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2020 NFL Draft Preview: Linebacker

Sy'56 : 4/3/2020 9:05 am
LINEBACKER

Format includes a quick position overview, my grading scale and what the number mean, the summary and final grade from my final report on my top 15, a quick additional note on the player, and my ranks 16-25 with grades only.

*I AM NOT DOING NFL COMPARISONS

Quick Position Overview

Keep in mind I have an “EDGE” position preview coming up next week, so I may not go in to some of those linebackers in this preview. I am mainly talking about the off-ball guys that primarily play between the tackles. Depending on what NYG uses as their base personnel, we are likely looking at the newly signed Blake Martinez and second year kid Ryan Connelly, who is coming off a torn ACL after raising some eyebrows in 4 games. Neither of them are worth getting overly excited about, but that doesn’t mean the position is a weak point, not at all. In fact, especially if Connelly recovers well, the two should provide really good run defense between the tackles and to the sidelines.

The question here is two-fold. Will they be exposed in the passing game? Is there enough depth and intra-roster competition? David Mayo will be back to provide both and while we can’t look down on his performance in 2019, he is best suited for the backup role. Josiah Tauaefa looks to be a solid special teamer and backup, maybe similar to what they had in Chase Blackburn and Calvin Munson in the past. I’m not sure I see Chris Peace or Nate Harvey sticking to a 53 man roster. I think the hole they have here is coverage, as none of the above mentioned guys can hang with quality tight ends or pass catching backs. It’s been an issue for years and there isn’t a current solution on the roster.

GRADING SCALE

90+ All Pro Projection
85+: Pro Bowl Projection
81-84: First rounder – should be able to play right away
79-80: 2nd Rounder – Should be able to rotate right away – Year 2 starter
77-78: 3rd rounder – Should be able to rotate by end of rookie year – Year 2/3 starter
74-76: Early Day 3 – Special Teams – Future backup/possible starter
71-73: Mid Day 3 – Special Teams – Future backup / gamble starter
68-70: Late Day 3 - Back end of roster / Practice Squad / Development guy
65-67: Preferred UDFA
60-64: Undrafted FA



TOP 15 GRADES AND ANALYSIS

*Zack Baun, Terrell Lewis, Azur Kamara, Carter Coughlin are all graded in EDGE group


1. Isaiah Simmons / Clemson / 6'4 - 238

Grade: 89


Summary: Fourth year junior entry and two year starter from Olathe, Kansas. After an accomplished high school football and long jump career, Simmons redshirted his first year on campus at Clemson. When he finally got on the field in 2017, his upside jumped off the screen and the coaches knew they had a budding star that couldn’t be kept to one position. They moved him around a lot, seeing snaps at linebacker, nickel corner, safety, and edge rusher. It resulted in two straight years of production across the board, leading the team in tackles in 2018 and 2019 respectively in addition to 25.5 TFL and 9.5 sacks. Simmons also intercepted 4 passes, broke up 13 others, and forced 4 fumbles over that span. Simply put, he is a defensive playmaker that will wear several hats for a defense if schemed properly. He is a very non-traditional player, thus putting him in to a traditional role would be a massive mistake. Simmons is the player you scheme around, not the other way around.

*I have done more research and re-watching of tape on Simmons than any non-QB I have ever scouted. No, not because I wasn’t sure of him being elite or close to elite, but because he has played in countless roles against countless style-offenses. He plays to a sub 4.4 (which he ran at the combine), his stats are NOT inflated, and what really puts me over the hill on him are the reports I got on his character and intelligence. If you are going to gamble on an athlete at the top of the draft, make sure the intangibles are there. Simmons’ role within this defense is unknown to me – that is above my pay grade.

Do I think it can work? Absolutely. Do I think this kid is going to make plays on a defense that doesn’t have a playmaker? Absolutely. Do I think this kid can cover tight ends, spy the most athletic quarterbacks, and rush the passer? Absolutely. You just have to make sure you aren’t keeping him in one spot. As said in my summary, you need to build the scheme around him, not the other way around. If this new, motivated, young, innovation-hungry scheme is confident they can do with Simmons, pull the trigger. But one must know, he isn’t instinctive or stout against the run. He flashes power on the move but he won’t handle NFL linemen and blocking tight ends well. Put him in the wrong role, he is a day 2 kind of player.


2. Kenneth Murray / Oklahoma / 6’3 – 241

Grade: 87


Summary: Junior entry. Three year starter from Missouri City, Texas. Murray burst on to the scene in 2017, winning the Big 12 Freshman Defensive Player of the Year Award. He was a part of the All-Big 12 team all three years and ended his career as an All American. He started all 42 games of that career and has been the heartbeat to the defense. Murray has been touted for both his leadership and play by coaches and opponents alike. He is the kind of player that any team can stick in to the middle of their defense and know they have a true three down player that will make others around him better. Murray has the physical tools and mental acuity to be a star in the middle.

*It is possible, that if it weren’t for Simmons, Murray would be in the discussion for the 4th overall pick in my eyes. I don’t think he would end up being my guy, but this is the first LB I have really wanted to compare to Patrick Willis or Luke Kuechly. Everything about this kid is what the modern inside linebacker needs. Speed, burst, power, range in coverage, and true leadership. I was pretty high on Devin Bush and Devin White last year, both of which had good rookie years. Murray is better. There are a couple medical red flags that need to be looked in to further.

3. Logan Wilson / Wyoming / 6’2 – 241

Grade: 81


Summary: Fifth year senior from Casper, Wyoming. He arrived at Wyoming as a 185 pound defensive back. After his redshirt year, Wilson moved to linebacker and earned the Mountain West Freshman of the Year Award. He was a three time All Mountain West honoree and finished his career as an All American. The high school track standout blends the new and old age linebacker in to one package. He has the NFL body but can move like a safety. His strengths are on display when he is in space pursuing the action and covering tight ends and backs. He does struggle mightily when taking on blocks, but he is entering the league at the right time as cover linebackers are in high demand and Wilson brings that to the table without giving up too much against the run.

*10 years ago we would have labeled this kid as a linebacker that wasn’t stout enough. To be real, stoutness is less of a factor than it has ever been and the ability to run, chase, and cover are more important. Wilson, with good size, moves really well and was really productive. Smart kid, will start early in his career. Can play multiple spots.


4. Patrick Queen / LSU / 6’0 – 229

Grade: 81


Summary: Junior entry. Two year starter from Ventress, Louisiana. Over the course of his final two years on campus, Queen started just over a full season’s worth of games. By the end of LSU’s championship run he was arguably the top defensive player on the team. He evolved in to a weapon that was all over the field on every down. The NFL’s desire for speed and coverage ability will make Queen a sought after commodity, as his tools in space are near the elite level. He is still growing and evolving as an interior run defender and there are mental lapses that show up from time to time, but this is the kind of linebacker that every team wants now. High upside player.

*I have Queen as a late first round talent as you can see but I can confirm that many don’t see a round 1 guy. As good as he looks at times, the two things NFL coaches and scouts won’t like are the lack of size (especially his short arms) and the fact he was a 1 year starter. And to build off that, he wasn’t the starter at the beginning of the season. He only got in there when he did because Michael Divinity got in some off-field trouble that led to a suspension.

5. Akeem Davis-Gaither / Appalachian State / 6’2 – 224

Grade: 77


Summary: Fifth year senior from Thomasville, North Carolina. Two year starter. Finished 2018 off with a 2nd Team All Sun Belt honor before really taking off as a senior. 2019 Sun Belt Defensive Player of the Year. Davis-Gaither was a team captain and obvious leader of the defense that set the tone each and every week. His speed and burst were just too much to handle for his opponents and it was able to impact the game in several ways. He lined up as an edge rusher and showed plus-blitzing ability, he lined up as an inside run defender and was able to move through traffic well enough, and he lined in space as an effective cover linebacker. He won’t be a schematic fit for several teams but a defense that wants to add speed and versatility but can also keep him out of downhill run stuffing responsibilities will have a high outlook on him.

*I see some Telvin Smith here. Undersized, short reach, slight frame. But this dude can move at a different speed than his opponents and he will evade blockers well. Really fun player to watch but he needs to be protected. I don’t see him impact the game as a blitzer or interior run defender, but he will fly around and cover backs with ease.

6. Troy Dye / Oregon / 6’3 – 231

Grade: 77


Summary: Senior entry from Norco, California. Four year starter that led the Ducks in tackles all four seasons. Three time 2nd Team All Pac 12 defender following his Honorable Mention 2016 season. Dye finished his career near the top of the program’s all time tackles list. He has been a productive player across the board and it showed both on the stat sheet and on tape. He lined up all over the field and got to the action one way or another, proving his intelligence and athleticism. His slight frame will need work if he is going to be playing between the tackles at the next level but his ability to factor in space and potential to be a credible every down linebacker is enough to hide his deficiencies. He is a new-age linebacker that doesn’t give up too much as a thumper.

*Dye was as the top of my senior LB stack last summer. I love this kid’s game and more important, I love his consistency. You know what you’re getting week to week. Dye is another current-age linebacker that will be more effective in space than he is in traffic, but he stays plays tough between the tackles. He won’t be a star, but he will contribute on special teams right away and offer some potential as a starting weak side presence.

7. Malik Harrison / Ohio State / 6'3 - 247

Grade: 77


Summary: Senior entry from Columbus, Ohio. Two year starter that earned 1st Team All Big 10 honors in 2019, Honorable Mention in 2018. Also 3rd Team All American as a senior. Harrison has the NFL-ready size and power presence to factor right away against the run. He can handle NFL offensive lineman with his combination of man-strength and top tier length. Once in the open field, he can really get moving with long stride speed, which will be an asset against athletic tight ends. He came to Ohio State as a former high school quarterback that wanted to play wide receiver for the Buckeyes, so that is the kind of athlete we are talking about here. He could end up projecting to the strong side in a 4-3 front long term as a starter with the option of providing some middle-type roles.

*Harrison is overlooked a bit when it comes to how freaky of an athlete he is. He has some of the best triangle numbers (height + weight + speed) at the position. Remember, this kid came to Ohio State to play wide receiver! When I watched his tape, I saw a lot of rawness, indecision, and inconsistency. But when he did line things up, when he did make proper reads, he looked dominant. Harrison is a high upside, really athletic linebacker that simply needs time to sit back on the depth chart and get acclimated. If it clicks, watch out. Really nice fit for NYG’s situation if they can find a way to get their hands on him round 3 or 4.

8. Jordyn Brooks / Texas Tech / 6’0 – 240

Grade: 77


Summary: Senior entry from Houston, Texas. Four-year starter that led Texas Tech in tackles three of those years. Honorable Mention All Big 12 in 2016, 2017, and 2018 respectively before going on to being named 1st Team All Big 12 and 2nd Team All American in 2019. Brooks is an aggressive, fast, attacking downhill defender that made 20 tackles for loss as a senior. That number was a tad inflated as he was almost-always sent on blitzes, but his athletic ability and closing style make him an attractive prospect. He is quick enough to factor in coverage, he just didn’t have a ton of experience in that role. Brooks has the ability to start in the NFL but at the very least will be a special teams contributor and plus-run defender.

*Brooks is going to be a gamble, I think some teams won’t even look at him. He has very little experience in coverage, he was purely a downhill guy. But there are still plenty of schemes that need the thumper inside and that he is. However he also brings 4.6 speed to the table, a nasty, physical guy. He screams Ravens to me. And I always love how their linebackers perform and help them win games.

9. Anfernee Jennings / Alabama / 6’2 – 256

Grade: 74


Summary: Fifth year senior from Dadeville, Alabama. Three year starter. 1st Team All SEC in 2019. Jennings has been a mainstay on the Tide’s defense for three seasons. He is one of the more versatile players in the class, as he has seen plenty of experience as an edge rusher and inside linebacker. He will likely make a full time move to middle as a two down thumper between the tackles that can add something as a pass rusher on 3rd down. He lacks standout physical traits, most notably when it comes to movement, but he is instinctive and tough. Smart players that have produced the way he has against the highest level of competition find a way on the field at the next level.

*Some are leaving an EDGE position on him, which is fine I guess. But we saw him move to off-ball linebacker a lot in 2019 and he spent the majority of Senior Bowl week there too. Jennings is really smart and really physical, I could see NE being all over this kid draft weekend early day 3. 25+ TFL and 13+ sacks over the past two years coming from Alabama? Can play inside as a thumper, can provide quality pass rush on 3rd down? Sign me up.


10. Willie Gay Jr. / Mississippi State / 6’1 – 243

Grade: 73


Summary: Junior entry from Starkville, Mississippi. Two year starter but only started 11 games total over his career. Missed a significant amount of time in 2019 because of academics. Gay was a explosive rushing quarterback in high school and it is easy to notice just how fast he can play on the defensive side. He is an aggressive downhill force that will make the offense adjust to him. He is not someone that a ball carrier wants to meet in space, as the power Gay brings upon force when he has a head start is as physical as it gets. There will need to be extra screening in regard to his off field habits, but he is a potential game changer if everything checks out and he learns the game a bit more.

*If the Giants are looking to take a risk at LB on day 3, this is the guy to go after. I had glowing game notes on Gay Jr and the comparison of Devin Bush came up multiple times. Short but stout, plus length for his frame, top-shelf speed. There is no denying that NYG needs more juice, more speed at the second level. Gay Jr blew the combine up, he is in the same tier athletically speaking as Simmons. He is as violent a player as you will find. There are a couple character red flags, however, and he only has 11 career starts. If NYG wants to turn their defense around, they are going to have to take a couple chances. This would be taking a chance but I feel good about it in round 4 or 5.

11. Dante Olson / Montana / 6’2 – 237

Grade: 71


Summary: Fifth year senior from Medford, Oregon. Two year starter that certainly made the most of those two years. Set, and the re-set, the all time single season record for tackles in program history. A two time FCS All American and the recipient of the Big Sky Defensive Player of the Year Award. Buck Buchanon Award winner finalist in 2018 and 2019 respectively, given to the top defensive player of the year in FCS. Olson is the son of a coach with really good speed and a finisher’s mentality. He runs around like he’s on fire and with the demands of today’s linebacker in the pros, he could be a sneaky-good fit. He lacks some important agility-based movement skills but he can be molded in to a quality player in time. At the very least, he will be a stud-special teamer.

*Olson won’t impress anybody with his tools, but they are good enough and he has the combination of intelligence and toughness on the field to factor. He would be a reliable backup and quality special teamer. My question, in relation to the Giants, would center around how “multiple” he can be. I see a weak side / middle guy only. Every team has a linebacker like him, but I can see why some would rather go for someone faster. I saw him at Shrine and was impressed, I am keeping him near the top of this cluster of mid to late day 3 linebackers.

12. Shaquille Quarterman / Miami / 6’1 – 234

Grade: 71


Summary: Senior entry from Orange Park, Florida. Four year starter that finished All-ACC every season, including the 1st Team honor in both 2018 and 2019. Quarterman evolved in to the Alpha Male of the Miami defense over his final two years, producing at a high level against both the run and pass. He has the kind of intelligence and on-field IQ that every good linebacker possesses and he knows how to finish. While he is a bit of a throwback that may currently struggle to play in space against the passing game, he still has the potential and even likelihood to make an impact. He shows stiffness but if a scheme can hide that a bit, he will help a defense much more than hurt it. He will be in the league for a long time and likely start at some point.

*A lot of people were juiced up about this kid before and during his freshman season. I feel like he’s been at Miami for a decade. 52 starts, a ton of tackles, multiple schemes, and a true leader of the group. I got to speak with him down at St. Pete during Shrine week and came away really impressed. He won’t add a lot of athleticism to the group though, he isn’t that big, and he may be a 2-down guy. The physical upside isn’t good enough for me to use anything more than a 3rd day pick here.

13. Tanner Muse / Clemson / 6’2 – 227

Grade: 71


Summary: Fifth year senior entry from Belmont, North Carolina. Three year starter that earned 3rd Team All ACC honors in 2018, 1st Team in 2019. Also a 3rd Team All American as a senior. Muse looks too tight to stay at safety, as his hips and feet just don’t move well enough to be trusted in coverage against pro receivers. However he shows potential as a cover linebacker that can handle the running game from the weak side. The winner of the Special Teams Player of the Year Award at Clemson in 2016, Muse brings the kind of straight line speed and power-impact to make an impact in that department at the next level and his role on defense will need to be specific but he has proven to be a factor against the pass if he is protected.

*I have no issues with those that label Muse a late day 2 pick. He has some old school, blue collar in him but don’t look past the fact he is incredibly fast and explosive. Ohio State running back JK Dobbins out-ran Isaiah Simmons in space during the CFB playoffs, Muse caught him from behind. Then he went to the combine and ran a 4.41. Muse is too tight to play safety in my eyes, but he is more than physical enough for linebacker duty and his coverage for the position would be considered a plus. I have this mid to late day 3 grade here, but I’ll say this, his versatility, intelligence, and physical nature could be an exact fit for what NYG plans to do on defense. Look for this kid draft weekend.

14. Davvion Taylor / Colorado / 6’1 – 228

Grade: 70


Summary: Senior entry from Magnolia, Mississippi. Two year starter that spent two seasons in junior college prior to transferring to Colorado in 2018. Finished with Honorable Mention All Pac 12 honors as a senior. Also an accomplished sprinter for the Colorado track team. Taylor has as interesting a background as anyone in the class. Because of religious beliefs, he was not allowed to play in football games Fridays or Saturdays during high school until his senior year. Thus, he was under-recruited and simply did not bank much football experience. After two impressive seasons in junior college, Colorado scooped him up and put him in to the starting lineup 20 games over 2 years. Taylor had a hard time finding a permanent home in regard to position, but his speed was top shelf and he flashed playmaking ability from time to time. He is still very much considered a developmental player that is incredibly raw, but he has elite special teams potential and could mold in to a quality weak side, space-happy linebacker down the road.

*One of the more unique prospects in the class considering his background and tools. Many are putting this kid in to the day 2 tier because of his strength and speed. He is an excellent run and chase guy but I don’t see instincts or flow to the action. I thought he looked out of place at the Senior Bowl. While I do respect the upside here that stems from his frame and speed, he is a project.

15. Jacob Phillips / LSU / 6’3 – 229

Grade: 70


Summary: Senior entry from Nashville, Tennessee. Two year starter that finished second on the team in tackles in 2018, first in 2019. After sitting behind Devin White for two years, a future top 10 pick, Phillips took over the job in the middle of the Tigers defense and excelled. He was a 5-star recruit coming out of high school and flashed over his two seasons. The straight line speed, attractive frame, and sure tackling is sure to catch the eyes of defensive coaches that want to try and develop a player for a year or two. He shows weaknesses in coverage but he physical upside is there to warrant the idea he could improve enough in that area. He is a day three pick that has the upside of a starter, ideally in a scheme that can let him run around and chase.

*Phillips isn’t in the same tier as a some of these recent LSU linebackers, but I think he is a reliable bet to provide quality depth and special teams play. He plays smart, he works hard, he is very coachable. Don’t forget he was a 5-star recruit and even though one could argue he had an underwhelming career, he was an important piece these past two seasons. Not a good cover linebacker but he will be reliable against the run.

16. Mykal Walker / Fresno State: 70
17. Francis Bernard / Utah: 70
18. Evan Weaver / California: 70
19. Cam Brown / Penn State: 69
20. Jordan Mack / Virginia: 69
21. Khaleke Hudson / Michigan: 69
22. Justin Strnad / Wake Forest: 69
23. Michael Divinity / LSU: 69
24. Michael Pinckney / Miami: 68
25. Jordan Glasgow / Michigan: 68


NYG APPROACH

For the record, I could talk about the possible Simmons selection for an hour straight, it is fascinating. I won’t go too deep here, as we can discuss further in the comments, but I will echo what I stated earlier. NYG can certainly go for him at #4 and I won’t say a negative thing about it. But so much of his potential, even more so than other prospects, will be based on how the team would use him. Build the scheme around him, do not try to fit him in to a scheme. This coaching staff yelled from the top of the mountains that they want to be able to change their scheme week to week to exploit the opponent’s weaknesses. Simmons is quite literally the kind of player that can change week to week based on what the team needs, and he can do so at a high level. However, if they put him at ILB routinely, he will get crushed because his instincts are average at best and he plays high. If they put him at EDGE routinely, he will get crushed because he doesn’t have an array of rush moves and he doesn’t use his hands well in that situation. If they put him at safety routinely, he will get crushed because he is high hipped and doesn’t play more athletic than NFL receivers like he did in college.

As for the rest of the LB group, whether they draft Simmons or not, speed needs to be added. Connelly, Martinez, and Mayo can get the job done against the run but they are going to get exposed when true speed and coverage are needed. If you need to convert 3rd and 5, attack those guys and a good passing game will almost always come out on top especially on a team that lacks quality pass rushers. This draft’s LB group as a whole is a little thin after those top 7-8 guys. Because it is such a scheme-based position, NYG doesn’t have to rush here. They can be patient, wait for value (even if it is round 7), and add the athleticism there.
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RE: RE: RE: Don’t see what you’re seeing, at all  
Rudy5757 : 4/4/2020 8:34 am : link
In comment 14858841 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14858840 Rudy5757 said:


Quote:


In comment 14858779 aGiantGuy said:


Quote:


I’m just gonna tell you right now, the Ohio St game, is not the game to poke holes in. To say the least he had a great game. The 1st run he was playing man on a slot receiver, you are taught that you have no run responsibilities when you are playing man away from the box. The second run, he had his gap, if he starts playing other people’s gap responsibilities that would be more concerning to NFL teams.

Let’s take a step back here, there’s only 2 linebackers that I know of, to come out in the last 6 years that can double gap a tackle and still make that tackle on Dobbins, their names are Khalil Mack and Chase Young. And neither of them are even coming close to making his game winning interception playing deep half safety.

This is the type of prospect we’re talking about here, someone who will hold their own in a C gap and create takeaways as a deep half safety. If you can’t see the potential in that, then I don’t know what to say



Again I am not questioning the assignment. It's the effort. It's a championship game, he saw the RB and didn't give the effort to chase him down. He let his teammates do it. Conversely, our own Justin Tuck in a preseason game ran down a rb 30 yards down field. That's what I want at 4. Simmons will be good at times but he will not make the guys around him better. I want a better football player at 4 and less athlete. On a good football team he will be good. On a bad team like the Giants he won't be able to be the player we need. Remember he played on the best D in college. That's not the case here.

Pass at 4 for me but if we can drop and get a pick and Simmons that would be better.



So, he is good enough at #5 or #6 but not good enough at #4?


It's Simmons and a pick. You are offsetting the risk a little with the extra pick. He is a risky pick. Look at Sys writeup. No different than trading back and getting an OT.
AGiantGuy owns Rudy5757 on this thread..  
KingBlue : 4/4/2020 8:38 am : link
Rudy, you got owned. Maybe you should take a step back, listen and learn.
RE: Starting  
Klaatu : 4/4/2020 8:45 am : link
In comment 14858643 PaulN said:
Quote:
Out with 61-63 teams, then watching the LT years, then Strahan years, then Tuck, Pierre Paul. There is nothing I hate more then watching a shit defense, sorry, but defense for the Football Giants is a must, it is the Giants identity.


It was the Giants' identity. Now they're identified by Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley. Their choice, not mine. But having made their choice, they should do everything possible to make sure it's the right choice, instead of changing horses mid-stream, so to speak, and trying to resurrect the past.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Don’t see what you’re seeing, at all  
section125 : 4/4/2020 8:47 am : link
In comment 14858851 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:

Pass at 4 for me but if we can drop and get a pick and Simmons that would be better.



So, he is good enough at #5 or #6 but not good enough at #4?

It's Simmons and a pick. You are offsetting the risk a little with the extra pick. He is a risky pick. Look at Sys writeup. No different than trading back and getting an OT.


Well of course. You could say that about any pick in the top 8.
We all want a trade back to get another 2nd or 3rd rounder but still get the same guy they have targeted, be it Simmons or the best OT. But it then becomes tricky. If they swap with Carolina, and the Panthers take Tua or Herbert, what is to say Miami or LAC don't like the remaining QBs take Simmons and then Wirfs/Wills and then they miss on Simmons and their favored OT?
The only safe tradeback is with Miami, because we would then know they are taking a QB(it would be part of the trade) leaving the Giants the choice of Simmons or prefered OT. Probably only get a 3rd for one move, but a high 3rd. Even if LAC wants to move up and they take Tua at four, Miami may not want Herbert and then takes Simmons or the favored OT. Then the Giants get the leftover plus a 2nd(I'd only move for at least a 2nd).
The Simmons scouting report is odd for a guy who’s a can’t miss  
Tuckrule : 4/4/2020 8:48 am : link
“But one must know, he isn’t instinctive or stout against the run. He flashes power on the move but he won’t handle NFL linemen and blocking tight ends well. Put him in the wrong role, he is a day 2 kind of player.“

“ However, if they put him at ILB routinely, he will get crushed because his instincts are average at best and he plays high. If they put him at EDGE routinely, he will get crushed because he doesn’t have an array of rush moves and he doesn’t use his hands well in that situational on. If they put him at safety routinely, he will get crushed because he is high hipped and doesn’t play more athletic than NFL receivers like he did in college.“

Yet in the Q and A part you mention he excels vs the run and he’s very good In coverage. If you play high with his height and length that’s a massive problem. If he can’t routinely do certain things like playing edge, safety etc. well then to me he isn’t very good at one thing. Rarely do you ever take someone high because of versatility. I’m still trying to understand what he can do exceptionally well. If that’s cover a tight end then that isn’t worth a day 2 pick to me when he can’t hold up vs the run. When you say he can’t do things routinely your basically saying the athletes in the NFL is are different breed than the athlete he faced in college. What he did in college may very well not work. AkA the Taylor mays comparisons. He wasn’t very good at one thing either. He didn’t have the hips and speed to run with NFL wideouts which is what I see with Simmons and you agreed in your report. If you put him at safety ROUTINELY he will get beat he doesn’t have the speed. So he’s not even Jabril peppers in coverage? I didn’t see you, or any scout besides one, mention the wide hashes in college which is a massive part of why he had open space to the field side. Im curious why many don’t discuss this aspect of his game. He had many clean up sacks and a bunch came against Syracuse. He doesn’t have the mentality or physicality to play linebacker like a Murray who’s graded 2 points lower. He may be solid across the board but solid and versatile is great but that doesn’t scream top 5 pick to me. Too many caveates to say this guy Is a can’t miss prospect.

Sy I’m curious if you watched both the wofford game and the charlotte game. I’m sure you did. I just want to hear your take on those 2 run heavy inferior comp teams and how Simmons held up.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Don’t see what you’re seeing, at all  
LBH15 : 4/4/2020 9:04 am : link
In comment 14858860 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14858851 Rudy5757 said:


Quote:



Pass at 4 for me but if we can drop and get a pick and Simmons that would be better.



So, he is good enough at #5 or #6 but not good enough at #4?

It's Simmons and a pick. You are offsetting the risk a little with the extra pick. He is a risky pick. Look at Sys writeup. No different than trading back and getting an OT.



Well of course. You could say that about any pick in the top 8.
We all want a trade back to get another 2nd or 3rd rounder but still get the same guy they have targeted, be it Simmons or the best OT. But it then becomes tricky. If they swap with Carolina, and the Panthers take Tua or Herbert, what is to say Miami or LAC don't like the remaining QBs take Simmons and then Wirfs/Wills and then they miss on Simmons and their favored OT?
The only safe tradeback is with Miami, because we would then know they are taking a QB(it would be part of the trade) leaving the Giants the choice of Simmons or prefered OT. Probably only get a 3rd for one move, but a high 3rd. Even if LAC wants to move up and they take Tua at four, Miami may not want Herbert and then takes Simmons or the favored OT. Then the Giants get the leftover plus a 2nd(I'd only move for at least a 2nd).


Trading back and being guaranteed to still get the guy you originally wanted is a no-brainer and probably pretty rare. While that may be the ideal, it probably isn't the realistic objective.

I would think it is moreso the reasonable plan that a GM trades back and are still able to pick a guy in the same tier as before.

If it is so important to get the same guy you are targeting, then really you should just stay where you are and pick him.
RE: Simmons is a steal at #4. They rarely come along .  
Tuckrule : 4/4/2020 9:23 am : link
In comment 14858778 TMS said:
Quote:
In a spot you can draft them. Sideline to sideline LB who can cover and rush the passer as well. He is no brainer. Maybe prove more valuable than Young. Hard to get these guys unless you draft really early. Take them when you get the chance. DG knows this.


You described Murray not Simmons. Sy and many other like JonC and myself keep telling everyone he cannot play ILB. Sy repeatedly says he has to be moved. He can’t play a specific role. If you want a linebacker like you described that guy is Murray not Simmons.
RE: Graham and Fitzpatrick is also a valif concern  
Jon in NYC : 4/4/2020 9:30 am : link
In comment 14858482 JonC said:
Quote:
The player wanted out of that team in the worst way and indicated it was because of how he was being deployed.


This is massively concerning.
Tanner Muse  
Philu916 : 4/4/2020 9:42 am : link
Saw his description how Simmons was outran by Dobbins, but Taylor Muse showed the speed to catch him. Simmons was described as having amazing speed. Shouldn’t Muse be a first round pick by this regard?

RE: RE: Graham and Fitzpatrick is also a valif concern  
MeadowlandsMike : 4/4/2020 10:27 am : link
In comment 14858890 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 14858482 JonC said:


Quote:


The player wanted out of that team in the worst way and indicated it was because of how he was being deployed.



This is massively concerning.


Fitz didn't want to be deployed all over the place. He wanted a more focused role. Simmons looks like he thrives in that kind of role. Different players and preferences .
RE: RE: Simmons is a steal at #4. They rarely come along .  
MeadowlandsMike : 4/4/2020 10:32 am : link
In comment 14858880 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 14858778 TMS said:


Quote:


In a spot you can draft them. Sideline to sideline LB who can cover and rush the passer as well. He is no brainer. Maybe prove more valuable than Young. Hard to get these guys unless you draft really early. Take them when you get the chance. DG knows this.



You described Murray not Simmons. Sy and many other like JonC and myself keep telling everyone he cannot play ILB. Sy repeatedly says he has to be moved. He can’t play a specific role. If you want a linebacker like you described that guy is Murray not Simmons.


Simmons could be deployed somewhat Similar to what Graham had in mind for Fitzpatrick. We have the beef upfront also to keep the linebackers a little more clean ala Ravens with Siragusa and (Adams?) Up front. Not in comparison of level of talent but the concept.

If Graham is worth his salt he should be able to find plenty of effective ways to utilize his diverse strengths and not exposes his weaknesses in traffic excessively.
RE: RE: Simmons is a steal at #4. They rarely come along .  
allstarjim : 4/4/2020 11:38 am : link
In comment 14858880 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 14858778 TMS said:


Quote:


In a spot you can draft them. Sideline to sideline LB who can cover and rush the passer as well. He is no brainer. Maybe prove more valuable than Young. Hard to get these guys unless you draft really early. Take them when you get the chance. DG knows this.



You described Murray not Simmons. Sy and many other like JonC and myself keep telling everyone he cannot play ILB. Sy repeatedly says he has to be moved. He can’t play a specific role. If you want a linebacker like you described that guy is Murray not Simmons.


You guys are really stretching what Sy said to fit your own narrative.

Sy also gave him an 89 grade for a reason. Reminder that's pro bowl level player, one point shy of All-Pro, and a grade that is extremely high for a draft prospect. He said he's the player you scheme around (in a good way).

He said you don't put him strictly at ILB or strictly at Edge...because why would you? You aren't playing to his strengths. He's a guy you keep the offense guessing with, that's why.
If you want a true linebacker he isn’t that player  
Tuckrule : 4/4/2020 11:43 am : link
Give me the guy he compared to 2 hall of famers. I’ll take that guy over the guy who comes with an instructional manual how to use otherwise he’s a day 2 pick if used incorrectly.
RE: If you want a true linebacker he isn’t that player  
allstarjim : 4/4/2020 11:55 am : link
In comment 14859045 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
Give me the guy he compared to 2 hall of famers. I’ll take that guy over the guy who comes with an instructional manual how to use otherwise he’s a day 2 pick if used incorrectly.


You and others constantly want to put him in a box. He doesn't fit your boxes, and it's his strength, not a weakness.

I'm sure our coaching staff will be able to employ him correctly.

He's going to be a dominant force in the NFL.
RE: The Simmons scouting report is odd for a guy who’s a can’t miss  
Sy'56 : 4/4/2020 11:55 am : link
In comment 14858862 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
“But one must know, he isn’t instinctive or stout against the run. He flashes power on the move but he won’t handle NFL linemen and blocking tight ends well. Put him in the wrong role, he is a day 2 kind of player.“

“ However, if they put him at ILB routinely, he will get crushed because his instincts are average at best and he plays high. If they put him at EDGE routinely, he will get crushed because he doesn’t have an array of rush moves and he doesn’t use his hands well in that situational on. If they put him at safety routinely, he will get crushed because he is high hipped and doesn’t play more athletic than NFL receivers like he did in college.“

Yet in the Q and A part you mention he excels vs the run and he’s very good In coverage. If you play high with his height and length that’s a massive problem. If he can’t routinely do certain things like playing edge, safety etc. well then to me he isn’t very good at one thing. Rarely do you ever take someone high because of versatility. I’m still trying to understand what he can do exceptionally well. If that’s cover a tight end then that isn’t worth a day 2 pick to me when he can’t hold up vs the run. When you say he can’t do things routinely your basically saying the athletes in the NFL is are different breed than the athlete he faced in college. What he did in college may very well not work. AkA the Taylor mays comparisons. He wasn’t very good at one thing either. He didn’t have the hips and speed to run with NFL wideouts which is what I see with Simmons and you agreed in your report. If you put him at safety ROUTINELY he will get beat he doesn’t have the speed. So he’s not even Jabril peppers in coverage? I didn’t see you, or any scout besides one, mention the wide hashes in college which is a massive part of why he had open space to the field side. Im curious why many don’t discuss this aspect of his game. He had many clean up sacks and a bunch came against Syracuse. He doesn’t have the mentality or physicality to play linebacker like a Murray who’s graded 2 points lower. He may be solid across the board but solid and versatile is great but that doesn’t scream top 5 pick to me. Too many caveates to say this guy Is a can’t miss prospect.

Sy I’m curious if you watched both the wofford game and the charlotte game. I’m sure you did. I just want to hear your take on those 2 run heavy inferior comp teams and how Simmons held up.


Great post!

So to be clear - when I say Simmons wouldn't do well as a strict ILB, or as a strict EDGE, or as a strict S - by no means am I coming down on him.

This chess piece is the guy that gets moved based on the situation, the opponent, the situation. And he be can "good enough" at multiple roles. Guys that can play EDGE, ILB, OLB, S - they don't exist. Dont'a Hightower from NE is a really good ILB - average EDGE guy - average OLB - but the fact he can do all three is huge for that scheme.

Kyle Van Noy (last year on NE - this year on MIA) same thing. He isn't an ideal EDGE, but he can play well enough there in situations. He isn't an ideal ILB - but he can play well enough there in situations. He is a really good OLB.

Simmons best role is an OLB/SAM type, but he can make a difference in situations at ILB, EDGE, BUCK, S. Nobody on the current NYG defense can do half of that.

Again, it will be ALL ABOUT how he is used.
RE: Tanner Muse  
Sy'56 : 4/4/2020 11:56 am : link
In comment 14858898 Philu916 said:
Quote:
Saw his description how Simmons was outran by Dobbins, but Taylor Muse showed the speed to catch him. Simmons was described as having amazing speed. Shouldn’t Muse be a first round pick by this regard?


Because he is fast? Muse should be a first rounder?
Simmons Position  
gregori : 4/4/2020 12:02 pm : link
Not to make the sacrilege & compare Simmons to LT but I'm old enough to have watched every LT Giant game.
He was moved all over the line of scrimmage and it was actually comical to see the offense make LOS adjustments to where LT actually was.
That may happen again with Simmons.
Giants haven't had a player demanding that kind of attention in quite some time.
So utilizing Simmons in the 'versatile' role would not be unprecedented nor actual rocket science.
Thanks again Sy for answering my previous question.  
DonnieD89 : 4/4/2020 12:53 pm : link
I just got done listening to your podcast with Phil Crane and Dave-Te Thomas, which was insightful and enjoyable. I noticed that you did not list Zack Baun as a linebacker in your position, but you discussed him in pod cast. I am assuming that you have him in your edge rusher group. Do you think that the Giants could utilize him, actually in the middle linebacker position?
RE: RE: The Simmons scouting report is odd for a guy who’s a can’t miss  
Jay in Toronto : 4/4/2020 1:32 pm : link
In comment 14859063 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14858862 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


Simmons best role is an OLB/SAM type, but he can make a difference in situations at ILB, EDGE, BUCK, S. Nobody on the current NYG defense can do half of that.

Again, it will be ALL ABOUT how he is used.


It would seem that more and more it's a game of adjustments, and having a high-quality swiss army knife is something to value.

Sy, is there a position that Simmons excels at?
If Simmons is gone, I take Okudah and don't look back  
Jim in Forest Hills : 4/4/2020 1:39 pm : link
Okudah's as safe a player as there is in the draft imo.

The thought of Okudah/Bradberry/Baker/Whoever warms my heart.

I would be happy if we landed him. Actually prefer Okudah over Simmons.
Sy,  
Giant John : 4/4/2020 2:37 pm : link
I agree with your assessment. I also think the coaching staff is smart enough to use him properly. I think he is the pick. But we will see what Giants are thinking soon.
Good work.
RE: Thanks again Sy for answering my previous question.  
Sy'56 : 4/4/2020 2:46 pm : link
In comment 14859131 DonnieD89 said:
Quote:
I just got done listening to your podcast with Phil Crane and Dave-Te Thomas, which was insightful and enjoyable. I noticed that you did not list Zack Baun as a linebacker in your position, but you discussed him in pod cast. I am assuming that you have him in your edge rusher group. Do you think that the Giants could utilize him, actually in the middle linebacker position?


Baun will get a write up in my EDGE preview - hard to pick which spot he deserves to be in, so I went with where he played the majority snaps. I don't see him as a MIKE, no.
RE: RE: RE: The Simmons scouting report is odd for a guy who’s a can’t miss  
Sy'56 : 4/4/2020 2:47 pm : link
In comment 14859173 Jay in Toronto said:
Quote:
In comment 14859063 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


In comment 14858862 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


Simmons best role is an OLB/SAM type, but he can make a difference in situations at ILB, EDGE, BUCK, S. Nobody on the current NYG defense can do half of that.

Again, it will be ALL ABOUT how he is used.



It would seem that more and more it's a game of adjustments, and having a high-quality swiss army knife is something to value.

Sy, is there a position that Simmons excels at?


Strong Safety AND strong side OLB are his best spots.
RE: Simmons Position  
TMS : 4/4/2020 2:53 pm : link
In comment 14859076 gregori said:
Quote:
Not to make the sacrilege & compare Simmons to LT but I'm old enough to have watched every LT Giant game.
He was moved all over the line of scrimmage and it was actually comical to see the offense make LOS adjustments to where LT actually was.
That may happen again with Simmons.
Giants haven't had a player demanding that kind of attention in quite some time.
So utilizing Simmons in the 'versatile' role would not be unprecedented nor actual rocket science.
. Old enough as well, saw every game LT played in person or on the tube. After just one practice Parcells stated that LT was the best player on the team. Saw him get better and better. Offenses game planned around him, trying figure out how to keep him from hurting thier QB or ruin thier offensive plan. If he was not such a free spirit and wild guy off the field he may have been even better. If that was possible ? Early I saw the same thing from Butkus but nobody changed the game like LT. Good post.
RE: RE: If you want a true linebacker he isn’t that player  
WillVAB : 4/4/2020 4:10 pm : link
In comment 14859062 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14859045 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


Give me the guy he compared to 2 hall of famers. I’ll take that guy over the guy who comes with an instructional manual how to use otherwise he’s a day 2 pick if used incorrectly.



You and others constantly want to put him in a box. He doesn't fit your boxes, and it's his strength, not a weakness.

I'm sure our coaching staff will be able to employ him correctly.

He's going to be a dominant force in the NFL.


Just stop. You’re a lemming with no unique thoughts of your own. Remember how you said Barkley was the best player in the draft? All you do is regurgitate information and pass it off as if you’re some sort of authority. You don’t know shit about shit.

Here’s an idea — develop an eye for what matters and contribute something meaningful and novel instead of piggybacking off all the bullshit you read.
RE: Simmons Position  
uther99 : 4/4/2020 4:45 pm : link
In comment 14859076 gregori said:
Quote:
Not to make the sacrilege & compare Simmons to LT but I'm old enough to have watched every LT Giant game.
He was moved all over the line of scrimmage and it was actually comical to see the offense make LOS adjustments to where LT actually was.
That may happen again with Simmons.
Giants haven't had a player demanding that kind of attention in quite some time.
So utilizing Simmons in the 'versatile' role would not be unprecedented nor actual rocket science.


LT could beat NFL tackles. Simmons cannot, in my opinion. Most his sacks in 2019 were unblocked
Simmons Position  
gregori : 4/4/2020 4:54 pm : link
Yep, LT could do lots of things Simmons will never be able to do.
The only comparison I was making was versatility along the line of scrimmage forcing offenses to game plan for him.
Can't compare with all the amazing things LT could do.
Fair, even-handed take on Simmons from Sy.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/4/2020 5:00 pm : link
He articulates the reasons why I'm not 100% sold on Simmons. When I think of a (non-Edge) LB that I would draft with a top 5 pick, I see guys like Kuechly, Willis, or Jaylon Smith. Simmons isn't a guy I can put on the field whose talent will not possibly allow me to screw this up. He has to be utilized properly (even more so that your average player). Perhaps it's just faulty, close-minded thinking on my part. In theory, Simmons could be used the way Gregg Scumbag Williams used Jamal Adams last season. However, do we know that Patrick Graham can do what Gregg Williams does or what Sy says needs to be done in order to extract everything possible from Simmons' physical gifts? Of course not.
There are people here  
Dave on the UWS : 4/4/2020 7:54 pm : link
who just don’t understand Su’s evaluation. They can read it 50 times and not get it. You could leave Simmons in one spot and he would be a very good player but WHY WOULD YOU?? You move him around to drive the offense nuts, and you get the most out of him that way! That’s the point he is making. EVERY defense has a guy they want to make the play. The defense for SF several years ago, was designed for Willis and Bowman to make the plays. Judge and Graham would need to design the defense (and its many looks) for Simmons to make the play. Stars are supposed to make plays and that’s what you would be drafting him to be- a star to make plays, not an ILB to take on blocks.
Well said Dave  
aGiantGuy : 4/4/2020 8:02 pm : link
+1
I hope  
uther99 : 4/4/2020 8:27 pm : link
they don't draft Simmons, he beat up on some ACC trash. His game in the NFL is limited
Simmons and LT  
Jay in Toronto : 4/4/2020 8:48 pm : link
I am guilty of this comparison in some threads a while ago.

I don't see them as comparable in their skills -- just that LT was a paradigm shifting OLB and Simmons might be as well.
That's the point Jay  
Dave on the UWS : 4/4/2020 9:30 pm : link
he could be the next game changing player because of his unique gifts. If Detroit takes him, I'm good with their top choice of OL, but to pass on him and the chance he becomes that kind of guy is opposite to what DG says he looks for in a top 5 guy.
RE: Graham and Fitzpatrick is also a valif concern  
AcesUp : 4/4/2020 9:49 pm : link
In comment 14858482 JonC said:
Quote:
The player wanted out of that team in the worst way and indicated it was because of how he was being deployed.


I missed this but it's a good point. It did cross my mind how Minkah was shipped early in the season with Graham at DC, I just wasn't sure if it was a coaching thing or part of their tank. If that is the case, it's a strong argument against Simmons for this team at 4.
Yes I wonder  
XBRONX : 4/4/2020 9:55 pm : link
why Judge hired such an incompetent.
RE: RE: Graham and Fitzpatrick is also a valif concern  
Strahan91 : 4/4/2020 10:03 pm : link
In comment 14859536 AcesUp said:
Quote:
In comment 14858482 JonC said:


Quote:


The player wanted out of that team in the worst way and indicated it was because of how he was being deployed.



I missed this but it's a good point. It did cross my mind how Minkah was shipped early in the season with Graham at DC, I just wasn't sure if it was a coaching thing or part of their tank. If that is the case, it's a strong argument against Simmons for this team at 4.

Fitzpatrick wanted to play one position and they wanted him to play multiple positions. Simmons has no issue playing multiple positions. Also wouldn’t discount the fact that Miami was getting rid of all their talented players and seemingly tanking. Guys don’t want to be part of that which I’m sure contributed to his discontent.

It’s also pretty likely what happened was far more Flores’ doing than Graham’s anyways.
It's not a matter of competence  
AcesUp : 4/4/2020 10:03 pm : link
Fitzpatrick is another one of those positionless guys, he skews a little more towards the secondary side of things but there's overlapping variables there. If he wasn't happy with his role on a Graham defense, it's something to consider when trying to figure out how Simmons and Graham will mesh. That doesn't make Graham a good or bad DC, it's a conversation about fit.
RE: Want No Part of Simmons at 4  
uconngiant : 4/5/2020 12:52 am : link
In comment 14858303 WillVAB said:
Quote:
The coverage point is cute but he’ll get bulldozed in the run game in the NFCE. Really looking forward to Simmons on his back and Zeke doing the feed me bullshit.

Simmons is too risky at 4, especially for a GM on the hot seat. You don’t take “if you use him right” guys top 5. You take guys top 5 that you know exactly what they’re going to be for your franchise.


Thank God you are not making the pick then. He is the best defensive player in the draft and can be special as Darius Leonard is for the Colts.
Sy  
Tuckrule : 4/5/2020 6:45 am : link
Thanks for the response I see your point regarding scheme I just think his coverage skills are way overblown. Your examples are 2 linebackers who are versatile within the linebacker scheme. Van Noy isn’t the typical edge however he’s stout vs the run and is disciplined in maintainIng his gap responsibilities in pass defense. His pass rush is third on the list of what BB was looking for. A guy like Thaddeus moss, who people love to say he shut down is a sloth as far as a space creator. He will not beat many defensive ends 1 on 1. I just see a below average run supporter and a slightly worse cover guy than many here see when viewing Simmons.

Discussing Leonard and Simmons isn’t a great comp. Leonard is tough hard nosed linebacker mentality. He’s physical in the box and he can shed and run and chase. He does what Simmons fails to do within the box. Something that is very difficult to teach. Simmons to me is a sure fire risk. Not in the sense he’ll flop flat on his face but if your selecting 4th overall you need to come away with a stud. These types of backers are not taken in the top 5. If he’s average or above average at all these different things and allows versatility you can take a chance and try and get that player later. At 4 you need a rock. Not a cover guy, not a hybrid player. A rock who’s a game changer. He’s a guy that doesn’t dictate what an offense will do like a Lawrence Taylor. You see Simmons in the box run at him. You see him deep attack his zone. He wants to spy Lamar vs the ravens he’ll get destroyed on their designed runs. We play in the nfc East. Teams run the football. Well take Simmons after the skins add another elite pass rusher to their arsenal. I just don’t see it but I’m in the minority. Straight line speed is very different than adjusting in the nfl stop and starting. I have not seen start and stop ability from Simmons. I just see a straight line guy. Within the giants defense he very much will be a Jabril peppers type. Plays in the box, cover the tight end, play some deep safety in certain looks etc.

Rather take a gamble on dugger, Chinn or gaither if your looking for this type of athlete on your defense.
RE: There are people here  
Tuckrule : 4/5/2020 6:53 am : link
In comment 14859460 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
who just don’t understand Su’s evaluation. They can read it 50 times and not get it. You could leave Simmons in one spot and he would be a very good player but WHY WOULD YOU?? You move him around to drive the offense nuts, and you get the most out of him that way! That’s the point he is making. EVERY defense has a guy they want to make the play. The defense for SF several years ago, was designed for Willis and Bowman to make the plays. Judge and Graham would need to design the defense (and its many looks) for Simmons to make the play. Stars are supposed to make plays and that’s what you would be drafting him to be- a star to make plays, not an ILB to take on blocks.


Your not getting it. Simmons isn’t a threat attacking the QB or playing in the box. He will make his Money playing safety in the nfl. No coordinator will stay up nights worried about Simmons. He isn’t Ed Reed back there and he isn’t Sean Taylor. He’s not Lawrence Taylor. He’s not Troy Polamalu. Nobody is losing sleep over Simmons. Bowman and Willis, oh you want guys like that his name is Kenneth Murray! was compared to Patrick Willis by Sy. Stop crediting Simmons with things he cannot do. He isn’t that type of guy you put at linebacker and have him make plays. He needs much more help than that. Again the wide hashes is a huge thing nobody has mentioned. I never see anyone discuss it. It’s a huge part of what made Simmons so good. He had allllllll that space to work with to avoid blocker(not that he’s soft that’s his game) in the nfl running around blockers is a much tougher task when your playing against grown ass men and not boys.
RE: Sy  
Sy'56 : 4/5/2020 6:54 am : link
In comment 14859620 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
Thanks for the response I see your point regarding scheme I just think his coverage skills are way overblown. Your examples are 2 linebackers who are versatile within the linebacker scheme. Van Noy isn’t the typical edge however he’s stout vs the run and is disciplined in maintainIng his gap responsibilities in pass defense. His pass rush is third on the list of what BB was looking for. A guy like Thaddeus moss, who people love to say he shut down is a sloth as far as a space creator. He will not beat many defensive ends 1 on 1. I just see a below average run supporter and a slightly worse cover guy than many here see when viewing Simmons.

Discussing Leonard and Simmons isn’t a great comp. Leonard is tough hard nosed linebacker mentality. He’s physical in the box and he can shed and run and chase. He does what Simmons fails to do within the box. Something that is very difficult to teach. Simmons to me is a sure fire risk. Not in the sense he’ll flop flat on his face but if your selecting 4th overall you need to come away with a stud. These types of backers are not taken in the top 5. If he’s average or above average at all these different things and allows versatility you can take a chance and try and get that player later. At 4 you need a rock. Not a cover guy, not a hybrid player. A rock who’s a game changer. He’s a guy that doesn’t dictate what an offense will do like a Lawrence Taylor. You see Simmons in the box run at him. You see him deep attack his zone. He wants to spy Lamar vs the ravens he’ll get destroyed on their designed runs. We play in the nfc East. Teams run the football. Well take Simmons after the skins add another elite pass rusher to their arsenal. I just don’t see it but I’m in the minority. Straight line speed is very different than adjusting in the nfl stop and starting. I have not seen start and stop ability from Simmons. I just see a straight line guy. Within the giants defense he very much will be a Jabril peppers type. Plays in the box, cover the tight end, play some deep safety in certain looks etc.

Rather take a gamble on dugger, Chinn or gaither if your looking for this type of athlete on your defense.


Completely respect the approach and opinion you have. Very well thought out.

You aren't alone.
Sy  
Tuckrule : 4/5/2020 7:33 am : link
Thank you and I truly respect your opinion. If the giants do take Simmons I’ll have to force myself to buy in haha
Tuckrule  
XBRONX : 4/5/2020 7:45 am : link
You believe Simmons is a below average cover guy? Wow
RE: Tuckrule  
Tuckrule : 4/5/2020 8:03 am : link
In comment 14859645 XBRONX said:
Quote:
You believe Simmons is a below average cover guy? Wow


Yes he is. Ultimately he’s a safety in the nfl. Compared to nfl caliber safeties he will be considered below average. I see the same stiffness in the lower body and upright play that I saw with mays who was also a can’t miss freak of nature. Name a tight end he went up against this season who will be an nfl starting tight end. Until you see Him against nfl comp you can project all you want. The athletes get better, faster and stronger at this level. The gap between his athletic ability and the guys he’ll face shrinks by ten fold. We shall see. In my opinion he’s a completely overblown and overhyped prospect. Look where similar guys were taken in previous drafts. Will he have a solid career? Possibly, yes. will he ever be worth the 4th overall pick? Not that I can see. If we were selecting mid round and Murray is off the board would I consider him? Possibly. At 4 no chance.
Tuckrule  
XBRONX : 4/5/2020 8:07 am : link
I love what I have seen on Murray. Is he worth the fourth pick?
RE: Tuckrule  
Tuckrule : 4/5/2020 8:16 am : link
In comment 14859654 XBRONX said:
Quote:
I love what I have seen on Murray. Is he worth the fourth pick?


That’s a great question. For us I would say he is not. Overall draft board he has to be in the top 10 he’s that elite. Our needs scream offensive tackle. We can’t hide from that. We need to shore up this line. Garrett wants a few things. A dominant physical offensive line. A big time back. Blocking tight ends and a true big possession WR. It seems that we got him most of what he needs to succeed except for the tackle and potentially that possession guy. Murray is extremely tempting even at 4 but even I know that would be a reach based off need/value. Talent wise he’s worthy of the 4th overall pick. Need and value have to align and it pains me to say it with Murray the need isn’t there anymore with the signing of Blake. Although, Blake next to Murray would be a dynamic duo.
Murray  
Mike in NY : 4/5/2020 8:27 am : link
I love him coming forward, but I am not sure about his fluidity going backwards. He strikes me more as a 4-3 MIKE and a similar player to Blake Martinez.
RE: Murray  
Tuckrule : 4/5/2020 8:29 am : link
In comment 14859666 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
I love him coming forward, but I am not sure about his fluidity going backwards. He strikes me more as a 4-3 MIKE and a similar player to Blake Martinez.


Coming downhill he’s the best in the class. His blitzing ability is off the charts. His coverage isn’t great but 1v1 against a back or tight end it’s not a problem. He can blanket those guys. It’s zone coverage in space is the knock on him if there is one. Still, to me, he’s an above average coverage linebacker. He can thrive as a mike in a 4-3 or ILB in a 3-4 which to me may be his best position.
RE: Sy  
Rudy5757 : 4/5/2020 9:09 am : link
In comment 14859620 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
Thanks for the response I see your point regarding scheme I just think his coverage skills are way overblown. Your examples are 2 linebackers who are versatile within the linebacker scheme. Van Noy isn’t the typical edge however he’s stout vs the run and is disciplined in maintainIng his gap responsibilities in pass defense. His pass rush is third on the list of what BB was looking for. A guy like Thaddeus moss, who people love to say he shut down is a sloth as far as a space creator. He will not beat many defensive ends 1 on 1. I just see a below average run supporter and a slightly worse cover guy than many here see when viewing Simmons.

Discussing Leonard and Simmons isn’t a great comp. Leonard is tough hard nosed linebacker mentality. He’s physical in the box and he can shed and run and chase. He does what Simmons fails to do within the box. Something that is very difficult to teach. Simmons to me is a sure fire risk. Not in the sense he’ll flop flat on his face but if your selecting 4th overall you need to come away with a stud. These types of backers are not taken in the top 5. If he’s average or above average at all these different things and allows versatility you can take a chance and try and get that player later. At 4 you need a rock. Not a cover guy, not a hybrid player. A rock who’s a game changer. He’s a guy that doesn’t dictate what an offense will do like a Lawrence Taylor. You see Simmons in the box run at him. You see him deep attack his zone. He wants to spy Lamar vs the ravens he’ll get destroyed on their designed runs. We play in the nfc East. Teams run the football. Well take Simmons after the skins add another elite pass rusher to their arsenal. I just don’t see it but I’m in the minority. Straight line speed is very different than adjusting in the nfl stop and starting. I have not seen start and stop ability from Simmons. I just see a straight line guy. Within the giants defense he very much will be a Jabril peppers type. Plays in the box, cover the tight end, play some deep safety in certain looks etc.

Rather take a gamble on dugger, Chinn or gaither if your looking for this type of athlete on your defense.


Great post!
If you view Simmons  
Jon in NYC : 4/5/2020 10:55 am : link
as a safety, I agree, he isn't worth 4 overall.

But in a base 3-4 he as Sy mentioned is probably a SAM and in a nickel he can play next to Blake. I think people are getting too hung up with the idea that he'll be one of the two ILBs in the base formation but he's literally never played that role before and it's hard to imagine that's how he'd be deployed in the NFL.

Unless you're going to go get an elite pass rusher or a lockdown corner, there are few defenders that can impact a game like a true three down LB who never has to come off the field.
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