NFT: USS Theodore Roosevelt Situation

And unless I want to get banned suffice it to say that yes it got political, and the twitchy-finger mods did the usual suppressive thing.

As opposed to reassignment.

In comment 14862089 Giant John said:

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As opposed to reassignment.

Are you sure? I haven't seen that reported anywhere.

Is a death knell in the Navy. I am a combat veteran, and my cousin has commanded in the Navy. What the commanding officer did, while well intentioned, was a major error in judgment on his part. There have been commanding officers relieved of far less.

You go through the chain of command no matter how shit the situation is. You don’t leak to the media and violate operational security like that. Trust me, I have been in some shit situations. I was in Iraq with a unit that we were provided humvees with freaking canvas doors. (Yeah, they don’t work well against IEDs/ AK-47s). We had to find what scrap metal we could and weld it on to vehicles in hopes that would provide us some protection.

Do you go to the newspaper when you are put in a shit situation like that, or do you go through the chain of command? In the military, it is the former. It is far different than civilian life

in times of crisis the chain of command becomes more important than ever. So work within the structures provided...it is an issue of national security. Can't have enemies with public awareness of concerns effecting one of our most powerful weapons systems used to project force. History is rife with examples of enemies attempting to exploit difficult times for their own benefit.

is no way this thread doesn't get political. I suggest deleting it before members get banned.

You guys need to start using your heads before you post.

In comment 14862098 Torrag said:

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in times of crisis the chain of command becomes more important than ever. So work within the structures provided...it is an issue of national security. Can't have enemies with public awareness of concerns effecting one of our most powerful weapons systems used to project force. History is rife with examples of enemies attempting to exploit difficult times for their own benefit.

Precisely. 100% correct. That said the Secretary of the Navy did himself no favor with his comments

I don’t know the details of the story

Also is the memo he wrote available?

In comment 14862096 KDavies said:

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Is a death knell in the Navy. I am a combat veteran, and my cousin has commanded in the Navy. What the commanding officer did, while well intentioned, was a major error in judgment on his part. There have been commanding officers relieved of far less. You go through the chain of command no matter how shit the situation is. You don’t leak to the media and violate operational security like that. Trust me, I have been in some shit situations. I was in Iraq with a unit that we were provided humvees with freaking canvas doors. (Yeah, they don’t work well against IEDs/ AK-47s). We had to find what scrap metal we could and weld it on to vehicles in hopes that would provide us some protection. Do you go to the newspaper when you are put in a shit situation like that, or do you go through the chain of command? In the military, it is the former. It is far different than civilian life

I don’t think it’s been established that he was the one who leaked it to the media. What he did was send it via email to a number of people in the Navy, many outside he chain of command. It could have been leaked by many people. Certainly he was way outside of protocol in how he sent and disseminated the message. Neither he nor the Navy secretary did themselves any favors in this affair.

it sounds like the allegation is that the captain put too many people on his memo and not that he himself went around the chain of command (or at least that he didn't necessarily go to the press himself). Has anyone seen any reputable details re: how normal or abnormal the memo/email process is? Was this like reply all'ing the entire company dick pics or is there a chance this guy was anywhere within his usual chain of command?

You think issues and information that directly effect the operational readiness of an aircraft carrier should be spread around? That's your answer.

In comment 14862105 Jim in Fairfax said:

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In comment 14862096 KDavies said: Quote: Is a death knell in the Navy. I am a combat veteran, and my cousin has commanded in the Navy. What the commanding officer did, while well intentioned, was a major error in judgment on his part. There have been commanding officers relieved of far less. You go through the chain of command no matter how shit the situation is. You don’t leak to the media and violate operational security like that. Trust me, I have been in some shit situations. I was in Iraq with a unit that we were provided humvees with freaking canvas doors. (Yeah, they don’t work well against IEDs/ AK-47s). We had to find what scrap metal we could and weld it on to vehicles in hopes that would provide us some protection. Do you go to the newspaper when you are put in a shit situation like that, or do you go through the chain of command? In the military, it is the former. It is far different than civilian life I don’t think it’s been established that he was the one who leaked it to the media. What he did was send it via email to a number of people in the Navy, many outside he chain of command. It could have been leaked by many people. Certainly he was way outside of protocol in how he sent and disseminated the message. Neither he nor the Navy secretary did themselves any favors in this affair.

Emailing a bunch of people in the Navy, many who are not in his chain of command, means he is responsible for the leak, whether he did it directly or told a friend who told a friend who told the media.

In comment 14862099 Eric from BBI said:

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is no way this thread doesn't get political. I suggest deleting it before members get banned. You guys need to start using your heads before you post.

Eric I'll delete it if you wish. I didn't see any responses to the first thread. I absolutely have no political agenda here and was interested solely in the military perspective.

This was more my take. The media immediately jumps on stuff like this making it seem like he was slighted or treated harshly. But, they don't view it from the perspective of security or service, which is all that really matters.

There was a really good thread a few days ago about Oakland offering picks to trade with the Giants. Tons of great content but it ended up being deleted because the source was someone who was banned. Now, I think that banning was a bad idea because that individual was a valuable resource but those decisions are above my pay grade. Now, I don’t think the thread ever got nasty or political. That said, many here including me did not know that you are not supposed to:mention this persons name. As though that’s was a crime. Very mature? I don’t think so and I think that kind of stuff diminishes the site.

This was more my take. The media immediately jumps on stuff like this making it seem like he was slighted or treated harshly. But, they don't view it from the perspective of security or service, which is all that really matters.

By the way, it’s highly unlikely that the captain did not go through the chain of command. You are making an assumption. That’s why, the Chief of Naval Operations wanted this tombs investigated which is what you normally do. If you think about why he was demoted or reassigned or fired without an investigation, the reasons are pretty obvious but then this thread would get too political.

In comment 14862124 Samiam said:

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By the way, it’s highly unlikely that the captain did not go through the chain of command. You are making an assumption. That’s why, the Chief of Naval Operations wanted this tombs investigated which is what you normally do. If you think about why he was demoted or reassigned or fired without an investigation, the reasons are pretty obvious but then this thread would get too political.

That is completely contrary to the reported facts. It is not “going through the chain of command” if you send an email to someone in your chain of command, plus many others not in your chain of command. That completely undermines the whole purpose of a chain of command. He is responsible for the email getting leaked. You have no clue what kind of high security measures someone in his position is required to keep.

What if he went through his immediate bosses and others in the chain of command? And what if he was ignored and believed that the lives of his sailors were in danger (which I believe was in the letter). I’m not saying he’s right or wrong. I’m saying there should have been an investigation which’, by the way, those in his chain of command requested be done. The action taken unilaterally by the Sec of the Navy ( I think Acting Sec) actually undermines the chain of command which seems par for the course in the Navy lately.

That he ignored his chain of command
That he sent a blast Email to 20-30 individuals
That he leaked it to the media.

As a matter of fact, prior to Modley taking his command he stated this:

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Modly said on Wednesday. “The fact that he wrote the letter to his chain of command to express his concerns would absolutely not result in any type of retaliation.”

There is proof that he used an unsecured method of sending it.

In comment 14862118 Samiam said:

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There was a really good thread a few days ago about Oakland offering picks to trade with the Giants. Tons of great content but it ended up being deleted because the source was someone who was banned. Now, I think that banning was a bad idea because that individual was a valuable resource but those decisions are above my pay grade. Now, I don’t think the thread ever got nasty or political. That said, many here including me did not know that you are not supposed to:mention this persons name. As though that’s was a crime. Very mature? I don’t think so and I think that kind of stuff diminishes the site.

With all due respect, you have no idea what goes on behind the scenes. It's a legal issue.

Straight up, do you want me to delete this thread in its current state?

he should be a villain in a Tom Clancy movie. The Harrison Ford ones. He’s got that simpering government stooge look.

Modly also criticized Crozier's decision to send the letter over non-secure, unclassified system. "He decided to send an email and copy that email to a large list of other people who were not in the chain of command, and sent it up also through the chain of command skipping people in the chain of command," Modly said. According to Modly, there are "other ships that are out there in the Pacific that are now perhaps on higher standard of alert because our adversaries in the region think that one of our warships might be crippled, which it's not."


Link - ( New Window )

that the Secretary of the Navy's speech to the sailors leaked to the press?

Do you think that a aircraft carrier docks unexpectedly in a small port and the bad guys don’t know it. They have satellites same as we do. The reason the Sec Navy did what he did was pretty obvious I think but to get into it would cause problems. Did you not find it odd that he flew 8000 miles to spend 30 minutes on the TR and did not meet any sailors? And next day he’s resigned..

In comment 14862153 Matt M. said:

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that the Secretary of the Navy's speech to the sailors leaked to the press?

Modly’s speech is not remotely close to the commanding officer’s email in terms of operational security issues.

Modly has handled this extremely poorly. Having served, I am flabbergasted he even gave the speech. He owed no explanation to the ship’s sailors as to why their commanding officer was relieved. COs change all the time. I have never had a speech like that explaining why a CO was relieved of duty. Just bizarre behavior by Modly.

Someone attacks a US warship?

Honest question.

In comment 14862153 Matt M. said:

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that the Secretary of the Navy's speech to the sailors leaked to the press?

In that case he’s speaking in front of thousands of enlisted men. You can’t possibly have an expectation what you say won’t get leaked. He was an idiot for even being there, and more so for what he said.

In comment 14862117 Matt M. said:

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This was more my take. The media immediately jumps on stuff like this making it seem like he was slighted or treated harshly. But, they don't view it from the perspective of security or service, which is all that really matters.

The main reason he was relieved of duties was because he endangered his crew and ship. When he told the world of the infections, he announced to everyone that the ship may not have enough healthy personnel to defend itself, making it look like a potential sitting duck to our adversaries. Simply a matter of national security...even if he's seen as hero to his crew.

In comment 14862168 ron mexico said:

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Someone attacks a US warship? Honest question.

Ever hear of theUSS Cole? The Russians aren’t going to, but a Terrorist group certainly would if the they had the opportunity.

In comment 14862167 KDavies said:

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In comment 14862153 Matt M. said: Quote: that the Secretary of the Navy's speech to the sailors leaked to the press? Modly’s speech is not remotely close to the commanding officer’s email in terms of operational security issues. Modly has handled this extremely poorly. Having served, I am flabbergasted he even gave the speech. He owed no explanation to the ship’s sailors as to why their commanding officer was relieved. COs change all the time. I have never had a speech like that explaining why a CO was relieved of duty. Just bizarre behavior by Modly.

Agree 100%. I also am a Navy vet and that was really poorly handled

In comment 14862169 Jim in Fairfax said:

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In comment 14862153 Matt M. said: Quote: that the Secretary of the Navy's speech to the sailors leaked to the press? In that case he’s speaking in front of thousands of enlisted men. You can’t possibly have an expectation what you say won’t get leaked. He was an idiot for even being there, and more so for what he said.

It's obviously not as big in terms of a security breach. But, again speaking as a civilian having not served, I would think it is a very reasonable expectation that his speech to the crew would not be leaked. This was not a public, PR speech. It was intended solely for the crew. Isn't whoever leaked it out of line?

is there any scenario you can envision where going outside the direct chain of command but staying within the larger chain is warranted? This hypothetical is assuming he wasn't the one who went public and it's provable that wasn't his intent when sending (fully aware we don't know the latter to be the case).

In comment 14862168 ron mexico said:

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Someone attacks a US warship? Honest question.

Not really but the military doesn't have the luxury to think like that. They have to take the position that it could go down at any time.

In comment 14862168 ron mexico said:

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Someone attacks a US warship? Honest question.

Is that a serious question? Less than eighty years ago, we had more than 20 ships attacked. We had the USS Cole attacked 20 years ago

Chain of command is pretty much the lynchpin of the military. You don’t have to like it but you sure as shit have to follow it. If the captain doesn’t support the coc then who will? Also, what’s going on aboard a CVN is hardly public information. Those carrier groups are the keystone of most US military and foreign policy, the very hint one may be impaired is dangerous. This really wasn’t a close call.

I’ll say this too, it boggles my mind that someone could achieve that level of command and make such an egregious error of basic judgement.

In comment 14862170 GMen72 said:

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In comment 14862117 Matt M. said: Quote: This was more my take. The media immediately jumps on stuff like this making it seem like he was slighted or treated harshly. But, they don't view it from the perspective of security or service, which is all that really matters. The main reason he was relieved of duties was because he endangered his crew and ship. When he told the world of the infections, he announced to everyone that the ship may not have enough healthy personnel to defend itself, making it look like a potential sitting duck to our adversaries. Simply a matter of national security...even if he's seen as hero to his crew.

What if he didn't tell the world? What if he sent it to his chain of command and someone there leaked it?

No one has seen any proof of what the ex-navy sec claimed in that leaked recording. As I mentioned above just days ago this was what then acting Navy Sec. stated:

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Modly said on Wednesday. “The fact that he wrote the letter to his chain of command to express his concerns would absolutely not result in any type of retaliation.”

All of a sudden that got changed a few days later

Since WW2? If yes, I must have missed it. This thread is becoming silly. To my point, whatever the captain did should have resulted in an investigation. Everyone in his chain of command agreed that that was the case. At the end of the investigation, if it determined that he be demoted or fired, that’s fine. But, what the Sec Navy did was bypass the chain of command and Navy procedures that govern adverse actions and that’s not only wrong, it will discourage other commanders from doing the right thing ( in my opinion) to not embarrass politicians. In this case, sailors might die unnecessarily and that was his point.

In comment 14862182 Eric on Li said:

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is there any scenario you can envision where going outside the direct chain of command but staying within the larger chain is warranted? This hypothetical is assuming he wasn't the one who went public and it's provable that wasn't his intent when sending (fully aware we don't know the latter to be the case).

You are really only permitted to go outside the chain of command (to a higher rank than your direct report) if you have an illegal order. There is no such thing in this situation. I could never have imagined going over my direct reports head.

In comment 14862198 Samiam said:

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Since WW2? If yes, I must have missed it. This thread is becoming silly. To my point, whatever the captain did should have resulted in an investigation. Everyone in his chain of command agreed that that was the case. At the end of the investigation, if it determined that he be demoted or fired, that’s fine. But, what the Sec Navy did was bypass the chain of command and Navy procedures that govern adverse actions and that’s not only wrong, it will discourage other commanders from doing the right thing ( in my opinion) to not embarrass politicians. In this case, sailors might die unnecessarily and that was his point.

Certainly the Falklands War.

he should have kept it in house and not send out 27 messages to many individuals

send emails outside his chain that he probably knew would go public. My guess is he did not feel he was getting what he considered the proper concern for his crew. He was wrong to do so.

SecNav Modly was wrong to bypass the chain of command himself outwardly(although he has the authority to do so). I'd bet a series of 3 and 4 star admirals probably got their noses out of joint on that. He should have discretely relieved Crozier, through one of his Admirals(Task Force, 7th Fleet or CinCPac or CNO). Then speaking directly to the crew using demeaning language about Captain Crozier was uncalled for. I'll bet he was disturbed when the crew cheered Crozier as he disembarked and wanted to nip it quickly. Dollars to doughnuts, Modly lost respect throughout the entire Navy.
Note: was not active duty, merely reserve but a merchant captain.

We can wait until the fact base comes in but until then, Im going with a very and too thin skinned Asst.Sec of the Navy is part of the problem

Id be remiss in not submitting conjecture that slow and bad decisions that did not focus on the sailors trapped without access to medical care for a spreading disease somehow had Modlys name, if not the carrier group Rear Admirals name all over them. Or Both

In article linked below.
TR COC CF Timeline - ( New Window )

In comment 14862208 section125 said:

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send emails outside his chain that he probably knew would go public. My guess is he did not feel he was getting what he considered the proper concern for his crew. He was wrong to do so. SecNav Modly was wrong to bypass the chain of command himself outwardly(although he has the authority to do so). I'd bet a series of 3 and 4 star admirals probably got their noses out of joint on that. He should have discretely relieved Crozier, through one of his Admirals(Task Force, 7th Fleet or CinCPac or CNO). Then speaking directly to the crew using demeaning language about Captain Crozier was uncalled for. I'll bet he was disturbed when the crew cheered Crozier as he disembarked and wanted to nip it quickly. Dollars to doughnuts, Modly lost respect throughout the entire Navy. Note: was not active duty, merely reserve but a merchant captain.

Agree completely. Well said. Neither one was right in what they did, but at least I can understand the Crozier’s motives. He cared for his sailors. Modly’s actions in his speech were just bizarre.

In comment 14862185 KDavies said:

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In comment 14862168 ron mexico said: Quote: Someone attacks a US warship? Honest question. Is that a serious question? Less than eighty years ago, we had more than 20 ships attacked. We had the USS Cole attacked 20 years ago

Yes, I’m not really a history buff. U.S.S. cole is a good example of something that could happen again.

My other question would be did he try the proper protocols first before sending the unsecured memo.

In comment 14862216 trueblueinpw said:

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In article linked below. TR COC CF Timeline - ( New Window )

Great article! Thanks for that. Will read it more in-depth when less tired. How could Crozier expect to not get removed from command for this?

“Crozier sends an unclassified 4-page memo via unclassified email to 20 or 30 Navy people, including his staff and leaders inside and outside his chain of command. Attached to an email that begins, “Dear Fellow Naval Aviators,” the memo asks for urgent approval and help in executing his proposal to remove all but 10 percent of his crew from the ship, lest sailors die “unnecessarily.” “

In comment 14862205 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 14862198 Samiam said: Quote: Since WW2? If yes, I must have missed it. This thread is becoming silly. To my point, whatever the captain did should have resulted in an investigation. Everyone in his chain of command agreed that that was the case. At the end of the investigation, if it determined that he be demoted or fired, that’s fine. But, what the Sec Navy did was bypass the chain of command and Navy procedures that govern adverse actions and that’s not only wrong, it will discourage other commanders from doing the right thing ( in my opinion) to not embarrass politicians. In this case, sailors might die unnecessarily and that was his point. Certainly the Falklands War.

Good call, I forgot about that one

In comment 14862221 ron mexico said:

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In comment 14862185 KDavies said: Quote: In comment 14862168 ron mexico said: Quote: Someone attacks a US warship? Honest question. Is that a serious question? Less than eighty years ago, we had more than 20 ships attacked. We had the USS Cole attacked 20 years ago Yes, I’m not really a history buff. U.S.S. cole is a good example of something that could happen again. My other question would be did he try the proper protocols first before sending the unsecured memo.

Yes, he did. But the rear admirals (naval equivalent of general) in his direct report favored less extreme mitigation efforts than he did. At that point, you salute, say yes sir, and fo your job the best you can.

In comment 14862223 KDavies said:

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In comment 14862216 trueblueinpw said: Quote: In article linked below. TR COC CF Timeline - ( New Window ) Great article! Thanks for that. Will read it more in-depth when less tired. How could Crozier expect to not get removed from command for this? “Crozier sends an unclassified 4-page memo via unclassified email to 20 or 30 Navy people, including his staff and leaders inside and outside his chain of command. Attached to an email that begins, “Dear Fellow Naval Aviators,” the memo asks for urgent approval and help in executing his proposal to remove all but 10 percent of his crew from the ship, lest sailors die “unnecessarily.” “

Happy to help. For those that know, the most head scratching thing here is the captain’s judgement. It’s like death by cop for a Naval career. Do not understand how he thought that was gonna play any different than it did. And you do not assume that command without plenty of friends and a well connected back channel. Tbh, I have zero no problem with acting secnav comments either. Not the hardest words I ever heard on the deck of a ship, but not the most polished either I suppose. This virus does some crazy stuff to us - made me cry like Mary without her lamb - so - not judging. Anyway...

Are alums of my alma mater, I started a thread yesterday talking about the stark differences between these two men. However, it was promptly deleted by the mods, so I assumed it was too political.

Before this one also gets deleted, there have been many discussions I have had as well as witnessed amongst not only Naval Academy grads but just service members and veterans as well as civilians. While the Captain was in the wrong to send off the letter knowing that it would most likely end up in the media, he took ownership of his actions. His career is over. What the acting Secretary of the Navy did in relieving the Captain was one thing that can definitely have disagreements on; however, his speech to the TR crew was just unacceptable and completely made him unfit to be the head of the Navy. And he knew it last night that he had lost the respect of majority of the sailors he was in charge of as the service secretary.

In comment 14862233 trueblueinpw said:

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In comment 14862223 KDavies said: Quote: In comment 14862216 trueblueinpw said: Quote: In article linked below. TR COC CF Timeline - ( New Window ) Great article! Thanks for that. Will read it more in-depth when less tired. How could Crozier expect to not get removed from command for this? “Crozier sends an unclassified 4-page memo via unclassified email to 20 or 30 Navy people, including his staff and leaders inside and outside his chain of command. Attached to an email that begins, “Dear Fellow Naval Aviators,” the memo asks for urgent approval and help in executing his proposal to remove all but 10 percent of his crew from the ship, lest sailors die “unnecessarily.” “ Happy to help. For those that know, the most head scratching thing here is the captain’s judgement. It’s like death by cop for a Naval career. Do not understand how he thought that was gonna play any different than it did. And you do not assume that command without plenty of friends and a well connected back channel. Tbh, I have zero no problem with acting secnav comments either. Not the hardest words I ever heard on the deck of a ship, but not the most polished either I suppose. This virus does some crazy stuff to us - made me cry like Mary without her lamb - so - not judging. Anyway...

Your take on Modly's speech focus on the manner of his speech rather than the content and context and the audience. He flew 8000 miles to lecture the sailors then took off within 30 minutes. He admonished the Captain of using poor judgement born of emotions, yet his entire actions were born of emotions and stupidity (why would he ever assume that his speech wouldn't be made public?). Also, his PAO team knew that he fucked up because they tried to save him by sending out a memo to prevent the speech from going public as well (one of his PAO is my classmate); however, all it did was make the situation even worse.

In the end, Crozier was wrong, and his career is over. But he will be viewed favorably by his peers and those in uniform. Modly will be the butt of a joke for a bit.

I know its a problem a waste but will turn in after this. I agree with the comments by RC in MD. I also thought that Espers comments early in the article were revealing. He didnt want anything or anyone contradicting the party line coming out of Washington. It had little to do with the
safely of the sailors and more to do with optics and not getting someone angry. I could see the reaction of those in the chain of command, the rear admirals, more interested in their careers as well as the Sec than anything else. You can disobey a command when youre asked to do something illegal. Is it a reach to think he was attempting to save the lives of sailors under his command? Whether you agree or not, go thru a proper & thorough investigation (unless they were afraid of what they might find)

In comment 14862096 KDavies said:

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Do you go to the newspaper when you are put in a shit situation like that, or do you go through the chain of command? In the military, it is the former. It is far different than civilian life

Not trying to be an ass, I had to look this up myself your former should actually be latter: former (f=first), latter (l=last).

In comment 14862216 trueblueinpw said:

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In article linked below. TR COC CF Timeline - ( New Window )

This was very interesting. It seems at different points the official stance changed over whether he followed the chain of command.

Seems like one guy was willing to put his career on the line to protect his crew, and other guy was Jeremy Pivens in Old School.

Take a guess who history will treat more kindly.

In comment 14862242 Samiam said:

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I know its a problem a waste but will turn in after this. I agree with the comments by RC in MD. I also thought that Espers comments early in the article were revealing. He didnt want anything or anyone contradicting the party line coming out of Washington. It had little to do with the safely of the sailors and more to do with optics and not getting someone angry. I could see the reaction of those in the chain of command, the rear admirals, more interested in their careers as well as the Sec than anything else. You can disobey a command when youre asked to do something illegal. Is it a reach to think he was attempting to save the lives of sailors under his command? Whether you agree or not, go thru a proper & thorough investigation (unless they were afraid of what they might find)

I respectfully think you are pushing an agenda and have been, throughout. I think that was probably the lowest of low on the order of precedence for actions taken. Plainly, and I think perhaps RC will agree as well as other former service members, the failure was disregard for chain of command and it was true for both SecNav as well as Capt Crozier. Obviously Capt Crozier's had a major violation of procedure, while SecNav did have the authority to relieve Capt Crozier. It was the manor of said relief that was his mistake.
I am sure Capt Crozier was given instructions from his immediate superior and he disagreed with that order and maybe went above that superior to Fleet Command. Not getting the action he wanted Crozier "went nuclear," knowing full well he would be admonished and relieved. While I respect that he had his crews' well being at heart, his actions were simply wrong. While maybe the Navy did not react with the speed Capt Crozier wanted, I seriously doubt that they were leaving that ship to fend for itself. I'm sure there was a contingency plan in order, a procedure.

Eventually the story will emerge. SecNav Modly overreacted, maybe because he didn't want to look impotent to SecDef Esper or lost sight of his role. Whatever the reason, it looked as bad as what Crozier did, worse in my view. Crozier's intentions were to protect his crew. Modly's appear to be to slap down a perceived insubordination and abandoning his chain of command. A ship Captain cannot ignore instructions from superiors without damaging/weakening the fleet. The SecNav cannot appear to be too invested in what surely could have been handled in the Pacific. And then to fly out to personally speak to the crew? Bad look. Again, if this is something needed to gain control of the crew (which I seriously doubt), the Task Force Commander could have done that, not SecNav. If he went out to reassure the crew, he should have spoken with the XO, Division Officers, Senior Enlisted and Air Wing Command, not admonish the former Captain. But maybe I'm wrong.

This is MHO and I concede that I am speculating.

some comments about the Modly speech. Anyone from the navy can correct me if I misunderstood, but several Navy sailors piped in that the main comm channel he spoke on (MC1 I think they called it that is like a loudspeaker to the whole Carrier) is a very formal thing. You get in trouble just for using any language that deviates from the specific professional announcement protocols. Sailors hear them routinely and so know both the expected language and how seriously it is taken.

So Modly flies out and addresses them over it in what most there considered hearing it to be an unprofessional way. It was jarring to them. A guy said a friend texted him about it and he thought “on MC1. No way...” Modly called the Captain naïve and stupid for thinking it wouldn’t get out. Meanwhile he’s being the same for thinking that of his own speech. Then he also basically says stop whining. And tells them to care for their sailors like their own family and consider what’s best for them first, as he replaced a guy who seemingly did just that. Sailors can be heard saying “wtf” while listening.

Cozier might have been wrong, but I suspect he was neither naive nor stupid, but sacrificed his career for his people who he believed were being put in harms way unnecessarily.

I also think the idea that we couldn’t treat these people that are serving their country because if the ship wasn’t active we’d be instantly attacked is vastly overstated. “One ship is docking for a few days, quick start a conventional war with the US...” I think the fact that we had several ships collide over the last few years is a bigger invitation to F with us as a statement about our readiness than a ship stopping to get sick people treated. This was just handled poorly.

Were happy the captain chose saving lives and health over proper navy protocol, the captain acted like a wartime leader......putting his crew first. A hero.

In comment 14862265 Daniel in MI said:

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some comments about the Modly speech. Anyone from the navy can correct me if I misunderstood, but several Navy sailors piped in that the main comm channel he spoke on (MC1 I think they called it that is like a loudspeaker to the whole Carrier) is a very formal thing. You get in trouble just for using any language that deviates from the specific professional announcement protocols. Sailors hear them routinely and so know both the expected language and how seriously it is taken. So Modly flies out and addresses them over it in what most there considered hearing it to be an unprofessional way. It was jarring to them. A guy said a friend texted him about it and he thought “on MC1. No way...” Modly called the Captain naïve and stupid for thinking it wouldn’t get out. Meanwhile he’s being the same for thinking that of his own speech. Then he also basically says stop whining. And tells them to care for their sailors like their own family and consider what’s best for them first, as he replaced a guy who seemingly did just that. Sailors can be heard saying “wtf” while listening. Cozier might have been wrong, but I suspect he was neither naive nor stupid, but sacrificed his career for his people who he believed were being put in harms way unnecessarily. I also think the idea that we couldn’t treat these people that are serving their country because if the ship wasn’t active we’d be instantly attacked is vastly overstated. “One ship is docking for a few days, quick start a conventional war with the US...” I think the fact that we had several ships collide over the last few years is a bigger invitation to F with us as a statement about our readiness than a ship stopping to get sick people treated. This was just handled poorly.

I was a Sonar Tech on a Frigate. It was a daily joke to get on the MC1 and do Professor Beaker from Sesame Street (it was the 80's what can I say).

The other thing to keep in mind is a Carrier is assigned a Carrier Strike group. That group consists of usually 1-2 CG's which are Guided Missle Cruisers. A Destroyer Squadron which runs the picket for the Carrier. 1-2 Attack Subs that assist the DG's. An Air Wing that consists of multiple squadrons. And a Supply ship.

The Carrier sits in the middle of that and other ships will actually take a strike aimed for the Carrier. Priority one is protecting the Carrier

In comment 14862119 Matt M. said:

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This was more my take. The media immediately jumps on stuff like this making it seem like he was slighted or treated harshly. But, they don't view it from the perspective of security or service, which is all that really matters.

By blaming the media, you just made it political. See how easy it is and you were the one who started the thread thinking it shouldn't be political. It's a slippery slope. You should probably delete before you get yourself banned.

We have literally 2 pages of some of the more informative stuff I have ever read on the perspectives from people who have served. Please don’t even reference the “p” word, doing so is clearly evidence of an intent. Just enjoy the perspective you were able to obtain and move on to another thread if you are going to attempt to conjure offense when there is none to have.

In comment 14862288 bhill410 said:

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We have literally 2 pages of some of the more informative stuff I have ever read on the perspectives from people who have served. Please don’t even reference the “p” word, doing so is clearly evidence of an intent. Just enjoy the perspective you were able to obtain and move on to another thread if you are going to attempt to conjure offense when there is none to have.

I wasn't conjuring offense, I was just pointing out that he began by asking for perspective from those in service and then he shifted to blaming the media for the controversy. Blaming the media is a political football that triggers all kinds of back and forth between each side of the debate (with all due respect!).

In comment 14862242 Samiam said:

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I know its a problem a waste but will turn in after this. I agree with the comments by RC in MD. I also thought that Espers comments early in the article were revealing. He didnt want anything or anyone contradicting the party line coming out of Washington. It had little to do with the safely of the sailors and more to do with optics and not getting someone angry. I could see the reaction of those in the chain of command, the rear admirals, more interested in their careers as well as the Sec than anything else. You can disobey a command when youre asked to do something illegal. Is it a reach to think he was attempting to save the lives of sailors under his command? Whether you agree or not, go thru a proper & thorough investigation (unless they were afraid of what they might find)

There is a huge difference between refusing to obey an illegal order and refusing to obey an order that you think puts the welfare or lives of some of your sailors in danger. While the coronavirus is dangerous, it overwhelmingly kills the older, and the vulnerable with underlying health conditions. The bulk of those conditions, you are not allowed in the military if you have them.

When you sign up for the military, you are putting your life on the line for your country. Not just in wartime. There are many training exercises which result in death. There are many peacetime exercises the public has no clue about and the military is not allowed to disclose their purpose for security reasons.

I am not the least bit surprised that the rear admiral and highers refused to cut the majority of the crew on an aircraft carrier. That would have greatly effected the mission not only of the Teddy Roosevelt, but Likely of other Ships/planes as well. While the coronavirus is new, following orders and sacrificing self for mission is not.

It may sound cold, but it’s the reality of the situation and a large reason why much of the public is lauding the Captain as a hero. Having never served, and having no knowledge of the military, they see the Captain as merely trying to save his sailor’s lives. They see the sailors cheering for him. In reality, that means nothing. I’ve seen plenty of bad officers who were well loved by those who he was in charge of. I’ve seen plenty of great officers who were hated by those they were in charge of. You are not put in charge of soldiers or sailors to be the fun dad. You are put in charge to get the mission done. Yes, it is important to take care of your soldiers and sailors, but not at the expense of the mission

In comment 14862267 thrunthrublue said:

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Were happy the captain chose saving lives and health over proper navy protocol, the captain acted like a wartime leader......putting his crew first. A hero.

Tell that to Commander Evans of the USS Johnston...

While I understand the management policy of not permitting political discussions, the folks who set and enforce this do have a point of view that does line up with a particular camp in our unfortunately over-polarized world.

"The media" is a tell of that camp. It is tolerated. I don't believe (at least I hope not) that it is conscious. That's what makes it a tell.

I've read enough here and take it from a Vietnam vet 1965-67. The military will handle it the way they choose to do so, the way they've always done it. So ease up with all of the BS.

Exactly the point.

KDavies...great posts.


Evaluating this through the eyes of mission and the rules of one of the worlds great institutions is not only the only way but it is far from the norms rightfully used in civilian life.

Nor is thinking through how to handle an outbreak on a carrier that easier ( besides the obvious of flying the ppe, meds, tests and doctors into the carrier).

Do we take the planes and pilots out of commission? What are the risks and consequences of skipping a rotation off the vital shipping routes of Asia? Protect Japan and SK and Singapore much less the Straits of Malacca?

Only a handful of nations have the firepower and accuracy to outperform a single carrier force. There are only so many a available in each ocean. With all due respect to caring for our men, it's just not that simple to match mission and compassion. If a commander cannot handle a bounded multi objective situation then he is operating machinery that is too complex for him.

In comment 14862299 KDavies said:

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In comment 14862242 Samiam said: Quote: I know its a problem a waste but will turn in after this. I agree with the comments by RC in MD. I also thought that Espers comments early in the article were revealing. He didnt want anything or anyone contradicting the party line coming out of Washington. It had little to do with the safely of the sailors and more to do with optics and not getting someone angry. I could see the reaction of those in the chain of command, the rear admirals, more interested in their careers as well as the Sec than anything else. You can disobey a command when youre asked to do something illegal. Is it a reach to think he was attempting to save the lives of sailors under his command? Whether you agree or not, go thru a proper & thorough investigation (unless they were afraid of what they might find) There is a huge difference between refusing to obey an illegal order and refusing to obey an order that you think puts the welfare or lives of some of your sailors in danger. While the coronavirus is dangerous, it overwhelmingly kills the older, and the vulnerable with underlying health conditions. The bulk of those conditions, you are not allowed in the military if you have them. When you sign up for the military, you are putting your life on the line for your country. Not just in wartime. There are many training exercises which result in death. There are many peacetime exercises the public has no clue about and the military is not allowed to disclose their purpose for security reasons. I am not the least bit surprised that the rear admiral and highers refused to cut the majority of the crew on an aircraft carrier. That would have greatly effected the mission not only of the Teddy Roosevelt, but Likely of other Ships/planes as well. While the coronavirus is new, following orders and sacrificing self for mission is not. It may sound cold, but it’s the reality of the situation and a large reason why much of the public is lauding the Captain as a hero. Having never served, and having no knowledge of the military, they see the Captain as merely trying to save his sailor’s lives. They see the sailors cheering for him. In reality, that means nothing. I’ve seen plenty of bad officers who were well loved by those who he was in charge of. I’ve seen plenty of great officers who were hated by those they were in charge of. You are not put in charge of soldiers or sailors to be the fun dad. You are put in charge to get the mission done. Yes, it is important to take care of your soldiers and sailors, but not at the expense of the mission

This. Thanks

Means Modly isnt way off as a person and off to be in this job.

He, way more than Crozier damaged the credibility of civilian leadership and progress of the institution ( which does self learn and self evaluate) towards being better able to respond to health crisis aboard a vital naval ship.

Imo

should be reinstated.

Now.

In comment 14862299 KDavies said:

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In comment 14862242 Samiam said: Quote: I know its a problem a waste but will turn in after this. I agree with the comments by RC in MD. I also thought that Espers comments early in the article were revealing. He didnt want anything or anyone contradicting the party line coming out of Washington. It had little to do with the safely of the sailors and more to do with optics and not getting someone angry. I could see the reaction of those in the chain of command, the rear admirals, more interested in their careers as well as the Sec than anything else. You can disobey a command when youre asked to do something illegal. Is it a reach to think he was attempting to save the lives of sailors under his command? Whether you agree or not, go thru a proper & thorough investigation (unless they were afraid of what they might find) There is a huge difference between refusing to obey an illegal order and refusing to obey an order that you think puts the welfare or lives of some of your sailors in danger. While the coronavirus is dangerous, it overwhelmingly kills the older, and the vulnerable with underlying health conditions. The bulk of those conditions, you are not allowed in the military if you have them. When you sign up for the military, you are putting your life on the line for your country. Not just in wartime. There are many training exercises which result in death. There are many peacetime exercises the public has no clue about and the military is not allowed to disclose their purpose for security reasons. I am not the least bit surprised that the rear admiral and highers refused to cut the majority of the crew on an aircraft carrier. That would have greatly effected the mission not only of the Teddy Roosevelt, but Likely of other Ships/planes as well. While the coronavirus is new, following orders and sacrificing self for mission is not. It may sound cold, but it’s the reality of the situation and a large reason why much of the public is lauding the Captain as a hero. Having never served, and having no knowledge of the military, they see the Captain as merely trying to save his sailor’s lives. They see the sailors cheering for him. In reality, that means nothing. I’ve seen plenty of bad officers who were well loved by those who he was in charge of. I’ve seen plenty of great officers who were hated by those they were in charge of. You are not put in charge of soldiers or sailors to be the fun dad. You are put in charge to get the mission done. Yes, it is important to take care of your soldiers and sailors, but not at the expense of the mission

Very well said KDavies. Many people do not understand following a set of rules (or rules with in rules as the military has)

I agree that both of these men went about their agenda's in the wrong way. The military Chain of Command has many branches and avenues, it seems he just chose not to completely use one of those paths.

I will add, anyone who thinks the US is not volnurable to attack may want to look back in history of the other Super Power countries that have existed. Attacks do not have to be force on force, especially in todays world.

In comment 14862343 Bill2 said:

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Means Modly isnt way off as a person and off to be in this job. He, way more than Crozier damaged the credibility of civilian leadership and progress of the institution ( which does self learn and self evaluate) towards being better able to respond to health crisis aboard a vital naval ship. Imo

I agree that Modly’s actions were awful and he should have resigned.

I don’t know that he damaged the credibility of civilian leadership, however. He was a Naval officer for seven years before going into the private sector. But I don’t think that this will become an argument of civilian vs military leadership of the military. I can’t imagine that being used as fodder for that debate (as seen in the Gen. Mattis confirmation hearings).

I think Modly really only damaged his own credibility.

Great counterpoint to my flawed comment.

At least when i served the principle of civilian oversight was rock solid accepted and a foundation. I'm sure it's the same.

Imo, going foward:

The four, three and any stars will double down on keeping things by the book and in the shop. While respecting that the institutions serve the Republic.

Two, like you. I think Modly will be considered to have flopped and failed - and considered an exception to the general competence of civilian leadership

Was resigning quickly and walking away

In comment 14862350 KDavies said:

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In comment 14862343 Bill2 said: Quote: Means Modly isnt way off as a person and off to be in this job. He, way more than Crozier damaged the credibility of civilian leadership and progress of the institution ( which does self learn and self evaluate) towards being better able to respond to health crisis aboard a vital naval ship. Imo I agree that Modly’s actions were awful and he should have resigned. I don’t know that he damaged the credibility of civilian leadership, however. He was a Naval officer for seven years before going into the private sector. But I don’t think that this will become an argument of civilian vs military leadership of the military. I can’t imagine that being used as fodder for that debate (as seen in the Gen. Mattis confirmation hearings). I think Modly really only damaged his own credibility.

Good point KDavies. Just as Captain Crozier was fully qualified to be assigned as Captain having passed through rigorous training, successful prior assignments and commands previously. Modly likewise must have had a successful naval and private career that passed severe scrutiny. But even the most scrupulous of interviews and evaluations sometimes fail to uncover personal faults of candidates. There have been failures before and there will be failures again. Men and machinery fail at inopportune times no matter how rigorous the testing or stellar the past history.

Could have been surrounded by greater situational simplicity, certainty and by greater competency during his time in our helicopter units.

In comment 14862358 Bill2 said:

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Was resigning quickly and walking away

Agreed 100%. And as Section states, I don’t doubt that Capt. Crozier had a strong career and served his country well and admirably as an officer. He graduated the Naval Academy in 1992, so has been serving since 1988. 32 years. You don’t get to command an aircraft carrier without being highly accomplished and among the best of the best. While he did make a huge mistake, and one that Modly was completely justified in removing Crozier from command, Modly’s comments were wholly unbecoming. As someone alluded to above, things could have, and should have, been handled a lot more professionally by Modly.

In comment 14862371 Bill2 said:

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Could have been surrounded by greater situational simplicity, certainty and by greater competency during his time in our helicopter units.

Now that you bring that up, I have heard some criticism that Modly “didn’t know what it was like commanding a ship,” so maybe you can consider that as criticism of the civilian leadership of the military. I guess I was thinking more in the confirmation process where I see the debate most.

I see Modly just acting in a rogue manner (not in the fact that he removed Crozier, but in his actions surrounding it). Having served 7 years as an officer he should have known better. I don’t see it a valid argument to point to Modly as fodder for the argument civilians should not be in charge of the military.

Modly fucked up here. There was no reason to address the sailors. People in the military get fucked for doing the right thing all the time. He lost his command, they didn't kick him out correct? These things happen all the time. I had a CO that got relieved after 3 months and after hearing the scuttlebutt I'm not surprised why. He was very "aggressive" in his tone when addressing the ship (I actually thought it was weird that he addressed us so much, the last Strike Group CO you'd barely hear from) and his thick Oklahoman accent probably didn't help the tone of his comments. For those curious, apparently many were very uncomfortable how he was talking about attacking the enemy and what not, when we weren't "actively" at war.

Completely in agreement.

Removing Crozier (who seems to have gotten stuck behind only his proposed solution when his job was to notify and notify clearly and await orders.) was actually step one in the solution sequence.

What he did afterwards was throw a personal fit and insert himself way down the chain of command with the goal that he higher ups knew "he" took care of it ( it being a public display ).

Weirdly, sections comment about serving the mission( Captain Evans on the Johnston) reminded me that when Nelson finally cornered the French and Spanish at Trafalgar, more than 50% of his sailors and marines had dysentery, scurvy, pneumonia and brutal digestive and skin infections.

"England expects every many to do his duty" was the response that captures the naval code ( and the competitive difference)of both nations naval history

In comment 14862267 thrunthrublue said:

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Were happy the captain chose saving lives and health over proper navy protocol, the captain acted like a wartime leader......putting his crew first. A hero.

And you would be wrong. A "wartime leader" or anybody who has ever served knows it is mission first and people second. That is how it must be. If people were first the mission would not be done.

In comment 14862569 Burtman said:

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In comment 14862267 thrunthrublue said: Quote: Were happy the captain chose saving lives and health over proper navy protocol, the captain acted like a wartime leader......putting his crew first. A hero. And you would be wrong. A "wartime leader" or anybody who has ever served knows it is mission first and people second. That is how it must be. If people were first the mission would not be done.

In theory, the crew honestly shouldn't have much to worry about. These are supposed to be young people without any health issues. In reality, though they are letting weight standards slip by the wayside, especially for re enlisters. I wonder if this changes how the military has been trending in letting weight standards slide. Probably not though because they are having trouble keeping people in. Unfortunately because of the consequences to the economy that will probably change and the military will be able to be choosier and treat their people like trash again, similar to 2008-13. I talked to some cook a couple months ago that got a massive re-enlistment bonus, dude was about as dumb as a door handle. Those days are probably over for the tiembeing.

But what would their mission have been, generally speaking.

In comment 14862636 ron mexico said:

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But what would their mission have been, generally speaking.

Well they are out in SE Asia so its to make sure China doesn't pull any fucking shenanigans like they've constantly been the last 10 years. If anything all this instability is the perfect time to pull shit they've had their eye on.

People are running off here having read an account in a newspaper or online or watching cable news. They act as though they have a clue about what happened and they don’t. I don’t know whether the the captain should have been relieved, reassigned or fired for what he did nor do I know what he did before he sent that letter. And, we don’t know who leaked the letter. I do know that the SecNavy resigned after some pretty bizarre behavior including not taking the time to do a thorough investigation. I’ve said this several times in these threads and feel like I’m beating a dead horse. It’s not what was done, it’s how it was done. And, none of us know what pressure the Sec may have been under actual,or perceived or if he was trying to impress anyone or whatever. The Navy should get the facts first and the decide what happened or should have happened.

In comment 14862652 Samiam said:

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People are running off here having read an account in a newspaper or online or watching cable news. They act as though they have a clue about what happened and they don’t. I don’t know whether the the captain should have been relieved, reassigned or fired for what he did nor do I know what he did before he sent that letter. And, we don’t know who leaked the letter. I do know that the SecNavy resigned after some pretty bizarre behavior including not taking the time to do a thorough investigation. I’ve said this several times in these threads and feel like I’m beating a dead horse. It’s not what was done, it’s how it was done. And, none of us know what pressure the Sec may have been under actual,or perceived or if he was trying to impress anyone or whatever. The Navy should get the facts first and the decide what happened or should have happened.

I will only agree that the after action by SecNav was bizarre. The actual relieving was not unwarranted.

You are beating a dead horse because your horse is dead.
Anyone above him in that chain of command has the right to relieve him. They do not need an investigation before relieving him. They will likely do an investigation and review board to find what led to his decision. But they are not waiting around to find out why a Captain effectively took his ship out of service. It takes weeks maybe months to convene a board. The Navy and the Pentagon cannot pull an active carrier out of service with no notice except for catastrophic events, actual physical debilitating damage. There are only twelve for the whole world(IIRC). The ones not on patrol are either undergoing refit, repair and/or training. Outages are worked up years in advance.

I only ask two questions:
1.) were you in the military and if so what rank?
2.) did you ever command a ship?

In comment 14862641 Zeke's Alibi said:

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Well they are out in SE Asia so its to make sure China doesn't pull any fucking shenanigans like they've constantly been the last 10 years. If anything all this instability is the perfect time to pull shit they've had their eye on.

What kind of shenanigans would you expect a carrier to prevent? And wouldn’t the other pacific carriers, particularly the Reagan which homeports in Japan, adequately perform anti-shenanigan duty?

In comment 14862652 Samiam said:

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People are running off here having read an account in a newspaper or online or watching cable news. They act as though they have a clue about what happened and they don’t. I don’t know whether the the captain should have been relieved, reassigned or fired for what he did nor do I know what he did before he sent that letter. And, we don’t know who leaked the letter. I do know that the SecNavy resigned after some pretty bizarre behavior including not taking the time to do a thorough investigation. I’ve said this several times in these threads and feel like I’m beating a dead horse. It’s not what was done, it’s how it was done. And, none of us know what pressure the Sec may have been under actual,or perceived or if he was trying to impress anyone or whatever. The Navy should get the facts first and the decide what happened or should have happened.

There are a ton of accounts of what happened. Quite frankly, you have been the one on here doing the most speculating (alluded to some conspiracy theory which you don’t want to say because it would get too political). A lot of the “unknowns” you cite are completely immaterial. All indications are that he went through the initial proper channels first. That doesn’t absolve him of subsequent actions. Would it make him look worse if he had not initially gone through those channels? Sure. Then the Navy would have been REALLY justified instead of justified in removing him.

As for who leaked the email to the press, again that is immaterial. Would it have been worse had he leaked it himself? Sure. But he sent the email to people who had no business being sent that email, one of who leaked it.

Having initially went through the chain of command, his duty was to follow his chain of command’s instructions. Not send the email to a bunch of people to vent, to put pressure on his chain of command, or whatever else his intent was.

As for Modly, that is a separate issue. It is possible, and it looks like, Modly was completely justified in removing the CO from command, while Modly was completely unprofessional in how he subsequently handled the situation.

Most people who were saying the CO was wrong here are also saying that Moldy was wrong as well. You seem to be locking yourself into a false dichotomy of Moldy vs. the CO, when all indications are they were both wrong, and they have both lost their positions

In comment 14862687 Jim in Fairfax said:

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In comment 14862641 Zeke's Alibi said: Quote: Well they are out in SE Asia so its to make sure China doesn't pull any fucking shenanigans like they've constantly been the last 10 years. If anything all this instability is the perfect time to pull shit they've had their eye on. What kind of shenanigans would you expect a carrier to prevent? And wouldn’t the other pacific carriers, particularly the Reagan which homeports in Japan, adequately perform anti-shenanigan duty?

Well while I was out there we stopped in Kota Kinabalu to stop China from just taking over the waters over there, creating man made islands ,and claiming territory rich in Rare Earth minerals. It's all about presence. Carriers are crazy high maintenance, there is a reason we have 11, most aren't operationally ready. Generally speaking we have one carrier in SE Asia that is operationally ready. That was the Roosevelt.

building, I tend to question the folks running our Navy.

In comment 14862569 Burtman said:

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In comment 14862267 thrunthrublue said: Quote: Were happy the captain chose saving lives and health over proper navy protocol, the captain acted like a wartime leader......putting his crew first. A hero. And you would be wrong. A "wartime leader" or anybody who has ever served knows it is mission first and people second. That is how it must be. If people were first the mission would not be done.

While we can argue until the cows come home regarding Crozier and his mistake and firing, this is such hunky dory nonsense.

It's never mission first, people second. That's the worst interpretation of what it's to be a leader in wartime or not. It's mission first, people always. The moment you put people second to the mission, you value your greatest charge and responsibilities. It's not a ranking system between the two. It's an application of prudence and judgement on when mission is no longer worth the risk to your people.

You devalue your...not value.

serve and have served ... and I understand chain of command from a civilian corporate perspective. Situations like this are usually complex and we don’t know the full story ... having said that ... my first thought went to the movie ‘Behind Enemy Lines’ ... The Admiral saw a life and death situation and erred on the side of protecting his men.

In comment 14862283 Milton said:

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In comment 14862119 Matt M. said: Quote: This was more my take. The media immediately jumps on stuff like this making it seem like he was slighted or treated harshly. But, they don't view it from the perspective of security or service, which is all that really matters. By blaming the media, you just made it political. See how easy it is and you were the one who started the thread thinking it shouldn't be political. It's a slippery slope. You should probably delete before you get yourself banned.

How is blaming the media political? I am encompassing all media outlets. Their goal is to sensationalize the story. And, they do so from a purely civilian perspective. That has nothing to do with politics.

The only thing saving Modley from being a worst SECNAV than Mabus, is that he was the acting SECNAV.

I don't think I have ever seen a military leader become hated so quickly by both civilians and military alike.

That said the JOPA facebook page has had some great memes stemming from this PR fiasco.

Your perspective really helps contextualize the events for us civilians. Based on the alleged timeline and the veteran input here, my take is both Cozier and Modly acted incorrectly. Cozier broke the chain of command and potentially jeopardized the safety of the ship, the carrier detail, and the mission. Modly acted hastily and unprofessionally. Both men seem to have justly lost their positions.

I have a couple of follow-up questions. One, even though Modly technically has the authority to relieve /Cozier of his duty, would it have been more common for him to either do so through the CO or an investigation? Is it common for a man of Cozier's service history to resign as opposed to accept re-assignment, especially after losing your command? I guess, in other words, would his future Navy career have been jeopardized had he remained on active duty?

When you’re a commander, you make decisions that may jeopardize your career based on what you deem as important to you. So while we can all pretty much agree that Crozier was wrong in what he did in sending out the letter, it was most definitely not a mistake but a calculated action. Maybe he didn't expect to be fired so fast, but I'm sure that he wasn't surprised that his career came to an end. That is the burden of command in forest of circumstances.

In comment 14863128 RC in MD said:

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When you’re a commander, you make decisions that may jeopardize your career based on what you deem as important to you. So while we can all pretty much agree that Crozier was wrong in what he did in sending out the letter, it was most definitely not a mistake but a calculated action. Maybe he didn't expect to be fired so fast, but I'm sure that he wasn't surprised that his career came to an end. That is the burden of command in forest of circumstances.

Thanks Ron. He was probably well on his way to his own flag, too. But he has to look at himself every morning in the mirror. He'll have some regrets but he can live with it.

In comment 14862997 Matt M. said:

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How is blaming the media political?

Maybe you haven't been following politics lately.

In comment 14863137 Milton said:

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In comment 14862997 Matt M. said: Quote: How is blaming the media political? Maybe you haven't been following politics lately.

In any case we should probably just drop it. No harm no foul.

In comment 14863137 Milton said:

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In comment 14862997 Matt M. said: Quote: How is blaming the media political? Maybe you haven't been following politics lately.

If I mentioned specific networks/publications maybe. Not media in general. This story wasn't sensationalized and covered from a perspective other than the military, in general?

In comment 14862907 RC in MD said:

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You devalue your...not value.

Lol and that is where the Navy differs waaaay more than the other branches. Still runs on a traditional caste system.

In comment 14863128 RC in MD said:

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When you’re a commander, you make decisions that may jeopardize your career based on what you deem as important to you. So while we can all pretty much agree that Crozier was wrong in what he did in sending out the letter, it was most definitely not a mistake but a calculated action. Maybe he didn't expect to be fired so fast, but I'm sure that he wasn't surprised that his career came to an end. That is the burden of command in forest of circumstances.

People that didn't serve are having trouble coming to these terms. There is a way things need to be done so you don't set precedent for others. He knew he was toast as soon as he sent that, but he did something you don't see too many in command do in the Navy, sacrifice himself for his enlisted sailors (even if I think it was slightly misguided it is something I can deeply fucking respect).

In comment 14863000 Man In The Box said:

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The only thing saving Modley from being a worst SECNAV than Mabus, is that he was the acting SECNAV. I don't think I have ever seen a military leader become hated so quickly by both civilians and military alike. That said the JOPA facebook page has had some great memes stemming from this PR fiasco.

Fuck Ray Mabus, fuck that guy so hard.

In comment 14862569 Burtman said:

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In comment 14862267 thrunthrublue said: Quote: Were happy the captain chose saving lives and health over proper navy protocol, the captain acted like a wartime leader......putting his crew first. A hero. And you would be wrong. A "wartime leader" or anybody who has ever served knows it is mission first and people second. That is how it must be. If people were first the mission would not be done.

My son in law is an MH-60S pilot currently detailed to the Roosevelt on deployment. He does not consider the CO a hero...he had other feelings I won't share here.

In comment 14863246 Zeke's Alibi said:

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In comment 14862907 RC in MD said: Quote: You devalue your...not value. Lol and that is where the Navy differs waaaay more than the other branches. Still runs on a traditional caste system.

Very true

In comment 14863267 rnargi said:

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In comment 14862569 Burtman said: Quote: In comment 14862267 thrunthrublue said: Quote: Were happy the captain chose saving lives and health over proper navy protocol, the captain acted like a wartime leader......putting his crew first. A hero. And you would be wrong. A "wartime leader" or anybody who has ever served knows it is mission first and people second. That is how it must be. If people were first the mission would not be done. My son in law is an MH-60S pilot currently detailed to the Roosevelt on deployment. He does not consider the CO a hero...he had other feelings I won't share here.

I've got a bunch of friends in -31, 87, & 154 and they all have nothing but good things to say about Chopper.

In comment 14863222 Matt M. said:

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In comment 14863137 Milton said: Quote: In comment 14862997 Matt M. said: Quote: How is blaming the media political? Maybe you haven't been following politics lately. If I mentioned specific networks/publications maybe. Not media in general. This story wasn't sensationalized and covered from a perspective other than the military, in general?

I really don't want to continue this because it risks jeopardizing the thread, but there are those who consider the media (in general) to be the enemy and they are on one side of the aisle. If you want to belabor the point the thread will get even more political than it has now become, but I'm not simply going to let you get away with pretending otherwise.

Don't take my word for it. Email Eric or Gidie and ask them if painting the media as a villain makes a thread political. It's a trigger.

None of this frick and frack has much to do with the thread. Its just two guys stuck in a micro loop and being stubborn about it.

If you care about the thread and fellow posters as you say...let the obsession go and engage elsewhere.

You are not mods nor thought police. Why lecture a grown man across two days as if this is a hill you can stand on. Beats me why media had to be introduced but so what?

What's the goal here?

Stubborn is BBI's middle name.

You are usually detached and cooler than average BBI

Hope all is well or on the way to better in your world

In comment 14863450 Bill2 said:

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You are usually detached and cooler than average BBI

Yes, but I can be very stubborn.

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Hope all is well or on the way to better in your world

I'm doing well, hunkering down is standard operating procedure for me. And you, my friend, how goes it?

Yeah. I have a lot more time on my hands when I don't have to travel.

Doubling down on my reading habits and getting through books on my list. Posting too much out of boredom. exercising more.

like many of us.

Take care. Good to hear you are well.

In comment 14863287 Man In The Box said:

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In comment 14863267 rnargi said: Quote: In comment 14862569 Burtman said: Quote: In comment 14862267 thrunthrublue said: Quote: Were happy the captain chose saving lives and health over proper navy protocol, the captain acted like a wartime leader......putting his crew first. A hero. And you would be wrong. A "wartime leader" or anybody who has ever served knows it is mission first and people second. That is how it must be. If people were first the mission would not be done. My son in law is an MH-60S pilot currently detailed to the Roosevelt on deployment. He does not consider the CO a hero...he had other feelings I won't share here. I've got a bunch of friends in -31, 87, & 154 and they all have nothing but good things to say about Chopper.

I also have a number of friends who have served with him and they have all sang his praise.

In comment 14863343 Bill2 said:

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None of this frick and frack has much to do with the thread. Its just two guys stuck in a micro loop and being stubborn about it. If you care about the thread and fellow posters as you say...let the obsession go and engage elsewhere. You are not mods nor thought police. Why lecture a grown man across two days as if this is a hill you can stand on. Beats me why media had to be introduced but so what? What's the goal here?

Bill and Milton - the media was introduced from a sociological perspective. As I stated, the media covers this purely from the humanitarian aspect of the Captain's actions, which resonates differently with the general public who have not served. That is why I started the thread in the first place, to see if veterans, especially Navy veterans, had a different perspective on the events. Their perspective has been very useful and the discussion has been interesting and chiefly apolitical.

He served in WW2 and was in the Battle of Saipan. He was also there when the Indianapolis delivered the two bombs and when the Enola Gay took off to drop its bomb on Hiroshima.

I posted this a couple times before, but for those of you who missed it...
My father's WW2 interview - ( New Window )

In comment 14863858 Milton said:

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He served in WW2 and was in the Battle of Saipan. He was also there when the Indianapolis delivered the two bombs and when the Enola Gay took off to drop its bomb on Hiroshima. I posted this a couple times before, but for those of you who missed it... My father's WW2 interview - ( New Window )

Thanks for sharing this again. I recall you posting it before. Did you also serve?

In comment 14863889 Matt M. said:

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In comment 14863858 Milton said: Quote: He served in WW2 and was in the Battle of Saipan. He was also there when the Indianapolis delivered the two bombs and when the Enola Gay took off to drop its bomb on Hiroshima. I posted this a couple times before, but for those of you who missed it... My father's WW2 interview - ( New Window ) Thanks for sharing this again. I recall you posting it before. Did you also serve?

No I would never have had the courage to do what my father did.

In comment 14863895 Milton said:

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In comment 14863889 Matt M. said: Quote: In comment 14863858 Milton said: Quote: He served in WW2 and was in the Battle of Saipan. He was also there when the Indianapolis delivered the two bombs and when the Enola Gay took off to drop its bomb on Hiroshima. I posted this a couple times before, but for those of you who missed it... My father's WW2 interview - ( New Window ) Thanks for sharing this again. I recall you posting it before. Did you also serve? No I would never have had the courage to do what my father did.

I can relate. First, if your dad is still with us, please thank him for his service. It sounds like he had an extraordinary experience, being involved in very historic moments.

Second, I often think back to 25+ years ago when I was graduating college. I was considering enlisting and applying for OCS. Ultimately, I did not and sometimes wonder of that was a good thing or not and how differently my life may have turned out. Before that, I wanted to attend the USNA, but the verbal score on my SAT was 10 points too low to apply, while my math score was high enough to be very competitive. Again, I often think about his differenty my life may have turned out.

Either way, it is unlikely I would have been married to my wife and have these 3 wonderful kids, so I have no complaints. It's just something I think about.

In comment 14863858 Milton said:

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He served in WW2 and was in the Battle of Saipan. He was also there when the Indianapolis delivered the two bombs and when the Enola Gay took off to drop its bomb on Hiroshima. I posted this a couple times before, but for those of you who missed it... My father's WW2 interview - ( New Window )

Thanks for posting this!!! Great listen, understand!!! Thanks for your father’s service as well!!!

In comment 14863964 Phatbrew said:

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Thanks for posting this!!! Great listen, understand!!! Thanks for your father’s service as well!!!

Haha yeah you picked up on that! He was born in the back of a laundromat on Delancey Street and spoke in the LES vernacular with as thick an authentic accent as you will find.

In comment 14863905 Matt M. said:

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First, if your dad is still with us, please thank him for his service. It sounds like he had an extraordinary experience, being involved in very historic moments.

My dad passed away in 1981, but I appreciate the sentiment.

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Second, I often think back to 25+ years ago when I was graduating college. I was considering enlisting and applying for OCS. Ultimately, I did not and sometimes wonder of that was a good thing or not and how differently my life may have turned out. Before that, I wanted to attend the USNA, but the verbal score on my SAT was 10 points too low to apply, while my math score was high enough to be very competitive. Again, I often think about his differenty my life may have turned out. Either way, it is unlikely I would have been married to my wife and have these 3 wonderful kids, so I have no complaints. It's just something I think about.

The military was something I never considered, but I'm sure it would've done me good as a lack of discipline has been perhaps my biggest flaw in life.

In comment 14863905 Matt M. said:

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In comment 14863895 Milton said: Quote: In comment 14863889 Matt M. said: Quote: In comment 14863858 Milton said: Quote: He served in WW2 and was in the Battle of Saipan. He was also there when the Indianapolis delivered the two bombs and when the Enola Gay took off to drop its bomb on Hiroshima. I posted this a couple times before, but for those of you who missed it... My father's WW2 interview - ( New Window ) Thanks for sharing this again. I recall you posting it before. Did you also serve? No I would never have had the courage to do what my father did. I can relate. First, if your dad is still with us, please thank him for his service. It sounds like he had an extraordinary experience, being involved in very historic moments. Second, I often think back to 25+ years ago when I was graduating college. I was considering enlisting and applying for OCS. Ultimately, I did not and sometimes wonder of that was a good thing or not and how differently my life may have turned out. Before that, I wanted to attend the USNA, but the verbal score on my SAT was 10 points too low to apply, while my math score was high enough to be very competitive. Again, I often think about his differenty my life may have turned out. Either way, it is unlikely I would have been married to my wife and have these 3 wonderful kids, so I have no complaints. It's just something I think about.

I think your last paragraph is the key. It's not a bad thing to think about how things could have been different, but regrets are never good. And having a wonderful family is the true key to happiness as I've found in my life.

I went to USNA and commissioned in the Marine Corps almost 20 years ago. While it definitely set me on a trajectory for the life I have now, I've missed so much of my family and friends' lives. While on active duty, I spent just as much time deployed as I was home, putting my mom through too much heartache (having a twin brother being a USMA grad and an SF officer added to her heartache). I've lost some great friends, and while I feel like I've been truly fortunate, I'm not without my own issues.

After leaving active duty in 2010 after 8 years of active duty, I found true happiness as my wife and I have three wonderful kids today. I don't regret anything I've done in my military career (I'm now a reservist), but I would be lying if I didn't admit that there have been just as many hard times as good times...some too hard.

Remember the time prior to 2010, under a different tag name, RMC would periodically make contact during some of his rotation and catch up on Giants news.

RMC was a ground leader in some of the toughest fighting thrown our way. And did it more than one tour.

Our own Dunedin and his wife did tough tours during that time. Not just one, but multiple.

I know Dillon and one other BBI regular from that era also deserve our respect and thanks.

I remember the Midnchae handle(IIRC) maybe/probably slightly different. Long time ago. I must be getting old or something.

I was actually laughing this morning at your 1000 burpee per day workout. Damn, I may have done that many in my life - hate those effers.....5 Murphs per week?

In comment 14864102 Bill2 said:

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Remember the time prior to 2010, under a different tag name, RMC would periodically make contact during some of his rotation and catch up on Giants news. RMC was a ground leader in some of the toughest fighting thrown our way. And did it more than one tour. Our own Dunedin and his wife did tough tours during that time. Not just one, but multiple. I know Dillon and one other BBI regular from that era also deserve our respect and thanks.

Agree wholeheartedly. These folks deserve our upmost thanks. My brother was in special forces in Vietnam and I am just fully starting to understand his ordeal. He is 71 and his surviving brothers have told me more about his sacrifice than he has wanted to divulge. I have profound respect for everyone that has served.

In comment 14864102 Bill2 said:

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Remember the time prior to 2010, under a different tag name, RMC would periodically make contact during some of his rotation and catch up on Giants news. RMC was a ground leader in some of the toughest fighting thrown our way. And did it more than one tour. Our own Dunedin and his wife did tough tours during that time. Not just one, but multiple. I know Dillon and one other BBI regular from that era also deserve our respect and thanks.

Hey Bill...it's always great to see your posts. Haven't been posting much since I've been back after a long break. Life has been busy on my end with three little ones...well, one isn't so little these days at almost nine years old. But a two year old and a five year old definitely makes life more crazy.

Hope that your break from traveling has been relaxing for you. And please stay safe and healthy.
Ronnie

In comment 14864109 section125 said:

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I remember the Midnchae handle(IIRC) maybe/probably slightly different. Long time ago. I must be getting old or something. I was actually laughing this morning at your 1000 burpee per day workout. Damn, I may have done that many in my life - hate those effers.....5 Murphs per week?

You almost had it! It was Midn_Chae...great memory.

And yes, the 1000 burpees was a huge mistake...and the week long Murph was also a mistake. I've been dealing with what may be a sports hernia for several months, so I've been extra stupid doing those challenges. I even had my two year old pulling a 25lb sled yesterday while working out.

Seeing your posts reminds me to reach out by email.

I am so glad about your family.

And Ronnie, you seem content. Enjoy and Deserved.

For those not here at the time, both Ronnie a d Dunedin were Captains by their last tours.
Marines and Army respectively.

Im less sure of Dune. We tended to talk books we were reading at the time and the factionalism within Iraq at that time

In comment 14864130 Bill2 said:

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For those not here at the time, both Ronnie a d Dunedin were Captains by their last tours. Marines and Army respectively. Im less sure of Dune. We tended to talk books we were reading at the time and the factionalism within Iraq at that time

Dune is doing very well...he's busy with his brood as well and running marathons like a madman.

I took a few years off when I left active duty, so I'm two years behind my peers, but I'll be going into the board for LtCol this year...time sure does fly.

Taking care of yourself comes first.

I'd say all the best on the Lt.Col. recognition but my bet is that it's a slam dunk.

Yeah, Dune and I stay in touch via the Yankee threads. ( well except for now)

In comment 14864137 RC in MD said:

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In comment 14864130 Bill2 said: Quote: For those not here at the time, both Ronnie a d Dunedin were Captains by their last tours. Marines and Army respectively. Im less sure of Dune. We tended to talk books we were reading at the time and the factionalism within Iraq at that time Dune is doing very well...he's busy with his brood as well and running marathons like a madman. I took a few years off when I left active duty, so I'm two years behind my peers, but I'll be going into the board for LtCol this year...time sure does fly.

A little burnout after those tours, no doubt...best wishes on your board. Stay in, get those pension credits. Friend of mine in my brother's class stayed active in reserve(USN - submariner), made O-6 and has a nice backup pension.
I presume your daughter is doing well, which is wonderful.

In comment 14864293 section125 said:

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In comment 14864137 RC in MD said: Quote: In comment 14864130 Bill2 said: Quote: For those not here at the time, both Ronnie a d Dunedin were Captains by their last tours. Marines and Army respectively. Im less sure of Dune. We tended to talk books we were reading at the time and the factionalism within Iraq at that time Dune is doing very well...he's busy with his brood as well and running marathons like a madman. I took a few years off when I left active duty, so I'm two years behind my peers, but I'll be going into the board for LtCol this year...time sure does fly. A little burnout after those tours, no doubt...best wishes on your board. Stay in, get those pension credits. Friend of mine in my brother's class stayed active in reserve(USN - submariner), made O-6 and has a nice backup pension. I presume your daughter is doing well, which is wonderful.

She's doing very well, thank you. We had her annual sedated MRI scheduled for this month, but with COVID-19, we are postponing it for a bit. As she did not show any signs of tumors in her little body in last year's scan, her neurologist doesn't think it's of any concern to wait this out. And she's continued to hit all of her developmental milestones, so we feel very fortunate since other children with her condition don't have such positive growth.

I've got four more years until I hit my 20, but I will most likely stay in until the Corps force me to retire. Who knows if I'll ever sniff O6 since the reserves is a bit top heavy with only limited spaces for senior officers.

In comment 14864347 RC in MD said:

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She's doing very well, thank you. We had her annual sedated MRI scheduled for this month, but with COVID-19, we are postponing it for a bit. As she did not show any signs of tumors in her little body in last year's scan, her neurologist doesn't think it's of any concern to wait this out. And she's continued to hit all of her developmental milestones, so we feel very fortunate since other children with her condition don't have such positive growth. I've got four more years until I hit my 20, but I will most likely stay in until the Corps force me to retire. Who knows if I'll ever sniff O6 since the reserves is a bit top heavy with only limited spaces for senior officers.

Thank heavens on that. Always nervous until the MRI proves negative. Essential parental angst.

Yes, USMC being a "smaller" branch the top spots are more limited. USN would have more billets.

Stay safe.

on this thread and obviously in the real world too.

also anyone who did murph 5x in a week I'd love to get a reco on your pullup bar.

In comment 14864463 Eric on Li said:

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on this thread and obviously in the real world too. also anyone who did murph 5x in a week I'd love to get a reco on your pullup bar.

It was a total pain...first one felt great but the next six were like getting kicked in the nuts repeatedly.

As far as pull-up bar goes. I recommend something like this from Rogue that you can hang from your garage ceiling. I have a similar system that I bought years ago (8 or so years ago) that have been sturdy as hell in my garage. Also, since I don't do any form of CrossFit style kipping pull-ups, my bar doesn't get nearly as much abuse, hence it being sturdy after thousands of pull-ups.
Pull-up bar - ( New Window )

In comment 14864779 RC in MD said:

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In comment 14864463 Eric on Li said: Quote: on this thread and obviously in the real world too. also anyone who did murph 5x in a week I'd love to get a reco on your pullup bar. It was a total pain...first one felt great but the next six were like getting kicked in the nuts repeatedly. As far as pull-up bar goes. I recommend something like this from Rogue that you can hang from your garage ceiling. I have a similar system that I bought years ago (8 or so years ago) that have been sturdy as hell in my garage. Also, since I don't do any form of CrossFit style kipping pull-ups, my bar doesn't get nearly as much abuse, hence it being sturdy after thousands of pull-ups. Pull-up bar - ( New Window )

thank you - I had an old door frame one buried in my closet and I was hoping it'd be good enough to get by but it's on it's last legs. once you get used to rogue stuff it's hard to go back.

Is the assumption that the port call in Vietnam is where the virus was first contracted by sailors?

In comment 14866128 Matt M. said:

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Is the assumption that the port call in Vietnam is where the virus was first contracted by sailors?

Who knows ? A carrier has an underway replenishment every few days. The virus could have come over on anything that was shipped or any personnel that may have come on board from other ships. Although the sailors couldn't get off the ship anywhere except Vietnam, the pilots could have brought it back from any Naval Air Station in the Western Pacific.

Jim Sciutto
@jimsciutto
· 15m
Breaking: A sailor who tested positive for COVID-19 on the USS Theodore Roosevelt has died of coronavirus, says Navy. Nearly 600 sailors on board have now tested positive.

Excellent article that tries to provide a holistic view of Command at Sea and what that entails...Bottom line is that CAPT Crozier steered away from his command responsibilities of accomplishing the mission and towards one of ironically putting his ship and crew in more danger by broadcasting to others outside that chain of command that the ship was vulnerable. China and Russia I'm sure were listening too...
Command at Sea: What’s Love Got to Do with It? - ( New Window )

In comment 14866725 Joe in NC said:

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Excellent article that tries to provide a holistic view of Command at Sea and what that entails...Bottom line is that CAPT Crozier steered away from his command responsibilities of accomplishing the mission and towards one of ironically putting his ship and crew in more danger by broadcasting to others outside that chain of command that the ship was vulnerable. China and Russia I'm sure were listening too... Command at Sea: What’s Love Got to Do with It? - ( New Window )

The fact that this is lost on people blows my mind. Like the whole point of us spending a fuckton of money on the military is to have complete control over global affairs. Do people think the rest of the world is stopping because of COVID? The very complete opposite, this is the perfect time for the other massive players in the game to make moves or for another terrorist attack.

These guys signed on the dotted line, they know the risks. Sure the E4 and below generally get treated like trash, but as far as we know they are at practically at zero risk from COVID. E5 and below are compensated fairly (especially if they do their 20). The ones at risk on that ship are probably a bunch of fat chiefs that skirt by on weight standards because they are measured by other chiefs, while the officers have a strict enforcement code and are measured by the other chiefs. Then they get out and claim 50 percent disability for sleep apnea or they myriad of other health issues from being overweight that had nothing to do with their service. There is one of the reasons the military has health standards, and while they have gone away from them in recent times, this is may be an awakening for who they take. Especially in the next few years when people will be lining up to join because they can't get jobs.

The initial parts of the crew that were most affected and handicapped by the infection were the folks in the nuclear reactor maintenance and Quality Control Units.

Ok I get being concerned about that

Mis information or too much information then went to the crew in general from the Carrier Medical Team...causing a great deal of concern all over the ship

This looks like it isn't going to wind up a very black and white case study

In comment 14866743 Bill2 said:

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The initial parts of the crew that were most affected and handicapped by the infection were the folks in the nuclear reactor maintenance and Quality Control Units. Ok I get being concerned about that Mis information or too much information then went to the crew in general from the Carrier Medical Team...causing a great deal of concern all over the ship This looks like it isn't going to wind up a very black and white case study

If you ask a captain of an aircraft carrier what his biggest concerns are, I can almost guarantee you controlling scuttlebutt is top 3. Rumor and misinformation runs rampant. And the way some are portraying this out in the media you'd think this was a death sentence for the general population, I wouldn't be surprised if most the crew thought they were at legit risk. It's hard to explain to people, but you have very little interaction with the outside world on these ships. The internet is barely usable for 98 percent of the crew outside of email. For context I went to bodybuilding.com, and ordered something off their site. It literally took my whole 30 minute of allotment to complete the order. A task that routinely takes 2 minutes.

In comment 14866753 Zeke's Alibi said:

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The internet is barely usable for 98 percent of the crew outside of email. For context I went to bodybuilding.com, and ordered something off their site. It literally took my whole 30 minute of allotment to complete the order. A task that routinely takes 2 minutes.

Ha, satellite internet. Even on a merchant ship with only 20-30 crew and 5 stations, it is so effin slow as to be worse than dial up...

In comment 14866673 Ryan in Albany said:

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Jim Sciutto @jimsciutto · 15m Breaking: A sailor who tested positive for COVID-19 on the USS Theodore Roosevelt has died of coronavirus, says Navy. Nearly 600 sailors on board have now tested positive.

The first of more than a few, I'm afraid...

In comment 14866753 Zeke's Alibi said:

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In comment 14866743 Bill2 said: Quote: The initial parts of the crew that were most affected and handicapped by the infection were the folks in the nuclear reactor maintenance and Quality Control Units. Ok I get being concerned about that Mis information or too much information then went to the crew in general from the Carrier Medical Team...causing a great deal of concern all over the ship This looks like it isn't going to wind up a very black and white case study If you ask a captain of an aircraft carrier what his biggest concerns are, I can almost guarantee you controlling scuttlebutt is top 3. Rumor and misinformation runs rampant. And the way some are portraying this out in the media you'd think this was a death sentence for the general population, I wouldn't be surprised if most the crew thought they were at legit risk. It's hard to explain to people, but you have very little interaction with the outside world on these ships. The internet is barely usable for 98 percent of the crew outside of email. For context I went to bodybuilding.com, and ordered something off their site. It literally took my whole 30 minute of allotment to complete the order. A task that routinely takes 2 minutes.

One of the sailors just died. Fair to say they were at legit risk.

I've got two observations about your comments

1). Controlling scuttlebutt is impossible. There was no internet in my time, but we still had an idea what was going on in the outside world. News broadcasts were piped in, magazines were sold on board, and, of course we got letters. Today I imagine sailors see the same sensationalist news that the rest of us see.

2) Health problems were always in issue on ships. In my day many sailors smoked like freight trains. Back then they chewed tobacco as well. Its just the kind of thing that would make even young men vulnerable to COVID. Weight control was a problem among senior enlisted. If E6's and above start dropping off, that ship isn't going to be functional for long

In comment 14866810 Ron from Ninerland said:

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I've got two observations about your comments 1). Controlling scuttlebutt is impossible. There was no internet in my time, but we still had an idea what was going on in the outside world. News broadcasts were piped in, magazines were sold on board, and, of course we got letters. Today I imagine sailors see the same sensationalist news that the rest of us see. 2) Health problems were always in issue on ships. In my day many sailors smoked like freight trains. Back then they chewed tobacco as well. Its just the kind of thing that would make even young men vulnerable to COVID. Weight control was a problem among senior enlisted. If E6's and above start dropping off, that ship isn't going to be functional for long

Concur...I made a couple of cruises on the NIMITZ in the mid-to-late 80's, and EVERY time we headed east to the Med, practically the entire crew came down with some form of upper respiratory junk...Nature of the beast.

And Mess Hall #3 scuttlebutt was renowned for being vocal and wrong at the same time...it didn't help that we had a captain who came up and told us to stop listening to the mess hall and that he'd pass whenever news came up...but he never did.

In comment 14866788 Chris in Philly said:

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In comment 14866753 Zeke's Alibi said: One of the sailors just died. Fair to say they were at legit risk.

Of course some of the upper enlisted are at risk, but they put themselves in the risk group. Just like all the smokers, which I was one. Its hard for me to get worked up about people that put themselves at risk due to personal responsibility, when so many are put at risk for things in the military completely at control. I imagined most the smoke pits are closed on ships right now.

In comment 14866810 Ron from Ninerland said:

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I've got two observations about your comments 1). Controlling scuttlebutt is impossible. There was no internet in my time, but we still had an idea what was going on in the outside world. News broadcasts were piped in, magazines were sold on board, and, of course we got letters. Today I imagine sailors see the same sensationalist news that the rest of us see. 2) Health problems were always in issue on ships. In my day many sailors smoked like freight trains. Back then they chewed tobacco as well. Its just the kind of thing that would make even young men vulnerable to COVID. Weight control was a problem among senior enlisted. If E6's and above start dropping off, that ship isn't going to be functional for long

Right the issue is some dumbass reads something totally wrong, spreads that information to 3, who spread it exponentially. Most people on the ship have very little access to the outside world. I had no idea what was going on during Sandy except for the cable news broadcasts out of the mess decks showing footage out of Hoboken.

And the weight control thing has gotten out of hand, mostly because they look the other way because they are having a hard time retaining good people that didn't get trapped by having family early. There is a reason the military encourages their young enlisted to get married and have kids with the pay structure. Their best bet to retain good, quality people after their first contract is to make sure those people need the financial stability the military generally offers.

Plus the view of what is overweight has significantly changed since then. I see it all over the COVID thread, describing a lot of these people as healthy just because they are average. The average American is pretty far from healthy.

In comment 14866893 Zeke's Alibi said:

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In comment 14866788 Chris in Philly said: Quote: In comment 14866753 Zeke's Alibi said: One of the sailors just died. Fair to say they were at legit risk. Of course some of the upper enlisted are at risk, but they put themselves in the risk group. Just like all the smokers, which I was one. Its hard for me to get worked up about people that put themselves at risk due to personal responsibility, when so many are put at risk for things in the military completely at control. I imagined most the smoke pits are closed on ships right now.

So only people who "put themselves at risk due to personal responsibility" are the only ones who have died from this virus?

In comment 14866905 Chris in Philly said:

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In comment 14866893 Zeke's Alibi said: Quote: In comment 14866788 Chris in Philly said: Quote: In comment 14866753 Zeke's Alibi said: One of the sailors just died. Fair to say they were at legit risk. Of course some of the upper enlisted are at risk, but they put themselves in the risk group. Just like all the smokers, which I was one. Its hard for me to get worked up about people that put themselves at risk due to personal responsibility, when so many are put at risk for things in the military completely at control. I imagined most the smoke pits are closed on ships right now. So only people who "put themselves at risk due to personal responsibility" are the only ones who have died from this virus?

Show me where the dead bodies are at that are under 50 that haven't put themselves in the risk group. Maybe a few unlucky people with genetic disorders, type 1 diabetes, maybe some congenital heart issues. These people aren't allowed in the military to begin with and at boot camp if they find some medical issue after doing extensive testing, guess what, they ship you out. Outside of some heroic medical personnel that were getting heavy doses of COVID the amount of people under 50 where there were no health issues are so few and far between they aren't even worth discussing. It's like talking about the risk from getting struck by lightning.

I really don't think people understand that most the shit they eat is nutritionless garbage, that is actively killing you. It generally just does it slow job because its pseudo food. Even aboard the ship there are plenty of healthy options like fish, chicken, beef, rice, baked potatoes, fresh produce, fresh fruit. And then you have the aft decks with fried food. Which mess hall do you think was more populated? People make their own decisions in life. Part of being in the military is keeping your body a lean, mean, fighting machine. Many don't.

okay. Have a good day.

Social Darwinism in the face of a global health crisis is callous and wrongheaded.

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The warship’s doctors estimated that more than 50 crew members would die, but Capt. Brett E. Crozier’s superiors were balking at what they considered his drastic request to evacuate nearly the entire ship. Captain Crozier was haunted by the Diamond Princess, a cruise ship of 2,600 passengers in individual cabins where the virus had killed eight people and infected more than 700. The situation on his ship had the potential to be far worse: nearly 5,000 sailors crammed in shared berths, sometimes stacked three high. Eight of his sailors with severe Covid-19 symptoms had already been evacuated to the Navy’s hospital in Guam. On March 30, after four days of rebuffs from his superiors, Captain Crozier sat down to compose an email. “Sailors don’t need to die,” he wrote to 20 other people, all Navy personnel in the Pacific, asking for help. A Naval Academy graduate with nearly 30 years of military service, the captain knew the email would most likely end his career, his friends said in interviews. The military prizes its chain of command, and the appropriate course would have been for the captain to continue to push his superiors for action. He hit “send” anyway.

There's a lot more info in the article (including a timeline of when crew members came into contact with the virus and that the outbreak did start with 3 people in the reactor department).
‘There Will Be Losses’ (likely behind NYT paywall) - ( New Window )

In comment 14866930 Chris in Philly said:

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okay. Have a good day.

I'm curious where your disagreement is? Is what you put in your mouth (pseudo food, cigarettes, booze, drugs etc) is that not a personal decision? Like people know these things are bad for them, but they do it anyway. And the refrain generally speaking is well I'll clean it up later, I got time. Until you wake up one day and have a heart attack or a stroke or something like that.

The issue is we have normalized so much shit that we eat and because its "food" it can't be that bad for you. Shit I went to some cheaper buffett type joint on Thanksgiving with my Dad here because nothing else was open and waiting in line the conversations blew my mind. You'd think you were standing outside a methadone clinic.

A colleague of mine is from Ecuador and it constantly blows her mind that so much of the culture here revolves around food. She's like everything seems to revolved around planning and going out to eat or what your having for lunch, etc etc.

including some children who I believe had no known co-morbidities. Also plenty of the co-morbidities and complicating existing conditions are things many are commonly born with (diabetes, asthma, etc).

Separately another factor that may have complicated things on a ship is that there is a theory that the reason healthcare workers have been so impacted, including those in lower risk age groups, is because of the exposure to a higher viral load being in such close contact - which seems like it could be a factor among anyone in very close quarters to an outbreak on a ship.

In comment 14866934 Eric on Li said:

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Quote: The warship’s doctors estimated that more than 50 crew members would die, but Capt. Brett E. Crozier’s superiors were balking at what they considered his drastic request to evacuate nearly the entire ship. Captain Crozier was haunted by the Diamond Princess, a cruise ship of 2,600 passengers in individual cabins where the virus had killed eight people and infected more than 700. The situation on his ship had the potential to be far worse: nearly 5,000 sailors crammed in shared berths, sometimes stacked three high. Eight of his sailors with severe Covid-19 symptoms had already been evacuated to the Navy’s hospital in Guam. On March 30, after four days of rebuffs from his superiors, Captain Crozier sat down to compose an email. “Sailors don’t need to die,” he wrote to 20 other people, all Navy personnel in the Pacific, asking for help. A Naval Academy graduate with nearly 30 years of military service, the captain knew the email would most likely end his career, his friends said in interviews. The military prizes its chain of command, and the appropriate course would have been for the captain to continue to push his superiors for action. He hit “send” anyway. There's a lot more info in the article (including a timeline of when crew members came into contact with the virus and that the outbreak did start with 3 people in the reactor department). ‘There Will Be Losses’ (likely behind NYT paywall) - ( New Window )

The reactor department is the one department on the ship that has different standards. Those are the few guys that can get caught smoking weed and they military won't kick them out. Weight standards are pretty much a suggestion. They are having a huge issue recruiting them because the propaganda they put out there, reasonably smart people see through that shit.

When I started to look into it in 2010 it was the on department you could find information on because it sucked so bad and the people were reasonably smart would take to the internet and you could find nuggets here and there. I'm pretty sure the military actively tries to scrub information what the day to day life is like in the military. It blew my mind how little I could find as far as that was concerned.

ASVAB scores for becoming a Nuke are routinely brought down. I think these days you can get in with a 70 if specific line scores are okay. When I joined, my department historically filled with shitbags, idiots, and trouble makers had more college educated and scores in the 90th percentile by a significant margin than the nukes.

In comment 14866941 Zeke's Alibi said:

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In comment 14866930 Chris in Philly said: Quote: okay. Have a good day. I'm curious where your disagreement is? Is what you put in your mouth (pseudo food, cigarettes, booze, drugs etc) is that not a personal decision? Like people know these things are bad for them, but they do it anyway. And the refrain generally speaking is well I'll clean it up later, I got time. Until you wake up one day and have a heart attack or a stroke or something like that. The issue is we have normalized so much shit that we eat and because its "food" it can't be that bad for you. Shit I went to some cheaper buffett type joint on Thanksgiving with my Dad here because nothing else was open and waiting in line the conversations blew my mind. You'd think you were standing outside a methadone clinic. A colleague of mine is from Ecuador and it constantly blows her mind that so much of the culture here revolves around food. She's like everything seems to revolved around planning and going out to eat or what your having for lunch, etc etc.

That he is smoking a cigar? I mean you can a picture of anyone doing something bad. Shit I had a fast food double cheeseburger and chicken sandwich last night drunk. Doesn't mean I do it on a habitual, constant basis. Gluttony has become the norm in this country. Just look at Rob Reiner's fat ass ranting and raving about the tobacco industry. The cognitive disconnect there is unbelievable. People have a hard time looking at their own faults. I wish more people would practice extreme ownership, but it isn't easy and most people are lazy and comfortable.

Trying to somehow lessen the effects that COVID is having. Saying that anyone under 50 who dies from it has to have other factors to cause the death (except for a few outliers) is not only assumption, it's wrong. Then to claim that you can get away with doing drugs if you're a nuke is ridiculous on your part. It's one of the most important jobs on a ship.

You're all over the place here with nothing but subjective takes based on zero facts.

Have no underlying conditions:

Quote:

Similarly, in New York, 64 percent of patients between the ages of 30 and 39 who died of the disease suffered from a preexisting condition, usually high blood pressure or diabetes. But that still leaves about a third of cases without such a possible contributing factor.

link - ( New Window )

Some know my background, but for those that don't, I served on 3x aircraft carriers (Indy, Kitty, & HST) and completed 6x carrier deployments. From my perspective, the CO was wrong and made it significantly harder for first line supervisors aboard. His letter escalated instead of controlling panic within the crew and put a dent in trusting the chain of command, which is vital to successful missions (wartime or peace). Why should junior enlisted or the crew in general listen to their immediate supervisors / chain or report to watches / job if the CO doesn't and panic spreads? I know that sounds a bit much, but trust me, it would (and has) happen(ed). I'm not talking of a full scale mutiny, but enough trouble from those that always push the system and since everyone is panicking, you have to weigh your approach to discipline. If the CO is still in command, any hard handed discipline would potentially push additional crew to question any decision or orders.

One of the biggest reasons the US Navy is so powerful and strikes awe around the world is that we train to chaos. It's basically organized or controlled chaos. I cant count the times we trained for mass casualty events, quarantining mess decks and other spaces,general quarters and donning PPE.

I've been injected with 13x shots of Anthrax, 2x doses of Small Pox, etc., while underway. We couldn't even go on a port call if we didn't hand in our "Hazmat" small pox band-aids. I pretty much lived in full MOPP gear for a week straight sitting off the coasts of India and Pakistan when they lit off their nukes. Point being, we trained and trained for "shit hitting the fan" and instilled confidence in the chain of command that they could respond to life threatening events in a calm, assertive demeanor.

So while I think the CO's heart was in the right place, his actions weren't. I know it would have made my job a lot harder. I know a few shipmates on the TR and not all praised his actions either. It's a common discussion with my vet friends and most don't agree either. Some even believe he was panicked because of the decision to do a port call in Vietnam, which is possibly the source, and that affected his decision making as he felt some responsibility. If there were any concerns, the port call could have been cancelled. I've experienced cancelled port calls, some due to medical clearance. Anyway, I would lost faith in his decision making going forward and agreed with the immediate dismissal. As far as how it was handled, I cant say I really cared either way.

PS. Zeke - if you wanted better internet speed, you should have made friends in CVIC. They have ways to provide more bandwidth to comms.

Bill2 - I hope all is well and appreciate you remembering me.

In comment 14867053 montanagiant said:

Quote:

Trying to somehow lessen the effects that COVID is having. Saying that anyone under 50 who dies from it has to have other factors to cause the death (except for a few outliers) is not only assumption, it's wrong. Then to claim that you can get away with doing drugs if you're a nuke is ridiculous on your part. It's one of the most important jobs on a ship. You're all over the place here with nothing but subjective takes based on zero facts.

Are you serious? Even when I was in and they were kicking people out left and right for minor transgressions during the downsizing and supply of new boots was high because of the economy, there were a few nukes on my ship who popped hot for weed and they'd go on restriction and stayed in. You are talking to someone that lived it, and then you are telling me stuff you think is fact that couldn't be further from the truth.

Where are the healthy, young people dying? This isn't the Spanish flu. The problem is what your average person thinks is healthy, isn't. Just because its normal. When I talk to the average person about nutrition, it blows my mind how little they know, or what they believe is healthy is at best neutral. I bring it up because part of your duty of being in the military is to stay fit and healthy. Some don't take it seriously, and conditions have relaxed a bit due to poor retention rates.

Most people act like age is inevitable and the cause of all their woes. That is such bullshit. The older I get the difference between my health and many of my friends comes down to some exercise (especially in a non physically demanding job) and eating healthy. Go look at people that age gracefully. Look at the guys in sports who have long careers. They literally all do those two things. There are people out there that are my age and have health markers of 70 year olds. Those are personal decisions they made to do what feels good now, at the expense of later. Which honestly is crazy to me, because that later is usually an hour after you eat that food when your body is trying to process that shit you put in it.

Forget the subject, its good to see you posting.

I hope all is well for you and your family

Bill

In comment 14867063 montanagiant said:

Quote:

Have no underlying conditions: Quote: Similarly, in New York, 64 percent of patients between the ages of 30 and 39 who died of the disease suffered from a preexisting condition, usually high blood pressure or diabetes. But that still leaves about a third of cases without such a possible contributing factor. link - ( New Window )

KNOWN underlying conditions. Need to read between the lines there. What we know about health care in this country, many never go to the doctor, especially in that age group.

She didn't give a fuck and gave that password to her friends (also don't think she realized why that wasn't a good idea). Captain was using the internet during his hours and the internet was super slow because other people were using it at the time. Dude got the boot. She was actually one of the few attractive women on the ship, but damn, guy was probably a contract away from pension. Hope it was worth it.

In comment 14867072 Dillon in Va said:

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Some know my background, but for those that don't, I served on 3x aircraft carriers (Indy, Kitty, & HST) and completed 6x carrier deployments. From my perspective, the CO was wrong and made it significantly harder for first line supervisors aboard. His letter escalated instead of controlling panic within the crew and put a dent in trusting the chain of command, which is vital to successful missions (wartime or peace). Why should junior enlisted or the crew in general listen to their immediate supervisors / chain or report to watches / job if the CO doesn't and panic spreads? I know that sounds a bit much, but trust me, it would (and has) happen(ed). I'm not talking of a full scale mutiny, but enough trouble from those that always push the system and since everyone is panicking, you have to weigh your approach to discipline. If the CO is still in command, any hard handed discipline would potentially push additional crew to question any decision or orders. One of the biggest reasons the US Navy is so powerful and strikes awe around the world is that we train to chaos. It's basically organized or controlled chaos. I cant count the times we trained for mass casualty events, quarantining mess decks and other spaces,general quarters and donning PPE. I've been injected with 13x shots of Anthrax, 2x doses of Small Pox, etc., while underway. We couldn't even go on a port call if we didn't hand in our "Hazmat" small pox band-aids. I pretty much lived in full MOPP gear for a week straight sitting off the coasts of India and Pakistan when they lit off their nukes. Point being, we trained and trained for "shit hitting the fan" and instilled confidence in the chain of command that they could respond to life threatening events in a calm, assertive demeanor. So while I think the CO's heart was in the right place, his actions weren't. I know it would have made my job a lot harder. I know a few shipmates on the TR and not all praised his actions either. It's a common discussion with my vet friends and most don't agree either. Some even believe he was panicked because of the decision to do a port call in Vietnam, which is possibly the source, and that affected his decision making as he felt some responsibility. If there were any concerns, the port call could have been cancelled. I've experienced cancelled port calls, some due to medical clearance. Anyway, I would lost faith in his decision making going forward and agreed with the immediate dismissal. As far as how it was handled, I cant say I really cared either way. PS. Zeke - if you wanted better internet speed, you should have made friends in CVIC. They have ways to provide more bandwidth to comms. Bill2 - I hope all is well and appreciate you remembering me.

I was on the Kitty Hawk as well. When did you serve ?

Ron in Ninerland: I believe 1998 to 2000

docked next to that bad boy about 6 years ago in Bremerton. How long have you been in? I completely concur with your statements about those that push the line. There is a reason that chain of command is so strict, repressively so. Give someone an inch, they take a mile. There is always a line you need to straddle when in command.

Have you ever read Two Years Behind The Mast? It blew my mind how little deck department changed in 150 years. Like literally the same bullshit. Unfortunately, the mindset of well I went through it so you will to is very alive and well. At the same time though they have a ton more control of your personal life off ship now and regulations are more strict in an effort to "corporatize" the Navy. It's crazy to me they are so restrictive of letting people blow off steam, in an environment that so desperately needs it.

From the nyt story linked this am.

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A Port Call Unravels Sailors aboard the Roosevelt most likely picked up the virus at a port call in Da Nang, Vietnam, on March 5 — just the second visit by an American aircraft carrier to that country since the end of the Vietnam War. At the time, 16 coronavirus cases had been reported in Vietnam, all in the northern part of the country, far from Da Nang. The top Navy officer in the Pacific, Adm. Philip S. Davidson, ordered the long-scheduled visit to proceed as an important show of American military strength in a region increasingly unnerved by Beijing’s growing territorial claims in the South China Sea. Da Nang’s piers are too small for a ship of the Roosevelt’s size to dock. So for its brief port call, it anchored offshore, relying on small boats to ferry the crew to the docks. Crew members posted pictures to social media of rooftop hotel pools and relaxation. One post said, “feelin vietnamazing.” On the fourth and final day in Da Nang, after dozens of sailors had spent at least one night in a hotel where two British nationals tested positive for the virus, the Roosevelt ordered some crew members back to the ship for fear they might be exposed. Those who had stayed at the hotel were immediately isolated. The Roosevelt went back out to sea, and its medical team watched closely for any sign of sickened sailors — a ticking clock during the 14-day period when symptoms would most likely appear. Over those same 14 days, aircraft flew on and off the ship, bringing in supplies from Japan and the Philippines. Then came the announcement over the shipwide loudspeakers at dawn on March 24 as the carrier steamed through the western Pacific. “Set River City 1,” a voice ordered.

Meant to give those not in service or never served on a ship (let alone a carrier) some perspective on this situation; however, they are opinion pieces. I've read both sides of the line on this, and both make good points and some disagreeable points. And while I think it's a great thing to hear experienced people's perspective on this situation, people need to also take those opinions with a grain of salt.

The fact remains that the CO made a call that he deemed necessary whether others agree or not. He accepted the consequences and is recovering from the exact disease that he warned about. Monday morning quarterbacking his decision is good for discussion but won't achieve any form of conclusive acceptance by either side.

Also, while it's only one death at this point, it may (and will most likely be the first of several). And while we can argue that people have signed up for putting their lives on the line, none of these people signed up to die from a disease that spread virulently aboard a ship that they were on, especially when one of the most effective way to avoid it is to socially distance which is impossible on any kind of a ship. The argument that the former acting SecNav made comparing being under pressure from enemy attack to being under pressure from COVID-19 is both tone deaf and outright dumb.

In comment 14867204 RC in MD said:

Quote:

Meant to give those not in service or never served on a ship (let alone a carrier) some perspective on this situation; however, they are opinion pieces. I've read both sides of the line on this, and both make good points and some disagreeable points. And while I think it's a great thing to hear experienced people's perspective on this situation, people need to also take those opinions with a grain of salt. The fact remains that the CO made a call that he deemed necessary whether others agree or not. He accepted the consequences and is recovering from the exact disease that he warned about. Monday morning quarterbacking his decision is good for discussion but won't achieve any form of conclusive acceptance by either side. Also, while it's only one death at this point, it may (and will most likely be the first of several). And while we can argue that people have signed up for putting their lives on the line, none of these people signed up to die from a disease that spread virulently aboard a ship that they were on, especially when one of the most effective way to avoid it is to socially distance which is impossible on any kind of a ship. The argument that the former acting SecNav made comparing being under pressure from enemy attack to being under pressure from COVID-19 is both tone deaf and outright dumb.

Good points. It should also be added that none of us know for sure what Captain Crozier did here. Many assume from the wording of the letter that he engineered it to be leaked to the press, but we don't know that. Unless things have changed since I served, administrative messages such as this are required to be sent with low security. This is done so that more important operational messages can be sent with high security without being impeded. Since this message involved the health and welfare of the crew it could be expected to have had many addressees, including civilians. Anyone could have leaked this message. While we can't know exactly what Crozier did, what Modley did and said was outrageous. Even if Crozier deserves to be relieved or reprimanded do so when it was done was stupid and petty. I believe that the CNO spoke out and said he would have preferred to wait for the results of an investigation. Beyond that though we are in the middle of a national crisis. What if some bad actor tries to take advantage of that, requiring the Roosevelt to be immediately deployed ? Do we really want to do that with a new Captain as well as a lot of new crew ? Some of the other stupid comments Modley made make it hard to believe that he was ever in the Navy. Blaming Crozier for allowing his sailors to go ashore in Vietnam ? That wasn't his call. He was ordered to make this visit. Do we even know the virus came from Vietnam or exclusively from Vietnam ? As was pointed out they had pilots and supplies coming from the P.I. and Japan. The virus also could have come via underway replenishments. Back in my day, those were often done by civilian ships.

In comment 14867204 RC in MD said:

Quote:

Meant to give those not in service or never served on a ship (let alone a carrier) some perspective on this situation; however, they are opinion pieces. I've read both sides of the line on this, and both make good points and some disagreeable points. And while I think it's a great thing to hear experienced people's perspective on this situation, people need to also take those opinions with a grain of salt. The fact remains that the CO made a call that he deemed necessary whether others agree or not. He accepted the consequences and is recovering from the exact disease that he warned about. Monday morning quarterbacking his decision is good for discussion but won't achieve any form of conclusive acceptance by either side. Also, while it's only one death at this point, it may (and will most likely be the first of several). And while we can argue that people have signed up for putting their lives on the line, none of these people signed up to die from a disease that spread virulently aboard a ship that they were on, especially when one of the most effective way to avoid it is to socially distance which is impossible on any kind of a ship. The argument that the former acting SecNav made comparing being under pressure from enemy attack to being under pressure from COVID-19 is both tone deaf and outright dumb.

What is the answer here though? Just take out the ship responsible for SE Asia? This was 8 years ago, but I know my ship on both deployments spent more time in SE Asia than is usual for a ship deployed to the Gulf because of China. I can't imagine much as changed since then and is probably worse. It's not like China gives a fuck about its people, and are probably looking at this as an opportunity to pull off whatever their plans are there, including very minor moves. Remember they think in decades, not quarter to quarter, like we do here in America.

Honestly I'd love to hear your thoughts, but this seemed to be a pissing match that ended up with the resignation of both parties. Almost like that Chappelle skit, when keeping it real goes wrong. Truthfully, I am on the CO's side here, simply because he made a stand on what he thought was best for the men under his command. But I don't think there was a good solution here, sometimes its just like that.

In comment 14867089 Zeke's Alibi said:

Quote:

In comment 14867063 montanagiant said: Quote: Have no underlying conditions: Quote: Similarly, in New York, 64 percent of patients between the ages of 30 and 39 who died of the disease suffered from a preexisting condition, usually high blood pressure or diabetes. But that still leaves about a third of cases without such a possible contributing factor. link - ( New Window ) KNOWN underlying conditions. Need to read between the lines there. What we know about health care in this country, many never go to the doctor, especially in that age group.

LOL...Is that a front flip with a 180 with this newest mental gymnastic post?

In comment 14867084 Zeke's Alibi said:

Quote:

In comment 14867053 montanagiant said: Quote: Trying to somehow lessen the effects that COVID is having. Saying that anyone under 50 who dies from it has to have other factors to cause the death (except for a few outliers) is not only assumption, it's wrong. Then to claim that you can get away with doing drugs if you're a nuke is ridiculous on your part. It's one of the most important jobs on a ship. You're all over the place here with nothing but subjective takes based on zero facts. Are you serious? Even when I was in and they were kicking people out left and right for minor transgressions during the downsizing and supply of new boots was high because of the economy, there were a few nukes on my ship who popped hot for weed and they'd go on restriction and stayed in. You are talking to someone that lived it, and then you are telling me stuff you think is fact that couldn't be further from the truth. Where are the healthy, young people dying? This isn't the Spanish flu. The problem is what your average person thinks is healthy, isn't. Just because its normal. When I talk to the average person about nutrition, it blows my mind how little they know, or what they believe is healthy is at best neutral. I bring it up because part of your duty of being in the military is to stay fit and healthy. Some don't take it seriously, and conditions have relaxed a bit due to poor retention rates. Most people act like age is inevitable and the cause of all their woes. That is such bullshit. The older I get the difference between my health and many of my friends comes down to some exercise (especially in a non physically demanding job) and eating healthy. Go look at people that age gracefully. Look at the guys in sports who have long careers. They literally all do those two things. There are people out there that are my age and have health markers of 70 year olds. Those are personal decisions they made to do what feels good now, at the expense of later. Which honestly is crazy to me, because that later is usually an hour after you eat that food when your body is trying to process that shit you put in it.

Keep on trying to convince yourself brother...Ha

In comment 14867289 montanagiant said:

Quote:

In comment 14867089 Zeke's Alibi said: link - ( New Window ) KNOWN underlying conditions. Need to read between the lines there. What we know about health care in this country, many never go to the doctor, especially in that age group. LOL...Is that a front flip with a 180 with this newest mental gymnastic post?

How are these mental gymnastics? Part of statistics, science, and reading comprehension in general is reading between the lines. In Italy, a country where they have socialized medicine, and preventative health is extremely important for it to work and be cost effective, they found that 99 percent of deaths had other comorbidities. You are cherry picking stats to fit your argument, not using stats to form an opinion.

Multiple times today people make some ad hominem attack on me after what I said, or just gaslighted. That is generally when I know I'm on the right path and I'm dealing with someone that has their belief set and doesn't want to change it.

In comment 14867292 montanagiant said:

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In comment 14867084 Zeke's Alibi said: Quote: In comment 14867053 montanagiant said: Quote: Keep on trying to convince yourself brother...Ha

Trying to convince myself of what?

If the commander of a us naval ship is required to follow protocol for his ship and men to avoid making them vulnerable to attack etc, then isn’t the Chinese govt required to do the same??? They provided the world with basics n I believe lied extensively about the numbers, but shouldn’t they too avoid being vulnerable, as many think the commander should have???

I think China could have done a way better job limiting or banning travel from their country, but it was up to the rest of the worlds leaders to take the initial info provided n act accordingly, and I think the ball was dropped by all...

Thoughts???

Great thread by the way, been following daily since the beginning, lots valuable info n a variety of opinions, really enjoyed Rocco’s early take n I believe, Mcl’s???, among others...

I just posted this a few minutes ago on the Covid thread, but it might b more apropos here...


Just a little music to lighten the mood!!! Cuz if you’re carrying a pic of chairmen Mao your not gonna make it with anyone anyhow...
Revolution - ( New Window )

In comment 14867063 montanagiant said:

Quote:

Have no underlying conditions: Quote: Similarly, in New York, 64 percent of patients between the ages of 30 and 39 who died of the disease suffered from a preexisting condition, usually high blood pressure or diabetes. But that still leaves about a third of cases without such a possible contributing factor. link - ( New Window )

And the biggest preexisting condition was redefined recently to include basically half of all adults.

In comment 14867341 schabadoo said:

Quote:

In comment 14867063 montanagiant said: Quote: Have no underlying conditions: Quote: Similarly, in New York, 64 percent of patients between the ages of 30 and 39 who died of the disease suffered from a preexisting condition, usually high blood pressure or diabetes. But that still leaves about a third of cases without such a possible contributing factor. link - ( New Window ) And the biggest preexisting condition was redefined recently to include basically half of all adults.

But Zeke thinks that there is a secret condition that no one knows about in those dying because......well just because I guess

In comment 14867323 Zeke's Alibi said:

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In comment 14867289 montanagiant said: Quote: In comment 14867089 Zeke's Alibi said: link - ( New Window ) KNOWN underlying conditions. Need to read between the lines there. What we know about health care in this country, many never go to the doctor, especially in that age group. LOL...Is that a front flip with a 180 with this newest mental gymnastic post? How are these mental gymnastics? Part of statistics, science, and reading comprehension in general is reading between the lines. In Italy, a country where they have socialized medicine, and preventative health is extremely important for it to work and be cost effective, they found that 99 percent of deaths had other comorbidities. You are cherry picking stats to fit your argument, not using stats to form an opinion. Multiple times today people make some ad hominem attack on me after what I said, or just gaslighted. That is generally when I know I'm on the right path and I'm dealing with someone that has their belief set and doesn't want to change it.

Your whole argument is based on some whacked theory you have that people don't go to Dr's so, therefore, the 30% with no conditions actually have conditions somehow.

THAT is mental gymnastics. You claim stats yet I just gave some and you twist them with some kind of bogus claim you have because you don't like the fact they blow-up your subjective agenda

In comment 14867279 Zeke's Alibi said:

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What is the answer here though? Just take out the ship responsible for SE Asia? This was 8 years ago, but I know my ship on both deployments spent more time in SE Asia than is usual for a ship deployed to the Gulf because of China. I can't imagine much as changed since then and is probably worse. It's not like China gives a fuck about its people, and are probably looking at this as an opportunity to pull off whatever their plans are there, including very minor moves. Remember they think in decades, not quarter to quarter, like we do here in America. Honestly I'd love to hear your thoughts, but this seemed to be a pissing match that ended up with the resignation of both parties. Almost like that Chappelle skit, when keeping it real goes wrong. Truthfully, I am on the CO's side here, simply because he made a stand on what he thought was best for the men under his command. But I don't think there was a good solution here, sometimes its just like that.

I think the question of our presence in Asia (the sea and the region in general) is a very complex issue that has many different sides. One can argue that we need to continue to maintain our carrier presence as it is our single most impressive representation of our military might. However, others have argued that we are fast approaching the days when our carriers are no longer going to be viewed with such awe from our adversaries as well as our allies. It's been argued that carriers are fast approaching the days when it is more a liability than capability without a drastic change in our tactics as well as capabilities (drones over manned aircrafts, smaller strike groups that are able to move faster, etc.)

If we were to temporarily remove the presence of one of our carriers in the region, will the Chinese or other regional players take advantage of its absence? Perhaps. Or maybe China realizes that American carrier presence continues to be nothing more than an archaic way to deter others from taking primacy of an area when even they realize that their increasing A2/AD capabilities essentially makes our carriers a symbol for American military might more than actual threat to their nation and influence in the region.

In my opinion, the danger posed by removing the TR temporarily is worth the benefits of saving lives as well as potentially shortening the timeframe that it may actually become combat ineffective. Also, the damage the removal of TR may do to regional stability or security is probably far less than has already been done in recent years by our conflicting and confusing security policies in the region with our allies and adversaries alike. What I'm saying is that the Navy definitely isn't the reason for its own diminished impact in the region, whether it's the presence of a carrier battle group or not.

Now, this is coming from a Marine and not a Navy surfaces warfare guy, so take this with a huge grain of salt. However, I'm also involved in the region academically through the Marine Corps as well as being tangentially involved professionally (as a civilian) in the intelligence field, so I feel that I have a decent grasp of the security situation in the region as well as the impact of our security policies on our adversaries and allies.

Id push back on the wisdom of the moment on carriers. Especially the lanes from the Straights of Hormuz to Japan

Its a very involved conversation ( and the "strategic view") of that part of the world is tipped significantly given the pandemic/global demand consequences.

But I suspect we will miller the thread even more than the diet miller already has

In comment 14867390 Bill2 said:

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Id push back on the wisdom of the moment on carriers. Especially the lanes from the Straights of Hormuz to Japan Its a very involved conversation ( and the "strategic view") of that part of the world is tipped significantly given the pandemic/global demand consequences. But I suspect we will miller the thread even more than the diet miller already has

Haha...I agree. I personally don't have anything against carriers. But I also don't believe that it has nearly the impact militarily as it did just a decade ago. When you have anti-ship missiles able to reach out hundreds of miles or proliferation of drone technologies, the impact of carriers is more political and psychological than military. But as I've said earlier, I'm not a Navy guy so this is nothing more than my opinion.

In comment 14867349 montanagiant said:

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In comment 14867323 Zeke's Alibi said: Quote: In comment 14867289 montanagiant said: Quote: In comment 14867089 Zeke's Alibi said: link - ( New Window ) KNOWN underlying conditions. Need to read between the lines there. What we know about health care in this country, many never go to the doctor, especially in that age group. LOL...Is that a front flip with a 180 with this newest mental gymnastic post? How are these mental gymnastics? Part of statistics, science, and reading comprehension in general is reading between the lines. In Italy, a country where they have socialized medicine, and preventative health is extremely important for it to work and be cost effective, they found that 99 percent of deaths had other comorbidities. You are cherry picking stats to fit your argument, not using stats to form an opinion. Multiple times today people make some ad hominem attack on me after what I said, or just gaslighted. That is generally when I know I'm on the right path and I'm dealing with someone that has their belief set and doesn't want to change it. Your whole argument is based on some whacked theory you have that people don't go to Dr's so, therefore, the 30% with no conditions actually have conditions somehow. THAT is mental gymnastics. You claim stats yet I just gave some and you twist them with some kind of bogus claim you have because you don't like the fact they blow-up your subjective agenda

Its that the 30 percent of people have conditions, but haven't been identified because they don't go to the doctor. I mean dude, do we even live in the same country? I'm 33 and I'm practically the only one I know that has a yearly physical in my friend and acquaintance group because I have the VA.

Italy found that 99 percent of people that died had a coexisting condition. In countries with socialized medicine people generally go for preventative care, and it is encouraged, because it is cheaper and keeps costs down. I know this because I worked in that industry for a bit and got extensive training on it. So what is your reason between the discrepancy in Italy and our numbers.

This isn't some fucking giant leap. It just takes a bit of critical thinking and questioning what the numbers mean and what story they are telling you.

In comment 14867397 RC in MD said:

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In comment 14867390 Bill2 said: Quote: Id push back on the wisdom of the moment on carriers. Especially the lanes from the Straights of Hormuz to Japan Its a very involved conversation ( and the "strategic view") of that part of the world is tipped significantly given the pandemic/global demand consequences. But I suspect we will miller the thread even more than the diet miller already has Haha...I agree. I personally don't have anything against carriers. But I also don't believe that it has nearly the impact militarily as it did just a decade ago. When you have anti-ship missiles able to reach out hundreds of miles or proliferation of drone technologies, the impact of carriers is more political and psychological than military. But as I've said earlier, I'm not a Navy guy so this is nothing more than my opinion.

I actually kind of wavered back in forth on whether Carriers are a giant waste of money. That was until I saw the Sea Whiz are whatever it is on the fantail in action and boy was I impressed. Also deaf, but mostly impressed. I don't expect you to divulge state secrets, but it always seemed to me that the antimissile tech was way ahead of our competitors. Sounds like that isn't necessarily the case anymore

In comment 14867401 Zeke's Alibi said:

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In comment 14867397 RC in MD said: Quote: In comment 14867390 Bill2 said: Quote: Id push back on the wisdom of the moment on carriers. Especially the lanes from the Straights of Hormuz to Japan Its a very involved conversation ( and the "strategic view") of that part of the world is tipped significantly given the pandemic/global demand consequences. But I suspect we will miller the thread even more than the diet miller already has Haha...I agree. I personally don't have anything against carriers. But I also don't believe that it has nearly the impact militarily as it did just a decade ago. When you have anti-ship missiles able to reach out hundreds of miles or proliferation of drone technologies, the impact of carriers is more political and psychological than military. But as I've said earlier, I'm not a Navy guy so this is nothing more than my opinion. I actually kind of wavered back in forth on whether Carriers are a giant waste of money. That was until I saw the Sea Whiz are whatever it is on the fantail in action and boy was I impressed. Also deaf, but mostly impressed. I don't expect you to divulge state secrets, but it always seemed to me that the antimissile tech was way ahead of our competitors. Sounds like that isn't necessarily the case anymore

Yeah...I love the Phalanx CIWS system, but despite its amazing capabilities, it's limited on how many targets it can engage. Even our amphibious assault ships have the CIWS, but whenever we would traverse the Suez or the Hormuz, the Navy employed my snipers as well as the Light Armored Vehicles to provide close in defense against small crafts because the CIWS can only engage so many targets before it's overwhelmed. Now think about a coordinated attack with a number of anti-ship missiles, small crafts, and even weaponized drones, and you're going to be overwhelmed no matter how many F/A-18s or F-35s you have onboard. That's why you want to have the best defense in depth arranged with destroyers, cruisers, and frigates when it comes to carriers. And really, you don't even have to sink a carrier to make it combat ineffective. You need to just damage the deck enough for it not to be able to launch aircrafts.

And yes, the Chinese and Russians have proliferated some lethal anti-ship missiles in the past decade. It's to the point that the Marines Corps is changing its approach to amphibious operations in the future and are getting rid of it's armored capabilities.

disablement. I was on Hose team 1 for GQ. Somehow I was able to skirt on having any responsibilities for 6 months until they needed to replace someone and as I was sitting in the mess decks coking and joking I just heard where's Mann at. Smiles went to my soul crushed real fast. Not that I hated doing it, it was actually kind of fun, but I was so exhausted and had chronic neck pain/back all the time as is and then I had to force a shower into my day because I'd be drenched in sweat.

A few thoughts went through my mind though. In the rare event the ship were attacked, if they were prepped they'd hit the areas I was responsible for. Two, I'd probably die. Three, fuck the esws pin. Somehow I'm less qualified to fight fires than people that got some meaningless signatures and took a bullshit test. I don't know if they are still doing it, but I remember a massive push for it and it was mandatory for reenlistment. Of course that has probably change as they are having trouble retaining people as is. Although that will probably change as well as the economy goes into the shitter.

will follow but the Captain being relieved was the right move whatever his motives were. I think so many sailors cheering shows a ship not focussed on the mission first and reflects poorly on the Captain.

China has spent tremendously on its military in the last couple decades. It will be interesting to see the world response economically from Covid 19 on China and how that impacts their spending in the future.

In comment 14867425 Lines of Scrimmage said:

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will follow but the Captain being relieved was the right move whatever his motives were. I think so many sailors cheering shows a ship not focussed on the mission first and reflects poorly on the Captain. China has spent tremendously on its military in the last couple decades. It will be interesting to see the world response economically from Covid 19 on China and how that impacts their spending in the future.

I'm trying to think what it would be like on the ship and honestly a whole bunch of those people are probably pissed at an opportunity to just dock at Guam for a month or wherever they were. Plus God knows what they believe about COVID with such little information and the sensalization of the news networks. There is also the sentiment that you are constantly getting fucked by the Navy's big old dick. Every damn day when you are deployed, with no escape. At least shore side you can go out and get away from that shit. They saw their Captain as someone in command that was actually standing up for them, which is a rarity.

In comment 14867398 Zeke's Alibi said:

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In comment 14867349 montanagiant said: Quote: In comment 14867323 Zeke's Alibi said: Quote: In comment 14867289 montanagiant said: Quote: In comment 14867089 Zeke's Alibi said: link - ( New Window ) KNOWN underlying conditions. Need to read between the lines there. What we know about health care in this country, many never go to the doctor, especially in that age group. LOL...Is that a front flip with a 180 with this newest mental gymnastic post? How are these mental gymnastics? Part of statistics, science, and reading comprehension in general is reading between the lines. In Italy, a country where they have socialized medicine, and preventative health is extremely important for it to work and be cost effective, they found that 99 percent of deaths had other comorbidities. You are cherry picking stats to fit your argument, not using stats to form an opinion. Multiple times today people make some ad hominem attack on me after what I said, or just gaslighted. That is generally when I know I'm on the right path and I'm dealing with someone that has their belief set and doesn't want to change it. Your whole argument is based on some whacked theory you have that people don't go to Dr's so, therefore, the 30% with no conditions actually have conditions somehow. THAT is mental gymnastics. You claim stats yet I just gave some and you twist them with some kind of bogus claim you have because you don't like the fact they blow-up your subjective agenda Its that the 30 percent of people have conditions, but haven't been identified because they don't go to the doctor. I mean dude, do we even live in the same country? I'm 33 and I'm practically the only one I know that has a yearly physical in my friend and acquaintance group because I have the VA. Italy found that 99 percent of people that died had a coexisting condition. In countries with socialized medicine people generally go for preventative care, and it is encouraged, because it is cheaper and keeps costs down. I know this because I worked in that industry for a bit and got extensive training on it. So what is your reason between the discrepancy in Italy and our numbers. This isn't some fucking giant leap. It just takes a bit of critical thinking and questioning what the numbers mean and what story they are telling you.

Once again your doing your game of twisting factual info.

You have zero ideas if they had conditions or not. Yet you sit here and state unequivocally that they did with zero basis of anything other than this warped theory you have about people not going to a Dr when they might have a condition because you know a few people who do that.

Just like the claim, you can smoke dope as a Nuke on a carrier based on what you saw years ago and nothing comes from it.

You keep demanding stats and facts yet you present none of your own. It's getting laughable at this point

In comment 14867425 Lines of Scrimmage said:

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will follow but the Captain being relieved was the right move whatever his motives were. I think so many sailors cheering shows a ship not focussed on the mission first and reflects poorly on the Captain. China has spent tremendously on its military in the last couple decades. It will be interesting to see the world response economically from Covid 19 on China and how that impacts their spending in the future.

I don't understand why people keep arguing that mission comes first and if you take care of your people, it's the wrong thing to do. Of course mission accomplishments come first. Nowhere, your most important job is to take care of the people you lead so that they are combat effective. No great leader ever succeeded because they put their men and women second to the mission as someone posted previously in this thread regarding some dumbassed shit like "mission first, people second."

Captain Crozier made his bed and he is lying in it, and there is nothing that will change that. However, when you blindly always put the mission ahead of the welfare of your people, you are going to fail as a leader. You practice judgement and prudence to make the call when the mission is not worth the cost of your people. That's what leaders do. Whether you agree or disagree with the Captain's decision is immaterial at this point, but spare me the shortsighted nonsense about mission always trumping the welfare of those being led.

That should be "However, your most important job is"...ugh...damn autocorrect.

yes, an enemy might be able to disable a carrier.

The carrier is one node in a multilevel defense system

If you were to attack a carrier, the number of possible firepower system than could be bought against any chosen target within 24 four hours is significant.

Think of the problem as someone has to decide to attack the USA not just the carrier. Missiles, rockets, strategic bombers, submarines, bombers of all different kinds and the locales to respond from present a huge war gaming problem for any attacker.

Its part of a system not the system. If you are on one then it feels like the core of the system. If you attack its one vehicle for projecting lethal response.

all these force projection systems have pros and cons and strengths and weaknesses. And carriers have a range of missions...for some of which they are ideally suited

That's for starters.

In comment 14867504 Bill2 said:

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yes, an enemy might be able to disable a carrier. The carrier is one node in a multilevel defense system If you were to attack a carrier, the number of possible firepower system than could be bought against any chosen target within 24 four hours is significant. Think of the problem as someone has to decide to attack the USA not just the carrier. Missiles, rockets, strategic bombers, submarines, bombers of all different kinds and the locales to respond from present a huge war gaming problem for any attacker. Its part of a system not the system. If you are on one then it feels like the core of the system. If you attack its one vehicle for projecting lethal response. all these force projection systems have pros and cons and strengths and weaknesses. And carriers have a range of missions...for some of which they are ideally suited That's for starters.

No doubt. That's why I stated that the carrier is more important to us for its other impact more so than the military capabilities it brings to the table. Not trying to state that there are hierarchy in what the US willing to lose, but there is in fact one. I'll use Iran as an example. We hit a key Iranian leader in Iraq. They retaliate against our ground forces, and that can slowly escalate tension. But if they decided to go after and actually sink or moderately damage our carrier, it's game on.

Carrier has become our symbol of military might that is to be protected at any cost. And while I believe that its actual military utility is diminishing, it stands for something far more than the aircrafts it can launch. That's why when a situation becomes heated anywhere in the world, our government announcing that it's deploying a carrier battle group always has such a significant impact on that situation.

So while carrier itself is a diminishing military capability, its symbolism and importance to our strategy and policies is still probably greater than any other military asset.

In comment 14867478 RC in MD said:

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In comment 14867425 Lines of Scrimmage said: Quote: will follow but the Captain being relieved was the right move whatever his motives were. I think so many sailors cheering shows a ship not focussed on the mission first and reflects poorly on the Captain. China has spent tremendously on its military in the last couple decades. It will be interesting to see the world response economically from Covid 19 on China and how that impacts their spending in the future. I don't understand why people keep arguing that mission comes first and if you take care of your people, it's the wrong thing to do. Of course mission accomplishments come first. Nowhere, your most important job is to take care of the people you lead so that they are combat effective. No great leader ever succeeded because they put their men and women second to the mission as someone posted previously in this thread regarding some dumbassed shit like "mission first, people second." Captain Crozier made his bed and he is lying in it, and there is nothing that will change that. However, when you blindly always put the mission ahead of the welfare of your people, you are going to fail as a leader. You practice judgement and prudence to make the call when the mission is not worth the cost of your people. That's what leaders do. Whether you agree or disagree with the Captain's decision is immaterial at this point, but spare me the shortsighted nonsense about mission always trumping the welfare of those being led.

Where did I say that you don't take care of the sailors? All I said is that is was right he was relieved and that the cheering can also be further evidence in the big picture of things that perhaps they did not understand this which is a reflection of his leadership.

Agree

And I think there is a lot of evidence that failed states and rouge actors and places of chaos are a more frequent threat than the actual actions of large states where the elite have a rent extraction system they wish to preserve.

for those states and the majority in the world, the arrival of tons of missiles and 90 state of the art planes armed to the teeth and flown by leading edge trained pilots taking off 24/7 if need be - changes the calculus even for fanatics and psychopaths

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Where did I say that you don't take care of the sailors? All I said is that is was right he was relieved and that the cheering can also be further evidence in the big picture of things that perhaps they did not understand this which is a reflection of his leadership.

That's the thing. You make it seem like their cheering him is another sign of his failing as a leader. I am 100% sure that he understands the importance of mission accomplishment far better than you and I. And I'm certain that he made a calculated decision to put his people before the mission based on a profound time spent thinking things over as he most definitely knew that this may be a career killer. So while I agree with you that his firing was warranted, you make it sound like it was a failing on his part to make this decision while I believe that he made a judgement call that something was more important than his carrier being out at sea or his career.

You don't have to be liked as a leader, but you should be respected as one. Some people can't tell the difference. I'm sure that his people respected him as a leader because they felt that he had their welfare and best interest as priority through these extraordinary circumstances.

only 35 nations have a larger total airforce than a modern carrier.

only 7 countries have more planes of the same generation than a US Carrier.

Doubt any have equivalent communication, navigation, firing systems in the hands of equivalent pilots

In comment 14867565 Bill2 said:

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Agree And I think there is a lot of evidence that failed states and rouge actors and places of chaos are a more frequent threat than the actual actions of large states where the elite have a rent extraction system they wish to preserve. for those states and the majority in the world, the arrival of tons of missiles and 90 state of the art planes armed to the teeth and flown by leading edge trained pilots taking off 24/7 if need be - changes the calculus even for fanatics and psychopaths

The new vertical launch systems on the Arleighs and cruisers add quite a punch without risking pilots' lives. I believe an Arleigh Burke can hold up to 96 cruise missile(although the package is mixed and tailored per mission.) That is quite a bit of fire power in and of itself.

how they were the biggest habitual line steppers. To the point that the ship I was on cruised into Iranian territories as a show of force. Kind of like what the fuck are you going to do. I concur that the show of force thing is the only real legitimate use of carriers. I would muse a lot on the bridge how any of this is worth it. And many on the ship were convinced that we were there to fight terrorists and what not (which was a subsidiary of our mission) but the main goal is to keep the strait open and keep the Iranians in check. Always surprised how little your average enlisted knew about the mission they were out there for. Life in the Navy I guess.

yep.

when one looks into it...a carrier group is a ton of force moving into an area with a strike radius that approaches 1000 miles.

ridiculous

Energy is not just an industrial marker.

Warmth, feeding children, food, health care, clothing and blankets for billion all depend on the daily line from Ras Tanura

billions

preserves our status as the worlds reserve currency.

And that competitive advantage puts us about 20 Trillion ahead of any other nation

In comment 14867574 Bill2 said:

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only 35 nations have a larger total airforce than a modern carrier. only 7 countries have more planes of the same generation than a US Carrier. Doubt any have equivalent communication, navigation, firing systems in the hands of equivalent pilots

I'm definitely not arguing that our military forces (especially the carriers) aren't absolutely awesome and powerful. However, in this times when asymmetric tactics, techniques, and procedures as well as ever increasing availability of sophisticated technologies at the cheap are making rogue players and near peer adversaries able to pose non-traditional threat to our forces, a carrier becomes a huge target that may become vulnerable to threats that we haven't prepared for.

The small fast boats I'm Hormuz have become a huge issue for our forces, hence the use of Marine LAVs on decks of amphibious assault ships when they're traversing or floating in the straits. Now think about what we've seen of synchronized drones for Olympics and other events where hundreds of drones can do crazy maneuvers. Make them weaponized, increase their range, and they can overwhelm the defensive systems of any ship we have. The verticle launch system shooting the most advanced surface to air missiles wouldn't be able to stop them, nor can our CIWS on ships. A few of these getting through and hitting the deck of a carrier will turn that into a floating parking lot.

And we're not even talking to some of these Chinese and Russian made coastal defense missiles that are becoming so leathal that you can't come within 200 or more miles from the coast without putting your assets in danger.

These are conversations we're having even at my field grade level at Command and Staff College as we talk about how we (USMC) can better support the Navy with its anti-access/area denial threats. It’s definitely a scary time to be a Navy commander.

harassing ships in their little 12 meter rhibs. Bastids are actually sitting in Oman water while doing it.

Dumbass IMO created a traffic separation scheme just of the Iranian coast where the Northbound lane was 9 miles off their coast and the Southbound was just about inside 12 miles. So you traveled well inside their waters for awhile. I used that separation zone once. Then thought about my anti-piracy protection team(former NSW) and if the bastids ever tried to board us while in those waters how they may try to detain them for questioning. Never used it again.

In comment 14867589 Bill2 said:

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Energy is not just an industrial marker. Warmth, feeding children, food, health care, clothing and blankets for billion all depend on the daily line from Ras Tanura

100% in agreement. While we have the ability to destroy any military or nation, we are best served to make them respect our strength and resolve (or at least be scared of facing us) to maintain stability. But the scary part is that we are moving towards revisionist history where our near peer adversaries will seek to change global calculus against our interests.

I had a spontaneous pneumothorax in 11th grade. Was walking down the hallway between classes, bullshitting with my friends, then felt like I got shot.

Went to the nurse, said it felt like a heart attack. She had me raise my arm up, and asked if it hurt way more -- it did, and she was like "I think your long is being collapsed".

Got rushed to the ER, had a chest tube put in, was told to wait 2-3 weeks to have the air come out (it was a burst alveoli).

That didn't help, so I had to have invasive surgery to chop off 33% of my left lung. I'm at risk as fuck. I will likely not come back from pneumonia that requires a respirator.

I'm at risk with a "pre-existing condition". I'm 31 years old (as of just one month ago) with a ton of family and friends that love me, and definitely not "at risk" person due to my "own choices". I'm not some casualty you can just write off, and it's really fucking crazy for you to say that type of shit.

It's not like everyone that's met me after high school knows about my partial lung, and I can guarantee that there's plenty of people you personally know that have pre-existing conditions which you DON'T know about, that are 100% not their fault.

In comment 14867446 montanagiant said:

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In comment 14867398 Zeke's Alibi said: Once again your doing your game of twisting factual info. You have zero ideas if they had conditions or not. Yet you sit here and state unequivocally that they did with zero basis of anything other than this warped theory you have about people not going to a Dr when they might have a condition because you know a few people who do that. Just like the claim, you can smoke dope as a Nuke on a carrier based on what you saw years ago and nothing comes from it. You keep demanding stats and facts yet you present none of your own. It's getting laughable at this point

I'm not twisting factual info. You are taking stats without any context. You have no idea that they for a fact had no pre existing conditions because of the uniqueness of the American healthcare system. I did 8 weeks of training on this for a healthcare IT company I worked Sales for. The vast majority of people go to the Dr only when they absolutely need to. This in turn makes our health care more expensive. Private insurers don't give a shit because they only care about their profits at the end of the day quarter by quarter and they just increase premiums and deductibles year after year. Which becomes increasingly expensive as our population becomes unhealthier. There seems to be some awareness now about what is and isn't healthy and I've noticed the amount of items that aren't made with total bullshit at grocery stores has gone from a couple items storewide to every food vertical.

There is a huge push in medicare/medicaid for something called MIPS. Part of this program is to push preventative health because its cheaper. It isn't some mystery that people under the age of 40 rarely go to the damn doctor because essentially you are paying out of pocket for visits.

This was 10 years ago when people were lining up to join the military, and they were force discharging people out because they didn't advance past E5. I was in a temp assignment with a few of those bummed out bastards and they all had gold stripes (never went on restriction/got in trouble). Most them weren't the brightest bulbs, but that would absolutely suck because the only reason to reenlist is to do 20 and get the pension unless you have some sweet situation/rating/MOS.

Even then it was hit or miss whether they would get kicked out for weed. Scores for nukes continually drop. It's the harder vocation to fill because people smart people do some research and realize most the bullshit they sell you on is exactly that. 100,000 dollar job out of the Navy was one of them. What they leave out is you generally need to move out to the middle of nowhere outside of an expensive place to get even close to that. More like 70k in South Jersey somewhere if I remember right. And thats after 6 years, you have no 4 year degree to fall back on, and your technical skills aren't very transferrable. And that is after 6 years of suck which I was able to find from research on the internet. Pretty much the worst job in the Navy and not close to worth it for the exit ops. The people they are looking for generally have better opps, even within the military, and see through the bullshit they are getting sold.

Shit if deck department had that type of information I sure as shit would not have signed up for that and would have signed the AECF contract they gave me. I didn't like the idea of signing for six, was dead set on doing cryptonetworks/intel, and figured I'm like the perfect candidate for the military outside the fact I'm a bit of an independent thinker/freebird. Crush my ASVAB and physical tests though, and the recruiters, and others throughout the boot camp process, told me I could pick any job I wanted to at 6 months with a good review. One guy looked at my paperwork and started laughing, he's like why you going in undes. All turned out to be bullshit though. And I wasn't close to the only one in a similar situation. Give smart people no hope, no goals to work towards, and it creates a very toxic work environment especially when they were sold a bag of bullshit. The recruiter doesn't give a fuck though because he doesn't have to deal with it.

In comment 14867600 Sonic Youth said:

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I had a spontaneous pneumothorax in 11th grade. Was walking down the hallway between classes, bullshitting with my friends, then felt like I got shot. Went to the nurse, said it felt like a heart attack. She had me raise my arm up, and asked if it hurt way more -- it did, and she was like "I think your long is being collapsed". Got rushed to the ER, had a chest tube put in, was told to wait 2-3 weeks to have the air come out (it was a burst alveoli). That didn't help, so I had to have invasive surgery to chop off 33% of my left lung. I'm at risk as fuck. I will likely not come back from pneumonia that requires a respirator. I'm at risk with a "pre-existing condition". I'm 31 years old (as of just one month ago) with a ton of family and friends that love me, and definitely not "at risk" person due to my "own choices". I'm not some casualty you can just write off, and it's really fucking crazy for you to say that type of shit. It's not like everyone that's met me after high school knows about my partial lung, and I can guarantee that there's plenty of people you personally know that have pre-existing conditions which you DON'T know about, that are 100% not their fault.

Dude context. We are talking about people in the military here. I'm sorry to hear about your situation, but there was no way the military would allow you in. If that type of shit happened while you were in, they medical board you out. And suffice to say, yes you are at risk from no fault of your own, but you are an outlier. Yes, there are sick people that are sick from no fault of their own, but when they are talking about diabetes and high blood pressure, these are preventable diseases.

In comment 14867592 Bill2 said:

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preserves our status as the worlds reserve currency. And that competitive advantage puts us about 20 Trillion ahead of any other nation

I'm in, as you like to say, violent agreement with you. Explaining to other sailors that just because we are technically fighting a war over oil (that is a rallying cry of the detractors) that doesn't make us the bad guys. I just felt a much better use of our resources that were spent on that went to green energy so we can get away from that god forsaken place that refuses to move into a more liberal, free open thinking society.

Zeke. Until then we are where we are

I point out the goal is not oil...the goal is stability.

There is not social justice for billions until there is stability.

Ronnie, I am familiar with the new Marine direction and in full agreement for all the reasons stated.

( what is the vulnerability of a swarm of drones? The nexus of its originating signals and coordination?). My point is Im pretty sure we can hopscotch new threats defensively and offensively.

I wouldn't want to be playing anyone else's cards right now.

Good night all

In comment 14867628 Zeke's Alibi said:

Quote:

In comment 14867592 Bill2 said: Quote: preserves our status as the worlds reserve currency. And that competitive advantage puts us about 20 Trillion ahead of any other nation I'm in, as you like to say, violent agreement with you. Explaining to other sailors that just because we are technically fighting a war over oil (that is a rallying cry of the detractors) that doesn't make us the bad guys. I just felt a much better use of our resources that were spent on that went to green energy so we can get away from that god forsaken place that refuses to move into a more liberal, free open thinking society.

Sort of tangential to related to you talking to your fellow sailors, I've had some interesting interactions with my civilian friends. A number of my friends (and some great friends) from high school asked me back before 2011 if I felt like deploying to Iraq (not so much Afghanistan though...strangely) was a mistake on my part. I know what they are trying to get at in a polite manner since many were against our invasion of Iraq and hated the president at the time. My answer to them always in a polite but nonchalant manner was that I was too low on the totem pole to worry about anything other than ensuring that my Marines were taken care of and that I accomplished the mission on the ground, which was to conduct counterinsurgency/counterterrorism mission while working with the Iraqi people. I deflected saying that as a Lieutenant and Captain, I really had more pressing matter to focus on than figuring out geopolitical matters. They always seemed so let down, especially since as a fellow liberal (there are some of us Jarheads, who are liberals), they expected me to validate their feelings and opinions.

Ok...so that wasn't too related, but I thought you would find it sort of humorous.

In comment 14867642 Bill2 said:

Quote:

Zeke. Until then we are where we are I point out the goal is not oil...the goal is stability. There is not social justice for billions until there is stability. Ronnie, I am familiar with the new Marine direction and in full agreement for all the reasons stated. ( what is the vulnerability of a swarm of drones? The nexus of its originating signals and coordination?). My point is Im pretty sure we can hopscotch new threats defensively and offensively. I wouldn't want to be playing anyone else's cards right now. Good night all

Yes, with enough focus, we can most definitely come up with means to defend against any threat. But you know how lumbering we are when it comes to putting our focus on something that needs to be done. Look at the total disaster that is the Joint Strike Fighter development and procurement. So while I'm sure that we can find a way to counter a swarm of drones by going after the signal, knowing our history, it won't happen until we actually see such a threat and have been stung badly by it (with resulting loss of lives). We have always and still are so enamored with the bright shiny toys that pragmatic approaches and solutions don't necessarily win out, especially if it doesn't have some big dollar benefit to some congressmen and their districts/states.

We are pretty reactive in our military approach, and I'm certain that our next conflict will also be one of reactive nature where we will adjust after the fact instead of actually dictating others to adjust to us.

Have a wonderful evening.

In comment 14867626 Zeke's Alibi said:

Quote:

In comment 14867600 Sonic Youth said: Quote: I had a spontaneous pneumothorax in 11th grade. Was walking down the hallway between classes, bullshitting with my friends, then felt like I got shot. Went to the nurse, said it felt like a heart attack. She had me raise my arm up, and asked if it hurt way more -- it did, and she was like "I think your long is being collapsed". Got rushed to the ER, had a chest tube put in, was told to wait 2-3 weeks to have the air come out (it was a burst alveoli). That didn't help, so I had to have invasive surgery to chop off 33% of my left lung. I'm at risk as fuck. I will likely not come back from pneumonia that requires a respirator. I'm at risk with a "pre-existing condition". I'm 31 years old (as of just one month ago) with a ton of family and friends that love me, and definitely not "at risk" person due to my "own choices". I'm not some casualty you can just write off, and it's really fucking crazy for you to say that type of shit. It's not like everyone that's met me after high school knows about my partial lung, and I can guarantee that there's plenty of people you personally know that have pre-existing conditions which you DON'T know about, that are 100% not their fault. Dude context. We are talking about people in the military here. I'm sorry to hear about your situation, but there was no way the military would allow you in. If that type of shit happened while you were in, they medical board you out. And suffice to say, yes you are at risk from no fault of your own, but you are an outlier. Yes, there are sick people that are sick from no fault of their own, but when they are talking about diabetes and high blood pressure, these are preventable diseases.

I didn't quote the post I was replying to, but it was before this thread went into full military conversation. Also, you've said the same thing many times in other threads. So it was a general response to you -- just one I made while reading your posts a few pages back in this one.

In comment 14867644 RC in MD said:

Quote:

In comment 14867628 Zeke's Alibi said: Quote: In comment 14867592 Bill2 said: Quote: preserves our status as the worlds reserve currency. And that competitive advantage puts us about 20 Trillion ahead of any other nation I'm in, as you like to say, violent agreement with you. Explaining to other sailors that just because we are technically fighting a war over oil (that is a rallying cry of the detractors) that doesn't make us the bad guys. I just felt a much better use of our resources that were spent on that went to green energy so we can get away from that god forsaken place that refuses to move into a more liberal, free open thinking society. Sort of tangential to related to you talking to your fellow sailors, I've had some interesting interactions with my civilian friends. A number of my friends (and some great friends) from high school asked me back before 2011 if I felt like deploying to Iraq (not so much Afghanistan though...strangely) was a mistake on my part. I know what they are trying to get at in a polite manner since many were against our invasion of Iraq and hated the president at the time. My answer to them always in a polite but nonchalant manner was that I was too low on the totem pole to worry about anything other than ensuring that my Marines were taken care of and that I accomplished the mission on the ground, which was to conduct counterinsurgency/counterterrorism mission while working with the Iraqi people. I deflected saying that as a Lieutenant and Captain, I really had more pressing matter to focus on than figuring out geopolitical matters. They always seemed so let down, especially since as a fellow liberal (there are some of us Jarheads, who are liberals), they expected me to validate their feelings and opinions. Ok...so that wasn't too related, but I thought you would find it sort of humorous.

One of my best friends from my old job is a liberal Marine who served in Iraq and we had a similar convo and he had the same response. It was framed differently though - I asked him if, looking back, our country as a whole should have went in. He said in hindsight no, not in the fashion we did - but once he was there, he was was worried about his brothers, and nothing else mattered. He said he ruminated on everything else when back, but at that time, everything else was immaterial

In comment 14867644 RC in MD said:

Quote:

In comment 14867628 Zeke's Alibi said: Quote: In comment 14867592 Bill2 said: I'm in, as you like to say, violent agreement with you. Explaining to other sailors that just because we are technically fighting a war over oil (that is a rallying cry of the detractors) that doesn't make us the bad guys. I just felt a much better use of our resources that were spent on that went to green energy so we can get away from that god forsaken place that refuses to move into a more liberal, free open thinking society. Sort of tangential to related to you talking to your fellow sailors, I've had some interesting interactions with my civilian friends. A number of my friends (and some great friends) from high school asked me back before 2011 if I felt like deploying to Iraq (not so much Afghanistan though...strangely) was a mistake on my part. I know what they are trying to get at in a polite manner since many were against our invasion of Iraq and hated the president at the time. My answer to them always in a polite but nonchalant manner was that I was too low on the totem pole to worry about anything other than ensuring that my Marines were taken care of and that I accomplished the mission on the ground, which was to conduct counterinsurgency/counterterrorism mission while working with the Iraqi people. I deflected saying that as a Lieutenant and Captain, I really had more pressing matter to focus on than figuring out geopolitical matters. They always seemed so let down, especially since as a fellow liberal (there are some of us Jarheads, who are liberals), they expected me to validate their feelings and opinions. Ok...so that wasn't too related, but I thought you would find it sort of humorous.

Yeah I can totally understand that. I was kind of in a weird spot because growing up in a place heavily affected by 9/11 and could see the destruction from up my street I got swept up in the pro war furor (happened when I was 15). I fucking hated school and loved the idea of joining the military. My Dad (A Korean War Vet) my dads buddy (few purple hearts) and their friend (MOH winner who I won't name drop)convinced me otherwise. Said if you really still want to do it, graduate college, then go in. Fast forward 3 years and 6 colleges later the messaging soon became when the fuck you going to join the military. And like my father, and his father before him, I joined the military.

Although at that time I was pretty against the war, but figured I could pick any job I want maxing out the ASVAB and PT tests and going in with enough credit to join as an E3. Boy was I wrong and not sure if you play poker, but I got dealt 2-7 offsuit. My military "career" was practically murphy's law in action. Whenever I talk to kids thinking about it though I always give them my number and tell them call me before you sign anything. Not that I would talk them out of it, the opposite sometimes in fact, but at least I'd let them know all the shit that your recruiters don't tell you. I was at a bit of disadvantage because of the massive change the military had just started to go through (similar to the one that happened in the 80's when the drug war was hyped) and the people I could grab advice that were enlisted were mostly ten years older than me and sf.

But while I was in I had a lot of time to think about it, and I don't really think that the war was a mistake in Iraq. It seems like every geopolitical expert in the region that I read about or talked to seemed to be consensus that our exit "plan" didn't even have a marginal chance for success. Shit I'm glad to see Bill2 posting because I read some of that information from him. But when the people in charge were making the right decisions for all the wrong reasons they clearly didn't give a shit about the aftermath. I hate to be cynical, but it truly bothers me that there are people like that out there and they often find themselves in power, because power seems to attract some unsavory characters.

Anyway its always funny to me that people have this stereotype of people in the military as all the same. Yes, it generally more populated by the more conservative side, but it truly was the first place I experienced a total melting pot of American peoples and culture. And I grew up in North Jersey, a melting pot of its own.

I was in my last year at the Naval Academy when 9/11 happened. Still remember that morning like it was yesterday. I had already chosen to go into the Marine Corps, so the attack didn't influence my decision for my service branch. However, part of me knew that the trajectory of my career had just changed that morning since before that fateful day, I would have felt lucky if I "deployed" to some partner nation country to do a joint exercise or had the opportunity to go on a MEU float at least once during my obligatory five years.

Fast forward to 2010, and I had deployed five times (three to Iraq and one to Afghanistan and one to GTMO, Cuba). In some ways, life was pretty uncomplicated and simple since it was basically train up to deploy and then deploy...rinse and repeat over and over again. Minus my one year spent in various MOS schools and training, my deployments and my time away from home training to deploy had me away from family and friends for 40 months out of 80 months I was stationed at Camp Lejeune and Ft. Meade during my active duty time. Eventually my wife (who I had married before my final deployment in 2009) and I agreed that I was done it all, especially if we were going to start a family. Fast forward another 10 years and I've been in the reserves almost as long as I had been on active duty.

My twin brother (West Point grad and Army SF) and I were deployed at the same time twice, with him in Afghanistan and me in Iraq the first time and me in Iraq and him in Afghanistan the second time. Needless to say, our mother did not enjoy our military careers.

As far as your statement that the military is a melting pot, I agree. However, each service definitely has its own personality and quarks. My service is the most conservative of the services, but even then, what I've noticed is that officers make up the larger portion of liberal service members in most services. Usually your NCOs and SNCOs are the most conservative service members.

I've enjoyed reading a lot of the level headed discussion on here.

Am I the only one reminded of this scene in Crimson Tide while reading all the events of this situation?


Court Scene - ( New Window )

looks the part.

In comment 14867572 RC in MD said:

Quote:

Quote: Where did I say that you don't take care of the sailors? All I said is that is was right he was relieved and that the cheering can also be further evidence in the big picture of things that perhaps they did not understand this which is a reflection of his leadership. That's the thing. You make it seem like their cheering him is another sign of his failing as a leader. I am 100% sure that he understands the importance of mission accomplishment far better than you and I. And I'm certain that he made a calculated decision to put his people before the mission based on a profound time spent thinking things over as he most definitely knew that this may be a career killer. So while I agree with you that his firing was warranted, you make it sound like it was a failing on his part to make this decision while I believe that he made a judgement call that something was more important than his carrier being out at sea or his career. You don't have to be liked as a leader, but you should be respected as one. Some people can't tell the difference. I'm sure that his people respected him as a leader because they felt that he had their welfare and best interest as priority through these extraordinary circumstances.

Well thank you for so clearly laying out some of the qualities of a leader. I am really not making it seem like anything. He made a mistake and paid a consequence. This does not define the Captain as a leader one way or the other. It is a event in a long and distinguished career.

The cheering can also be seen as the sailors not understanding that he made a mistake which can be seen to reflect the leadership of the ship.

I sure hope that you and yours are well

In comment 14867874 Bill2 said:

Quote:

I sure hope that you and yours are well

Currently enjoying this show from Korea.

In comment 14867771 JOrthman said:

Quote:

I've enjoyed reading a lot of the level headed discussion on here. Am I the only one reminded of this scene in Crimson Tide while reading all the events of this situation? Court Scene - ( New Window )

You're right....about the Lipizzaners. They are from spain.

Just come home safe

In comment 14867785 Lines of Scrimmage said:

Quote:

Well thank you for so clearly laying out some of the qualities of a leader. I am really not making it seem like anything. He made a mistake and paid a consequence. This does not define the Captain as a leader one way or the other. It is a event in a long and distinguished career. The cheering can also be seen as the sailors not understanding that he made a mistake which can be seen to reflect the leadership of the ship.

I don't think it's an either/or thing with them cheering for their commander. I'm certain that the vast majority of those cheering understand the importance of their mission yet can appreciate and respect their commander for what they saw in his actions despite it leading to his firing. Let's give those sailors more credit than to just dismiss their cheering as them not understanding that he made a judgement call. You may think it's a mistake, others may think (myself included) he made a value based judgement call. To use it as an indictment on the leadership of the ship without actually having first hand experience of the leadership of the ship is pretty presumptuous.

In comment 14868154 RC in MD said:

Quote:

In comment 14867785 Lines of Scrimmage said: Quote: I don't think it's an either/or thing with them cheering for their commander. I'm certain that the vast majority of those cheering understand the importance of their mission yet can appreciate and respect their commander for what they saw in his actions despite it leading to his firing. Let's give those sailors more credit than to just dismiss their cheering as them not understanding that he made a judgement call. You may think it's a mistake, others may think (myself included) he made a value based judgement call. To use it as an indictment on the leadership of the ship without actually having first hand experience of the leadership of the ship is pretty presumptuous.

I don't see how you interpret that as anything but a value based judgement call. You don't get to that spot being a dummy or completely ignorant of politics. But I think you may be giving the sailors a bit too much credit. I'm telling you most are cheering him on because they saw a guy sacrifice his own career for them, which is so unheard of in the Navy it's practically non existant, and generally quite the opposite is common. Getting abused or thrown under the bus to advance careers is extremely common in the Navy as opposed to the other branches. My friend got stationed here at MacDill and she couldn't believe how different the other branches treated the chain of command. It was a much flatter structure. I'd be there cheering him on as well for that very simple fact. Its crazy, because while what he did was wrong, it was a true display of leadership and the whole honor courage and commitment thing. Those are the breaks sometimes but you can't excuse the guy for taking the easy way out.

.

In comment 14868345 Zeke's Alibi said:

Quote:

.

Well...I like to believe that even squids have some semblance of leadership even though the branch is pretty steeped in hierarchy with it's Captain's wardroom, officers mess, Chiefs mess, and then everyone else. When I was on an amphib for a MEU, we had sailors picking up and delivering our laundry as well as clearing our plates in the officers mess...I was totally blown away. But then again, at the Naval Academy, we had Navy style or Marine Corps style dining at each squad's table. Marine style was the freshmen (plebes) ate first and the seniors ate last following the "officers eat last" concept. Navy, the plebes served everyone first before they got to eat. So it shouldn't have really surprised me how it was on ships.

In comment 14868389 RC in MD said:

Quote:

In comment 14868345 Zeke's Alibi said: Quote: . Well...I like to believe that even squids have some semblance of leadership even though the branch is pretty steeped in hierarchy with it's Captain's wardroom, officers mess, Chiefs mess, and then everyone else. When I was on an amphib for a MEU, we had sailors picking up and delivering our laundry as well as clearing our plates in the officers mess...I was totally blown away. But then again, at the Naval Academy, we had Navy style or Marine Corps style dining at each squad's table. Marine style was the freshmen (plebes) ate first and the seniors ate last following the "officers eat last" concept. Navy, the plebes served everyone first before they got to eat. So it shouldn't have really surprised me how it was on ships.

My buddy was a language school kick out and he read this book called Two Years Before The Mast and he gave me the cliffnotes. It was absolutely fascinating. It was written by a guy who was trying to become a Dr. but his eyesight was failing him. So he thought two years at sea would strengthen his eyesight. Joined the Navy as a deck seaman and it blew my mind how little deck department evolved since then. This book was written in 1840! Clearly a smart dude and could see through a lot of the psychological tactics they use for control.

Anyway I had a lot of time to think about it and talked to some other people about it. The Army and Marine Corps needs buy in from their enlisted to complete missions. Where as in the Navy there is a very distinct class structure and you work for the brass and not the other way around. I understood why you need to demonstrate a ton of control on the ship, but they pretty much cut a ton of liberty around when I got in, which is time to blow off steam. No overnights anywhere, even outside the Persian Gulf, which absolutely crushed morale. All I wanted was to get away from that bullshit for 3 days a month, but had curfew, and was always forced to have a fucking liberty plan signed by the COC (which by signing it pretty much gives them the right to fuck you if you drank at all). But the upper levels don't give a shit, they'd rather look better by having a few less incidents on port visits than good morale on the ship.
What are you going to do? Not do your job? Good luck with that. Most the time you are doing bullshit busy work anyway, so its not like they need you to be productive anyway.

Thats just one example. Even talking to some guys that joined up around 9/11 they couldn't believe how much things had change in an effort to "corporatize" the Navy. Where as the "Old" Navy became a common refrain. To the point where my department chief had to chew our shit out from the rumbling coming from some of us "older" guys that understood how things used to be (funny how anything past 25 is ancient in the military).

One thing I did notice though was there was a clear generational gap between people my age, born 86, and those 5 years younger me. They were absolutely terrified of breaking rules, which I thought was interesting. Probably a lot to do with zero tolerance policies and the like from schools and helicopter parents. My dad even commented on it. He's like I feel bad for you kids, it's like one mistake and they want to fuck up your life forever today. My parents were boomers so it was pretty cool, had a lot of freedom, and the ability to figure things out on my own. Of course this independent style didn't really jive with how the military evolved past 2010.

I remember asking why my department chief why we didn't have a watch section and work section. He said too much free time causes trouble. Which is ridiculous because you'd still be working 50 some odd hour weeks plus mandatory training and working out. Come down hard on the troublemakers. Make them pull work and watch, problem solved. There is a ton of the mindset, I suffered, so you will suffer too. Which is the complete opposite of good leadership. Leadership in the Navy is given, not earned, although that is probably a military wide problem. I remember being so fucking tired all the time, it made the dangerous work I did, exponentially more dangerous. And night time watches? Forget about it. You start seeing shit out there that doesn't exist because you are so tired. Probably miss that Iranian speedboat coming right at you. Not to mention the amount of people that would just sleep on watch.

Zeke, those last post of yours is the biggest bunch of HORSHIT that I have ever read!!! While I appreciate you and respect you served, this bullshit you are posting just makes people who served HONORABLY look like a bunch of slackers who aren’t ready for war and just sitting around “coking and smoking” and not giving a fuck! I don’t know what Navy you served in, but it damn sure wasn’t the Navy I served in.
First of all, there, this bullshit about only E4 and below getting sick: If you weren’t a side walk sailor and were a fleet sailor, you would know that berthing areas are made up by division. In other military terms, MOS. E6 and below all sleep in the same compartment. So, in other words, it could have been possible that an entire division or department could have become infected and needed to be quarantine. A closed berthing area, limited ventilation, and let me add that the us the same showers and shitters! You have to quarantine the wrong division, say, CIC or your Nukes, you can degrade the ship to different category of readiness because you may have lost the ability to have trained sailors in critical operational billets and or stations.
The possibility of the entire wardroom could have been quarantined since the CO tested positive. Do you not understand the ramifications that it’s possible the most senior officers could have been quarantined, like WEPS, OPS, Engineering??
And by the way, and the biggest fucking bullshit you posted was about ESWS and getting qualified and no one really cared!! Do me fucking favor. Google Operation Preying Mantis. April 18, 1988. This is what leadership and people who give a fuck do! Not whine about night watches and being tired. You should have joined a fucking yacht club if you wanna relax and enjoy liberty. The sailors on the USS Simpson are example of US Navy Pride and Professionalism! Every swinging dick was out there fighting fires and saving their ship! I would bet dollars to donuts a lot of them were ESWS qualified. This qualification meant you knew a little bit about the entire operation of the ship, and if emergency situations, SEE USS Stark 1987 and USS Simpson, it saved the ship and a lot of sailors. I
I had the honor to be stationed onboard the USS Wainwright CG-28 during Operation Preying Mantis AND making chief onboard USS Theodore Roosevelt CVN-71. The year you were born, we were sailing in the Black Sea and crossing the one of Death in Libya. This is why sailors train and why they should honored and not disrespected because of the narrowness of your views of the Navy

Chief Petty Officer
US Navy Retired

GManinDC, welcome back.

GManinDC...that's a name I hadn't seen in years. How have you been?

I sure hope you and yours are well.

Great to "see" you!

In comment 14868704 GManinDC said:

Quote:

Chief Petty Officer US Navy Retired

Man, I don't know jack about the Navy but that was fantastic!

Missed you guys! Hope all is well with your and families and loved ones. I am doing well.

Got to reading this thread and was getting pretty irritated.

You are a great poster, a good discussion partner and missed amongst your friends.

Venting is cool.

Please visit more often

my dear friend. I somehow lost your contact info. Along with a a lot of others. Amazingly, I still had Dune, Doc and T-Bone.

I spent 3 years on the TR. That ship is very dear to my heart. Well, they all are. But going through Chief initiation during the month of July in the Persian Gulf was a milestone I will always treasure.

Be well. Stay safe!

In comment 14868704 GManinDC said:

Quote:

Zeke, those last post of yours is the biggest bunch of HORSHIT that I have ever read!!! While I appreciate you and respect you served, this bullshit you are posting just makes people who served HONORABLY look like a bunch of slackers who aren’t ready for war and just sitting around “coking and smoking” and not giving a fuck! I don’t know what Navy you served in, but it damn sure wasn’t the Navy I served in. First of all, there, this bullshit about only E4 and below getting sick: If you weren’t a side walk sailor and were a fleet sailor, you would know that berthing areas are made up by division. In other military terms, MOS. E6 and below all sleep in the same compartment. So, in other words, it could have been possible that an entire division or department could have become infected and needed to be quarantine. A closed berthing area, limited ventilation, and let me add that the us the same showers and shitters! You have to quarantine the wrong division, say, CIC or your Nukes, you can degrade the ship to different category of readiness because you may have lost the ability to have trained sailors in critical operational billets and or stations. The possibility of the entire wardroom could have been quarantined since the CO tested positive. Do you not understand the ramifications that it’s possible the most senior officers could have been quarantined, like WEPS, OPS, Engineering?? And by the way, and the biggest fucking bullshit you posted was about ESWS and getting qualified and no one really cared!! Do me fucking favor. Google Operation Preying Mantis. April 18, 1988. This is what leadership and people who give a fuck do! Not whine about night watches and being tired. You should have joined a fucking yacht club if you wanna relax and enjoy liberty. The sailors on the USS Simpson are example of US Navy Pride and Professionalism! Every swinging dick was out there fighting fires and saving their ship! I would bet dollars to donuts a lot of them were ESWS qualified. This qualification meant you knew a little bit about the entire operation of the ship, and if emergency situations, SEE USS Stark 1987 and USS Simpson, it saved the ship and a lot of sailors. I I had the honor to be stationed onboard the USS Wainwright CG-28 during Operation Preying Mantis AND making chief onboard USS Theodore Roosevelt CVN-71. The year you were born, we were sailing in the Black Sea and crossing the one of Death in Libya. This is why sailors train and why they should honored and not disrespected because of the narrowness of your views of the Navy Chief Petty Officer US Navy Retired

Thank you!

In comment 14868977 Bill2 said:

Quote:

You are a great poster, a good discussion partner and missed amongst your friends. Venting is cool. Please visit more often

Totally agree. You were and are still one of the very best of BBI. Hope you and your family are staying safe, healthy, and sane, my friend.

I will re send the email through Dunedin.

Just another of a whole bunch of very good men found on this site

in, but thanks for chiming in. I wasn't looking to join a yacht club. Just looking to keep people as operationally ready as possible. And yes, the ESWS pin is pretty meaningless these days. I don't know what it was like when you were in, but now you go around the ship getting signatures from different departments and then take a pretty simple multiple choice test as many times as you want. On a carrier, those responsible for firefighting duties outside of that Rating, ran GQ every 2 weeks or so with situational training. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine.

I don't know what to tell you man, I was on an aircraft carrier deployed twice to the war zone. I'm just relaying what was the consensus aboard these ships, among many of the departments. Sleep deprivation has negative effect on performance, period. How many incidents happened aboard ships because of overtired sailors? The job is dangerous enough as it is, at least in deck department. When there are ways to work around it, they should be taken.

How much of our naval practices and culture is as it was under Lord Nelson.

I submit that although is has defects and weaknesses, our naval traditions and institutions ( and those of the Brits) are the only proven guiding principles as compared to what is out there.

Small example:

Once the Bismarck sunk the Hood, all Brit naval commanders anywhere in the North Sea or North Atlantic changed direction and headed for the Bismarck. And told them about it via radio. Told them not to surrender they were dead men.

When the Admiralty decided a few hours later to pursue the Bismarck, most ships of any kind capable of blue water had already started.

When the rudder got hit there was already full panic the officers could not reverse.

The officers could not get men to man stations or do anything except flee. Hitler refused to allow abandon ship and threatened the officers families if they did. Mutiny's began to break out throughout the ship.

Meanwhile the Brits kept up the radio demoralization without any plan or order to do so. "All dead. All of you are dead. No surrender. No turning over the ship. no rescues. No one comes on board. You and the ship are history." Non stop every shift. The last days on the Bismarck were pure hell.

The charge of Taffy 3 was not an exception to the culture. McCluskey risking drowning at sea was not a one off exception. HB Roberts was not an exception. Firing from the Arizona as it went down was not an exception.

Being the only nation that makes carriers actually work across long operating tours is not an accident. Being the only carrier fleet who can operate day and night and in storm condition levels that they can is not an accident.

So for all of the oppressive nature and sad experiences the ultimate test of a culture and its practices remains:

Did it work when it counted most?

I defy anyone to say anything but Yes and Yes Absolutely

that the institution will learn from this and get better.

May not be just how it gets there. But it will get better

Most institutions I know do not get better from adversity.

They weaken and weaken.

One of Americas great great institutions

And who will be called upon again and again in the world we face going forward

In comment 14869289 Bill2 said:

Quote:

that the institution will learn from this and get better. May not be just how it gets there. But it will get better Most institutions I know do not get better from adversity. They weaken and weaken. One of Americas great great institutions And who will be called upon again and again in the world we face going forward

Mentioning the Brits reminded me of what a pain in the ass they were when using the UQC during combined ops.

They would not shut the hell up and I swear they put the guy with the thickest Brit accent on it just to mess with us

First off, let me apologize for my cursing and calling you out. I took it very personal about the TR. And i think, people don't tend to realize how easy it can be for virus or any illness can effect the operations of a Navy ship.

I served from 1984 - 2004. I made seven 6 month deployments.

ESWS back then was a voluntary. Only those who wanted to get qualified went through process. I was that gung ho sailor that got qualified as a E5. As crazy as it sounds, I still have the frame and picture of me getting pinned on the USS Wainwright.

But i was very serious about Operation Preying Mantis. The anniversary is this Saturday. People should really google it. This is what all the DC training, ESWS and GQ training every 3 days were about. Yes, i hated it to until an Iranian patrol boat fired a US Harpoon Missile at my ship. When we heard "Missle Inbound", everyone's mind went back to training and on the balls of your feet.

I guess the Navy changed a lot since I retired. I knew to was time for me to go when some seaman deuce (E2) asked me why he had to do something!

My apologies again. BTW I was a RM before they combined RM and DP and made IT..

I think you are right on point about he Brits and US Navy. We did an ship exchange while I was on the TR for 2 days. Off the coast of Bosnia, back in 99.

Their operations and how they perform their duties are almost identical. From the uniform, how the ships are set up with Combat Information Center (CIC) and their other departments. They even have the bugle calls!

The one big difference, they have a bar onboard that opens op at around 4pm everyday! That can never happen on a US ship!

I served on the Kitty Hawk in the early 80’s. The bogeyman of the time was Ayatollah Khomeini. The Soviet Union and the cold war was still a force. There wasn’t a single port in the Middle East that was safe to bring a warship into. The only “friendly” port in the Middle East was Bahrain, but even then only oilers and replenishment ships would go in there. Half the Pacific fleet was in the Indian Ocean or the Gulf, but the nearest port we could take a warship into was either Perth Australia or Subic Bay. Subic was closer but required a trip through the Straits of Malacca past the Soviet subs that were staked out there. Needless to say deployments were long, watches were long and it was difficult to rotate crews. But we managed.

Fast forward to the 2010’s. No cold war , a strong ground military presence in the Middle East and throughout Asia and no major threats. And yet deployments are longer than ever , ships are more shorthanded than ever and training is cut to the bone. Case in point: Within the last couple of years there were at least four collisions in the Pacific fleet that we know about resulting in the death of sailors and material damage. How could that happen ! Back in my time officers were trained extensively in seamanship using simulators. In a harbor or crowded channel we had enhanced watches. The Captain and senior navigator were always on the bridge in such situations. I don’t think civilians realize how many compound screwups have to occur in order for a maneuverable warship to be involved in a collision. Meanwhile I read in Navy Times, that officers no longer receive specialized seamanship training, deployments are nine months and sailors are exhausted from standing port and starboard watches.

So when Captain Crozier takes extraordinary measures because his superiors are dragging ass while his crew is sick, I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt. When Zeke complains that the Navy has turned into an ass covering bureaucracy I tend to believe there’s a grain if truth. When I see the outrageous behavior of Modley, it makes me wonder what the standard of behavior on conduct exists in today’s Navy.

In comment 14869331 GManinDC said:

Quote:

First off, let me apologize for my cursing and calling you out. I took it very personal about the TR. And i think, people don't tend to realize how easy it can be for virus or any illness can effect the operations of a Navy ship. I served from 1984 - 2004. I made seven 6 month deployments. ESWS back then was a voluntary. Only those who wanted to get qualified went through process. I was that gung ho sailor that got qualified as a E5. As crazy as it sounds, I still have the frame and picture of me getting pinned on the USS Wainwright. But i was very serious about Operation Preying Mantis. The anniversary is this Saturday. People should really google it. This is what all the DC training, ESWS and GQ training every 3 days were about. Yes, i hated it to until an Iranian patrol boat fired a US Harpoon Missile at my ship. When we heard "Missle Inbound", everyone's mind went back to training and on the balls of your feet. I guess the Navy changed a lot since I retired. I knew to was time for me to go when some seaman deuce (E2) asked me why he had to do something! My apologies again. BTW I was a RM before they combined RM and DP and made IT..

No worries brother, I totally get where you're coming from. I've had lots of physical jobs that were much more demanding work wise then anything I did in the Navy (although much more safe). Most the guys I met that joined around 9/11 couldn't believe how much things changed starting around 2010, but just wanted to gut it out to the end. The worst position you can find yourself in is finding yourself wanting to leave after getting halfway through, especially since its full pension or nothing.

As far as the virus thing is concerned, I think there was a disconnect there. In theory, and if things were the way they were supposed to be, you'd have so few sailors onboard in these risk groups there would be really no need to quarantine anyone. The fact of the matter though is because of laxer standards, a significant portion of that ship is probably in those risk groups. On board a ship when something like that breaks up, there is no quarantine. You can't. So its either dock or gut it out.

Shit I remember the double dragon ran rampant on my ship about 7/8 times over two deployments. The first time they gave out SIQ chits from medical. That crushed the operational effectiveness of the ship so they made it command dependant. I remember I got hit with the worst of it one time while I was supposed to be manning anchor watch during the balls. I told my watch sup, and he said tough titties. Honestly there was really nothing I could do other than puke out the chock in between trips to the head shitting my brains out. I always wonder if something catastrophic were to happen if I'd get fucked even though I told my watch sup. Probably, because he'd just say I never told him.

on this thread. Whole different ball of wax hearing the EM and NCO side of things and perspectives.

RC at USMMA plebes were the messmen. Tables were set up with a PC or CX(2 strippers) and above as table captain, then 2nd class, 3rd class and plebes. Plebes rotated going to the galley to serve the table. After 1st rotation my plebe year, I sat at the table with the kicker(CX 5th Co.) for the football team and the snap center. They moved me to the head of the table over the 2nd classman and I never went to the galley again. Nice to be friends with 1st classman...


Yeah, plebes still had all the company cleaning stations each morning.

In comment 14869471 section125 said:

Quote:

on this thread. Whole different ball of wax hearing the EM and NCO side of things and perspectives. RC at USMMA plebes were the messmen. Tables were set up with a PC or CX(2 strippers) and above as table captain, then 2nd class, 3rd class and plebes. Plebes rotated going to the galley to serve the table. After 1st rotation my plebe year, I sat at the table with the kicker(CX 5th Co.) for the football team and the snap center. They moved me to the head of the table over the 2nd classman and I never went to the galley again. Nice to be friends with 1st classman... Yeah, plebes still had all the company cleaning stations each morning.

Definitely different how the two academies operated as well as how time changed things (I commissioned in 2002). Even when I would visit my brother at West Point, they were so different from us.

I've always believed in the "officers eat last" mentality since I was a plebe.

[quote]Adm. Michael M. Gilday, the chief of naval operations, has indicated that he may reinstate Captain Crozier, who is viewed as a hero by his crew for putting their lives above his career, officials said.

“No final decisions have been made,” Cmdr. Nate Christensen, a spokesman for the admiral, said in a statement to The Times on Wednesday. Commander Christensen added that Admiral Gilday was reviewing the findings of a preliminary investigation into the events surrounding Captain Crozier’s removal.
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The email from Capt. Brett Crozier was sent to three admirals and copied to seven other captains, according to a copy obtained by the Post, contradicting former acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly’s assertion it was sent to “20 or 30” people. ... In the email, Crozier called the recipients “incredible leaders” who he would “gladly … follow into battle whenever need.” “I fully realize that I bear responsibility for not demanding more decisive action the moment we pulled in, but at this point my only priority is the continued well-being of the crew and embarked staff,” Crozier wrote. “As you know, the accountability of a commanding officer is absolute, and I believe if there is ever a time to ask for help it is now regardless of the impact on my career.” The email was addressed to Rear Adm. Stuart Baker, commander of the Roosevelt's carrier strike group; Adm. John Aquilino, commander of U.S. Pacific Fleet; and Vice Adm. DeWolfe Miller, commander of Naval Air Forces. Seven other captains were copied on the email.

Hmmm...seems like someone really took the Captain's actions personally and decided to remove him before any investigation. Makes the former acting SecNav look even worse, if that's even possible.
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Not surprised. Yes, he could have sent it "Personal For", but maybe he didn't it was necessary. But, if you look at the statements the idiot acting SecNav said, it was really pretty obvious what he was doing.

He publicly stated he didn't want this to become an issue for (Washington) and he didn't want to be over ruled like the other SecNav in the Eddie Gallagher case. So he went full bore and lied about the circumstances and the number of people. would bet there wasn't a plan for the Roosevelt and the email and message made Washington react and create a plan

In comment 14870848 GManinDC said:

Quote:

Not surprised. Yes, he could have sent it "Personal For", but maybe he didn't it was necessary. But, if you look at the statements the idiot acting SecNav said, it was really pretty obvious what he was doing. He publicly stated he didn't want this to become an issue for (Washington) and he didn't want to be over ruled like the other SecNav in the Eddie Gallagher case. So he went full bore and lied about the circumstances and the number of people. would bet there wasn't a plan for the Roosevelt and the email and message made Washington react and create a plan

This is what it looks like happened. I mean when you make a 38 hour flight at the last minute to give a 15 minutes lecture to a ship full of sailors, who are in a pretty bad situation, you're pretty much running on emotions and not sound judgement. If he has resigned already, he wouldn't have lasted any longer than today.

That;s why they keep saying that the captain might get re-instated. Because he did the right thing.

Would not be surprised at all that Capt Crozier gets re-instated back to the TR after he is done with quarantine

jackassery was to to the tune of a quarter-million dollars-- just to fly out there and give that awful address.