In hindsight, would we still have fired Pat Shurmur?

That we have 2 recently former head coaches on our staff. I think that more than makes up for Shurmer

that even with the setbacks facing him, Judge should be able to meet or exceed the number of wins we would have gotten with another year under Shurmur.

This is not a huge vote of confidence for Judge--just a recognition that Shurmur was very, very bad as a head coach.

Really?

have too much time on your hands to think up topics like this.

I will counter - why in heaven's name would the Giants keep Shurmur after the past two years? What makes you think that Judge could be any worse than Shurmur?

In comment 14858742 montanagiant said:

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That we have 2 recently former head coaches on our staff. I think that more than makes up for Shurmer

Definitely helps! True.

In comment 14858744 robbieballs2003 said:

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Really?

I think it's a legitimate question. Obviously no one wanted Shurmur gone more than me and I'm happy he was gone, but I do wonder if we would've done this knowing what we know now.

In comment 14858746 section125 said:

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have too much time on your hands to think up topics like this. I will counter - why in heaven's name would the Giants keep Shurmur after the past two years? What makes you think that Judge could be any worse than Shurmur?

Well, the former is certainly true :P No need to speculate. I do have too much time on my hands these days. Haha

In comment 14858749 Anakim said:

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In comment 14858744 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: Really? I think it's a legitimate question. Obviously no one wanted Shurmur gone more than me and I'm happy he was gone, but I do wonder if we would've done this knowing what we know now.

It really isnt. I can't believe I am even responding. When you know someone isn't the guy you move on. But let's assume what you say is true and you want an experienced guy in here. What the fuck is the purpose? Did you think we were winning anything this year? This year is a building block toward the future not a year to go all in. Then what? You fire Shurmur at the end of the year and now you are a year behind? Ridiculous.

In comment 14858753 robbieballs2003 said:

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In comment 14858749 Anakim said: Quote: In comment 14858744 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: Really? I think it's a legitimate question. Obviously no one wanted Shurmur gone more than me and I'm happy he was gone, but I do wonder if we would've done this knowing what we know now. It really isnt. I can't believe I am even responding. When you know someone isn't the guy you move on. But let's assume what you say is true and you want an experienced guy in here. What the fuck is the purpose? Did you think we were winning anything this year? This year is a building block toward the future not a year to go all in. Then what? You fire Shurmur at the end of the year and now you are a year behind? Ridiculous.

No one is saying Shurmur was the guy. It was clear he wasn't.


But IDK, I'm not convinced that this isn't a win-now team. After all, if the reports are true, this is a make or break year for Gettleman. If we don't show marked improvement, it could be Gettleman's head.

Get some fresh air

But perhaps cover your face and make sure to social distance

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Experience. This almost in some ways levels the playing field for judge. I mean, how many of these coaches have ever dealt with an off season program that starts with Covid-19 and limited training and practice time? Maybe the extra fire he has lit under him already as a rookie head coach has his mind in over drive already and will help him come up with ideas that some of these old timers that are hamstrung by their old routines won’t be able to adapt to.

Think about it. He technically is at an advantage when it comes to first time head coaches. The leagues best don’t get to install their proven game winning atmosphere and and are forced to change things on the fly for the first time, in some cases like BB, decades.

Personally I think this is helpful to JJ from a rookie HC view point.

after the 2018 Philly road game. Not even kidding.

In comment 14858766 Route 9 said:

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after the 2018 Philly road game. Not even kidding.

Definitely. I never felt he was the right guy. He was so underwhelming every step of the way. I think he was the second worst head coach in the NFL behind Freddie Kitchens (jury's out on Zac Taylor, I guess).

In comment 14858765 bradshaw44 said:

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Experience. This almost in some ways levels the playing field for judge. I mean, how many of these coaches have ever dealt with an off season program that starts with Covid-19 and limited training and practice time? Maybe the extra fire he has lit under him already as a rookie head coach has his mind in over drive already and will help him come up with ideas that some of these old timers that are hamstrung by their old routines won’t be able to adapt to. Think about it. He technically is at an advantage when it comes to first time head coaches. The leagues best don’t get to install their proven game winning atmosphere and and are forced to change things on the fly for the first time, in some cases like BB, decades. Personally I think this is helpful to JJ from a rookie HC view point.

Interesting way of looking at things. Thanks

Any established team with basiclly the same playbooks for the offense and defense....will have a massive advantage under current conditions.

With that...the defensive coaches and OL coaches had to go....never seen a more poorly prepared team....I understand plenty of rookies were playing.....but it were the 2nd year guys making the most mistakes....and the most experienced, were the worse playing ones.

Seems like a good man.

Bad HC, but a good man.

Unfortunately the only experience he has is losing.

We are better off. 100%

In comment 14858765 bradshaw44 said:

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Experience. This almost in some ways levels the playing field for judge. I mean, how many of these coaches have ever dealt with an off season program that starts with Covid-19 and limited training and practice time? Maybe the extra fire he has lit under him already as a rookie head coach has his mind in over drive already and will help him come up with ideas that some of these old timers that are hamstrung by their old routines won’t be able to adapt to. Think about it. He technically is at an advantage when it comes to first time head coaches. The leagues best don’t get to install their proven game winning atmosphere and and are forced to change things on the fly for the first time, in some cases like BB, decades. Personally I think this is helpful to JJ from a rookie HC view point.

I think this is at least as likely as any other scenario. I wouldn't second-guess firing Shurmur, and I think Judge is going to be very good. I would just like to have an NFL season to see this all play out ...

well said. And that's all you need to know to feel comfortable firing him.

And how in the early season he barely touched the ball. He's an offensive coach and couldn't utilize his talent. Barkley up the middle. 3rd down let's run behind Engram. Let's trick them.

The only positive was his work with DJ. But maybe that was Tanneys job anyway.

and Judge will do more with less this year.

I wasn't consulted.

I also wasn't consulted when it was either Coughlin or Reese, and WE didn't choose to stick with Coughlin when the problems were clearly personnel -- not coaching.

win 2 games if we kept Sherm. Every game he got worse.

The question is whether he would've been fired given that offseason activities have essentially been cut and these activities are essential for roster-building, especially for a rookie head coach.

He’s a good guy and a good coach, but he’s not a CEO.

I am so excited by what I have seen from Joe Judge, he is a nature leader, and that’s what I want in my head coach. Leave the X’s and O’s To the coordinators.

Interesting thought I had the other day, I have no idea what position coach Tom Coughlin was...was he offense? Defense? I don’t know...to me he has always just been Coach.

In comment 14858802 rasbutant said:

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He’s a good guy and a good coach, but he’s not a CEO. I am so excited by what I have seen from Joe Judge, he is a nature leader, and that’s what I want in my head coach. Leave the X’s and O’s To the coordinators. Interesting thought I had the other day, I have no idea what position coach Tom Coughlin was...was he offense? Defense? I don’t know...to me he has always just been Coach.

He was a WR coach on the 1990 Super Bowl team

offensive coordinator. he was mediocrity personified. no analogies needed, he is what he seemed. good riddance.

That guy had nobusiness being a leader of a team.

He was like a quant in finance. Super smart, but do you want them leading a division? Super great with numbers, but actually conveying information to people? Results speak for themselves.

...you won't have to worry about this little fella.

Good coach?

Um.... when?

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Yes, I’d have fired him. He was an experienced loser. God, I pulled for him but the point came where I could barely look at his facial expressions and posture on the sidelines.

Yeah

Hypothetically if they knew there would be no offseason, they MIGHT have considered keeping him. Just my opinion. There’s a discussion there, I actually thought about this last week.

Me personally? Absolutely fire Shurmur. He turned out to be awful.

They both proved to me they were incapable to make successful adjustments or to plan properly.

This is what made them bad head coaches and what got them fired. They got the chance to be head coaches because of there football brains.

Since there is no field in this scenerio and it has everything to do with adjusting, planning and execution, I have no doubt it was been handled terribly.

Now is this a bad hand dealt for a new coach who is trying to install a new system. Absolutely yes! This does suck for coach judge which is why we will have to be even more leanent in our options of this new coaching administration.

However, I feel we picked judge for his intellect on how to create a process and follow through with execution which is exactly the kind of coach you want during this type of crisis.

Also it is good we have DG and Garret because it is not the first rodeo. We may be lucky that we did not fire DG because having a new GM at this time might caused a bigger of a hill to climb.

That line should say, I have no doubt that this situation WOULD have been handled terribly

I liked that post

Agree that when you have to adapt you want a process intense/data driven guy in charge

In comment 14858804 Anakim said:

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In comment 14858802 rasbutant said: Quote: He’s a good guy and a good coach, but he’s not a CEO. I am so excited by what I have seen from Joe Judge, he is a nature leader, and that’s what I want in my head coach. Leave the X’s and O’s To the coordinators. Interesting thought I had the other day, I have no idea what position coach Tom Coughlin was...was he offense? Defense? I don’t know...to me he has always just been Coach. He was a WR coach on the 1990 Super Bowl team

Yup, and an interesting point of comparison about Coughlin’s early days as a WR coach...Parcells and Belichick have both commented about how detail oriented and organized Coughlin was back then as a position coach.

Sounds similar to the way the guy who’s been the Patriots special teams coach (and WR coach too last year) has been consistently described.

to have Shurmur as your HC.

Why the Fuck would you keep him?
To waste yet another year?
I think some of you need to get out of the house.

Enough of the Shurmur should haves. He did nothing to earn the right to coach this team for another season. This time spent in my home watching Giant Super Bowls, Championship games even the Dallas game at their new stadium— all I could think about was the pure shit we have had to accept going back a number of years now. Coaches & players Shurmur sucked. Stop hoping and fix the fucking problem

Judge has been in one of the best run frnachises in the history of the college and pro games, he'll figure it out.

RE: Shurmur - up isn't always better. Some people's best landing spot is at the position coach level, coordinator, etc. The way the system is there is pressure to climb the ladder. They'd be better off paying rpemium coordinators at premium pay. Make it more competitive with HC pay.

In comment 14858854 mattnyg05 said:

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Hypothetically if they knew there would be no offseason, they MIGHT have considered keeping him. Just my opinion. There’s a discussion there, I actually thought about this last week. Me personally? Absolutely fire Shurmur. He turned out to be awful.

Exactly my sentiments. I would've cut bait regardless.

In comment 14858856 SteelGiant said:
[quote] They both proved to me they were incapable to make successful adjustments or to plan properly.

This is what made them bad head coaches and what got them fired. They got the chance to be head coaches because of there football brains.

Since there is no field in this scenerio and it has everything to do with adjusting, planning and execution, I have no doubt it was been handled terribly.

Now is this a bad hand dealt for a new coach who is trying to install a new system. Absolutely yes! This does suck for coach judge which is why we will have to be even more leanent in our options of this new coaching administration.

However, I feel we picked judge for his intellect on how to create a process and follow through with execution which is exactly the kind of coach you want during this type of crisis.

Also it is good we have DG and Garret because it is not the first rodeo. We may be lucky that we did not fire DG because having a new GM at this time might caused a bigger of a hill to climb. [/quote


Great post

But are you out of your freaking mind?!

He wad nor just a terrible coach, but a terrible leader. I don't think her instilled the confidence or discipline that will be required for players to proceed.

In comment 14858744 robbieballs2003 said:

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Really?

He’s bored.

In comment 14858742 montanagiant said:

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That we have 2 recently former head coaches on our staff. I think that more than makes up for Shurmer

Maybe this break gives him more time to prepare. From what Ive read, Judge is a guy that comes very prepared. I'll look at it that more time = more preparedness.

In comment 14858802 rasbutant said:

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He’s a good guy and a good coach, but he’s not a CEO. I am so excited by what I have seen from Joe Judge, he is a nature leader, and that’s what I want in my head coach. Leave the X’s and O’s To the coordinators. Interesting thought I had the other day, I have no idea what position coach Tom Coughlin was...was he offense? Defense? I don’t know...to me he has always just been Coach.

It's absurd the Giants org never took away playcalling from him when it was an obvious problem.

I think he might have also been too soft on the players. I think JJ will hold everybody accountable. Additionally, if all accounts are true, JJ will also be very prepared for all situations. In fact, I think guys like Garrett, Bielema and Kitchens will be able to help him get organized. JJ is also a guy that appears to study the game a d kiw the rules inside and out. TC was exceptional at that and, up until final few years was very good at challenging and discussing concerns with the refs. Shurmur always looked like a bystander?! I think this was the right choice. Saying all that however, JJ will need a bit of time to grow as a Head Coach. We will all have to show patience....BBI, yea right! I think JJ is a guy that will grow into a decent Head Coach. He's got the right attitude, personality and work ethic IMO.

But I can’t get over how the best coach now and maybe ever Belichick is willing to adjust his schemes to what his players can do but guys who have never won shit refuse to.

PC as a head coach and awful clock manager

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was, reportedly, really unhappy about re: Shurmur was the staff he put together. But, I have not seen one story about that issue.

Bravo,well said.
Hope all is well in your part of the world.