First off....amazing movie and Joaquin Phoenix was incredible in his role. So here is my question...
Who do you think was a better Joker, him or Ledger?
Also...do you think Phoenix would have been good for Dark Knight and vice versa.
I think Ledger was a better Joker. He brought so much uniqueness to the character. The licking of the lips, etc. but I don’t know if he would have been as good as Phoenix was In the new movie.
Just boring Sunday discussion.
Phoenix was excellent in Joker and deserved the Oscar, but I think he has had better performances in his career (Walk The Line, The Master) where this one won’t necessarily stand the test of time like Ledger’s always will.
And FWIW I think DiCaprio deserved it this year just as much as Phoenix
Ledger’s Joker has none of that. He was scary. “Some men want to see the world burn” and I believed it.
Ledger’s Joker has none of that. He was scary. “Some men want to see the world burn” and I believed it.
They were just very different characters. Ledger’s Joker was brilliant who had a complex scheme planned to achieve his goal. He also had some self-control. Phoenix’s joker was just brutal and impulsive with no plan.
Nicholson's Joker was the gangster, and Ledger's Joker was the anarchist. While Phoenix's performance was exceptional and certainly Oscar worthy, I don't think his character fits any of those. The comparison to Taxi Driver is spot on, and ultimately that is what it was intended to be.
I don't think you could have dropped Phoenix's version of the Joker into the Dark Knight, as it would not have fit.
Having said that I prefer Heath Ledgers version. I think he was the best Joker I have ever seen.
Im going to lean towards Phoenix for two reasons: I work in the mental health field and it resonated with me that much more because people absolutely slip through the cracks like that.
Secondly because Phoenix carried that movie by himself. Ledger, as enjoyable as that performance was, largely works as the perfect foil to Batman. I dont know if 120 minutes of Ledgers Joker as the central character works as a standalone movie. IMO it worked so well because it was the a counterweight to the protagonist. Ledger's Joker was a scene stealer. An incredible supporting performance. Phoenix's Joker was the entire focus of a desperately sad descent into madness. And maybe Ledger could have pulled that off. But as the performances stand now Id say Phoenix.
I have yet to watch the Joker, but so far my impression is it is almost a stand alone movie, not really the arch rival of Batman. Hell, Bruce Wayne is what, 8 in this movie while Joker was 40 something?
For me, in the live action world, Ledger nailed the maniacal nature of the character better than anyone. The lip licking and other mannerisms were indicative of some mental illness and the overall character was the sociopath he's supposed to be.
That said, I still think his performance was overblown because of his death, loosely related to the role. I don't think it was Oacar worthy. I can't comment on Phoenix' performance yet.
Nicholson was more of a slightly darker version of Romero's TV Joker.
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I felt some sadness and empathy for Phoenix’s Joker, who was a desperately ill person doing horrible things.
Ledger’s Joker has none of that. He was scary. “Some men want to see the world burn” and I believed it.
They were just very different characters. Ledger’s Joker was brilliant who had a complex scheme planned to achieve his goal. He also had some self-control. Phoenix’s joker was just brutal and impulsive with no plan.
Joker was a better film, but I dont see it having much rewatch value.
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In comment 14859832 Ben in Tampa said:
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I felt some sadness and empathy for Phoenix’s Joker, who was a desperately ill person doing horrible things.
Ledger’s Joker has none of that. He was scary. “Some men want to see the world burn” and I believed it.
They were just very different characters. Ledger’s Joker was brilliant who had a complex scheme planned to achieve his goal. He also had some self-control. Phoenix’s joker was just brutal and impulsive with no plan.
That's the thing. The planning is what sets him apart as a sociopath and not just some loon who goes on a rampage.
But his "plan" was nonsensical and idiotic.
So he planned that Dent would become corrupted? So why did he fire a fucking rocket launcher at him? I guess he knew that Batman would jump in front of the rocket?
Awful awful script.
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In comment 14859850 Jay on the Island said:
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In comment 14859832 Ben in Tampa said:
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I felt some sadness and empathy for Phoenix’s Joker, who was a desperately ill person doing horrible things.
Ledger’s Joker has none of that. He was scary. “Some men want to see the world burn” and I believed it.
They were just very different characters. Ledger’s Joker was brilliant who had a complex scheme planned to achieve his goal. He also had some self-control. Phoenix’s joker was just brutal and impulsive with no plan.
That's the thing. The planning is what sets him apart as a sociopath and not just some loon who goes on a rampage.
But his "plan" was nonsensical and idiotic.
So he planned that Dent would become corrupted? So why did he fire a fucking rocket launcher at him? I guess he knew that Batman would jump in front of the rocket?
Awful awful script.
I’m hoping to watch it sometime in the near future during quarantine.
I’m hoping to watch it sometime in the near future during quarantine.
The director has said that its not necessarily supposed to be "the" Joker but perhaps the man who inspired Batmans nemesis. The timelines dont quite add up. Phoneix's Joker is about 30 years older than Bruce Wayne as Wayne is portrayed as a child in the movie.
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Has in my life been played by Jack Nicholson (who should get more credit for setting the whole direction of the character as darker), HL and JP. I thought JP was amazing and there is literally no movie if he’s not that good. So I give it to him.
First, the tone of his Joker wasn't all that dark. Second, it is the comics that set that tone. Joker is a dark and deranged sociopath. Ledger is the one who nailed it. Hell, I joked, but Hammil's animated Joker is darker and true than Nicholson's.
Nicholson was more of a slightly darker version of Romero's TV Joker.
Agree with this. The Phoenix portrayal was also excellent, but it was not a comic book movie by any means. I can’t even really compare Ledger and Phoenix for that reason.
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First, the tone of his Joker wasn't all that dark. Second, it is the comics that set that tone. Joker is a dark and deranged sociopath. Ledger is the one who nailed it. Hell, I joked, but Hammil's animated Joker is darker and true than Nicholson's.
Nicholson was more of a slightly darker version of Romero's TV Joker.
Agree with this. The Phoenix portrayal was also excellent, but it was not a comic book movie by any means. I can’t even really compare Ledger and Phoenix for that reason.
Agree with all of this. As I was kind of saying above, you can't even compare Nicholson's Joker with Ledger's, because they represent different versions of the character. The Joker in Batman 89 had a background in organized crime, and IIRC The Dark Knight had subtle hints at the Joker having a military background and immense PTSD. Where the two do align however, is that they were both worthy adversaries to Batman, whereas Phoenix's Joker was never intended to be.
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Has in my life been played by Jack Nicholson (who should get more credit for setting the whole direction of the character as darker), HL and JP. I thought JP was amazing and there is literally no movie if he’s not that good. So I give it to him.
First, the tone of his Joker wasn't all that dark. Second, it is the comics that set that tone. Joker is a dark and deranged sociopath. Ledger is the one who nailed it. Hell, I joked, but Hammil's animated Joker is darker and true than Nicholson's.
Nicholson was more of a slightly darker version of Romero's TV Joker.
Might not be a popular opinion but Ive always disliked Nicholson as the Joker. And Keaton as Batman, fwiw. I thought that movie was trash, even as a kid.
One thing is for sure, that’s a role any actor should kill for. It’s served up on a silver platter. You’re Set up for success.
(Still cringe worthy).
Though Uma was a smokeshow in that film.
(Still cringe worthy).
Though Uma was a smokeshow in that film.
That’s cuz he was the Riddler 😁
Horrible movie.
Horrible movie.
TLJ was Two Face. That movie was awful.
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Does Phoenix’s Joker seem like someone who could beat Batman? One criticism I’ve read is that the movie plays well in isolation but doesn’t make sense in the Batman universe.
I’m hoping to watch it sometime in the near future during quarantine.
The director has said that its not necessarily supposed to be "the" Joker but perhaps the man who inspired Batmans nemesis. The timelines dont quite add up. Phoneix's Joker is about 30 years older than Bruce Wayne as Wayne is portrayed as a child in the movie.
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In comment 14859877 Daniel in MI said:
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Has in my life been played by Jack Nicholson (who should get more credit for setting the whole direction of the character as darker), HL and JP. I thought JP was amazing and there is literally no movie if he’s not that good. So I give it to him.
First, the tone of his Joker wasn't all that dark. Second, it is the comics that set that tone. Joker is a dark and deranged sociopath. Ledger is the one who nailed it. Hell, I joked, but Hammil's animated Joker is darker and true than Nicholson's.
Nicholson was more of a slightly darker version of Romero's TV Joker.
Might not be a popular opinion but Ive always disliked Nicholson as the Joker. And Keaton as Batman, fwiw. I thought that movie was trash, even as a kid.
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In comment 14859850 Jay on the Island said:
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In comment 14859832 Ben in Tampa said:
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I felt some sadness and empathy for Phoenix’s Joker, who was a desperately ill person doing horrible things.
Ledger’s Joker has none of that. He was scary. “Some men want to see the world burn” and I believed it.
They were just very different characters. Ledger’s Joker was brilliant who had a complex scheme planned to achieve his goal. He also had some self-control. Phoenix’s joker was just brutal and impulsive with no plan.
That's the thing. The planning is what sets him apart as a sociopath and not just some loon who goes on a rampage.
But his "plan" was nonsensical and idiotic.
So he planned that Dent would become corrupted? So why did he fire a fucking rocket launcher at him? I guess he knew that Batman would jump in front of the rocket?
Awful awful script.
I totally agree with this. The movie was entertaining to watch one time but don't try to think about it too much. There are multiple parts that make zero sense.