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What does Wirfs have that Becton doesn't?

BestFeature : 4/3/2020 3:45 pm
I keep reading about the high potential of Becton and some people think he can become an all-time great if everything falls into place. But right now he's raw. Sounds like Wirfs is also a great athlete that's raw, but I never hear about his upside being where Becton's is. Plus most think he's more of a guard. So why do some people prefer Wirfs over Becton?
He's a next level physical specimen  
Torrag : 4/3/2020 3:47 pm : link
Off the charts size/strength/AA combination. A level up even from a very large athletic guy like Wirfs. He is literally a freak of nature with his size and functional strength.
RE: He's a next level physical specimen  
BestFeature : 4/3/2020 3:51 pm : link
In comment 14858451 Torrag said:
Quote:
Off the charts size/strength/AA combination. A level up even from a very large athletic guy like Wirfs. He is literally a freak of nature with his size and functional strength.


But that's what I'm asking, if both are projects and Becton can more likely play LT AND he's more athletic why are some people higher on Wirfs?
RE: He's a next level physical specimen  
BMac : 4/3/2020 3:54 pm : link
In comment 14858451 Torrag said:
Quote:
Off the charts size/strength/AA combination. A level up even from a very large athletic guy like Wirfs. He is literally a freak of nature with his size and functional strength.


ALL pro football players are freaks of nature.
Wirfs is more advanced than Becton with his techniques  
Torrag : 4/3/2020 3:55 pm : link
Becton is a raw manchild.

That said I'd draft Wills before either. I'd give up a little size for the best technician that can anchor, has legit power and likes to finish guys off.
"ALL pro football players are freaks of nature."  
Torrag : 4/3/2020 3:57 pm : link
Please not all men are created equal. Becton has a legit 45 pounds on Wirfs and Thomas. That's next level stuff. Few players in the last ten years have what Becton does physically.
Wirfs has a ton more production (and in a system known  
gidiefor : Mod : 4/3/2020 3:58 pm : link
for developing Offensive lineman) than Becton. He's also much more intelligent. Wirfs has noticeably developed his skill set as a lineman. Becton is a much higher risk to take as there is less to evaluate and he needs a ton of development.
RE: Wirfs is more advanced than Becton with his techniques  
BestFeature : 4/3/2020 3:58 pm : link
In comment 14858472 Torrag said:
Quote:
Becton is a raw manchild.

That said I'd draft Wills before either. I'd give up a little size for the best technician that can anchor, has legit power and likes to finish guys off.


Thanks!
This is the issue with either of these guys at 4, 5, 6  
BillT : 4/3/2020 3:59 pm : link
There is no guarantee that they will really ever be ready. Now, if the Giants are reasonably sure they can be coached up then fine. They both are great physical talents. On the other hand, Wills is ready now.
Wirfs played in a blocking scheme  
Strahan91 : 4/3/2020 4:00 pm : link
more similar to those in the NFL. He’s also more patient than Becton and his footwork is excellent. His technique may need some work but it’s not nearly as raw as Becton’s. You can probably plug Wirfs in at RT week 1 and at least he’ll be competent and an improvement over say a Cameron Fleming. Becton may not be as he’s quite raw. He has little experience in traditional pass sets so you’re projecting how he’ll fair more so than with Wirfs (and likely will be a learning curve). He’s also very, very large which might be a good thing but it’s a risk to consider as far as gaining any weight and the potential for what it would do to his quickness.
also should note,  
Strahan91 : 4/3/2020 4:01 pm : link
I'm merely answering your question on what Wirfs has that Becton doesn't. The opposite case can also be made.
RE: He's a next level physical specimen  
Beer Man : 4/3/2020 4:04 pm : link
In comment 14858451 Torrag said:
Quote:
Off the charts size/strength/AA combination. A level up even from a very large athletic guy like Wirfs. He is literally a freak of nature with his size and functional strength.
But Erik Flowers was big strong guy as well. By what I have read, Wirfs is much more athletic OT, who is very fluid in his movement.
RE:  
allstarjim : 4/3/2020 4:04 pm : link
In comment 14858476 Torrag said:
Quote:
Please not all men are created equal. Becton has a legit 45 pounds on Wirfs and Thomas. That's next level stuff. Few players in the last ten years have what Becton does physically.


Agreed. If I were to order them today, it would be

#1 - Wills
#2 - Andrew Thomas
#3 - Wirfs
#4 - Becton

And I don't believe Becton is a top 15 player, and not convinced he's the #4 OT in this draft.

I understand he's a massive human, massively strong...but his technique sucks and he has a way to go before becoming something in the NFL.

Physical specimens don't necessarily mean good football players.

Finally, the difference between Wills and Wirfs, to me...is that Wills processes information faster, and he mirrors better than any other lineman in this class. Wirfs doesn't mirror / change direction quite as well as Wills.

And for the same reason I have Thomas ahead of Wirfs as well.
Year after year people heavily overvalue  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/3/2020 4:08 pm : link
Baseline strength for linemen.

Wreck Flowers and Mitch Petrus were two freakishly strong prospects. Where are they now?

Strength is nothing without technique and ability and desire to learn technique.
allstar I keep reshuffling the order after Wills #1  
Torrag : 4/3/2020 4:08 pm : link
I'm hoping they just cut out the nonsense and draft him.

But there are other worthy prospects so we'll see who they land on. It would be an easy decision for me though.
A healthy back  
Sy'56 : 4/3/2020 4:19 pm : link
.
RE: RE:  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 4/3/2020 4:22 pm : link
In comment 14858495 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14858476 Torrag said:


Quote:


Please not all men are created equal. Becton has a legit 45 pounds on Wirfs and Thomas. That's next level stuff. Few players in the last ten years have what Becton does physically.



Agreed. If I were to order them today, it would be

#1 - Wills
#2 - Andrew Thomas
#3 - Wirfs
#4 - Becton

And I don't believe Becton is a top 15 player, and not convinced he's the #4 OT in this draft.

I understand he's a massive human, massively strong...but his technique sucks and he has a way to go before becoming something in the NFL.

Physical specimens don't necessarily mean good football players.

Finally, the difference between Wills and Wirfs, to me...is that Wills processes information faster, and he mirrors better than any other lineman in this class. Wirfs doesn't mirror / change direction quite as well as Wills.

And for the same reason I have Thomas ahead of Wirfs as well.

Wills is able to shuffle back and use his hands and positioning to send an ER to their knees, what you want to see out of your tackle.

This is what you want your tackle to look like on a pass play.

Becton has a back issue?  
Torrag : 4/3/2020 4:22 pm : link
Is that a new development? At his size that would be a serious concern.
Ah...  
RAIN : 4/3/2020 4:23 pm : link
Nice one Sy. So Becton has some medical flags?

I’m curious to know how Becton interviewed. By all accounts Whirfs is a model Human. Heard rumblings about Becton’s attitude but nothing confirmed or trust-worthy.
And Sy remains All-Pro at  
CT Charlie : 4/3/2020 4:24 pm : link
comment value per word.

RE: Wirfs is more advanced than Becton with his techniques  
Dave : 4/3/2020 4:25 pm : link
In comment 14858472 Torrag said:
Quote:
Becton is a raw manchild.

That said I'd draft Wills before either. I'd give up a little size for the best technician that can anchor, has legit power and likes to finish guys off.

+1
RE: RE:  
Biteymax22 : 4/3/2020 4:27 pm : link
In comment 14858495 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14858476 Torrag said:


Quote:


Please not all men are created equal. Becton has a legit 45 pounds on Wirfs and Thomas. That's next level stuff. Few players in the last ten years have what Becton does physically.



Agreed. If I were to order them today, it would be

#1 - Wills
#2 - Andrew Thomas
#3 - Wirfs
#4 - Becton

And I don't believe Becton is a top 15 player, and not convinced he's the #4 OT in this draft.

I understand he's a massive human, massively strong...but his technique sucks and he has a way to go before becoming something in the NFL.

Physical specimens don't necessarily mean good football players.

Finally, the difference between Wills and Wirfs, to me...is that Wills processes information faster, and he mirrors better than any other lineman in this class. Wirfs doesn't mirror / change direction quite as well as Wills.

And for the same reason I have Thomas ahead of Wirfs as well.


I'm going to say this about Wills and why I agree with you about him in the top spot: It looks easy for him out there. Not the case for the other 3.
there is a lot more projection  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 4/3/2020 4:50 pm : link
and therefor risk with Becton.
I don't think Wirfs is nearly as raw  
AcesUp : 4/3/2020 4:52 pm : link
As some think he is. He's plug and play at RT.
'Wirfs...He's plug and play at RT."  
Torrag : 4/3/2020 4:59 pm : link
I think that's understood. The question is with what level of growing pains and are the technique problems short term or do they limit his long term ability to exploit his physical gifts at the OT position.

The technical issues are real. As far as the rest goes no one knows the answer, it's all projection.
I posted this earlier  
Koffman : 4/3/2020 5:03 pm : link
Wirfs while possibly the best athlete at the position in this draft ,also has some things he needs to work on. He plays with a "Soft Shoulder" and his angles coming out of his stance need to improve. He could probably be coached up some at the next level and be an All Pro if he fixes this, but speed guys around the edge will take advantage of this in the NFL. When his technique is solid he is much better, but when it is off, it is way off, check out the Michigan and Minnesota games.

Wills has the technique to play OT in the NFL right now. He picks up stunts and pressure very well, feels the rush, and has great awareness, and sets great angles.You can tell Wills studies film, he seems to know the ends rush habits and comes prepared for them. Although Wills could be a LT he is probably better suited for RT.

Becton great athlete, great size, and moves pretty well. Sustains blocks well during runs and can absolutely pancake guys due to his massive size. Does have some fixable issues during pass protection including hand placement, and at times gets too wide. But may have the biggest upside potential of any of the OL in the draft.

Thomas is a guy that isnt mentioned as much on the boards, but he may be the most solid technique player at the LT position in the draft. Run and pass blocking are both great, but he, like Wirfs, have some coachable issues like bending at the waist and reaching for defenders.

So, I guess it depends a lot on what the Giants are looking for with the 4th pick. Any of the four will most likely be starters at their positions for the next 10-years and play at a high level, just some will have more growing pains than others, and the transition from RT to LT may not work as well asthought.
Wirfs offers Gettleman the best of both worlds...  
Capt. Don : 4/3/2020 5:11 pm : link
He has the perceived high ceiling of Becton with his outrageous AA.

He also has the Iowa offensive lineman stamp of approval that may also mean the limited risk that Wills offers.

For better or worse, Wirfs is my prediction.
Torrag  
AcesUp : 4/3/2020 5:12 pm : link
It wasn't in reference to you or anybody in particular really. Maybe a little towards the OP or a general sentiment I've seen from some posters on the board that Wirfs is some super raw workout warrior. That's not the case. He was a stud college lineman that tested through the roof. I agree that he needs some refinement in his technique and there might be a projection involved at LT.

Going back to the OP and echoing much of the replies on this thread, his floor is a lot higher than Becton's. That's even before getting into any potential back issues. IMO Becton represents an unnecessary risk at 4 when you have Wirfs, Wills and Thomas available.
RE: RE:  
Festina Lente : 4/3/2020 5:31 pm : link
In comment 14858495 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14858476 Torrag said:


Quote:


Please not all men are created equal. Becton has a legit 45 pounds on Wirfs and Thomas. That's next level stuff. Few players in the last ten years have what Becton does physically.



Agreed. If I were to order them today, it would be

#1 - Wills
#2 - Andrew Thomas
#3 - Wirfs
#4 - Becton

And I don't believe Becton is a top 15 player, and not convinced he's the #4 OT in this draft.

I understand he's a massive human, massively strong...but his technique sucks and he has a way to go before becoming something in the NFL.

Physical specimens don't necessarily mean good football players.

Finally, the difference between Wills and Wirfs, to me...is that Wills processes information faster, and he mirrors better than any other lineman in this class. Wirfs doesn't mirror / change direction quite as well as Wills.

And for the same reason I have Thomas ahead of Wirfs as well.


It means very litte, but I like your thinking and ranking and I would have to agree. I don't think a first round OL is something you can afford to miss on and this is the wisest and safest ranking to me.
Becton isn't raw  
BigBlueCane : 4/3/2020 6:13 pm : link
like people thinking he's clueless or new to the position.

he's raw compared to Wirf and Wills b/c his potential was nowhere near maxed out in college, compared to those two. He's just starting to scratch his potential.

Now the knock about his back that Sy decided to drop on everyone will everybody freaking out about it for the next week.
Not gonna speak on Becton, but  
aGiantGuy : 4/3/2020 6:18 pm : link
To me the difference between Wirfs and Wills is a matter of preference. With Wirfs I see a Trent Williams clone that can road grade with the best of them. Wills has the technique that people will fall in love with and reminds me a little of Ryan Ramczyck but I’m scared of him facing an actual speed rusher with plus athleticism like Clowney or Mack.

I know I’m in the minority, but if I had to choose one to end up at guard, it would be Wills, his style of play, to me, screams Guard.
RE: I posted this earlier  
MeadowlandsMike : 4/3/2020 6:32 pm : link
In comment 14858559 Koffman said:
Quote:
Wirfs while possibly the best athlete at the position in this draft ,also has some things he needs to work on. He plays with a "Soft Shoulder" and his angles coming out of his stance need to improve. He could probably be coached up some at the next level and be an All Pro if he fixes this, but speed guys around the edge will take advantage of this in the NFL. When his technique is solid he is much better, but when it is off, it is way off, check out the Michigan and Minnesota games.

Wills has the technique to play OT in the NFL right now. He picks up stunts and pressure very well, feels the rush, and has great awareness, and sets great angles.You can tell Wills studies film, he seems to know the ends rush habits and comes prepared for them. Although Wills could be a LT he is probably better suited for RT.

Becton great athlete, great size, and moves pretty well. Sustains blocks well during runs and can absolutely pancake guys due to his massive size. Does have some fixable issues during pass protection including hand placement, and at times gets too wide. But may have the biggest upside potential of any of the OL in the draft.

Thomas is a guy that isnt mentioned as much on the boards, but he may be the most solid technique player at the LT position in the draft. Run and pass blocking are both great, but he, like Wirfs, have some coachable issues like bending at the waist and reaching for defenders.

So, I guess it depends a lot on what the Giants are looking for with the 4th pick. Any of the four will most likely be starters at their positions for the next 10-years and play at a high level, just some will have more growing pains than others, and the transition from RT to LT may not work as well asthought.


One of the better takes I've seen on all 4. Thomas and Wirfs have some stiffness to their game in pass pro which concerns me the most about them over Becton and Wills. Wills is ready to start day 1. Wills has point Gaurd characteristics that translate amazingly well: vision, anticipation, awareness, great footwork. Becton has had subpar coaching but the upside is massive. That size ,speed combination is ridiculous.

Wirfs for all that athleticism/strength combo it doesnt fully translate in pass pro where he looks tight and coiled as Cosell likes to say. This doesn't guarantee he busts but he may be better suited for OG if that doesn't improve.
RE: Wirfs offers Gettleman the best of both worlds...  
MeadowlandsMike : 4/3/2020 6:35 pm : link
In comment 14858564 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
He has the perceived high ceiling of Becton with his outrageous AA.

He also has the Iowa offensive lineman stamp of approval that may also mean the limited risk that Wills offers.

For better or worse, Wirfs is my prediction.


He is a Hog Molly. I can see why DG would want him over the others but I think he is overlooking his tightness in pass pro thinking it can be worked out or taught. Some guys are just not natural in pass pro no matter how athletic.
People around here really undervalue  
Carl in CT : 4/3/2020 6:54 pm : link
The mental part of the game. As defenses have changed, OL have to be more than big and athletic. They have to be able to adapt to those defenses to pick up the various blitz packages. One mistake could end a drive, game, or season if the QB gets hurt. The big boy from Louisville has a problem with this part of the game. Man on man he might be the best in the draft. There are better complete OL in this draft.
Quality coaching -  
PatersonPlank : 4/3/2020 7:11 pm : link
Iowa routinely pumps out the best OL players, these guys are always ready for the NFL
Becton doesn't have any problems  
BigBlueCane : 4/3/2020 8:02 pm : link
upstairs, per Peppers.

taking Becton  
ryanmkeane : 4/3/2020 8:10 pm : link
over Wirfs and Wills would be a massive risk, IMO
Maybe per Peppers  
Carl in CT : 4/3/2020 8:36 pm : link
But to me he does. Trust
RE: RE:  
Tuckrule : 4/3/2020 8:45 pm : link
In comment 14858495 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14858476 Torrag said:


Quote:


Please not all men are created equal. Becton has a legit 45 pounds on Wirfs and Thomas. That's next level stuff. Few players in the last ten years have what Becton does physically.



Agreed. If I were to order them today, it would be

#1 - Wills
#2 - Andrew Thomas
#3 - Wirfs
#4 - Becton

And I don't believe Becton is a top 15 player, and not convinced he's the #4 OT in this draft.

I understand he's a massive human, massively strong...but his technique sucks and he has a way to go before becoming something in the NFL.

Physical specimens don't necessarily mean good football players.

Finally, the difference between Wills and Wirfs, to me...is that Wills processes information faster, and he mirrors better than any other lineman in this class. Wirfs doesn't mirror / change direction quite as well as Wills.

And for the same reason I have Thomas ahead of Wirfs as well.


Excellent post. I have the same exact order and I want Wills at 4 if we stay put.
Wirfs scare me  
DRich1980 : 4/3/2020 8:55 pm : link
I think Thomas is the most ready Tackle and Becton will be the best one in the next 2 years. I believe Wirfs and Wills are Guards
why trust you  
BigBlueCane : 4/3/2020 10:13 pm : link
Carl? Because Dave said so?
Who is Peppers?  
yatqb : 4/3/2020 10:33 pm : link
.
"Iowa routinely pumps out the best OL players"  
Torrag : 4/3/2020 11:13 pm : link
Who are these elite offensive tackles out of Iowa? Bulaga is the best of them and he was never among the games best. Reiff has been a disappointment. I can't think of another...because there are none.

Scherff and Gallery couldn't hack it. Had to move inside.

That's it. Talk about false narrative.
Torrag- which of these OTs have gotten  
LBH15 : 4/3/2020 11:29 pm : link
the best marks on their footwork and overall pass protection?

That would be my differentiator in choosing.
It's Iowa, not Alabama  
AcesUp : 4/3/2020 11:33 pm : link
That's a hell of a pedigree for a team that is primarily recruiting regional 3* guys. Buluga was a stud at one point, he's still solid w and got a 10m/yr deal at 30+ w/an injury history. Scherff hacked it, the Skins just never tried him outside. Reif was a solid tackle at one point. Marshall Yanda was a monster. That's pretty much all of the highly drafted guys since 2004. The only "bust" in the Ferentz era is Gallery and even he ended up being a pretty good guard.

Ferentz and Iowa OL just tend to work out. It's a matter of coaching and scheme, they run a pro style so you're not projecting out as much as the other 95% of college programs that are running a spread. There's an element of security with Iowa OL that shouldn't be ignored.

Wirfs has some work to do to clean up pass pro technique,  
Section331 : 4/4/2020 1:21 am : link
Becton has a lot more. He’s raw, Wirfs is more of a finished product. Both are superb athletes, one is as big as an 18 wheeler, the other a small mountain.

Right now, Wirfs’ floor appears to be a very good OG, his ceiling a very good LT. Becton is going to bust if he can’t play OT.
"OT...the best marks on their footwork and overall pass protection?"  
Torrag : 4/4/2020 2:24 am : link
Cosell went on for about five minutes on how Wills has the best technique and footwork. Also very calm and on the rare occasion a guy gets an angle he recovers very well and shuts the door. I agree with him.

I get that people want the gargantuan freak, 6'14" and 410 pounds that ran 4.2 and blocked godzilla on steroids...but really you have to be big enough, long enough, strong enough, smart enough and flat out good enough.

Wills is the best in this class. If someone drafts an OT before him I think they'll be getting a good player. They won't be getting the best player.
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