. They did it by spreading us out with multiple WR sets to make us smaller on defense and playing RPO off Murray. Simmons isn't a liability against these running attacks, he's an assett if you're using him properly.
There aren't a ton of teams playing "bully ball" anymore. Dallas and Tennessee are two of them, so you are right there but they're few and far between.
But instead let's pick a speed/athletic guy to shore up a problem that could be helped another way.
I suppose the need on defense isn't screaming -- it's outright howling in blood-curdling agony.
I am concerned about having to design the D around a non physical player. Where is he going to play on 3rd and short? I know people are really excited by his athleticism but for a guy with all that talent he didnt make as many impact plays as he should. He only had 16 Tackles for Loss ranking him 24 in the nation last year. When he hits people he doesnt pop them, hes a chase and drag guy. High ceiling low floor guy that would do real well with a talented D but I dont see him raising the talent around him and we dont have a talented D. I hope Washington or Detroit takes us off the hook.
Easy...safety or contain on the outside. Highest ceiling, high floor guy, actually.
I don’t know how many games the Giants lost last year and the year before on the last drive of the game or close to it. For the last 2 or 3 years, the defense has been borderline horrible’. They’ve added Bradbury, Martinez and Fackrell and lost Golden (& Jenkins & Ogletree). Who knows what we have in Beall even if he is healthy or Baker or Ballantine. Who knows what Connelly is capable of if healthy. With all the money spent in free agency, the defense, if its better at all, is a little better. I think Simmons or Okudah would be rated definitively higher than any offensive lineman in the draft and makes the team much better. If they are not available or trade down some’ that’s a different story.
I am concerned about having to design the D around a non physical player. Where is he going to play on 3rd and short? I know people are really excited by his athleticism but for a guy with all that talent he didnt make as many impact plays as he should. He only had 16 Tackles for Loss ranking him 24 in the nation last year. When he hits people he doesnt pop them, hes a chase and drag guy. High ceiling low floor guy that would do real well with a talented D but I dont see him raising the talent around him and we dont have a talented D. I hope Washington or Detroit takes us off the hook.
24th in the nation in TFL (or 1 less than Murray) despite playing 40% of his snaps at slot CB and you're using this to knock him?
I wrote him up - he is #29 on my board.
2 knee injuries. Plays stiff. Like him as a thumper, most teams will carry one of those guys but needs to factor on special teams. Just think there are several thumpers above him on the board.
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It still is a concern to me taking a player at 4 that is just a cover guy in Simmons. I think teams like SF, Tennessee and Dallas would eat him up with the power game. I like the gamble of Simmons a lot more after the top 10. At 4 I want a guy that can play in any scheme and is just a good football player not just good when he is in the right situation.
I am concerned about having to design the D around a non physical player. Where is he going to play on 3rd and short? I know people are really excited by his athleticism but for a guy with all that talent he didnt make as many impact plays as he should. He only had 16 Tackles for Loss ranking him 24 in the nation last year. When he hits people he doesnt pop them, hes a chase and drag guy. High ceiling low floor guy that would do real well with a talented D but I dont see him raising the talent around him and we dont have a talented D. I hope Washington or Detroit takes us off the hook.
Easy...safety or contain on the outside. Highest ceiling, high floor guy, actually.
I appreciate everyone opinion, we can agree to disagree. I'm not seeing enough of the big plays out of him when it counts for a guy as athletic as him. the guys that have dominated in the NFL are usually very physical. Very rare to see a guy thats not physical dominate. PrimeTime Sanders was one, I cant think of another. I think he will be a good pro I just don't see the game changer that others see and guys in the NFL are bigger, faster and stronger, you cant just get by on athleticism like you can in college. He wasn't dominant in the bigger games which is a big red flag for me. Your stars have to show up in the big games.
He looks like someone that can come in and go to the pro bowl year in, year out.
I'd be interested by he didn't make your list at all.
If you flip it around to the other side of the ball there are few players you could say you can't game plan against them. As explosive as OBJ or Saquon are we've seen first hand that without the right game plan you could make them disappear.
Simmons is no different. I think his value as a spy cannot be lost for one there is so much you have to do around a mobile QB now that can open up other holes in your D. Look no further than Lamar Jackson for that.
But Simmons is a weapon. It keeps on coming up with us but today's NFL especially is about multiple looks and keeping your opponent guessing. There aren't many players in the NFL like Simmons in terms of how well he could help you show a different look than have him surprise the offense with what he's doing on a play without him being a liability.
IMO if the offense knows what you are going to do you have bigger problems than Simmons being blockable. If you want to keep an offense off balance a player like Simmons gives you a unique advantage to do that, a player that teams aren't running drills to account for week in week out because his skill set is quite uncommon and you won't get as many practice reps preparing for gameplans that include them.
This is one example but you see it as a pattern when you watch full games. There isnt enough fight in him in my opinion.
Link - ( New Window )
This is one example but you see it as a pattern when you watch full games. There isnt enough fight in him in my opinion. Link - ( New Window )
I agree completely.
We have so many holes and while I like Simmons as a "role player" and all, a guy who can spy today's NFL running QB's and such, he does have some question marks too.
If we trade down to say #6 and get a #2 as well I still think we get a quality guy, probably an OL, and take a quality WR who falls with the 2nd round pick. We definitely can use an OC and OT, for sure, but its a question of value when you pick.
The draft can't come fast enough for me.
This is one example but you see it as a pattern when you watch full games. There isnt enough fight in him in my opinion. Link - ( New Window )
You do realize that Simmons has C gap on that play right? If he tries to double gap, Dobbins will go outside and it’s Simmons job to force Dobbins back to his help.
Did you miss the part where #7 got Reached out of his B Gap?
Even if #7 gets reached, #47 didn’t get blocked and should be free to clean it up. But let’s blame this on Simmons, who is about the only player on his team playing this action the right way.
Shaking my head.
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I am concerned about having to design the D around a non physical player. Where is he going to play on 3rd and short? I know people are really excited by his athleticism but for a guy with all that talent he didnt make as many impact plays as he should. He only had 16 Tackles for Loss ranking him 24 in the nation last year. When he hits people he doesnt pop them, hes a chase and drag guy. High ceiling low floor guy that would do real well with a talented D but I dont see him raising the talent around him and we dont have a talented D. I hope Washington or Detroit takes us off the hook.
24th in the nation in TFL (or 1 less than Murray) despite playing 40% of his snaps at slot CB and you're using this to knock him?
That's ba great stat...keeping in mind he spent time not just a nickel but as a deep Safety as well.
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Look at the play where it says Dobbins breaks free for a huge gain. He is playing left end/outside LB. The OT doesnt really block him hard but he completely gives up on the play. With his speed he should be chasing down guys until they score. This was a big game against Ohio State where you need to be giving everything. Also the other long run early where he is completely unaware that its a run play despite the WR basically giving up.
This is one example but you see it as a pattern when you watch full games. There isnt enough fight in him in my opinion. Link - ( New Window )
You do realize that Simmons has C gap on that play right? If he tries to double gap, Dobbins will go outside and it’s Simmons job to force Dobbins back to his help.
Did you miss the part where #7 got Reached out of his B Gap?
Even if #7 gets reached, #47 didn’t get blocked and should be free to clean it up. But let’s blame this on Simmons, who is about the only player on his team playing this action the right way.
Shaking my head.
I am not blaming him for the big plays. The 1st one he gives up. No fight to get back in while the OT gives little effort to block him. The 2nd again not blaming him for the big play. The awareness isn't there. No recognition that it's a running play.
This is a small sample but I see it in other games and this was a championship game. I see this guy make great plays and then he disappears. Like I said, at 4 I want more pop on D. What I don't know is if he studies to get better or is he relying on just his physical gifts. If we take him I hope I'm wrong and I hope as Sy says they use him correctly. I had no confidence in the last staff but the guy also has to want it.
Let’s take a step back here, there’s only 2 linebackers that I know of, to come out in the last 6 years that can double gap a tackle and still make that tackle on Dobbins, their names are Khalil Mack and Chase Young. And neither of them are even coming close to making his game winning interception playing deep half safety.
This is the type of prospect we’re talking about here, someone who will hold their own in a C gap and create takeaways as a deep half safety. If you can’t see the potential in that, then I don’t know what to say
Joe Haden was the first to come to my mind. He was taken #7 with 4.52 40 at the combine.
Those are mostly hindsight observations. In the lead up to the draft that year he was touted as the next great running back in same vein as Barry Sanders. Even those that acknowledged his struggles running between the tackles thought that his versatility and pass catching ability would make him unstoppable if he was used properly. It was a shock when the Texans went with Mario Williams at #1 and everyone thought the Saints with Sean Payton's offensive creativity was a match made in heaven. The rest is history.
I saw a lot of him in person in college, and while I saw explosion and open field creativity, I thought his game would suffer with the step up in competition. But I was certainly in the minority back then.
Let’s take a step back here, there’s only 2 linebackers that I know of, to come out in the last 6 years that can double gap a tackle and still make that tackle on Dobbins, their names are Khalil Mack and Chase Young. And neither of them are even coming close to making his game winning interception playing deep half safety.
This is the type of prospect we’re talking about here, someone who will hold their own in a C gap and create takeaways as a deep half safety. If you can’t see the potential in that, then I don’t know what to say
Thank you for your insight! Most of us don't know our X's and O's and rely on vision and recaps to determine a player's effectiveness. Simmons has to be the pick at #4. This should be a player that the coaching staff designs the defense around to utilize his athleticism, speed and explosiveness. LT changed the game and Harry Carson supported him by running the defense and giving him the flexibility to be the greatest of all time. Not saying Simmons will be LT but Martinez can be his poor man's Carson and coordinate the defense and stop the run.
Just for kicks, I know your a scout not a coach but...
How would you deploy Simmons, differently, for example, versus our division opponents, Dallas, Philly and Washington?
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IMO Bush had a problem of size more than anything. He couldn't outrun like he could in college then didn't have the physicality to his game.
Those are mostly hindsight observations. In the lead up to the draft that year he was touted as the next great running back in same vein as Barry Sanders. Even those that acknowledged his struggles running between the tackles thought that his versatility and pass catching ability would make him unstoppable if he was used properly. It was a shock when the Texans went with Mario Williams at #1 and everyone thought the Saints with Sean Payton's offensive creativity was a match made in heaven. The rest is history.
I saw a lot of him in person in college, and while I saw explosion and open field creativity, I thought his game would suffer with the step up in competition. But I was certainly in the minority back then.
Plenty of people said Reggie Bush was not a between the tackles guy, and he wasn't a 25 carry guy, he was a 10-12 touches per game guy, but if you could get him in space, those 10-12 touches could really impact the game.
That was the book on him, before the draft. Simmons has nothing to do with Reggie Bush.
+1
I feel the same only I started out a few years later. 68-70 for me and I remember my dad telling me stories of years earlier where the D would leave the field and hope the O wouldn't give up any points.
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Out with 61-63 teams, then watching the LT years, then Strahan years, then Tuck, Pierre Paul. There is nothing I hate more then watching a shit defense, sorry, but defense for the Football Giants is a must, it is the Giants identity.
+1
I feel the same only I started out a few years later. 68-70 for me and I remember my dad telling me stories of years earlier where the D would leave the field and hope the O wouldn't give up any points.
Yes, my Dad did the same with me. HOLD 'EM OFFENSE!
Let’s take a step back here, there’s only 2 linebackers that I know of, to come out in the last 6 years that can double gap a tackle and still make that tackle on Dobbins, their names are Khalil Mack and Chase Young. And neither of them are even coming close to making his game winning interception playing deep half safety.
This is the type of prospect we’re talking about here, someone who will hold their own in a C gap and create takeaways as a deep half safety. If you can’t see the potential in that, then I don’t know what to say
Again I am not questioning the assignment. It's the effort. It's a championship game, he saw the RB and didn't give the effort to chase him down. He let his teammates do it. Conversely, our own Justin Tuck in a preseason game ran down a rb 30 yards down field. That's what I want at 4. Simmons will be good at times but he will not make the guys around him better. I want a better football player at 4 and less athlete. On a good football team he will be good. On a bad team like the Giants he won't be able to be the player we need. Remember he played on the best D in college. That's not the case here.
Pass at 4 for me but if we can drop and get a pick and Simmons that would be better.
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I’m just gonna tell you right now, the Ohio St game, is not the game to poke holes in. To say the least he had a great game. The 1st run he was playing man on a slot receiver, you are taught that you have no run responsibilities when you are playing man away from the box. The second run, he had his gap, if he starts playing other people’s gap responsibilities that would be more concerning to NFL teams.
Let’s take a step back here, there’s only 2 linebackers that I know of, to come out in the last 6 years that can double gap a tackle and still make that tackle on Dobbins, their names are Khalil Mack and Chase Young. And neither of them are even coming close to making his game winning interception playing deep half safety.
This is the type of prospect we’re talking about here, someone who will hold their own in a C gap and create takeaways as a deep half safety. If you can’t see the potential in that, then I don’t know what to say
Again I am not questioning the assignment. It's the effort. It's a championship game, he saw the RB and didn't give the effort to chase him down. He let his teammates do it. Conversely, our own Justin Tuck in a preseason game ran down a rb 30 yards down field. That's what I want at 4. Simmons will be good at times but he will not make the guys around him better. I want a better football player at 4 and less athlete. On a good football team he will be good. On a bad team like the Giants he won't be able to be the player we need. Remember he played on the best D in college. That's not the case here.
Pass at 4 for me but if we can drop and get a pick and Simmons that would be better.
So, he is good enough at #5 or #6 but not good enough at #4?
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In comment 14858779 aGiantGuy said:
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I’m just gonna tell you right now, the Ohio St game, is not the game to poke holes in. To say the least he had a great game. The 1st run he was playing man on a slot receiver, you are taught that you have no run responsibilities when you are playing man away from the box. The second run, he had his gap, if he starts playing other people’s gap responsibilities that would be more concerning to NFL teams.
Let’s take a step back here, there’s only 2 linebackers that I know of, to come out in the last 6 years that can double gap a tackle and still make that tackle on Dobbins, their names are Khalil Mack and Chase Young. And neither of them are even coming close to making his game winning interception playing deep half safety.
This is the type of prospect we’re talking about here, someone who will hold their own in a C gap and create takeaways as a deep half safety. If you can’t see the potential in that, then I don’t know what to say
Again I am not questioning the assignment. It's the effort. It's a championship game, he saw the RB and didn't give the effort to chase him down. He let his teammates do it. Conversely, our own Justin Tuck in a preseason game ran down a rb 30 yards down field. That's what I want at 4. Simmons will be good at times but he will not make the guys around him better. I want a better football player at 4 and less athlete. On a good football team he will be good. On a bad team like the Giants he won't be able to be the player we need. Remember he played on the best D in college. That's not the case here.
Pass at 4 for me but if we can drop and get a pick and Simmons that would be better.
So, he is good enough at #5 or #6 but not good enough at #4?
It's Simmons and a pick. You are offsetting the risk a little with the extra pick. He is a risky pick. Look at Sys writeup. No different than trading back and getting an OT.
It was the Giants' identity. Now they're identified by Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley. Their choice, not mine. But having made their choice, they should do everything possible to make sure it's the right choice, instead of changing horses mid-stream, so to speak, and trying to resurrect the past.
Pass at 4 for me but if we can drop and get a pick and Simmons that would be better.
So, he is good enough at #5 or #6 but not good enough at #4?
It's Simmons and a pick. You are offsetting the risk a little with the extra pick. He is a risky pick. Look at Sys writeup. No different than trading back and getting an OT.
Well of course. You could say that about any pick in the top 8.
We all want a trade back to get another 2nd or 3rd rounder but still get the same guy they have targeted, be it Simmons or the best OT. But it then becomes tricky. If they swap with Carolina, and the Panthers take Tua or Herbert, what is to say Miami or LAC don't like the remaining QBs take Simmons and then Wirfs/Wills and then they miss on Simmons and their favored OT?
The only safe tradeback is with Miami, because we would then know they are taking a QB(it would be part of the trade) leaving the Giants the choice of Simmons or prefered OT. Probably only get a 3rd for one move, but a high 3rd. Even if LAC wants to move up and they take Tua at four, Miami may not want Herbert and then takes Simmons or the favored OT. Then the Giants get the leftover plus a 2nd(I'd only move for at least a 2nd).
“ However, if they put him at ILB routinely, he will get crushed because his instincts are average at best and he plays high. If they put him at EDGE routinely, he will get crushed because he doesn’t have an array of rush moves and he doesn’t use his hands well in that situational on. If they put him at safety routinely, he will get crushed because he is high hipped and doesn’t play more athletic than NFL receivers like he did in college.“
Yet in the Q and A part you mention he excels vs the run and he’s very good In coverage. If you play high with his height and length that’s a massive problem. If he can’t routinely do certain things like playing edge, safety etc. well then to me he isn’t very good at one thing. Rarely do you ever take someone high because of versatility. I’m still trying to understand what he can do exceptionally well. If that’s cover a tight end then that isn’t worth a day 2 pick to me when he can’t hold up vs the run. When you say he can’t do things routinely your basically saying the athletes in the NFL is are different breed than the athlete he faced in college. What he did in college may very well not work. AkA the Taylor mays comparisons. He wasn’t very good at one thing either. He didn’t have the hips and speed to run with NFL wideouts which is what I see with Simmons and you agreed in your report. If you put him at safety ROUTINELY he will get beat he doesn’t have the speed. So he’s not even Jabril peppers in coverage? I didn’t see you, or any scout besides one, mention the wide hashes in college which is a massive part of why he had open space to the field side. Im curious why many don’t discuss this aspect of his game. He had many clean up sacks and a bunch came against Syracuse. He doesn’t have the mentality or physicality to play linebacker like a Murray who’s graded 2 points lower. He may be solid across the board but solid and versatile is great but that doesn’t scream top 5 pick to me. Too many caveates to say this guy Is a can’t miss prospect.
Sy I’m curious if you watched both the wofford game and the charlotte game. I’m sure you did. I just want to hear your take on those 2 run heavy inferior comp teams and how Simmons held up.
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Pass at 4 for me but if we can drop and get a pick and Simmons that would be better.
So, he is good enough at #5 or #6 but not good enough at #4?
It's Simmons and a pick. You are offsetting the risk a little with the extra pick. He is a risky pick. Look at Sys writeup. No different than trading back and getting an OT.
Well of course. You could say that about any pick in the top 8.
We all want a trade back to get another 2nd or 3rd rounder but still get the same guy they have targeted, be it Simmons or the best OT. But it then becomes tricky. If they swap with Carolina, and the Panthers take Tua or Herbert, what is to say Miami or LAC don't like the remaining QBs take Simmons and then Wirfs/Wills and then they miss on Simmons and their favored OT?
The only safe tradeback is with Miami, because we would then know they are taking a QB(it would be part of the trade) leaving the Giants the choice of Simmons or prefered OT. Probably only get a 3rd for one move, but a high 3rd. Even if LAC wants to move up and they take Tua at four, Miami may not want Herbert and then takes Simmons or the favored OT. Then the Giants get the leftover plus a 2nd(I'd only move for at least a 2nd).
Trading back and being guaranteed to still get the guy you originally wanted is a no-brainer and probably pretty rare. While that may be the ideal, it probably isn't the realistic objective.
I would think it is moreso the reasonable plan that a GM trades back and are still able to pick a guy in the same tier as before.
If it is so important to get the same guy you are targeting, then really you should just stay where you are and pick him.
You described Murray not Simmons. Sy and many other like JonC and myself keep telling everyone he cannot play ILB. Sy repeatedly says he has to be moved. He can’t play a specific role. If you want a linebacker like you described that guy is Murray not Simmons.
This is massively concerning.
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The player wanted out of that team in the worst way and indicated it was because of how he was being deployed.
This is massively concerning.
Fitz didn't want to be deployed all over the place. He wanted a more focused role. Simmons looks like he thrives in that kind of role. Different players and preferences .
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In a spot you can draft them. Sideline to sideline LB who can cover and rush the passer as well. He is no brainer. Maybe prove more valuable than Young. Hard to get these guys unless you draft really early. Take them when you get the chance. DG knows this.
You described Murray not Simmons. Sy and many other like JonC and myself keep telling everyone he cannot play ILB. Sy repeatedly says he has to be moved. He can’t play a specific role. If you want a linebacker like you described that guy is Murray not Simmons.
Simmons could be deployed somewhat Similar to what Graham had in mind for Fitzpatrick. We have the beef upfront also to keep the linebackers a little more clean ala Ravens with Siragusa and (Adams?) Up front. Not in comparison of level of talent but the concept.
If Graham is worth his salt he should be able to find plenty of effective ways to utilize his diverse strengths and not exposes his weaknesses in traffic excessively.
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In a spot you can draft them. Sideline to sideline LB who can cover and rush the passer as well. He is no brainer. Maybe prove more valuable than Young. Hard to get these guys unless you draft really early. Take them when you get the chance. DG knows this.
You described Murray not Simmons. Sy and many other like JonC and myself keep telling everyone he cannot play ILB. Sy repeatedly says he has to be moved. He can’t play a specific role. If you want a linebacker like you described that guy is Murray not Simmons.
You guys are really stretching what Sy said to fit your own narrative.
Sy also gave him an 89 grade for a reason. Reminder that's pro bowl level player, one point shy of All-Pro, and a grade that is extremely high for a draft prospect. He said he's the player you scheme around (in a good way).
He said you don't put him strictly at ILB or strictly at Edge...because why would you? You aren't playing to his strengths. He's a guy you keep the offense guessing with, that's why.
You and others constantly want to put him in a box. He doesn't fit your boxes, and it's his strength, not a weakness.
I'm sure our coaching staff will be able to employ him correctly.
He's going to be a dominant force in the NFL.
“ However, if they put him at ILB routinely, he will get crushed because his instincts are average at best and he plays high. If they put him at EDGE routinely, he will get crushed because he doesn’t have an array of rush moves and he doesn’t use his hands well in that situational on. If they put him at safety routinely, he will get crushed because he is high hipped and doesn’t play more athletic than NFL receivers like he did in college.“
Yet in the Q and A part you mention he excels vs the run and he’s very good In coverage. If you play high with his height and length that’s a massive problem. If he can’t routinely do certain things like playing edge, safety etc. well then to me he isn’t very good at one thing. Rarely do you ever take someone high because of versatility. I’m still trying to understand what he can do exceptionally well. If that’s cover a tight end then that isn’t worth a day 2 pick to me when he can’t hold up vs the run. When you say he can’t do things routinely your basically saying the athletes in the NFL is are different breed than the athlete he faced in college. What he did in college may very well not work. AkA the Taylor mays comparisons. He wasn’t very good at one thing either. He didn’t have the hips and speed to run with NFL wideouts which is what I see with Simmons and you agreed in your report. If you put him at safety ROUTINELY he will get beat he doesn’t have the speed. So he’s not even Jabril peppers in coverage? I didn’t see you, or any scout besides one, mention the wide hashes in college which is a massive part of why he had open space to the field side. Im curious why many don’t discuss this aspect of his game. He had many clean up sacks and a bunch came against Syracuse. He doesn’t have the mentality or physicality to play linebacker like a Murray who’s graded 2 points lower. He may be solid across the board but solid and versatile is great but that doesn’t scream top 5 pick to me. Too many caveates to say this guy Is a can’t miss prospect.
Sy I’m curious if you watched both the wofford game and the charlotte game. I’m sure you did. I just want to hear your take on those 2 run heavy inferior comp teams and how Simmons held up.
Great post!
So to be clear - when I say Simmons wouldn't do well as a strict ILB, or as a strict EDGE, or as a strict S - by no means am I coming down on him.
This chess piece is the guy that gets moved based on the situation, the opponent, the situation. And he be can "good enough" at multiple roles. Guys that can play EDGE, ILB, OLB, S - they don't exist. Dont'a Hightower from NE is a really good ILB - average EDGE guy - average OLB - but the fact he can do all three is huge for that scheme.
Kyle Van Noy (last year on NE - this year on MIA) same thing. He isn't an ideal EDGE, but he can play well enough there in situations. He isn't an ideal ILB - but he can play well enough there in situations. He is a really good OLB.
Simmons best role is an OLB/SAM type, but he can make a difference in situations at ILB, EDGE, BUCK, S. Nobody on the current NYG defense can do half of that.
Again, it will be ALL ABOUT how he is used.
Because he is fast? Muse should be a first rounder?
He was moved all over the line of scrimmage and it was actually comical to see the offense make LOS adjustments to where LT actually was.
That may happen again with Simmons.
Giants haven't had a player demanding that kind of attention in quite some time.
So utilizing Simmons in the 'versatile' role would not be unprecedented nor actual rocket science.
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Simmons best role is an OLB/SAM type, but he can make a difference in situations at ILB, EDGE, BUCK, S. Nobody on the current NYG defense can do half of that.
Again, it will be ALL ABOUT how he is used.
It would seem that more and more it's a game of adjustments, and having a high-quality swiss army knife is something to value.
Sy, is there a position that Simmons excels at?
The thought of Okudah/Bradberry/Baker/Whoever warms my heart.
I would be happy if we landed him. Actually prefer Okudah over Simmons.
Good work.
Baun will get a write up in my EDGE preview - hard to pick which spot he deserves to be in, so I went with where he played the majority snaps. I don't see him as a MIKE, no.
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In comment 14858862 Tuckrule said:
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Simmons best role is an OLB/SAM type, but he can make a difference in situations at ILB, EDGE, BUCK, S. Nobody on the current NYG defense can do half of that.
Again, it will be ALL ABOUT how he is used.
It would seem that more and more it's a game of adjustments, and having a high-quality swiss army knife is something to value.
Sy, is there a position that Simmons excels at?
Strong Safety AND strong side OLB are his best spots.
He was moved all over the line of scrimmage and it was actually comical to see the offense make LOS adjustments to where LT actually was.
That may happen again with Simmons.
Giants haven't had a player demanding that kind of attention in quite some time.
So utilizing Simmons in the 'versatile' role would not be unprecedented nor actual rocket science.
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Give me the guy he compared to 2 hall of famers. I’ll take that guy over the guy who comes with an instructional manual how to use otherwise he’s a day 2 pick if used incorrectly.
You and others constantly want to put him in a box. He doesn't fit your boxes, and it's his strength, not a weakness.
I'm sure our coaching staff will be able to employ him correctly.
He's going to be a dominant force in the NFL.
Just stop. You’re a lemming with no unique thoughts of your own. Remember how you said Barkley was the best player in the draft? All you do is regurgitate information and pass it off as if you’re some sort of authority. You don’t know shit about shit.
Here’s an idea — develop an eye for what matters and contribute something meaningful and novel instead of piggybacking off all the bullshit you read.
He was moved all over the line of scrimmage and it was actually comical to see the offense make LOS adjustments to where LT actually was.
That may happen again with Simmons.
Giants haven't had a player demanding that kind of attention in quite some time.
So utilizing Simmons in the 'versatile' role would not be unprecedented nor actual rocket science.
LT could beat NFL tackles. Simmons cannot, in my opinion. Most his sacks in 2019 were unblocked
The only comparison I was making was versatility along the line of scrimmage forcing offenses to game plan for him.
Can't compare with all the amazing things LT could do.
I don't see them as comparable in their skills -- just that LT was a paradigm shifting OLB and Simmons might be as well.
I missed this but it's a good point. It did cross my mind how Minkah was shipped early in the season with Graham at DC, I just wasn't sure if it was a coaching thing or part of their tank. If that is the case, it's a strong argument against Simmons for this team at 4.
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The player wanted out of that team in the worst way and indicated it was because of how he was being deployed.
I missed this but it's a good point. It did cross my mind how Minkah was shipped early in the season with Graham at DC, I just wasn't sure if it was a coaching thing or part of their tank. If that is the case, it's a strong argument against Simmons for this team at 4.
Fitzpatrick wanted to play one position and they wanted him to play multiple positions. Simmons has no issue playing multiple positions. Also wouldn’t discount the fact that Miami was getting rid of all their talented players and seemingly tanking. Guys don’t want to be part of that which I’m sure contributed to his discontent.
It’s also pretty likely what happened was far more Flores’ doing than Graham’s anyways.
Simmons is too risky at 4, especially for a GM on the hot seat. You don’t take “if you use him right” guys top 5. You take guys top 5 that you know exactly what they’re going to be for your franchise.
Thank God you are not making the pick then. He is the best defensive player in the draft and can be special as Darius Leonard is for the Colts.
Discussing Leonard and Simmons isn’t a great comp. Leonard is tough hard nosed linebacker mentality. He’s physical in the box and he can shed and run and chase. He does what Simmons fails to do within the box. Something that is very difficult to teach. Simmons to me is a sure fire risk. Not in the sense he’ll flop flat on his face but if your selecting 4th overall you need to come away with a stud. These types of backers are not taken in the top 5. If he’s average or above average at all these different things and allows versatility you can take a chance and try and get that player later. At 4 you need a rock. Not a cover guy, not a hybrid player. A rock who’s a game changer. He’s a guy that doesn’t dictate what an offense will do like a Lawrence Taylor. You see Simmons in the box run at him. You see him deep attack his zone. He wants to spy Lamar vs the ravens he’ll get destroyed on their designed runs. We play in the nfc East. Teams run the football. Well take Simmons after the skins add another elite pass rusher to their arsenal. I just don’t see it but I’m in the minority. Straight line speed is very different than adjusting in the nfl stop and starting. I have not seen start and stop ability from Simmons. I just see a straight line guy. Within the giants defense he very much will be a Jabril peppers type. Plays in the box, cover the tight end, play some deep safety in certain looks etc.
Rather take a gamble on dugger, Chinn or gaither if your looking for this type of athlete on your defense.
Your not getting it. Simmons isn’t a threat attacking the QB or playing in the box. He will make his Money playing safety in the nfl. No coordinator will stay up nights worried about Simmons. He isn’t Ed Reed back there and he isn’t Sean Taylor. He’s not Lawrence Taylor. He’s not Troy Polamalu. Nobody is losing sleep over Simmons. Bowman and Willis, oh you want guys like that his name is Kenneth Murray! was compared to Patrick Willis by Sy. Stop crediting Simmons with things he cannot do. He isn’t that type of guy you put at linebacker and have him make plays. He needs much more help than that. Again the wide hashes is a huge thing nobody has mentioned. I never see anyone discuss it. It’s a huge part of what made Simmons so good. He had allllllll that space to work with to avoid blocker(not that he’s soft that’s his game) in the nfl running around blockers is a much tougher task when your playing against grown ass men and not boys.
Discussing Leonard and Simmons isn’t a great comp. Leonard is tough hard nosed linebacker mentality. He’s physical in the box and he can shed and run and chase. He does what Simmons fails to do within the box. Something that is very difficult to teach. Simmons to me is a sure fire risk. Not in the sense he’ll flop flat on his face but if your selecting 4th overall you need to come away with a stud. These types of backers are not taken in the top 5. If he’s average or above average at all these different things and allows versatility you can take a chance and try and get that player later. At 4 you need a rock. Not a cover guy, not a hybrid player. A rock who’s a game changer. He’s a guy that doesn’t dictate what an offense will do like a Lawrence Taylor. You see Simmons in the box run at him. You see him deep attack his zone. He wants to spy Lamar vs the ravens he’ll get destroyed on their designed runs. We play in the nfc East. Teams run the football. Well take Simmons after the skins add another elite pass rusher to their arsenal. I just don’t see it but I’m in the minority. Straight line speed is very different than adjusting in the nfl stop and starting. I have not seen start and stop ability from Simmons. I just see a straight line guy. Within the giants defense he very much will be a Jabril peppers type. Plays in the box, cover the tight end, play some deep safety in certain looks etc.
Rather take a gamble on dugger, Chinn or gaither if your looking for this type of athlete on your defense.
Completely respect the approach and opinion you have. Very well thought out.
You aren't alone.
Yes he is. Ultimately he’s a safety in the nfl. Compared to nfl caliber safeties he will be considered below average. I see the same stiffness in the lower body and upright play that I saw with mays who was also a can’t miss freak of nature. Name a tight end he went up against this season who will be an nfl starting tight end. Until you see Him against nfl comp you can project all you want. The athletes get better, faster and stronger at this level. The gap between his athletic ability and the guys he’ll face shrinks by ten fold. We shall see. In my opinion he’s a completely overblown and overhyped prospect. Look where similar guys were taken in previous drafts. Will he have a solid career? Possibly, yes. will he ever be worth the 4th overall pick? Not that I can see. If we were selecting mid round and Murray is off the board would I consider him? Possibly. At 4 no chance.
That’s a great question. For us I would say he is not. Overall draft board he has to be in the top 10 he’s that elite. Our needs scream offensive tackle. We can’t hide from that. We need to shore up this line. Garrett wants a few things. A dominant physical offensive line. A big time back. Blocking tight ends and a true big possession WR. It seems that we got him most of what he needs to succeed except for the tackle and potentially that possession guy. Murray is extremely tempting even at 4 but even I know that would be a reach based off need/value. Talent wise he’s worthy of the 4th overall pick. Need and value have to align and it pains me to say it with Murray the need isn’t there anymore with the signing of Blake. Although, Blake next to Murray would be a dynamic duo.
Coming downhill he’s the best in the class. His blitzing ability is off the charts. His coverage isn’t great but 1v1 against a back or tight end it’s not a problem. He can blanket those guys. It’s zone coverage in space is the knock on him if there is one. Still, to me, he’s an above average coverage linebacker. He can thrive as a mike in a 4-3 or ILB in a 3-4 which to me may be his best position.
Discussing Leonard and Simmons isn’t a great comp. Leonard is tough hard nosed linebacker mentality. He’s physical in the box and he can shed and run and chase. He does what Simmons fails to do within the box. Something that is very difficult to teach. Simmons to me is a sure fire risk. Not in the sense he’ll flop flat on his face but if your selecting 4th overall you need to come away with a stud. These types of backers are not taken in the top 5. If he’s average or above average at all these different things and allows versatility you can take a chance and try and get that player later. At 4 you need a rock. Not a cover guy, not a hybrid player. A rock who’s a game changer. He’s a guy that doesn’t dictate what an offense will do like a Lawrence Taylor. You see Simmons in the box run at him. You see him deep attack his zone. He wants to spy Lamar vs the ravens he’ll get destroyed on their designed runs. We play in the nfc East. Teams run the football. Well take Simmons after the skins add another elite pass rusher to their arsenal. I just don’t see it but I’m in the minority. Straight line speed is very different than adjusting in the nfl stop and starting. I have not seen start and stop ability from Simmons. I just see a straight line guy. Within the giants defense he very much will be a Jabril peppers type. Plays in the box, cover the tight end, play some deep safety in certain looks etc.
Rather take a gamble on dugger, Chinn or gaither if your looking for this type of athlete on your defense.
Great post!
But in a base 3-4 he as Sy mentioned is probably a SAM and in a nickel he can play next to Blake. I think people are getting too hung up with the idea that he'll be one of the two ILBs in the base formation but he's literally never played that role before and it's hard to imagine that's how he'd be deployed in the NFL.
Unless you're going to go get an elite pass rusher or a lockdown corner, there are few defenders that can impact a game like a true three down LB who never has to come off the field.
Jon as a fellow Badger aficionado -- your thought on Chris Orr per my post earlier in this thread?
Sy, what do you think of his film? Can you shed light on why he's not even seen as a UFA?
It's too premature to tell whether Judge himself is competent.
Jon as a fellow Badger aficionado -- your thought on Chris Orr per my post earlier in this thread?
Sy, what do you think of his film? Can you shed light on why he's not even seen as a UFA?
LOL Jon I think you answered my question in the BBI draft:
191. New York Jets (Jon in NYC) - Chris Orr, LB, Wisconsin
I think anyone who gets him has the floor of an excellent ST player and ILB backup.
We would be crazy not to selected him with one of our 7th Round picks if he's there.
Hope some of our scouts watched Big10 Football.
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