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2020 NFL Draft Preview: Linebacker

Sy'56 : 4/3/2020 9:05 am
LINEBACKER

Format includes a quick position overview, my grading scale and what the number mean, the summary and final grade from my final report on my top 15, a quick additional note on the player, and my ranks 16-25 with grades only.

*I AM NOT DOING NFL COMPARISONS

Quick Position Overview

Keep in mind I have an “EDGE” position preview coming up next week, so I may not go in to some of those linebackers in this preview. I am mainly talking about the off-ball guys that primarily play between the tackles. Depending on what NYG uses as their base personnel, we are likely looking at the newly signed Blake Martinez and second year kid Ryan Connelly, who is coming off a torn ACL after raising some eyebrows in 4 games. Neither of them are worth getting overly excited about, but that doesn’t mean the position is a weak point, not at all. In fact, especially if Connelly recovers well, the two should provide really good run defense between the tackles and to the sidelines.

The question here is two-fold. Will they be exposed in the passing game? Is there enough depth and intra-roster competition? David Mayo will be back to provide both and while we can’t look down on his performance in 2019, he is best suited for the backup role. Josiah Tauaefa looks to be a solid special teamer and backup, maybe similar to what they had in Chase Blackburn and Calvin Munson in the past. I’m not sure I see Chris Peace or Nate Harvey sticking to a 53 man roster. I think the hole they have here is coverage, as none of the above mentioned guys can hang with quality tight ends or pass catching backs. It’s been an issue for years and there isn’t a current solution on the roster.

GRADING SCALE

90+ All Pro Projection
85+: Pro Bowl Projection
81-84: First rounder – should be able to play right away
79-80: 2nd Rounder – Should be able to rotate right away – Year 2 starter
77-78: 3rd rounder – Should be able to rotate by end of rookie year – Year 2/3 starter
74-76: Early Day 3 – Special Teams – Future backup/possible starter
71-73: Mid Day 3 – Special Teams – Future backup / gamble starter
68-70: Late Day 3 - Back end of roster / Practice Squad / Development guy
65-67: Preferred UDFA
60-64: Undrafted FA



TOP 15 GRADES AND ANALYSIS

*Zack Baun, Terrell Lewis, Azur Kamara, Carter Coughlin are all graded in EDGE group


1. Isaiah Simmons / Clemson / 6'4 - 238

Grade: 89


Summary: Fourth year junior entry and two year starter from Olathe, Kansas. After an accomplished high school football and long jump career, Simmons redshirted his first year on campus at Clemson. When he finally got on the field in 2017, his upside jumped off the screen and the coaches knew they had a budding star that couldn’t be kept to one position. They moved him around a lot, seeing snaps at linebacker, nickel corner, safety, and edge rusher. It resulted in two straight years of production across the board, leading the team in tackles in 2018 and 2019 respectively in addition to 25.5 TFL and 9.5 sacks. Simmons also intercepted 4 passes, broke up 13 others, and forced 4 fumbles over that span. Simply put, he is a defensive playmaker that will wear several hats for a defense if schemed properly. He is a very non-traditional player, thus putting him in to a traditional role would be a massive mistake. Simmons is the player you scheme around, not the other way around.

*I have done more research and re-watching of tape on Simmons than any non-QB I have ever scouted. No, not because I wasn’t sure of him being elite or close to elite, but because he has played in countless roles against countless style-offenses. He plays to a sub 4.4 (which he ran at the combine), his stats are NOT inflated, and what really puts me over the hill on him are the reports I got on his character and intelligence. If you are going to gamble on an athlete at the top of the draft, make sure the intangibles are there. Simmons’ role within this defense is unknown to me – that is above my pay grade.

Do I think it can work? Absolutely. Do I think this kid is going to make plays on a defense that doesn’t have a playmaker? Absolutely. Do I think this kid can cover tight ends, spy the most athletic quarterbacks, and rush the passer? Absolutely. You just have to make sure you aren’t keeping him in one spot. As said in my summary, you need to build the scheme around him, not the other way around. If this new, motivated, young, innovation-hungry scheme is confident they can do with Simmons, pull the trigger. But one must know, he isn’t instinctive or stout against the run. He flashes power on the move but he won’t handle NFL linemen and blocking tight ends well. Put him in the wrong role, he is a day 2 kind of player.


2. Kenneth Murray / Oklahoma / 6’3 – 241

Grade: 87


Summary: Junior entry. Three year starter from Missouri City, Texas. Murray burst on to the scene in 2017, winning the Big 12 Freshman Defensive Player of the Year Award. He was a part of the All-Big 12 team all three years and ended his career as an All American. He started all 42 games of that career and has been the heartbeat to the defense. Murray has been touted for both his leadership and play by coaches and opponents alike. He is the kind of player that any team can stick in to the middle of their defense and know they have a true three down player that will make others around him better. Murray has the physical tools and mental acuity to be a star in the middle.

*It is possible, that if it weren’t for Simmons, Murray would be in the discussion for the 4th overall pick in my eyes. I don’t think he would end up being my guy, but this is the first LB I have really wanted to compare to Patrick Willis or Luke Kuechly. Everything about this kid is what the modern inside linebacker needs. Speed, burst, power, range in coverage, and true leadership. I was pretty high on Devin Bush and Devin White last year, both of which had good rookie years. Murray is better. There are a couple medical red flags that need to be looked in to further.

3. Logan Wilson / Wyoming / 6’2 – 241

Grade: 81


Summary: Fifth year senior from Casper, Wyoming. He arrived at Wyoming as a 185 pound defensive back. After his redshirt year, Wilson moved to linebacker and earned the Mountain West Freshman of the Year Award. He was a three time All Mountain West honoree and finished his career as an All American. The high school track standout blends the new and old age linebacker in to one package. He has the NFL body but can move like a safety. His strengths are on display when he is in space pursuing the action and covering tight ends and backs. He does struggle mightily when taking on blocks, but he is entering the league at the right time as cover linebackers are in high demand and Wilson brings that to the table without giving up too much against the run.

*10 years ago we would have labeled this kid as a linebacker that wasn’t stout enough. To be real, stoutness is less of a factor than it has ever been and the ability to run, chase, and cover are more important. Wilson, with good size, moves really well and was really productive. Smart kid, will start early in his career. Can play multiple spots.


4. Patrick Queen / LSU / 6’0 – 229

Grade: 81


Summary: Junior entry. Two year starter from Ventress, Louisiana. Over the course of his final two years on campus, Queen started just over a full season’s worth of games. By the end of LSU’s championship run he was arguably the top defensive player on the team. He evolved in to a weapon that was all over the field on every down. The NFL’s desire for speed and coverage ability will make Queen a sought after commodity, as his tools in space are near the elite level. He is still growing and evolving as an interior run defender and there are mental lapses that show up from time to time, but this is the kind of linebacker that every team wants now. High upside player.

*I have Queen as a late first round talent as you can see but I can confirm that many don’t see a round 1 guy. As good as he looks at times, the two things NFL coaches and scouts won’t like are the lack of size (especially his short arms) and the fact he was a 1 year starter. And to build off that, he wasn’t the starter at the beginning of the season. He only got in there when he did because Michael Divinity got in some off-field trouble that led to a suspension.

5. Akeem Davis-Gaither / Appalachian State / 6’2 – 224

Grade: 77


Summary: Fifth year senior from Thomasville, North Carolina. Two year starter. Finished 2018 off with a 2nd Team All Sun Belt honor before really taking off as a senior. 2019 Sun Belt Defensive Player of the Year. Davis-Gaither was a team captain and obvious leader of the defense that set the tone each and every week. His speed and burst were just too much to handle for his opponents and it was able to impact the game in several ways. He lined up as an edge rusher and showed plus-blitzing ability, he lined up as an inside run defender and was able to move through traffic well enough, and he lined in space as an effective cover linebacker. He won’t be a schematic fit for several teams but a defense that wants to add speed and versatility but can also keep him out of downhill run stuffing responsibilities will have a high outlook on him.

*I see some Telvin Smith here. Undersized, short reach, slight frame. But this dude can move at a different speed than his opponents and he will evade blockers well. Really fun player to watch but he needs to be protected. I don’t see him impact the game as a blitzer or interior run defender, but he will fly around and cover backs with ease.

6. Troy Dye / Oregon / 6’3 – 231

Grade: 77


Summary: Senior entry from Norco, California. Four year starter that led the Ducks in tackles all four seasons. Three time 2nd Team All Pac 12 defender following his Honorable Mention 2016 season. Dye finished his career near the top of the program’s all time tackles list. He has been a productive player across the board and it showed both on the stat sheet and on tape. He lined up all over the field and got to the action one way or another, proving his intelligence and athleticism. His slight frame will need work if he is going to be playing between the tackles at the next level but his ability to factor in space and potential to be a credible every down linebacker is enough to hide his deficiencies. He is a new-age linebacker that doesn’t give up too much as a thumper.

*Dye was as the top of my senior LB stack last summer. I love this kid’s game and more important, I love his consistency. You know what you’re getting week to week. Dye is another current-age linebacker that will be more effective in space than he is in traffic, but he stays plays tough between the tackles. He won’t be a star, but he will contribute on special teams right away and offer some potential as a starting weak side presence.

7. Malik Harrison / Ohio State / 6'3 - 247

Grade: 77


Summary: Senior entry from Columbus, Ohio. Two year starter that earned 1st Team All Big 10 honors in 2019, Honorable Mention in 2018. Also 3rd Team All American as a senior. Harrison has the NFL-ready size and power presence to factor right away against the run. He can handle NFL offensive lineman with his combination of man-strength and top tier length. Once in the open field, he can really get moving with long stride speed, which will be an asset against athletic tight ends. He came to Ohio State as a former high school quarterback that wanted to play wide receiver for the Buckeyes, so that is the kind of athlete we are talking about here. He could end up projecting to the strong side in a 4-3 front long term as a starter with the option of providing some middle-type roles.

*Harrison is overlooked a bit when it comes to how freaky of an athlete he is. He has some of the best triangle numbers (height + weight + speed) at the position. Remember, this kid came to Ohio State to play wide receiver! When I watched his tape, I saw a lot of rawness, indecision, and inconsistency. But when he did line things up, when he did make proper reads, he looked dominant. Harrison is a high upside, really athletic linebacker that simply needs time to sit back on the depth chart and get acclimated. If it clicks, watch out. Really nice fit for NYG’s situation if they can find a way to get their hands on him round 3 or 4.

8. Jordyn Brooks / Texas Tech / 6’0 – 240

Grade: 77


Summary: Senior entry from Houston, Texas. Four-year starter that led Texas Tech in tackles three of those years. Honorable Mention All Big 12 in 2016, 2017, and 2018 respectively before going on to being named 1st Team All Big 12 and 2nd Team All American in 2019. Brooks is an aggressive, fast, attacking downhill defender that made 20 tackles for loss as a senior. That number was a tad inflated as he was almost-always sent on blitzes, but his athletic ability and closing style make him an attractive prospect. He is quick enough to factor in coverage, he just didn’t have a ton of experience in that role. Brooks has the ability to start in the NFL but at the very least will be a special teams contributor and plus-run defender.

*Brooks is going to be a gamble, I think some teams won’t even look at him. He has very little experience in coverage, he was purely a downhill guy. But there are still plenty of schemes that need the thumper inside and that he is. However he also brings 4.6 speed to the table, a nasty, physical guy. He screams Ravens to me. And I always love how their linebackers perform and help them win games.

9. Anfernee Jennings / Alabama / 6’2 – 256

Grade: 74


Summary: Fifth year senior from Dadeville, Alabama. Three year starter. 1st Team All SEC in 2019. Jennings has been a mainstay on the Tide’s defense for three seasons. He is one of the more versatile players in the class, as he has seen plenty of experience as an edge rusher and inside linebacker. He will likely make a full time move to middle as a two down thumper between the tackles that can add something as a pass rusher on 3rd down. He lacks standout physical traits, most notably when it comes to movement, but he is instinctive and tough. Smart players that have produced the way he has against the highest level of competition find a way on the field at the next level.

*Some are leaving an EDGE position on him, which is fine I guess. But we saw him move to off-ball linebacker a lot in 2019 and he spent the majority of Senior Bowl week there too. Jennings is really smart and really physical, I could see NE being all over this kid draft weekend early day 3. 25+ TFL and 13+ sacks over the past two years coming from Alabama? Can play inside as a thumper, can provide quality pass rush on 3rd down? Sign me up.


10. Willie Gay Jr. / Mississippi State / 6’1 – 243

Grade: 73


Summary: Junior entry from Starkville, Mississippi. Two year starter but only started 11 games total over his career. Missed a significant amount of time in 2019 because of academics. Gay was a explosive rushing quarterback in high school and it is easy to notice just how fast he can play on the defensive side. He is an aggressive downhill force that will make the offense adjust to him. He is not someone that a ball carrier wants to meet in space, as the power Gay brings upon force when he has a head start is as physical as it gets. There will need to be extra screening in regard to his off field habits, but he is a potential game changer if everything checks out and he learns the game a bit more.

*If the Giants are looking to take a risk at LB on day 3, this is the guy to go after. I had glowing game notes on Gay Jr and the comparison of Devin Bush came up multiple times. Short but stout, plus length for his frame, top-shelf speed. There is no denying that NYG needs more juice, more speed at the second level. Gay Jr blew the combine up, he is in the same tier athletically speaking as Simmons. He is as violent a player as you will find. There are a couple character red flags, however, and he only has 11 career starts. If NYG wants to turn their defense around, they are going to have to take a couple chances. This would be taking a chance but I feel good about it in round 4 or 5.

11. Dante Olson / Montana / 6’2 – 237

Grade: 71


Summary: Fifth year senior from Medford, Oregon. Two year starter that certainly made the most of those two years. Set, and the re-set, the all time single season record for tackles in program history. A two time FCS All American and the recipient of the Big Sky Defensive Player of the Year Award. Buck Buchanon Award winner finalist in 2018 and 2019 respectively, given to the top defensive player of the year in FCS. Olson is the son of a coach with really good speed and a finisher’s mentality. He runs around like he’s on fire and with the demands of today’s linebacker in the pros, he could be a sneaky-good fit. He lacks some important agility-based movement skills but he can be molded in to a quality player in time. At the very least, he will be a stud-special teamer.

*Olson won’t impress anybody with his tools, but they are good enough and he has the combination of intelligence and toughness on the field to factor. He would be a reliable backup and quality special teamer. My question, in relation to the Giants, would center around how “multiple” he can be. I see a weak side / middle guy only. Every team has a linebacker like him, but I can see why some would rather go for someone faster. I saw him at Shrine and was impressed, I am keeping him near the top of this cluster of mid to late day 3 linebackers.

12. Shaquille Quarterman / Miami / 6’1 – 234

Grade: 71


Summary: Senior entry from Orange Park, Florida. Four year starter that finished All-ACC every season, including the 1st Team honor in both 2018 and 2019. Quarterman evolved in to the Alpha Male of the Miami defense over his final two years, producing at a high level against both the run and pass. He has the kind of intelligence and on-field IQ that every good linebacker possesses and he knows how to finish. While he is a bit of a throwback that may currently struggle to play in space against the passing game, he still has the potential and even likelihood to make an impact. He shows stiffness but if a scheme can hide that a bit, he will help a defense much more than hurt it. He will be in the league for a long time and likely start at some point.

*A lot of people were juiced up about this kid before and during his freshman season. I feel like he’s been at Miami for a decade. 52 starts, a ton of tackles, multiple schemes, and a true leader of the group. I got to speak with him down at St. Pete during Shrine week and came away really impressed. He won’t add a lot of athleticism to the group though, he isn’t that big, and he may be a 2-down guy. The physical upside isn’t good enough for me to use anything more than a 3rd day pick here.

13. Tanner Muse / Clemson / 6’2 – 227

Grade: 71


Summary: Fifth year senior entry from Belmont, North Carolina. Three year starter that earned 3rd Team All ACC honors in 2018, 1st Team in 2019. Also a 3rd Team All American as a senior. Muse looks too tight to stay at safety, as his hips and feet just don’t move well enough to be trusted in coverage against pro receivers. However he shows potential as a cover linebacker that can handle the running game from the weak side. The winner of the Special Teams Player of the Year Award at Clemson in 2016, Muse brings the kind of straight line speed and power-impact to make an impact in that department at the next level and his role on defense will need to be specific but he has proven to be a factor against the pass if he is protected.

*I have no issues with those that label Muse a late day 2 pick. He has some old school, blue collar in him but don’t look past the fact he is incredibly fast and explosive. Ohio State running back JK Dobbins out-ran Isaiah Simmons in space during the CFB playoffs, Muse caught him from behind. Then he went to the combine and ran a 4.41. Muse is too tight to play safety in my eyes, but he is more than physical enough for linebacker duty and his coverage for the position would be considered a plus. I have this mid to late day 3 grade here, but I’ll say this, his versatility, intelligence, and physical nature could be an exact fit for what NYG plans to do on defense. Look for this kid draft weekend.

14. Davvion Taylor / Colorado / 6’1 – 228

Grade: 70


Summary: Senior entry from Magnolia, Mississippi. Two year starter that spent two seasons in junior college prior to transferring to Colorado in 2018. Finished with Honorable Mention All Pac 12 honors as a senior. Also an accomplished sprinter for the Colorado track team. Taylor has as interesting a background as anyone in the class. Because of religious beliefs, he was not allowed to play in football games Fridays or Saturdays during high school until his senior year. Thus, he was under-recruited and simply did not bank much football experience. After two impressive seasons in junior college, Colorado scooped him up and put him in to the starting lineup 20 games over 2 years. Taylor had a hard time finding a permanent home in regard to position, but his speed was top shelf and he flashed playmaking ability from time to time. He is still very much considered a developmental player that is incredibly raw, but he has elite special teams potential and could mold in to a quality weak side, space-happy linebacker down the road.

*One of the more unique prospects in the class considering his background and tools. Many are putting this kid in to the day 2 tier because of his strength and speed. He is an excellent run and chase guy but I don’t see instincts or flow to the action. I thought he looked out of place at the Senior Bowl. While I do respect the upside here that stems from his frame and speed, he is a project.

15. Jacob Phillips / LSU / 6’3 – 229

Grade: 70


Summary: Senior entry from Nashville, Tennessee. Two year starter that finished second on the team in tackles in 2018, first in 2019. After sitting behind Devin White for two years, a future top 10 pick, Phillips took over the job in the middle of the Tigers defense and excelled. He was a 5-star recruit coming out of high school and flashed over his two seasons. The straight line speed, attractive frame, and sure tackling is sure to catch the eyes of defensive coaches that want to try and develop a player for a year or two. He shows weaknesses in coverage but he physical upside is there to warrant the idea he could improve enough in that area. He is a day three pick that has the upside of a starter, ideally in a scheme that can let him run around and chase.

*Phillips isn’t in the same tier as a some of these recent LSU linebackers, but I think he is a reliable bet to provide quality depth and special teams play. He plays smart, he works hard, he is very coachable. Don’t forget he was a 5-star recruit and even though one could argue he had an underwhelming career, he was an important piece these past two seasons. Not a good cover linebacker but he will be reliable against the run.

16. Mykal Walker / Fresno State: 70
17. Francis Bernard / Utah: 70
18. Evan Weaver / California: 70
19. Cam Brown / Penn State: 69
20. Jordan Mack / Virginia: 69
21. Khaleke Hudson / Michigan: 69
22. Justin Strnad / Wake Forest: 69
23. Michael Divinity / LSU: 69
24. Michael Pinckney / Miami: 68
25. Jordan Glasgow / Michigan: 68


NYG APPROACH

For the record, I could talk about the possible Simmons selection for an hour straight, it is fascinating. I won’t go too deep here, as we can discuss further in the comments, but I will echo what I stated earlier. NYG can certainly go for him at #4 and I won’t say a negative thing about it. But so much of his potential, even more so than other prospects, will be based on how the team would use him. Build the scheme around him, do not try to fit him in to a scheme. This coaching staff yelled from the top of the mountains that they want to be able to change their scheme week to week to exploit the opponent’s weaknesses. Simmons is quite literally the kind of player that can change week to week based on what the team needs, and he can do so at a high level. However, if they put him at ILB routinely, he will get crushed because his instincts are average at best and he plays high. If they put him at EDGE routinely, he will get crushed because he doesn’t have an array of rush moves and he doesn’t use his hands well in that situation. If they put him at safety routinely, he will get crushed because he is high hipped and doesn’t play more athletic than NFL receivers like he did in college.

As for the rest of the LB group, whether they draft Simmons or not, speed needs to be added. Connelly, Martinez, and Mayo can get the job done against the run but they are going to get exposed when true speed and coverage are needed. If you need to convert 3rd and 5, attack those guys and a good passing game will almost always come out on top especially on a team that lacks quality pass rushers. This draft’s LB group as a whole is a little thin after those top 7-8 guys. Because it is such a scheme-based position, NYG doesn’t have to rush here. They can be patient, wait for value (even if it is round 7), and add the athleticism there.
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RE: If Sy is right about his ranking and Washington and Detroit  
JonC : 4/3/2020 3:47 pm : link
In comment 14858440 gidiefor said:
Quote:
both pick Defense there a very good chance Simmons won't be there when the Giants pick anyway. Patricia certainly knows what to do with him.


Please take him off the board.
"I'd rather gamble on a OT at #4"  
Torrag : 4/3/2020 3:52 pm : link
Not much gamble when there are multiple Top 7 grades and four in the top 15.
RE: wait people here blindly trust a rookie HC and Graham as a DC  
Festina Lente : 4/3/2020 3:54 pm : link
In comment 14858246 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
Graham who hasn't exactly had top notch defenses in his career to utilize a very unique player on defense? (see below link about his usage of Minkah Fitzpatrick) and judge who has coached ST and WRs?

we did not hire bill b to be our coach. or nick saban. we hired joe judge (and the track record of former new england coaches under bill is VERY poor). mike vrabel was not a coach on the pats for those wondering.

so yes i'm very concerned about the giants drafting this player because i 100% agree with Sy about simmons limitations. and if simmonns is in the wrong system he will not be this transcendent player like some here think he is.

i'm not saying joe judge will suck. but this player is not someone that is easy to coach or develop a plan for. and i'd hate to see this team use the 4th pick in an extremely talented draft on someone they don't know how to use properly.

and don't give me this crap like they have a plan for him. shurmur said the same shit about barkley and we saw how great that plan was. Link - ( New Window )


Your point about Graham (in general) and his ill usage of Minkah Fitzpatrik are good ones and ones well worth considering.
RE: There's a group of players near the top of this Draft...  
allstarjim : 4/3/2020 3:54 pm : link
In comment 14858444 Torrag said:
Quote:
all clumped together with similar grades. No one should be angry so long as we Draft one of them. That said when you insert need and roster impact OT is at the top of the list imo. If you have the grade on them. I do.


I do as well...I think Jedrick Wills is as close to a slam-dunk very good starting OT in the NFL as you can ask for in the draft. But I also think Simmons makes our defense and team "mo'" betta than any OT in this draft.

If we went Simmons and all OL the rest of the whole draft I'd be happy. I know that's not going to happen, but what if the draft went this way:

Round 1 - Simmons
Round 2 - Ruiz
Round 3 - Ben Bartch

That's a good bet on a good OT that impressed at the Senior Bowl...maybe you get Saadiq Charles in the 4th... take a couple of guys at OT in those middle rounds.

I DO think Simmons is a gold jacket kind of player, I know JonC is not a believer, but I have watched enough of Simmons, not saying Jon hasn't, and I believe he is going to change games and change defenses.
Torrag  
JonC : 4/3/2020 3:55 pm : link
Picking #4, I'd like a franchise tackle without warts. I don't see that guy in the crop. Let's agree to disagree.
I don't think Patricia knows much of anything without BB  
Victor in CT : 4/3/2020 3:55 pm : link
That's another worry for the Giants. Most of BBs guys stink when they leave. Hopefully Judge changes that narrative.
SY if you could please  
Festina Lente : 4/3/2020 3:57 pm : link
I'd really like to hear your opinion on Blake Martinez and the NYG picking him up.

I tend to think the backlash to his signing seemed a bit over the top but I concede that I hardly confident of my opinion.
Graham and Fitzpatrick is also a valif concern  
JonC : 4/3/2020 3:59 pm : link
The player wanted out of that team in the worst way and indicated it was because of how he was being deployed.
"I'd like a franchise tackle without warts"  
Torrag : 4/3/2020 4:05 pm : link
Still not a gamble when you're going to get a high level Day 1 starter. You know who I'm talking about. I'm still not clear what you think his warts are. Compare him to the successful Top 10 OT's and he checks all the boxes. I remember this same stuff when Stanley and Lewan were coming out. Paralysis by over analysis. The early starting successes all have the same thing in common...technique.
RE:  
allstarjim : 4/3/2020 4:08 pm : link
In comment 14858496 Torrag said:
Quote:
Still not a gamble when you're going to get a high level Day 1 starter. You know who I'm talking about. I'm still not clear what you think his warts are. Compare him to the successful Top 10 OT's and he checks all the boxes. I remember this same stuff when Stanley and Lewan were coming out. Paralysis by over analysis. The early starting successes all have the same thing in common...technique.


He really checks every box. You and I see things very similar, I think.
RE: GiantsFan84  
Ivan15 : 4/3/2020 4:12 pm : link
In comment 14858268 Keaton028 said:
Quote:
Don’t we kind of have to trust the rookie HC and new DC? They are a complete unknown and without knowing what schemes they will operate, how can we label them as incompetent and not trust them? We literally know nothing about Judge. If your gripe is with that so be it, but to not trust them on selecting a draft pick to fit into a scheme we have no idea they are running, seems futile.


This is a discussion that needs a separate thread so I will say only that Judge/Garrett/Graham come with no preconceived notion as to how this team is going to look. That's good but different than the last 2 coaching regimes. McAdoo brought in an offense that was implemented (by him) even before he became HC, and he brought Spags to implement a defense like we were all familiar with. Shurmur inherited McAdoo's offense, changed it a bit, but his marching orders were to tweak the offense and transition the team and the offense to fit the new QB without knowing who that would be. Bettcher was expected to bring the defensive scheme he developed at Arizona. Neither regime delivered what was expected.

There are no expectations for the new HC or the new regime. The only expectation of Judge is that he will be a good HC who will cajole, nudge and drag his staff and players to be competitive. No one knows what the defensive scheme will look like, although we all suspect it will look something like New England's. No one knows what the offense will look like, although we suspect it will look like Dallas's. Judge was either smart enough to not lock himself into any schemes or dumb enough not to have any clue.
RE: If Sy is right about his ranking and Washington and Detroit  
Biteymax22 : 4/3/2020 4:18 pm : link
In comment 14858440 gidiefor said:
Quote:
both pick Defense there a very good chance Simmons won't be there when the Giants pick anyway. Patricia certainly knows what to do with him.


Very valid point, but at the same time, the NE style defenses have leaned on strong corner play in recent years. Once Slay was traded DET had a gaping hole there, which is why Okudah makes sense.

At the same time, if they take Simmons, I'd think Okudah is in play for us with the same reasoning. With him and Bradberry on the outside we can move Baker into the slot where his long speed isn't exposed and have a pretty darn good set of cover corners. It would make it a lot easier for our poor pass rush to get to the QB.

With that being said, I'd still rather trade down a couple spots and take the best available OT in that position.
RE: RE:  
Festina Lente : 4/3/2020 4:21 pm : link
In comment 14858501 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14858496 Torrag said:


Quote:


Still not a gamble when you're going to get a high level Day 1 starter. You know who I'm talking about. I'm still not clear what you think his warts are. Compare him to the successful Top 10 OT's and he checks all the boxes. I remember this same stuff when Stanley and Lewan were coming out. Paralysis by over analysis. The early starting successes all have the same thing in common...technique.



He really checks every box. You and I see things very similar, I think.


If you gentleman are both referring to WIlls, I was astonished at his balance and footwork during the combine. I disagree with those that think only LT's should be drafted highly. IMO, RT are almost equally important these days. If you have a clean, intelligent, reliable RT that will start for your team for a decade it is a good damn pick.
RE: If Sy is right about his ranking and Washington and Detroit  
Sy'56 : 4/3/2020 4:23 pm : link
In comment 14858440 gidiefor said:
Quote:
both pick Defense there a very good chance Simmons won't be there when the Giants pick anyway. Patricia certainly knows what to do with him.


I am the only one in my circle that feels Simmons to DET is still possible. Some are saying that the signing of Jamie Collins and trade for SS Duron Harmon wipes out Simmons, but I don't agree.
RE: SY if you could please  
Sy'56 : 4/3/2020 4:28 pm : link
In comment 14858477 Festina Lente said:
Quote:
I'd really like to hear your opinion on Blake Martinez and the NYG picking him up.

I tend to think the backlash to his signing seemed a bit over the top but I concede that I hardly confident of my opinion.


I wasn't aware there was any backlash.

Anyway - He is a good player. Reliable, often at the right place at the right time, good tackler, tough and hard nosed. Not gonna make a ton of plays, gets exposed up the seam in coverage.

He is an upgrade over Ogletree.
I appreciate the write up  
Rudy5757 : 4/3/2020 4:34 pm : link
It still is a concern to me taking a player at 4 that is just a cover guy in Simmons. I think teams like SF, Tennessee and Dallas would eat him up with the power game. I like the gamble of Simmons a lot more after the top 10. At 4 I want a guy that can play in any scheme and is just a good football player not just good when he is in the right situation.

I am concerned about having to design the D around a non physical player. Where is he going to play on 3rd and short? I know people are really excited by his athleticism but for a guy with all that talent he didnt make as many impact plays as he should. He only had 16 Tackles for Loss ranking him 24 in the nation last year. When he hits people he doesnt pop them, hes a chase and drag guy. High ceiling low floor guy that would do real well with a talented D but I dont see him raising the talent around him and we dont have a talented D. I hope Washington or Detroit takes us off the hook.
RE: I appreciate the write up  
AcesUp : 4/3/2020 4:42 pm : link
In comment 14858540 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:
It still is a concern to me taking a player at 4 that is just a cover guy in Simmons. I think teams like SF, Tennessee and Dallas would eat him up with the power game. I like the gamble of Simmons a lot more after the top 10. At 4 I want a guy that can play in any scheme and is just a good football player not just good when he is in the right situation.

I am concerned about having to design the D around a non physical player. Where is he going to play on 3rd and short? I know people are really excited by his athleticism but for a guy with all that talent he didnt make as many impact plays as he should. He only had 16 Tackles for Loss ranking him 24 in the nation last year. When he hits people he doesnt pop them, hes a chase and drag guy. High ceiling low floor guy that would do real well with a talented D but I dont see him raising the talent around him and we dont have a talented D. I hope Washington or Detroit takes us off the hook.


I wouldn't classify the Niners as a power run team. Their run game is based on deception and misdirection. The Ravens as well. The Cards completely gashed us on the ground last year, they didn't lineup in 2 TE and jam it right down our throats. They did it by spreading us out with multiple WR sets to make us smaller on defense and playing RPO off Murray. Simmons isn't a liability against these running attacks, he's an assett if you're using him properly.

There aren't a ton of teams playing "bully ball" anymore. Dallas and Tennessee are two of them, so you are right there but they're few and far between.
RE: Picking Simmons is a classic Jerry Reese selection.  
santacruzom : 4/3/2020 4:46 pm : link
In comment 14858073 cosmicj said:
Quote:
You have a screaming need on the offensive line and some good prospects who are in the general range of our pick.

But instead let's pick a speed/athletic guy to shore up a problem that could be helped another way.


I suppose the need on defense isn't screaming -- it's outright howling in blood-curdling agony.
RE: I appreciate the write up  
allstarjim : 4/3/2020 5:13 pm : link
In comment 14858540 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:
It still is a concern to me taking a player at 4 that is just a cover guy in Simmons. I think teams like SF, Tennessee and Dallas would eat him up with the power game. I like the gamble of Simmons a lot more after the top 10. At 4 I want a guy that can play in any scheme and is just a good football player not just good when he is in the right situation.

I am concerned about having to design the D around a non physical player. Where is he going to play on 3rd and short? I know people are really excited by his athleticism but for a guy with all that talent he didnt make as many impact plays as he should. He only had 16 Tackles for Loss ranking him 24 in the nation last year. When he hits people he doesnt pop them, hes a chase and drag guy. High ceiling low floor guy that would do real well with a talented D but I dont see him raising the talent around him and we dont have a talented D. I hope Washington or Detroit takes us off the hook.


Easy...safety or contain on the outside. Highest ceiling, high floor guy, actually.
If he is there  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 4/3/2020 5:15 pm : link
I would run to the virtual podium to get him. The NFL is changing and he is the type of talent to neutralize some of that change.
Question is Okudah  
Samiam : 4/3/2020 5:44 pm : link
Like gidiefor said above, there’s a good chance Patricia drafts Simmons with the 3rd pick which Okudah probably the highest rated player available.

I don’t know how many games the Giants lost last year and the year before on the last drive of the game or close to it. For the last 2 or 3 years, the defense has been borderline horrible’. They’ve added Bradbury, Martinez and Fackrell and lost Golden (& Jenkins & Ogletree). Who knows what we have in Beall even if he is healthy or Baker or Ballantine. Who knows what Connelly is capable of if healthy. With all the money spent in free agency, the defense, if its better at all, is a little better. I think Simmons or Okudah would be rated definitively higher than any offensive lineman in the draft and makes the team much better. If they are not available or trade down some’ that’s a different story.
Sy  
Anakim : 4/3/2020 5:46 pm : link
No mention of Markus Bailey of Purdue?
RE: I appreciate the write up  
Strahan91 : 4/3/2020 5:47 pm : link
In comment 14858540 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:

I am concerned about having to design the D around a non physical player. Where is he going to play on 3rd and short? I know people are really excited by his athleticism but for a guy with all that talent he didnt make as many impact plays as he should. He only had 16 Tackles for Loss ranking him 24 in the nation last year. When he hits people he doesnt pop them, hes a chase and drag guy. High ceiling low floor guy that would do real well with a talented D but I dont see him raising the talent around him and we dont have a talented D. I hope Washington or Detroit takes us off the hook.

24th in the nation in TFL (or 1 less than Murray) despite playing 40% of his snaps at slot CB and you're using this to knock him?
I’m all in on Simmons  
JoeyBigBlue : 4/3/2020 6:32 pm : link
You don’t see many prospects get over an 87 with Sy and Summons just did. The kid is everything we are lacking on defense.
"Okudah probably the highest rated player available."  
Torrag : 4/3/2020 6:40 pm : link
He doesn't grade appreciably higher than the top OT's. Certainly not in a higher 'row' or group. Neither does Simmons or Brown. Take the OT. The impact on Jones and Barkley once we get this O-Line playing at a high level makes it the priority when choosing among similar ranked prospects.
RE: Sy  
Sy'56 : 4/3/2020 6:41 pm : link
In comment 14858587 Anakim said:
Quote:
No mention of Markus Bailey of Purdue?


I wrote him up - he is #29 on my board.

2 knee injuries. Plays stiff. Like him as a thumper, most teams will carry one of those guys but needs to factor on special teams. Just think there are several thumpers above him on the board.
Has there ever been a Top 5 draft CB that didn't crack 4.5/40 barrier?  
Torrag : 4/3/2020 6:44 pm : link
There are obviously great CB's that have run in that range when tested. And film trumps all. But has the NFL taken one that high in the Draft who didn't?
Thoughts re  
Mike in NY : 4/3/2020 6:47 pm : link
David Woodward?
RE: RE: I appreciate the write up  
Rudy5757 : 4/3/2020 6:48 pm : link
In comment 14858566 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14858540 Rudy5757 said:


Quote:


It still is a concern to me taking a player at 4 that is just a cover guy in Simmons. I think teams like SF, Tennessee and Dallas would eat him up with the power game. I like the gamble of Simmons a lot more after the top 10. At 4 I want a guy that can play in any scheme and is just a good football player not just good when he is in the right situation.

I am concerned about having to design the D around a non physical player. Where is he going to play on 3rd and short? I know people are really excited by his athleticism but for a guy with all that talent he didnt make as many impact plays as he should. He only had 16 Tackles for Loss ranking him 24 in the nation last year. When he hits people he doesnt pop them, hes a chase and drag guy. High ceiling low floor guy that would do real well with a talented D but I dont see him raising the talent around him and we dont have a talented D. I hope Washington or Detroit takes us off the hook.



Easy...safety or contain on the outside. Highest ceiling, high floor guy, actually.


I appreciate everyone opinion, we can agree to disagree. I'm not seeing enough of the big plays out of him when it counts for a guy as athletic as him. the guys that have dominated in the NFL are usually very physical. Very rare to see a guy thats not physical dominate. PrimeTime Sanders was one, I cant think of another. I think he will be a good pro I just don't see the game changer that others see and guys in the NFL are bigger, faster and stronger, you cant just get by on athleticism like you can in college. He wasn't dominant in the bigger games which is a big red flag for me. Your stars have to show up in the big games.
As I was gearing up for the BBI mock draft  
NoGainDayne : 4/3/2020 6:52 pm : link
I had my eye on Murray the whole time. I wasn't sure if i'd be getting flack for it though honestly. I saw him as low as 70 in some prospect rankings. It was really hard for me to see why though not a lot to mark him down for.

He looks like someone that can come in and go to the pro bowl year in, year out.
Chris Orr  
Jay in Toronto : 4/3/2020 7:09 pm : link
Did you watch much tape on him. I saw him live vs Miami at the Pinstripe Bowl in 2018 where he was a man among boys and he had 10 TFLs I believe last year.

I'd be interested by he didn't make your list at all.
I also think the Reggie Bush comparison is a bad one  
NoGainDayne : 4/3/2020 7:12 pm : link
IMO Bush had a problem of size more than anything. He couldn't outrun like he could in college then didn't have the physicality to his game.

If you flip it around to the other side of the ball there are few players you could say you can't game plan against them. As explosive as OBJ or Saquon are we've seen first hand that without the right game plan you could make them disappear.

Simmons is no different. I think his value as a spy cannot be lost for one there is so much you have to do around a mobile QB now that can open up other holes in your D. Look no further than Lamar Jackson for that.

But Simmons is a weapon. It keeps on coming up with us but today's NFL especially is about multiple looks and keeping your opponent guessing. There aren't many players in the NFL like Simmons in terms of how well he could help you show a different look than have him surprise the offense with what he's doing on a play without him being a liability.

IMO if the offense knows what you are going to do you have bigger problems than Simmons being blockable. If you want to keep an offense off balance a player like Simmons gives you a unique advantage to do that, a player that teams aren't running drills to account for week in week out because his skill set is quite uncommon and you won't get as many practice reps preparing for gameplans that include them.
Starting  
PaulN : 4/3/2020 7:13 pm : link
Out with 61-63 teams, then watching the LT years, then Strahan years, then Tuck, Pierre Paul. There is nothing I hate more then watching a shit defense, sorry, but defense for the Football Giants is a must, it is the Giants identity.
This is what worries me about Simmons.  
Rudy5757 : 4/3/2020 7:19 pm : link
Look at the play where it says Dobbins breaks free for a huge gain. He is playing left end/outside LB. The OT doesnt really block him hard but he completely gives up on the play. With his speed he should be chasing down guys until they score. This was a big game against Ohio State where you need to be giving everything. Also the other long run early where he is completely unaware that its a run play despite the WR basically giving up.

This is one example but you see it as a pattern when you watch full games. There isnt enough fight in him in my opinion.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: This is what worries me about Simmons.  
Del Shofner : 4/3/2020 8:25 pm : link
In comment 14858646 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:
Look at the play where it says Dobbins breaks free for a huge gain. He is playing left end/outside LB. The OT doesnt really block him hard but he completely gives up on the play. With his speed he should be chasing down guys until they score. This was a big game against Ohio State where you need to be giving everything. Also the other long run early where he is completely unaware that its a run play despite the WR basically giving up.

This is one example but you see it as a pattern when you watch full games. There isnt enough fight in him in my opinion. Link - ( New Window )


I agree completely.
If the draft goes Burrows, Young and Simmons with no trades down  
SGMen : 4/3/2020 8:31 pm : link
The Giants WILL likely get an offer to trade down and take it despite CB Okudah being on the board as BPA.

We have so many holes and while I like Simmons as a "role player" and all, a guy who can spy today's NFL running QB's and such, he does have some question marks too.

If we trade down to say #6 and get a #2 as well I still think we get a quality guy, probably an OL, and take a quality WR who falls with the 2nd round pick. We definitely can use an OC and OT, for sure, but its a question of value when you pick.

The draft can't come fast enough for me.
RE: This is what worries me about Simmons.  
aGiantGuy : 4/3/2020 9:44 pm : link
In comment 14858646 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:
Look at the play where it says Dobbins breaks free for a huge gain. He is playing left end/outside LB. The OT doesnt really block him hard but he completely gives up on the play. With his speed he should be chasing down guys until they score. This was a big game against Ohio State where you need to be giving everything. Also the other long run early where he is completely unaware that its a run play despite the WR basically giving up.

This is one example but you see it as a pattern when you watch full games. There isnt enough fight in him in my opinion. Link - ( New Window )


You do realize that Simmons has C gap on that play right? If he tries to double gap, Dobbins will go outside and it’s Simmons job to force Dobbins back to his help.

Did you miss the part where #7 got Reached out of his B Gap?
Even if #7 gets reached, #47 didn’t get blocked and should be free to clean it up. But let’s blame this on Simmons, who is about the only player on his team playing this action the right way.

Shaking my head.
RE: RE: I appreciate the write up  
allstarjim : 4/3/2020 10:23 pm : link
In comment 14858591 Strahan91 said:
Quote:
In comment 14858540 Rudy5757 said:


Quote:



I am concerned about having to design the D around a non physical player. Where is he going to play on 3rd and short? I know people are really excited by his athleticism but for a guy with all that talent he didnt make as many impact plays as he should. He only had 16 Tackles for Loss ranking him 24 in the nation last year. When he hits people he doesnt pop them, hes a chase and drag guy. High ceiling low floor guy that would do real well with a talented D but I dont see him raising the talent around him and we dont have a talented D. I hope Washington or Detroit takes us off the hook.


24th in the nation in TFL (or 1 less than Murray) despite playing 40% of his snaps at slot CB and you're using this to knock him?


That's ba great stat...keeping in mind he spent time not just a nickel but as a deep Safety as well.

RE: RE: This is what worries me about Simmons.  
Rudy5757 : 4/3/2020 10:31 pm : link
In comment 14858758 aGiantGuy said:
Quote:
In comment 14858646 Rudy5757 said:


Quote:


Look at the play where it says Dobbins breaks free for a huge gain. He is playing left end/outside LB. The OT doesnt really block him hard but he completely gives up on the play. With his speed he should be chasing down guys until they score. This was a big game against Ohio State where you need to be giving everything. Also the other long run early where he is completely unaware that its a run play despite the WR basically giving up.

This is one example but you see it as a pattern when you watch full games. There isnt enough fight in him in my opinion. Link - ( New Window )



You do realize that Simmons has C gap on that play right? If he tries to double gap, Dobbins will go outside and it’s Simmons job to force Dobbins back to his help.

Did you miss the part where #7 got Reached out of his B Gap?
Even if #7 gets reached, #47 didn’t get blocked and should be free to clean it up. But let’s blame this on Simmons, who is about the only player on his team playing this action the right way.

Shaking my head.


I am not blaming him for the big plays. The 1st one he gives up. No fight to get back in while the OT gives little effort to block him. The 2nd again not blaming him for the big play. The awareness isn't there. No recognition that it's a running play.

This is a small sample but I see it in other games and this was a championship game. I see this guy make great plays and then he disappears. Like I said, at 4 I want more pop on D. What I don't know is if he studies to get better or is he relying on just his physical gifts. If we take him I hope I'm wrong and I hope as Sy says they use him correctly. I had no confidence in the last staff but the guy also has to want it.
Simmons is a steal at #4. They rarely come along .  
TMS : 4/3/2020 10:45 pm : link
In a spot you can draft them. Sideline to sideline LB who can cover and rush the passer as well. He is no brainer. Maybe prove more valuable than Young. Hard to get these guys unless you draft really early. Take them when you get the chance. DG knows this.
Don’t see what you’re seeing, at all  
aGiantGuy : 4/3/2020 10:49 pm : link
I’m just gonna tell you right now, the Ohio St game, is not the game to poke holes in. To say the least he had a great game. The 1st run he was playing man on a slot receiver, you are taught that you have no run responsibilities when you are playing man away from the box. The second run, he had his gap, if he starts playing other people’s gap responsibilities that would be more concerning to NFL teams.

Let’s take a step back here, there’s only 2 linebackers that I know of, to come out in the last 6 years that can double gap a tackle and still make that tackle on Dobbins, their names are Khalil Mack and Chase Young. And neither of them are even coming close to making his game winning interception playing deep half safety.

This is the type of prospect we’re talking about here, someone who will hold their own in a C gap and create takeaways as a deep half safety. If you can’t see the potential in that, then I don’t know what to say
RE: Has there ever been a Top 5 draft CB that didn't crack 4.5/40 barrier?  
widmerseyebrow : 4/3/2020 11:04 pm : link
In comment 14858616 Torrag said:
Quote:
There are obviously great CB's that have run in that range when tested. And film trumps all. But has the NFL taken one that high in the Draft who didn't?


Joe Haden was the first to come to my mind. He was taken #7 with 4.52 40 at the combine.
RE: I also think the Reggie Bush comparison is a bad one  
widmerseyebrow : 4/3/2020 11:13 pm : link
In comment 14858641 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
IMO Bush had a problem of size more than anything. He couldn't outrun like he could in college then didn't have the physicality to his game.


Those are mostly hindsight observations. In the lead up to the draft that year he was touted as the next great running back in same vein as Barry Sanders. Even those that acknowledged his struggles running between the tackles thought that his versatility and pass catching ability would make him unstoppable if he was used properly. It was a shock when the Texans went with Mario Williams at #1 and everyone thought the Saints with Sean Payton's offensive creativity was a match made in heaven. The rest is history.

I saw a lot of him in person in college, and while I saw explosion and open field creativity, I thought his game would suffer with the step up in competition. But I was certainly in the minority back then.
RE: Don’t see what you’re seeing, at all  
OdellLovesOBJ : 4/3/2020 11:19 pm : link
In comment 14858779 aGiantGuy said:
Quote:
I’m just gonna tell you right now, the Ohio St game, is not the game to poke holes in. To say the least he had a great game. The 1st run he was playing man on a slot receiver, you are taught that you have no run responsibilities when you are playing man away from the box. The second run, he had his gap, if he starts playing other people’s gap responsibilities that would be more concerning to NFL teams.

Let’s take a step back here, there’s only 2 linebackers that I know of, to come out in the last 6 years that can double gap a tackle and still make that tackle on Dobbins, their names are Khalil Mack and Chase Young. And neither of them are even coming close to making his game winning interception playing deep half safety.

This is the type of prospect we’re talking about here, someone who will hold their own in a C gap and create takeaways as a deep half safety. If you can’t see the potential in that, then I don’t know what to say



Thank you for your insight! Most of us don't know our X's and O's and rely on vision and recaps to determine a player's effectiveness. Simmons has to be the pick at #4. This should be a player that the coaching staff designs the defense around to utilize his athleticism, speed and explosiveness. LT changed the game and Harry Carson supported him by running the defense and giving him the flexibility to be the greatest of all time. Not saying Simmons will be LT but Martinez can be his poor man's Carson and coordinate the defense and stop the run.
As expected huge grade for Simmons.  
90.Cal : 4/4/2020 12:14 am : link
Sy'56 thanks for your insight.

Just for kicks, I know your a scout not a coach but...

How would you deploy Simmons, differently, for example, versus our division opponents, Dallas, Philly and Washington?
RE: RE: I also think the Reggie Bush comparison is a bad one  
allstarjim : 4/4/2020 1:38 am : link
In comment 14858795 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
In comment 14858641 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


IMO Bush had a problem of size more than anything. He couldn't outrun like he could in college then didn't have the physicality to his game.



Those are mostly hindsight observations. In the lead up to the draft that year he was touted as the next great running back in same vein as Barry Sanders. Even those that acknowledged his struggles running between the tackles thought that his versatility and pass catching ability would make him unstoppable if he was used properly. It was a shock when the Texans went with Mario Williams at #1 and everyone thought the Saints with Sean Payton's offensive creativity was a match made in heaven. The rest is history.

I saw a lot of him in person in college, and while I saw explosion and open field creativity, I thought his game would suffer with the step up in competition. But I was certainly in the minority back then.


Plenty of people said Reggie Bush was not a between the tackles guy, and he wasn't a 25 carry guy, he was a 10-12 touches per game guy, but if you could get him in space, those 10-12 touches could really impact the game.

That was the book on him, before the draft. Simmons has nothing to do with Reggie Bush.
RE: Starting  
Eman11 : 4/4/2020 7:17 am : link
In comment 14858643 PaulN said:
Quote:
Out with 61-63 teams, then watching the LT years, then Strahan years, then Tuck, Pierre Paul. There is nothing I hate more then watching a shit defense, sorry, but defense for the Football Giants is a must, it is the Giants identity.


+1

I feel the same only I started out a few years later. 68-70 for me and I remember my dad telling me stories of years earlier where the D would leave the field and hope the O wouldn't give up any points.
RE: RE: Starting  
Victor in CT : 4/4/2020 7:31 am : link
In comment 14858833 Eman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 14858643 PaulN said:


Quote:


Out with 61-63 teams, then watching the LT years, then Strahan years, then Tuck, Pierre Paul. There is nothing I hate more then watching a shit defense, sorry, but defense for the Football Giants is a must, it is the Giants identity.



+1

I feel the same only I started out a few years later. 68-70 for me and I remember my dad telling me stories of years earlier where the D would leave the field and hope the O wouldn't give up any points.


Yes, my Dad did the same with me. HOLD 'EM OFFENSE!
RE: Don’t see what you’re seeing, at all  
Rudy5757 : 4/4/2020 7:54 am : link
In comment 14858779 aGiantGuy said:
Quote:
I’m just gonna tell you right now, the Ohio St game, is not the game to poke holes in. To say the least he had a great game. The 1st run he was playing man on a slot receiver, you are taught that you have no run responsibilities when you are playing man away from the box. The second run, he had his gap, if he starts playing other people’s gap responsibilities that would be more concerning to NFL teams.

Let’s take a step back here, there’s only 2 linebackers that I know of, to come out in the last 6 years that can double gap a tackle and still make that tackle on Dobbins, their names are Khalil Mack and Chase Young. And neither of them are even coming close to making his game winning interception playing deep half safety.

This is the type of prospect we’re talking about here, someone who will hold their own in a C gap and create takeaways as a deep half safety. If you can’t see the potential in that, then I don’t know what to say


Again I am not questioning the assignment. It's the effort. It's a championship game, he saw the RB and didn't give the effort to chase him down. He let his teammates do it. Conversely, our own Justin Tuck in a preseason game ran down a rb 30 yards down field. That's what I want at 4. Simmons will be good at times but he will not make the guys around him better. I want a better football player at 4 and less athlete. On a good football team he will be good. On a bad team like the Giants he won't be able to be the player we need. Remember he played on the best D in college. That's not the case here.

Pass at 4 for me but if we can drop and get a pick and Simmons that would be better.
RE: RE: Don’t see what you’re seeing, at all  
section125 : 4/4/2020 7:57 am : link
In comment 14858840 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:
In comment 14858779 aGiantGuy said:


Quote:


I’m just gonna tell you right now, the Ohio St game, is not the game to poke holes in. To say the least he had a great game. The 1st run he was playing man on a slot receiver, you are taught that you have no run responsibilities when you are playing man away from the box. The second run, he had his gap, if he starts playing other people’s gap responsibilities that would be more concerning to NFL teams.

Let’s take a step back here, there’s only 2 linebackers that I know of, to come out in the last 6 years that can double gap a tackle and still make that tackle on Dobbins, their names are Khalil Mack and Chase Young. And neither of them are even coming close to making his game winning interception playing deep half safety.

This is the type of prospect we’re talking about here, someone who will hold their own in a C gap and create takeaways as a deep half safety. If you can’t see the potential in that, then I don’t know what to say



Again I am not questioning the assignment. It's the effort. It's a championship game, he saw the RB and didn't give the effort to chase him down. He let his teammates do it. Conversely, our own Justin Tuck in a preseason game ran down a rb 30 yards down field. That's what I want at 4. Simmons will be good at times but he will not make the guys around him better. I want a better football player at 4 and less athlete. On a good football team he will be good. On a bad team like the Giants he won't be able to be the player we need. Remember he played on the best D in college. That's not the case here.

Pass at 4 for me but if we can drop and get a pick and Simmons that would be better.


So, he is good enough at #5 or #6 but not good enough at #4?
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