I'm not sure if the firt thread actually got posted or not. It was not political or designed to elicit political views. It was mere a civilian looking for the perspective of those who served.
There seems to be some real disconnect between top military leadership and their governing bodies and possibly civilians overseeing them. I was hoping for some perspective on the Captain's actions, his firing, and the crew's reaction to him leaving, which was admonished by the Navy Secretary, etc.
Also, what does it mean he was fired? I understand he was relieved of his command. But, I haven't seen any mention of a discharge, so was he simply reassigned to a desk job?
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The initial parts of the crew that were most affected and handicapped by the infection were the folks in the nuclear reactor maintenance and Quality Control Units.
Ok I get being concerned about that
Mis information or too much information then went to the crew in general from the Carrier Medical Team...causing a great deal of concern all over the ship
This looks like it isn't going to wind up a very black and white case study
If you ask a captain of an aircraft carrier what his biggest concerns are, I can almost guarantee you controlling scuttlebutt is top 3. Rumor and misinformation runs rampant. And the way some are portraying this out in the media you'd think this was a death sentence for the general population, I wouldn't be surprised if most the crew thought they were at legit risk. It's hard to explain to people, but you have very little interaction with the outside world on these ships. The internet is barely usable for 98 percent of the crew outside of email. For context I went to bodybuilding.com, and ordered something off their site. It literally took my whole 30 minute of allotment to complete the order. A task that routinely takes 2 minutes.
One of the sailors just died. Fair to say they were at legit risk.
1). Controlling scuttlebutt is impossible. There was no internet in my time, but we still had an idea what was going on in the outside world. News broadcasts were piped in, magazines were sold on board, and, of course we got letters. Today I imagine sailors see the same sensationalist news that the rest of us see.
2) Health problems were always in issue on ships. In my day many sailors smoked like freight trains. Back then they chewed tobacco as well. Its just the kind of thing that would make even young men vulnerable to COVID. Weight control was a problem among senior enlisted. If E6's and above start dropping off, that ship isn't going to be functional for long
1). Controlling scuttlebutt is impossible. There was no internet in my time, but we still had an idea what was going on in the outside world. News broadcasts were piped in, magazines were sold on board, and, of course we got letters. Today I imagine sailors see the same sensationalist news that the rest of us see.
2) Health problems were always in issue on ships. In my day many sailors smoked like freight trains. Back then they chewed tobacco as well. Its just the kind of thing that would make even young men vulnerable to COVID. Weight control was a problem among senior enlisted. If E6's and above start dropping off, that ship isn't going to be functional for long
Concur...I made a couple of cruises on the NIMITZ in the mid-to-late 80's, and EVERY time we headed east to the Med, practically the entire crew came down with some form of upper respiratory junk...Nature of the beast.
And Mess Hall #3 scuttlebutt was renowned for being vocal and wrong at the same time...it didn't help that we had a captain who came up and told us to stop listening to the mess hall and that he'd pass whenever news came up...but he never did.
One of the sailors just died. Fair to say they were at legit risk.
Of course some of the upper enlisted are at risk, but they put themselves in the risk group. Just like all the smokers, which I was one. Its hard for me to get worked up about people that put themselves at risk due to personal responsibility, when so many are put at risk for things in the military completely at control. I imagined most the smoke pits are closed on ships right now.
1). Controlling scuttlebutt is impossible. There was no internet in my time, but we still had an idea what was going on in the outside world. News broadcasts were piped in, magazines were sold on board, and, of course we got letters. Today I imagine sailors see the same sensationalist news that the rest of us see.
2) Health problems were always in issue on ships. In my day many sailors smoked like freight trains. Back then they chewed tobacco as well. Its just the kind of thing that would make even young men vulnerable to COVID. Weight control was a problem among senior enlisted. If E6's and above start dropping off, that ship isn't going to be functional for long
Right the issue is some dumbass reads something totally wrong, spreads that information to 3, who spread it exponentially. Most people on the ship have very little access to the outside world. I had no idea what was going on during Sandy except for the cable news broadcasts out of the mess decks showing footage out of Hoboken.
And the weight control thing has gotten out of hand, mostly because they look the other way because they are having a hard time retaining good people that didn't get trapped by having family early. There is a reason the military encourages their young enlisted to get married and have kids with the pay structure. Their best bet to retain good, quality people after their first contract is to make sure those people need the financial stability the military generally offers.
Plus the view of what is overweight has significantly changed since then. I see it all over the COVID thread, describing a lot of these people as healthy just because they are average. The average American is pretty far from healthy.
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In comment 14866753 Zeke's Alibi said:
One of the sailors just died. Fair to say they were at legit risk.
Of course some of the upper enlisted are at risk, but they put themselves in the risk group. Just like all the smokers, which I was one. Its hard for me to get worked up about people that put themselves at risk due to personal responsibility, when so many are put at risk for things in the military completely at control. I imagined most the smoke pits are closed on ships right now.
So only people who "put themselves at risk due to personal responsibility" are the only ones who have died from this virus?
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In comment 14866788 Chris in Philly said:
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In comment 14866753 Zeke's Alibi said:
One of the sailors just died. Fair to say they were at legit risk.
Of course some of the upper enlisted are at risk, but they put themselves in the risk group. Just like all the smokers, which I was one. Its hard for me to get worked up about people that put themselves at risk due to personal responsibility, when so many are put at risk for things in the military completely at control. I imagined most the smoke pits are closed on ships right now.
So only people who "put themselves at risk due to personal responsibility" are the only ones who have died from this virus?
Show me where the dead bodies are at that are under 50 that haven't put themselves in the risk group. Maybe a few unlucky people with genetic disorders, type 1 diabetes, maybe some congenital heart issues. These people aren't allowed in the military to begin with and at boot camp if they find some medical issue after doing extensive testing, guess what, they ship you out. Outside of some heroic medical personnel that were getting heavy doses of COVID the amount of people under 50 where there were no health issues are so few and far between they aren't even worth discussing. It's like talking about the risk from getting struck by lightning.
I really don't think people understand that most the shit they eat is nutritionless garbage, that is actively killing you. It generally just does it slow job because its pseudo food. Even aboard the ship there are plenty of healthy options like fish, chicken, beef, rice, baked potatoes, fresh produce, fresh fruit. And then you have the aft decks with fried food. Which mess hall do you think was more populated? People make their own decisions in life. Part of being in the military is keeping your body a lean, mean, fighting machine. Many don't.
Captain Crozier was haunted by the Diamond Princess, a cruise ship of 2,600 passengers in individual cabins where the virus had killed eight people and infected more than 700. The situation on his ship had the potential to be far worse: nearly 5,000 sailors crammed in shared berths, sometimes stacked three high. Eight of his sailors with severe Covid-19 symptoms had already been evacuated to the Navy’s hospital in Guam.
On March 30, after four days of rebuffs from his superiors, Captain Crozier sat down to compose an email. “Sailors don’t need to die,” he wrote to 20 other people, all Navy personnel in the Pacific, asking for help. A Naval Academy graduate with nearly 30 years of military service, the captain knew the email would most likely end his career, his friends said in interviews. The military prizes its chain of command, and the appropriate course would have been for the captain to continue to push his superiors for action.
He hit “send” anyway.
There's a lot more info in the article (including a timeline of when crew members came into contact with the virus and that the outbreak did start with 3 people in the reactor department).
‘There Will Be Losses’ (likely behind NYT paywall) - ( New Window )
I'm curious where your disagreement is? Is what you put in your mouth (pseudo food, cigarettes, booze, drugs etc) is that not a personal decision? Like people know these things are bad for them, but they do it anyway. And the refrain generally speaking is well I'll clean it up later, I got time. Until you wake up one day and have a heart attack or a stroke or something like that.
The issue is we have normalized so much shit that we eat and because its "food" it can't be that bad for you. Shit I went to some cheaper buffett type joint on Thanksgiving with my Dad here because nothing else was open and waiting in line the conversations blew my mind. You'd think you were standing outside a methadone clinic.
A colleague of mine is from Ecuador and it constantly blows her mind that so much of the culture here revolves around food. She's like everything seems to revolved around planning and going out to eat or what your having for lunch, etc etc.
Separately another factor that may have complicated things on a ship is that there is a theory that the reason healthcare workers have been so impacted, including those in lower risk age groups, is because of the exposure to a higher viral load being in such close contact - which seems like it could be a factor among anyone in very close quarters to an outbreak on a ship.
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The warship’s doctors estimated that more than 50 crew members would die, but Capt. Brett E. Crozier’s superiors were balking at what they considered his drastic request to evacuate nearly the entire ship.
Captain Crozier was haunted by the Diamond Princess, a cruise ship of 2,600 passengers in individual cabins where the virus had killed eight people and infected more than 700. The situation on his ship had the potential to be far worse: nearly 5,000 sailors crammed in shared berths, sometimes stacked three high. Eight of his sailors with severe Covid-19 symptoms had already been evacuated to the Navy’s hospital in Guam.
On March 30, after four days of rebuffs from his superiors, Captain Crozier sat down to compose an email. “Sailors don’t need to die,” he wrote to 20 other people, all Navy personnel in the Pacific, asking for help. A Naval Academy graduate with nearly 30 years of military service, the captain knew the email would most likely end his career, his friends said in interviews. The military prizes its chain of command, and the appropriate course would have been for the captain to continue to push his superiors for action.
He hit “send” anyway.
There's a lot more info in the article (including a timeline of when crew members came into contact with the virus and that the outbreak did start with 3 people in the reactor department). ‘There Will Be Losses’ (likely behind NYT paywall) - ( New Window )
The reactor department is the one department on the ship that has different standards. Those are the few guys that can get caught smoking weed and they military won't kick them out. Weight standards are pretty much a suggestion. They are having a huge issue recruiting them because the propaganda they put out there, reasonably smart people see through that shit.
When I started to look into it in 2010 it was the on department you could find information on because it sucked so bad and the people were reasonably smart would take to the internet and you could find nuggets here and there. I'm pretty sure the military actively tries to scrub information what the day to day life is like in the military. It blew my mind how little I could find as far as that was concerned.
ASVAB scores for becoming a Nuke are routinely brought down. I think these days you can get in with a 70 if specific line scores are okay. When I joined, my department historically filled with shitbags, idiots, and trouble makers had more college educated and scores in the 90th percentile by a significant margin than the nukes.
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okay. Have a good day.
I'm curious where your disagreement is? Is what you put in your mouth (pseudo food, cigarettes, booze, drugs etc) is that not a personal decision? Like people know these things are bad for them, but they do it anyway. And the refrain generally speaking is well I'll clean it up later, I got time. Until you wake up one day and have a heart attack or a stroke or something like that.
The issue is we have normalized so much shit that we eat and because its "food" it can't be that bad for you. Shit I went to some cheaper buffett type joint on Thanksgiving with my Dad here because nothing else was open and waiting in line the conversations blew my mind. You'd think you were standing outside a methadone clinic.
A colleague of mine is from Ecuador and it constantly blows her mind that so much of the culture here revolves around food. She's like everything seems to revolved around planning and going out to eat or what your having for lunch, etc etc.
You're all over the place here with nothing but subjective takes based on zero facts.
link - ( New Window )
One of the biggest reasons the US Navy is so powerful and strikes awe around the world is that we train to chaos. It's basically organized or controlled chaos. I cant count the times we trained for mass casualty events, quarantining mess decks and other spaces,general quarters and donning PPE.
I've been injected with 13x shots of Anthrax, 2x doses of Small Pox, etc., while underway. We couldn't even go on a port call if we didn't hand in our "Hazmat" small pox band-aids. I pretty much lived in full MOPP gear for a week straight sitting off the coasts of India and Pakistan when they lit off their nukes. Point being, we trained and trained for "shit hitting the fan" and instilled confidence in the chain of command that they could respond to life threatening events in a calm, assertive demeanor.
So while I think the CO's heart was in the right place, his actions weren't. I know it would have made my job a lot harder. I know a few shipmates on the TR and not all praised his actions either. It's a common discussion with my vet friends and most don't agree either. Some even believe he was panicked because of the decision to do a port call in Vietnam, which is possibly the source, and that affected his decision making as he felt some responsibility. If there were any concerns, the port call could have been cancelled. I've experienced cancelled port calls, some due to medical clearance. Anyway, I would lost faith in his decision making going forward and agreed with the immediate dismissal. As far as how it was handled, I cant say I really cared either way.
PS. Zeke - if you wanted better internet speed, you should have made friends in CVIC. They have ways to provide more bandwidth to comms.
Bill2 - I hope all is well and appreciate you remembering me.
You're all over the place here with nothing but subjective takes based on zero facts.
Are you serious? Even when I was in and they were kicking people out left and right for minor transgressions during the downsizing and supply of new boots was high because of the economy, there were a few nukes on my ship who popped hot for weed and they'd go on restriction and stayed in. You are talking to someone that lived it, and then you are telling me stuff you think is fact that couldn't be further from the truth.
Where are the healthy, young people dying? This isn't the Spanish flu. The problem is what your average person thinks is healthy, isn't. Just because its normal. When I talk to the average person about nutrition, it blows my mind how little they know, or what they believe is healthy is at best neutral. I bring it up because part of your duty of being in the military is to stay fit and healthy. Some don't take it seriously, and conditions have relaxed a bit due to poor retention rates.
Most people act like age is inevitable and the cause of all their woes. That is such bullshit. The older I get the difference between my health and many of my friends comes down to some exercise (especially in a non physically demanding job) and eating healthy. Go look at people that age gracefully. Look at the guys in sports who have long careers. They literally all do those two things. There are people out there that are my age and have health markers of 70 year olds. Those are personal decisions they made to do what feels good now, at the expense of later. Which honestly is crazy to me, because that later is usually an hour after you eat that food when your body is trying to process that shit you put in it.
I hope all is well for you and your family
Bill
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Similarly, in New York, 64 percent of patients between the ages of 30 and 39 who died of the disease suffered from a preexisting condition, usually high blood pressure or diabetes. But that still leaves about a third of cases without such a possible contributing factor.
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KNOWN underlying conditions. Need to read between the lines there. What we know about health care in this country, many never go to the doctor, especially in that age group.
One of the biggest reasons the US Navy is so powerful and strikes awe around the world is that we train to chaos. It's basically organized or controlled chaos. I cant count the times we trained for mass casualty events, quarantining mess decks and other spaces,general quarters and donning PPE.
I've been injected with 13x shots of Anthrax, 2x doses of Small Pox, etc., while underway. We couldn't even go on a port call if we didn't hand in our "Hazmat" small pox band-aids. I pretty much lived in full MOPP gear for a week straight sitting off the coasts of India and Pakistan when they lit off their nukes. Point being, we trained and trained for "shit hitting the fan" and instilled confidence in the chain of command that they could respond to life threatening events in a calm, assertive demeanor.
So while I think the CO's heart was in the right place, his actions weren't. I know it would have made my job a lot harder. I know a few shipmates on the TR and not all praised his actions either. It's a common discussion with my vet friends and most don't agree either. Some even believe he was panicked because of the decision to do a port call in Vietnam, which is possibly the source, and that affected his decision making as he felt some responsibility. If there were any concerns, the port call could have been cancelled. I've experienced cancelled port calls, some due to medical clearance. Anyway, I would lost faith in his decision making going forward and agreed with the immediate dismissal. As far as how it was handled, I cant say I really cared either way.
PS. Zeke - if you wanted better internet speed, you should have made friends in CVIC. They have ways to provide more bandwidth to comms.
Bill2 - I hope all is well and appreciate you remembering me.
Have you ever read Two Years Behind The Mast? It blew my mind how little deck department changed in 150 years. Like literally the same bullshit. Unfortunately, the mindset of well I went through it so you will to is very alive and well. At the same time though they have a ton more control of your personal life off ship now and regulations are more strict in an effort to "corporatize" the Navy. It's crazy to me they are so restrictive of letting people blow off steam, in an environment that so desperately needs it.
Sailors aboard the Roosevelt most likely picked up the virus at a port call in Da Nang, Vietnam, on March 5 — just the second visit by an American aircraft carrier to that country since the end of the Vietnam War.
At the time, 16 coronavirus cases had been reported in Vietnam, all in the northern part of the country, far from Da Nang. The top Navy officer in the Pacific, Adm. Philip S. Davidson, ordered the long-scheduled visit to proceed as an important show of American military strength in a region increasingly unnerved by Beijing’s growing territorial claims in the South China Sea.
Da Nang’s piers are too small for a ship of the Roosevelt’s size to dock. So for its brief port call, it anchored offshore, relying on small boats to ferry the crew to the docks. Crew members posted pictures to social media of rooftop hotel pools and relaxation. One post said, “feelin vietnamazing.”
On the fourth and final day in Da Nang, after dozens of sailors had spent at least one night in a hotel where two British nationals tested positive for the virus, the Roosevelt ordered some crew members back to the ship for fear they might be exposed. Those who had stayed at the hotel were immediately isolated.
The Roosevelt went back out to sea, and its medical team watched closely for any sign of sickened sailors — a ticking clock during the 14-day period when symptoms would most likely appear. Over those same 14 days, aircraft flew on and off the ship, bringing in supplies from Japan and the Philippines.
Then came the announcement over the shipwide loudspeakers at dawn on March 24 as the carrier steamed through the western Pacific. “Set River City 1,” a voice ordered.
The fact remains that the CO made a call that he deemed necessary whether others agree or not. He accepted the consequences and is recovering from the exact disease that he warned about. Monday morning quarterbacking his decision is good for discussion but won't achieve any form of conclusive acceptance by either side.
Also, while it's only one death at this point, it may (and will most likely be the first of several). And while we can argue that people have signed up for putting their lives on the line, none of these people signed up to die from a disease that spread virulently aboard a ship that they were on, especially when one of the most effective way to avoid it is to socially distance which is impossible on any kind of a ship. The argument that the former acting SecNav made comparing being under pressure from enemy attack to being under pressure from COVID-19 is both tone deaf and outright dumb.
The fact remains that the CO made a call that he deemed necessary whether others agree or not. He accepted the consequences and is recovering from the exact disease that he warned about. Monday morning quarterbacking his decision is good for discussion but won't achieve any form of conclusive acceptance by either side.
Also, while it's only one death at this point, it may (and will most likely be the first of several). And while we can argue that people have signed up for putting their lives on the line, none of these people signed up to die from a disease that spread virulently aboard a ship that they were on, especially when one of the most effective way to avoid it is to socially distance which is impossible on any kind of a ship. The argument that the former acting SecNav made comparing being under pressure from enemy attack to being under pressure from COVID-19 is both tone deaf and outright dumb.
The fact remains that the CO made a call that he deemed necessary whether others agree or not. He accepted the consequences and is recovering from the exact disease that he warned about. Monday morning quarterbacking his decision is good for discussion but won't achieve any form of conclusive acceptance by either side.
Also, while it's only one death at this point, it may (and will most likely be the first of several). And while we can argue that people have signed up for putting their lives on the line, none of these people signed up to die from a disease that spread virulently aboard a ship that they were on, especially when one of the most effective way to avoid it is to socially distance which is impossible on any kind of a ship. The argument that the former acting SecNav made comparing being under pressure from enemy attack to being under pressure from COVID-19 is both tone deaf and outright dumb.
What is the answer here though? Just take out the ship responsible for SE Asia? This was 8 years ago, but I know my ship on both deployments spent more time in SE Asia than is usual for a ship deployed to the Gulf because of China. I can't imagine much as changed since then and is probably worse. It's not like China gives a fuck about its people, and are probably looking at this as an opportunity to pull off whatever their plans are there, including very minor moves. Remember they think in decades, not quarter to quarter, like we do here in America.
Honestly I'd love to hear your thoughts, but this seemed to be a pissing match that ended up with the resignation of both parties. Almost like that Chappelle skit, when keeping it real goes wrong. Truthfully, I am on the CO's side here, simply because he made a stand on what he thought was best for the men under his command. But I don't think there was a good solution here, sometimes its just like that.
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Have no underlying conditions:
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Similarly, in New York, 64 percent of patients between the ages of 30 and 39 who died of the disease suffered from a preexisting condition, usually high blood pressure or diabetes. But that still leaves about a third of cases without such a possible contributing factor.
link - ( New Window )
KNOWN underlying conditions. Need to read between the lines there. What we know about health care in this country, many never go to the doctor, especially in that age group.
LOL...Is that a front flip with a 180 with this newest mental gymnastic post?
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Trying to somehow lessen the effects that COVID is having. Saying that anyone under 50 who dies from it has to have other factors to cause the death (except for a few outliers) is not only assumption, it's wrong. Then to claim that you can get away with doing drugs if you're a nuke is ridiculous on your part. It's one of the most important jobs on a ship.
You're all over the place here with nothing but subjective takes based on zero facts.
Are you serious? Even when I was in and they were kicking people out left and right for minor transgressions during the downsizing and supply of new boots was high because of the economy, there were a few nukes on my ship who popped hot for weed and they'd go on restriction and stayed in. You are talking to someone that lived it, and then you are telling me stuff you think is fact that couldn't be further from the truth.
Where are the healthy, young people dying? This isn't the Spanish flu. The problem is what your average person thinks is healthy, isn't. Just because its normal. When I talk to the average person about nutrition, it blows my mind how little they know, or what they believe is healthy is at best neutral. I bring it up because part of your duty of being in the military is to stay fit and healthy. Some don't take it seriously, and conditions have relaxed a bit due to poor retention rates.
Most people act like age is inevitable and the cause of all their woes. That is such bullshit. The older I get the difference between my health and many of my friends comes down to some exercise (especially in a non physically demanding job) and eating healthy. Go look at people that age gracefully. Look at the guys in sports who have long careers. They literally all do those two things. There are people out there that are my age and have health markers of 70 year olds. Those are personal decisions they made to do what feels good now, at the expense of later. Which honestly is crazy to me, because that later is usually an hour after you eat that food when your body is trying to process that shit you put in it.
Keep on trying to convince yourself brother...Ha
link - ( New Window )
KNOWN underlying conditions. Need to read between the lines there. What we know about health care in this country, many never go to the doctor, especially in that age group.
LOL...Is that a front flip with a 180 with this newest mental gymnastic post?
How are these mental gymnastics? Part of statistics, science, and reading comprehension in general is reading between the lines. In Italy, a country where they have socialized medicine, and preventative health is extremely important for it to work and be cost effective, they found that 99 percent of deaths had other comorbidities. You are cherry picking stats to fit your argument, not using stats to form an opinion.
Multiple times today people make some ad hominem attack on me after what I said, or just gaslighted. That is generally when I know I'm on the right path and I'm dealing with someone that has their belief set and doesn't want to change it.
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In comment 14867053 montanagiant said:
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Keep on trying to convince yourself brother...Ha
Trying to convince myself of what?
I think China could have done a way better job limiting or banning travel from their country, but it was up to the rest of the worlds leaders to take the initial info provided n act accordingly, and I think the ball was dropped by all...
Thoughts???
Great thread by the way, been following daily since the beginning, lots valuable info n a variety of opinions, really enjoyed Rocco’s early take n I believe, Mcl’s???, among others...
I just posted this a few minutes ago on the Covid thread, but it might b more apropos here...
Just a little music to lighten the mood!!! Cuz if you’re carrying a pic of chairmen Mao your not gonna make it with anyone anyhow...
Revolution - ( New Window )
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Similarly, in New York, 64 percent of patients between the ages of 30 and 39 who died of the disease suffered from a preexisting condition, usually high blood pressure or diabetes. But that still leaves about a third of cases without such a possible contributing factor.
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And the biggest preexisting condition was redefined recently to include basically half of all adults.
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Have no underlying conditions:
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Similarly, in New York, 64 percent of patients between the ages of 30 and 39 who died of the disease suffered from a preexisting condition, usually high blood pressure or diabetes. But that still leaves about a third of cases without such a possible contributing factor.
link - ( New Window )
And the biggest preexisting condition was redefined recently to include basically half of all adults.
But Zeke thinks that there is a secret condition that no one knows about in those dying because......well just because I guess
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In comment 14867089 Zeke's Alibi said:
link - ( New Window )
KNOWN underlying conditions. Need to read between the lines there. What we know about health care in this country, many never go to the doctor, especially in that age group.
LOL...Is that a front flip with a 180 with this newest mental gymnastic post?
How are these mental gymnastics? Part of statistics, science, and reading comprehension in general is reading between the lines. In Italy, a country where they have socialized medicine, and preventative health is extremely important for it to work and be cost effective, they found that 99 percent of deaths had other comorbidities. You are cherry picking stats to fit your argument, not using stats to form an opinion.
Multiple times today people make some ad hominem attack on me after what I said, or just gaslighted. That is generally when I know I'm on the right path and I'm dealing with someone that has their belief set and doesn't want to change it.
Your whole argument is based on some whacked theory you have that people don't go to Dr's so, therefore, the 30% with no conditions actually have conditions somehow.
THAT is mental gymnastics. You claim stats yet I just gave some and you twist them with some kind of bogus claim you have because you don't like the fact they blow-up your subjective agenda
Honestly I'd love to hear your thoughts, but this seemed to be a pissing match that ended up with the resignation of both parties. Almost like that Chappelle skit, when keeping it real goes wrong. Truthfully, I am on the CO's side here, simply because he made a stand on what he thought was best for the men under his command. But I don't think there was a good solution here, sometimes its just like that.
I think the question of our presence in Asia (the sea and the region in general) is a very complex issue that has many different sides. One can argue that we need to continue to maintain our carrier presence as it is our single most impressive representation of our military might. However, others have argued that we are fast approaching the days when our carriers are no longer going to be viewed with such awe from our adversaries as well as our allies. It's been argued that carriers are fast approaching the days when it is more a liability than capability without a drastic change in our tactics as well as capabilities (drones over manned aircrafts, smaller strike groups that are able to move faster, etc.)
If we were to temporarily remove the presence of one of our carriers in the region, will the Chinese or other regional players take advantage of its absence? Perhaps. Or maybe China realizes that American carrier presence continues to be nothing more than an archaic way to deter others from taking primacy of an area when even they realize that their increasing A2/AD capabilities essentially makes our carriers a symbol for American military might more than actual threat to their nation and influence in the region.
In my opinion, the danger posed by removing the TR temporarily is worth the benefits of saving lives as well as potentially shortening the timeframe that it may actually become combat ineffective. Also, the damage the removal of TR may do to regional stability or security is probably far less than has already been done in recent years by our conflicting and confusing security policies in the region with our allies and adversaries alike. What I'm saying is that the Navy definitely isn't the reason for its own diminished impact in the region, whether it's the presence of a carrier battle group or not.
Now, this is coming from a Marine and not a Navy surfaces warfare guy, so take this with a huge grain of salt. However, I'm also involved in the region academically through the Marine Corps as well as being tangentially involved professionally (as a civilian) in the intelligence field, so I feel that I have a decent grasp of the security situation in the region as well as the impact of our security policies on our adversaries and allies.
Its a very involved conversation ( and the "strategic view") of that part of the world is tipped significantly given the pandemic/global demand consequences.
But I suspect we will miller the thread even more than the diet miller already has
Its a very involved conversation ( and the "strategic view") of that part of the world is tipped significantly given the pandemic/global demand consequences.
But I suspect we will miller the thread even more than the diet miller already has
Haha...I agree. I personally don't have anything against carriers. But I also don't believe that it has nearly the impact militarily as it did just a decade ago. When you have anti-ship missiles able to reach out hundreds of miles or proliferation of drone technologies, the impact of carriers is more political and psychological than military. But as I've said earlier, I'm not a Navy guy so this is nothing more than my opinion.
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In comment 14867289 montanagiant said:
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In comment 14867089 Zeke's Alibi said:
link - ( New Window )
KNOWN underlying conditions. Need to read between the lines there. What we know about health care in this country, many never go to the doctor, especially in that age group.
LOL...Is that a front flip with a 180 with this newest mental gymnastic post?
How are these mental gymnastics? Part of statistics, science, and reading comprehension in general is reading between the lines. In Italy, a country where they have socialized medicine, and preventative health is extremely important for it to work and be cost effective, they found that 99 percent of deaths had other comorbidities. You are cherry picking stats to fit your argument, not using stats to form an opinion.
Multiple times today people make some ad hominem attack on me after what I said, or just gaslighted. That is generally when I know I'm on the right path and I'm dealing with someone that has their belief set and doesn't want to change it.
Your whole argument is based on some whacked theory you have that people don't go to Dr's so, therefore, the 30% with no conditions actually have conditions somehow.
THAT is mental gymnastics. You claim stats yet I just gave some and you twist them with some kind of bogus claim you have because you don't like the fact they blow-up your subjective agenda
Its that the 30 percent of people have conditions, but haven't been identified because they don't go to the doctor. I mean dude, do we even live in the same country? I'm 33 and I'm practically the only one I know that has a yearly physical in my friend and acquaintance group because I have the VA.
Italy found that 99 percent of people that died had a coexisting condition. In countries with socialized medicine people generally go for preventative care, and it is encouraged, because it is cheaper and keeps costs down. I know this because I worked in that industry for a bit and got extensive training on it. So what is your reason between the discrepancy in Italy and our numbers.
This isn't some fucking giant leap. It just takes a bit of critical thinking and questioning what the numbers mean and what story they are telling you.
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Id push back on the wisdom of the moment on carriers. Especially the lanes from the Straights of Hormuz to Japan
Its a very involved conversation ( and the "strategic view") of that part of the world is tipped significantly given the pandemic/global demand consequences.
But I suspect we will miller the thread even more than the diet miller already has
Haha...I agree. I personally don't have anything against carriers. But I also don't believe that it has nearly the impact militarily as it did just a decade ago. When you have anti-ship missiles able to reach out hundreds of miles or proliferation of drone technologies, the impact of carriers is more political and psychological than military. But as I've said earlier, I'm not a Navy guy so this is nothing more than my opinion.
I actually kind of wavered back in forth on whether Carriers are a giant waste of money. That was until I saw the Sea Whiz are whatever it is on the fantail in action and boy was I impressed. Also deaf, but mostly impressed. I don't expect you to divulge state secrets, but it always seemed to me that the antimissile tech was way ahead of our competitors. Sounds like that isn't necessarily the case anymore
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In comment 14867390 Bill2 said:
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Id push back on the wisdom of the moment on carriers. Especially the lanes from the Straights of Hormuz to Japan
Its a very involved conversation ( and the "strategic view") of that part of the world is tipped significantly given the pandemic/global demand consequences.
But I suspect we will miller the thread even more than the diet miller already has
Haha...I agree. I personally don't have anything against carriers. But I also don't believe that it has nearly the impact militarily as it did just a decade ago. When you have anti-ship missiles able to reach out hundreds of miles or proliferation of drone technologies, the impact of carriers is more political and psychological than military. But as I've said earlier, I'm not a Navy guy so this is nothing more than my opinion.
I actually kind of wavered back in forth on whether Carriers are a giant waste of money. That was until I saw the Sea Whiz are whatever it is on the fantail in action and boy was I impressed. Also deaf, but mostly impressed. I don't expect you to divulge state secrets, but it always seemed to me that the antimissile tech was way ahead of our competitors. Sounds like that isn't necessarily the case anymore
Yeah...I love the Phalanx CIWS system, but despite its amazing capabilities, it's limited on how many targets it can engage. Even our amphibious assault ships have the CIWS, but whenever we would traverse the Suez or the Hormuz, the Navy employed my snipers as well as the Light Armored Vehicles to provide close in defense against small crafts because the CIWS can only engage so many targets before it's overwhelmed. Now think about a coordinated attack with a number of anti-ship missiles, small crafts, and even weaponized drones, and you're going to be overwhelmed no matter how many F/A-18s or F-35s you have onboard. That's why you want to have the best defense in depth arranged with destroyers, cruisers, and frigates when it comes to carriers. And really, you don't even have to sink a carrier to make it combat ineffective. You need to just damage the deck enough for it not to be able to launch aircrafts.
And yes, the Chinese and Russians have proliferated some lethal anti-ship missiles in the past decade. It's to the point that the Marines Corps is changing its approach to amphibious operations in the future and are getting rid of it's armored capabilities.
A few thoughts went through my mind though. In the rare event the ship were attacked, if they were prepped they'd hit the areas I was responsible for. Two, I'd probably die. Three, fuck the esws pin. Somehow I'm less qualified to fight fires than people that got some meaningless signatures and took a bullshit test. I don't know if they are still doing it, but I remember a massive push for it and it was mandatory for reenlistment. Of course that has probably change as they are having trouble retaining people as is. Although that will probably change as well as the economy goes into the shitter.
China has spent tremendously on its military in the last couple decades. It will be interesting to see the world response economically from Covid 19 on China and how that impacts their spending in the future.
China has spent tremendously on its military in the last couple decades. It will be interesting to see the world response economically from Covid 19 on China and how that impacts their spending in the future.
I'm trying to think what it would be like on the ship and honestly a whole bunch of those people are probably pissed at an opportunity to just dock at Guam for a month or wherever they were. Plus God knows what they believe about COVID with such little information and the sensalization of the news networks. There is also the sentiment that you are constantly getting fucked by the Navy's big old dick. Every damn day when you are deployed, with no escape. At least shore side you can go out and get away from that shit. They saw their Captain as someone in command that was actually standing up for them, which is a rarity.
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In comment 14867323 Zeke's Alibi said:
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In comment 14867289 montanagiant said:
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In comment 14867089 Zeke's Alibi said:
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KNOWN underlying conditions. Need to read between the lines there. What we know about health care in this country, many never go to the doctor, especially in that age group.
LOL...Is that a front flip with a 180 with this newest mental gymnastic post?
How are these mental gymnastics? Part of statistics, science, and reading comprehension in general is reading between the lines. In Italy, a country where they have socialized medicine, and preventative health is extremely important for it to work and be cost effective, they found that 99 percent of deaths had other comorbidities. You are cherry picking stats to fit your argument, not using stats to form an opinion.
Multiple times today people make some ad hominem attack on me after what I said, or just gaslighted. That is generally when I know I'm on the right path and I'm dealing with someone that has their belief set and doesn't want to change it.
Your whole argument is based on some whacked theory you have that people don't go to Dr's so, therefore, the 30% with no conditions actually have conditions somehow.
THAT is mental gymnastics. You claim stats yet I just gave some and you twist them with some kind of bogus claim you have because you don't like the fact they blow-up your subjective agenda
Its that the 30 percent of people have conditions, but haven't been identified because they don't go to the doctor. I mean dude, do we even live in the same country? I'm 33 and I'm practically the only one I know that has a yearly physical in my friend and acquaintance group because I have the VA.
Italy found that 99 percent of people that died had a coexisting condition. In countries with socialized medicine people generally go for preventative care, and it is encouraged, because it is cheaper and keeps costs down. I know this because I worked in that industry for a bit and got extensive training on it. So what is your reason between the discrepancy in Italy and our numbers.
This isn't some fucking giant leap. It just takes a bit of critical thinking and questioning what the numbers mean and what story they are telling you.
Once again your doing your game of twisting factual info.
You have zero ideas if they had conditions or not. Yet you sit here and state unequivocally that they did with zero basis of anything other than this warped theory you have about people not going to a Dr when they might have a condition because you know a few people who do that.
Just like the claim, you can smoke dope as a Nuke on a carrier based on what you saw years ago and nothing comes from it.
You keep demanding stats and facts yet you present none of your own. It's getting laughable at this point
China has spent tremendously on its military in the last couple decades. It will be interesting to see the world response economically from Covid 19 on China and how that impacts their spending in the future.
I don't understand why people keep arguing that mission comes first and if you take care of your people, it's the wrong thing to do. Of course mission accomplishments come first. Nowhere, your most important job is to take care of the people you lead so that they are combat effective. No great leader ever succeeded because they put their men and women second to the mission as someone posted previously in this thread regarding some dumbassed shit like "mission first, people second."
Captain Crozier made his bed and he is lying in it, and there is nothing that will change that. However, when you blindly always put the mission ahead of the welfare of your people, you are going to fail as a leader. You practice judgement and prudence to make the call when the mission is not worth the cost of your people. That's what leaders do. Whether you agree or disagree with the Captain's decision is immaterial at this point, but spare me the shortsighted nonsense about mission always trumping the welfare of those being led.
The carrier is one node in a multilevel defense system
If you were to attack a carrier, the number of possible firepower system than could be bought against any chosen target within 24 four hours is significant.
Think of the problem as someone has to decide to attack the USA not just the carrier. Missiles, rockets, strategic bombers, submarines, bombers of all different kinds and the locales to respond from present a huge war gaming problem for any attacker.
Its part of a system not the system. If you are on one then it feels like the core of the system. If you attack its one vehicle for projecting lethal response.
all these force projection systems have pros and cons and strengths and weaknesses. And carriers have a range of missions...for some of which they are ideally suited
That's for starters.