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Which was worse in 2019, our OL or D?

Eman11 : 4/4/2020 10:59 am
Just trying to get an idea of how BBI sees things. As evident by the many OL vs Simmons posts in threads, it seems like pretty close to even.

Based on posts I've read I might give a slight edge to BBI thinking the OL was worse,and figured this might be a decent way to see if that's true.

Me, I thought as bad as the OL was in 2019 our D was worse. I had zero confidence they could get the job done. Whether it was 3rd downs, holding leads, or actually controlling a game.

I never felt they would make a big stop or get a turnover and that's a shitty feeling to have every game, especially being raised bleeding blue and having our D being a trademark of Giant teams.

So what say you BBI, which was worse in 2019, the OL or D?
Defense by far.  
The_Boss : 4/4/2020 11:06 am : link
When a player comes out after destroying the team and says “that was the easiest 140 I’ve ever had”, that pretty much sums up the sorry state of not only the defense but the team. What annoys me is we could have asked the same thing the last 2 offseasons as well. Makes me wonder what aspect of the team has actually improved under Dave’s roster building? We still can’t block ‘em, cover ‘em, or sack ‘em. Just like the day he walked through the door.
D was worse  
Wiggy : 4/4/2020 11:09 am : link
But Saquon getting tackled as soon as he got a handoff was a close second
More to this than just surface results  
MeadowlandsMike : 4/4/2020 11:09 am : link
D was superyoung, youngest in NFL in many critical positions . Bettcher ran a fairly complicated defense. Giants added 2 bigger ticket FAs and a lot of youth now 1 year older.In theory they upgraded the DC.

D  
Capt. Don : 4/4/2020 11:10 am : link
.
Defense  
DonnieD89 : 4/4/2020 11:15 am : link
With still no playmaker on this team. And I say this being very annoyed that the O-line needs to be fixed.
Absolutely the defense  
Giants61 : 4/4/2020 11:16 am : link
They seemed to give up many third and long situations throughout the season. Whatever sacks the defense did get, it appeared the sacks did not occur where it would stop the opposing offense from eventually getting a first down and maintaining a drive. the passing defense was abysmal
RE: Defense by far.  
Dr. D : 4/4/2020 11:28 am : link
In comment 14858983 The_Boss said:
Quote:
When a player comes out after destroying the team and says “that was the easiest 140 I’ve ever had”, that pretty much sums up the sorry state of not only the defense but the team. What annoys me is we could have asked the same thing the last 2 offseasons as well. Makes me wonder what aspect of the team has actually improved under Dave’s roster building? We still can’t block ‘em, cover ‘em, or sack ‘em. Just like the day he walked through the door.

I agreed with you until you got to the Dave roster building part. I don't think it's realistic to look good while completely turning over a roster in 2 seasons and you can't judge the roster fairly because it's so young and the coaching last year wasn't good.

Our young secondary for example could look drastically better this year. It's not out of the Q for every aspect of our D to perform better than last year just due to experience and better coaching.

Defense without question  
UConn4523 : 4/4/2020 11:31 am : link
if it were even just bad it would have been an upgrade which would in turn also have helped our offense.
Pass Defense  
sb from NYT Forum : 4/4/2020 11:34 am : link
Giants run defense was actually good on a YPC basis.
Both need help  
Tim in VA : 4/4/2020 11:34 am : link
D is young and will improve. Hopefully coaching gives us a bump in both categories. I can't pick 1 over the other though
"Which was worse in 2019, our OL or D?"  
Torrag : 4/4/2020 11:42 am : link
Yes.
RE:  
Grey Pilgrim : 4/4/2020 11:51 am : link
In comment 14859044 Torrag said:
Quote:
Yes.


lol
I think the more accurate question  
Reb8thVA : 4/4/2020 11:55 am : link
Is what has been worse over the last SEVEN years
Not even close  
djm : 4/4/2020 11:59 am : link
The d in both 2018 and 2019 has been the Achilles heal here. The offense scored points both seasons. The D gave up a ton. That’s not to say the OL isn’t in need of help, but the D was a mess.

With that said, the D was a lot younger last year.
D  
PaulN : 4/4/2020 12:00 pm : link
By far
The Defense was worse  
LBH15 : 4/4/2020 12:14 pm : link
but I think there is a reasonable view that it should improve with young guys in secondary that got their feet wet in 2019, and upgrades with Williams, Martinez and Bradberry.

However, the OL is going to get worse as Solder is breaking down quickly and Giants are plugging in bodies, not NFL starters, at Center and Right Tackle.

Our pash rush was bad.  
Carl in CT : 4/4/2020 12:17 pm : link
It’s worse now.
In 2019 they both stunk  
BillT : 4/4/2020 12:19 pm : link
Currently it's the OL by a sizable margin.
OL was bad  
Metnut : 4/4/2020 12:21 pm : link
but the D was close to a league worst unit.
The defense was worse...  
Klaatu : 4/4/2020 12:22 pm : link
Which is why improving it was the primary focus in free agency.

However, the offensive line is still a horror show, which is why improving it should be the primary focus in the draft.

Also, the defense should benefit from better coaching, especially for its younger players, and a better scheme...a more impactful utilization of the resources at hand, and the ability to adapt and adjust to opposing offenses.

But no amount of coaching or gameplanning will have a similar impact on the offensive line, because as it stands now the talent just isn't there.
Without a Doubt Defense  
Samiam : 4/4/2020 12:22 pm : link
There were multiple winnable games over the past few years where the defense could not hold a lead sometimes a large lead. The offense, for all its warts, scored points often enough to win.

By the way, to those who think the team improved the defense in a big way, they did resign Golden who clearly was their best pass rusher last year. Plus, they still have not brought in a LB who can cover a TE or a back especially on 3rd down
Overall the Defense was worse  
gidiefor : Mod : 4/4/2020 12:34 pm : link
It did show some improvement over the course of the season, however, it was by no means consistent.

Overall, the Offense was not balanced and had problems establishing the run, impacting the defense. The Offensive line did not perform particularly well against good defenses all season.

If Eli had stayed at QB I don't think any of us would have appreciated the outcome, and this could have had the Offensive line and overall Offensive performance viewed as poor as the defense.

Jones had an amazing season warts and all - but he was really the difference on Offense.

Both sides of the ball need help!
RE: The Defense was worse  
MeadowlandsMike : 4/4/2020 12:41 pm : link
In comment 14859088 LBH15 said:
Quote:
but I think there is a reasonable view that it should improve with young guys in secondary that got their feet wet in 2019, and upgrades with Williams, Martinez and Bradberry.

However, the OL is going to get worse as Solder is breaking down quickly and Giants are plugging in bodies, not NFL starters, at Center and Right Tackle.


Exactly. Now I do have some optimism that Gates can plug one of those holes (most likely RT or OC). Honestly, I don't think Giants ignore getting a high quality starter at OL in FA if they didn't have high hopes for Gates to secure a starting spot.

Fleming is a swing backup ideally and was paid as such in this inflated market.
Defense  
Maijay : 4/4/2020 12:44 pm : link
was beyond putrid.
Defense has ZERO impact players  
edavisiii : 4/4/2020 1:00 pm : link
On offense we have Jones, Barkley, Engram and Shepard. Knock the trade all you want but L Williams might be the best athlete for his position on the D. Our line is below average but not among the worse in the league. Jones holding the ball too long hurt the perception.

I don't think Hernandez and Halapio were good fits for zone blocking scheme! I really think they will play better for Columbo than they did for Hal Hunter.

I feel we should draft one of the elite players at 4, look to see who falls at 36 and worry about need from Rd 3 on. We need a center and right tackle. Teams that draft well find those guys on day 3! We need to DRAFT WELL!
The defense has potential, the OL does not  
PatersonPlank : 4/4/2020 1:05 pm : link
The defense was worse however they are very young and have some talent. They are growing and I think they could be much improved with a year under their belt and a new DC. Baker, X, Lawrence, Connelly, Love, Beal, Ballentine, Tomlinson, Hill, even Peppers, are all young talented guys. Add Martinez and Bradbury and I am optimistic.

The offensive line on the other hand is old and sucks. Remmers, Solder, Pulley are not young, have proven they are limited talent-wise, and there is no growth or improvement to be expected.

WE need to bring in young OL talent now
OL has been a disater for 8 years  
guineaT : 4/4/2020 1:05 pm : link
Both units sucked last year. OL is the unit that should get the resources first. It's past time to fix it. Young QB and RB trying to establish their careers make it the priority. Every year people fall in love with the shiny and we get our asses handed to us at the line of scrimmage and our QB's get mauled on 3rd down.

I agree that we need OL ...but! Many think there are 6 elite players!  
edavisiii : 4/4/2020 1:14 pm : link
Two Quarterbacks.... Brown, Young, Simmons and Okudah. If that is how DG sees it then he should draft one of the elite. How many times have teams passed of talent for need and it came back to bite them in the ass. If we followed the "draft for need" philosophy we would have never gotten LT and Carl Banks. The Giants sucked back then but had great linebackers before the draft. the Patriots thought they didn't need another WR so they passed on Jerry Rice and drafted Trevor Matich.

Now. There are some that think Wirffs is elite. DG????
We will see! the only thing that matters is their board. Remember last year and all "draft experts!" They are all looking for a big eraser!!!!
Defense sucked  
M.S. : 4/4/2020 1:28 pm : link

by far.

Not close.
Defense by a mile  
PhilSimms15 : 4/4/2020 3:04 pm : link
The O scores points. Not best in league or anything but could move the ball. The Defense was simply putrid.

The O has a couple off playmakers in Barkley, Jones, Shep, and Engram when healthy.

The D did not have one playmaker.
Odd comparison  
bc4life : 4/4/2020 3:19 pm : link
why compare 1 element of the offense against the entire defense?

DL was good last year. Secondary young and poorly led both on and off the field.

Fair comparison would be OL and LBs. That's a tough call -
even then - was it all of the OL and all of the LBs. Were there reasonable excuses - LB was very young (Connelly, XMan, Carter). OL had more experience. Hernandez was youngest. So, I'd say the OL. Mainly because of the youth factor, more understandable.
Irrelevant  
WillVAB : 4/4/2020 4:03 pm : link
The Giants have invested significant resources in Jones and Barkley. They should be prioritizing the front necessary to maximize that return.
WillVAB  
bc4life : 4/4/2020 4:14 pm : link
Looks like the pool of OL talent will be a lot better to pick from this year.
RE: Odd comparison  
Eman11 : 4/4/2020 4:17 pm : link
In comment 14859256 bc4life said:
Quote:
why compare 1 element of the offense against the entire defense?

DL was good last year. Secondary young and poorly led both on and off the field.

Fair comparison would be OL and LBs. That's a tough call -
even then - was it all of the OL and all of the LBs. Were there reasonable excuses - LB was very young (Connelly, XMan, Carter). OL had more experience. Hernandez was youngest. So, I'd say the OL. Mainly because of the youth factor, more understandable.


Because it seems BBI either wants an OL or someone on D with our first pick. While some want Simmons, some also wouldn't mind Okudah and some even like the DL out of Auburn, while for the O the consensus by far is an OL over any other O position.

I was really just trying out gauge thoughts here as to what people thought was worse, the OL or D, hence greater need i.e. OL or D.
Horns of a dilemma...  
CT Charlie : 4/4/2020 4:19 pm : link
The D was worse, but the ineptitude of the O-line jeopardizes the team's greatest assets: not DJ and Saquon per se, but having them both on rookie contracts. We can't afford to squander their talents while in their primes -- or they may leave.

The O-line, however, is only one average player and one good player away from being serviceable, whereas the D needs 3 upgrades at a minimum, just to stop being porous.
EMan I here ya  
bc4life : 4/4/2020 4:31 pm : link
To my mind, DL is good. secondary needs a safety. Have a lot of young unproven players at LB. We just need a difference make at that level.

i just got sick  
lightemup : 4/4/2020 4:58 pm : link
thinking about our D from last year.They were so putrid. All teams had to do was run deep crossing patterns and they'd have a minimum 15 yard gain.
RE: WillVAB  
WillVAB : 4/4/2020 5:26 pm : link
In comment 14859294 bc4life said:
Quote:
Looks like the pool of OL talent will be a lot better to pick from this year.


Looks that way, hopefully they don’t blow a top 10 pick on a niche coverage player.
Defense  
Biteymax22 : 4/4/2020 5:37 pm : link
But saying we have a potential franchise QB we are looking to develop, OLine is a bigger need.
RE: Defense  
section125 : 4/4/2020 6:41 pm : link
In comment 14859335 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
But saying we have a potential franchise QB we are looking to develop, OLine is a bigger need.


No it isn't. The offense could score last year. The defense could not stop anybody. Let's get real.
The oline is a definite need, but the defense out and out sucked.
Defensive back 7 was the league's worst, no contest  
SGMen : 4/5/2020 7:44 am : link
We stopped the run well enough at time because our DL was acceptable. But our back 7 could not cover me!!!

The OL was pathetic and what makes it all the more amazing is that our OL was relatively healthy all year!!!!

We didn't upgrade the OL this off-season which is why I still have this feeling that DG trades the #4 for a team's #1 and a starting OT. Just a thought....
RE: Defensive back 7 was the league's worst, no contest  
M.S. : 4/5/2020 10:24 am : link
In comment 14859644 SGMen said:
Quote:
We stopped the run well enough at time because our DL was acceptable. But our back 7 could not cover me!!!

The OL was pathetic and what makes it all the more amazing is that our OL was relatively healthy all year!!!!

We didn't upgrade the OL this off-season which is why I still have this feeling that DG trades the #4 for a team's #1 and a starting OT. Just a thought....

Could have been the worst Back 7 in the HISTORY of the NFL.
RE: Defense by far.  
BigBlueJuice : 4/6/2020 9:19 am : link
Our defense was worse than the o line, but the o line has been neglected for almost a decade and the defense had a bunch of rookies running it so that being said, defense will improve with rookies year 1 to year 2 jumps but veteran o line not getting it done is more of a concern seeing that DJ fumble issues derive from too much pressure. So I would like to see giants grab best tackle after a trade back to collect more picks and possibly switch 3rd rounders with whoever trades up for a qb.


In comment 14858983 The_Boss said:
Quote:
When a player comes out after destroying the team and says “that was the easiest 140 I’ve ever had”, that pretty much sums up the sorry state of not only the defense but the team. What annoys me is we could have asked the same thing the last 2 offseasons as well. Makes me wonder what aspect of the team has actually improved under Dave’s roster building? We still can’t block ‘em, cover ‘em, or sack ‘em. Just like the day he walked through the door.
Which sucked more?  
Big Blue Beerguy : 4/6/2020 11:18 am : link
Objectively, the better answer is defense. Defense was 25th in the league by yards, and 30th by points (it looks worse if you focus only on defense against the pass). Offense, in contrast, with 23rd in the league by yards, and tied for 18th by points (near the league middle). So those numbers suggest that defense was the more challenged side of the ball.

My untrained fan's eye also makes me believe the following: When the offense sputtered, it often looked like a failure of imaginative scheming and/or failure to adjust. Sadly, one of my enduring memories of the 2019 season will be the first Eagles game. The offense looked good in the first half and gave us a good (17-0) lead. The defense, of course, blew it in the 2nd half/OT, but I remember we came out of halftime and went nowhere, with the offense trying to push Barkley through the tackles on our first two, futile, series. After the 2nd futile run up the gut I turned to my son and said "we're gonna lose this game." So in my mind, offense could have performed better with better coaching. Defense, on the other hand, often looked like a player problem (sometimes a coaching failure too, but of a different kind). Some (Baker, Ballentine, etc.) did not know where they needed to be, while others (Bethea) did not have the athletic ability to do what they were asked to do.

Don't get me wrong - the o-line was bad and needs improvement. But for me it is hard to argue that the o-line was worse than the defense (specifically pass defense; the run defense actually performed well most games - tied for 5th in the league by yards per carry surrendered).
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