quality of pro ready offensive linemen. Proliferation of the spread and the techniques being taught by many programs has drastically reduced the number of players coming out that are prepared to contribute. Becton for example was only asked to perform what would be considered NFL pass protection techniques about 15% of the time. When he did it was sloppy. Not really his fault and with more reps and preparation he might be able to execute extremely well. But is that a given? And it's the same for many of these prospects. Lots of projection involved hence referring to them as 'projects'.
RE: I remember Tiki, in training camp, said, 'Diehl was a steal'
...was that you can win Super Bowls with a left tackle drafted in the 5th round than you are missing the beauty of Dave Diehl. What made him special was that you could plug him anywhere along the OL but center and he will get the job done. You didn't win because of him, but you didn't lose because of him, either. If you're looking for the next Dave Diehl, look for the guy who can play multiple positions along the OL. Tristan Wirfs perhaps.
I don't really care, I just like saying Dextor Clinkscale.
klaatu, you are a funny dude!
Glad you are picking up on the premise of my thread.
Here it is guys, good O Lines may have a 1st round OT or may not have any 1st rounders.
Many factors determine the quality and success of developing a O Line and creating a great unit. There is no formula. I like the OT prospects in this draft but there seems to not be a consensus OT1.
If we trade down a couple of spots and pick up a 2nd or 3rd round pick while securing one of the OT’s that is great.
We may still get a very good OT in round 2
RE: RE: What round was Dextor Clinkscale drafted in?
I don't really care, I just like saying Dextor Clinkscale.
klaatu, you are a funny dude!
Glad you are picking up on the premise of my thread.
Here it is guys, good O Lines may have a 1st round OT or may not have any 1st rounders.
Many factors determine the quality and success of developing a O Line and creating a great unit. There is no formula. I like the OT prospects in this draft but there seems to not be a consensus OT1.
If we trade down a couple of spots and pick up a 2nd or 3rd round pick while securing one of the OT’s that is great.
We may still get a very good OT in round 2
What's the obsession with a consensus? Does there need to be agreement among the talking heads before DG is allowed to choose which OT the scouts and coaches agree is best?
Or should we just let the other teams decide who they like best and we'll take whoever is leftover since there is no consensus?
Every time I see someone talk about the lack of consensus, I can't help but get the feeling that what they're really saying is, "I really don't want my friends to make fun of me because Kiper and/or McShay didn't like the pick the Giants made."
RE: Different college era and game has impacted the quantity and...
quality of pro ready offensive linemen. Proliferation of the spread and the techniques being taught by many programs has drastically reduced the number of players coming out that are prepared to contribute. Becton for example was only asked to perform what would be considered NFL pass protection techniques about 15% of the time. When he did it was sloppy. Not really his fault and with more reps and preparation he might be able to execute extremely well. But is that a given? And it's the same for many of these prospects. Lots of projection involved hence referring to them as 'projects'.
Very true. The only proviso seem to be a few schools like Iowa and Wisconsin seem to put out more than their share of kids who seem
To transition One of the reasons I think Wirfs is a safer pick i the minds of some. . Bama gets so many kids but Saban has transitioned
Away from the pro set more w the last two QBs being Tua and Hurts. They literally have to learn a whole new skill set. Not an easy transition I the best of times. With the uncertainty of the lock down teams w might take a gamble on a Becton may not want to gamble as
Much
...was that you can win Super Bowls with a left tackle drafted in the 5th round than you are missing the beauty of Dave Diehl. What made him special was that you could plug him anywhere along the OL but center and he will get the job done. You didn't win because of him, but you didn't lose because of him, either. If you're looking for the next Dave Diehl, look for the guy who can play multiple positions along the OL. Tristan Wirfs perhaps.
Diehl is proof there is value in versatility, a tremendous +++ for basically your guard to do yeoman's work at LT because the team was too lazy or incapable to draft a real LT.
what round and what selection in that round was last year's SB champion starting offensive left tackle drafted in?
Eric Fisher of the Kansas City Chiefs was drafted..... 1st overall in the first round in the 2013 draft. He wasn't even considered very good his first 2-3 years IIRC, although he did start almost immediately.
Maybe there's a lesson in that? And KC's other starting OT was the GOOD Schwartz brother, Mitchell.
Fisher and Schwartz, sounds like a firm of Jewish CPAs.
But man did a lot us shed no tears when he retired. He was a complete liability those last few seasons. Great Giant/career for 5th round pick, but he hung on a couple of years too late.
But man did a lot us shed no tears when he retired. He was a complete liability those last few seasons. Great Giant/career for 5th round pick, but he hung on a couple of years too late.
This is what I remember too.
How can this team be so sad at OT and LB for this many years? Oh, now I remember...they haven't beaten anybody in 10 years.
RE: RE: What round was Dextor Clinkscale drafted in?
I don't really care, I just like saying Dextor Clinkscale.
klaatu, you are a funny dude!
Glad you are picking up on the premise of my thread.
Yeah...picking it up, and dropping it like a hot potato.
I thought I'd made that pretty clear.
Pretty smug as well.
Drafting an OT in round 1 is fine. I am in agreement that there maybe be a very good OT among the 4 top guys. However, is drafting an OT at 4 a good value. This thread is about understanding that an O Line can not only compete but win Super Bowls when the sum of the parts is greater than any one piece.
I am not saying Diehl was an amazing LT. He did make a pro bowl so there is that.
The top 4 tackles are all intriguing.
Wirfs: great athlete, has played both RT and LT but may project better to OG.
Wills: played strictly RT during his college career. Most pro ready.
Becton: huge and athletic. Needs better technique.
Thomas: lots of experience in the SEC. better run blocker than pass blocker
How much better are these 4 guys, who all have some questions and work to do, compared to an Austin Jackson, Josh Jones or Ezra Cleveland who should and may be available at the top of round 2?
that because we had a good OL for SB's that weren't high draftees that the model is perfectly acceptable to duplicate is a trap many fall into.
You can do that shit all over the place. Why draft a QB high, when Brady has so many rings? Why draft a WR high when you can sign a Victor Cruz?
The point isn't where you accumulate the players - it is that you actually find, sign or draft GOOD players.
The main thought of the thread I am trying to provoke is, we have the 4th pick in a draft and there is no clear cut OT1, like Orlando Pace or Jonathan Ogden. Yet there might be a LB at 4 that our team could really use. I am not saying the OT’s in this draft aren’t good or worth a 1st round pick, I believe Simmons is an impact player and would be hard to pass up.
So is Wirfs or Wills that much better than Cleveland, Wilson or Jackson?
If we want a Left Tackle then we should trade back and acquire extra picks and just draft Thomas. He is a 3 year starter in the SEC.
Or do we want a RT who might be a good LT or might be a better guard.
Somebody give me clarity on the best OT to draft at pick 4!!!!
If more tackles go round 1 this year and NYG are left with their 9th ranked tackle at pick 36? Thing is nobody knows how the draft plays out. I for one didn’t expect Hernandez to fall to round 2 but he did. Some years, certain positions go more often round 1. Who knows if teams feel like the WR class is deep to the point where 2nd and 3rd tier guys are close enough to the point where they could fall mid round 2 early 3 while after 2nd tier of OT, they are all collectively a bunch of projects and they go earlier? I’ve said this often but IF the Giants have one OT ranked well above the rest, take him at 4 and don’t look back. If a few similar ranking, trade back a few spots and protect your QB.
Maybe one day there will be a way we can easily look something like that up, but nowadays we can only guess what round he was drafted in.
yesssss exactly what i said to myself
I was making a point. Holy shit
What was your point exactly? That we should just draft another Dave Diehl in the 5th round? Great idea. Why don't we draft the next Tom Brady in the 6th round while we're at it?
RE: RE: RE: RE: What round was Dextor Clinkscale drafted in?
How much better are these 4 guys, who all have some questions and work to do, compared to an Austin Jackson, Josh Jones or Ezra Cleveland who should and may be available at the top of round 2?
It's possible and even likely that all three of the OTs on the second tier will be gone on Day One. The Huddle Report, one of the best sites for predicting the Top 100 have all three of them in their Top 30. If they want one of the three they will likely have to give up assets to get back into round one for him. Do we really want that?
Sign me up for OT in Rd 1 and WR in Rd 2 and we can let the defense spend a year gaining experience in the new system before we add more youth to the equation. We still don't know how good or bad are the youngsters on defense that were drafted in 2018 and 2019.
It's really ironic to pick Diehl to illustrate this point,
rounds and plug him in to start, think about this:
If it were that easy, every team would have reliable starting tackles. And yet, they don't. Good tackles are a rarity. A good offensive line is a rarity.
Just because you hit on a couple late round and UDFA's at a position once or twice, doesn't mean you can just do it whenever you want. Thats ridiculous.
RE: And if your point was that we can just take a tackle in the late
rounds and plug him in to start, think about this:
If it were that easy, every team would have reliable starting tackles. And yet, they don't. Good tackles are a rarity. A good offensive line is a rarity.
Just because you hit on a couple late round and UDFA's at a position once or twice, doesn't mean you can just do it whenever you want. Thats ridiculous.
Hey Brown,
Give us your can't miss LT prospect in this draft. You have a 25% chance of being correct.
I still haven't had anybody answer the question of who is worth the 4th overall selection.
Simmons is the better player and that is my point.
O Lines are made of 5 players that are not only talented but a scheme fit and are well coached. That is also my point.
For the record if they go tackle I am guessing it will be Wirfs mainly because he comes from a college program that is known for producing viable NFL O Linemen. He is an excellent athlete and will at worst be a pro bowl OG.
Were better then Diehl and yet Diehl is in the ring of honor.Brad Benson should be definitely be in over Diehl and Snee and Marshall should be in over Tuck.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Diehl - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
What round was Sean Ohara drafted? Rich Suebert? Chris Snee?
The same round as Joe Montana. So, if you're looking for an OT or a franchise QB, the 3rd round is definitely the place to look.
Round: 3 / Pick: 79 by the Jets
Quote:
I can't remember.
The same round as Joe Montana. So, if you're looking for an OT or a franchise QB, the 3rd round is definitely the place to look.
LOL
What round was Harry Carson drafted in, its slipped my mind.
Bobby Wagner?
Darius Leonard of the Colts?
leonard in 2nd wagner I am not sure/ 2 or 3
All top of my head
I was the 12 yr old with his drafts books when carson was drafted
all top of my head wife thinks I am an idiot savant I told here I only remeber things that matter to me
Nice, had the same thought.
The OP is being ffunny, and trying to point out we can get an OT lower in the draft than at #1.
Quote:
I can't remember.
The same round as Joe Montana. So, if you're looking for an OT or a franchise QB, the 3rd round is definitely the place to look.
Klaatu, your killing it!
Quote:
In comment 14860929 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
I can't remember.
The same round as Joe Montana. So, if you're looking for an OT or a franchise QB, the 3rd round is definitely the place to look.
Klaatu, your killing it!
Would you like to subscribe to my newsletter?
klaatu, you are a funny dude!
Glad you are picking up on the premise of my thread.
Here it is guys, good O Lines may have a 1st round OT or may not have any 1st rounders.
Many factors determine the quality and success of developing a O Line and creating a great unit. There is no formula. I like the OT prospects in this draft but there seems to not be a consensus OT1.
If we trade down a couple of spots and pick up a 2nd or 3rd round pick while securing one of the OT’s that is great.
We may still get a very good OT in round 2
Quote:
I don't really care, I just like saying Dextor Clinkscale.
klaatu, you are a funny dude!
Glad you are picking up on the premise of my thread.
Here it is guys, good O Lines may have a 1st round OT or may not have any 1st rounders.
Many factors determine the quality and success of developing a O Line and creating a great unit. There is no formula. I like the OT prospects in this draft but there seems to not be a consensus OT1.
If we trade down a couple of spots and pick up a 2nd or 3rd round pick while securing one of the OT’s that is great.
We may still get a very good OT in round 2
What's the obsession with a consensus? Does there need to be agreement among the talking heads before DG is allowed to choose which OT the scouts and coaches agree is best?
Or should we just let the other teams decide who they like best and we'll take whoever is leftover since there is no consensus?
Every time I see someone talk about the lack of consensus, I can't help but get the feeling that what they're really saying is, "I really don't want my friends to make fun of me because Kiper and/or McShay didn't like the pick the Giants made."
Very true. The only proviso seem to be a few schools like Iowa and Wisconsin seem to put out more than their share of kids who seem
To transition One of the reasons I think Wirfs is a safer pick i the minds of some. . Bama gets so many kids but Saban has transitioned
Away from the pro set more w the last two QBs being Tua and Hurts. They literally have to learn a whole new skill set. Not an easy transition I the best of times. With the uncertainty of the lock down teams w might take a gamble on a Becton may not want to gamble as
Much
Diehl is proof there is value in versatility, a tremendous +++ for basically your guard to do yeoman's work at LT because the team was too lazy or incapable to draft a real LT.
Eric Fisher of the Kansas City Chiefs was drafted..... 1st overall in the first round in the 2013 draft. He wasn't even considered very good his first 2-3 years IIRC, although he did start almost immediately.
Maybe there's a lesson in that? And KC's other starting OT was the GOOD Schwartz brother, Mitchell.
Fisher and Schwartz, sounds like a firm of Jewish CPAs.
This is what I remember too.
How can this team be so sad at OT and LB for this many years? Oh, now I remember...they haven't beaten anybody in 10 years.
Quote:
I don't really care, I just like saying Dextor Clinkscale.
klaatu, you are a funny dude!
Glad you are picking up on the premise of my thread.
Yeah...picking it up, and dropping it like a hot potato.
I thought I'd made that pretty clear.
Quote:
In comment 14860987 Klaatu said:
Quote:
I don't really care, I just like saying Dextor Clinkscale.
klaatu, you are a funny dude!
Glad you are picking up on the premise of my thread.
Yeah...picking it up, and dropping it like a hot potato.
I thought I'd made that pretty clear.
Pretty smug as well.
Drafting an OT in round 1 is fine. I am in agreement that there maybe be a very good OT among the 4 top guys. However, is drafting an OT at 4 a good value. This thread is about understanding that an O Line can not only compete but win Super Bowls when the sum of the parts is greater than any one piece.
Diehl: 5th round
Suebert: UDFA
O’Hara: UDFA
Snee: 2nd round
McKenzie: 3rd round
I am not saying Diehl was an amazing LT. He did make a pro bowl so there is that.
The top 4 tackles are all intriguing.
Wirfs: great athlete, has played both RT and LT but may project better to OG.
Wills: played strictly RT during his college career. Most pro ready.
Becton: huge and athletic. Needs better technique.
Thomas: lots of experience in the SEC. better run blocker than pass blocker
How much better are these 4 guys, who all have some questions and work to do, compared to an Austin Jackson, Josh Jones or Ezra Cleveland who should and may be available at the top of round 2?
You can do that shit all over the place. Why draft a QB high, when Brady has so many rings? Why draft a WR high when you can sign a Victor Cruz?
The point isn't where you accumulate the players - it is that you actually find, sign or draft GOOD players.
yesssss exactly what i said to myself
Quote:
Maybe one day there will be a way we can easily look something like that up, but nowadays we can only guess what round he was drafted in.
yesssss exactly what i said to myself
I was making a point. Holy shit
You can do that shit all over the place. Why draft a QB high, when Brady has so many rings? Why draft a WR high when you can sign a Victor Cruz?
The point isn't where you accumulate the players - it is that you actually find, sign or draft GOOD players.
The main thought of the thread I am trying to provoke is, we have the 4th pick in a draft and there is no clear cut OT1, like Orlando Pace or Jonathan Ogden. Yet there might be a LB at 4 that our team could really use. I am not saying the OT’s in this draft aren’t good or worth a 1st round pick, I believe Simmons is an impact player and would be hard to pass up.
So is Wirfs or Wills that much better than Cleveland, Wilson or Jackson?
If we want a Left Tackle then we should trade back and acquire extra picks and just draft Thomas. He is a 3 year starter in the SEC.
Or do we want a RT who might be a good LT or might be a better guard.
Somebody give me clarity on the best OT to draft at pick 4!!!!
Quote:
In comment 14860955 Milton said:
Quote:
Maybe one day there will be a way we can easily look something like that up, but nowadays we can only guess what round he was drafted in.
yesssss exactly what i said to myself
I was making a point. Holy shit
What was your point exactly? That we should just draft another Dave Diehl in the 5th round? Great idea. Why don't we draft the next Tom Brady in the 6th round while we're at it?
How much better are these 4 guys, who all have some questions and work to do, compared to an Austin Jackson, Josh Jones or Ezra Cleveland who should and may be available at the top of round 2?
Sign me up for OT in Rd 1 and WR in Rd 2 and we can let the defense spend a year gaining experience in the new system before we add more youth to the equation. We still don't know how good or bad are the youngsters on defense that were drafted in 2018 and 2019.
He had all kinds of problems with the really good edge pass rushers, especially the speedy ones like DeMarcus Ware.
How about Shafer Suggs?
If it were that easy, every team would have reliable starting tackles. And yet, they don't. Good tackles are a rarity. A good offensive line is a rarity.
Just because you hit on a couple late round and UDFA's at a position once or twice, doesn't mean you can just do it whenever you want. Thats ridiculous.
If it were that easy, every team would have reliable starting tackles. And yet, they don't. Good tackles are a rarity. A good offensive line is a rarity.
Just because you hit on a couple late round and UDFA's at a position once or twice, doesn't mean you can just do it whenever you want. Thats ridiculous.
Hey Brown,
Give us your can't miss LT prospect in this draft. You have a 25% chance of being correct.
I still haven't had anybody answer the question of who is worth the 4th overall selection.
Simmons is the better player and that is my point.
O Lines are made of 5 players that are not only talented but a scheme fit and are well coached. That is also my point.
For the record if they go tackle I am guessing it will be Wirfs mainly because he comes from a college program that is known for producing viable NFL O Linemen. He is an excellent athlete and will at worst be a pro bowl OG.
We shall see.