Read a tweet from Talkin' Giants about the 2010 team, and it got me thinking about this franchise's what if moments on bad breaks, tough calls, incredible collapses, or unlucky bounces, things where the Giants could have had far better seasons (perhaps Super Bowl-winning ones) if not for one play going horribly wrong.
And then I wondered where the team may have landed if the ball bounced their way.
Long post below (sorry), but if you want, let me know your takes.
Here are 8 off the top of my head since 1985.
1. 1985: What if Sean Landeta didn't whiff on that punt against the Bears in the playoffs?
2. 1988: What if the Giants recover the fumble on the Cris Carter TD to tie the home game vs. Philly? Or really, what if the Giants got the ball after the blocked FG in OT instead of Simmons scoring for PHI?
3. 1989: What if Sheldon White didn't get called for PI in OT vs. the Rams in the playoffs? Or if Collins (who I believe was playing hurt) got a hand on the pass that eventually led to the Flipper TD?
4. 1997: What if Chris Calloway recovered the onside kick v Minnesota?
5. 2001: What if Ron Dixon gets that one final block and scores the Lambuth Special TD vs. Philly in Week 16?
6. 2002: What if the refs called DPI on the 49ers as they should have in the wild card? Or what if Shockey caught the TD?
7. 2005: What if Jay Feely made one of his FG vs. Seattle in the regular season, which would have given the Giants the 1 seed?
8. 2010: What if (insert a 1,000 things that happened in the 4th quarter during the Philly game at home)?
My takes:
1985: Probably still lose that game, although maybe 14-0 instead of 21-0. Bears D too strong.
1988: This is interesting. Giants would have won division and gotten 2 seed. They would have hosted Minnesota in the divisional and then likely San Francisco in the conference title, as SF crushed CHI in the 88 title game in reality.
I see a possibility where the Giants run the table and beat the Bengals in the Super Bowl.
1989: If the Giants get the ball back and eke out a win, they would have gone to SF for the title game.
Maybe a hot take on my part, but as good as that 89 team was (perhaps better than 90), I couldn't see the Giants beating SF in SF that year. That 89 49ers team was too good.
1997: Giants would have gone to Green Bay and gotten crushed. That 97 Packers team was fantastic until the Super Bowl.
2001: Giants would have won the division with a win vs GB and a PHI loss to TB in Week 17.
GB and TB both would have had something to play for in this alternate universe, and to be honest GB was just a better team than NYG that year.
I still think the Giants would have lost even with more motivation (in reality, a 34-25 defeat not as close as score indicates), finished 8-8 and missed catching Philly for East crown.
2002: Giants would have gone to Tampa for the divisional round, and frankly I can't see them doing well on offense vs. that D.
2005: Giants would have gotten the 1, where they would have played Washington (and I think beaten them). Then my guess is they would have beaten Seattle at home but lost to a tough Steelers team in the Super Bowl.
If I recall correctly though, that team was a MASH unit by season's end. A bye week in playoffs could have helped though.
2010: I really think this team could have won it all in what was ultimately a parity-stricken season with no great teams.
They were awesome when everything was clicking. Problem is they'd have these random off-weeks, but the Giants would have been the 2 seed.
Road to Super Bowl that year would have been through ATL, who didn't show up in the playoffs. Super Bowl vs. a very good, not great Steelers team.
Alas, wasn't meant to be.
I'm omitting some obvious what-if moments in broader Giants history because the focus here is on-field while others happened off-field, like LT's suspension in 1988 or Burress in 2008.
But quick takes anyway: Obviously in '88 I think the Giants win one of the two losses that LT missed and that 2008 is better with a healthy Plax but I believe he was slowed all year by injuries.
Giants were the better team.
If I remember correctly, he wouldn't have been at that club had he not been ruled out of the Washington game (late November or so?) due to injury.
So in an alternate universe: What if Burress was good enough to play?
I'm digging deep into memories gone for 12 years but subjectively I remember feeling the wind sort of went out of the team's sails when it happened, even if they beat Carolina for the 1 seed to close the regular season.
Still, that's the best NYG regular-season team I can remember (fan since '95), which is remarkable considering Osi was out all year.
1961: What if Kyle Rote doesn't drop TD pass early in the game? We probably lose 37-7 instead of 37-0. Packers were just too good.
1962: What if recover even one of the 5 Packer fumbles? What if it wasn't so friggin' cold and we could run our offense? I think Green Bay probably still wins.
1963: What if Tittle doesn't get hurt on a cheap shot to the knee? I think we would have won. Giants were the better team.
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They were rolling that season. That plus injuries unraveled what was the best team in the league for most of the season. Repeat was in order.
If I remember correctly, he wouldn't have been at that club had he not been ruled out of the Washington game (late November or so?) due to injury.
So in an alternate universe: What if Burress was good enough to play?
I'm digging deep into memories gone for 12 years but subjectively I remember feeling the wind sort of went out of the team's sails when it happened, even if they beat Carolina for the 1 seed to close the regular season.
Still, that's the best NYG regular-season team I can remember (fan since '95), which is remarkable considering Osi was out all year.
Sorry for double post: I think they reach Super Bowl at minimum with Plax. Game vs. Steelers would have been a potential classic.
I will go to my grave convinced we would have repeated if Plax hadn't shot himself. That was a really good team. We would have handled the Cardinals in the NFC championship. We beat the Steelers in Pittsburgh in the regular season and would have beaten them again.
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I was alive but not a fan yet -- to me that's a really perplexing loss. Season on the line and you're playing at home, but you lose to a mediocre team.
And from what I see on Pro Football Reference, the Giants had to fight just to take a late lead. Link - ( New Window )
The 1988 Giants were super frustrating. Most of the season they were inconsistent. They barely beat a bunch of bad teams (Lions, Falcons, Cowboys). They beat the Redskins due to a missed extra point. They won in Dallas because the officials blew an opening kickoff where the Cowboys returner muffed the ball into the end zone and was tackled for a safety when it should have been a touchback (Giants won 12-10). And they lost games in weird ways (the late bomb to Rice and the blocked LT field goal).
It was after the Saints game that they got really hot. Blowing out the Cardinals and Chiefs going into the Jets game.
They reverted vs. the Jets. The offensive line couldn't block the Bud Carson Jets defense blitzes (Ken Rose who was a replacement player got 3 sacks and a run stuffer in Marty Lyons had 2). The Giants offensive line was in transition at that point as Jumbo was just playing at left tackle. They finally moved Roberts to guard. The Giants fought back to take the lead. But ultimately lost the game because Perry Williams got hurt and they put a special teamer in Tom Flynn to cover Al Toon on the game winning play. I've said on BBI that it was the worst regular season loss in the past 40 years because of how it happened, who it happened against, and the stakes of missing the playoffs with a 10 win team in a open year to win a title.
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What of Carpenter didn't fumble without being touched?
You'll never convince me we could have beaten the Bears that day if Landeta hit a 70 yard punt and Carpenter didn't fumble. I think we were past midfield once in the entire game.
I'm more sick about the defensive holding in the Ravens SB. Not that we would have won that game, but the momentum shift from that play directly impacted it.
As for the SB, I agree 100%. That was a huge momentum shifting play taken off the board. As far as I am concerned, the game ended with that play.
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in 2008 would have been in the bag if Plax never shot himself (slight exaggeration). There are great teams every year that don't win. That team was great but not some all time team.
I don't think it was a gimmee. But, they were the best team in the league at that point. They had other injuries that probably derailed them anyway. But, it would have been fun to see that offense for the rest of the season.
We were 11-1 at one point and demolishing teams weekly.
Then Plax shot himself and the team deflated like a balloon
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What of Carpenter didn't fumble without being touched?
You'll never convince me we could have beaten the Bears that day if Landeta hit a 70 yard punt and Carpenter didn't fumble. I think we were past midfield once in the entire game.
I'm more sick about the defensive holding in the Ravens SB. Not that we would have won that game, but the momentum shift from that play directly impacted it.
That wiffed punt, has it ever happen prior to or since we did it? I don't think so, such an odd play
What if Eli doesn't get out of that Richard Seymour sack, what if Tyree doesn't catch that ball against his damn helmet? What if Bradshaw didn't get that fumble back?
What if Wide Right wasn't Wide Right?
I'm guilty of it myself. I catch myself believing the 2002, 2008, and 2010 Giants all could have gone all the way to the super bowl if not for losing those initial playoff games (or the late reg. season game in 2010's case). But we forget that literally every piece has to fall into place after that to win a super bowl. So often we see seemingly dominant teams get knocked off unexpectedly, there is no guarantee that even the 2008 team would have "definitely" won the super bowl if Plax hadn't shot himself... there's just no way of knowing for sure and the odds are it still would have been technically unlikely.
Let's appreciate the titles that we do have, because they've been pretty fantastic. There are teams that haven't even BEEN to super bowls much less won FOUR of them. I still say 2007, to me at least, makes up for any and every terrible thing that's happened to this team over the years. You live for the great moments, and there is likely no greater moment any sports fan has experienced than NYG fans in SB 42.
2. 1988: More like what would've happened if the beat the Jets? They go to Chicago and all bets were off there. That 88 Bears team wasn't that good - 9ers were a team of destiny that year though and if they beat them, the Bengals were tough.
3. 1989: They play a tough hard fought game in SF and lose like they did in the regular season that year.
4. 1997: They go to GB and get throttled.
5. 2001: ??? That team sucked.
6. 2002: Heartbreaker. This team had a shot :(
7. 2005: This one is a crapshoot. Eli and the team were young. Carolina proved that.
8. 2010: Horrible. Could've been huge.
Don't forget 2008 - Plax. That could've been a VERY special playoff run.
And the other year that EVERYONE always forgets about is 93'. That year, I truly believe they had a shot. LT and Phil Simms' last year, a young team around them with tons of talent (except the WR corps) and a great O-Line. Losing that game to Dallas at the end of the regular season killed them, as did losing to the Cardinals the week before. If they beat the Cowboys there, they would've gotten home field, and I truly believe if they had gotten on a run they would've beaten the Bills for the 2nd time in 4 years. The game in Candlestick was not a measuring stick for that team, as the 49ers were psyched up and played their best football of the season.
I just mentioned that in my reply above. 88' we were terribly inconsistent and lost lots of very tough games - 49ers loss at the start of the season in the final minutes - the Montana to Rice bomb where Kenny Hill and MC ran into each other was a back breaker and I really believe it stayed with them all season.
Who knows what would have happened long term. But that what if sticks in my mind,
1961: What if Kyle Rote doesn't drop TD pass early in the game? We probably lose 37-7 instead of 37-0. Packers were just too good.
1962: What if recover even one of the 5 Packer fumbles? What if it wasn't so friggin' cold and we could run our offense? I think Green Bay probably still wins.
1963: What if Tittle doesn't get hurt on a cheap shot to the knee? I think we would have won. Giants were the better team.
Agree on ‘63.
1963 What if Del Shofner doesn't drop a TD Pass in the End Zone against the Bears. At the time it would have extended the NYG lead to 14-0.
Tyree head catch.....
Manningham catch.....
The Giants and us would feel very different....if the Giants lost 4 of 5, vs winning 4 of 5.
So all things equal out....
If Plaxico didn't shoot himself....could have been 5 of 6😊
I tend to agree with this. Post 2006 most of our success could have gone the other way without the exceptional happening. The teams in the 80s were much better imo and they should not have come down to one play.
I think in the end it all evens out, you get screwed just as much as you get helped. Except for the Superbowl against the Broncos, all of our Superbowls have been defined by one play.
Obligatory "was he no jewles jus regular?" aside, that's really interesting, thanks for posting.
This is a great thread, well done all - especially the guys sharing some of the moments from the 50s and 60s
That's before my time, but my old man groused about the Gifford spot many times over the years.
The one that will always burn me is 2002 in SF...not just the blatant no call (no guarantee we make the FG if given another shot), or Shockey's end zone drop...but DC Johnny Lynn leaving an overmatched Sehorn mostly one on one on TO throughout the second half comeback, without coming up with any adjustments to counter the 49ers comeback.
I don't know how far the 2002 Giants go if we win there, but I know for a fact we were the team nobody wanted to play in those playoffs.
* what if Shubert remembered he was kicking from the hash mark an not the middle? He drilled that ball straight as an arrow into the pipe.
* what if Bobby Johnson catches a perfect TD ball from Simms instead os dropping it?
Parcells siad that in '85 the Bears would probably have beaten them 9 of 10, but that day was the one the Ginats could have won.
1989 was different. Giants were better but by end of season the Niners were really good. No lost ring here.
All other years either the Giants had too many flaws or there was clearly a better team with more momentum.
Knowing how 2007 and 2011 worked out with those playoff runs, I think Giant fans should be satisfied the football gods have helped out some.
As far as the Jet games goes the Giants had the lead very late forced the Jets to punt from deep in their own end and McConkey fumbled the punt. The Jets still had to drive 55 yards to win the game though.
Sometimes it's just not meant to be. I think the 89 team was better. I think the 89 team was better than the 90 team. Sometimes it is just meant to be.
What if the Bucs don't choke away the season allowing Philly to get in?
2002 was the team that found it self and was rolling. The O was near unstopable till Shockey drops one in the endzone. If we never slipped of the gas and crush the 49ers we could have won it all. If we made the kick and pulled it out not so sure.
The 08 team was better than 07.
Those first 10 or 11 games they were easily the best team in the league.
Yes, if Plax was a t an idiot they would have won 2 in a row.
SuperBowl repeat?
Exactly. Kerry turned into jelly like Simon from Airplane 2 under pressure from great defenses. I don't think we wouldve gotten by Tampa in round two
The Niners 2002- Shockey dropping a sure TD in the end zone,
Yes he had an overall great game but still that ball was right in his hands.
Also the cluster F**k field goal attempt.
2010 Giants lose that game at home versus Philly because a bunch of things went against them, and they were unable to make ONE thing happen for themselves. It happens.
Football is a game of inches and bounces, momentum and confidence. One little bounce can go against you and kill you, and it can go in your favor and deliver a championship.
It's part of football.
SuperBowl repeat?
Fair to bring up 87, but IMO the Super Bowl champion “hangover” would have gotten us anyway. My memory of the anecdotal stories is that group spent most of the offseason partying, and I think collectively they wrote (well, had ghost-written) close to a dozen books about the season.
We started off 0-2, losing in Chicago and at home to Dallas, before the strike/replacement player debacle.
It’s certainly possible that team could have caught fire again were it a normal season...that was Carl Banks career year, coming off dominating in the 86 playoffs.
But IMO the Skins were the team that came back with the added intensity and motivation to get them over the top, just like we were in 86
SuperBowl repeat?
yes I forgot about the strike season
2010 Giants lose that game at home versus Philly because a bunch of things went against them, and they were unable to make ONE thing happen for themselves. It happens.
Football is a game of inches and bounces, momentum and confidence. One little bounce can go against you and kill you, and it can go in your favor and deliver a championship.
It's part of football.
All true - and we could play this game with the Pats at length too.
What if the tuck rule doesn't get applied as it did? What if Pete Carroll gives it to Marshawn one more time instead of that dumbass short slant pass on the goal line? What if Kyle Shanahan figured out running the ball is a better way to protect a 28-3 lead?
The Brady/Belichick Pats could be 3-6 in Super Bowls, and have more of an Atlanta Braves legacy that the best dynasty in football history.
Or, what if Welker catches that pass...or Harrison breaks up Tyree's catch...or Brady doesn't fumble when Graham hits him...he could just as easily be 8-1 or 9-0 in Super Bowls.
That was my last cut. I omitted because I'm 99.9 percent sure the Giants lose that game based on how it turned out, whereas I saw at least a glimmer of hope in other scenarios.
But yea, I definitely could have put it on the list and maybe should have. It's too notorious in Giants lore.
My take there is Giants still lose but by 2 scores, not 4.
2. 1988: More like what would've happened if the beat the Jets? They go to Chicago and all bets were off there. That 88 Bears team wasn't that good - 9ers were a team of destiny that year though and if they beat them, the Bengals were tough.
3. 1989: They play a tough hard fought game in SF and lose like they did in the regular season that year.
4. 1997: They go to GB and get throttled.
5. 2001: ??? That team sucked.
6. 2002: Heartbreaker. This team had a shot :(
7. 2005: This one is a crapshoot. Eli and the team were young. Carolina proved that.
8. 2010: Horrible. Could've been huge.
Don't forget 2008 - Plax. That could've been a VERY special playoff run.
And the other year that EVERYONE always forgets about is 93'. That year, I truly believe they had a shot. LT and Phil Simms' last year, a young team around them with tons of talent (except the WR corps) and a great O-Line. Losing that game to Dallas at the end of the regular season killed them, as did losing to the Cardinals the week before. If they beat the Cowboys there, they would've gotten home field, and I truly believe if they had gotten on a run they would've beaten the Bills for the 2nd time in 4 years. The game in Candlestick was not a measuring stick for that team, as the 49ers were psyched up and played their best football of the season.
I just logged onto BBI because I suddenly remembered 1993. Kicking myself now for forgetting that.
So No. 9:
What if Dan Reeves goes for the win instead of, in essence, playing for OT late in the 4th quarter?
I included 88 Eagles over 88 Jets (though Matt in SGS did a great job explaining why that game was so gut-wrenching) because there were two absurd plays that went the Eagles' way but really shouldn't have. Massive momentum swing.
Whereas 88 Jets...actually you could probably say something like what if Ellis didn't get hurt or something.
Giants deserved to lose that one based on how they played for nearly the entire game though, IMHO.
Who knows what would have happened long term. But that what if sticks in my mind,
That's a good one.
2. 1988: More like what would've happened if the beat the Jets? They go to Chicago and all bets were off there. That 88 Bears team wasn't that good - 9ers were a team of destiny that year though and if they beat them, the Bengals were tough.
3. 1989: They play a tough hard fought game in SF and lose like they did in the regular season that year.
4. 1997: They go to GB and get throttled.
5. 2001: ??? That team sucked.
6. 2002: Heartbreaker. This team had a shot :(
7. 2005: This one is a crapshoot. Eli and the team were young. Carolina proved that.
8. 2010: Horrible. Could've been huge.
Don't forget 2008 - Plax. That could've been a VERY special playoff run.
And the other year that EVERYONE always forgets about is 93'. That year, I truly believe they had a shot. LT and Phil Simms' last year, a young team around them with tons of talent (except the WR corps) and a great O-Line. Losing that game to Dallas at the end of the regular season killed them, as did losing to the Cardinals the week before. If they beat the Cowboys there, they would've gotten home field, and I truly believe if they had gotten on a run they would've beaten the Bills for the 2nd time in 4 years. The game in Candlestick was not a measuring stick for that team, as the 49ers were psyched up and played their best football of the season.
I have to disagree on the Niners game in 1993. The only differnce is they would have got blown out at home. Reeves played that game from the fetal position from the first play. That is my all time most despised Giants game.
2010 Giants lose that game at home versus Philly because a bunch of things went against them, and they were unable to make ONE thing happen for themselves. It happens.
Football is a game of inches and bounces, momentum and confidence. One little bounce can go against you and kill you, and it can go in your favor and deliver a championship.
It's part of football.
I think I'm going to do a part II for a new thread later this week about what-ifs the other way.
e.g. Welker in SB 46, Favre's OT pick in 07, Kyle Williams fumble in 11, etc.
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The 1987 team...Suppose there was no strike ruining the season.
SuperBowl repeat?
Fair to bring up 87, but IMO the Super Bowl champion “hangover” would have gotten us anyway. My memory of the anecdotal stories is that group spent most of the offseason partying, and I think collectively they wrote (well, had ghost-written) close to a dozen books about the season.
We started off 0-2, losing in Chicago and at home to Dallas, before the strike/replacement player debacle.
It’s certainly possible that team could have caught fire again were it a normal season...that was Carl Banks career year, coming off dominating in the 86 playoffs.
But IMO the Skins were the team that came back with the added intensity and motivation to get them over the top, just like we were in 86
"dozen books about the season..."
And one of them is the inspiration for my username!
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The 1987 team...Suppose there was no strike ruining the season.
SuperBowl repeat?
yes I forgot about the strike season
LT and Simms and company were still in their prime
YA should have sat down in 1963
1988 we had NO business losing to the Jets..
PS that was my Dad's last game at the Stadium
he was pissed
He called them "The Dummy Giants" that always play down to the opponents level..